Jacob Collier on the joy of music and improvisation | ReThinking with Adam Grant

1. 0:00 – 0:53

   Subverting expectations: rhythm games, odd meters, and the Flintstones hook

   1. JCJacob Collier0:00

      This chord progression [playing chords] is old as the hills. Like, we all, we've all heard this a million times. So the ways in which you can subvert that are incredibly fun. So the, my arrangement starts with, I think it just sort of goes [playing chords] . And you're like, "Where the hell is the time," first of all. [playing chords] And it's actually here, five. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Flintstones. Meet the Flintstones. So off, off the bat, like, I'm already subverting your, your expectation. [upbeat music]

   2. AGAdam Grant0:35

      So ladies and gentlemen, welcome Jacob Collier. [clapping]

   3. JCJacob Collier0:41

      [laughs] Oh, God.

   4. AGAdam Grant0:43

      Hope you can see what I mean now.

   5. JCJacob Collier0:45

      Good to see you. Hi, everybody. How are you? Good to see you.

   6. AGAdam Grant0:50

      So I have so many questions. [laughs]

   7. JCJacob Collier0:53

      [laughs]

2. 0:53 – 2:50

   Why the Audience Choir exists: permission, inclusion, and Jacob’s mother’s conducting model

   1. AGAdam Grant0:53

      I guess the first one is, how did The Audience Choir start?

   2. JCJacob Collier0:57

      The Audience Choir. So this is the idea that everyone in the world is a musician, in a sense. That we all have this in- sort of in- internal structure through which we can understand sound and the world, and that, given permission, people want to participate. So I think it, the, the fascination began when I was a very, very small human. I was probably about one or two years old. And my earliest memories were of sitting in a chair and looking onto a stage and watching my mother conduct orchestras. So she's this kind of legendary conductor figure. But the lessons I saw her play on stage were, were not really foundationally musical lessons. They were human lessons. It's like a leadership model, in a sense, of mass permissioning, mass inclusivity, sort of radical sense of joy and, and passion, and also contour and shape and visual cues to a sonic language. So I watched this unfold. I thought, "Oh, I see. That's what music is for." You know? And then I grew up, and I never thought I'd be a conductor. It sort of sounded stuffy to me. But then I accidentally sort of became very, very inspired by this idea that when I stand on a stage, whether there's 50 of you here or 20,000 or whatever, that actually you can apply a lot of the same logic and same principles to getting... Like, g- giving a, giving a feeling to a room, uh, in a sense. And I think the, the lesson at the heart of what my mother taught me at that age, and she, she really showed me rather than telling me, it was like, "This is a way the world can be," is in line with that quote that you're probably familiar with, which is, "People don't remember what you say, and people don't remember what you do, but people remember how you make them feel." And music has this kind of hardwire straight to the heart of the line for, for that, and I think that my mother has this cool way of just sort of wiggling into people's, like, h- sense of humor that, and, and, and frees people from their own personal shackles and brings people together. So I think the, yeah, The Audience Choir is sort of standing on the shoulders of that. But the, the trick is you don't need qualifications. You kind of just need permission, and that always kind of stuck with me.

3. 2:50 – 4:00

   The “wiggle theory”: music as a return to embodied freedom

   1. AGAdam Grant2:50

      So when you talk about people remembering how you made them feel, how, how do you want everyone to feel after they participate?

   2. JCJacob Collier2:57

      I think what I've learned is however much, however hard I try to design the feeling I want to give, it's, it's basically impossible to say, "You must feel this." Um, I don't actually think that music is inherently emotional. I think people are inherently emotional, and I think that music has really significant keys for getting into the heart of the thing. But I think maybe the feeling I would hope people to feel is a, it's like it's okay to wiggle. You know?

   3. AGAdam Grant3:21

      [laughs]

   4. JCJacob Collier3:21

      Like, it's, it's cool. You can wiggle. You... I, I, I sort of believe... It, it's, like, a very young theory. It's, like, a week old or something, but-

   5. AGAdam Grant3:28

      [laughs]

   6. JCJacob Collier3:28

      ... the wiggle theory.

   7. AGAdam Grant3:29

      [laughs]

   8. JCJacob Collier3:29

      Yeah, this idea that people are actually born to wiggle, and that we live in a straight line world. Um, and music is one of the greatest mechanisms we have of, like, remembering the feeling. "Oh, yeah, I remember this feeling of wiggling around I had as a child." We all did. And these things, I think, wake up the inherent emotional channels that are everlastingly flowing through us as people and it was just like tapping the channel and you think, "Oh, yeah, I, I, I, I, I remember that now."

   9. AGAdam Grant3:50

      Okay. I love it. So you want people to feel a sense of wiggle-tude.

   10. JCJacob Collier3:53

       Wig- wiggle-tude or wiggle-dom is the word I usually use.

   11. AGAdam Grant3:55

       Oh, that's better.

   12. JCJacob Collier3:56

       But sure, yeah.

   13. AGAdam Grant3:56

       Yeah.

   14. JCJacob Collier3:57

       Yeah.

   15. AGAdam Grant3:57

       Yeah, I'm gonna let you coin the words.

   16. JCJacob Collier3:58

       Okay. [laughs]

   17. AGAdam Grant3:59

       Um-

   18. JCJacob Collier3:59

       It's my theory.

4. 4:00 – 5:34

   Collective effervescence: choirs, shared identity, and mass remembrance

   1. AGAdam Grant4:00

      So one of the other things that, that I, I guess I noticed as, as people were participating in the choir was it looked like what Durkheim called collective effervescence.

   2. JCJacob Collier4:09

      Uh-huh.

   3. AGAdam Grant4:10

      Uh, where you get a group of people who are gathered together around a common purpose with shared energy. Um, and you feel like you're part of something larger than yourself.

   4. JCJacob Collier4:19

      Yeah. I would, I would agree. I think that's something that singing does automatically. Did any of you grow up in a, like, in a choir? Did anyone sing in a choir as a child? Oh, like, a few people. Like, the feeling of that is so memorable. It's like you're a pixel in, in a big image, and you're at peace with that. You... It's not... It's, it's not, like, a main character scenario. It's like, okay, I'm one of many people. For example, in Latvia and Estonia, two places I've recently played and where The Audience Choirs blew my mind, um, they have these, these sort of song and dance festivals where you have 40,000 people on stage and 500,000 people in the audience. And, like, all the generations of your family will come and come through this thing, and everyone will sing it. It's, it's, like, a mass remembrance, I think, is what I would call it. Like, oh, I, I remember this. This is older than all of us. This is foundational to the bone of kind of what humans are built to do. Um, like, I think that what music does is it reveals what was already there, but you need it to sort of get through.

   5. AGAdam Grant5:15

      Mm.

   6. JCJacob Collier5:15

      And I think that the collective effervescence thing is a beautiful, expensive term for it. Um, but-

   7. AGAdam Grant5:21

      [laughs] Are you saying too many syllables?

   8. JCJacob Collier5:22

      Yeah, maybe so. But, but yeah, there's, there's a gorgeousness about, about a, a group of people all being there for something that's beyond any one of those people that is just sort of commonly understood without words.

5. 5:34 – 7:10

   Supple vs. brittle audiences: creating safety for spontaneity

   1. AGAdam Grant5:34

      You said in Latvia and Estonia, The Audience Choirs blew your mind.

   2. JCJacob Collier5:37

      They did, yeah.

   3. AGAdam Grant5:37

      What does that mean? Were they louder? Did they, did they wiggle more? [laughs] Like, what-

   4. JCJacob Collier5:41

      Yeah. So some audiences are really quiet and really accurate. Some audiences are really loud and wildly inaccurate. Um-

   5. AGAdam Grant5:46

      [laughs]

   6. JCJacob Collier5:47

      ... some audiences are, are more, yeah, more in tune than others. Um, but I think, I think the thing, the wiggling thing is interesting because some audiences are stiff, and I, I think stiff is a separate axis from volume. You can have a loud-

   7. AGAdam Grant5:58

      Yeah

   8. JCJacob Collier5:58

      ... stiff crowd. They're kind of boring. So the... Here's the thing with wiggling is it's, it's like, it's, it's being down to- To kind of follow something that wasn't planned. Audiences respond well to this in general, I think, um, when there's something that feels spontaneous or is spontaneous. Um, yeah, and, and then you have those... Some, some of my favorite concerts ever have been quiet audiences wh- that are really supple. And, like, I think supple is a big word for me, uh, i- in opposition to brittle. I- in, in, in, in lieu of the wiggledom sort of axis because I think that brittle th- things and people and ideas and language will strain and snap under pressure. But supple people and language and crafts and sort of mechanisms tend to bend with the weather and the conditions and the pressures and things like that. So I try and be a supple dude in general.

   9. AGAdam Grant6:47

      [laughs]

   10. JCJacob Collier6:47

       And I appreciate supple audiences, uh, where it's sort of like if something happens that's unexpected, rather than people going and sort of tightening up, people sort of go, "All right, let's, let's, let's go over there." And my job is just to create the conditions where they feel it's safe to, to come, to, to, to come with me, you know? And that's a good place to start.

   11. AGAdam Grant7:04

       You must see a lot about personalities and also the norms and culture of a room-

   12. JCJacob Collier7:08

       Mm

   13. AGAdam Grant7:08

       ... when you, when you ask them to jump in.

   14. JCJacob Collier7:10

       Yeah.

6. 7:10 – 9:07

   Reading the room: personality types, hecklers, and radical incorporation

   1. AGAdam Grant7:10

      What do you learn?

   2. JCJacob Collier7:12

      Well, music is an equalizer, and so y- you see all the personality types, but then it has this way of kind of going [whooshes] . You know, so, like, the most kind of extroverted, um, main character people will be there, and so will the people who are so shy and, and, and don't wanna participate. But-

   3. AGAdam Grant7:29

      No, actually, we stayed home. But-

   4. JCJacob Collier7:30

      Yeah. [laughs] Right. Right. Yeah, right. That, that extreme. But I think even with shyness, there are, there are levels. There, there are flavors of being shy. There, there are shy people who see everything, and they're just there, but they're seeing everything. Then there are shy people who are anxious, so they've... They're closed off. But actually it's quite loud inside their minds, you know? And then there are loud people who don't see anything-

   5. AGAdam Grant7:50

      [laughs]

   6. JCJacob Collier7:50

      ... because they can just see their own voice so big that it's, it's a pressure everything else.

   7. AGAdam Grant7:54

      Professional bloviators. Yeah.

   8. JCJacob Collier7:55

      Bloviators. Love it. Um, and, uh, and then there are, then there are energetic people who are large and see everything, and th- th- those are special audience members. Um, I think we need all these people. We need, we need this kind of diversity in, in society. In a concert, um, my hope is that there's space for e- f- s- space for all those people. But I think there are, there are moments where, you know, hecklers will shout or scream something, and there are a few ways to deal with this. Usually, the people around them are just, because they're so tasteful, they'll be like, "Uh, we just don't do that here. Sorry. Shh. What do you mind?" Um, and then if they, if they persevere or whatever, then there are ways that I can deal with things. One of my favorite ways of dealing with something like that would just be to radically incorporate their idea. So if they're shouting something that-- and then I get everyone s- to sing it, [laughs] then it's sort of like, uh, it has a funny power to sort of dissolve the person. And they actually feel really empowered and seen and then pipe down.

   9. AGAdam Grant8:44

      [laughs]

   10. JCJacob Collier8:45

       Um, so it, it's, it's like this funny job I have of constantly balancing and sort of making space for the different kinds of people who are gonna show up. And, and then also at times being like, "Okay, and actually we're not gonna..." It, like, the whole show, this, the show is not entirely call and response, right? There are moments where I go really into, into my own world so that I can earn coming back out of it. But everyone's always invited. I think that's the, that's the hope.

7. 9:07 – 10:24

   Culture in a one-night community: audiences enforcing norms and carrying songs home

   1. AGAdam Grant9:07

      So interesting. So people often say that culture is what happens when the leader isn't in the room.

   2. JCJacob Collier9:12

      Mm.

   3. AGAdam Grant9:13

      I, I, I have a slightly different take on that, which is I think culture is whether people take ownership over the values and norms when the leader-

   4. JCJacob Collier9:19

      Oh, I slowly-

   5. AGAdam Grant9:19

      ... is not in the room. And the fact that you have people saying, "Hey, we don't do that around here"-

   6. JCJacob Collier9:24

      [laughs] Yeah. Sure

   7. AGAdam Grant9:24

      ... is a sign that you've created a strong culture in a group of people who have never met each other or been in the same room together before.

   8. JCJacob Collier9:30

      It's, it's a funny thing to be proud of, but I'm proud of them. I think that the audience reflecting itself is interesting because actually I think people bring each other out, like, when given those kinds of permissions to just go. And, and that's cool to me, and I, I'm proud of that. Even the, the last show I played, um, in, in f- in, in Philly last night, there was a tunnel between the stage and the parking lot, and people walked through the tunnel. They were all singing. It ma- it made me emotional. I thought, "Wow, that's..." It's beautiful because it's not just everyone singing for themselves. It's like singing has baked within it all these life lessons. Like, you can't really sing in that way without listening and without being inclusive and without having empathy and without being curious and without a little bit of courage and a little bit of risk. And all these things that I just think are important things to, to incorporate in life, they all exist there. So it was just, like, quite a moving occasion to see these, this sort of, like, really colorfully d- you know, c- colorfully dressed army of people walking through. The, "Ah, ee, oh, boo, boo." Yeah, it was really sweet.

   9. AGAdam Grant10:23

      [laughs]

   10. JCJacob Collier10:24

       Yeah.

8. 10:24 – 13:49

   Comedy, vocal play, and building a universal sound-language (ooh/ha/forest textures)

   1. AGAdam Grant10:24

      You know, it, it made me think, just hearing, hearing people sing a few minutes ago, it made me think about, like, when you go to see stand-up comedy, um, you, you feel like you're participating 'cause you're laughing out loud.

   2. JCJacob Collier10:35

      Yeah. Yeah.

   3. AGAdam Grant10:36

      And I- after watching that, I kinda feel like having people not sing at a concert is a little bit like telling them not to laugh at comedy.

   4. JCJacob Collier10:43

      Maybe so. I've actually recognized recently in how many kind of comic things I've incorporated into my sort of artistic vernacular, especially when I'm on stage. It's almost like physical comedy. Like, for example, if we do a really quick exercise. If I go-- If we split the room into two, and I go, if you go, "Hoo."

   5. AGAdam Grant11:00

      Hoo.

   6. JCJacob Collier11:00

      Hoo.

   7. AGAdam Grant11:01

      Hoo.

   8. JCJacob Collier11:02

      [laughs]

   9. AGAdam Grant11:02

      Hoo. Hoo.

   10. JCJacob Collier11:02

       [laughs]

   11. AGAdam Grant11:05

       Hoo. Hoo. Hoo.

   12. JCJacob Collier11:08

       [laughs]

   13. AGAdam Grant11:09

       Hoo. Hoo. Hoo. Hoo.

   14. JCJacob Collier11:09

       [laughs]

   15. AGAdam Grant11:12

       Hoo.

   16. JCJacob Collier11:13

       Okay. And then, "Ha."

   17. AGAdam Grant11:16

       Ha.

   18. JCJacob Collier11:16

       Ha.

   19. AGAdam Grant11:16

       Ha.

   20. JCJacob Collier11:17

       [blows]

   21. AGAdam Grant11:19

       Ha.

   22. JCJacob Collier11:19

       [blows]

   23. AGAdam Grant11:20

       Ha.

   24. JCJacob Collier11:21

       [blows]

   25. AGAdam Grant11:21

       Ha.

   26. JCJacob Collier11:21

       [blows]

   27. AGAdam Grant11:22

       Ha.

   28. JCJacob Collier11:22

       [blows]

   29. AGAdam Grant11:22

       [laughs]

   30. JCJacob Collier11:23

       That. Something as simple as that.
9. 13:49 – 16:00

   Universals of perception: bouba/kiki, learning resolution, and “faffing” as creative method

   1. JCJacob Collier13:49

      So it, it's a language built out of, like, the, the most basic building blocks of music. So everyone, for example, in the whole world inherently understands big and small because we see it everywhere. High and low, everyone understands high and low. Everyone understands thick and thin or rough and smooth. Um, it's a bit like the bouba and kiki thing, right? Um, the idea that in every language on Earth, bouba and kiki, if unassigned to a spiky shape or a rounded shape, everyone will assume that bouba is the rounded shape and kiki is the spiky one without any prompting. Um-

   2. AGAdam Grant14:19

      I love that you're dropping psychology knowledge. [laughs]

   3. JCJacob Collier14:21

      Yeah. Well, I have to, I have to try my best. But, but, uh, there, there's something, there is something universal about some of these axes, and I think a lot about it. It's like, as we learn anything, music is a good example, our kind of, like, resolution increases. It's like, okay, 8-bit, 16, 32, 64-bit knowledge of this. And it starts with just, like, really... If I demonstrate this, like, it starts with really just, like [piano plays] everyone's heard this sound 'cause when you're a child, it's like that's your first thing, is, like [piano plays] and, and you figure out a lot of the fundamental lessons, like [piano] loud and quiet. You f- you figure it out. [piano] High and low. Like, okay, I'm mapping it out. So there are kind of, like, inherent things that when you start faffing, to use our word of earlier on, people just go-

   4. AGAdam Grant14:59

      Wait, does anyone know what the word faff means?

   5. JCJacob Collier15:01

      Ah, so interesting. I thought everyone in the world would know.

   6. AGAdam Grant15:04

      Are we doing it right now?

   7. JCJacob Collier15:05

      Yeah.

   8. SPSpeaker15:05

      [laughs]

   9. JCJacob Collier15:06

      So a faf- faff is a British word, I think, that kind of means... Like, if you faff about, it just sort of means you sort of, you kind of muck about and, and mess around and sort of, like, fill space, and it's kind of not distinct. It's, it's not, it's not necessarily very intentional. It's just sort of like, "Oh, I'm just..." You know. Like, "I'm just faffing." I'll sort of put that back. Um-

   10. SPSpeaker15:31

       [laughs]

   11. JCJacob Collier15:31

       But, but I think faffing is like... Yeah, there's something about the, the approach of just, like, [gurgles] or what even is this, that we actually really need to remember as people because especially as grownups, as adults, we get into a very rigid set of thinking that learning happens, like, when you concentrate. But if you break them down, it's like you can granularize these emotions, but they're kind of made out of bigger, simpler lumps, and you can chisel away and get to the heart of the matter. But as a musician, it's kind of my job to distill that language sonically and figure out, like, what are some interesting things to say, you know?

10. 16:00 – 17:50

    Why adults need permission to play: education, validation, and opening peripheral attention

    1. AGAdam Grant16:00

       Oh, okay. I have at least four different directions I wanna take this.

    2. JCJacob Collier16:04

       [laughs]

    3. AGAdam Grant16:04

       Um, let, let's start with the first one, which is you're giving people permission to play.

    4. JCJacob Collier16:08

       Mm.

    5. AGAdam Grant16:09

       And, uh, this is especially powerful for people who are used to being too serious and taking themselves too seriously. I just... I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about why are we so eager to play as adults, and, like, why does it, why, why does it just take this little invitation?

    6. JCJacob Collier16:23

       I think as children, we know how to play. I think as we grow older, there are a number of things that essentially straighten the wiggly line, if to extend the metaphor. Um, I think the education systems are a huge part of it. Um, the way that we are encouraged to measure ourselves against v- these very rigid systems which are suited to a v- very particular way of being in the world, a very particular kind, type of intelligence, um, and a particular positioning in culture which kind of just narrows down the wiggledom somewhat and, and makes the path appear sort of clearer and more distinct and maybe more one directional. Um, I think teachers are so important in this world because they have the power to kind of make or break an imagination, you know? And we all need people at a certain point to come along and say, "This, this thing you're doing, Adam, this, this thing is of value. You should do more of that." And I think that feels like part of my job to really understand what is it that stops people from feeling that, that freedom at, or, or at least how do I unlock it. And I think that, yeah, I, I'm con- constantly interested in what are the ways that we can get people out of their own way and, and also be more awake to each other. It's, it's like listen to, listen to each other. Don't just listen to me. It's another reason I love the choir so much, is because it f- it flips the direction of attention from, like, omni-beam to [whooshes] . It's like your periphery opens up, and I think that keeps you more likely to be surprised and s- a little bit softer, a little bit more flexible, supple, whatever.

    7. AGAdam Grant17:49

       I get the appeal of participating.

    8. JCJacob Collier17:50

       Mm.

11. 17:50 – 20:46

    Why audience choirs go viral + ‘vocal bursts’ as cross-cultural emotional communication

    1. AGAdam Grant17:50

       What I would not have expected is how often your choirs go viral. People just wanna watch these audience choirs happen. Why?

    2. JCJacob Collier17:57

       Mm. I think people see a part of themselves in the experience. Uh, I also think that right now, uh, examples of groups of people working together-

    3. AGAdam Grant18:09

       Yeah

    4. JCJacob Collier18:10

       ... are just very prudent and sort of, like- It, it, it hits a nerve. It hits a nerve for me if I, if I see a group of people unified to a cause, it's like, "Isn't that something?"

    5. AGAdam Grant18:18

       I'm also intrigued by the, the way in which you enabled people to communicate with just these sounds that don't even mean anything.

    6. JCJacob Collier18:25

       [laughs]

    7. AGAdam Grant18:25

       Like ooh and ah. And I was thinking about our version of this in psychology. So I'm gonna, uh... Don't worry, you won't have to sing. But I'm gonna ask you all-

    8. JCJacob Collier18:33

       [laughs]

    9. AGAdam Grant18:33

       ... to, to shout out in a second. Um, imagine you saw a really cute baby. What is the sound that you would make? On three. One, two, three.

    10. JCJacob Collier18:41

        Aw.

    11. AGAdam Grant18:43

        Okay. So those are called vocal bursts. Uh, they exist in every culture around the world.

    12. JCJacob Collier18:47

        [laughs]

    13. AGAdam Grant18:47

        And they're the same-

    14. JCJacob Collier18:48

        Oh, that's a vocal burst?

    15. AGAdam Grant18:49

        Yeah. That's a-

    16. JCJacob Collier18:50

        Oh, yeah

    17. AGAdam Grant18:50

        ... that's-- So you were doing vocal bursts.

    18. JCJacob Collier18:51

        Now what? I didn't know that.

    19. AGAdam Grant18:52

        Um-

    20. JCJacob Collier18:52

        Yeah

    21. AGAdam Grant18:52

        ... what's amazing, though, is that regardless of what language you speak, you make that aw sound, like, when you see something cute.

    22. JCJacob Collier18:58

        That's wild.

    23. AGAdam Grant18:59

        Um, there are others. Uh, what if you see a delicious-looking chocolate chip cookie? One, two, three, go.

    24. JCJacob Collier19:05

        Mm.

    25. AGAdam Grant19:07

        And then if you're me and you hate chocolate, you would say?

    26. JCJacob Collier19:11

        Ugh. [laughs]

    27. AGAdam Grant19:11

        Yeah. So those bursts are universal.

    28. JCJacob Collier19:13

        Wow. That's cool.

    29. AGAdam Grant19:14

        And I, I think it, it seems to me like you're unlocking other bursts that people don't know they have access to.

    30. JCJacob Collier19:19

        I-- That's a co- very cool exercise. Um, and I think-
12. 20:46 – 25:53

    Harmony vs. unison: dissonance as meaning, and tension-release as the engine of emotion

    1. AGAdam Grant20:46

       So I wanna talk a little bit about harmony.

    2. JCJacob Collier20:48

       Yeah.

    3. AGAdam Grant20:48

       Um, harmony has always been such a mystery to me in the sense that on the one hand, it's supposed to be all of us coming together. On the other hand, it's not identical sounds, it's supposed to be the pleasing arrangement of different tunes.

    4. JCJacob Collier21:01

       Yeah.

    5. AGAdam Grant21:02

       How do you think about getting people in harmony?

    6. JCJacob Collier21:04

       So this is a great question. I wanna start by making the, the, the, uh, differentiation between unison and harmony. So unison is everyone doing the same thing at once. So if everyone goes aaah. Aaah. Yeah. That's, that's unison 'cause you're all aligned. Uh, if I go aaah, aaah. Aaah. Right. We have two separate notes, each with their own thing, but they work together. So harmony is like the, the relationship between more than one thing happening at once. So now, you know, in, in music education, we're taught these concepts of major [piano playing] , for example, and minor [piano playing] , and dominant [piano playing] , and diminished [piano playing] , or augmented [piano playing] . And these have a lot of cultural kind of a connotation. Like this sound [piano playing] is, is the fairy, right?

    7. AGAdam Grant21:57

       [laughs]

    8. JCJacob Collier21:57

       Ooh. Wow. You know? [piano playing] Everyone knows the feeling. Who knows why? But this is, this is kind of built out what, of what we call an, an augmented triad. Augmented means it's got bigger, right? So this is a usual triad [piano playing] . And if I augment that triad [piano playing] , I'm stretching the top note up and it's like mm. So I th- it's almost like the eyes widening thing is really happening. You've gone [piano playing] , right? Yeah. [piano playing] Wow. Right? A diminished chord is what happens when you shrink a triad. Triad is a three-note chord. One, two, three. Diminished chord is this sound [piano playing] . So, you know, it's literally... In my mind, it's like [piano playing] .

    9. AGAdam Grant22:35

       [laughs]

    10. JCJacob Collier22:35

        You know, it's, it's... That's kind of what's going on. Um, and then you add onto that all the cultural kind of implications from nearly a thousand years of sort of recorded music history on paper, um, scores, and more recently, sort of recorded mediums. Um, you have this really, really vivid kind of language at, at play, and it's all built out of these basic intervals. [piano playing] Like, if I play this int- this interval [piano playing] , right? This is what we call a diminished second if you, if you want to give it a name. [piano playing] And this is a little bit less friendly. It's like, mm, you know what I mean? [piano playing] It's like, uh, this is what we call dissonance, right? And so you might say, "Well, that just sounds bad and the other one sounds good," but the truth is this [piano playing] can be absolutely beautiful to the point of devastating. [piano playing] There it is. [piano playing] That uh [piano playing] , right? If you control the dissonance, you have way more meaningful harmony than if you just play consonant stuff all the time. So to go back to the original point, I guess, like, baked into music and the study of it is so many of the things that make us better people, but one of them is about not being afraid of dissonance. And actually, in music, if we lean into the dissonance and learn to control it- We have this huge, broad palette that's so much more meaningful than if we just take the pretty intervals and whatever. A lot of the reason why music moves us is because of all these little tensions and releases that we experience across the, the, the, the kind of path of a, of a musical piece. And it's controlled by all these things like dissonance and consonance, and rhythm and time, and repetition. And but all these things exist in speech naturally, in a sense. And they exist in our culture, and they exist ob- ob- observationally in the world. So again, it's like, no... It's, it's, it's no surprise that music has such an impact on us.

    11. AGAdam Grant24:34

        I, I think creative tension makes beautiful music. Okay, bear me- bear with me on this. This is gonna be a weird question.

    12. JCJacob Collier24:39

        Mm.

    13. AGAdam Grant24:40

        But I actu- I actually wonder if these skills are useful in everyday life.

    14. JCJacob Collier24:43

        Mm.

    15. AGAdam Grant24:43

        So let me, let me give you an example.

    16. JCJacob Collier24:44

        Yeah.

    17. AGAdam Grant24:45

        Um, do you know the scene in Pitch Perfect, uh, where Rebel Wilson's character is asked, "Why do you have Bumper's number?"

    18. JCJacob Collier24:52

        Sure.

    19. AGAdam Grant24:53

        And she goes, "Ah."

    20. JCJacob Collier24:55

        [laughs]

    21. AGAdam Grant24:55

        And just dodges the question by-

    22. JCJacob Collier24:57

        By singing a-

    23. AGAdam Grant24:58

        ... with a musical note

    24. JCJacob Collier24:58

        ... by singing a note.

    25. AGAdam Grant24:58

        Yeah. So, um, Alison and I have this little, I guess, routine where whenever, like, she's upset about something trivial, I'll just go, "Ah."

    26. JCJacob Collier25:08

        [laughs]

    27. AGAdam Grant25:08

        Like, try to make it go away.

    28. JCJacob Collier25:09

        Yeah.

    29. AGAdam Grant25:09

        And it's actually, it's a different way of resetting the conversation than saying, "Hey, this is not a big deal."

    30. JCJacob Collier25:14

        Yeah.
13. 25:53 – 30:26

    Improvisation, calling, and ‘permission over practice’: harmonious passion and refusing lanes

    1. AGAdam Grant25:53

       So in the spring when we met, there was something that, that shocked me after you performed, which is I think it was about midnight. People started gathering and the, I think there was a band playing. And most of the professional musicians I've seen at events, when that happens, they leave. Like, "I did my gig. I'm out." And you looked so excited to sit down at the piano and just start jamming.

    2. JCJacob Collier26:16

       Yeah.

    3. AGAdam Grant26:17

       And I, I know you were out past 2:00 a.m. just improvising with amateur musicians, and it was, it was a life highlight for some of them. Why? Is the first question. [laughs] And then the second question is, it looks to me like you have, you have a calling for music, and I'd love to hear you talk about that.

    4. JCJacob Collier26:34

       Yeah. It's so easy to be an island, I think, and think, "Oh, I'm gonna do my thing and I'm gonna disappear." But especially at, in, in events like that one, I think it's, it's, it's cool to muck in, and I recognized an opportunity to just have some, have some fun. And it didn't even cross my mind to go to sleep, to be honest. Uh, there's no, no reason [laughs] beyond that. What was the second question you asked again?

    5. AGAdam Grant26:51

       So, so it looks... And you can see it now too. Like, I think you have a calling.

    6. JCJacob Collier26:55

       No, it's, it's, it's all a ruse.

    7. SPSpeaker26:57

       [laughs]

    8. JCJacob Collier26:57

       Yeah, so.

    9. AGAdam Grant26:58

       Nobody's that, that good of an actor, I'm sorry.

    10. JCJacob Collier27:00

        Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, I, I have a deep hatred for, um, and scorn for music. I think that I was brought up to see the world in a quote-unquote musical way, and that's not to say, "Da-bing, ooh, I hear the, um, car horn," and I'm like... Something, something. I don't-

    11. SPSpeaker27:15

        [laughs]

    12. JCJacob Collier27:16

        Uh, it's-

    13. AGAdam Grant27:16

        Wiggling in the street.

    14. JCJacob Collier27:17

        Yeah, yeah, music everywhere.

    15. SPSpeaker27:19

        [laughs]

    16. JCJacob Collier27:19

        It's, it's, it's sort of more-

    17. AGAdam Grant27:21

        [laughs]

    18. JCJacob Collier27:21

        I, I think it's, it's more I w- I was brought up to sort of have a, just to be awake to stuff. Like, I, I enjoyed observing the world. It's like that Lao- Lao Tzu quote. I'm, I'm trying to compete with you here, really. But there, there's, there's that beautiful quote where, where Lao Tzu says something about, you know, the, the, the, the rabbit trap or the, the rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit, and once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare, you know? And it's like, well, um, words exist because of meaning, and once you've got the meaning, you can forget the words. And then he says something like, "Well, where's the man who's forgotten words, that I may speak with him?" Or something. And I think music is one of those rare lang- languages where it, it's, it doesn't end up being rendered as, as merely the symbols. It's not... You can't really mistake the symbols for, for the thing, uh, in the same way you can with a lot of the languages that we perceive because it just is the thing. It's like, it's, it's the most verb. It's the verbiest language I know. It's like it, it, before you've thought about it, it's already got to you. It's already touched you. And, um, and that's kind of, that's kind of cool. So I think when I think about, like, a musical upbringing, I think I was brought up to be pretty energetically aware of, like, how I was feeling and where I was feeling it, and how to get the flow going. So that feels like maybe-

    19. AGAdam Grant28:33

        Yeah

    20. JCJacob Collier28:33

        ... I would even say my primary skill set over and above anything remotely technical. I think skill is overrated in general in music, and I think permission is vastly underrated. But I think that most of my skill set at this point is about creating the right kind of like internal weather conditions as best I can to just see a clear channel and, like, go in that direction clearly.

    21. AGAdam Grant28:54

        It, it looks like what psychologists like Vallacher would call harmonious passion as opposed to obsessive passion.

    22. JCJacob Collier29:00

        Well, that, that, that aligns with my musical interests.

    23. SPSpeaker29:02

        [laughs]

    24. AGAdam Grant29:02

        Yes. That's, uh, that's why I thought I would reference it.

    25. JCJacob Collier29:04

        [laughs]

    26. AGAdam Grant29:04

        But I think it also then, like, it seems to be really conducive to deliberate play as opposed to this, like, very rote, "I'm gonna force myself to do deliberate practice."

    27. JCJacob Collier29:14

        Yes. Yeah. It's, it's funny you bring up practice 'cause those of us who are musicians often get plagued by this word when we're starting out. "Have you practiced? How long do you practice for? Ba, ra, ra. Do your practice." But I think that I... Well, I was never really told to practice as a child, which was probably the best thing to ever happen to me. But I was never good at practicing or, or particularly regimented at all. Though if I was interested enough in something, I would... There would be no hesitation. I would spend 10 hours in that day exploring it. It's more that there was, there just wasn't that pressure. That I didn't, I didn't have to be good at music to get validation from my family. I just had to be good at being Jacob.

    28. AGAdam Grant29:49

        Oh.

    29. JCJacob Collier29:49

        And I, I figured pretty early on that music would play, uh, some role in that, but I never... I didn't really know what I wanted to do other than I had a sense it would have to do with music and communication. And then I-

    30. AGAdam Grant29:57

        If only you were good at either of them.
14. 30:26 – 43:11

    Success without charts: long-arc impact, authenticity, and joy as defiance

    1. AGAdam Grant30:26

       Well, th- this goes to something that you've, you've talked about that I found surprising, which is, uh, I, I understand you're the only artist to have never charted but also been twice nominated for Album of the Year.

    2. JCJacob Collier30:38

       That's true.

    3. AGAdam Grant30:38

       And you said you were proud that you've never charted.

    4. JCJacob Collier30:41

       Yeah.

    5. AGAdam Grant30:41

       Why?

    6. JCJacob Collier30:42

       That's very ticklish to me, that fact. It's just so thrilling to see that album nominated. I couldn't believe it, alongside literally the biggest artists on the planet. You know, it was Taylor and Billie and Sabrina and Chappell Roan and Charli XCX and-

    7. AGAdam Grant30:56

       And Jacob

    8. JCJacob Collier30:57

       ... and Beyoncé and Jacob [laughs] and André 3000. Um, and I just couldn't, I just couldn't believe it, and I was so proud and excited for the community of people that that album represented, which was so broad. I mean, there were musicians from every continent of the world who contributed. You know, there was Anoushka Shankar and Vadouvan Gurupal from India, and Camilo from South America, and Æspa, this Korean supergroup, and a bunch of audience choirs from Australia, they were at the heart of the album, opening and closing the album. And, and the Metropole Orkest from, from Europe, and a host of amazing gospel musicians, Coke Franklin and all of his singers, and this young student choir called the Aeolians of Oakwood University. And, and then, like, Chris Martin and Shawn Mendes and Tori Kelly and John Legend and all those people, too. So it was just a... It was such an unmakeable album. It was such an ambitious thing for me to try and do. It was exciting. And, and I'm proud in a sense, like, you know, it's weird to say I'm proud not to have charted. It's almost pretentious. But I, I would say that I'm, I'm, I'm relieved that there's a musical climate in this day and age where an artist doesn't need to chart to be recognized in that way. Because I think the metrics of success are changing so fast, and I think to measure yourself up against this super competitive music and to base the quality of your work on the popularity of your work is one of the most base misunderstandings that all of us who make creative work come up against at a certain point.

    9. AGAdam Grant32:13

       Popularity is such a poor proxy for impact.

    10. JCJacob Collier32:15

        It, it is. Exactly.

    11. AGAdam Grant32:17

        It is, it is ironic, though, given the, the widespread appeal of your work [laughs]

    12. JCJacob Collier32:21

        [laughs]

    13. AGAdam Grant32:21

        ... to not be on a chart. I'm like, do you know how many people are listening and watching?

    14. JCJacob Collier32:24

        Right. Right.

    15. AGAdam Grant32:24

        What's wrong with the chart?

    16. JCJacob Collier32:26

        Y- yeah. It's interesting, though, 'cause I think I'm excited by the idea of the long, the long arc as an artist. The idea that these kinds of relationships I'm building with my audience members now, I, I hope will last a lifetime. And I'm much more interested in that than I'm interested in, in sort of getting a bunch of reach, and it's like, "Oh, I reached lots of people." It's like, to what end, you know? Did you, did you engage them or did you move them? And then, then the question becomes, well, how do you move someone? What's the difference between moving someone and engaging someone? And I think the only real way you can move someone is by being someone. You have to just be a person, like the actual person that you are, kind of like imperfections and all, a- and really show it. And, and I think that there's literally no other way of moving somebody.

    17. AGAdam Grant33:07

        All right. We're gonna go to the audience. Uh, first, a lightning round.

    18. JCJacob Collier33:09

        Cool.

    19. AGAdam Grant33:10

        You ready for this?

    20. JCJacob Collier33:10

        Yeah.

    21. AGAdam Grant33:11

        Okay. Uh, who would you most wanna have dinner with?

    22. JCJacob Collier33:14

        Stevie Wonder.

    23. AGAdam Grant33:15

        That was fast. Lightning round passed.

    24. JCJacob Collier33:17

        [laughs] Thank you.

    25. AGAdam Grant33:18

        Uh, round one anyway.

    26. JCJacob Collier33:19

        [laughs]

    27. AGAdam Grant33:19

        Okay. Uh, worst advice you've ever gotten?

    28. JCJacob Collier33:21

        Uh, oh gosh. Is that a sentence?

    29. AGAdam Grant33:25

        [laughs]

    30. JCJacob Collier33:27

        Um, worst advice I've ever got is probably just to do the thing that everyone wants me to do.

Episode duration: 43:13