Jacob Collier on the joy of music and improvisation | ReThinking with Adam Grant

Jacob Collier 0:00 This chord progression [playing chords] is old as the hills. Like, we all, we've all heard this a million times. So the ways in which you can subvert that are incredibly fun. So the, my arrangement starts with, I think it just sort of goes [playing chords] . And you're like, "Where the hell is the time," first of all. [playing chords] And it's actually here, five. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Flintstones. Meet the Flintstones. So off, off the bat, like, I'm already subverting your, your expectation. [upbeat music]

Adam Grant 0:35 So ladies and gentlemen, welcome Jacob Collier. [clapping]

Jacob Collier 0:41 [laughs] Oh, God.

Adam Grant 0:43 Hope you can see what I mean now.

Jacob Collier 0:45 Good to see you. Hi, everybody. How are you? Good to see you.

Adam Grant 0:50 So I have so many questions. [laughs]

Jacob Collier 0:53 [laughs]

Adam Grant 0:53 I guess the first one is, how did The Audience Choir start?

Jacob Collier 0:57 The Audience Choir. So this is the idea that everyone in the world is a musician, in a sense. That we all have this in- sort of in- internal structure through which we can understand sound and the world, and that, given permission, people want to participate. So I think it, the, the fascination began when I was a very, very small human. I was probably about one or two years old. And my earliest memories were of sitting in a chair and looking onto a stage and watching my mother conduct orchestras. So she's this kind of legendary conductor figure. But the lessons I saw her play on stage were, were not really foundationally musical lessons. They were human lessons. It's like a leadership model, in a sense, of mass permissioning, mass inclusivity, sort of radical sense of joy and, and passion, and also contour and shape and visual cues to a sonic language. So I watched this unfold. I thought, "Oh, I see. That's what music is for." You know? And then I grew up, and I never thought I'd be a conductor. It sort of sounded stuffy to me. But then I accidentally sort of became very, very inspired by this idea that when I stand on a stage, whether there's 50 of you here or 20,000 or whatever, that actually you can apply a lot of the same logic and same principles to getting... Like, g- giving a, giving a feeling to a room, uh, in a sense. And I think the, the lesson at the heart of what my mother taught me at that age, and she, she really showed me rather than telling me, it was like, "This is a way the world can be," is in line with that quote that you're probably familiar with, which is, "People don't remember what you say, and people don't remember what you do, but people remember how you make them feel." And music has this kind of hardwire straight to the heart of the line for, for that, and I think that my mother has this cool way of just sort of wiggling into people's, like, h- sense of humor that, and, and, and frees people from their own personal shackles and brings people together. So I think the, yeah, The Audience Choir is sort of standing on the shoulders of that. But the, the trick is you don't need qualifications. You kind of just need permission, and that always kind of stuck with me.

Adam Grant 2:50 So when you talk about people remembering how you made them feel, how, how do you want everyone to feel after they participate?

Jacob Collier 2:57 I think what I've learned is however much, however hard I try to design the feeling I want to give, it's, it's basically impossible to say, "You must feel this." Um, I don't actually think that music is inherently emotional. I think people are inherently emotional, and I think that music has really significant keys for getting into the heart of the thing. But I think maybe the feeling I would hope people to feel is a, it's like it's okay to wiggle. You know?

Adam Grant 3:21 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 3:21 Like, it's, it's cool. You can wiggle. You... I, I, I sort of believe... It, it's, like, a very young theory. It's, like, a week old or something, but-

Adam Grant 3:28 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 3:28 ... the wiggle theory.

Adam Grant 3:29 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 3:29 Yeah, this idea that people are actually born to wiggle, and that we live in a straight line world. Um, and music is one of the greatest mechanisms we have of, like, remembering the feeling. "Oh, yeah, I remember this feeling of wiggling around I had as a child." We all did. And these things, I think, wake up the inherent emotional channels that are everlastingly flowing through us as people and it was just like tapping the channel and you think, "Oh, yeah, I, I, I, I, I remember that now."

Adam Grant 3:50 Okay. I love it. So you want people to feel a sense of wiggle-tude.

Jacob Collier 3:53 Wig- wiggle-tude or wiggle-dom is the word I usually use.

Adam Grant 3:55 Oh, that's better.

Jacob Collier 3:56 But sure, yeah.

Adam Grant 3:56 Yeah.

Jacob Collier 3:57 Yeah.

Adam Grant 3:57 Yeah, I'm gonna let you coin the words.

Jacob Collier 3:58 Okay. [laughs]

Adam Grant 3:59 Um-

Jacob Collier 3:59 It's my theory.

Adam Grant 4:00 So one of the other things that, that I, I guess I noticed as, as people were participating in the choir was it looked like what Durkheim called collective effervescence.

Jacob Collier 4:09 Uh-huh.

Adam Grant 4:10 Uh, where you get a group of people who are gathered together around a common purpose with shared energy. Um, and you feel like you're part of something larger than yourself.

Jacob Collier 4:19 Yeah. I would, I would agree. I think that's something that singing does automatically. Did any of you grow up in a, like, in a choir? Did anyone sing in a choir as a child? Oh, like, a few people. Like, the feeling of that is so memorable. It's like you're a pixel in, in a big image, and you're at peace with that. You... It's not... It's, it's not, like, a main character scenario. It's like, okay, I'm one of many people. For example, in Latvia and Estonia, two places I've recently played and where The Audience Choirs blew my mind, um, they have these, these sort of song and dance festivals where you have 40,000 people on stage and 500,000 people in the audience. And, like, all the generations of your family will come and come through this thing, and everyone will sing it. It's, it's, like, a mass remembrance, I think, is what I would call it. Like, oh, I, I remember this. This is older than all of us. This is foundational to the bone of kind of what humans are built to do. Um, like, I think that what music does is it reveals what was already there, but you need it to sort of get through.

Adam Grant 5:15 Mm.

Jacob Collier 5:15 And I think that the collective effervescence thing is a beautiful, expensive term for it. Um, but-

Adam Grant 5:21 [laughs] Are you saying too many syllables?

Jacob Collier 5:22 Yeah, maybe so. But, but yeah, there's, there's a gorgeousness about, about a, a group of people all being there for something that's beyond any one of those people that is just sort of commonly understood without words.

Adam Grant 5:34 You said in Latvia and Estonia, The Audience Choirs blew your mind.

Jacob Collier 5:37 They did, yeah.

Adam Grant 5:37 What does that mean? Were they louder? Did they, did they wiggle more? [laughs] Like, what-

Jacob Collier 5:41 Yeah. So some audiences are really quiet and really accurate. Some audiences are really loud and wildly inaccurate. Um-

Adam Grant 5:46 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 5:47 ... some audiences are, are more, yeah, more in tune than others. Um, but I think, I think the thing, the wiggling thing is interesting because some audiences are stiff, and I, I think stiff is a separate axis from volume. You can have a loud-

Adam Grant 5:58 Yeah

Jacob Collier 5:58 ... stiff crowd. They're kind of boring. So the... Here's the thing with wiggling is it's, it's like, it's, it's being down to- To kind of follow something that wasn't planned. Audiences respond well to this in general, I think, um, when there's something that feels spontaneous or is spontaneous. Um, yeah, and, and then you have those... Some, some of my favorite concerts ever have been quiet audiences wh- that are really supple. And, like, I think supple is a big word for me, uh, i- in opposition to brittle. I- in, in, in, in lieu of the wiggledom sort of axis because I think that brittle th- things and people and ideas and language will strain and snap under pressure. But supple people and language and crafts and sort of mechanisms tend to bend with the weather and the conditions and the pressures and things like that. So I try and be a supple dude in general.

Adam Grant 6:47 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 6:47 And I appreciate supple audiences, uh, where it's sort of like if something happens that's unexpected, rather than people going and sort of tightening up, people sort of go, "All right, let's, let's, let's go over there." And my job is just to create the conditions where they feel it's safe to, to come, to, to, to come with me, you know? And that's a good place to start.

Adam Grant 7:04 You must see a lot about personalities and also the norms and culture of a room-

Jacob Collier 7:08 Mm

Adam Grant 7:08 ... when you, when you ask them to jump in.

Jacob Collier 7:10 Yeah.

Adam Grant 7:10 What do you learn?

Jacob Collier 7:12 Well, music is an equalizer, and so y- you see all the personality types, but then it has this way of kind of going [whooshes] . You know, so, like, the most kind of extroverted, um, main character people will be there, and so will the people who are so shy and, and, and don't wanna participate. But-

Adam Grant 7:29 No, actually, we stayed home. But-

Jacob Collier 7:30 Yeah. [laughs] Right. Right. Yeah, right. That, that extreme. But I think even with shyness, there are, there are levels. There, there are flavors of being shy. There, there are shy people who see everything, and they're just there, but they're seeing everything. Then there are shy people who are anxious, so they've... They're closed off. But actually it's quite loud inside their minds, you know? And then there are loud people who don't see anything-

Adam Grant 7:50 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 7:50 ... because they can just see their own voice so big that it's, it's a pressure everything else.

Adam Grant 7:54 Professional bloviators. Yeah.

Jacob Collier 7:55 Bloviators. Love it. Um, and, uh, and then there are, then there are energetic people who are large and see everything, and th- th- those are special audience members. Um, I think we need all these people. We need, we need this kind of diversity in, in society. In a concert, um, my hope is that there's space for e- f- s- space for all those people. But I think there are, there are moments where, you know, hecklers will shout or scream something, and there are a few ways to deal with this. Usually, the people around them are just, because they're so tasteful, they'll be like, "Uh, we just don't do that here. Sorry. Shh. What do you mind?" Um, and then if they, if they persevere or whatever, then there are ways that I can deal with things. One of my favorite ways of dealing with something like that would just be to radically incorporate their idea. So if they're shouting something that-- and then I get everyone s- to sing it, [laughs] then it's sort of like, uh, it has a funny power to sort of dissolve the person. And they actually feel really empowered and seen and then pipe down.

Adam Grant 8:44 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 8:45 Um, so it, it's, it's like this funny job I have of constantly balancing and sort of making space for the different kinds of people who are gonna show up. And, and then also at times being like, "Okay, and actually we're not gonna..." It, like, the whole show, this, the show is not entirely call and response, right? There are moments where I go really into, into my own world so that I can earn coming back out of it. But everyone's always invited. I think that's the, that's the hope.

Adam Grant 9:07 So interesting. So people often say that culture is what happens when the leader isn't in the room.

Jacob Collier 9:12 Mm.

Adam Grant 9:13 I, I, I have a slightly different take on that, which is I think culture is whether people take ownership over the values and norms when the leader-

Jacob Collier 9:19 Oh, I slowly-

Adam Grant 9:19 ... is not in the room. And the fact that you have people saying, "Hey, we don't do that around here"-

Jacob Collier 9:24 [laughs] Yeah. Sure

Adam Grant 9:24 ... is a sign that you've created a strong culture in a group of people who have never met each other or been in the same room together before.

Jacob Collier 9:30 It's, it's a funny thing to be proud of, but I'm proud of them. I think that the audience reflecting itself is interesting because actually I think people bring each other out, like, when given those kinds of permissions to just go. And, and that's cool to me, and I, I'm proud of that. Even the, the last show I played, um, in, in f- in, in Philly last night, there was a tunnel between the stage and the parking lot, and people walked through the tunnel. They were all singing. It ma- it made me emotional. I thought, "Wow, that's..." It's beautiful because it's not just everyone singing for themselves. It's like singing has baked within it all these life lessons. Like, you can't really sing in that way without listening and without being inclusive and without having empathy and without being curious and without a little bit of courage and a little bit of risk. And all these things that I just think are important things to, to incorporate in life, they all exist there. So it was just, like, quite a moving occasion to see these, this sort of, like, really colorfully d- you know, c- colorfully dressed army of people walking through. The, "Ah, ee, oh, boo, boo." Yeah, it was really sweet.

Adam Grant 10:23 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 10:24 Yeah.

Adam Grant 10:24 You know, it, it made me think, just hearing, hearing people sing a few minutes ago, it made me think about, like, when you go to see stand-up comedy, um, you, you feel like you're participating 'cause you're laughing out loud.

Jacob Collier 10:35 Yeah. Yeah.

Adam Grant 10:36 And I- after watching that, I kinda feel like having people not sing at a concert is a little bit like telling them not to laugh at comedy.

Jacob Collier 10:43 Maybe so. I've actually recognized recently in how many kind of comic things I've incorporated into my sort of artistic vernacular, especially when I'm on stage. It's almost like physical comedy. Like, for example, if we do a really quick exercise. If I go-- If we split the room into two, and I go, if you go, "Hoo."

Adam Grant 11:00 Hoo.

Jacob Collier 11:00 Hoo.

Adam Grant 11:01 Hoo.

Jacob Collier 11:02 [laughs]

Adam Grant 11:02 Hoo. Hoo.

Jacob Collier 11:02 [laughs]

Adam Grant 11:05 Hoo. Hoo. Hoo.

Jacob Collier 11:08 [laughs]

Adam Grant 11:09 Hoo. Hoo. Hoo. Hoo.

Jacob Collier 11:09 [laughs]

Adam Grant 11:12 Hoo.

Jacob Collier 11:13 Okay. And then, "Ha."

Adam Grant 11:16 Ha.

Jacob Collier 11:16 Ha.

Adam Grant 11:16 Ha.

Jacob Collier 11:17 [blows]

Adam Grant 11:19 Ha.

Jacob Collier 11:19 [blows]

Adam Grant 11:20 Ha.

Jacob Collier 11:21 [blows]

Adam Grant 11:21 Ha.

Jacob Collier 11:21 [blows]

Adam Grant 11:22 Ha.

Jacob Collier 11:22 [blows]

Adam Grant 11:22 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 11:23 That. Something as simple as that.

Adam Grant 11:25 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 11:25 All right. To, to, to continue.

Adam Grant 11:27 Ha. Hoo. Ha. Hoo. Ha. Hoo. Ha. Hoo. Hoo. Hoo. Hoo. Hoo. Hoo. Hoo. Hoo. Hoo. [laughs] Ooh. Ooh. Ooh. Ooh. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

Speaker 12:13 [choir vocalizing]

Jacob Collier 12:24 Right. So-

Speaker 12:25 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 12:25 Thank you. Thank you for obliging. [audience applauds] Um, all of that language is... Well, it has to be simple, and it's physical, and, but a lot of it comes from humor in, in a funny way. Like, it's just funny to go, "Ooh." It's funny.

Speaker 12:40 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 12:42 Um, and, and so, and, and, and when this is scaled up to, like, many thousands of people, people take all sorts of really wild liberties. Um- Like, another one of my favorite exercises is just [whistles] .

Speaker 12:56 [whistles] [laughs]

Jacob Collier 13:10 [laughs] Like, even just that. I love the sound so much.

Speaker 13:15 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 13:15 That's, that's great, everyone. Well done. Um, that sounds like a forest or something. And so-

Speaker 13:21 [laughs]

Adam Grant 13:21 Or something.

Jacob Collier 13:22 Or something.

Speaker 13:22 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 13:22 It's quite a singular sound. So, so over, over the course of, say, a minute of doing that, people start, you know, con- like, you know, c- contributing creatures of the wild, like, uh-

Speaker 13:33 [laughs]

Adam Grant 13:33 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 13:33 ... their own sort of, like their own creatures, made-up animals and stuff. Like [squawks] You know, whatever.

Speaker 13:38 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 13:38 And, and that's so fun because every time someone does something, there'll be, like, this little ripple around them of people who laugh and then participate as well. So it's like this really interesting social experiment to obs- from my pers-... I have the best seat in the house for this stuff.

Adam Grant 13:49 Yeah.

Jacob Collier 13:49 So it, it's a language built out of, like, the, the most basic building blocks of music. So everyone, for example, in the whole world inherently understands big and small because we see it everywhere. High and low, everyone understands high and low. Everyone understands thick and thin or rough and smooth. Um, it's a bit like the bouba and kiki thing, right? Um, the idea that in every language on Earth, bouba and kiki, if unassigned to a spiky shape or a rounded shape, everyone will assume that bouba is the rounded shape and kiki is the spiky one without any prompting. Um-

Adam Grant 14:19 I love that you're dropping psychology knowledge. [laughs]

Jacob Collier 14:21 Yeah. Well, I have to, I have to try my best. But, but, uh, there, there's something, there is something universal about some of these axes, and I think a lot about it. It's like, as we learn anything, music is a good example, our kind of, like, resolution increases. It's like, okay, 8-bit, 16, 32, 64-bit knowledge of this. And it starts with just, like, really... If I demonstrate this, like, it starts with really just, like [piano plays] everyone's heard this sound 'cause when you're a child, it's like that's your first thing, is, like [piano plays] and, and you figure out a lot of the fundamental lessons, like [piano] loud and quiet. You f- you figure it out. [piano] High and low. Like, okay, I'm mapping it out. So there are kind of, like, inherent things that when you start faffing, to use our word of earlier on, people just go-

Adam Grant 14:59 Wait, does anyone know what the word faff means?

Jacob Collier 15:01 Ah, so interesting. I thought everyone in the world would know.

Adam Grant 15:04 Are we doing it right now?

Jacob Collier 15:05 Yeah.

Speaker 15:05 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 15:06 So a faf- faff is a British word, I think, that kind of means... Like, if you faff about, it just sort of means you sort of, you kind of muck about and, and mess around and sort of, like, fill space, and it's kind of not distinct. It's, it's not, it's not necessarily very intentional. It's just sort of like, "Oh, I'm just..." You know. Like, "I'm just faffing." I'll sort of put that back. Um-

Speaker 15:31 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 15:31 But, but I think faffing is like... Yeah, there's something about the, the approach of just, like, [gurgles] or what even is this, that we actually really need to remember as people because especially as grownups, as adults, we get into a very rigid set of thinking that learning happens, like, when you concentrate. But if you break them down, it's like you can granularize these emotions, but they're kind of made out of bigger, simpler lumps, and you can chisel away and get to the heart of the matter. But as a musician, it's kind of my job to distill that language sonically and figure out, like, what are some interesting things to say, you know?

Adam Grant 16:00 Oh, okay. I have at least four different directions I wanna take this.

Jacob Collier 16:04 [laughs]

Adam Grant 16:04 Um, let, let's start with the first one, which is you're giving people permission to play.

Jacob Collier 16:08 Mm.

Adam Grant 16:09 And, uh, this is especially powerful for people who are used to being too serious and taking themselves too seriously. I just... I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about why are we so eager to play as adults, and, like, why does it, why, why does it just take this little invitation?

Jacob Collier 16:23 I think as children, we know how to play. I think as we grow older, there are a number of things that essentially straighten the wiggly line, if to extend the metaphor. Um, I think the education systems are a huge part of it. Um, the way that we are encouraged to measure ourselves against v- these very rigid systems which are suited to a v- very particular way of being in the world, a very particular kind, type of intelligence, um, and a particular positioning in culture which kind of just narrows down the wiggledom somewhat and, and makes the path appear sort of clearer and more distinct and maybe more one directional. Um, I think teachers are so important in this world because they have the power to kind of make or break an imagination, you know? And we all need people at a certain point to come along and say, "This, this thing you're doing, Adam, this, this thing is of value. You should do more of that." And I think that feels like part of my job to really understand what is it that stops people from feeling that, that freedom at, or, or at least how do I unlock it. And I think that, yeah, I, I'm con- constantly interested in what are the ways that we can get people out of their own way and, and also be more awake to each other. It's, it's like listen to, listen to each other. Don't just listen to me. It's another reason I love the choir so much, is because it f- it flips the direction of attention from, like, omni-beam to [whooshes] . It's like your periphery opens up, and I think that keeps you more likely to be surprised and s- a little bit softer, a little bit more flexible, supple, whatever.

Adam Grant 17:49 I get the appeal of participating.

Jacob Collier 17:50 Mm.

Adam Grant 17:50 What I would not have expected is how often your choirs go viral. People just wanna watch these audience choirs happen. Why?

Jacob Collier 17:57 Mm. I think people see a part of themselves in the experience. Uh, I also think that right now, uh, examples of groups of people working together-

Adam Grant 18:09 Yeah

Jacob Collier 18:10 ... are just very prudent and sort of, like- It, it, it hits a nerve. It hits a nerve for me if I, if I see a group of people unified to a cause, it's like, "Isn't that something?"

Adam Grant 18:18 I'm also intrigued by the, the way in which you enabled people to communicate with just these sounds that don't even mean anything.

Jacob Collier 18:25 [laughs]

Adam Grant 18:25 Like ooh and ah. And I was thinking about our version of this in psychology. So I'm gonna, uh... Don't worry, you won't have to sing. But I'm gonna ask you all-

Jacob Collier 18:33 [laughs]

Adam Grant 18:33 ... to, to shout out in a second. Um, imagine you saw a really cute baby. What is the sound that you would make? On three. One, two, three.

Jacob Collier 18:41 Aw.

Adam Grant 18:43 Okay. So those are called vocal bursts. Uh, they exist in every culture around the world.

Jacob Collier 18:47 [laughs]

Adam Grant 18:47 And they're the same-

Jacob Collier 18:48 Oh, that's a vocal burst?

Adam Grant 18:49 Yeah. That's a-

Jacob Collier 18:50 Oh, yeah

Adam Grant 18:50 ... that's-- So you were doing vocal bursts.

Jacob Collier 18:51 Now what? I didn't know that.

Adam Grant 18:52 Um-

Jacob Collier 18:52 Yeah

Adam Grant 18:52 ... what's amazing, though, is that regardless of what language you speak, you make that aw sound, like, when you see something cute.

Jacob Collier 18:58 That's wild.

Adam Grant 18:59 Um, there are others. Uh, what if you see a delicious-looking chocolate chip cookie? One, two, three, go.

Jacob Collier 19:05 Mm.

Adam Grant 19:07 And then if you're me and you hate chocolate, you would say?

Jacob Collier 19:11 Ugh. [laughs]

Adam Grant 19:11 Yeah. So those bursts are universal.

Jacob Collier 19:13 Wow. That's cool.

Adam Grant 19:14 And I, I think it, it seems to me like you're unlocking other bursts that people don't know they have access to.

Jacob Collier 19:19 I-- That's a co- very cool exercise. Um, and I think-

Adam Grant 19:22 It's the only one I have, so...

Jacob Collier 19:23 Yeah. [laughs] I, I think the... Yeah. I... S-some of them are-- Some of them like this are so common, but I think there are other ones that are... Like, the, the, the, the second tier, the, the offshoots of those with-- that are more compound or combinations of these things. Like, I think at a certain point, you'd get to music probably.

Adam Grant 19:39 Yeah, I think you would. Although-

Jacob Collier 19:40 Yeah

Adam Grant 19:40 ... you know, I'm just, I'm just watching you do this thinking, "How-- Has Jacob been reading the research on vocal bursts?"

Jacob Collier 19:45 [laughs]

Adam Grant 19:45 "How does he know to do this?"

Jacob Collier 19:47 [laughs] Right. Yeah, I d- I don't know. I, I, I think when I observe something that, that hits or lands or works with a group, I'm, I'm always like, "Ooh, I'll keep that one for later," you know? I can, I can think of specific concerts where I've done specific things for the first time. Yeah, one of these, like [whistles] things. In fact, let's, let's do it now again. [whistles] And then someone in the crowd goes [clicks] .

Adam Grant 20:09 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 20:09 [laughs] And I was like, "That's a good one." Now go, go [clicks] .

Adam Grant 20:12 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 20:12 Isn't that a cool sound? It's really, really nice. So then it's like you keep going there, and then [hushes] . [hushes] Yeah. So that in, in a big space, it's like a s- kind of psychedelic. It's kind of like you've got the ocean-

Adam Grant 20:36 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 20:36 ... you've got the rain, and you've got the, the whistling, then the animal sounds over here, and you've got this sort of stuff. It's why I love playing it in, in the round. But yeah, I, I, I'm always on the lookout for new things, and sometimes the audience gives me the best ideas.

Adam Grant 20:46 So I wanna talk a little bit about harmony.

Jacob Collier 20:48 Yeah.

Adam Grant 20:48 Um, harmony has always been such a mystery to me in the sense that on the one hand, it's supposed to be all of us coming together. On the other hand, it's not identical sounds, it's supposed to be the pleasing arrangement of different tunes.

Jacob Collier 21:01 Yeah.

Adam Grant 21:02 How do you think about getting people in harmony?

Jacob Collier 21:04 So this is a great question. I wanna start by making the, the, the, uh, differentiation between unison and harmony. So unison is everyone doing the same thing at once. So if everyone goes aaah. Aaah. Yeah. That's, that's unison 'cause you're all aligned. Uh, if I go aaah, aaah. Aaah. Right. We have two separate notes, each with their own thing, but they work together. So harmony is like the, the relationship between more than one thing happening at once. So now, you know, in, in music education, we're taught these concepts of major [piano playing] , for example, and minor [piano playing] , and dominant [piano playing] , and diminished [piano playing] , or augmented [piano playing] . And these have a lot of cultural kind of a connotation. Like this sound [piano playing] is, is the fairy, right?

Adam Grant 21:57 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 21:57 Ooh. Wow. You know? [piano playing] Everyone knows the feeling. Who knows why? But this is, this is kind of built out what, of what we call an, an augmented triad. Augmented means it's got bigger, right? So this is a usual triad [piano playing] . And if I augment that triad [piano playing] , I'm stretching the top note up and it's like mm. So I th- it's almost like the eyes widening thing is really happening. You've gone [piano playing] , right? Yeah. [piano playing] Wow. Right? A diminished chord is what happens when you shrink a triad. Triad is a three-note chord. One, two, three. Diminished chord is this sound [piano playing] . So, you know, it's literally... In my mind, it's like [piano playing] .

Adam Grant 22:35 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 22:35 You know, it's, it's... That's kind of what's going on. Um, and then you add onto that all the cultural kind of implications from nearly a thousand years of sort of recorded music history on paper, um, scores, and more recently, sort of recorded mediums. Um, you have this really, really vivid kind of language at, at play, and it's all built out of these basic intervals. [piano playing] Like, if I play this int- this interval [piano playing] , right? This is what we call a diminished second if you, if you want to give it a name. [piano playing] And this is a little bit less friendly. It's like, mm, you know what I mean? [piano playing] It's like, uh, this is what we call dissonance, right? And so you might say, "Well, that just sounds bad and the other one sounds good," but the truth is this [piano playing] can be absolutely beautiful to the point of devastating. [piano playing] There it is. [piano playing] That uh [piano playing] , right? If you control the dissonance, you have way more meaningful harmony than if you just play consonant stuff all the time. So to go back to the original point, I guess, like, baked into music and the study of it is so many of the things that make us better people, but one of them is about not being afraid of dissonance. And actually, in music, if we lean into the dissonance and learn to control it- We have this huge, broad palette that's so much more meaningful than if we just take the pretty intervals and whatever. A lot of the reason why music moves us is because of all these little tensions and releases that we experience across the, the, the, the kind of path of a, of a musical piece. And it's controlled by all these things like dissonance and consonance, and rhythm and time, and repetition. And but all these things exist in speech naturally, in a sense. And they exist in our culture, and they exist ob- ob- observationally in the world. So again, it's like, no... It's, it's, it's no surprise that music has such an impact on us.

Adam Grant 24:34 I, I think creative tension makes beautiful music. Okay, bear me- bear with me on this. This is gonna be a weird question.

Jacob Collier 24:39 Mm.

Adam Grant 24:40 But I actu- I actually wonder if these skills are useful in everyday life.

Jacob Collier 24:43 Mm.

Adam Grant 24:43 So let me, let me give you an example.

Jacob Collier 24:44 Yeah.

Adam Grant 24:45 Um, do you know the scene in Pitch Perfect, uh, where Rebel Wilson's character is asked, "Why do you have Bumper's number?"

Jacob Collier 24:52 Sure.

Adam Grant 24:53 And she goes, "Ah."

Jacob Collier 24:55 [laughs]

Adam Grant 24:55 And just dodges the question by-

Jacob Collier 24:57 By singing a-

Adam Grant 24:58 ... with a musical note

Jacob Collier 24:58 ... by singing a note.

Adam Grant 24:58 Yeah. So, um, Alison and I have this little, I guess, routine where whenever, like, she's upset about something trivial, I'll just go, "Ah."

Jacob Collier 25:08 [laughs]

Adam Grant 25:08 Like, try to make it go away.

Jacob Collier 25:09 Yeah.

Adam Grant 25:09 And it's actually, it's a different way of resetting the conversation than saying, "Hey, this is not a big deal."

Jacob Collier 25:14 Yeah.

Adam Grant 25:15 Um, I'm j- I'm just envisioning you, like, in an argument with someone and going like, "I'm, I'm sorry, could you just say, 'Hoo, hah?'"

Jacob Collier 25:21 [laughs] Yeah.

Adam Grant 25:22 Do, do you use these skills at all?

Jacob Collier 25:23 Um, I can't say I do it as on the nose as that, but I love it so much that you do that.

Adam Grant 25:27 [laughs] I told you it was gonna be a weird question.

Jacob Collier 25:29 I, I love it so much. I... The, the thing that came to my mind when you said that is those classrooms where the te- te- teach would go, [clapping] , you know, until all the kids are clapping at the same time, and then everyone's kind of got their attention. I, uh, I think there are ways of aligning people in, with such cues. But I think, I think there is a way that music can, can cut through your defenses and just re- remind you, "Oh, yeah, wait, I have a body, remember?" But yeah, that, that seems like a one with a, I'm gonna try when I get home.

Adam Grant 25:52 Try it at your own risk.

Jacob Collier 25:53 Yeah, yeah, right.

Adam Grant 25:53 So in the spring when we met, there was something that, that shocked me after you performed, which is I think it was about midnight. People started gathering and the, I think there was a band playing. And most of the professional musicians I've seen at events, when that happens, they leave. Like, "I did my gig. I'm out." And you looked so excited to sit down at the piano and just start jamming.

Jacob Collier 26:16 Yeah.

Adam Grant 26:17 And I, I know you were out past 2:00 a.m. just improvising with amateur musicians, and it was, it was a life highlight for some of them. Why? Is the first question. [laughs] And then the second question is, it looks to me like you have, you have a calling for music, and I'd love to hear you talk about that.

Jacob Collier 26:34 Yeah. It's so easy to be an island, I think, and think, "Oh, I'm gonna do my thing and I'm gonna disappear." But especially at, in, in events like that one, I think it's, it's, it's cool to muck in, and I recognized an opportunity to just have some, have some fun. And it didn't even cross my mind to go to sleep, to be honest. Uh, there's no, no reason [laughs] beyond that. What was the second question you asked again?

Adam Grant 26:51 So, so it looks... And you can see it now too. Like, I think you have a calling.

Jacob Collier 26:55 No, it's, it's, it's all a ruse.

Speaker 26:57 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 26:57 Yeah, so.

Adam Grant 26:58 Nobody's that, that good of an actor, I'm sorry.

Jacob Collier 27:00 Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, I, I have a deep hatred for, um, and scorn for music. I think that I was brought up to see the world in a quote-unquote musical way, and that's not to say, "Da-bing, ooh, I hear the, um, car horn," and I'm like... Something, something. I don't-

Speaker 27:15 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 27:16 Uh, it's-

Adam Grant 27:16 Wiggling in the street.

Jacob Collier 27:17 Yeah, yeah, music everywhere.

Speaker 27:19 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 27:19 It's, it's, it's sort of more-

Adam Grant 27:21 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 27:21 I, I think it's, it's more I w- I was brought up to sort of have a, just to be awake to stuff. Like, I, I enjoyed observing the world. It's like that Lao- Lao Tzu quote. I'm, I'm trying to compete with you here, really. But there, there's, there's that beautiful quote where, where Lao Tzu says something about, you know, the, the, the, the rabbit trap or the, the rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit, and once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare, you know? And it's like, well, um, words exist because of meaning, and once you've got the meaning, you can forget the words. And then he says something like, "Well, where's the man who's forgotten words, that I may speak with him?" Or something. And I think music is one of those rare lang- languages where it, it's, it doesn't end up being rendered as, as merely the symbols. It's not... You can't really mistake the symbols for, for the thing, uh, in the same way you can with a lot of the languages that we perceive because it just is the thing. It's like, it's, it's the most verb. It's the verbiest language I know. It's like it, it, before you've thought about it, it's already got to you. It's already touched you. And, um, and that's kind of, that's kind of cool. So I think when I think about, like, a musical upbringing, I think I was brought up to be pretty energetically aware of, like, how I was feeling and where I was feeling it, and how to get the flow going. So that feels like maybe-

Adam Grant 28:33 Yeah

Jacob Collier 28:33 ... I would even say my primary skill set over and above anything remotely technical. I think skill is overrated in general in music, and I think permission is vastly underrated. But I think that most of my skill set at this point is about creating the right kind of like internal weather conditions as best I can to just see a clear channel and, like, go in that direction clearly.

Adam Grant 28:54 It, it looks like what psychologists like Vallacher would call harmonious passion as opposed to obsessive passion.

Jacob Collier 29:00 Well, that, that, that aligns with my musical interests.

Speaker 29:02 [laughs]

Adam Grant 29:02 Yes. That's, uh, that's why I thought I would reference it.

Jacob Collier 29:04 [laughs]

Adam Grant 29:04 But I think it also then, like, it seems to be really conducive to deliberate play as opposed to this, like, very rote, "I'm gonna force myself to do deliberate practice."

Jacob Collier 29:14 Yes. Yeah. It's, it's funny you bring up practice 'cause those of us who are musicians often get plagued by this word when we're starting out. "Have you practiced? How long do you practice for? Ba, ra, ra. Do your practice." But I think that I... Well, I was never really told to practice as a child, which was probably the best thing to ever happen to me. But I was never good at practicing or, or particularly regimented at all. Though if I was interested enough in something, I would... There would be no hesitation. I would spend 10 hours in that day exploring it. It's more that there was, there just wasn't that pressure. That I didn't, I didn't have to be good at music to get validation from my family. I just had to be good at being Jacob.

Adam Grant 29:49 Oh.

Jacob Collier 29:49 And I, I figured pretty early on that music would play, uh, some role in that, but I never... I didn't really know what I wanted to do other than I had a sense it would have to do with music and communication. And then I-

Adam Grant 29:57 If only you were good at either of them.

Jacob Collier 29:59 Yeah. [laughs] I, I ended up, yeah, I ended up, uh, doing this hybrid thing- Of really incorporating so many different kinds of music and, and things. And the, the number of people who said, you know, "When are you gonna pick a lane?" You know, "What's your genre? Um, it'd be helpful if you just picked one, because then we could put you in this little box." And I was, I was always so conscious about not doing that, and it was such a deliberate kind of swerve that I'd... I, I re- I remember being like, I'm, I'm never gonna, I'm never gonna narrow my aperture in that way.

Adam Grant 30:26 Well, th- this goes to something that you've, you've talked about that I found surprising, which is, uh, I, I understand you're the only artist to have never charted but also been twice nominated for Album of the Year.

Jacob Collier 30:38 That's true.

Adam Grant 30:38 And you said you were proud that you've never charted.

Jacob Collier 30:41 Yeah.

Adam Grant 30:41 Why?

Jacob Collier 30:42 That's very ticklish to me, that fact. It's just so thrilling to see that album nominated. I couldn't believe it, alongside literally the biggest artists on the planet. You know, it was Taylor and Billie and Sabrina and Chappell Roan and Charli XCX and-

Adam Grant 30:56 And Jacob

Jacob Collier 30:57 ... and Beyoncé and Jacob [laughs] and André 3000. Um, and I just couldn't, I just couldn't believe it, and I was so proud and excited for the community of people that that album represented, which was so broad. I mean, there were musicians from every continent of the world who contributed. You know, there was Anoushka Shankar and Vadouvan Gurupal from India, and Camilo from South America, and Æspa, this Korean supergroup, and a bunch of audience choirs from Australia, they were at the heart of the album, opening and closing the album. And, and the Metropole Orkest from, from Europe, and a host of amazing gospel musicians, Coke Franklin and all of his singers, and this young student choir called the Aeolians of Oakwood University. And, and then, like, Chris Martin and Shawn Mendes and Tori Kelly and John Legend and all those people, too. So it was just a... It was such an unmakeable album. It was such an ambitious thing for me to try and do. It was exciting. And, and I'm proud in a sense, like, you know, it's weird to say I'm proud not to have charted. It's almost pretentious. But I, I would say that I'm, I'm, I'm relieved that there's a musical climate in this day and age where an artist doesn't need to chart to be recognized in that way. Because I think the metrics of success are changing so fast, and I think to measure yourself up against this super competitive music and to base the quality of your work on the popularity of your work is one of the most base misunderstandings that all of us who make creative work come up against at a certain point.

Adam Grant 32:13 Popularity is such a poor proxy for impact.

Jacob Collier 32:15 It, it is. Exactly.

Adam Grant 32:17 It is, it is ironic, though, given the, the widespread appeal of your work [laughs]

Jacob Collier 32:21 [laughs]

Adam Grant 32:21 ... to not be on a chart. I'm like, do you know how many people are listening and watching?

Jacob Collier 32:24 Right. Right.

Adam Grant 32:24 What's wrong with the chart?

Jacob Collier 32:26 Y- yeah. It's interesting, though, 'cause I think I'm excited by the idea of the long, the long arc as an artist. The idea that these kinds of relationships I'm building with my audience members now, I, I hope will last a lifetime. And I'm much more interested in that than I'm interested in, in sort of getting a bunch of reach, and it's like, "Oh, I reached lots of people." It's like, to what end, you know? Did you, did you engage them or did you move them? And then, then the question becomes, well, how do you move someone? What's the difference between moving someone and engaging someone? And I think the only real way you can move someone is by being someone. You have to just be a person, like the actual person that you are, kind of like imperfections and all, a- and really show it. And, and I think that there's literally no other way of moving somebody.

Adam Grant 33:07 All right. We're gonna go to the audience. Uh, first, a lightning round.

Jacob Collier 33:09 Cool.

Adam Grant 33:10 You ready for this?

Jacob Collier 33:10 Yeah.

Adam Grant 33:11 Okay. Uh, who would you most wanna have dinner with?

Jacob Collier 33:14 Stevie Wonder.

Adam Grant 33:15 That was fast. Lightning round passed.

Jacob Collier 33:17 [laughs] Thank you.

Adam Grant 33:18 Uh, round one anyway.

Jacob Collier 33:19 [laughs]

Adam Grant 33:19 Okay. Uh, worst advice you've ever gotten?

Jacob Collier 33:21 Uh, oh gosh. Is that a sentence?

Adam Grant 33:25 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 33:27 Um, worst advice I've ever got is probably just to do the thing that everyone wants me to do.

Adam Grant 33:31 Something you've changed your mind about or rethought lately?

Jacob Collier 33:35 That high resolution equals clarity, and it doesn't.

Adam Grant 33:39 You've elevated verbs several times-

Jacob Collier 33:41 Yeah

Adam Grant 33:42 ... tonight. Do you have something against nouns?

Speaker 33:45 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 33:46 Um, no. Noun- nouns are fine.

Adam Grant 33:49 The, the great philosopher Homer Simpson-

Jacob Collier 33:51 Uh-huh. Yeah [laughs]

Adam Grant 33:52 ... said that verbing weirds language.

Jacob Collier 33:54 What about nouning?

Adam Grant 33:55 I've never heard that verbed. [laughs]

Jacob Collier 33:59 [laughs] Touché.

Adam Grant 34:00 Okay. Uh, audience, we have some mics coming around. If you raise your hand, we will not ask you to sing. Okay. Let's go to Nicole.

Speaker 34:08 Thank you so much, Jacob.

Jacob Collier 34:09 Hi.

Speaker 34:10 Hi. I'm curious, in addition to children and babies, where else, if anywhere else, do you find inspiration for wiggliness when you look out in the world?

Jacob Collier 34:21 I mean, you see it everywhere. You see... Like, if you look at any, any place in out- in, in, in the natural world is wiggly, constantly wiggly. It's wiggly on the ground level, wiggly on the horizon, wiggly in the leaves, in the trees, in the sky, in e- Like, the, y- there aren't really any rigid lines in nature. Um, even something like bamboo will just bend with the wind, you know? So, but it all applies to life, right? Like, we all know the feeling. You can't just be slop all over the floor, like there's no form. I mean, you can if you want, but, but it's not interesting. Just as it's not interesting to be clinically perfect and grid based. So it's, it's usually, like, in the tension between the wiggly and the non-wiggly, that's, that's where the life is.

Adam Grant 34:56 I feel like I might have to cold call one or two people.

Jacob Collier 34:59 Do it.

Adam Grant 35:00 Um, is Ben Pasek here? We have another-

Speaker 35:03 [laughs]

Adam Grant 35:04 ... extremely talented musician in the audience. If you've seen The Greatest Showman or Dear Evan Hansen, this is Pasek of Pasek and Paul.

Speaker 35:11 Hi.

Adam Grant 35:11 I would love to hear the two of you talk a little bit.

Jacob Collier 35:13 Oh. Oh, it's so nice to meet you.

Speaker 35:14 Yeah, you too. I guess my question for you is how did you, how did you decide that you wanted to be the conduit of your creation? I'm, I work behind the scenes, so I write things for characters, and I kind of have-

Jacob Collier 35:28 Yeah

Speaker 35:28 ... invisibility. I'm curious when you decided or when you found that it was advantageous to be the k- the, the vessel, 'cause that's a thing that I have always resisted.

Jacob Collier 35:39 Yeah, that's a great-

Speaker 35:39 And I'm very curious as to how you-

Jacob Collier 35:40 That's a great question

Speaker 35:40 ... how you evolved.

Jacob Collier 35:42 Yeah, I don't necessarily always feel like the main character, and I, I think that even when I, when I write music... Like, for example, last year I did this arrangement of a song called Bridge Over Troubled Water, and Tori Kelly and John Legend and Yebba all sing a verse, and I don't sing a verse. I just ac- accompany their verses, and I really like that. I really like that as a, as a setup because I think that a lot of my skill set is actually more about giving context to someone to really shine than actually also being the one who has to shine. And I love shining, but- I think there's, there, there, there are, there are two sides to it. The first album I made was literally made by only me, but I don't think of it as being something I made by myself. I think of it as like everyone in my whole life was a collaborator, and all my inspirations were collaborators, and I'm just, like, extending their limbs by growing as a human. You know what I mean? It's like this constant... We're all collaborators in that way. So yeah. A- and the short answer is I think I go, I go from your side of the fence to the performer side of the fence every day, and I'm kind of okay with it.

Adam Grant 36:39 Jacob, can we send you to the keyboard for a second?

Jacob Collier 36:40 Yeah.

Adam Grant 36:41 That, that actually reminds me of something that I wanted to ask. Are you taking requests?

Jacob Collier 36:44 Y- yeah, sure. [laughs]

Adam Grant 36:46 I, I think, I, I think part of the way that you've managed that tension is by doing a lot of covers of other people's music as opposed to saying-

Jacob Collier 36:53 That's a good point

Adam Grant 36:53 ... I'm always gonna do my own thing.

Jacob Collier 36:55 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Adam Grant 36:56 And I think of all your covers, I have to say my favorite might be The Flintstones.

Jacob Collier 37:00 Oh, really? [laughs]

Adam Grant 37:00 Yeah. Can you, can you do a version of it for us?

Jacob Collier 37:02 That, I can. I mean, so I did this absolutely bananas arrangement of the Flintstones theme tune, which actually won me a Grammy.

Adam Grant 37:10 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 37:10 Um, and it's, it's so... I mean, it's obviously completely unplayable.

Adam Grant 37:15 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 37:15 Um, like truly unplayable. Um, but as a theme song, it's one of the best-

Adam Grant 37:19 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 37:19 ... 'cause it's so repetitive and strong and memorable and all this stuff. Do, do you know this song?

Speaker 37:24 Yes.

Jacob Collier 37:24 "Flintstones, meet the Flintstones."

Adam Grant 37:26 "Meet the Flintstones."

Jacob Collier 37:26 Right? Let's snap on the offbeats like this, yeah? One, two, Flintstones. Three, four. Flintstones, meet the Flintstones. They're the modern stone age family. [laughs] From the town of Bedrock, they're a place right out of history. Doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo. I don't know the words. Doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, yayo. They're very gay, yo. Gonna have a gay old time.

Adam Grant 38:01 Mm.

Jacob Collier 38:01 That's The Flintstones. [laughs]

Adam Grant 38:03 [applauds]

Jacob Collier 38:04 Yeah. It's, it's one of the more, uh, kind of capacious songs to arrange because it, it, this chord progression [playing Flintstones theme song] is old as the hills. Like we all, we've all heard this a million times. So the ways in which you can subvert that are incredibly fun. So the, my arrangement starts with, I think it sort of goes [playing Flintstones theme song] . And you're like, "Where the hell is the time," first of all. And it's actually here. Five. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Flintstones, meet the Flintstones. So off, off the bat, like I'm already subverting y- your expectation. This is one of the reasons I love arranging other people's songs because if you know a song already, then I can work with your expectation structure that exists within you already. It's like, uh, maybe a song like, um, uh, Somewhere Over the Rainbow. Do we, do we know this song? So everyone knows S- Somewhere Over the Rainbow. [playing Somewhere Over the Rainbow] It goes, "Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high." If I do that, you probably think, "Mm, something's, something's off." 'Cause it goes, "Way up high." [playing Somewhere Over the Rainbow] Right? "Way up high." But if I go, "Way up high," then you go, "That's a different color than what I'm, I'm used to." "There's a land that I heard of once in a lullaby." [playing Somewhere Over the Rainbow] Like, oh, now we're in a different world, right? What I play with is locality. It's like you were here, and now you're here, and now you're here, and now you're here. And, and you can do this in so many different ways, but yeah, I love taking a song that everyone knows and showing how far you can take it and for it still be, to be familiar to you. And I think it's something that... It was, it was my first... It was the, the first thing I did as a musician in the world was, was do this. Like I did like Isn't She Lovely, and I did, um, P.Y.T., and Don't You Worry 'Bout a Thing, and all these things. And I was harmonically irresponsible.

Adam Grant 40:12 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 40:12 You know, it has to be said.

Adam Grant 40:13 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 40:13 Like it was so far away from the song. Then I got an email from Quincy Jones, and he said, "Hey, what, what have you done-

Adam Grant 40:19 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 40:20 ... to this song, [laughs] you fool?" Um, and, and, and we, we became friends, uh, partly be- [laughs] that's kinda how it happened, actually.

Adam Grant 40:27 [laughs]

Jacob Collier 40:27 Because I was so enamored by taking the language beyond what was sort of usual, and I think that there was something about the attitude of that that Quincy thought was kind of punk. I think if I'd gone off the bat and was just like, "Okay, I'm gonna play Jacob songs only, and you're gonna listen to it," I think, I think I would've had a much harder time, um, building the trust with people, actually, because I think that I developed the trust by walking that line between the thing that people expect and don't expect. But yeah, arranging other people's music is a great place to build trust and break it.

Adam Grant 40:56 Okay, we're almost at time. The overwhelming reaction that I've had to you in the last few months is I wanna put you in every room that I go in.

Jacob Collier 41:03 [laughs] Wow.

Adam Grant 41:04 Um, and I was trying to figure out why, and I was reminded of a, a great line from Bono when he said that joy is an act of defiance.

Jacob Collier 41:12 Hmm.

Adam Grant 41:13 And the, the contrast between our, what m- some people might call dark or uncertain or turbulent times and the unapologetic joy that you bring into a room is, uh, there's something really magical about it, and I just, I w- I'd love to hear you just say a little bit about that.

Jacob Collier 41:31 Oh, well, thank you is the main thing I wanna say. Um, I do think joy is an act of defiance. I think that joy is misunderstood because I think people mistake joy for, like, cheeriness or, like, happiness or, you know? But joy, to me, is about being alive, and I think one of the things that I've learned actually most from music about life is that you can liter- music doesn't discriminate at all. You can incorporate anything in music. It can be the dirtiest, gnarliest, most disturbing, um, experience, uh, or, or the most menial, meaningless piece of fluff, you know? And it's like, cool. No questions asked. It's in the cauldron of your life, and then you get to pull out of the cauldron things that matter to you. And so I think that, I think of joy, for me, I think of joy as about vitality, like I'm feeling vital. And I think now's a good time for that because there are days all of us experiencing right now where it's harder to find that thread and think, "What are we living for, actually?" But it's always just, it, it's always just one step away, and, and sometimes it's about ah, you know? Sometimes it's about, like, that single thing, that note. It flips you out of the argument and into your life again, and that's, like, what it's all about.

Adam Grant 42:48 Thank you, Jacob.

Jacob Collier 42:49 Fantastic. Yeah.

Adam Grant 42:49 Thanks, everyone.

Jacob Collier 42:49 Thanks, everybody.

Speaker 42:50 [applauds]

Jacob Collier 42:52 That's right.

Adam Grant 42:52 So good.

Jacob Collier 42:52 Thanks a lot. [upbeat music]