Jon Batiste and Suleika Jaouad on their creative process and finding love at band camp | ReThinking

1. 0:00 – 1:31

   Cross-pollinating music and writing: creativity as energy, rhythm, and narrative

   1. JBJon Batiste0:00

      I love the idea of thinking about music as energy and as frequency.

   2. SJSuleika Jaouad0:05

      There's such an interesting cross-pollination when you collaborate with artists across different disciplines. So Jon, for example, will play me a ch- list of songs that are on, on an album and ask me how he should sequence them, and I'll say, "What is the narrative arc here?" And I'm thinking of it from a writer's mind. Sometimes I'll show Jon a draft and he'll say, "The rhythm of this paragraph or this sentence isn't landing." And that feedback is, is so eye-opening and, and expansive, and has fundamentally changed the way that I think about how to write a sentence.

   3. AGAdam Grant0:49

      [upbeat music] Oh, so excited for this conversation. Welcome Jon and Suleika.

   4. SJSuleika Jaouad0:59

      Hi, Adam. [laughs]

   5. AGAdam Grant1:00

      It's al- it's always a joy to have an Emmy winner, a Grammy winner, and me on stage.

   6. SJSuleika Jaouad1:05

      [laughs]

   7. SPSpeaker1:05

      [laughs]

   8. AGAdam Grant1:05

      Which one of these is not like the others?

   9. SJSuleika Jaouad1:10

      [laughs]

   10. AGAdam Grant1:10

       So stop, stop redirecting.

   11. SJSuleika Jaouad1:12

       [laughs]

   12. AGAdam Grant1:12

       Uh, I'm in charge here, you two.

   13. SPSpeaker1:14

       [laughs]

   14. AGAdam Grant1:14

       Listen. Um, I, I met the two of you, I think about a decade ago. Did not know that you knew each other, let alone loved each other, and the moment I found out that you were in love, it just made more sense-

   15. JBJon Batiste1:27

       Yeah

   16. AGAdam Grant1:28

       ... than I think any relationship I had, I'd seen in a long time.

   17. SJSuleika Jaouad1:30

       Hmm.

2. 1:31 – 4:04

   Band camp origin story: first impressions, awkward genius, and early connection

   1. AGAdam Grant1:31

      I think the audience needs to know how you met and fell in love.

   2. SJSuleika Jaouad1:34

      [laughs] That's easy. Two words, band camp. [laughs]

   3. SPSpeaker1:39

      [laughs]

   4. JBJon Batiste1:40

      Yeah. Band camp is, is an amazing thing. And just to let you all know here at Davos, this is a veiled advertisement for band camp.

   5. SJSuleika Jaouad1:49

      [laughs]

   6. SPSpeaker1:50

      [laughs]

   7. JBJon Batiste1:51

      We, see, we met, it was, um, first sleepaway camp that I'd ever done-

   8. SJSuleika Jaouad1:56

      Hmm

   9. JBJon Batiste1:56

      ... in Upstate New York, and I'm coming from Louisiana, so I hadn't seen snow, and I hadn't seen any of these landscapes, and these people were very different than the people in my community. And then I see this girl, and she's carrying around a huge double bass that's about twice her size.

   10. SJSuleika Jaouad2:17

       [laughs]

   11. JBJon Batiste2:18

       And she's wearing Birkenstocks.

   12. SJSuleika Jaouad2:20

       [laughs]

   13. JBJon Batiste2:20

       And she has a bunch of books, and is trekking through the, uh, the woods.

   14. SJSuleika Jaouad2:25

       [laughs]

   15. JBJon Batiste2:26

       Because Saratoga Springs and, and the Skidmore campus, where the camp was, is just completely submerged in woods. And I was like, "Whoa, where am I? And who is that?"

   16. SPSpeaker2:36

       [laughs]

   17. SJSuleika Jaouad2:37

       It was also Jon's first time ever seeing Birkenstocks.

   18. JBJon Batiste2:41

       [laughs]

   19. SJSuleika Jaouad2:41

       Which he was very confounded by. [laughs]

   20. JBJon Batiste2:44

       Well, how do you remember it?

   21. SJSuleika Jaouad2:46

       Hmm. You know, Jon had been playing the piano for about a year or two. I think I was 13. You were 14. And it was immediately obvious to me, and likely everyone else in the room, that we were in the presence of rare genius. I also remember that you were incredibly awkward.

   22. JBJon Batiste3:12

       Yeah.

   23. SJSuleika Jaouad3:12

       And very, very shy. Uh, so the biggest source of surprise, I think, to anyone who knew you back then, is to see you gracing these stages with ease and confidence and comfort. But there's a real beauty and humility to staying in touch with the people that you know, um, long before you arrive in rooms like this one.

   24. JBJon Batiste3:39

       Oh.

   25. AGAdam Grant3:39

       Well, this is, I mean, this is relationship goals right here.

   26. SJSuleika Jaouad3:42

       [laughs]

   27. SPSpeaker3:42

       [laughs]

   28. AGAdam Grant3:43

       Who has not wanted their partner to call them both a genius and extremely awkward?

   29. SJSuleika Jaouad3:47

       [laughs]

   30. AGAdam Grant3:47

       Okay. I wanna talk about the genius of t- of the two of you.
3. 4:04 – 5:54

   Seeing the artist in your partner: Jon as polymath and obsessive learner

   1. SJSuleika Jaouad4:04

      Hmm. So to describe Jon as a musician or an artist is reductive. Jon is a polymath. He is a voracious reader. Everywhere he goes he has two or three books. He came with me last week, uh, to chemo at 7:00 AM and he had two books, one called The Great Pianists by The New York Times music reviewer, um, Harold Schonberger, and then the second was The Radical King, which was a collection of edited essays put together, uh, of Martin Luther King. Not my choice of 7:00 AM hospital waiting room reading. Um, but he is someone who is a true genius, not just musically, not just when it comes to pattern recognition, not just when it comes to being a student of history. He's also a brilliant writer. Um, I call him a YouTube historian. Every night he becomes obsessed with a moment in history, an individual, and I'll wake up and find thousands of browser tabs open on my computer, uh, which is evident of whatever late-night fascination he has. But your intellect, your ability to work across so many different mediums and to master them is nothing short of breathtaking.

   2. AGAdam Grant5:42

      Okay. So you heard it here first. Your late-night YouTube binge is creatively stimulating.

   3. SJSuleika Jaouad5:49

      [laughs]

   4. SPSpeaker5:49

      [laughs]

   5. JBJon Batiste5:49

      [laughs] I love that.

   6. AGAdam Grant5:50

      All right, Jon.

   7. JBJon Batiste5:51

      Rabbit hole city.

   8. SJSuleika Jaouad5:52

      [laughs]

   9. AGAdam Grant5:52

      [laughs] What have you learned from Suleika?

4. 5:54 – 7:53

   Suleika’s “true north”: integrity, humanity, and relentless craft

   1. JBJon Batiste5:54

      Oh, my goodness. Okay, so this could be the whole panel.

   2. SJSuleika Jaouad5:57

      [laughs]

   3. JBJon Batiste5:58

      I can express the- Depth of humanity of this individual in every choice that she makes, the integrity of every choice, the purity of the intention of every choice, and how it's never forsaking the path to true north of, of, of the first intention, the pure intention of the work. It's never forsaking it for money, for fame, for any sort of accolade or, or, or trend that could come and just disrupt the signal. It's the most pure intention of anyone that I've ever seen create, and I'm talking about from legendary people who I've been in the room with in any genre of creativity. Then there's the craft. Talk about the rigor of the craft, that it, the toil of, of the craft that it takes to, to really know exactly what you're saying, exactly what you're doing, to know your stuff to the point where you just know it cold. Somebody wake you up fi- cold 6:00 AM in the morning and say, "Break down to me the thesis of your latest work." Or, "Can you tell me the philosophy behind why this is interconnected with that and why it led you to this direction?" "Yeah. Well, actually, Jon..." This is a person who has done the work. Anything you see publicly, there's been years of excavation and silent meditation and reading and research and development, and all of it's just undergirded with the deepest integrity. So I find that to be a inspiration because it's very easy if you have a, a gift to, to hone it, and I won't even say it's easy to get to a level where you're, you, you're able to express something that's very original. But many of us in these rooms can do that, but to have the other piece, the humanity, I don't... It's, it's... I could count on a, a single hand.

5. 7:53 – 9:05

   How they critique each other: workshopping vs. guarded drafts

   1. AGAdam Grant7:53

      Given the reverence that you have for each other, what is it like to critique each other's creative work?

   2. SJSuleika Jaouad7:59

      Mm.

   3. AGAdam Grant8:00

      Do you wake up in the morning and say, "I'm sorry. That's actually bad, Suleika"?

   4. SJSuleika Jaouad8:04

      Mm.

   5. AGAdam Grant8:04

      Does Jon miss? Jon, do you, do you have to tear apart any drafts?

   6. SJSuleika Jaouad8:08

      So... [laughs]

   7. AGAdam Grant8:10

      Notice the awkward pause here.

   8. SJSuleika Jaouad8:12

      [laughs]

   9. AGAdam Grant8:12

      I love it. Tell u- tell us what you really think of each other's worst work.

   10. SJSuleika Jaouad8:15

       Jon is a workshopper. He loves to collect an array of different voices and feedback, and he's able to ask questions and to pick and choose what matters to him. I'm a little bit more protective and moated around my first drafts. I show no one my work until I've taken it as far as I can. Um, that has changed in recent years, in part because of Jon's example. You know, the challenge as an artist is to hold true to what it is that you're trying to say and, and to pick your first readers, to pick your first listeners wisely. And Jon gives me advice and feedback all the time that I don't like. [laughs]

   11. AGAdam Grant9:04

       What's an example?

6. 9:05 – 10:54

   Specific notes and mutual accountability: delegate vs. focus

   1. JBJon Batiste9:05

      Okay, so I have some. I think that yous need to delegate more.

   2. SJSuleika Jaouad9:09

      Mm.

   3. AGAdam Grant9:10

      Second. [laughs]

   4. SJSuleika Jaouad9:11

      [laughs]

   5. AGAdam Grant9:11

      A lot more.

   6. SJSuleika Jaouad9:12

      It was two versus one. [laughs]

   7. JBJon Batiste9:15

      I think that you can still transmit the care and the depth of the work that you're doing and do less, but the result speaks for itself. On the other hand, I love the kind of advice that Suleika gives, and I seek out advice that's very brutally honest and contrary to what I would think. 'Cause a lot of times I'm workshopping to see what I actually believe.

   8. SJSuleika Jaouad9:39

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JBJon Batiste9:39

      And a, a good friend of mine, he will say that Jon asks 1,000 people and listens to none of them.

   10. SJSuleika Jaouad9:46

       [laughs]

   11. AGAdam Grant9:46

       [laughs]

   12. JBJon Batiste9:47

       And I, I, he t- he explained that to me, and I didn't know that it w- He was like a, it was like a mirror. I was like-

   13. SJSuleika Jaouad9:51

       Mm

   14. JBJon Batiste9:51

       ... "Oh, wow." But I will say that I listen most to Suleika's feedback because it's just, it comes from a place where she knows, obviously, me more than anybody, but she sees things in a way that is, it's not clouded by a lot of things that ultimately become superficial in the final act of creation.

   15. AGAdam Grant10:10

       Okay, let's level the playing field a little here. So Jon, you want Suleika to delegate more.

   16. SJSuleika Jaouad10:15

       Mm.

   17. AGAdam Grant10:16

       Suleika, what's your feedback for Jon? What does he need to work on creatively?

   18. SJSuleika Jaouad10:19

       Hmm. I want Jon to focus his genius more. I think one of-

   19. AGAdam Grant10:27

       I'll endorse that one, too

   20. SJSuleika Jaouad10:28

       ... the gifts of, of being able to master so many different genres and disciplines is that you do all of them, but I'd be really interested to know what would happen if Jon Batiste did one thing for an entire year.

   21. JBJon Batiste10:44

       I don't think I've ever done that before.

   22. SJSuleika Jaouad10:46

       [laughs] You ne-

   23. JBJon Batiste10:47

       Nope

   24. SJSuleika Jaouad10:47

       ... you haven't. [laughs]

   25. AGAdam Grant10:48

       And I love that this is on the record because now you're both accountable-

   26. SJSuleika Jaouad10:51

       [laughs]

   27. AGAdam Grant10:51

       ... for having to take each other's advice.

   28. SJSuleika Jaouad10:53

       [laughs]

7. 10:54 – 13:13

   Healing through private art: daily lullabies during cancer treatment

   1. AGAdam Grant10:54

      Okay, so I wanna, I wanna talk about healing. Uh, you both have been major forces for healing in the world. Uh, Suleika, literally, that's when you rose to prominence, right? Writing about the, the early stages of your experience with cancer. Uh, Jon, I think last night at the opening concert, one of the most frequent comments was, "Jon is healing us, in part by making us dance together."

   2. SJSuleika Jaouad11:18

      Mm.

   3. AGAdam Grant11:18

      Uh, talk to me about the power of music to heal and the power of writing to heal.

   4. SJSuleika Jaouad11:24

      Mm. So I'll give you one example that involves Jon. Um, three years ago, I had a recurrence. I went through a second bone marrow transplant, which involved multiple weeks in the hospital, and because of a surge in COVID and the infection risk, there was a period of time where Jon and I weren't able to be in the same room, about a week or two. Um, and Jon responded to that challenge by deciding to compose lullabies. And sending me a lullaby every single day, uh, that I could listen to on loop as a way of enveloping me with his presence and his love. And of course, not everyone has a spouse who can compose them lullabies.

   5. AGAdam Grant12:24

      Yeah, that's not fair.

   6. SJSuleika Jaouad12:25

      But what struck me about that is how, you know, everything we do requires creativity, and especially survival. Figuring out how to tap into your imagination when you're confined to a hospital room or to cell, a cell, to move beyond the confines of whatever your space, uh, is that you find yourself in requires creativity. And so I think that small act, for me, which was not public-facing, there was no goal, it wasn't part of some album project, has changed the way that I think of my own small creative acts outside of my creative work.

8. 13:13 – 15:11

   A ‘creative church’ on tour: bringing the living room to the stage

   1. JBJon Batiste13:13

      When you, you asked the question, I, I started to recall our recent tour. We went on a tour together. This is the first time that we were on stage together, last year. And we did this really... I didn't know it was possible to bring your living room on tour.

   2. SJSuleika Jaouad13:33

      [laughs]

   3. AGAdam Grant13:33

      [laughs]

   4. JBJon Batiste13:34

      But we did the closest thing that you could. We set up our k- it was basically the, the, the couch from our living room, the rug, some of the lamps, even some of the, the décor, and then we had books, and Suleika's been journaling since she was a kid, and has trunks of journals. And the show was basically reading from the journals, reading from the book, and us making music together. And that was, it felt like a creative church.

   5. SJSuleika Jaouad14:04

      Hmm.

   6. JBJon Batiste14:04

      The people that were in the audience were such a range of different experience, different, different generations, just a culmination of so many different life forces, and the energy of all the people being so focused and invested in something that feels super... Just with the stakes of everything in the world today, us hanging out in our living room, it felt so consequential. It was so deep in a way that reminded me... And I'm reminded every time we get the, the blessing to play and perform, and as a musician, when I listen to all the musicians, my peers, and also the greats who I admire, I'm always conscious of that. But this was a different... It was like, um, it was, it was a soul cleansing.

   7. SJSuleika Jaouad14:57

      Hmm.

   8. JBJon Batiste14:57

      Everybody brought their souls and, and we all cleansed our souls together. And then we walked out, and it was like, "Wow, we can just have moments like that." That was powerful. That's, to me, what brought to mind, your, your question brought to mind.

9. 15:11 – 16:11

   Art beyond entertainment: meaning-making, translation, and connection

   1. SJSuleika Jaouad15:11

      Well-

   2. AGAdam Grant15:11

      I don't think I've ever heard the word soul in Davos before.

   3. SJSuleika Jaouad15:14

      [laughs]

   4. AGAdam Grant15:16

      [laughs]

   5. SJSuleika Jaouad15:16

      You know, anyone who's read something or, or listened to a song and felt less alone, more connected, um, to anyone who's been moved, um, then you know that the arts is, is, is more than entertainment. Um, I think our artists are often translators of history, translators of the moment, torchbearers often of the future, and they're able to synthesize the human experience, be it despair or heartbreak, um, or great joy and success into something that doesn't just make sense, but allows for meaning, uh, to be taken in and, and metabolized.

10. 16:11 – 19:16

    The shared journal: letter-writing as relationship communication practice

    1. AGAdam Grant16:11

       Okay, I have to pick up on the journaling theme.

    2. JBJon Batiste16:14

       [laughs]

    3. AGAdam Grant16:14

       Jon, you mentioned that Suleika's an, an obsessive journaler.

    4. JBJon Batiste16:17

       Truly, truly.

    5. SJSuleika Jaouad16:18

       [laughs]

    6. AGAdam Grant16:19

       And of course, we know that would mean that you also have to start journaling, but you have gone farther. The two of you have a shared journal.

    7. SJSuleika Jaouad16:26

       Hmm.

    8. AGAdam Grant16:26

       What in the world is that?

    9. SJSuleika Jaouad16:28

       [laughs]

    10. JBJon Batiste16:30

        [laughs] I love the idea of communication lessons and learning how to communicate, learning how to be a better communicator. And for me, I'm oftentimes trying to think of ways to build my skill in that area. With music, ultimately, we're trying to communicate. Even if it's an, a instrumental song, we're trying to communicate, meaning making. If it's a, if it's a conversation, w- we're trying to communicate s- things that oftentimes are not possible to be fully transmitted in words, but through our inflections, through the, the, the way that we, we're able to put our ideas together, references, we can get closer. And in a relationship, we value that so much because there's so much that's on our soul, there's so much on our spirit every day. How do we figure out how to communicate that in the bustle of life?

    11. SJSuleika Jaouad17:28

        Hmm.

    12. JBJon Batiste17:28

        When everything is moving, the pace of things is, i- it's going. And there's so many significant moments, there's so many milestones, there's so many hardships. Sometimes you can be at a loss for words. And I learned from Suleika that the journal, you know, it's, it, it's, it's really a very sacred place, but it can also just be something that helps you to, to communicate, so we, we decided to start writing each other letters.

    13. SJSuleika Jaouad17:53

        Well, and I think, you know, the practice of writing letters is increasingly a lost art form. Um, and there's- benefit, especially in romantic relationships, to having a lag between what you have to say and the response. I think of, you know, Rilke's Letters to a Young Poet. There's a way in which when we're in conversation, um, we're not always able to say what it is that we want to say, and sometimes we don't even know what it is that we want to say. And when you put pen to paper, I think there's a more direct line between the subconscious, between the unsaid, um, and, and what emerges. And so because we're millennials, we weren't actually mailing each other letters.

    14. JBJon Batiste18:52

        [laughs]

    15. SJSuleika Jaouad18:53

        I would write a letter to Jon in my journal. I'd snap a photo of it and text it to him.

    16. JBJon Batiste18:58

        [laughs]

    17. SJSuleika Jaouad18:59

        He would write a letter in his and text it back to me. But I think we had conversations that we never could have had on the phone or even in person.

    18. AGAdam Grant19:08

        I don't think our audience knew they were getting marriage advice today.

    19. SJSuleika Jaouad19:11

        [laughs]

    20. AGAdam Grant19:11

        Let alone that it would be to become pen pals with your partner.

    21. SJSuleika Jaouad19:15

        [laughs]

11. 19:16 – 20:37

    Audience Q1—Co-creating ‘Bandcamp’: book, musical, and blending mediums

    1. AGAdam Grant19:16

       But I think it's time for audience questions. We can take a few. Alan Fleischman, mic is coming to you.

    2. SPSpeaker19:24

       You guys are such a beautiful couple. I- have you thought about writing a book together? I love your book. I love your music. Have you thought about taking that collection and putting it to publication?

    3. SJSuleika Jaouad19:35

       Hmm. We did start toying with the idea. I don't know if it's a book or a musical. Um, but the title came to us, called Bandcamp, because band camp I feel like is such a fun playground for, yeah, so many of the joys and challenges and the glorious awkwardness of, of coming of age. [laughs]

    4. JBJon Batiste20:04

       Yeah, Bandcamp, look out for it when, whenever it happens.

    5. SJSuleika Jaouad20:08

       [laughs]

    6. JBJon Batiste20:09

       [laughs] I, I think that would be a, a, a dream of mine. I'm gonna start with a book that I'm writing and, and Suleika will help me because I'm gonna need the help. And I'm excited about, um, Bandcamp because it is what we did on the tour, the blending of the mediums, the cross... It's, it's a cross translation. It's a translation between mediums that I'm very interested in, and I think that our relationship, it really represents very well.

    7. AGAdam Grant20:36

       A hand over here.

12. 20:37 – 23:34

    Audience Q2—Creative block: journaling that ‘doesn’t count’ and refilling the well

    1. SPSpeaker20:37

       Thank you. I'm Mina al-Oraibi from The National. You're both incredibly talented, but all of us sometimes hit a block on creating, writing, expressing yourself, so how do you deal with it?

    2. SJSuleika Jaouad20:49

       I am someone who feels blocked more often than not. Um, and the reason I think I've been an obsessive journaler my entire life is because it's the writing that doesn't count. It's a rare space, especially in our world today, where there is no audience, unless you have a very nosy mother who's reading your journals-

    3. JBJon Batiste21:17

       [laughs]

    4. SJSuleika Jaouad21:17

       ... where you get to show up as your most unedited, unvarnished self. And so often, when I don't know what to say, I begin by writing, "I don't want to write about..." And then I write into that, and inevitably, it's an indication of what I'm most curious about. Um, I think also just refilling the well outside of whatever your discipline is, for me, is always what inspires me. Listening to music, um, reading poetry out loud or going to an open mic night, um, rereading books that influenced me as a child, all of that, uh, inevitably sparks some idea or some little igniting moment that leads me to the next thing.

    5. AGAdam Grant22:23

       And Jon, we wanna hear how you get unblocked. Um, but because Suleika is too modest, uh-

    6. JBJon Batiste22:27

       [laughs]

    7. AGAdam Grant22:27

       ... if you have not read her book of Alchemy yet, it is the best guide to overcoming writer's block and all kinds of creative blocks that I've encountered. Highly recommend.

    8. JBJon Batiste22:35

       Literally about to give that advice. I would just say read Suleika's book.

    9. SJSuleika Jaouad22:40

       [laughs]

    10. JBJon Batiste22:41

        [laughs] That's the- there's, there's so many great, great lessons and, and, uh, I would highly recommend that, the Book of Alchemy.

    11. AGAdam Grant22:51

        Jon, you're a gamer. Do video games help you creatively at all?

    12. JBJon Batiste22:54

        For sure, 100%. Before I left, I was, uh, sitting on the couch. We watched some films and then, Suleika, when you went to sleep, I went and put on NBA 2K.

    13. SJSuleika Jaouad23:06

        [laughs]

    14. JBJon Batiste23:07

        And I was Steph Curry.

    15. SJSuleika Jaouad23:09

        [laughs]

    16. JBJon Batiste23:10

        'Cause I love, I just love the... I, I always would escape into a game, especially RPGs where you could become the person and live in the world through that person's eyes.

    17. SJSuleika Jaouad23:22

        Mm.

    18. JBJon Batiste23:23

        That was a beautiful thing. Something about that really is connected in some way to my music making. I couldn't explain how, though.

    19. AGAdam Grant23:31

        All right.

    20. SJSuleika Jaouad23:31

        Jon-

    21. AGAdam Grant23:31

        We have time for one more question right there. We'll do it quickly.

13. 23:34 – 25:25

    Audience Q3—Culture that heals the world: music, intention, and social movements

    1. SPSpeaker23:34

       Hi, Jon. Um, I'm Vinicius. I'm Brazilian, and I love, love, love my country. I love my culture, and you've been showing so much respect for Brazilian culture by bringing artists to the spotlight. And I want to, uh, to ask you, nowadays I work with climate and I work with that because I love my country, and I would like to ask you about healing the world with sounds and words. How do you think that we're saving the world through culture?

    2. AGAdam Grant24:04

       In 30 seconds or less, go.

    3. JBJon Batiste24:06

       Okay. Well-

    4. SJSuleika Jaouad24:07

       [laughs]

    5. JBJon Batiste24:07

       So I think about that all the time. I love the idea of thinking about music as energy and as frequency. And frequency emits intention, and it also plants the seed of intention, and that intention sprouts in your subconscious and then in your conscious mind as ideas. Ideas become things.

    6. SJSuleika Jaouad24:27

       Mm.

    7. JBJon Batiste24:27

       If you look at, you know, we had the birthday of the great Martin Luther King Jr., the civil rights movement and the music that preceded it was the soundtrack and also one of the things that gave it a life force in a different way that it would not have had without that energy frequency permeating every moment, every march, every bus ride, every protest. All of this is important, and we have a superpower in music when we view it as not only entertainment, but as a spiritual practice.

    8. AGAdam Grant24:56

       Well done. I would call the two of you a national treasure if we were in America, but we're in Europe. You are an international treasure.

    9. SJSuleika Jaouad25:02

       [laughs]

    10. AGAdam Grant25:02

        Thank you both.

    11. SJSuleika Jaouad25:02

        Thank you, Adam. Thank you. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 25:26