Re:Thinking with Adam GrantJulie Bowen on how to manage conflict between your personality and values | ReThinking
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
45 min read · 9,364 words- 0:00 – 1:25
What is an organizational psychologist?
- JBJulie Bowen
I'm very organized. I'm wondering if I have this skillset.
- AGAdam Grant
You've come to the right place. I was gonna offer to rearrange your closet.
- JBJulie Bowen
[laughs] That's... I have a feeling that's not it. You don't label the snacks in the pantry. [upbeat music] What is an organizational psychologist?
- AGAdam Grant
I could've been like a male Marie Kondo.
- JBJulie Bowen
Yeah. That's, that's what I thought. I thought, "Ooh. We're gonna talk about organizing our, our junk drawer." Do you wanna give me the one sentence, the Reader's Digest?
- AGAdam Grant
Originally, I thought my job was to make work not suck.
- JBJulie Bowen
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
And that has turned out to be really hard. So now-
- JBJulie Bowen
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... I'm on a more modest mission to make life suck less.
- JBJulie Bowen
Life, it's easier to make life suck less than making work suck less?
- AGAdam Grant
I think so, 'cause it gives you more spheres and aspects of your existence that you actually have control over.
- JBJulie Bowen
All right.
- AGAdam Grant
Maybe. I don't know. I, I think, I think another way to say this is I try to do for adults what Aliza does for parents and kids.
- JBJulie Bowen
Julie's like, "Still, still not with you."
- AGAdam Grant
Still not. [laughs]
- JBJulie Bowen
It's not terrifying even though Matt Damon and J.J. Abrams asked like really heavy questions.
- AGAdam Grant
You've done your homework, Julie.
- JBJulie Bowen
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- JBJulie Bowen
Well, she's-
- AGAdam Grant
You, you realize you're the guest-
- JBJulie Bowen
She's no joke
- AGAdam Grant
... not the host, right?
- JBJulie Bowen
No, but you have to know what you're getting into. I all of a sudden just get-
- AGAdam Grant
No, you just need to know you.
- JBJulie Bowen
No, no. No, I don't.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JBJulie Bowen
No, I don't. So how do you guys do this?
- AGAdam Grant
We don't know. We're gonna invent it as we go along. I do need to say, Julie,
- 1:25 – 4:14
Julie Bowen's career and characters
- AGAdam Grant
I feel like I know you even though I, I don't because I've been a fan since Happy Gilmore, of course. One of the defining movies of my upbringing. But I actually think I feel most attached to Carol Vessey.
- JBJulie Bowen
[gasps] Oh, okay. You won my heart.
- AGAdam Grant
I was an, I was an Ed super fan, and-
- JBJulie Bowen
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... like I still dream of buying a bowling alley and fixing it up because of that show.
- JBJulie Bowen
Okay. You just really won my heart because that was such a special show. It was such a special time. We're all still really close. Everybody met their spouses on that. We all went to each other's weddings and baby showers. So it was just such a magical time. And we were shooting in an old, literally an old like family fun center in New Jersey. We were so isolated working such long hours, but that was, that was just my chosen family at the time. I loved it, so thank you.
- AGAdam Grant
I'm so happy to hear that. There's something about the, the tone and feeling of that show that I've, I've rarely ever seen on a screen before, and I, I actually think Ted Lasso gets closer to it than anything I've seen since.
- JBJulie Bowen
Yeah, and it was an hour long. It was a dramedy. I wish they would still do things like that, [laughs] but-
- AGAdam Grant
Me too
- JBJulie Bowen
... they don't.
- AGAdam Grant
Aliza, are you a fan? Did you watch it?
- APAliza Pressman
This is terribly awkward.
- JBJulie Bowen
She has no idea what it is.
- AGAdam Grant
You haven't seen it?
- APAliza Pressman
Not true.
- JBJulie Bowen
Why would she?
- APAliza Pressman
No. I know about it, but we... Modern Family is our comfort food. I mean, everybody, her own family watches it as comfort food.
- AGAdam Grant
I feel like every character you've played, Julie, is 3D. I felt this like from, from the beginning with Happy Gilmore, that you expect a very stereotypical Hollywood story, and you think there's gonna be a perfect girl, and the guy's gonna not succeed at first, and then at the end, like they're gonna hit it off. And I felt like you always added in a layer of it might be messiness, it might be sass.
- JBJulie Bowen
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
There was always some edge or a twist, and it just, it felt more real.
- JBJulie Bowen
It was not perfect. I'm not, I'm definitely not perfect. I, oh, I do struggle with the idea of, of, you know, being an idealized feminine. And I'm very flattered that you noticed that I try to fight against that, Adam. That's very nice of you. Because there's a world in which I could just be the girlfriend or the wife, you know? And have been or, and have gotten, you know, that role, but, but I do try to make it human 'cause even the girlfriends and the wives, if they're underwritten or whatever, they still, they're still people. You gotta, you gotta play 'em like people. So I appreciate that.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I appreciate that you appreciate that.
- APAliza Pressman
Everyone's getting along too well.
- AGAdam Grant
What's the plan?
- APAliza Pressman
And what I'm thinking is it would be fun [laughs] to have-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- APAliza Pressman
... something that we disagree on to be more Adam Grant-y, but it's probably not gonna happen, so maybe we start with-
- JBJulie Bowen
Oh, we can find it.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, I disagree.
- APAliza Pressman
Really? [laughs]
- 4:14 – 10:17
How to know when it's time to quit
- AGAdam Grant
Because Julie, apparently you're a big quitter.
- JBJulie Bowen
Well, I did a podcast a few years ago called Quitters, and I quit it. At the end, I quit the podcast.
- APAliza Pressman
[laughs]
- JBJulie Bowen
I did, um, which was the right thing for me to do. I do think that there's things you just have to let go of when they're not serving you. I enjoyed the experience. I have no, no bad blood with anybody. It just wasn't... This thing that we're doing right here, it's, it's time-consuming and difficult, and it's a full-time job, and yet people act like it's like a, uh, two minutes of your day, whatever. So it w- it just wasn't fitting into my life c- post-pandemic, um, and I was going back to work like in IRL on a set. But I, I love the, I love quitting. I love saying, "Nope, I've hit my wall." There's nothing wrong with that. And that, and that I think is a benefit of getting older.
- APAliza Pressman
Mm-hmm.
- JBJulie Bowen
I think when you're younger, you f- constantly feel like you can never quit anything. And there's still things that I'm like, "I'll quit when I win," which is not exactly quitting. But knowing when it's time to walk away is I think really important.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. I fully agree so far. I wanna hear from both of you about what are your principles for when to walk away? And also, Aliza, I'm gonna ask you to do a professional diagnosis of Julie's quitting skills.
- APAliza Pressman
Well, I do love when Angela Duckworth says never quit on a bad day. I think that's a good-
- JBJulie Bowen
Yeah
- APAliza Pressman
... pro tip. But I do, I, I think it's confusing because we really wanna instill the, and this might be just my, my lens, but instill persistence as a skill-
- JBJulie Bowen
Mm-hmm
- APAliza Pressman
... for kids, and responsibility and accountability. But then we can go too far, like with everything, and then you get kids who are like, "I can't quit something," and it's not serving you or other people anymore. So I am curious about where that line is for you, Julie.
- JBJulie Bowen
Well, I'm raising three teenage boys, and they're just all had a birthday, so they're 19, 17, and 17 now. And, you know, I don't encourage them to quit new challenges. When one of them was younger, he wanted to do water polo. It's like, no you don't. That is hard. But I had him work out with a coach and, and try it a few times before he committed to this, I think it was s- uh, eight or 10-week program, and he hated it. Three days in, he got out of the pool and was like, "Nope, I am done." And that was a real battle. And I said, "No, you made a commitment. You have to do this." And I did not win that one because he was so hysterical over this and I had to l- I actually had to back away because I was always told, "No, no, no." And my mother and father was like, "If you sign up, you finish whatever it is." But I do remember signing up once for a dance class at the height of the, like, Flashdance mania, and we w- we had a dance class at school, and the teacher told me I was good. So I signed up for a real one, not a beginner one, and the day one they were doing splits and high k- and, like, spinning, and I was so out of my league, and I got in the car afterwards and sobbed and I said, "Mom, I am out of my league." She said, "We don't quit." And I was like, "This was the wrong choice. It was just wrong." And she, she did let me quit. There are times when you are wrong and it's okay. But for me, I know the question was, how do you know it's time? I think it's more of, like, a itch at first. You know, I've dated since I got divorced and I've quit quite a few people that I've dated, and to me it's about when you know, you just-- It's a, it's a gut feeling where you're like, "This-- I cannot do this long term. I have gamed it out. I've looked at all of the options." And then I really think it's important to quit the right way. So to say to somebody very earnestly, "This isn't going any further. I totally understand that it's upsetting you." To ha- let them have their feelings, to check back in, but give them space. And when my kid quit that sport, I made him write the letter to the coach because I was like, that-- You n- you never want to be somewhere and see somebody and go, [inhales sharply] cringe. And learning how to quit properly and, and q- be polite and clean up all the loose ends is, is, is-
- APAliza Pressman
Mm
- JBJulie Bowen
... not an easy skill. People wanna ghost now. It's like, "What if I just don't answer?" And that's, that's not really a good skill.
- APAliza Pressman
I love-- I was not thinking about quitting with people, but I think it's a great point. [chuckles] And I, I think that cringe that, like, s- I, I so feel it, like, when you see somebody and you're like, "The last interaction I had or the last email I did not respond to-"
- JBJulie Bowen
Mm.
- APAliza Pressman
"... I don't feel great about that." I think that's-
- JBJulie Bowen
Yeah
- APAliza Pressman
... a good test.
- JBJulie Bowen
Yeah, you don't wanna walk into a room and be like, "Oh God, I have to lie to them about why I haven't responded to their texts or why I haven't, you know, returned that email or RSVP'd to whatever." And it's not easy, but it's being a grownup to be like, "I know you're not gonna like this, or you may need to-- need time away from me, but this is what's happening."
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. So this is interesting. I'm, I'm thinking about connecting this to Angela's point about not quitting on a bad day. What I wanna know is how many bad days in a row do you have to have-
- JBJulie Bowen
Mm
- AGAdam Grant
... before it's time to quit?
- JBJulie Bowen
To me it's, it's less about the bad days and more-- I always like, are you hungry, angry, lonely or tired? You know, HALT. If you're hungry, angry, lonely or tired, it's not the time to do anything. You need to either, you know, go work out, sleep, eat, do whatever it is. And that's also, that is a great thing about being older. I really like-- And, and falling off the hormonal cliff.
- APAliza Pressman
[chuckles]
- JBJulie Bowen
Uh, I'm just like, "Oh, I have so f- so fewer of those days where I'm just pissed off or annoyed."
- APAliza Pressman
[chuckles]
- JBJulie Bowen
So I can think really calmly about stuff and go, "Yeah, that is, that's just not gonna work
- 10:17 – 16:58
Can you change others?
- JBJulie Bowen
for me." And I think accepting that you cannot change people is something that also comes with age. I think there's a lot, especially in relationships when you're younger and thinking, "But if only you'd..." And you were that person once, and then one time you-- remember you made the bed and you washed the dishes and everything was perfect. Can't you be that person again? You know, it's not hap- Stop trying to change the person. Can you accept who they are right now? And yeah, there's some fine-tuning that you ask to respect your boundaries and whatnot, but you're not gonna make someone who doesn't fly on a plane fly on a plane.
- AGAdam Grant
I am so torn on this. Aliza, do you know Sandra Murray's research?
- JBJulie Bowen
Mm-mm.
- AGAdam Grant
I love these studies. Basically you get couples early stage to talk about who they think their partners are. One of the things you can see when you compare people's self-ratings to their partner's ratings of them is you can see who sees their partner through rose-colored glasses.
- JBJulie Bowen
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
Like, somebody idealizes their partner as just something that they are not, and then the question is what happens to those couples if you follow them for months or years later? So the, the people who had these positive expectations of their partner were more likely to encourage them to move in the direction they wanted. You wanted a more organized, responsible partner. You thought they were that way. When they messed up, you weren't as harsh on them. The conclusion from the study was love is not blind, it's prescient, because if you set the right expectations you can actually cause a self-fulfilling prophecy within reason.
- APAliza Pressman
I mean, I buy the self-fulfilling prophecy, but I wonder if part of the rose-colored glasses is just about seeing-- Now I'm gonna use all these words that are gonna feel like it's because it's Adam here, but the hidden potential of that person. Like for example, and I think Julie knows this about me, but I am married to somebody who's the cleanest person in the world next to Julie. [chuckles]
- JBJulie Bowen
No, no, no, no. No.
- APAliza Pressman
[chuckles]
- JBJulie Bowen
No. I-- God love him, but y- like this and he's taking the glass and-
- APAliza Pressman
He's-
- JBJulie Bowen
... away and cleaning it. You're like, "I'm doing some-"
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- APAliza Pressman
Like it's nonstop.
- JBJulie Bowen
Yeah.
- APAliza Pressman
Now I, when-- I'm, I'm older and I met him at a later time in life, but I found that to be extraordinarily relaxing trait because I feel great about it. [chuckles]
- JBJulie Bowen
Yeah.
- APAliza Pressman
Like I'm like, "I don't have to lift a finger here." This guy loves organizing and cleaning and I love not. [chuckles]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- APAliza Pressman
So it really works out well. And I think if I had, uh, like at a younger age, I, I or he might have tried to look at that trait as, like, changeable on, on either of our ways of being. But instead, I think my glasses are rose-colored in that I appreciate the trait. And he's like, "Is this ever gonna annoy you?" Of course it's not gonna annoy me.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- APAliza Pressman
It's fantastic. [laughs] But I-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- APAliza Pressman
... I think it's a lens, but I just don't know that I buy that the lens could be rose-colored and delusional.
- JBJulie Bowen
Well, it reminded me, though, what Adam was saying. I- it kinda stuck in my craw because I thought, you know what this sounds like? Parenting. It sounds like when your kids, especially when they're younger, and you're like, "I know you hit Sally in the face-
- APAliza Pressman
Mm
- JBJulie Bowen
... 'cause the school called me, and I know that you must have been really frustrated because that's not who you are. You're not a, you're not a violent person. You don't hurt your friends." I mean, that's what it sounds like to me. [laughs] And I wanna know what Aliza thinks 'cause I, like, have mixed-
- AGAdam Grant
If only we had a parenting expert to weigh in.
- JBJulie Bowen
Exactly.
- APAliza Pressman
I do think kids, uh, like, see themselves through the lens that we see them, and if we see them as who they are, and also we're seeing the version of them that is... Again, it's like I guess you could call it rose-colored glasses, but of course they're not a violent person. There had to have been a reason. It doesn't mean you accept that. But I think it could be that it's related in that we are seeing the version of them that they can be when they are allowed to be, when somebody believes in them. It's just not trying to turn them into a different person.
- 16:58 – 20:44
How to recognize and unlock potential in others
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, so this, this raises a bigger question. Julie, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you this in multiple parts of your life. Let's think about this in dating and also in choosing your next project. Nobody is exactly who you want them to be. Like, it's true for a potential partner. It's true for a collaborator. How do you decide whether there's latent potential there to change them or help them evolve or kind of unlock something that's in them versus, no, this person is a lost cause.
- APAliza Pressman
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
No, thank you.
- JBJulie Bowen
Wow. So you're talking about at the start of something.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- JBJulie Bowen
At the beginning. I mean, I think at the beginning of a project or a relationship or, uh, you have to, I have to not go in with how do I change this? It's more what can I control? They're not changing. What can I control in this space? If it's a director who's a, who's fantastic or a director who's a nightmare, obviously the fantastic one, great. But if they are nightmarish or demanding or whatever, you know, what can I change? I only have control over me. I thought that when I was younger, like, "I can, I can get him there. I can get her there." And I still, you know where I still do that? Family. I love my family. I love them. But there's, with family, that's where maybe it's regressive, where you're having an argument with your mother or you're spiraling in the same damn spiral you've done 1,000 times, and I think, "How can I get her to understand that email and text are different in a way that doesn't inflame her and upset her and thereby bring forth this patient person who isn't gonna lose her, her mind over tech?" But with other people, I don't, I can't imagine trying to do that at this stage Do you try to do that? Does Elise, Aliza, do you try to do that?
- APAliza Pressman
I have-- I think as we get older, we have the humility to realize that we cannot change people, and so we stop and hopefully, and also with family, of course, we go back to old patterns so easily.
- JBJulie Bowen
Yeah, I think I've always been pl- I feel like I've always been playing defense, and I think-
- APAliza Pressman
Mm
- JBJulie Bowen
... Adam feels like, I'm gonna talk about Adam as if he's not here right now.
- APAliza Pressman
That's fine.
- JBJulie Bowen
I feel like-
- AGAdam Grant
My favorite thing
- JBJulie Bowen
... Adam, I'm starting to pick up that, like, where your core competency, where, which you said you came from, was work environment. Like, that feels to me like a, like a leadership role or a parenting role. Like, somebody who's in a power, power position, how do you unlock the potential of the people b- who are reporting to you or to children who you, you do have your fingers in that clay? Peer to peer, I think it's, oh, man, that's harder. That's a lot harder. I, I don't know how to do that peer to peer.
- AGAdam Grant
Much harder.
- JBJulie Bowen
Do you think that, is that accurate, do you think? What my-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- JBJulie Bowen
... my assessment of your core competency?
- AGAdam Grant
Spot on.
- JBJulie Bowen
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Yes. Yeah, and it's, it's one of the reasons that I think there's so much overlap between what Aliza studies and what I study is, yeah, whether it's a leader or a parent, you are in a position of influence.
- JBJulie Bowen
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And you have a receptive audience, more or less.
- JBJulie Bowen
Yes, you do. But when it's peer to peer, like there's sometimes, you know, you know your ninja tricks that you do in professional settings. Even if you wildly disagree with someone, you're like, "That's a great point," or, "I can totally see how you came to that." I always wanna drop that in my personal relationships, but I have discovered I have to bring it in more and more because people-- We're just getting older and people are more complex, and you can't just have big blowups and fights like you do when you were a teenager and then get back together again. You have to say, "I understand. I get it. You're doing more right than you are wrong." That's one I say to my kids
- 20:44 – 24:56
Getting people to do what you want
- JBJulie Bowen
a lot. But peer to peer, it's hard when you bring in your ninja skills and then you see it works, and you wanna be like, "Are you kidding me? I just ninja'd you. I just mind ninja'd you into cleaning the bathroom." Like, I don't wanna do that. We're peers. We're, like, in this together. You should clean the bathroom. Um-
- APAliza Pressman
Do you lose respect? [laughs]
- JBJulie Bowen
I just, it feels like I lose authenticity.
- AGAdam Grant
Because you're being a little manipulative?
- JBJulie Bowen
Because there's like, there's the thought, and instead of there then being the, like, natural speech, there's a stop and processing thing about how do I get the outcome that want from this? And then when it works, you feel like, it just, it does feel like being a boss or, or a parent, and that I resent.
- AGAdam Grant
What is the ninja technique, and who are you inflicting it on? [laughs]
- APAliza Pressman
I'm so wanting to dive into that.
- JBJulie Bowen
Adult friends and peers mostly. The ninja skills would be along the lines of things like, "That's really interesting that you're so frustrated right now. I get that. Are you open to an observation?" That kinda shit.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JBJulie Bowen
Which I do. I do that now, and I'm like, I kinda hate myself for it, but it does work.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. So we, we have to act this out.
- JBJulie Bowen
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, these are the situations that cause, I'm thinking about college roommates. Like, this is how friendships end when people-
- JBJulie Bowen
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... room together. So Aliza, I'm curious about what you would say to be more authentic and still motivate behavior change. So it sounds like getting somebody to clean the room or clean common space. Like, clean up their dishes is a common one.
- JBJulie Bowen
Ah.
- AGAdam Grant
What's your, what's your more transparent, more authentic version?
- APAliza Pressman
I'm just thinking about, because my, my oldest went off to college, Julie's oldest went off to college, yours is about to, and I do think the roommate situation is their first time of having to put, like, to practice not just being so authentic that you, like you would be in your households. Maybe the scripts are not helpful because we all recognize them and they're just like, "Oh, okay, so you've done personal work and you know how to communicate well," but it can be, like, needling because we all are aware of it now. And so now if you picture roommates going in to, um, meet each other and have a, a conversation about doing the dishes, I think they, they have to talk in advance about their expectations.
- JBJulie Bowen
Mm.
- APAliza Pressman
Because coming in with complaints or ganging up or the things that typically happen, especially with roommate situations, is ineffective. But if you chimed in as a 19-year-old, 18-year-old and you said, "You're doing more good than you are not, and I really appreciate that. And also, it'd be great if you could put your dishes away, clean them up so we don't get mice in the dorm," I still think it's not gonna go over as well as just saying like, "How can we figure out how to all live together in a way that makes us each have to give a little and take a little?" Oh my God, I keep doing this to Adam. I, like, take his phrases and then put them into our conversation. But I, I just, I, I think those scripts that, like Julie, I don't know if you think of those as a script, but we all recognize them, so I think they're just in our culture. They're such a good step to make you pause 'cause you have to think about the language that you're using. And then if you just change the language to not be so perfect, you can get to your authentic self. But I have no problem with the forced sense of pause because then you're regulated.
- JBJulie Bowen
Right. Right. I, I understand that. I, and I do agree with that. And there are other ways. You're right. Saying like, "Are you open to criticism?" is, or "Are you open to an observation?" is so therapized.
- APAliza Pressman
Right.
- JBJulie Bowen
It does say, it does say, "I'm doing the work," but it also is like alienating. And-
- APAliza Pressman
Yeah
- JBJulie Bowen
... how are two 19-year-olds gonna go into a situation, or 18-year-olds, and sort of pre-have those discussions that they don't even know they're gonna need to have?
- APAliza Pressman
Well, I, I mean, one way is because we can tell them, "How do you plan on dealing with that?" Because it's going to come up.
- 24:56 – 28:45
How different people and families handle conflict
- APAliza Pressman
I mean, I think it's kind of wild also just our different family experiences, and like Adam said something to me once that blew my mind, which was he's n- he doesn't get angry. Like, he doesn't express anger, right? Like, you don't yell at... You never lose it at that level. Am I-
- AGAdam Grant
Right
- APAliza Pressman
... am I right?
- AGAdam Grant
I don't think I've ever yelled at someone before, and in fact, one of our kids said the other day, "Stop yelling." And I, I, I think I was, I was probably talking like this instead of like I'm talking now. And I was like, "If you wanna hear yelling..."
- APAliza Pressman
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
And it was so foreign to them, and to me too, that I realized, yeah, I don't do that. I might get animated.
- JBJulie Bowen
Because you don't want to? You've never had the urge? [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I don't feel intense anger.
- JBJulie Bowen
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
I just get frustrated.
- JBJulie Bowen
Okay. What about on a, on a, just on a global scale, no matter what side of the fence you're on-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JBJulie Bowen
... you see injustices that, that are enraging.
- AGAdam Grant
I don't get enraged. I get... I don't know what I get. I get, [laughs] I get, I get maybe morally outraged a little bit, but it doesn't-
- JBJulie Bowen
Well-
- AGAdam Grant
... come out as, "Rah!" It comes out as, "This is wrong. We need to fix it."
- APAliza Pressman
I just thought that was fascinating because if you came from a family like in my family, my grandparents spoke another language, and they sounded like they were yelling all the time. And my grandfather, who's 101, still sounds like that, and I would always ask my parents, like, "What are they saying?" And they were like, "They're just saying I love you." And [laughs] the truth is-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- APAliza Pressman
... if you hear my family together, it does sound like there's just a lot of confusion between what is yelling, and what is loud, and what's effusive, and what is anger. And so I don't get as, like, I don't even hear it. But when my culturally different spouse met them, he was like, "Uh, there's, there's so much yelling." Like, it was so [laughs] shocking, and I, so I imagine for you it would be the same experience. So then going into a roommate situation, for example, or any, any situation with multiple people having, hearing different things from those feelings, I think it's fascinating. You really have to adjust.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. I, I really like your idea, Aliza, of going in and saying, [laughs] "Let's, let's discuss in advance how we're gonna handle the inevitable conflicts." And I don't know. There, there's a good body of evidence to suggest that if we can anticipate some of those likely conflicts in advance and kind of tell each other our pet peeves, that it's a little bit easier to navigate around them and also not freak out [laughs] when, when one of those things happens. So I'd, I'm inclined to be much more direct on this now, having, you know, lost a couple roommates as a college student, and I'd just say, "Hey, Julie. It drives me crazy when dirty dishes are left in the sink."
- JBJulie Bowen
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
"And I know you would never intentionally drive you crazy, and so I just wanna let you know that if you don't want me to start resenting you, and then stop liking you, and then eventually this whole situation blows up, it would probably be all in, in all of our best interests for you to not leave dirty dishes in the sink. And I would love to know what your pet peeves are so I can avoid stepping on your toes too."
- JBJulie Bowen
I mean, I cannot imagine boys having that conversation.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JBJulie Bowen
Also, well, my boys live in their own filth, so that-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JBJulie Bowen
... it is, you know, uh, it is different. And my, and my oldest who's in college, his roommate is every bit as filthy as he is, and it's disgusting. But the idea of... But you just gamed the whole thing out. It sounded almost like the nicest threat ever.
- AGAdam Grant
That's exactly the goal. I am telling you, here's a situation we both want to avoid, and, like, here's my roadmap for how you can make sure you don't accidentally lead us there.
- JBJulie Bowen
But you're assuming the other person in that case is super rational, and you know, you come across those people in work and life
- 28:45 – 33:27
Staying reasonable in conflict
- JBJulie Bowen
who they're chaos agents. They're standing in New York, they say they wanna go to Maine, but they are hitchhiking south. You know, you're like-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JBJulie Bowen
... "You, you can s- You're not doing what you said you were gonna do. You're, every action you take takes you further from your goals," and you have to go, "I'm..." That's an example of somebody that I, I try to quit very quickly. When I see people who will set up, I'm like, "You say you want this. You say you want that. You say you wanna lose weight, but you eat a sheet cake for breakfast."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JBJulie Bowen
Like, these are, that is generally a mindset that I, I can't really get into on a personal level. But professionally, you have to deal with it. If it's your roommate, you've gotta deal with it. Those people don't respond to reasonable, like, "Hey, you don't want this to happen, and I don't want this to happen." 'Cause they're like, "Maybe I do."
- APAliza Pressman
Then you deal with it. [laughs]
- JBJulie Bowen
Yeah. Yeah, then you do it.
- APAliza Pressman
But then you lose your roommate.
- AGAdam Grant
All right, Aliza, how do you deal with those people?
- APAliza Pressman
I think in that case, like when in doubt, you just figure out like what do I need to get through this rooming situation or this work situation? You would, that would, you would quit that if that were a relationship. But I don't have a problem with also saying to yourself, "I'm gonna do the dishes because I don't wanna live like this, and I'm also going to make a very clear decision that I'm not living with this person again, or I'm not working with this person," unless you have to. In which case, again, it's like what can you control? We can, we can say all the things to other people, but you can't change other people's behavior and guarantee that you're gonna get what you're looking for. So in situations where you have no choice, but yeah, you'll grow resentful. Somebody will be cleaning the dishes and sighing and moaning.
- JBJulie Bowen
Mm-hmm.
- APAliza Pressman
But it's a lot easier to just say, "This is information so that I can make different choices when I have them, and in the meantime, I have to do the bare minimum to keep myself from going crazy."
- JBJulie Bowen
Do you think, Adam, that in your life... I, I, I wanna circle back to something that's kind of none of my business.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] You should definitely go there then.
- JBJulie Bowen
The fact that you are rational-
- APAliza Pressman
[laughs]
- JBJulie Bowen
... and you experience moral outrage as a, "How do I change this?" On the flip side, do you experience great highs? Like passionate love, or are you sort of blunted on the ends and that's-- I like being blunted on the darker end, but do you get blunted on the higher end?
- AGAdam Grant
Ooh. I think less so than on the negative side, but maybe a little bit. I think my highs don't last as long, and I think they don't go as high as a lot of other people's. Like, I just don't live on an emotional rollercoaster.
- JBJulie Bowen
Right. But if you experience whatever euphoria is for you, and it's r- reasonable and it feels good, then there's-- then that sounds great.
- AGAdam Grant
You know, actually, I, I think it not only feels great, I think it, it's useful, too. There's a-- Sorry, I'm gonna, I'm gonna quote another study here. Uh, I'm thinking about the, the Paul Volta's work on wisdom, where people are asked to nominate the wisest person they know, and then all these people recognized as, as wise are interviewed and surveyed and followed and compared to people in their community who are, you know, less wise. And one of the hallmarks of wisdom is emotional balance, not overreacting negatively or positively. And I don't know if that is a cause of wisdom. It's easier to become wise if you're kind of even-keeled emotionally and always in equilibrium, or whether arriving at wisdom then gives you some kind of equanimity. But I looked at that research and I was like, "Ooh, I wanna be more like that." And I think I first read it when I was in college and going through a bad breakup and really depressed. I don't, I don't wanna be that person anymore. I'm gonna study psychology and figure out how to change, and here we are.
- APAliza Pressman
Adam, you're a dandelion. Like, your highs are a little bit lower and your lows are a little bit higher, and you're adaptable.
- JBJulie Bowen
You're right. He's sturdy. He's a, he's not a, a precious flower.
- AGAdam Grant
But I'm still a flower. Thank you.
- APAliza Pressman
You're still a flower. But I think the steadiness and the wisdom are easier when you're self-regulated, and yet we can't have everybody be like that or-
- JBJulie Bowen
'Cause if everybody was self-regulated, what would happen?
- APAliza Pressman
I mean, nobody would know if the bear is coming. It would be-- We would not survive.
- AGAdam Grant
Also, it'd be a really boring world.
- APAliza Pressman
Yeah. We need, we need a range.
- AGAdam Grant
Orchids are full of creative sparks, right?
- APAliza Pressman
I mean, Julie is.
- 33:27 – 37:46
Personality vs values
- JBJulie Bowen
of a person, but I do struggle with this idea of, not to-- Now, this is gonna sound very broad, but the self and the authentic self because, for example, one of my sisters is devoted to s- the Stoics, and she practices Stoicism and, you know, on a daily basis, Annie.
- APAliza Pressman
Okay.
- JBJulie Bowen
And she reads, yeah, you know, lots of, uh, Marcus Aurelius and all that and sends me podcasts and books and she is a very active in the process of regulating so that she never has to feel, like, out of control. That's great, and sometimes, though, when you, when I try this, I'm like, "That's great, that's great," until it's not great, and then there's this sort of what I'm gonna call my authentic self. And I'm putting that in quotes 'cause I don't know, is that authentic to then be like, "And you know what? Those five times that I didn't mention when you were a total asshole, well, I'm gonna mention them now." And you kind of, that voice takes over, and it feels like the thing that, that I've been trying to bury when I'm being super regulated and stoic. I would love to know what you think of that, about that being, like, your authentic self.
- APAliza Pressman
I just w- I want Adam to answer all of this, but I just wanna point out that her sister is a physician, and Lord knows you want your physician to be steady. [chuckles]
- JBJulie Bowen
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Yeah.
- JBJulie Bowen
And she is.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, this is so interesting. Well, I, I think we all have multiple selves, and so being authentic to one often forces you to be inauthentic to another. And Julie, it sounds like you're talking about a conflict between your personality and your values.
- JBJulie Bowen
Wow.
- AGAdam Grant
Personality is your tendencies and values are your principles.
- JBJulie Bowen
Oh my God. Wait, say it again but slower.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. So personality versus values. Your personality is your tendencies.
- JBJulie Bowen
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
You didn't choose them. Uh, it's the way you're wired. And your values are your principles that you did pick, what matters to you, what's important to you. And so I think for a lot of people, this is a real conflict because on the one hand, you're saying, "Okay, like I, it's important to me to be a calming presence," or, "It matters to me to not fly off the handle at people."
- JBJulie Bowen
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
But on the other hand, if you have to do too much work to suppress those instincts and you're spending all your energy regulating to the point that you blow up at somebody, that's gonna be a worse violation of your values. And so then, you end up in this weird situation where being a little bit inauthentic to your values in the moment in order to be true to your personality allows you to continue living by your values over time. Does that make any sense?
- JBJulie Bowen
That does, but ideally wouldn't a sort of a fully integrated person, their values and their personality would be aligned? [laughs] He just nods.
- AGAdam Grant
Ideally.
- JBJulie Bowen
Sure. Sure.
- AGAdam Grant
Good luck with that. How's it working for you?
- JBJulie Bowen
For me? Um-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JBJulie Bowen
... I mean, honestly, better over time, uh, but my therapist says all the time, "You can be quiet. You can not engage in that, but you won't." And then when I say, "I won't, I won't because it's, I feel like I'm cheating my truest self." You know, when you sit on your r- moral outrage if you see something and you don't do anything about it, and then I, I feel like I wake up six months later like, "What is wrong with me?" And that is a struggle of, I guess you, as you're saying, personality versus values. Man, that's hard. You seem very aligned, Adam
- AGAdam Grant
Why, thank you. I've been practicing for years. I'm glad, I'm glad my acting is working
- JBJulie Bowen
But were you-- I mean, but I know you're joking, but did you have to align them?
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, yeah, of course. I, you know, I think it's, it's very situational. So for me, the, the alignment challenges are mostly in social situations where I have to play extrovert even though I'm an introvert, and there are certain roles where that's really easy, like if I'm on stage.
- JBJulie Bowen
Yeah. Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
But I just went to a conference last week where I was not speaking, which is normally something I don't do, and it was awful. It was so hard.
- JBJulie Bowen
Oh, I bet it is.
- AGAdam Grant
People did not know what to talk to me about. I had to explain who I was. I had to work up the nerve to approach people. If I'd just gotten off stage, I would've had a fantastic three days. So no alignment there whatsoever. But why are we talking about me? Aliza,
- 37:46 – 41:15
Teaching kids about personality/value conflict
- AGAdam Grant
how do you think about... I, I wanna, I wanna hear about the parenting lens on personality values conflict. How do you think about teaching kids to see the difference between the two, and when it's important to actually let their personalities sort of take over versus when they need to override what might, might be their instinct and think in a more principled way?
- APAliza Pressman
I'm gonna say something that might not be what you were looking for, and then you can ignore it. But I th- I'm thinking just as you guys are talking about this, let's call it a skill, but effort, it's called effortful control, and it's, like, under the umbrella of self-regulation, but the really intentional part. Like, when you're talking about integrating your values and your personality, you have to make an intentional decision that that's what you wanna do, that you want to kind of look at the long view and work backwards. Like, what, what do I need to do in order to stay true to my values and integrate, like, who I am with how I act in the world? And that is a developing skill that we just have to practice over time. It's really growable, but it's one of those things that without it, like, without intentional practice, you're basically depending on, like, the luck of the draw if you're capable of it. Did that in any way have anything to do with what you were asking?
- AGAdam Grant
Yes. And I wanna know how you teach that skill and when to turn it off versus on.
- APAliza Pressman
It starts with paying attention to your values and goals and what you're going to do to manage your behavior and your emotions in order to meet those goals. You're doing that in front of your kids. You're naming it in front of your kids, and you're teaching them silly things. Like, young kids, you can do this by playing, uh, music, like freeze dance or something. Like, it's not an im- [chuckles]
- AGAdam Grant
Where were you when my kids were toddlers? I love this idea. So you would actually turn on music and say, "Okay, we're gonna freeze," and then you get to re- basically redo. It's like "Saved by the Bell." Time out.
- APAliza Pressman
Yes, and you're, you're just exercising the skill of your whole self wanting to be moving, but you n- you have a goal, which is to stop when the music stops and then start again. And it seems ridiculous, but, like, you're exercising a muscle that eventually is going to turn into something really important, and if you do it with, like, deep thinking and deep feeling and deep, you know, intention, it's not gonna land as well as if you're doing it in these small ways over time.
- JBJulie Bowen
Wow, I missed the boat on that.
- APAliza Pressman
And now it's over.
- JBJulie Bowen
And now it's done.
- AGAdam Grant
It's too late.
- JBJulie Bowen
My-- And now my kids are dysregulated forever.
- APAliza Pressman
[chuckles]
- AGAdam Grant
One of our listeners is gonna make this an Olympic sport.
- APAliza Pressman
I know.
- AGAdam Grant
We're gonna have Olympic freeze dance. We're gonna see which kid can achieve the most mastery of effortful control-
- APAliza Pressman
[chuckles]
- AGAdam Grant
... to the point that they can freeze on command.
- APAliza Pressman
I know. It's a terrible, like... I, I, I think there has to be a better way to articulate that.
- JBJulie Bowen
Uh, but it's involving, uh, as you said, the wizard brain for little kids in the-
- APAliza Pressman
It requires a lot of wizardry
- JBJulie Bowen
... in the wizard brain and, you know, buying those cognitive pauses. When my kids were little, this is the one-- I'm, like, searching my, my brain for something I did right. I'm like, "Tell me-"
- APAliza Pressman
You did it all right, Julie.
- JBJulie Bowen
No, I did a lot, I did a lot. I did more right than wrong. But
- 41:15 – 44:58
Parenting and digital moderation
- JBJulie Bowen
we, my kids were... And, and yours too, Aliza, and I'm getting that Adam as well. I mean, they were the first iPad, iPhone kids. Like, and we had to figure out how, how to manage that. There was no science yet. There was no data, but we ha- we all had a suspicion, like, they shouldn't have this thing all the time, right? And so we, my kids had, you know, 30 minutes of iPad time, and then it would be taken away, and there was a meltdown every time. And I had friends who's like, "Just don't give it to them, ever." And I'm like, "Then they're not gonna learn how to manage their disappointment and, and how to understand that boundary and limits are something that we're going to enforce, and they can count on that. There's a timer. We set it. When the timer goes off, I'm taking it away. You're gonna..." And they eventually stopped getting so wildly upset about it. That's my version of what Aliza was talking about.
- AGAdam Grant
I love that.
- APAliza Pressman
You're growing their frustration tolerance.
- JBJulie Bowen
That's, that's what I always say. [laughs] I know anything, something's got a name.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JBJulie Bowen
Yes. Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
That, you know, that, that's interesting. It also tracks with a, an experiment I read recently on digital moderation versus digital abstinence.
- JBJulie Bowen
Yes.
- APAliza Pressman
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
Where some people are randomly assigned to just cut off cold turkey from their smartphones and social media.
- JBJulie Bowen
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And others are randomly assigned to just reduce by an hour a day. And if you follow them afterward, it's the moderation approach that wins. When you, when you do the abstinence thing, the moment you get your device back, you haven't built any new habits. All over again, you're at the mercy of the pings.
- JBJulie Bowen
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Whereas when you had to practice reducing an hour a day, you built up your tolerance.
- JBJulie Bowen
Yeah. But it encourages that kind of black-and-white thinking that, you know, we have when we're younger, where it's that all-or-nothing thinking that, like, uh, you guys are gonna much better words for this than I do. But you see adults who- ... weren't taught how to regulate those things, and their parents are sort of giant children, and then they raise giant children. And they're still, it's all or nothing, it's black and white, that two truths cannot be held at the same time. And I don't-
- AGAdam Grant
Binary bias.
- JBJulie Bowen
What?
- AGAdam Grant
Binary bias is the term for it.
- JBJulie Bowen
That's what I was looking for. Of course.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JBJulie Bowen
It was on the tip of my tongue, Adam. I don't know why I didn't think of it. Where do you get all these studies? I need to read these studies. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] We're gonna subscribe you to an academic journal of-
- JBJulie Bowen
That's really funny
- AGAdam Grant
... of Aliza's choice. Developmental psychology, it's coming every month now.
- JBJulie Bowen
But what do you do, Aliza? You must get this all the time. Like, this conversation is a little panicking in a way because I'm like, "Oh no, the ship has sailed. I have 17, 17, and 19." I'm like, "Did I..." How do you introduce this kind of idea of incremental regulation to a young adult?
- APAliza Pressman
By the way, our brains, bless them, are dynamic. They're changing. They're plastic. It's easier when they're younger, but this is a forever process. And we all know this 'cause we've all been talking about how over the years we've become more self-regulated because of growth and wisdom and hormones [laughs] and, and various things. So I, I actually think it's, it's never too late. And also, you might not have known the name for some of the things you were doing. You were still doing them. I mean, I obviously have insight b- because I know your parenting and your kids. But, and I also h- see your, she's a real teen whisperer for another day. I hope it's not panicking. It's a natural thing that's occurring in families, and we're just naming it. And, like, maybe just people can emphasize it a little bit more.
- AGAdam Grant
And I am realizing we are over time. We are way over time.
- 44:58 – 48:59
Finding new purpose after a big achievement
- JBJulie Bowen
Um, but I have a question.
- AGAdam Grant
All right. Ask your question.
- JBJulie Bowen
For your office hours. Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh. Oh, let's go to office hours. Do you have a question, Julie?
- JBJulie Bowen
Oh, yes. Okay, I've written this down, so it sounds written, so I apologize. It doesn't sound conversational. But this sort of post-achievement identity vacuum, you know, after you've, you've r- reached a huge goal, people, asking for a friend who is me, may feel, like, disoriented or empty rather than just fulfilled. When a project is done, you know, Modern Family finished, and my kids got their licenses, and one of them goes to college, and you just feel this, like, this, "Wow, why can't I just be happy about what, the things I've achieved?" As opposed to this kind of the letdown, you know, of, of after a big project. And it's great, and then you're like, there's this empty feeling. What is that?
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, I love this question. Aliza, you wanna go first?
- APAliza Pressman
I was just thinking about what, what a beautiful but difficult position it is to get to a point in life where you aren't told. Like, there is some ease and comfort in just being told what you want for a while.
- JBJulie Bowen
Yes.
- APAliza Pressman
And to realize, like, there's just a really hard space where you have this realization, like, there's literally nobo- I am the boss. [laughs] And now I think at this, in this era for you and for, for many people, we, we get to the point where that's a, it's, freedom is a very hard thing. And then freedom plus uncertainty.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I'm, I'm thinking about, uh, first I was thinking about the honeymoon hangover effect, which is different. That's when the start is unrealistically positive, and then you get a dose of reality.
- JBJulie Bowen
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
I'm thinking about goal displacement and identity derailment are two, two relevant terms that I think capture some of what you're going through. And there's actually a really interesting Corey Keyes paper on this. He coined the term languishing, and I think languishing is a lot of what happens after you had this tremendous sense of motivation and purpose, and your whole life was organo- organized around the project or [laughs] the, the goals that you had for yourself or your kids. And then all of a sudden, it's over, and you're aimless, and you're drifting, and you don't have a sense of direction or meaning. And what Corey found is that even positive changes often elicit negative emotions because they destabilize, like, our, our trajectory, and that's where the sense of displacement or derailment comes in. So I think those are possible terms for it. I think what to do about it, I've changed my view on this over time. I used to wanna fix it, and now I think it's adaptive. Without it, you would just dive headfirst into the next project.
- JBJulie Bowen
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
You would, um, [laughs] you would irrationally, prematurely commit to a bad movie or to a show that you do not wanna be on for the next nine years bec- just because you want something to fill the void.
- JBJulie Bowen
Mm-hmm.
- APAliza Pressman
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And I think part of the reason that we feel a little down after we achieve something or after a milestone is it gives us better peripheral vision. It allows us to take a step back and say, "But what do I really wanna be doing next?" As opposed to d- you know, sort of flinging ourselves head over heels into the wrong thing. And so ironically, maybe what I'm, what I'm landing at is this letdown that you're feeling is what prevents you from committing to something that you wanna quit later.
- JBJulie Bowen
Huh. Nice-
- AGAdam Grant
What do you think?
- JBJulie Bowen
... way to, way to, way to circle it back. What do you think, Aliza?
- APAliza Pressman
I just am so distracted by what a beautiful way to circle it back that was.
- JBJulie Bowen
Right? I know. It was really, it, that's really good. I love it. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, Julie, thank you for opting into our experiment. This was an absolute breath of fresh air, and unlike any podcast I've done before, and also completely unlike what I expected. Aliza, thank you for bringing us together.
- APAliza Pressman
It was my pleasure. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 49:08
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