The case for male vulnerability with Luke Bateman

1. 0:00 – 0:23

   Patriarchy as the “socially enforced mutilation” of men’s inner lives

   1. LBLuke Bateman0:00

      When I talk about patriarchy, I talk about the socially enforced mutilation of your internal world as a, as a man. So-

   2. AGAdam Grant0:07

      That's a, that's a powerful phrase. Say that again

   3. LBLuke Bateman0:09

      ... Yeah. The socially enforced mutilation of your internal world, and happens so silently and invisibly. [upbeat music]

   4. AGAdam Grant0:21

      I have a ton of questions for you, but-

   5. LBLuke Bateman0:22

      [laughs]

2. 0:23 – 3:10

   From rural Queensland rugby pro to outspoken reader and feminist ally

   1. AGAdam Grant0:23

      The, the thing I, I wanna ask you first is, how did you go from being a professional rugby player-

   2. LBLuke Bateman0:29

      Yeah [laughs]

   3. AGAdam Grant0:29

      ... to an outspoken book lover and feminist?

   4. LBLuke Bateman0:32

      [laughs]

   5. AGAdam Grant0:33

      That, that is not a, it's not a typical arc.

   6. LBLuke Bateman0:36

      Ah. No, it's not at all. That question is it comes with a very, very long story, and I'll give it ... I'll try to give you the shortest version possible. So growing up, I grew up in rural Queensland in Australia. I grew up on a farm, uh, surrounded by very blue collar rural men, and I was always such a massive nerd growing up. I was always like a big, I was a geek, I was very soft, I was very kind, and that was never reflected in the world around me. So I always felt really weird growing up. And I played a lot of rugby, and I was fortunate enough to become professional at that. But this whole time I w- I kinda lived these two different lives where I had like the public version of me, which was the big, strong rugby player, and then the at home version of me, which was the soft fantasy reader. I was living my dream. I was a 21-year-old on hundreds of thousands of dollars a year playing professional rugby, living my absolute dream, and I was the most unhappiest that I've ever been. I fell into addiction and depression and really, I had a really, really dark, hard season of life while I was playing rugby. And I ended up in rehab and had to go through a recovery, a lot of 12-step meetings for my addiction. And through that whole process, I, I read lots of, lots of books, lots of psychology books, lots of self-development books. I started doing it 'cause I wanted to, just wanted to live. You know, I, I just wanted to save my own life, uh, from addiction and, and depression and suicide, et cetera. And through that process, I really started discovering the, the narratives, the conditioning, um, the ideologies that, that shaped me without me even knowing about them, you know. And I started to learn about all the systems and the cultures and the narratives that I grew up within. And through that process, I just ended up being where I am, you know, very outspoken around mental health, around patriarchy, around male conditioning narratives, shame, all, all those kinds of things. Uh, and, and when we, you know, when we use the word feminist, I, I also wanna caveat this, like I absolutely am a feminist, but I haven't done any of that groundwork in feminism. Like, there are women out there who have been doing it for decades. Just, you know, there are so many strong, competent, capable women that have been groundbreaking in that area. And so I am very much just a benefactor of all of their hard work. I don't speak for women, I speak with women.

   7. AGAdam Grant3:00

      Well said. So I wanna talk about feminism and masculinity. I also wanna talk about books. Where do you wanna go first?

   8. LBLuke Bateman3:06

      [laughs] Mate, wherever you, wherever you want. I'm happy to follow this ship anywhere.

3. 3:10 – 4:06

   Why “precarious manhood” explains the trap better than “toxic masculinity”

   1. AGAdam Grant3:10

      Let's start on the, on the gender front 'cause-

   2. LBLuke Bateman3:12

      Yep

   3. AGAdam Grant3:13

      ... I, I think you just, you just teed it up effectively. I think that's how I first discovered you was, uh, you'd, you'd recorded a series of videos about masculinity.

   4. LBLuke Bateman3:21

      Mm.

   5. AGAdam Grant3:21

      And it was surprising, first of all. I didn't expect somebody who looks like you to be talking [laughs] about the, sort of the-

   6. LBLuke Bateman3:28

      Yeah

   7. AGAdam Grant3:28

      ... the shame of-

   8. LBLuke Bateman3:29

      Mm

   9. AGAdam Grant3:29

      ... you know, of what I think about in psychology as precarious manhood. My read of the preca- the precarious manhood evidence is it's a better version of what people are trying to get at when they use the phrase tox- toxic masculinity. And I hear toxic masculinity, and I think you've immediately alienated most men-

   10. LBLuke Bateman3:44

       Yes

   11. AGAdam Grant3:44

       ... like by saying being a man-

   12. LBLuke Bateman3:46

       Yes

   13. AGAdam Grant3:46

       ... is toxic.

   14. LBLuke Bateman3:46

       Yes.

   15. AGAdam Grant3:47

       So let's not do that. Instead, let's talk about the science which says the problem with masculinity is that it's precarious.

   16. LBLuke Bateman3:53

       Yeah.

   17. AGAdam Grant3:53

       It's hard to win, but it's easy to lose. And so you're constantly having to prove your manhood, but the moment you show weakness, you have utterly failed to live up to it.

   18. LBLuke Bateman4:03

       Yeah.

   19. AGAdam Grant4:03

       And that, that seems to be the trap that a lot of men get into.

   20. LBLuke Bateman4:06

       Yeah.

4. 4:06 – 6:03

   Rugby culture: 24/7 invulnerability and the road to numbing

   1. AGAdam Grant4:06

      And so it was with that lens that I first came across your wisdom and your unexpectedly candid reflection. And I'd, I'd just love to hear you sort of talk a little bit about did you live precarious manhood as a rugby player? Was that part of your addiction story?

   2. LBLuke Bateman4:21

      Absolutely, and 100% the addiction, the depression, that is all tied up in that precarious manhood. Because I grew up, you know, men, it was men didn't cry, men worked hard, men weren't emotional, men weren't soft, men weren't weak, men weren't vulnerable. Men carried the weight. You know, that's what men were. And especially once you then you got into the rugby environment too where it's very ruthless, it's cutthroat, you know, ev- these are meant to be your teammates, but you're in this highly competitive environment and any form of weakness is a vulnerability that somebody else can exploit. So you have to live 24/7 invulnerable. You never, never show weakness. And it's such a lie. Like I, I was the, you know, I was the, the weakest, most vulnerable, just a, like a, a young boy, a young boy that, uh, didn't know anything, didn't know w- what was expected of me, didn't know who I was, didn't know what I stood for, didn't feel like I belonged in the world, and yet I had to show up every day and be this strong, tough character that was impenetrable, that was the biggest, toughest, meanest, strongest person, you know? The juxtaposition of what was happening internally and what I was pretending to be externally, like they just were at war with each other. You know, the only way that I could survive that was through addiction, was through numbing it. I had this, all of this pain, this noise inside of me that was just screaming at me, and the only way that I could numb it was by drowning it, drowning it in substances and drowning it in gambling and drowning, you know, and it led me to the place, as I said, of where I was, should've been living my dream- But I wanted to end my life.

5. 6:03 – 10:32

   What men are ‘allowed’ to feel: anger, aggression—and not much else

   1. AGAdam Grant6:03

      Hmm. Wow. Luke, I wonder, I wonder if you could paint a picture for me of what that tension looked like in a, you know, in a typical week as a rugby player. So what did you have to suppress? What were you wanting to express that was not acceptable?

   2. LBLuke Bateman6:14

      [laughs] Uh-

   3. AGAdam Grant6:15

      Don't get caught reading a fantasy book, whatever you do.

   4. LBLuke Bateman6:18

      Well, uh, you know, exactly. Like w- reading was a big thing. You know, reading was never allowed. The only books you could read were masculine books, where they were either autobiographies of other sports stars. You know, if you pulled out an autobiography of another male athlete, that's okay. You're allowed to do that. But if you pulled out a book about fairies and dragons and witches and wizards, you would just get ab- you would get slammed. You know, the boys would ridicule you. And when you want to talk about what I was suppressing or what I wasn't allowed to, um, express, it probably, I was suppressing 90%. The only, the only things that were accepted to express was anger, aggression, toughness, meanness. You know, the, those things were really rewarded and, and idolized. And I, I even say to people, we weren't allowed to express our emotions, but even physical pain was something that we weren't allowed to express. You were ridiculed for being in physical pain. You know, you're a [laughs] you're a rugby player playing a con- a high contact sport, and you were glorified for being that bloke who played through an injury, or the, he broke his arm, but he finished the game. To sit down and say to you, to say to one of your teammates, "I'm struggling," or, you know, "I feel, I feel scared," or, "I feel like I'm this, I feel like I'm that," like that wasn't allowed. That was not allowed.

   5. AGAdam Grant7:38

      Wow. That's, I mean, it's, it's upsetting, but it's also, it's the norm. I think about what you just said about emotion, and I think about when psychologists study gender differences and what emotions are acceptable versus unacceptable, it's exactly what you described. Men are allowed to show anger because anger is tough.

   6. LBLuke Bateman7:54

      Mm.

   7. AGAdam Grant7:55

      That's part of manning up and demonstrating your strength. But do not dare express sadness or anxiety because those are, those are soft, weak emotions. I mean, that, at some level, it seems like a vicious cycle.

   8. LBLuke Bateman8:05

      Mm.

   9. AGAdam Grant8:05

      Because the more that you can't express, you know, whatever dejection or, you know, worry that you're experiencing, the more that you, you suppress it, um, the worse it gets.

   10. LBLuke Bateman8:15

       Mm.

   11. AGAdam Grant8:15

       You don't get help. You don't get support. And then you, you have to work harder at suppressing it, and at some point, I can see how that quickly leads you down a path of, you know, of turning to, you know, alcohol or to gambling or to whatever kind of addiction, to your point, will numb the pain.

   12. LBLuke Bateman8:29

       To numb it, yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting, and as you said, you know, when you're talking about precarious manhood, you n- you never reach a place where you're a man, 'cause you have to continually prove it over and over again. But we were never really told what to be. We were told w- what not to be. So all of a sudden you go, "Okay, well, I know what I can't be. I can't be, I can't be girly, I can't be weak, I can't be soft, I can't be emotional." But I never got told what to be. You know, so you spend your life, then you, I spent my life just running from being this, but I wasn't running towards anything. I wasn't aiming for anything. There was no, there was no objective. It was just sprint as fast as you can away from this, and hopefully you end up somewhere good. And then we, you know, and then we wonder why so many men end up in such bad places. We, we never, ever tell them where to go. We just tell them what they have to run away from.

   13. AGAdam Grant9:23

       And that, that daily experience of running, basically it sounds like trying to prove that you're not-

   14. LBLuke Bateman9:28

       Yeah, yeah, yeah [laughs]

   15. AGAdam Grant9:29

       ... this negative, negative stereotype. Like, "I'm not weak."

   16. LBLuke Bateman9:32

       Yep.

   17. AGAdam Grant9:33

       You know, putting that together with precarious manhood research, it lands you at a place where it doesn't matter how many times you demonstrate how tough you are, one moment of weakness is enough for, like, that entire, I don't know, is it a Jenga tower? Is it a [laughs] Lego tower?

   18. LBLuke Bateman9:47

       Yeah, yeah.

   19. AGAdam Grant9:47

       Lego tower. Like, it just comes falling down.

   20. LBLuke Bateman9:49

       Crumbling. Mm.

   21. AGAdam Grant9:50

       What was that like? Is it, "Okay, you know, I thought he was tough, but he's really not," or, "He used to be tough, but he's lost it"?

   22. LBLuke Bateman9:56

       Yeah. That was also the way that you were shamed, you know, you were shamed sort of back into it. You would literally, exactly as you said, like the words, I was like, "Oh mate," you know, "well, you used to be tough," or, "Oh, you didn't, you didn't act like this last time," or, "The last time this happened, you did this." You were shamed back into that, into that narrative, into that box, and it was always just so policed by the men around you. Just policed it to an inch of your life. As soon as you stepped out of that, it was, "No, no, back in here, and whatever we can use to shame you back in, we'll do it."

6. 10:32 – 12:21

   Conditioning at home: ‘hard men,’ generational silence, and inherited tools

   1. AGAdam Grant10:32

      So part of that is, is sports culture, and especially, I would imagine, professional sports culture.

   2. LBLuke Bateman10:36

      Mm.

   3. AGAdam Grant10:37

      But you also alluded to the fact that this was part of your, your conditioning growing up.

   4. LBLuke Bateman10:42

      Yeah.

   5. AGAdam Grant10:42

      Talk to me about that.

   6. LBLuke Bateman10:43

      You know, growing up, I was surrounded by really hard men, and they were all farmers, truck drivers, you know, rig workers, mechanics. These were men who worked long hours in hard physical labor jobs. You know, they were real men. These were the real men, not the, not the men in the city, not the men wearing suits. These were, these were men in overalls covered in grease and dirt who were working with their hands. You know, that was the, that was the epitome of, of what a real man was. And those men, and I, you know, I seen them, saw it with both, I have a stepfather and a real father, and I love them both. I love them both so deeply. Love them both so deeply. But both of them, I've never, ever seen either of them cry. I've never seen either of them cry. And even now, with my real father, I've never once spoken about him, spoken to him about my addiction. Never once. Like, he will listen to a podcast like this, say, he'll listen to a podcast where I speak about it, and he'll go, "Oh, I, I listened to your podcast with Adam Grant the other day." And I'll go, "Oh, h- did, you know, did you like it?" And he'll go, "Yeah, like, it was good." I'll go, "Is there anything you want to talk about?" And he'll go, "No, no." So just that, you know, it was just you never ever, you never delved into the emotional world. You never delved into vulnerability. There was never space for weakness. That is not their fault. You know, that, I, I don't blame them. I love them. These are men that I love deeply. But they were never given those tools, and so they didn't have the tools then to give to me. That was just how they-

   7. AGAdam Grant12:09

      Yeah

   8. LBLuke Bateman12:09

      ... that's what they knew.

   9. AGAdam Grant12:10

      Yeah, some of this seems to be generational.

   10. LBLuke Bateman12:12

       Mm.

   11. AGAdam Grant12:12

       We, [laughs] we, we come f- we come from a generation of, you know, of men who did not know how to talk about emotions-

   12. LBLuke Bateman12:18

       Mm

   13. AGAdam Grant12:18

       ... and frankly, who didn't know how to manage their own emotions-

   14. LBLuke Bateman12:20

       Yeah

7. 12:21 – 14:54

   Vulnerability as resilience: naming emotions and reframing anxiety

   1. AGAdam Grant12:21

      ... because of the, the kind of upbringing you're describing. It seems to me that there's growing recognition when I, you know, when I talk with my students, for example, or with my kids, that vulnerability is not the opposite of resilience, that vulnerability-

   2. LBLuke Bateman12:33

      Yeah

   3. AGAdam Grant12:33

      ... actually builds resilience.

   4. LBLuke Bateman12:34

      Yes.

   5. AGAdam Grant12:35

      That what's really resonated with me in, in some of the research I've done is that when people have the opportunity to express the emotions they're experiencing, they can get the support they need-

   6. LBLuke Bateman12:43

      Yeah

   7. AGAdam Grant12:43

      ... but they can also build their own skills to handle those emotions.

   8. LBLuke Bateman12:47

      Yeah.

   9. AGAdam Grant12:47

      And over time, that, that makes them better at regulating them. And so I think about vulnerability as actually a skill that allows us to become more resilient.

   10. LBLuke Bateman12:54

       Yes.

   11. AGAdam Grant12:55

       How do you think about that, and how do we, I guess, bust this false dichotomy?

   12. LBLuke Bateman13:00

       Vulnerability is a superpower. Vulnerability is, quite frankly, I think the strongest thing that we can do. I started seeing, you know, therapists, and they would say, "When you feel angry or when you feel this, do this. Here's a tool for you." And I go, "I don't know when I feel that way. I've never named that emotion. I've never experienced that emotion. I don't know. So you're giving me a tool to go from B to C. I can't even go from A to B. That's missing for me completely." So I had to start developing that, and the only way we do that is through vulnerability with other people and with ourselves to sit down and go, "Oh, Luke, you're feeling really scared right now. What is that?" "Oh, that's, that's anxiety." "Okay. What, what are you anxious about?" "Oh, you're really... You've got this coming up. You've got this meeting in an hour. You're doing a podcast with Adam Grant. You feel a little bit anxious about what you're gonna say and how that conversation's gonna go. Hey, that's okay." So now, oh, I know why I'm feeling that. I'm feeling that, but the reason I'm feeling that is 'cause I'm excited, and I wanna speak well. I wanna do well. I want Adam to gra- gain something from our conversation. This anxiety is not something to be feared. This anxiety is something to be embraced because this is you preparing to do well. You know? So you cannot do any of that without vulnerability. So vulnerability is actually the pathway to strength, to competency, to having wonderful experiences in life.

   13. AGAdam Grant14:32

       I love the way you articulated that, and along the way, you just delivered a masterclass in the cognitive reappraisal-

   14. LBLuke Bateman14:38

       [laughs]

   15. AGAdam Grant14:39

       ... strategy of emotion regulation.

   16. LBLuke Bateman14:41

       Yeah. [laughs]

   17. AGAdam Grant14:41

       Yeah. Well played. That's-

   18. LBLuke Bateman14:43

       Yeah

   19. AGAdam Grant14:43

       ... that's classic reframing.

   20. LBLuke Bateman14:45

       [laughs] Thank you. Man, that, that, that sounded nice over the past couple minutes. That's taken me about six years of therapy to get to, so [laughs]

   21. AGAdam Grant14:52

       Well, I think it's paid off.

   22. LBLuke Bateman14:54

       Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

8. 14:54 – 16:22

   Raising boys differently: validate emotions, separate feelings from behaviors

   1. AGAdam Grant14:54

      We can, uh, we can, we can conclude at this point. So talk to, talk to me a little bit about how do you think boys should be raised differently in light of the revelations you've had over the, the last six years?

   2. LBLuke Bateman15:05

      I think that we need to be much just kinder to young boys and really validate their emotions and validate their weaknesses, and just to say to a, to young boys when they're feeling emotions, when they're having these big emotions, when they're sad, when they're crying, when they're angry, whatever they're feeling, validate them and say, "That's okay. You're feeling an emotion." We are feeling beings who think, not thinking beings who feel. And to really validate that in young men and say, "Hey, you are an emotional being. Your emotions are the most beautiful thing about you." That doesn't make every emotion, like, okay. That doesn't make your responses okay. There are acceptable and unacceptable responses. But every emotion is acceptable. That's really what I wanna see.

   3. AGAdam Grant15:56

      That is such a different vision from what the manosphere is offering right now-

   4. LBLuke Bateman16:00

      Yeah. [laughs]

   5. AGAdam Grant16:01

      ... to boys and young men.

   6. LBLuke Bateman16:02

      Yeah.

   7. AGAdam Grant16:02

      Such a different vision, and-

   8. LBLuke Bateman16:03

      Yeah

   9. AGAdam Grant16:03

      ... you know, I, I find it compelling. I think it's a really promising antidote to the male loneliness and depression-

   10. LBLuke Bateman16:09

       Mm

   11. AGAdam Grant16:09

       ... that we're seeing, to some of the male violence, I think, that-

   12. LBLuke Bateman16:12

       Yeah

   13. AGAdam Grant16:12

       ... that, that we're observing. I can also, though, envision a lot of pushback-

   14. LBLuke Bateman16:17

       Yeah

   15. AGAdam Grant16:17

       ... like from, from the crowd that says, "Stay hard."

   16. LBLuke Bateman16:20

       Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

9. 16:22 – 21:01

   Answering the manosphere: redefining ‘protect’ and ‘provide’

   1. AGAdam Grant16:22

      Like, I think the fear in the manosphere is that we're gonna raise a generation of men who cannot provide, who cannot protect, uh, who are basically emasculated.

   2. LBLuke Bateman16:33

      Yes.

   3. AGAdam Grant16:34

      What do you say to that audience?

   4. LBLuke Bateman16:35

      Well, uh-

   5. AGAdam Grant16:36

      I mean, the first answer should be like, "I can out-squat you and out-bench you, so shut up."

   6. LBLuke Bateman16:40

      Well, I was [laughs] I was gonna say, and I think-

   7. AGAdam Grant16:42

      [laughs]

   8. LBLuke Bateman16:43

      ... I really think that that's one of the reasons why my voice is quite important in this because I am 100 kilo, you know, six foot rugby player, very traditionally masculine man who speaks with a deep voice. So by default, that argument is defunct with me straightaway, you know? And when we talk about protecting and providing, it's really externally focused, and I'll, I'll speak on both parts. So when we talk about protecting people, we as men are always like, you know, oh, we, we have to protect, um, physically. You know, we have to be able to fight other men or whatever. But 92% of abuse and violence cases against women come from men that they know, be that a partner, brother, father, cousin, whatever. So when we talk about, when we have this protector narrative, the man that people need to be protected from is you.

   9. AGAdam Grant17:41

      Wow.

   10. LBLuke Bateman17:41

       That is the person that people need to be protected from, and I even, when I went through addiction, the person that I harmed the most was my mother, and I, I hold so much guilt around that. The person that I harmed the most was the person who loved me the most, the person who helped me, the person who loved me unconditionally, the woman who supported me and just wanted me to, just wanted her little boy to, to get better. Sorry, I get a bit emotional. The person that my mother needed to be protected from was me, her son. And so when we have this p- protector narrative, it's so debunked about, you know, "Oh, we have to be these big, tough men." Like, protection comes from community. And as men, how we protect other people is by sorting our own internal world out so that we don't express our emotions through violence, aggression, and anger. That's how we protect people. And so [laughs] I, and now I'll move on to the providing one as well. When we talk about providing, you know, when the manosphere, men, we always talk about financially. So you are a financial provider. So that gives you a really, really tiny, uh, percentage of men who will be able to do that, especially now with the cost of living that we see. There is such a small minority of men who will actually be able to financially provide for a partner and for children. This usually takes two, t- you know, two-income household to be able to do this. So now as a man, you're given this narrative of to be a provider, you have to earn X amount financially. That's becoming really hard for people to do, so immediately now you fail as a man. Your manhood is taken away from you, and now you will try to gain that manhood back through other means, which is usually taking it from people more powerless than you, women and children. Providing is providing a safe space emotionally, physically, and spiritually for other people so that they can grow, so that they can be the best versions of themselves, so that they feel safe to be able to be and do what they want to do. That is how we provide to other people, especially as men, like providing spaces where people, regardless of gender, race, class, whatever, feel safe so that they can prosper.

   11. AGAdam Grant19:51

       Wow.

   12. LBLuke Bateman19:51

       That is how we provide.

   13. AGAdam Grant19:53

       I mean, Luke, this is a major rethinking moment-

   14. LBLuke Bateman19:55

       [laughs]

   15. AGAdam Grant19:56

       ... I think for a lot of people. You've, you've completely reoriented the way that, that we talk about what it means to both protect and provide.

   16. LBLuke Bateman20:03

       Mm.

   17. AGAdam Grant20:04

       So just to recap, you're saying a man's first responsibilities are protect vulnerable people from you-

   18. LBLuke Bateman20:11

       Yes

   19. AGAdam Grant20:11

       ... and the harm that you could do, and provide an environment in which everyone can thrive.

   20. LBLuke Bateman20:16

       Correct. And I'll even take this a step further, too. That starts with yourself, because men don't provide and protect for themselves, you know? Like providing a safe internal place where you get to live and belong, because I didn't, you know, I didn't belong in my own internal world for so long. So providing a safe place where you get to be the human that you are, and protecting yourself from all the narratives and conditioning that you're getting poured on top of you. And once you provide for yourself and protect yourself, then you can extend it to others around you. And I mean this, we also need to be providing and protecting for other men. You know, providing that space where they get to step out of that masculine narrative, too.

10. 21:01 – 22:33

    Backlash, identity disintegration, and losing ‘friends’ who were just habits

    1. AGAdam Grant21:01

       What do your former rugby teammates think of this new philosophy of yours?

    2. LBLuke Bateman21:05

       [laughs]

    3. AGAdam Grant21:06

       Do they, do they call you a cuck, a beta?

    4. LBLuke Bateman21:08

       [laughs] Mate, I, I get called a, I get called a soy boy, cuck, or a beta, things like that. I get called that all the time, and so it's really interesting to me. It's really interesting. Uh-

    5. AGAdam Grant21:18

       Is that your first reaction? "Oh, that's interesting."

    6. LBLuke Bateman21:20

       Yeah. I, I do. I ac-

    7. AGAdam Grant21:21

       It doesn't piss you off?

    8. LBLuke Bateman21:22

       Not one bit. That's a compliment to me.

    9. AGAdam Grant21:24

       [laughs]

    10. LBLuke Bateman21:25

        That is truly a compliment. That's how, that is how I know that I'm d- I'm doing the right work, is when someone calls me a soy boy cuck. That is how I know that I'm doing the right work.

    11. AGAdam Grant21:34

        Wow. That, okay, that, that's a slightly different framing than, than the one that, that I've adopted, which is-

    12. LBLuke Bateman21:39

        [laughs]

    13. AGAdam Grant21:40

        ... wow, somebody feels really threatened by the idea that there might be men who believe that women can be strong and capable.

    14. LBLuke Bateman21:46

        That's why I know that I'm doing the right work, because I'm threatening the male ego, the male narrative. 'Cause for men to change, it comes with a complete disintegration of their identity as a, as a man. So over the past few years, I've really lost pretty much, like, all of the people that I, all of the men that I was involved with in r- in rugby league, e- except for, except for a, a really small few. Once I stopped drinking, doing drugs, and gambling, those men fell out of my life, 'cause I was like, oh, hang on a minute, we weren't friends. We just drank together. We just did drugs together. We just gambled together. That, we weren't actually friends. We didn't, we never connected. You know, we were never vulnerable.

    15. AGAdam Grant22:25

        No, you, you just had a, a shared hobby or a shared habit, and once you removed that, the relationship-

    16. LBLuke Bateman22:31

        Yeah

    17. AGAdam Grant22:31

        ... was a charade.

    18. LBLuke Bateman22:32

        Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

11. 22:33 – 27:04

    How to talk to men without triggering defensiveness: ‘calling in’ invitations

    1. AGAdam Grant22:33

       This is such a tightrope walk-

    2. LBLuke Bateman22:35

       Mm

    3. AGAdam Grant22:35

       ... from my perspective as a psychologist, because on the one hand, you, you often do have to challenge people in order to get them to change. On the other hand, if they get too defensive, we end up with the kind of reaction that we were talking about earlier with toxic masculinity of, you know, people either they go on the attack or they tune you out. How do you think about the right version of this message that gets people to, to really let go of some of their, their o- their past beliefs, to maybe walk away from the, the old notion of masculinity that they were clinging to, and actually be open to a new identity?

    4. LBLuke Bateman23:08

       It's so funny that you ask me that, because I had this question for you. 'Cause I [laughs] I was gonna say to you-

    5. AGAdam Grant23:16

       Oh.

    6. LBLuke Bateman23:16

       No [laughs] yeah, no. 'Cause I was actually g- I was gonna ask you, I was gonna say, in terms of what the research says, like, what is the right language that doesn't make people defensive? Because I do struggle at times, especially as soon as you mention the word patriarchy, men just switch off. They go, "That's a woman thing. That's a feminist thing." That's just, you know, they, they're immediately on the defensive. But, so yeah, it was, it was, it was gonna be one of my questions to you. But I always say to people, I like to invite. I like to be very invitational. Say to men, I say, "Hey, if you want to, you know, hear about this, this is, this is an invitation. You don't have to change. You don't have to do anything. I can give you a bit of information. We can have a conversation. Uh, you don't have to do anything with it. If you want to, I'm always here. I'm always open. Reach out to me whenever you want." Uh, I don't always get that right. I stuff that up all the time. I, I, yeah, I get that wrong all the time. And there's been times where I reflect on it and go, "Wow, I really, like, I really did just, um, alienate that person from the way that I said things. I, I, I need to be more invitational." So I get it wrong all the time, but yeah, I, I do try and really lean into that inviting people in instead of calling people out mentality.

    7. AGAdam Grant24:23

       Yeah, I think one of our past guests, Loretta Ross, uh, talks about that as calling people in-

    8. LBLuke Bateman24:28

       Yeah

    9. AGAdam Grant24:28

       ... as opposed to calling them out. And it gets such a different response from people.

    10. LBLuke Bateman24:31

        Mm.

    11. AGAdam Grant24:32

        Right? Because they, they don't feel like- ... they are being shamed or judged-

    12. LBLuke Bateman24:37

        Yes

    13. AGAdam Grant24:37

        ... or, you know, deemed worthless, they're kind of welcomed into a learning opportunity. And it's so much easier to approach the interaction with curiosity that way. But delivering the invitation is not easy, um, especially at scale, right?

    14. LBLuke Bateman24:50

        Yeah.

    15. AGAdam Grant24:50

        To say, "Hey, [laughs] dudes, I want to invite all of you."

    16. LBLuke Bateman24:54

        Yeah.

    17. AGAdam Grant24:54

        If you're, if you've ever felt like masculinity is not serving you well-

    18. LBLuke Bateman24:58

        Yeah. [laughs]

    19. AGAdam Grant24:59

        ... I have a different vision.

    20. LBLuke Bateman25:00

        Yeah, 'cause pa- it-

    21. AGAdam Grant25:01

        No, it's-

    22. LBLuke Bateman25:01

        Yeah, it doesn't work, yeah.

    23. AGAdam Grant25:03

        It's mu- it's much easier to do one-to-one.

    24. LBLuke Bateman25:05

        One, yeah.

    25. AGAdam Grant25:05

        To say, "Hey, Luke, hey, let me, you know, I, I, I'd love to hear a little bit more about what's going on in your head."

    26. LBLuke Bateman25:12

        Yes, and especially when you know a little bit about that person, too, 'cause you can tailor it for them.

    27. AGAdam Grant25:18

        Yeah.

    28. LBLuke Bateman25:18

        Whereas you are right, when you try to do it en masse is really, really difficult. And there are, you know, there are things for me, there are words and, you know, and like patriarchy is one of them. There are kinda like these words where they have to be said. It's sort of like I, I, I know that this is going to alienate people as soon as I say it, but I, it's, I cannot say this authentically without this word, you know? It's-

    29. AGAdam Grant25:42

        I, I think so, too, and I think there, I think there, there are a few different ways to approach this. But one of the, one of the things I've been thinking about lately is you can often start this conversation by saying, "Hey, I've been hearing a lot of talk about patriarchy, and it turns out-

    30. LBLuke Bateman25:55

        [laughs]
12. 27:04 – 30:54

    Male advocates, unequal praise, and the job of amplification

    1. AGAdam Grant27:04

       One of the other things I wanted to ask you about is there have been a whole series of studies now showing that when men advocate for women-

    2. LBLuke Bateman27:11

       Mm-hmm

    3. AGAdam Grant27:11

       ... or for feminism or for equality or equity or egalitarianism, fill in-

    4. LBLuke Bateman27:17

       Yeah

    5. AGAdam Grant27:17

       ... fill in your favorite one.

    6. LBLuke Bateman27:18

       Yeah. [laughs]

    7. AGAdam Grant27:18

       They get celebrated for it.

    8. LBLuke Bateman27:20

       Yeah.

    9. AGAdam Grant27:20

       Like, like you and I are, what, what good guys.

    10. LBLuke Bateman27:24

        Yeah.

    11. AGAdam Grant27:24

        Who would have ever expected us to care about someone who doesn't look like us? When a woman raises some of the unfairness or injustice and advocates for her group-

    12. LBLuke Bateman27:35

        Yeah

    13. AGAdam Grant27:35

        ... she gets dismissed as self-serving, as whining, as complaining. And like the fact that you and I can have this conversation and we are gonna be criticized less than two women who are having this conversation is part of the problem.

    14. LBLuke Bateman27:47

        That was, yes. That was-

    15. AGAdam Grant27:49

        How do you think about solving that?

    16. LBLuke Bateman27:50

        Oh, it makes me furious, you know. How we go about changing that, I think, oh, that's a big question. I, I truly, I'm not sure I have a, a really spot on answer for that. But I really do think it has to begin with men opening the door. As I said, as I said at the beginning, you know, I don't speak for women. I will never do that. That is not my place. I do not speak for women; I speak with women. And opening the door and saying, "Hey, come on through. Now everybody here listen to this voice," I think that that's how we help. Like those doors are closed to women, so we need to, we need to open those doors and give them access to that space and make sure that when they're talking, their voices are heard. And once again, the issue is that we have to do that. That shouldn't be, that shouldn't be the case.

    17. AGAdam Grant28:40

        Exactly.

    18. LBLuke Bateman28:40

        Should not be the case whatsoever. But if that is, if that has to be the first step, then I'm happy to begin there.

    19. AGAdam Grant28:46

        That's actually really, really well articulated, and it's, it's also consistent with the, the research that Kristen Bain and her colleagues did on, on amplification, on the importance of, you know, a man saying, "Hey, she was speaking."

    20. LBLuke Bateman28:58

        Yeah.

    21. AGAdam Grant28:59

        Or, "Hey, like I, I actually wanna build on the point or reiterate the point that she made."

    22. LBLuke Bateman29:04

        And the thing for me is what she's saying benefits us. She's like, yes, she's advocating for women, but everything she's saying benefits men so much, and it pisses me off that you have to like, you have to present the benefit to men so that they will listen.

    23. AGAdam Grant29:21

        Yeah.

    24. LBLuke Bateman29:21

        You know?

    25. AGAdam Grant29:22

        I've had a very similar reaction to the now legions of books and articles and white papers that have said, like, "Gender diversity in workplaces, like is, you know, good for the bottom line." We should not have to make the financial argument.

    26. LBLuke Bateman29:36

        Yeah.

    27. AGAdam Grant29:37

        You should be able to make the moral argument-

    28. LBLuke Bateman29:39

        Mm

    29. AGAdam Grant29:39

        ... that anyone who's qualified deserves a shot, full stop. You know, it's, it's also interesting, Luke, when, when I talk with men about this, this dynamic, I think often about Kristen Pressner's, she has a, a flip it test, and she says, "Look, one way, you know, you can gauge bias is would you react differently if a man said this versus a woman said this?"

    30. LBLuke Bateman29:59

        Mm.
13. 30:54 – 33:54

    The reading crisis: getting boys to read—and men to read women

    1. AGAdam Grant30:54

       Okay, so I wanna make sure we talk a little bit about books.

    2. LBLuke Bateman30:56

       [laughs] Yes, please. [laughs]

    3. AGAdam Grant30:59

       And you know, I, I, I actually think it's, it's a perfect segue from the masculinity conversation because we're in the midst of a reading crisis and a literacy crisis globally. Reading is down.

    4. LBLuke Bateman31:09

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AGAdam Grant31:10

       Um, book reading in particular is down, and that is dis- disproportionately true for men and boys. We know that, that in, throughout the developed world, um, boys' literacy rates are far below girls'. We know that women are more likely to read books, um, and buy books than men. I think this is a, a massive, massive societal issue, uh, when it comes to raising a generation of critical thinkers, when it comes to building empathy, when it comes to creating the kind of inner world and interiority that you were talking about. So what can you tell us about how to get boys and men to read, I guess would be the first question.

    6. LBLuke Bateman31:46

       Oh.

    7. AGAdam Grant31:46

       And then a follow-up, women read men. How do we get men to read women?

    8. LBLuke Bateman31:51

       Oh, yeah. [sighs] How to get men and boys into reading is by making certain that at a young age we're giving them the stories that they want to read. That's the number one key. If we don't give them the right story to engage them, I think we lose them. So it really h- once again, this has to start young. The other, I would even say it doesn't have to be reading. You know, it doesn't have to be a novel. I would love it to be. I mean, I think it's the best thing to do. But if they're not a reader, they don't enjoy reading, there has to be other ways, and I really like audiobooks for that. I am okay with screen and TV if that sort of, if that's the, if that's the s- onboarding process through that pathway, I'm more than happy with that. So we need to make sure we're engaging young boys in storytelling, um, and that they have the stories that they wanna love. And then what was your second question? Sorry.

    9. AGAdam Grant32:43

       Well, I guess, so I think that there are actually two versions of this question.

    10. LBLuke Bateman32:48

        Yep.

    11. AGAdam Grant32:48

        One is how do we get boys and men to read stories about girls and women?

    12. LBLuke Bateman32:52

        About girls, yes.

    13. AGAdam Grant32:53

        And then also to read female authors.

    14. LBLuke Bateman32:55

        [laughs] Well, we're very for- I mean, I think we're very fortunate in today's world that there's more women authors than male authors, so we're very lucky that there's a lot to choose from in that sense. And how we get men to read those books is, once again, I think we have to find the right story for them, because it's not about the author, it's about the story. I personally would love to move beyond gender and go, "Hey, you need to read this story. This is the genre that you love. This is a story that you love. This is a character that you will connect with," because women write beautiful characters regardless of gender, and beautiful stories that men can connect with. So I really wouldn't frame it. I think the framing has to be different. Not so much, you know, we need men to read female authors. We need men to read stories about emotion that they connect with, that move them, that give them visceral reactions in some way, shape, or form.

14. 33:54 – 37:24

    Lightning round: favorite books, worst masculinity advice, and a healthier core

    1. AGAdam Grant33:54

       That's a great segue to the lightning round.

    2. LBLuke Bateman33:57

       Okay. [laughs] Fantastic.

    3. AGAdam Grant33:58

       Rapid fire questions for you. Here we go. First question is: what are your favorite fantasy novels?

    4. LBLuke Bateman34:04

       Magician by Raymond E. Feist, The Painted Man by Peter V. Brett, and Assassin's Apprentice by Robin Hobb. They're great.

    5. AGAdam Grant34:10

       Wow, you didn't even hesitate there.

    6. LBLuke Bateman34:11

       No. No, I, [laughs] I- books are my thing. Books are my thing. [laughs]

    7. AGAdam Grant34:15

       What other authors would you recommend for getting boys or men into reading?

    8. LBLuke Bateman34:19

       I love Robin Hobb. She is phenomenal as a writer. There's a, an Australian author called Matthew Reilly who writes... They're like action movies. And I always say to people, I say, "That's the best point for men to start, Matthew Reilly. Start with a Matthew Reilly book, read it, and then we can sort of bring you over to something new." But I think one, one that sticks out to me is Red Rising by Pierce Brown. Red Rising is, is a really good novel, and a lot of young men and boys and young men really love that book.

    9. AGAdam Grant34:48

       Yeah. What do you think is the worst advice people are given about how to be a man?

    10. LBLuke Bateman34:52

        The worst advice that people are given about how to be a man is that they need to be protectors and providers, that their manhood is externally factored. Any piece of advice that comes with an external factor, bad advice.

    11. AGAdam Grant35:03

        Okay, so what's your alternative? What would be your, your best advice?

    12. LBLuke Bateman35:07

        The best advice I would give to a man is to start with yourself, to learn about who you are internally. That's the number one step. That sounds hard, but it, it's not that hard. And just learn who you are internally. Learn who your, learn who the 12-year-old version of you is and what they need from you. That's the first person that you need to provide and protect for, that 12-year-old self of, that lives inside of you.

    13. AGAdam Grant35:29

        Okay, so you're hosting a dinner party to try to talk about healthy masculinity. Anybody alive or dead, who are you inviting?

    14. LBLuke Bateman35:35

        Who, who am I inv- Well, I mean, the very first person that come to my mind is Bell Hooks. Straight away, Bell Hooks. She's number one. Oh, then this is probably a bit self-serving, this one, but I would love for, like, Plato to be there. I would love for, for Plato to be there. I think he would have lots to offer. Alexander and Marcus Aurelius, I think they're probably... Ah, they're pro- I don't know whether they're g- men who would speak great on positive masculinity, though. [inhales]

    15. AGAdam Grant36:04

        May- maybe we're gonna enlighten them at the dinner.

    16. LBLuke Bateman36:07

        Jameela Jamil. I've love her. I, I admire her so deeply. And a woman who I just spoke in Australian Parliament with a couple weeks ago, Jess Hill. She's phenomenal. I'll also add Robin Dunbroff, uh, whose book I just finished, Real Men On Top. Phenomenal thinker. Mm.

    17. AGAdam Grant36:23

        Great group. Okay. What's something you've rethought or changed your mind about recently?

    18. LBLuke Bateman36:27

        So many things over the past few years, but you know what? Actually, this will be a little bit left field, but I was always a massive believer in, like, soulmates, and that my person would be out there. And I've really changed over the past six to 12 months my mind about love- And partnership and ro- and romantic relationship. And that's actually come a lot through the wonderful work of bell hooks in her book All About Love. And I've really changed my view sort of around, oh, there, there's someone out there for me, they're waiting for me. And now I know I'm like, oh no, there's someone out there who I can build a life with. So that's what I've really changed my, my mind around recently.

    19. AGAdam Grant37:06

        I have some data to add to that, but-

    20. LBLuke Bateman37:07

        Please

    21. AGAdam Grant37:08

        ... I'm not at liberty to, to talk about them until, uh, my next book comes out.

    22. LBLuke Bateman37:13

        Oh, okay, fair enough. Fair enough.

    23. AGAdam Grant37:13

        All I can say is chapter one of Vibe is going to validate that view with evidence from social science. How's that?

    24. LBLuke Bateman37:20

        All right. Well, I'll just, I'll just live my life as a dumpster fire until then.

    25. AGAdam Grant37:23

        [laughs]

    26. LBLuke Bateman37:23

        No worries. [laughs]

15. 37:24 – 43:50

    Office hours: do people need rock bottom to change? Making change less costly

    1. AGAdam Grant37:24

       All right. La- last part of, of the podcast is office hours time. Did you come with a, a question for me that we didn't already discuss?

    2. LBLuke Bateman37:32

       Well, I, I did come with a question for you, and this is, this is a question that I ask myself daily, I think, you know, uh, definitely weekly, a- and this comes from my own personal experience 'cause I obviously went through addiction and rehab and what I would call, you know, the, the dark night of the soul, the, the rock bottom. Do we as humans have to hit rock bottom to change our lives, or can we reach it? Is there a way that we can reach it? Is there a way that we can teach young kids if we can reach it without that extreme level of suffering and hardship?

    3. AGAdam Grant38:05

       Oh, that's such a great question. My read of the data is no, you don't have to hit rock bottom-

    4. LBLuke Bateman38:09

       [laughs] Okay, great. [laughs]

    5. AGAdam Grant38:10

       ... to, to want to change your life or even to change your life.

    6. LBLuke Bateman38:13

       Yep.

    7. AGAdam Grant38:14

       Which is good news for most people, but bad news for you because there would've been a less painful path.

    8. LBLuke Bateman38:18

       [laughs] Where were you six years ago, Adam? [laughs]

    9. AGAdam Grant38:20

       You, you didn't have to suffer like you did, Luke. You didn't. I don't think we can ever predict or control the timeline-

    10. LBLuke Bateman38:25

        Mm

    11. AGAdam Grant38:25

        ... for, for when we wanna change or for when other people wanna change.

    12. LBLuke Bateman38:28

        Mm-hmm.

    13. AGAdam Grant38:29

        Here's the way that, that I would analyze it from, from all the research I've read is I don't think most people actually do the cost-benefit analysis.

    14. LBLuke Bateman38:36

        Yeah.

    15. AGAdam Grant38:36

        But in order to change, people have to feel that there are gains, and those gains clearly outweigh the losses. And the problem is that when it comes to most change, the gains are, they're, if they're sort of ephemeral or ethereal or uncertain.

    16. LBLuke Bateman38:50

        Mm.

    17. AGAdam Grant38:50

        I can't see them, I can't touch them, I t- I can't taste them. I don't know if they're gonna come. But the losses are vivid and visceral.

    18. LBLuke Bateman38:57

        Yeah.

    19. AGAdam Grant38:58

        And I think the reason that so many people end up changing after hitting rock bottom is they have nothing left, left to lose. Like, they're, they're just at a point.

    20. LBLuke Bateman39:05

        Yeah.

    21. AGAdam Grant39:05

        They're like, "Okay, I've hit rock bottom. How could this possibly get worse?" So they don't have the hesitation from a certain loss, and they also think, "You know what? Like, the gain may not come, but if the possibility is there, can't get worse."

    22. LBLuke Bateman39:21

        Yeah.

    23. AGAdam Grant39:21

        "Why not give it a shot?" And so if that's the perspective that, that often leads people to change when they're at rock bottom-

    24. LBLuke Bateman39:26

        Yeah

    25. AGAdam Grant39:26

        ... I think then the question is: How do we help people along to that perspective sooner?

    26. LBLuke Bateman39:30

        Sooner, yeah. How do-

    27. AGAdam Grant39:31

        And I, and I, I think there are, there are two ways of answering it.

    28. LBLuke Bateman39:33

        Yeah.

    29. AGAdam Grant39:34

        One is we try to make the gains more immediate and more-

    30. LBLuke Bateman39:40

        Tangible

Episode duration: 43:50