The importance of validation with therapist Caroline Fleck | ReThinking with Adam Grant

1. 0:00 – 0:38

   Intro

   1. CFCaroline Fleck0:00

      You would probably presume that as the person who literally wrote the book on validation, I would be pretty good at this and would get it right. No. I screw it up all the time. I screwed it up this past weekend. [upbeat music]

   2. AGAdam Grant0:15

      Hey, everyone. It's Adam Grant. Welcome to ReThinking, my podcast on the science of what makes us tick. My guest today is clinical psychologist Caroline Fleck. She's a therapist who teaches at Stanford and specializes in helping her clients connect and change. Her new book, Validation, is a powerful read on building better relationships. Hey, Caroline.

   3. CFCaroline Fleck0:34

      Adam. Hey, it's so great to speak with

2. 0:38 – 6:01

   Caroline's origin story

   1. CFCaroline Fleck0:38

      you.

   2. AGAdam Grant0:38

      You've been the target of a lot of people's burdens and needs and unwanted emotions for a long time.

   3. CFCaroline Fleck0:44

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. As a therapist, you mean?

   4. AGAdam Grant0:47

      Even before that, as a third grader.

   5. CFCaroline Fleck0:49

      [laughs] Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Emotionally sensitive, sure.

   6. AGAdam Grant0:55

      Tell, tell me about that and why you decided you wanted to seek out more of it and turn it into your career.

   7. CFCaroline Fleck1:00

      I talk about it as though it was a, a superpower, although at times there was a level of, um, intensity to a lot of the conversations I found myself on the receiving end of. Um, people just always opened up to me, and when I was younger, it could be odd, it could be strange, because it was often even adults. And so I just seemed to have this capacity to get people talking, and I'm not the type of person who likes small talk. I don't like to sit around and talk about the weather. It drives me crazy. And so getting to actually see what's going on in people's lives, that's life, that's reality, and that's where I like to live. Being somebody that people talk to easily made me aware of how desperate people are for someone to talk to. There's really a, a human need that we have to be heard, so much so that it doesn't even matter almost who we're sitting across from.

   8. AGAdam Grant1:53

      Having your friend's mom as a nine-year-old [laughs] confess-

   9. CFCaroline Fleck1:56

      [laughs]

   10. AGAdam Grant1:56

       ... that her husband is cheating on her is a little extreme though, isn't it? Tell me that story in-

   11. CFCaroline Fleck2:00

       Yeah [laughs]

   12. AGAdam Grant2:00

       ... in brief.

   13. CFCaroline Fleck2:01

       Oh, gosh. Yeah, so I had... I was waiting for my friend to come home from, I think it was dance practice, and I would often go to her house and just kind of hang out for a little bit, and her mom would be there, and we'd just chill for, like, 10 minutes until her daughter got back, and then we would go, her- me and her daughter would go play in the basement. And one day, I come home, and there's just, like, the energy is off, you know? It's not hostile. It's just off. I'm just kind of keeping quiet, trying not to... trying to feel out what's going on, and then out of nowhere, the mom [laughs] spills a two-liter of, of Pepsi on the floor and just starts bawling. So I immediately, like, kind of bend down and, and help her, but in that moment, as I'm helping to clean it up, I realize that these tears are bigger than Pepsi could possibly explain, like, there's more going on here. And so I, I did, I vividly remember slowing down. We were, like, mopping up the, the Pepsi, and I put my hand on top of her hand, and I said, [laughs] "Are you okay?" And she just kind of stopped moving and started rocking back and forth and said, "You're not gonna understand this. You can't understand this, but he's cheating on me." And I remember making this conscious decision because as a third grader, it was always, like, Mr. and Mrs., you know. In that moment, I kind of made myself, uh, more of a peer. Even just saying his name in that way, all of the story just started to come out. But, like, again, I'm like, "Oh, my..." And part of me is like, "I've got a window into what's going on with adults. They trust me." Like, this is cool. This is power. [laughs]

   14. AGAdam Grant3:40

       Wow. That sounds extremely uncomfortable.

   15. CFCaroline Fleck3:44

       That's interesting. Uncomfortable? You think so?

   16. AGAdam Grant3:46

       I do.

   17. CFCaroline Fleck3:47

       How come?

   18. AGAdam Grant3:48

       'Cause it's crossing a major boundary. Like, the subject matter is inappropriate for a nine-year-old.

   19. CFCaroline Fleck3:55

       Mm.

   20. AGAdam Grant3:56

       As an adult figure in your life, she's supposed to be looking out for you, not leaning on you.

   21. CFCaroline Fleck4:02

       Mm. Yeah, I can see that, like, from an adult's perspective, right, from, from where I am now. At the time, it honestly didn't feel like that because I felt like I was already holding so much tension. You know, it felt weirder to not know what was wrong with someone. And granted, I didn't understand the intricacies of infidelity in the context of a marriage or anything like that, but I often find that to be the case. When you actually find out what's going on with people, and often you find out it's not about you, which is everybody's worst fear, it becomes easier to dialogue.

   22. AGAdam Grant4:32

       That's fair.

   23. CFCaroline Fleck4:32

       [laughs]

   24. AGAdam Grant4:33

       Okay, so knowing what you know now as a therapist-

   25. CFCaroline Fleck4:36

       Mm

   26. AGAdam Grant4:36

       ... what should someone in that position say?

   27. CFCaroline Fleck4:38

       I lucked out and, and just happened upon some of the right things. So that moment of putting my hand on, on her hand, so I didn't actually say anything there. But that was a level of communication. It was a, a subtle comfort, and in some sense it was giving permission. And so I think that's a pretty good move in that moment, when somebody is being vulnerable, to allow yourself to be tender in response to that. Um, and in those situations, you can feel that the person is holding so much back, and they don't really need your interpretation of what's going on. They don't need you to say much. They just need you to make it okay for them to speak. And so saying less is actually more in those situations in my opinion. Yeah.

   28. AGAdam Grant5:25

       Is that, is that a basic version of validation, then?

   29. CFCaroline Fleck5:29

       Yeah, it is. Well, actually not even basic. So when I teach validation, I teach, uh, eight skills basically that help you communicate it to varying degrees, and that one of touch, that reaching out and, uh, basically soothing somebody, that's, that's a pretty high level of, "Hey, it's okay. I accept you. You're safe here." It's a high level of validation as opposed to just kind of paying attention we could consider to be a lower level.

3. 6:01 – 9:22

   What is validation?

   1. AGAdam Grant6:01

      So you think that validation might be the single most important social skill we have?

   2. CFCaroline Fleck6:06

      Yeah, I do.

   3. AGAdam Grant6:08

      Tell me what it is and why you think it matters so much.

   4. CFCaroline Fleck6:11

      So we've got the academic definition, which is that validation communicates that one is mindful, they understand, and they empathize with another person's experience, thereby accepting it as valid. So it has those three components, mindfulness, understanding, and empathy, and when they're combined, they often have the effect on the other person of helping them feel accepted. My basic version for validation is that it just shows that you're there, you get it, and you care. So when I'm trying to validate somebody, those are basically the marks I'm trying to hit. That's what I'm focused on. In my opinion, validation is tantamount to compassion or maybe even, uh, love in a sense. And so my experience has been that folks don't have a great understanding of what validation is, much less how to communicate it. Imagine if you didn't understand what compassion was or exactly how to express it or engage compassion. Your life would seem so different in so many ways, right? Like, you would be missing something. That's how validation is to me. I, I see it in much the same way as I, I see terms like empathy or mindfulness, or even like emotional intelligence, some of these terms from my field that have made their way out of academia and into the mainstream, and that people very much orient their lives around now.

   5. AGAdam Grant7:41

      I think a lot of people when they hear the, the term validation, um, they misunderstand it right away.

   6. CFCaroline Fleck7:47

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   7. AGAdam Grant7:48

      And you're very clear in saying validating others is not praising them, it's not-

   8. CFCaroline Fleck7:53

      Mm-hmm

   9. AGAdam Grant7:53

      ... giving them approval, and it's not agreeing with them.

   10. CFCaroline Fleck7:55

       To illustrate this, let me ask you, do you think it's important to seek external validation?

   11. AGAdam Grant8:01

       Sometimes.

   12. CFCaroline Fleck8:03

       Oh, sometimes! You are a rare one. Most people when I suggest that they seek external validation, they're like, "Oh, no, no, no. I, I don't do that. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't tell anybody to do that," as though it's like this very dangerous thing. Most people seem to understand that it's important on some level in some cases to provide validation, but never, ever to seek it. Like, what does it mean? Why is it okay to give it but bad to receive it, right? Um, and usually what's going on there is that folks are confusing external validation with praise. Okay? Praise is a judgment. And so they're saying if you're, if you're externally seeking praise all the time, we can see where that would be problematic, right? You can contort yourself in all sorts of ways to meet other people's approval. But validation communicates acceptance and belonging, and there's no need for contortion. It's just being as you are and being seen for that. And I think we do all deserve that.

   13. AGAdam Grant9:02

       I love that distinction. It just reminds me that, like, people don't need you to agree with them as long as they feel that you understand them. One of the things that really appeals to me about the idea of conveying acceptance and belonging is that actually makes it easier for me to tell you that we're not-

   14. CFCaroline Fleck9:17

       Mm-hmm

   15. AGAdam Grant9:17

       ... entirely on the same page. Like, but I still have your back.

   16. CFCaroline Fleck9:20

       Mm-hmm.

   17. AGAdam Grant9:20

       I still like you.

   18. CFCaroline Fleck9:21

       Mm-hmm.

   19. AGAdam Grant9:21

       I'm still

4. 9:22 – 15:11

   How to validate someone

   1. AGAdam Grant9:22

      rooting for you. So I want to talk about when and how to validate people.

   2. CFCaroline Fleck9:25

      Okay.

   3. AGAdam Grant9:27

      Let's start with the how because I think the, the skills that you unpack are extremely practical here.

   4. CFCaroline Fleck9:32

      Yeah.

   5. AGAdam Grant9:32

      And my, my two favorites are contextualizing and equalizing. We have a lot of parents listening, trying to figure out-

   6. CFCaroline Fleck9:39

      Mm-hmm

   7. AGAdam Grant9:39

      ... like, your kid comes home from school, they're feeling left out. How do you validate them?

   8. CFCaroline Fleck9:44

      I think us parents, nine times out of 10, we hear our child is being left out, and we immediately want to solve that problem. It hurts us to hear that. Your hand is going [laughs] up.

   9. AGAdam Grant9:56

      I, I'm, I'm already thinking through the steps you should take to fix that.

   10. CFCaroline Fleck9:59

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I'm the same, and the steps I could take. What haven't I done as a parent? I haven't set up any play dates. Oh, my God, I've been so busy with work. How was this not on my radar? How am I just hearing about it now, right? My mind goes in a million different directions to try and solve that problem. So actually, as a first step, I need to notice that inclination to problem solve, and I need to do a gear shift. It feels like a mental gear shift towards I'm just going to try and listen. I'm just going to communicate that it's okay. What they're feeling is okay. I wanna understand what they're, what they're feeling, and I might ask some questions. Or I will just suggest some things because children, they don't have the great- the, the greatest emotional vocabulary, right? And so I might say something like, "You must be disappointed. You must be confused, right? What are you doing wrong? These are things you might be wondering." I'm actually just kind of putting myself in their head space and helping them sort out what they're thinking and feeling. And that in and of itself is very validating, right? Because you are putting words to things that they might not have been able to articulate otherwise.

   11. AGAdam Grant11:15

       Talk to me a little bit about what contextualizing is and then how you would do it.

   12. CFCaroline Fleck11:18

       Mm-hmm. Contextualizing is an understanding skill. So I, I mentioned before that validation includes these components of mindfulness, understanding, and empathy. If you can understand where someone is coming from, then you're in a position to use contextualizing and, or equalizing. If not, you just need to be mindful, and that's all you can do is, is pay attention. But if you do understand, your task is to try and communicate to somebody that their response is logical. With contextualizing, you're looking at the bigger picture. Perhaps their reaction isn't immediately understandable if you look at the circumstances. I need to zoom out and look at the larger context to try and- Understand where that reaction is coming from

   13. AGAdam Grant12:08

       It tracks with what a mentor used to say to me. Uh, she would say, "Behavior always makes sense from the actor's perspective, otherwise they wouldn't do it."

   14. CFCaroline Fleck12:15

       Often the behavior that you're, or the reaction that you're responding to is one that, that doesn't seem effective, that seems, quote unquote, "wrong." When I was working in the VAs, I was working with a group of folks who were just back from active duty, and I start, uh, speaking, talking about some model of something or other, some skills they could use, and down the hall there's this loud door slam. And Adam, two-thirds of that group ducked to, like, get under their chair. And then even though they had all kind of had a similar response, they come up and you can just kind of see the embarrassment on their face, right? Like, this is, this is not, quote unquote, "normal behavior." This is not a normal reaction given where we are. However, if I zoom out and I look at the c- larger context, of course they're reacting that way. They just came back from active duty, right? For them, for months, a loud noise could mean death was imminent. [laughs] And so they're trying to protect themselves. That makes total sense. So if I want to validate the men and women in that group, I would speak to that larger context. But at no point am I saying that's an effective response right now. It's not necessary in this situation, and yet it makes sense.

   15. AGAdam Grant13:39

       Mm-hmm. Okay, so how would equalizing look different in that same circumstance?

   16. CFCaroline Fleck13:45

       Equalizing is arguably easier because it essentially says anybody in your shoes would do the same. It's looking at somebody's reaction to a situation and saying, "Oh yeah, that makes total sense." And we tend to come by this one more easily, more naturally, because we don't have to do as much, mm, leg work. Equalizing simply says, "Eh, if I were in your shoes, I would do the same."

   17. AGAdam Grant14:09

       When I think about the people that come to me for validation-

   18. CFCaroline Fleck14:12

       Mm-hmm

   19. AGAdam Grant14:13

       ... uh, whe- whether it's a, you know, a student wanting my stamp of approval on the career choice that they're deeply ambivalent about-

   20. CFCaroline Fleck14:18

       Mm-hmm

   21. AGAdam Grant14:19

       ... but feel pressure or obligation to pursue, and usually it involves-

   22. CFCaroline Fleck14:23

       Ooh

   23. AGAdam Grant14:23

       ... foregoing something meaningful in favor of making a lot of money.

   24. CFCaroline Fleck14:27

       I would not validate that, by the way, but keep going.

   25. AGAdam Grant14:29

       Uh, I try not to either, but I want to validate them.

   26. CFCaroline Fleck14:32

       [laughs] Yeah.

   27. AGAdam Grant14:33

       Their ambivalence is valid.

   28. CFCaroline Fleck14:34

       Yes. There you go. You can amb- you can totally validate the ambivalence. That makes sense. That's valid.

   29. AGAdam Grant14:39

       Um, but i- in a lot of those cases, I'm like, "Yes, given, like, [laughs] the fact that you took out a lot of student loans or you need to support your family-

   30. CFCaroline Fleck14:50

       Mm
5. 15:11 – 17:49

   Only validate the valid

   1. CFCaroline Fleck15:11

      I think about validation, I don't have to validate the entirety of someone's response. I look at their thoughts, their behaviors, and their emotions as kind of independent, um, parts of their experience that I could validate. So their emotions may be valid even if their thoughts are not. Their behavior may be valid even if their thoughts are not. And all I need to do is find which of those is valid and validate that.

   2. AGAdam Grant15:41

      You, you had a phrase in the book that I loved. You said, "Only validate the valid."

   3. CFCaroline Fleck15:45

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AGAdam Grant15:46

      When I was first learning about your perspective on validation, I was like, "Wait a minute, this is dangerous. Not all opinions are valid. Not all emotions are appropriate." [laughs] Part of what I, I try to do for people in my life and in my audience is to help them rethink their assumptions and question their feelings-

   5. CFCaroline Fleck16:02

      Yeah

   6. AGAdam Grant16:02

      ... right? Not to-

   7. CFCaroline Fleck16:03

      Yes

   8. AGAdam Grant16:03

      ... like, go around just wanting to engrave them in stone.

   9. CFCaroline Fleck16:07

      So as a clinical psychologist, I, I am seeing folks who are struggling in some pretty profound ways, and often their behavior or their thought process is wildly, um, ineffective. And so it's easy for me to focus on that because it's so salient. As human beings, we are naturally drawn towards what doesn't make sense or what's wrong. That's our innate negativity bias, right? If I don't see how that person's emotions make sense in light of what they are thinking, I'm going to wildly invalidate them. I'm going to be harping on trying to change their thoughts. But that will not work because they will not feel seen by me.

   10. AGAdam Grant16:59

       This strikes me as, as one of the moments when cognitive behavioral therapy often fails people.

   11. CFCaroline Fleck17:05

       Mm.

   12. AGAdam Grant17:06

       And your preferred approach of dialectical behavioral therapy can be useful. I want to ask you about the distinction, but my, my understanding of cognitive behavioral therapy is that often you go right to the irrational thought-

   13. CFCaroline Fleck17:19

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

   14. AGAdam Grant17:19

       ... or the invalid belief that somebody's formed, and try to-

   15. CFCaroline Fleck17:22

       Mm-hmm

   16. AGAdam Grant17:22

       ... reason them through it. And that works really well if you're somebody like me who processes almost everything by reasoning.

   17. CFCaroline Fleck17:29

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AGAdam Grant17:29

       But [laughs] if you're somebody for whom emotion tends to dominate, there's the risk that, like, people actually feel threatened by you questioning-

   19. CFCaroline Fleck17:36

       Mm-hmm

   20. AGAdam Grant17:36

       ... one of their core ideas-

   21. CFCaroline Fleck17:38

       Mm-hmm

   22. AGAdam Grant17:38

       ... about the world. It's a more empathetic approach. Um, and ironically then, it allows them to actually be more open to admitting that they might be wrong about

6. 17:49 – 20:09

   CBT vs. DBT

   1. AGAdam Grant17:49

      something.

   2. CFCaroline Fleck17:49

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AGAdam Grant17:49

      Is validation the core of dialectical behavior therapy? How is it different from-

   4. CFCaroline Fleck17:53

      Mm

   5. AGAdam Grant17:53

      ... CBT? I'm sure we have some people who have dabbled in both with us.

   6. CFCaroline Fleck17:59

      Yeah. So cognitive behavioral therapy and dialectical behavior therapy, they are focused on behaviorism, as the, as the terms imply. Behaviorism is all about change. It's using reinforcement and punishment and conditioning- To try and change, uh, usually people's behaviors. In the case of CBT, you're also trying to challenge their thought process. Very change-oriented approaches. And they are very effective a lot of the time, but not all the time. And DBT was created by this woman Marsha Linehan, who was trying to treat a population for which we had no effective treatments at the time, and that was folks struggling with borderline personality disorder. Uh, folks who were engaging in self-harm, had high rates of suicidality. And she often said, "I was focus all, uh, trying to help them solve their problems and, and, and feel better, and everyone just hated me." Right? "They, they felt like I was just constantly trying to change them. I didn't understand, and they hated me." And so she says she switched gears and tried going just all acceptance and unconditional positive regard, and people loved her, and nobody got better.

   7. AGAdam Grant19:20

      [laughs]

   8. CFCaroline Fleck19:21

      And it wasn't until she combined those two strategies... And in all honesty, she, she really kind of fleshed out the acceptance stuff. She got really into Zen Buddhism, and she developed these validation skills. And once she balanced the behavioral change emphasis with a corresponding emphasis on communicating acceptance, boom, that's when the magic happened. All of a sudden, we had an evidence-based treatment for a population that had, until that point, been considered untreatable. And so that kind of spread like wildfire throughout clinical psychology, and we started to see a lot more therapies based on, on that model of acceptance and change.

7. 20:09 – 22:26

   Managing anger

   1. AGAdam Grant20:09

      I read a meta-analysis recently suggesting that dialectical behavior therapy was consistently effective for helping people manage anger.

   2. CFCaroline Fleck20:19

      Hmm.

   3. AGAdam Grant20:20

      Talk to me about what that looks like. Like, I'm thinking about [laughs] if a client comes in and is struggling with anger issues.

   4. CFCaroline Fleck20:27

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AGAdam Grant20:28

      What, what do you actually say to them? How do you work through that balance of acceptance and change?

   6. CFCaroline Fleck20:33

      It really depends if the anger is focused at me versus if it's at another person.

   7. AGAdam Grant20:37

      Let's, let's say it's anger w- at their partner, you know? Like, not, not contributing in, like, in childcare.

   8. CFCaroline Fleck20:43

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AGAdam Grant20:43

      And basically, you, you feel like you're the one, like, sort of carrying the relationship.

   10. CFCaroline Fleck20:49

       Yeah.

   11. AGAdam Grant20:49

       And resentment is brewed, and every little thing your partner does then kind of leaves you to fly off the handle.

   12. CFCaroline Fleck20:56

       Well, so let me ask you, then, what is the, what's the outcome you're seeking?

   13. AGAdam Grant20:59

       Well, I think for the, for the client, the goal is to change the partner's behavior, and for the partner, the goal is for the client to stop being so angry.

   14. CFCaroline Fleck21:09

       So if I'm speaking just with the person who is angry, I, I can of course validate their anger. I can look for ar- all sorts of, um, examples based on what they've told me about how their partner is not pulling their weight. And I will say to them, "You can be right all day, but that doesn't mean you're gonna be effective." And so with anger, it often is about making that decision between do I wanna be right or do I wanna be effective? Because if I wanna be right, then I can just be angry and yell at them every single time and say, "You're not emptying the dishwasher. We talked about that." And that might be right, but it will not be effective. And so if you want change, you usually have to regulate anger, okay? Unless you wanna live in, like, a hostile regime, which I don't think you want your home to be. So now we're into self-regulation strategies, right? This is all of your basic anger management stuff. This is time out. This is face in freezing cold water to drop your heart rate. And I'm going to have them practice those skills with me in session and then practice using them in real life with their partner when they're angry. Yeah.

   15. AGAdam Grant22:25

       Fair.

   16. CFCaroline Fleck22:25

       It's fun

8. 22:26 – 28:37

   Validation vs. problem solving

   1. CFCaroline Fleck22:26

      stuff.

   2. AGAdam Grant22:26

      Okay, let's go to the question of when to validate versus when to problem solve.

   3. CFCaroline Fleck22:31

      Okay.

   4. AGAdam Grant22:31

      I, I am on the record as somebody who often just jumps right to the solution. It's actually what I want the other person to do.

   5. CFCaroline Fleck22:38

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   6. AGAdam Grant22:38

      So I'm, I'm projecting my preference onto many people who don't share it.

   7. CFCaroline Fleck22:44

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AGAdam Grant22:44

      But w- when is my impulse appropriate, and when do I need to take care to validate first?

   9. CFCaroline Fleck22:50

      So I'm gonna let you off the hook here.

   10. AGAdam Grant22:52

       Don't.

   11. CFCaroline Fleck22:52

       I'm... [laughs]

   12. AGAdam Grant22:55

       You're, you're not helping anyone-

   13. CFCaroline Fleck22:56

       Um..

   14. AGAdam Grant22:56

       ... by letting me off the hook on this.

   15. CFCaroline Fleck22:57

       Well, actually, I think if, if validation was more widely understood, ultimately what we should be able to do is ask people and tell people what we want. So s- your partner, your children, whomever, should be able to say to you, "Listen, I don't want problem-solving right now. I just want validation." If they don't have that, that vocabulary, you can introduce it. You can ask, "Do you want validation right now or problem-solving?" So this is how we talk in my house, and you would probably presume that as the person who literally wrote the book on validation, I would be pretty good at this and would get it right. No. I screw it up all the time. I screwed it up this past weekend, right? Like, my daughter will say, "I want validation," and I'll start validating, and then I'll quickly start problem-solving, and she'll say, "Mom, no, I wanted validation." And I'll say, "Okay, okay, okay, sorry, yeah, you're right." And so it is about having the self-awareness for what you need, but then having also the mindfulness in communication to consider upfront what do- does this other person need. So you can ask them point-blank, absolutely open with validation if you're not sure.

   16. AGAdam Grant24:09

       That doesn't let me off the hook. Good.

   17. CFCaroline Fleck24:12

       [laughs]

   18. AGAdam Grant24:15

       How do you think about this in the context of accountability? I'm thinking about validation at work. As a manager, let's say, you know, you have somebody who's, uh, who's consistently falling short of their goals. Like, you know, "I understand that you're in a tough situation right now, but also-"

   19. CFCaroline Fleck24:31

       Mm-hmm

   20. AGAdam Grant24:31

       ... "like, we have goals that we need to achieve that we're relying on you for, and you're letting us down."

   21. CFCaroline Fleck24:37

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   22. AGAdam Grant24:38

       That's gonna feel invalidating at the end of the day.

   23. CFCaroline Fleck24:41

       No, not necessarily. I think we're afraid of that. The truth is, both things can be simultaneously true, and most people are capable of balancing those two realities. It's when we insist that they must be one way or the other, that's when we paint ourselves into a corner. So we're so concerned that invalidating the other person, we're gonna reinforce their bad behavior or their lack of productivity, or whatever the case may be. Please experiment with it. Truly, you will find that that is not the case. You are allowed to say, "I can totally understand where you're coming from. This has been a really hard time, X, Y, or Z, and this isn't working out." Both of those things can simultaneously be true, and they often are.

   24. AGAdam Grant25:27

       Do you have a way of communicating that, that makes it a little bit easier to digest, is, is what I'm wondering. In part because I'm thinking about the, uh, the evidence on primacy and recency effects, and how-

   25. CFCaroline Fleck25:39

       Mm-hmm

   26. AGAdam Grant25:39

       ... [laughs] it's very easy for people to just over-index on like, the good news they heard at the beginning around validation.

   27. CFCaroline Fleck25:49

       Mm-hmm.

   28. AGAdam Grant25:50

       And then like, sort of dismiss or discount the, the later message that says, "This is not working out."

   29. CFCaroline Fleck26:00

       Hmm. I think it's all in the delivery there, because we're also really sensitive to negative feedback. If the implication is that this is bad for you, and you land that message just as well as you land the validation part, folks are gonna, are gonna hear it. Moreover, they're going to feel more inclined to do right by you, given that you're someone that they feel understood and/or seen by. I'm not really motivated to rise to the occasion for people whom I don't respect. I feel all sorts of obligation to people who have been there for me and who are making an effort to understand where I'm at.

   30. AGAdam Grant26:40

       Okay, one other scenario I want to ask you about-
9. 28:37 – 31:20

   Dealing with oversharers

   1. AGAdam Grant28:37

      How do you think about the, [laughs] the problem of oversharing?

   2. CFCaroline Fleck28:42

      Hmm.

   3. AGAdam Grant28:43

      Or, you know, or dumping? [laughs]

   4. CFCaroline Fleck28:46

      Hmm.

   5. AGAdam Grant28:46

      We... I think most people can relate to the experience of someone just sort of like unloading all of their emotional baggage and-

   6. CFCaroline Fleck28:54

      Mm-hmm

   7. AGAdam Grant28:54

      ... being disrespectful of your time or-

   8. CFCaroline Fleck28:57

      Mm-hmm

   9. AGAdam Grant28:57

      ... maybe like [laughs] crossing a line of, you know, what might be appropriate for the level of relationship you have.

   10. CFCaroline Fleck29:05

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AGAdam Grant29:05

       And of course, you want them to feel seen, but you also want to set a boundary there.

   12. CFCaroline Fleck29:09

       The behavior of oversharing in whatever scenario we're envisioning here, it's not effective. Okay? Right? They're not making good use of my time. I'm feeling mistreated or misused as a result. I'm hearing more than I want. I'm getting burnt out, right? I can validate a little bit and then set limits on my time. And if I'm worried that the validation is functioning as reinforcement, if I realize that, if I worry that in being so validating I'm encouraging this p- person to unload, then I can scale back the validation.

   13. AGAdam Grant29:42

       So what would that look like? What would you say to that person?

   14. CFCaroline Fleck29:45

       Hmm. Yeah. So I come across this just constantly in, in the work that I do because I am people's go-to person. And so once they have that connection with you, they want that connection all the time. I'm frequently getting text messages and emails at all hours from folks in varying degrees of distress, and that will quickly burn you out. And so I'm, I'm pretty good at setting limits with folks. I, I think people typically use the term boundaries. Psychologists often use limits instead. But my limit would be, "Hey, listen, if you text me after 9:00, I'm not gonna respond." And if you keep texting me a- after 9:00, I'm probably gonna start to dislike you at some point.

   15. AGAdam Grant30:27

       You tell people that-

   16. CFCaroline Fleck30:28

       So-

   17. AGAdam Grant30:28

       ... directly?

   18. CFCaroline Fleck30:28

       Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   19. AGAdam Grant30:30

       If you text me-

   20. CFCaroline Fleck30:31

       But I often do

   21. AGAdam Grant30:31

       ... repeatedly after 9:00, I am gonna stop liking you.

   22. CFCaroline Fleck30:35

       Uh-huh.

   23. AGAdam Grant30:35

       Just, I just want you to know the consequences.

   24. CFCaroline Fleck30:37

       Yeah. And I'll do it with a little bit of, of humor, but it's also true. Setting your limits up front with folks is so much easier than doing it after the fact.

   25. AGAdam Grant30:47

       If you don't get it preventatively, the early intervention and response is important. And I, I can see saying to that person, "You know, normally I, like, I actually block people who keep texting me-

   26. CFCaroline Fleck30:58

       Yeah

   27. AGAdam Grant30:58

       ... at 2:00 AM, but I like you so much-

   28. CFCaroline Fleck31:00

       Yeah

   29. AGAdam Grant31:00

       ... that I didn't do that.

   30. CFCaroline Fleck31:02

       Mm-hmm.
10. 31:20 – 34:51

    Lightning round

    1. AGAdam Grant31:20

       let's go to a lightning round.

    2. CFCaroline Fleck31:22

       Mm.

    3. AGAdam Grant31:23

       What is the worst advice that people give about how to validate others?

    4. CFCaroline Fleck31:29

       What's the worst advice people give about how to validate others? Probably has to do with confusing praise with validation. The confusion is that it, that the validation should be specific to the product, to somebody's outcome or their performance. And really, validation should focus on the person. "So it's great that you spent all Christmas break working on the, the coding that we needed to get done. You did an amazing job. Everything is running so much smoother. Th- thank you." That's praise. Validation says, "And it really sucks that you had to do that over the holidays. You must feel burnt out. You must feel resentful, [laughs] frankly, that you had to carry so much of the weight. I'm, I'm sorry that that was the case. I hope we can do better next year," whatever the case may be. So not confusing those two, I think, is important.

    5. AGAdam Grant32:25

       That's excellent. What is something you've rethought in the course of your work?

    6. CFCaroline Fleck32:32

       Do you know what's something I've rethought recently, is, um, social media. I never thought I was gonna rethink this one. W- have always been pretty against social media for all of the obvious reasons. Um, and I'll maintain that I don't think it's great for me personally on, like, a mindfulness level, okay, which is something I really value. But I've, you know, I started doing just the teeny-tiniest bit of social media in promoting this book, and I'm blown away by how much more effective it is at getting the message out. I was so worried, I, I think, about all of the misinformation that is perpetrated, or cir- that circulates as a function of, of social media, that I under-indexed on its potential to circulate, um, evidence-based information or meaningful information.

    7. AGAdam Grant33:25

       Well, welcome to the 21st century, for better and for worse.

    8. CFCaroline Fleck33:28

       You said something to the effect of, like, social media is just another way of giving, um, or sharing information, something to that effect.

    9. AGAdam Grant33:36

       Caroline, what's the question you have for me?

    10. CFCaroline Fleck33:39

        Adam, I know that you are a fan of Survivor, as am I. I'm really off topic here, but would you, have you ever considered applying to go on Survivor?

    11. AGAdam Grant33:48

        I have. My, my kids are trying to talk me into it.

    12. CFCaroline Fleck33:51

        Oh.

    13. AGAdam Grant33:51

        And [laughs] I-

    14. CFCaroline Fleck33:53

        Save, save, save

    15. AGAdam Grant33:53

        ... got a note from a, I got a note from a producer asking, uh, if I was ready to submit an application, and I said, "No."

    16. CFCaroline Fleck33:59

        Adam, it's the adventure of a lifetime.

    17. AGAdam Grant34:02

        Is it, though? I don't think I wanna be any more public than I already am.

    18. CFCaroline Fleck34:06

        That's, like, the one downside.

    19. AGAdam Grant34:07

        And also, it's, it's a month away from family. I'd never go away for longer than a week.

    20. CFCaroline Fleck34:11

        I know. I know.

    21. AGAdam Grant34:12

        And I try to do less than that, always.

    22. CFCaroline Fleck34:15

        I know. But it's Survivor. Do you think you'd do well?

    23. AGAdam Grant34:19

        I would love to see a season of, like, social and behavioral scientists as contestants.

    24. CFCaroline Fleck34:25

        I, I totally agree. I have thought this many times.

    25. AGAdam Grant34:28

        I think that-

    26. CFCaroline Fleck34:28

        It would be an excellent one

    27. AGAdam Grant34:29

        ... would be fascinating. I'd feel good about going into that environment.

    28. CFCaroline Fleck34:32

        I think I'd be the first one voted out.

    29. AGAdam Grant34:33

        Why?

    30. CFCaroline Fleck34:34

        I'm a great liar, I think, but for some reason in these games, I am the number one suspect, and, like, that is all Survivor. So I know I would be the first one out. If I wasn't, then I'd do fine.
11. 34:51 – 36:32

    When should you seek validation?

    1. AGAdam Grant34:51

       You asked me a really interesting question at the beginning about seeking validation. Should we ever do it?

    2. CFCaroline Fleck34:57

       Mm.

    3. AGAdam Grant34:58

       And I said, "Sometimes." When do you think people-

    4. CFCaroline Fleck35:00

       Mm

    5. AGAdam Grant35:00

       ... should seek validation, and how should we ask for it?

    6. CFCaroline Fleck35:04

       So let me reframe that. Do you think that you should seek, um, acceptance and belonging?

    7. AGAdam Grant35:09

       Of course, everyone should.

    8. CFCaroline Fleck35:11

       Th- those are kind of synon- the synonyms in my mind. Again, I think for most folks, the synonyms they associate with validation really are, like, praise and stuff like that. But if you sh- if you would seek acceptance and belonging, then you should seek validation. Mark, Mark Leary, this great social psychologist, has a quote that I absolutely love. I'm gonna butcher it, but it's something to the effect of, "Humans are distinct from animals not in their desire to affiliate and engage, but in their need for acceptance." And I think that really, really speaks to the power of validation because if you can meet that need, you're meeting a basic need. That's a lot of power.

    9. AGAdam Grant35:55

       Caroline, thanks. This is, this is a blast.

    10. CFCaroline Fleck35:57

        It was lovely to speak with you. I was a competitive baton twirler for, like, 10 years, and it was, like, super intense. I would not recommend competitive baton twirling for any other reason. But yeah, the tenacity and grit is, is hard to come by otherwise.

    11. AGAdam Grant36:14

        You definitely have baton twirler energy.

    12. CFCaroline Fleck36:17

        [laughs] So do you, and I mean that sincerely.

    13. AGAdam Grant36:20

        Oh, I don't know if that's a compliment or not, but thanks, Caroline. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 36:42