The psychology of compatibility with Malcolm Gladwell

1. 0:00 – 2:59

   Pals or allies? Opening banter and what their relationship is

   1. AGAdam Grant0:00

      Malcolm, what are we?

   2. MGMalcolm Gladwell0:01

      I think we're pals. Don't you think we're pals?

   3. AGAdam Grant0:03

      So interesting, but we've never done pal activities together.

   4. SPSpeaker0:06

      [laughs]

   5. MGMalcolm Gladwell0:06

      This, this is a pal activity.

   6. SPSpeaker0:08

      [laughs]

   7. MGMalcolm Gladwell0:08

      That's... [laughs] Don't you think?

   8. SPSpeaker0:12

      [upbeat music]

   9. AGAdam Grant0:16

      Malcolm Gladwell, you are on book tour right now.

   10. MGMalcolm Gladwell0:20

       I am.

   11. AGAdam Grant0:20

       Your book has been out two weeks, and here you are coming to host me for my book tour in your city. That is an extraordinary act of generosity. I am grateful for it. Thank you.

   12. SPSpeaker0:29

       [clapping]

   13. MGMalcolm Gladwell0:31

       Thank you. It's my pleasure. We should start by explaining why you're wearing a Bills jersey.

   14. AGAdam Grant0:36

       Do we have to?

   15. SPSpeaker0:37

       [cheering]

   16. MGMalcolm Gladwell0:37

       We have to. Adam and I had a bet when his, uh, team, the Detroit Lions, played my team, the Buffalo Bills, and you boldly predicted-

   17. AGAdam Grant0:48

       [laughs]

   18. MGMalcolm Gladwell0:48

       ... that your team would win, and you said loser had to wear the jersey of the opposing team to this event.

   19. SPSpeaker0:55

       [clapping]

   20. AGAdam Grant0:55

       [laughs]

   21. MGMalcolm Gladwell0:55

       Ladies and gentlemen, the loser.

   22. AGAdam Grant0:58

       I'm regret- I'm regretting that decision right now.

   23. MGMalcolm Gladwell1:00

       How does that feel to walk around with a Bills jersey?

   24. AGAdam Grant1:03

       [laughs] I mean, the Bills have suffered for a long time, much like my Lions. I, I'm feeling your pain quite literally right now.

   25. MGMalcolm Gladwell1:09

       Yeah. Are you gonna wear this, like, home with you? Are you gonna... You're not gonna take it off when you go backstage.

   26. AGAdam Grant1:14

       I, I was actually gonna gift it to you at the end.

   27. MGMalcolm Gladwell1:16

       [laughs] Okay.

   28. AGAdam Grant1:17

       First of all, Peloton, thank you Peloton for sponsoring us tonight. I have a Peloton Tread and bike at home, and training on them is my only shot at ever competing with Malcolm in a race, which he has not taken me up on yet, 'cause he knows he's gonna destroy me. But I had a chance to do a Peloton class yesterday, uh, where we w- we did a workout combined with a, a conversation about Vibe, and it was intense. Um, and I loved it. It wasn't just fun. Sweating together is social grease, and one of my favorite things about Peloton is you can start bringing some familiarity with other people and a sense of belonging into a workout even when you're not in the same room. So Peloton, thank you for sponsoring us.

   29. SPSpeaker1:53

       [clapping]

   30. MGMalcolm Gladwell1:53

       And I wanna, I wanna talk around the book. We're not gonna tell you what's in the book. You should read the book. My hope is that at least half of these questions you will never get again-
2. 2:59 – 5:04

   The three relationship roles: allies, pals, and companions

   1. MGMalcolm Gladwell2:59

      We should feel free to do that. So define for us those three categories, what they mean in your, in the context of your book, and then we'll, we'll dig into this.

   2. AGAdam Grant3:07

      All right. So there are basically three important kinds of people in your life, and I discovered this is true in pretty much every culture around the world. They have different terms for them. But I've come to think of them as allies, pals, and companions. So your allies are people that you pursue goals with. They're your favorite collaborators. Your pals are people you have fun with. You would love to invite them to play pickleball or karaoke or whatever your idea of a good time is. And your companions are people you confide in. Uh, they're the people whose shoulders you can cry on. They're the people who will drop everything to, to drive you to the hospital if there's an emergency. And I have found this to be such an eye-opening way to look at my own relationships, because before, I just used to call people friends or family or colleagues or neighbors, and that tells you how I know them, but it doesn't reveal anything about what purpose that relationship serves, and it certainly doesn't explain why some colleagues feel like friends and some friends feel like family and some family I would prefer to disown.

   3. MGMalcolm Gladwell4:03

      Hmm.

   4. AGAdam Grant4:03

      So Malcolm, what are we?

   5. MGMalcolm Gladwell4:04

      I think we're pals. Don't you think we're pals? I wouldn't be here if I w-

   6. AGAdam Grant4:08

      I mean, now, now I do.

   7. MGMalcolm Gladwell4:09

      No, I, I wouldn't have done this if we were allies.

   8. SPSpeaker4:13

      [laughs]

   9. MGMalcolm Gladwell4:13

      When I think of an ally, I think of a, of a transaction.

   10. AGAdam Grant4:16

       Oh, no, that's an associate.

   11. MGMalcolm Gladwell4:18

       Oh, that's an associate.

   12. AGAdam Grant4:18

       Yeah, that's the, that's the other category of, of transactional relationships where people just meet each other's needs.

   13. MGMalcolm Gladwell4:24

       But an ally are two people working towards some shared goal.

   14. AGAdam Grant4:27

       Yeah, we've got a common mission. I think we both love exploring ideas and-

   15. MGMalcolm Gladwell4:32

       Yeah, but the reason I'm here is I thought this would be really fun.

   16. SPSpeaker4:34

       [laughs]

   17. AGAdam Grant4:34

       Oh. Well, I did too.

   18. MGMalcolm Gladwell4:36

       I think of you as-- I think we pretend that we're allies, but we're actually pals.

   19. AGAdam Grant4:40

       So interesting, but we've never done pal activities together.

   20. SPSpeaker4:43

       [laughs]

   21. MGMalcolm Gladwell4:43

       This, this is a pal activity.

   22. SPSpeaker4:44

       [laughs]

   23. MGMalcolm Gladwell4:45

       That's... [laughs] Don't you think?

   24. AGAdam Grant4:49

       It's, I think it has pal energy, but for me it's an act of allyship, because you're helping me share my ideas and learn-

   25. MGMalcolm Gladwell4:55

       Yeah

   26. AGAdam Grant4:55

       ... new things about them, and I hope I do the same thing for you. And we're on a common mission to make people smarter and more curious and more open-minded.

3. 5:04 – 6:32

   When people disagree about the relationship—and why it can still work

   1. MGMalcolm Gladwell5:04

      Well, so there are several interesting places we can go from here. One is that you and I, there is a discrepancy in how we define our relationship, which I kind of like.

   2. SPSpeaker5:12

      [laughs]

   3. MGMalcolm Gladwell5:13

      I'm your ally, but you're my pal.

   4. AGAdam Grant5:14

      [laughs]

   5. SPSpeaker5:16

      [laughs]

   6. MGMalcolm Gladwell5:16

      Right?

   7. AGAdam Grant5:16

      But what if I don't wanna be your pal? You know what's interesting about this is in the research I've read, normally not being on the same page is a risk factor for a relationship-

   8. MGMalcolm Gladwell5:25

      Mm-hmm

   9. AGAdam Grant5:25

      ... because we have different expectations. And then, like, you're, you're goofing around, and I'm kind of annoyed by it, and I'm too task-focused, and you're irritated by that.

   10. MGMalcolm Gladwell5:34

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AGAdam Grant5:34

       But here there's a complementarity, I think.

   12. MGMalcolm Gladwell5:37

       Yeah. Well, that was one thing in the book actually that I had a question about, because my first instinct when I read about those three categories was to wonder about discrepancies. Because-

   13. AGAdam Grant5:47

       Yeah

   14. MGMalcolm Gladwell5:47

       ... I feel like in my own life- I enjoy relationships most when there is a discrepancy.

   15. AGAdam Grant5:54

       Hmm.

   16. MGMalcolm Gladwell5:54

       I find that really interesting, and what ends up happening is that you start to, the lines between those categories start to blur-

   17. AGAdam Grant6:02

       Yeah

   18. MGMalcolm Gladwell6:02

       ... if each person is bringing a different energy to the relationship.

   19. AGAdam Grant6:05

       Yeah, I completely missed that in the book, and I think you're right. I think the kinds of discrepancies I was thinking about were different, which is, are we on the same page about what we are supposed to give and what the other person is supposed to receive?

   20. MGMalcolm Gladwell6:16

       Hmm.

   21. AGAdam Grant6:16

       And if we're not aligned on that, if I want you to be my ally and you're only my pal, that's a recipe for bad interactions and maybe some distrust brewing. But I like this idea that you're my ally and I'm your pal.

   22. MGMalcolm Gladwell6:30

       And that's-

   23. AGAdam Grant6:30

       That's fun. We can be pal-lies.

   24. MGMalcolm Gladwell6:31

       [laughs]

4. 6:32 – 9:12

   Fluid relationships over time: trajectories and parenting as a case study

   1. MGMalcolm Gladwell6:32

      But also, these categories are, are fluid, right? That was the other question I had about those.

   2. AGAdam Grant6:37

      Yeah.

   3. MGMalcolm Gladwell6:38

      What's the trajectory? Is it that, do people naturally move from ally to pal to companion? Is that a kind of trajectory that people, it, that happens in relationships over time as people get closer?

   4. AGAdam Grant6:50

      They think it's supposed to, but it doesn't have to. I think this is a misconception. You can be close on any of these wavelengths, and they don't go in any particular order. There's not a hierarchy of them. Some people meet and go right to companionship. They end up engaging in what's called a disruptive disclosure, where they just kinda share something about, "Here's a moment from my upbringing that shaped me." Some people become allies or pals and never go to companionship, and I call those people men.

   5. SPSpeaker7:14

      [laughs]

   6. MGMalcolm Gladwell7:16

      Are these distinctions useful in understanding human development? So, a child, a baby is in a strictly transactional relationship, right? When they're born, they're just, they just want you to feed them and keep them warm. They're not giving anything back. Then, do you move a little bit into allies, where you have a, a shared goal to keep each, keep, you gotta keep the baby alive, the baby's gotta... And then you get to-

   7. AGAdam Grant7:39

      [laughs]

   8. MGMalcolm Gladwell7:39

      ... a little bit of, of, uh, wait, what's the next one?

   9. AGAdam Grant7:42

      Is this what you thought about when [laughs] , when your daughters were born?

   10. MGMalcolm Gladwell7:45

       No, I was just thinking... No.

   11. AGAdam Grant7:46

       Like, like, "How do I be a good, good dad? Gotta keep the baby alive."

   12. MGMalcolm Gladwell7:48

       No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no. I did not overthink this until right now.

   13. AGAdam Grant7:53

       [laughs] Oh, so it's my fault. I'm sorry.

   14. MGMalcolm Gladwell7:54

       It is, it is only your presence that causes me to overthink relationships in my life.

   15. AGAdam Grant7:58

       [laughs] I take full responsibility for that.

   16. MGMalcolm Gladwell8:00

       No. Like, we go through this, and then you end up in the place of, of, of, it's more than companionship, but I mean-

   17. AGAdam Grant8:06

       Yeah

   18. MGMalcolm Gladwell8:06

       ... there's clearly a point in your, I have young children now, so I think about this, in the trajectory of raising a child, in the beginning, it is just pure, like, they're just like, everything's about them, "Feed me, come running when I cry," blah, blah, blah. And then you watch their kind of relationship with you evolve over time.

   19. AGAdam Grant8:21

       Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. I've never thought about this. I think that's right. I think what you haven't seen yet, 'cause your, your daughters are still little, is what happens when your kids start to become little adults. So as of last week, we have three teenagers-

   20. MGMalcolm Gladwell8:33

       Oh my God

   21. AGAdam Grant8:33

       ... which is a, which is a crazy thought. And I have watched some of our friends who have slightly older kids really struggle with the transition into being a parent to adult children. And what happens is, like, their kids are looking for, you know, kind of distant allies to respect their independence, and they're still stuck in full companion mode.

   22. MGMalcolm Gladwell8:52

       Yeah.

   23. AGAdam Grant8:52

       Or, in other cases, what I've seen is kids are actually looking for companionship, and the parents only know how to be pals, and so it's a constant letdown. And I think that's hard, and I think you're right. The fluidity is really important. And as a parent, getting on the same page with your kids about, "What do you need from me and how do I show up for you?" is a critical conversation to have.

5. 9:12 – 11:42

   The energy cost of companionship: grief, boundaries, and enmeshment

   1. MGMalcolm Gladwell9:12

      Yeah. The other thing that I thought about those three distinctions was there's very different levels of energy that are associated with those roles. So, companionship is a very kind of consuming, demanding, and it can be hard to be a constant companion to someone. Uh, the reason I thought of it, about this is that I have a friend who, a very cl- old and close friend of mine who lost a child recently. And I went to the funeral, and I saw him, and he was walking around, and he said something he'd never said to me. I've known him my whole life. He said, "Walk with me and tell me something that will distract me." He needed something in that moment from me that I'd never actually had to give him before.

   2. AGAdam Grant9:57

      Wow.

   3. MGMalcolm Gladwell9:57

      Right? We, although he's, I'm very, very, very close to him, our primary mode was we were pals in the greatest sense of that word. He's an incredibly brilliant... His mind is just delightful. You can hang out, you know. But in that moment, he needed something more. Now, I can't be in that mode with him. I don't think either of us wanna be in that mode-

   4. AGAdam Grant10:16

      No

   5. MGMalcolm Gladwell10:17

      ... o- other than in that crucial moment.

   6. AGAdam Grant10:19

      Yeah.

   7. MGMalcolm Gladwell10:19

      So I thought of, like, there is this sort of toggling that can take place, and we will eventually re- go back to our pal mode. But he needed something more.

   8. AGAdam Grant10:30

      Yeah. I think you're right that companionship is often the most draining of the relationships, but it doesn't have to be. I think there's a huge difference between showing compassion for somebody else and crossing the line from empathy to what's called enmeshment-

   9. MGMalcolm Gladwell10:47

      Right

   10. AGAdam Grant10:47

       ... where you start to blur another person's needs and your own. And I, I think about this every time I hear somebody say, "I wanna be needed." And my first reaction is, "I don't think you understand what it's like to be needed. You do not wanna be needed by another human being. You wanna be valued." Because if someone needs you, that means they are totally dependent on you, and they expect you to drop everything whenever they have an issue. That's a recipe for an unbalanced, one-sided relationship, unless you're, you know, you're both suffering and creating [laughs] shared trauma together, which I would not necessarily wish on anyone.

   11. MGMalcolm Gladwell11:19

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AGAdam Grant11:20

       Um, I think what's much healthier is to say, "Look, let's set some boundaries around compassion. I don't have to feel your feelings to care about your feelings. I wanna maintain some distance so that I can show up for you when it doesn't cost me too much."

   13. MGMalcolm Gladwell11:32

       Yeah, yeah. Um, can I go to my questions now?

   14. AGAdam Grant11:34

       Oh, yeah. Sorry, I didn't mean to, uh, sidetrack you.

   15. MGMalcolm Gladwell11:36

       No, no, no.

   16. AGAdam Grant11:36

       You're in charge here, Malcolm.

   17. MGMalcolm Gladwell11:37

       No, no.

   18. AGAdam Grant11:37

       This is your show. This is your town. You have home court advantage. Go for it.

6. 11:42 – 16:44

   Nerd identity: stigma, adolescence, and finding your people

   1. MGMalcolm Gladwell11:42

      When you were a kid, this is gonna seem like a digression, but it's gonna circle back.

   2. AGAdam Grant11:46

      I l- I love that preview.

   3. MGMalcolm Gladwell11:48

      It's actually cr- it's crucial to the enterprise here. Uh, when you were a kid, you were a nerd.

   4. AGAdam Grant11:53

      Were? Yeah, and I still am.

   5. MGMalcolm Gladwell11:55

      Okay, good. That-

   6. AGAdam Grant11:55

      That checks out, right?

   7. MGMalcolm Gladwell11:56

      That was my second question.

   8. AGAdam Grant11:57

      [laughs]

   9. MGMalcolm Gladwell11:57

      Um, in your mind, what is the definition of a nerd?

   10. AGAdam Grant12:02

       I think, uh, my favorite definition of a nerd [laughs] is that-

   11. MGMalcolm Gladwell12:05

       By the way, only a nerd-

   12. AGAdam Grant12:07

       Would have-

   13. MGMalcolm Gladwell12:07

       ... a favorite definition of a nerd.

   14. SPSpeaker12:09

       [laughs]

   15. AGAdam Grant12:11

       Well [laughs]

   16. MGMalcolm Gladwell12:12

       There's a variety.

   17. AGAdam Grant12:13

       [laughs]

   18. MGMalcolm Gladwell12:14

       You've reviewed them all.

   19. AGAdam Grant12:15

       [laughs]

   20. MGMalcolm Gladwell12:15

       Looked at the evidence. And you've chosen number four.

   21. SPSpeaker12:18

       [laughs]

   22. MGMalcolm Gladwell12:18

       What is... So what's the favorite one?

   23. AGAdam Grant12:20

       Well, an, an, an ally of mine actually sent me once a Venn diagram that-

   24. MGMalcolm Gladwell12:25

       Right

   25. AGAdam Grant12:25

       ... broke this down, and if I can reconstruct it, it was very good. I think it had, like, intelligence, esoteric interests, and social skills. And a nerd has the first two, but not the third.

   26. MGMalcolm Gladwell12:36

       [laughs]

   27. SPSpeaker12:38

       [laughs]

   28. MGMalcolm Gladwell12:38

       Um, why does that word, nerd, have stigma in our society attached to it?

   29. AGAdam Grant12:44

       I think because of the lack of social skills.

   30. MGMalcolm Gladwell12:46

       Yeah, but intelligence and esoteric interests get trumped by social skills?
7. 16:44 – 19:33

   A grand unified theory of Adam Grant’s books: ‘the nerd landscape’

   1. MGMalcolm Gladwell16:44

      So I was thinking, you know, I like to do, what I like to do is to generate what, grand unified theories of things, and so I thought it would be really fun tonight to generate a grand unified theory of Adam Grant's work. Okay. So your first book was Give and Take.

   2. AGAdam Grant16:58

      Right.

   3. MGMalcolm Gladwell16:58

      Which was all about really the value that comes from helping others. And there's a, there's a reading of that which is the nerd says, "Don't bully me. It's p- possible for us to have a productive relationship."

   4. AGAdam Grant17:12

      Ooh.

   5. MGMalcolm Gladwell17:12

      Then you wrote a book called Originals, and I'll just read to you the subtitle: How Non-Conformists Move the World.

   6. SPSpeaker17:18

      [laughs]

   7. MGMalcolm Gladwell17:19

      That's the nerd manifesto.

   8. AGAdam Grant17:20

      [laughs]

   9. SPSpeaker17:22

      [laughs]

   10. MGMalcolm Gladwell17:23

       Then, then you wrote a book called Think Again, right? The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know. That's the nerd asking to be reconsidered in the eyes of the world, right?

   11. AGAdam Grant17:32

       It's also the nerd saying, "You don't know what you're talking about." [laughs]

   12. MGMalcolm Gladwell17:36

       Exactly. Exactly. Then you wrote a book called Hidden Potential, which is what the nerd says to the, in the failed interaction with the girl at the age of 14. "I have potential. You can't see it yet."

   13. SPSpeaker17:46

       [laughs]

   14. MGMalcolm Gladwell17:47

       "But just, just you wait till I'm 30."

   15. AGAdam Grant17:49

       [laughs]

   16. SPSpeaker17:50

       [laughs]

   17. AGAdam Grant17:50

       Yeah, I don't, I don't remember ever having that conversation.

   18. MGMalcolm Gladwell17:53

       And now we have Vibe: The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World. Your world's lonely, Adam.

   19. AGAdam Grant17:59

       Not anymore

   20. MGMalcolm Gladwell18:00

       But your whole, I think of your work as, as just a serie- You're, you have delineated the kind of nerd landscape. In each of your works, you have articulated one of the central, and I think deeply important, dimensions of the nerd world, right?

   21. AGAdam Grant18:18

       Yeah. I've, I've never seen this pattern before, and I now, I feel a little guilty that there are very few live long and prospers in my book, and, or in any of the books I've written. Like, I feel like I've under-referenced Star Trek.

   22. MGMalcolm Gladwell18:29

       [laughs] You should just-

   23. AGAdam Grant18:31

       Not fully serving the nerd audience

   24. MGMalcolm Gladwell18:32

       [laughs] You should... But I would venture to say, so I was, then I was thinking, the other thing that's interesting about your work is that it's been enormously successful. You've struck a, a real chord with your audience, and I'm wondering, and we have the audience here, and I was wondering, well, how many of us are, who love your books, are nerds?

   25. AGAdam Grant18:50

       Are we gonna poll the audience?

   26. MGMalcolm Gladwell18:51

       Yes.

   27. AGAdam Grant18:52

       Yeah, let's do it.

   28. MGMalcolm Gladwell18:52

       Raise your hand.

   29. AGAdam Grant18:53

       Can we get the house lights up a little? And if we relax the social skills part and just say intelligence plus having really intense interests in specific things, how many people would raise their hands then? Okay, that's more.

   30. MGMalcolm Gladwell19:04

       That's more. So-
8. 19:33 – 22:46

   Inside Adam’s mind and schedule: being a ‘human LLM’ and embracing inefficiency

   1. MGMalcolm Gladwell19:33

      Oh. [audience cheering] One of the great delights of being your friend is I occasionally email you out of the blue, as I did several weeks ago, and I asked you an incredibly nerdy question. I wanted to have some insight as to why certain kinds of new ideas have difficulty gaining traction. Why does it take so long? It doesn't take long to come up with the new thing. It takes a long time to convince people to use the new thing. And you're like, five minutes pass, and then boom, in my inbox, it's like all these papers, which I read, and I was like, "This is brilliant. This is better than ChatGPT."

   2. AGAdam Grant20:10

      [laughs]

   3. MGMalcolm Gladwell20:11

      This is Adam at his absolute greatest. And it made me wonder, let's ta- I wanna t- I wanna, I wanna get a sense of how your mind w- works and how your day looks, 'cause I don't understand, how do you do all this?

   4. AGAdam Grant20:23

      Well, they're, they're all part-time jobs, right?

   5. MGMalcolm Gladwell20:26

      No. So walk me through a typical Adam day.

   6. AGAdam Grant20:28

      Well, I wan- I wanna talk about your emails for a second because you send me the nerdiest questions of anyone I know, by far.

   7. MGMalcolm Gladwell20:35

      I go to you because I know you have a certain kind of specialty that I'm very, very interested in.

   8. AGAdam Grant20:41

      And sometimes you then are disappointed, [laughs] like, "Well, what, what are you doing as an organizational psychologist then-"

   9. MGMalcolm Gladwell20:46

      Oh, I have-

   10. AGAdam Grant20:46

       "... if you don't know this thing?"

   11. MGMalcolm Gladwell20:47

       Oh, yeah. [laughs]

   12. AGAdam Grant20:48

       You're, you-

   13. MGMalcolm Gladwell20:48

       No, but I have you on a pedestal, and when you fail to live up to my lofty expectations, I get bummed out.

   14. AGAdam Grant20:53

       Well, I, I'm glad to disappoint you from time to time. I, I think you, what you should know is that whenever you send me an email looking for an explanation or some data, it is the best procrastination in my day because it's way easier to solve other people's problems than it is your own.

   15. MGMalcolm Gladwell21:09

       Yeah.

   16. AGAdam Grant21:09

       And, like, how many times have you come up with a great title for somebody else's book but struggled to title your own? Having a little bit of distance from the problem gives you perspective that is missing when you're, you're in the weeds. And so, like, I, it just makes my day when you say, "Hey, how would you explain this thing?" And I'm like, "Aha." I can spend 10 minutes-

   17. MGMalcolm Gladwell21:29

       Oh

   18. AGAdam Grant21:29

       ... feeling useful-

   19. MGMalcolm Gladwell21:30

       Yeah

   20. AGAdam Grant21:30

       ... and having fun, and I'm gonna feel more productive in those 10 minutes than the rest of my week combined.

   21. MGMalcolm Gladwell21:37

       Yeah. Wait, so how many-

   22. AGAdam Grant21:38

       It's a gift

   23. MGMalcolm Gladwell21:39

       ... people do use you the way I use you as a human LLM? Is this a, are, are there like 20 of us who are sending you these emails?

   24. AGAdam Grant21:46

       There are probably a few hundred who show up with some regularity.

   25. MGMalcolm Gladwell21:52

       Are you conscious of trying to live your life as efficiently as possible?

   26. AGAdam Grant21:56

       I used to be, and I've actually tried to become less efficient because I think-

   27. MGMalcolm Gladwell21:59

       What does that mean? In the Adam universe, what is less efficient mean?

   28. AGAdam Grant22:01

       Well, I, I used to worry about wasting time, and I would think about like, "Oh, I had five minutes today that I could have spent more productively, and I could have either gotten something done or learned something or helped someone. Like, why am I not making the most of my time?" And I think I've, with the benefit of a little bit more life experience, realized usually my best ideas come when I'm actually not focused on getting anything done. And also, that's when some of my best interactions and relationships are built. And so I've just tried to be more patient about how my time is used.

   29. MGMalcolm Gladwell22:32

       Do you compare yourself to your peers at work when it comes to productivity and-

   30. AGAdam Grant22:37

       No.
9. 22:46 – 28:31

   Work as modeling: what kids learn from watching (not hearing) parents

   1. MGMalcolm Gladwell22:46

      Do your, your kids observe you working?

   2. AGAdam Grant22:48

      They try not to.

   3. MGMalcolm Gladwell22:48

      No, but I'm, I don't mean this in a-

   4. AGAdam Grant22:50

      Yeah

   5. MGMalcolm Gladwell22:50

      ... in a negative way, but what lessons do you think you're imparting to your kids with the way that you conduct your work life?

   6. AGAdam Grant22:56

      I think, I hope my kids are learning three things from watching me work. The first is that, like, I treat flow states as precious. It's one of the reasons I run late for a lot of things, is when I get fully absorbed in a project or a task, I don't know when that's gonna happen again, and I don't wanna cut it off prematurely. And so they will see me, when I have an idea, disappear into my office for a couple hours. And I hope they're learning that it's possible to be intrinsically motivated at work. It's possible to love your job. I think that's an important lesson for kids to learn. Secondly, I think that they, I hope they see that I really love helping people and connecting people. And probably a third of the time that they wander into my office, when they ask me what I'm up to, I'll say, "Oh, like I just, I thought of two people who really need to know each other, and I'm checking with both of them to make sure that they're open to the introduction." Or, "Somebody sent me an email asking, can you make organizational psychology sense of this?" And this is the kind of problem that, that makes my day. And then third, I hope they're learning that work that's intrinsically motivating is not always fun moment to moment.

   7. MGMalcolm Gladwell24:00

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AGAdam Grant24:00

      Like, working on hard problems is sometimes really frustrating, and it's okay to experience the frustration and push through it.

   9. MGMalcolm Gladwell24:07

      I ask that only because when I look back on my relationship with my father In retrospect, the single most important thing that he did to influence who I am is to work the way he did. He would go every morning -- He was a man not dissimilar to you in many ways. But he would get up every morning and he would go, he worked at home a lot, he would go into his study and he would just work solidly, take a break, have tea with my mom, work solidly. And it never seemed like drudgery.

   10. AGAdam Grant24:36

       Yeah.

   11. MGMalcolm Gladwell24:37

       You had to respect his time, and when it was over, it was over. Like it was, there was a point at which he stopped and went on, and I observed this my entire childhood, and it left an enormous impression on me.

   12. AGAdam Grant24:49

       Wow.

   13. MGMalcolm Gladwell24:50

       Like I, I, I feel his spirit when I'm working 'cause I saw that. And all the other things, the parenting things, I've forgotten all the other ones.

   14. AGAdam Grant24:59

       I think this is one of the, the fundamental things that parents get wrong, is they think that kids are gonna be influenced by their words, but it's much more their actions that matter. And I think we all know this intuitively. We've heard that actions speak louder than words. I don't think that parents really stop to think about my kids are not going to follow what I say, they're gonna observe what I do, and you've got a choice between being a good role model and being a cycle that needs to be broken. Make the right choice.

   15. MGMalcolm Gladwell25:25

       Yeah. Yeah.

   16. AGAdam Grant25:26

       But I love that you learned that from your dad, and I can, I mean, I can see that spirit in the way that even you interact, right? Which is you, [laughs] you bring a certain whimsy and joy-

   17. MGMalcolm Gladwell25:36

       Mm

   18. AGAdam Grant25:36

       ... to exploring ideas that, like for me, when I was in college, you were one of the first people to legitimate intellectual curiosity outside of the classroom. Like I remember the tipping point coming out when, okay, this is gonna age you a little bit. I think it came out, like I think I was, I was finishing my freshman year of college, maybe starting sophomore year.

   19. MGMalcolm Gladwell25:55

       Yeah.

   20. AGAdam Grant25:56

       And all of a sudden it was cool to talk about ideas outside of class, and I mean, if your dad gave that to you, that is an extraordinary gift.

   21. MGMalcolm Gladwell26:04

       Yeah.

   22. AGAdam Grant26:04

       But it's also a great gift that you gave to me and so many other authors.

   23. MGMalcolm Gladwell26:07

       Oh, that's very kind, Adam. [audience applauding]

   24. AGAdam Grant26:10

       Why is it easier to connect with people when we're doing something together? When two acquaintances sit down face to face for a meal, it can be awkward. But put those same two people side by side on a walk or run, and they often slide into a natural rhythm of conversation. You're sharing an experience, and your bodies are quite literally moving in the same direction. That matters because connection isn't only something we create through words. It's something we build through synchrony. That's one of the things I love about Peloton. At first glance, a workout can look like an individual activity. You get on a bike or tread, put on your headphones, and start moving. But the experience can be remarkably social because you have an instructor encouraging you. You can see other people moving alongside you. There are high fives, leaderboards, shared milestones, and all of these little signals that remind you you're not alone. That's a powerful psychological shift. And the connection can go beyond that moment in class. When you keep showing up, you start noticing familiar names on the leaderboard. You recognize the people who gravitate toward the same instructors. Those little moments of recognition can turn into encouragement, online friendships, and sometimes even connections that carry into real life. That's what makes Peloton interesting is the bridge between exercising on your own and feeling connected to other people. You don't have to be in the same room to start building a sense of familiarity or belonging. I'm a big Peloton fan, and their new Tread Flex is designed to make movement easier to fit into your actual life. It's movable and foldable, so you can walk, run, or hike when you want to, and move it out of the way when you don't. It doesn't matter how big or how small your space is. You don't need a perfect home gym to make movement part of your life. You just need a little space and a reason to start. Movement doesn't have to be solitary. It can be a way of getting out of your own head, into your body, and in tune with others. Discover the Peloton community at onepeloton.com. [audience applauding]

   25. MGMalcolm Gladwell28:01

       I wanna go back to something you said just a few moments ago.

   26. AGAdam Grant28:03

       Notice how quickly he changes the subject. Malcolm does not like to be the center of attention.

   27. MGMalcolm Gladwell28:08

       Since I'm getting a little uncomfortable, um, let's go back-- I wanna go back to something you said. So parents obsess too much about the things they say to their children and not, don't worry nearly enough about the example they're setting, right?

   28. AGAdam Grant28:20

       Yeah.

   29. MGMalcolm Gladwell28:21

       Their actions. This is an example of an idea, or this is an example of a way in which we are, uh, exercise lay psychology and are wrong, right?

   30. AGAdam Grant28:30

       Yeah.

10. 28:31 – 30:14

    Lay psychology myths: why frenemies can be worse than enemies

    1. MGMalcolm Gladwell28:31

       And a lot of your work, in particular this book, is about exposing all the w- all the kind of psychological theories we have about everyday life that are incorrect, right? We're gonna briefly talk about the book. Pick your favorite, uh, misperception, psychological misperception from the book.

    2. AGAdam Grant28:46

       Favorite? This is like choosing a favorite s- a favorite child.

    3. MGMalcolm Gladwell28:49

       Doesn't have to be your favorite. Just pick one because-

    4. AGAdam Grant28:50

       I'll give, I'll give you one.

    5. MGMalcolm Gladwell28:51

       Okay.

    6. AGAdam Grant28:51

       It's in vogue to talk about toxic relationships, and then to say, "Okay, that person is, is not healthy for me. I'm gonna cut them off and go no contact." And most people think that the people that you should distance yourself from are your greatest enemies, your adversaries, the people that you see only vices in. And empirically, that is not true. Even worse for your wellbeing and even your physical health than your enemies are your frenemies. People that you have ambivalent relationships with, this has been studied for decades by psychologists like Burt Uchino and Michele Duffy. What they show is if you have both positive and negative feelings about someone, if you appreciate their virtues, but you also can't stand their vices, you are experiencing higher blood pressure when you interact with that person. Uh, they are more likely to cause your heart rate to spike, and you even are more vulnerable to m- to cardiovascular disease if you have more ambivalent ties in your life. And I mean, that, that was just eye-opening for me to say, "You know what? Like I have felt that. I have felt that I don't know if this person is leaning in for a hug or if I should brace myself for a brawl." And constantly having to predict their behavior and manage, are we gonna like each other or are we gonna be at each other's throats? That is draining, and it's actually physically unhealthy, and so that, that's one of my favorites.

11. 30:14 – 32:17

    Are we actually bad at intuition? Adam’s debate with Kahneman

    1. MGMalcolm Gladwell30:14

       So we've now, you've now identified Two ideas that we hold about how to make sense of the world that are not true. Why are we such bad lay psychologists? Shouldn't we be good at that kinda thing? You're describing really, really core ... So the one, the example you just gave is an incredibly core notion about how to manage our friendship circles, our emotional lives, our psychological state, and you're saying that on this most fundamental of questions, who should you associate with or not associate, we're just, we're just wrong. Why would we be wrong?

    2. AGAdam Grant30:48

       Well, I don't think we're bad intuitive psychologists. I actually think we are good on average, and what we study in psychology are often the outlier cases. I had a debate with Danny Kahneman about this. So s- some people have probably read Thinking Fast and Slow. Danny, he arguably was the greatest psychologist in history, the only one ever to win a Nobel Prize. And I had the, the great fortune of being mentored by him in probably the last decade of his life. And one day, Danny told me that he was skeptical of an article because the findings went against his intuition. And I said, "Danny, that's confirmation bias, which by the way, you helped to put on the map. Don't you think you should be questioning your assumptions?" And he said, "No, I think most human intuitions about behavior are right, and I think the burden of proof should be higher when a finding is counterintuitive."

    3. MGMalcolm Gladwell31:36

       Mm-hmm.

    4. AGAdam Grant31:36

       And I was really bothered by that, and the more I thought about it, the more I realized he was onto something because I think most of the time when, when we run studies in psychology, we support our intuitions, and that's why most of the findings in our academic journals are boring and obvious and predictable. But sometimes it's still helpful to gather evidence for them to confirm an intuition. But I think where, where my attention is really piqued is when rigorous, replicated, transparent studies by different labs come out with some findings that are surprising or unex- unexpected. They don't have to be counterintuitive. Sometimes they just have to be non-intuitive, and I think we should spend most of our time there because that's where we have the most to teach. But it doesn't mean we're bad at this in general.

12. 32:17 – 36:19

    Dating compatibility: why algorithms fail and ‘similarity’ doesn’t sustain love

    1. MGMalcolm Gladwell32:17

       But if I might gently push back, one of the reasons this is such an interesting book is it's full of all kinds of things that run counter to our intuitions. Let me give you another example, perhaps the most, what I thought was one of the most striking examples in the book. It's early on, and you're talking about dating and compatibil- romantic compatibility.

    2. AGAdam Grant32:33

       Yep.

    3. MGMalcolm Gladwell32:34

       And you point out that the notion that drives a lot of dating websites is completely unsupported by the evidence. In other words, if you try and match up people on the basis of shared interests or some other algorithmic compatibility, there's no evidence to suggest that's a good idea, right?

    4. AGAdam Grant32:49

       At least when it comes to dating. The best available machine learning techniques, this is out of Eli Finkel's lab. What they do is they ask you to go on a series of speed dates, but before that, you filled out an exhaustive questionnaire. It's about 200 dimensions, every conceivable aspect of your personality to try to figure out what you're like and also everything you might want in a partner. And then they look at, okay, which combinations are good matches and which ones aren't? And it turns out the algorithm is a random walk. It does nothing. So all of the dating algorithms, all of the apps, all of the websites, they claim they're gonna match you up with your soulmate. They are lying to you or they're lying to themselves.

    5. MGMalcolm Gladwell33:34

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AGAdam Grant33:34

       There's no evidence that we can do this, and the reason for that is we have a broken model of what compatibility is. We think that compatibility is similarity between traits or maybe opposite traits, and so we think either birds of a feather will flock together or opposites will attract, and that is ultimately not true because it's not your separate traits that drive your interaction. It's the unique dynamic that evolves when the two of you meet. And so you can't predict what, [laughs] what, what people are gonna be like until you've actually seen them talk or do activities together, and yeah, I think you're right. I think that's a great example of our intuitive psychology is just wrong. But there are still some nuanced truths in that.

    7. MGMalcolm Gladwell34:14

       Hmm.

    8. AGAdam Grant34:15

       So when you look at the idea that, that similarity attracts, that is true. We do gravitate toward people who have the same personality traits as us, similar backgrounds to us. We even like interacting with people who smell similar to us. Yes, that is a research finding.

    9. MGMalcolm Gladwell34:32

       Hmm.

    10. AGAdam Grant34:32

        If someone's odor resembles yours, you get along with them better. But the question is what happens after the initial attraction, and at that point, similarity becomes irrelevant. It's not whether you're objectively similar that drives whether you maintain a bond or whether you get close. It's whether you feel similar to each other-

    11. MGMalcolm Gladwell34:48

        Mm-hmm

    12. AGAdam Grant34:48

        ... which is all about what you discover about each other and what you develop in each other. And so compatibility is not something we can gauge upfront. It's actually something we build over time.

    13. MGMalcolm Gladwell34:59

        But if, Adam, if ... Let, let's pause on this 'cause it's a really important point, I think. How do ... W- Dating websites are a multi-billion dollar business. They are persisting on the basis of a, of a complete misapprehension about how dating works. How do they keep going? Is it just that you're cycling people through and no one ever figures out?

    14. AGAdam Grant35:17

        Maybe. But I think what you did in Blink is you captured something that a lot of people wanna believe, which is you have a gut feeling or an intuition about other people that is often more reliable than your careful, rational analysis, and there are situations where that's true, and you wrote about them. People way overgeneralize how often that's true, and they're constantly relying on their first impressions of other people, which are frequently wrong. Let's take the, the famous Nalini Ambady studies, um, of thin slicing. It's really easy to tell when you watch a professor for 10 seconds, are they passionate? Are they enthusiastic? You can predict their teaching ratings. You know what you can't tell watching them for 10 seconds? Are they g- gonna be a good wife or a good husband?

    15. MGMalcolm Gladwell36:01

        Hmm.

    16. AGAdam Grant36:02

        Are they gonna be a great collaborator? Because you are just watching them perform in one narrow situation and one role. And I think we like to believe that when we get a narrow slice of one person, we can then generalize that to what they're like in all kinds of situations and interactions, and that is just not true.

13. 36:19 – 38:27

    If Adam ran dating apps: reference-checked profiles and multi-context ‘tryouts’

    1. MGMalcolm Gladwell36:19

       Yeah. So wait, if I made you America's dating czar and-

    2. AGAdam Grant36:23

       [laughs] Not qualified.

    3. MGMalcolm Gladwell36:25

       No, no, no, hold on. Hold on. And I put you in charge of the online business of helping people find a soulmate, what does it look like?

    4. AGAdam Grant36:33

       Wow. I have never thought about this question before.

    5. MGMalcolm Gladwell36:36

       You wrote a book called Vibe.

    6. AGAdam Grant36:37

       [laughs]

    7. SPSpeaker36:39

       [laughs]

    8. MGMalcolm Gladwell36:39

       Is there a way to fix the dating app, is what I'm saying?

    9. AGAdam Grant36:41

       So yes, I would do a few things. First of all, you're not allowed to write your own profile. Other people who know you well-

    10. MGMalcolm Gladwell36:48

        Oh, I like that

    11. AGAdam Grant36:48

        ... get to submit anonymously descriptions of you.

    12. SPSpeaker36:51

        [laughs]

    13. MGMalcolm Gladwell36:51

        Yeah. I like that.

    14. AGAdam Grant36:53

        And what you do is you nominate three or four people that you trust, and then they get to enlist the other people that they think will be honest in seeing both your strengths and your shortcomings.

    15. MGMalcolm Gladwell37:05

        Mm-hmm.

    16. AGAdam Grant37:06

        So let's get the real profile. This is like doing a reference check as opposed to a job interview.

    17. MGMalcolm Gladwell37:10

        Yeah.

    18. AGAdam Grant37:10

        Let's begin there.

    19. MGMalcolm Gladwell37:11

        With a reference check, okay.

    20. AGAdam Grant37:12

        Okay, what else do we wanna do? I think the second thing you do then is you have to, before you decide whether you're a match or not, you have to interact with them in three different kinds of situations.

    21. MGMalcolm Gladwell37:23

        Give me an example of a kind of situation.

    22. AGAdam Grant37:25

        So you go to a haunted house together.

    23. MGMalcolm Gladwell37:28

        A haunted house. How old are these people?

    24. SPSpeaker37:30

        [laughs]

    25. AGAdam Grant37:32

        Come on. You, you read the book. You know there is evidence that if you go to a haunted house-

    26. MGMalcolm Gladwell37:36

        Haunted house

    27. AGAdam Grant37:36

        ... with people-

    28. MGMalcolm Gladwell37:37

        Okay

    29. AGAdam Grant37:37

        ... as long as you debrief it afterward, it accelerates your bond.

    30. MGMalcolm Gladwell37:40

        Okay.
14. 38:27 – 46:04

    Office romance, arranged marriage, and the limits of ‘choice’

    1. MGMalcolm Gladwell38:27

       Those are all things that people do together when they're working together, and yet we have in recent years begun to frown on office romances. Is that really a dumb idea, office romance? Or-

    2. AGAdam Grant38:38

       [laughs]

    3. MGMalcolm Gladwell38:38

       ... is it a dumb idea to frown on office romances?

    4. AGAdam Grant38:40

       [laughs]

    5. MGMalcolm Gladwell38:41

       Because in of- we- you're essentially, you are, you're in an emotionally intense thing.

    6. AGAdam Grant38:45

       [laughs]

    7. MGMalcolm Gladwell38:45

       You solve problems together. You're doing s- the equivalent of a physical activity if you're work- what, so you're, you're crossing... This is how you meet people-

    8. AGAdam Grant38:53

       [laughs]

    9. MGMalcolm Gladwell38:53

       ... and know whether you like, and then we simultaneously say in this instance, "No, actually, you're not allowed to date the person you're working with." Why do we say that?

    10. AGAdam Grant39:00

        Oh, I, I think we can go back to we have a problem with the behavior of some men who are responsible in positions of power-

    11. SPSpeaker39:08

        [laughs]

    12. AGAdam Grant39:09

        ... for making women uncomfortable and abusing their power and causing harassment. And by the way, my, my read of the evidence on this, there is a powerful paper, paper on this by Jennifer Berdahl. It's called The Sexual Harassment of Uppity Women, and what she shows is this, sexual harassment is not predicted by attraction. It's predicted by feeling that a woman is a threat to your power as a man because she's strong and competent, and that just needs to stop.

    13. MGMalcolm Gladwell39:38

        Yeah.

    14. SPSpeaker39:38

        [laughs]

    15. MGMalcolm Gladwell39:39

        No, no, no one's, I don't think anyone's denying that office romances can go sideways. They can produce difficulty. They can be abuse. But what if that is the single best way to find someone who's, you're compatible with?

    16. AGAdam Grant39:53

        I mean-

    17. MGMalcolm Gladwell39:53

        Is it worth the risk?

    18. AGAdam Grant39:54

        I don't know. I'd like to see better data on it. I, I worry a lot about office breakups and-

    19. MGMalcolm Gladwell39:59

        Yeah

    20. AGAdam Grant39:59

        ... the effect that that has on the dynamics in the office, and I don't know if the benefits are worth the costs. I know that Southwest Airlines used to encourage people to marry their coworkers, and that was when I started to wonder if they were becoming a cult.

    21. MGMalcolm Gladwell40:12

        Yeah.

    22. SPSpeaker40:12

        [laughs]

    23. MGMalcolm Gladwell40:13

        Another topic on this that I was wondering that whether you would bring up and didn't-

    24. AGAdam Grant40:18

        [laughs]

    25. MGMalcolm Gladwell40:19

        ... was arranged marriages.

    26. AGAdam Grant40:21

        Oh.

    27. MGMalcolm Gladwell40:22

        So if compatibility, standard metrics about compatibility are not terribly useful, and if a lot of our kind of-

    28. AGAdam Grant40:31

        Oh, I see where you're going with this.

    29. MGMalcolm Gladwell40:33

        And if what, what you w- the first thing that you said that you wanted was third parties to enter the fray-

    30. AGAdam Grant40:39

        [laughs]
15. 46:04 – 55:47

    Contrived identities vs. astrology—and ending with the ‘leaf raking party’ lesson

    1. MGMalcolm Gladwell46:04

       You have a l- a, a lovely chapter in the book, one of my favorites, when you tell the story of how a principal goes to a school that was kind of broken and not working, and one of the ways he solves it is by, he divides up the school into houses, and each house has its own identity, and the kids coalesce around these identities, and the school starts to function once he's divided. And you talk about that.

    2. AGAdam Grant46:28

       It's Hogwarts, basically.

    3. SPSpeaker46:29

       [laughs]

    4. MGMalcolm Gladwell46:29

       Yeah. It's Hogwarts, and how a contrived sense of identity is actually really useful.

    5. AGAdam Grant46:35

       Yeah.

    6. MGMalcolm Gladwell46:35

       Okay? You agree with this?

    7. AGAdam Grant46:36

       It can be. I don't think it should be used.

    8. MGMalcolm Gladwell46:39

       Adam, yes or no, a contrived sense of identity can be very useful. Can.

    9. AGAdam Grant46:43

       Begrudgingly, yes.

    10. MGMalcolm Gladwell46:44

        Okay.

    11. AGAdam Grant46:45

        Much worse than a meaningful identity, but go on.

    12. MGMalcolm Gladwell46:48

        You are, have been known famously as a massive critic of astrology.

    13. AGAdam Grant46:53

        Well, that's because it's made up.

    14. MGMalcolm Gladwell46:54

        Oh, oh, oh, oh.

    15. SPSpeaker46:55

        [laughs]

    16. AGAdam Grant46:55

        There's no science to support it whatsoever.

    17. MGMalcolm Gladwell46:58

        That's because it's made up. You mean like the identity of the houses that works so well?

    18. AGAdam Grant47:02

        Yes.

    19. SPSpeaker47:02

        [laughs]

    20. AGAdam Grant47:03

        Yes.

    21. MGMalcolm Gladwell47:04

        Adam-

    22. AGAdam Grant47:04

        Yes, and this is why it bothers me

    23. MGMalcolm Gladwell47:05

        ... it's the same, it's the same thing.

    24. AGAdam Grant47:06

        I know. This is why people get duped by astrology.

    25. MGMalcolm Gladwell47:09

        No. Wait a second.

    26. AGAdam Grant47:10

        It's an arbitrary identity-

    27. MGMalcolm Gladwell47:12

        You just-

    28. AGAdam Grant47:12

        ... that they cling to

    29. MGMalcolm Gladwell47:12

        ... it's, you just have a whole chapter in your book on the value of an arbitrary identity, and then there's a whole system that people have to essentially create houses.

    30. AGAdam Grant47:20

        Oh. I'm a Virgo.

Episode duration: 55:47