From $0 to $9M: How an Immigrant Turned Failure Into Fortune | Jenny Lei, Freja

Marina Mogilko 0:00 now your business makes over $10 million in revenue annually.

Jenny Lei 0:04 I love New York. If I wanna stay in this country, I need to make money.

Marina Mogilko 0:07 You're from China. Did you have a U.S. passport back then?

Jenny Lei 0:09 I don't have a U.S. passport, so-

Marina Mogilko 0:10 Oh, so you were still on a visa?

Jenny Lei 0:12 So I'm also trying to sell a work bag right before COVID. Launch! Hey, we're live. Not a single person bought. [upbeat music]

Marina Mogilko 0:18 Oh, my goodness.

Jenny Lei 0:19 But now Hailey Bieber wearing one of our bags.

Marina Mogilko 0:21 And then I saw Anna Delvey wore your bag to court.

Jenny Lei 0:25 It's a part of our story now. If you don't tell your story, someone else will.

Marina Mogilko 0:30 Jenny, thank you so much for being here. I'd love to talk about your business and your journey. First of all, can you walk me through this mindset? You're in New York-

Jenny Lei 0:39 Mm-hmm

Marina Mogilko 0:39 ... uh, and you have no design background, and you're like, "Let me start a brand that makes bags," and it's a-

Jenny Lei 0:46 [laughs]

Marina Mogilko 0:46 ... highly saturated market. You have all the designers you can think of. What was going on in your head?

Jenny Lei 0:52 A lot of things. [chuckles] um, well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. So Freja started as my dream to design the perfect work bag for modern women.

Marina Mogilko 1:02 But why bags? Like, there are other ways to make money.

Jenny Lei 1:04 The reason why bags, um, I don't really believe in oversaturation. I think you should go fishing where there are a lot of fish in the water. Um, I think, like, trying something new and totally, like, no one- that no one else has ever done is actually a lot more risky. And then why bags is, it's, like, a twofold story. When I graduated from undergrad, same situation, I had to make money 'cause I didn't have a job, and I googled how to make money fast online, and I found dropshipping.

Marina Mogilko 1:33 You probably found all of those YouTube videos like-

Jenny Lei 1:34 I did

Marina Mogilko 1:35 ... make $100.

Jenny Lei 1:35 I went to YouTube University. I did. [laughing]

Marina Mogilko 1:37 [laughing]

Jenny Lei 1:38 Um, so I was like, "Okay, this is my thing. I'm gonna try this." I made, I think, six stores, maybe got, like, one or two sales this whole time-

Marina Mogilko 1:47 Oh.

Jenny Lei 1:47 ... and then my seventh store, I was dropshipping bags.

Marina Mogilko 1:51 From China, or-

Jenny Lei 1:51 From China.

Marina Mogilko 1:52 Yeah, mm-hmm.

Jenny Lei 1:52 And that worked really well, so I'm like, "Okay, I know how to sell bags. I know what kinds of bags people like. I know what colors. I know what countries. Okay." And then I kinda, like, shelved that idea. I still went back to grad school. I was like, "I should be a designer, like, I wanna..." A UX designer was what I went to grad school for. I was like, "I think this suits me. Um, I think I should still find a job." And then, I think this was halfway

Jenny Lei 2:15 through grad school, I was preparing for a very important interview. This was, like, my last chance to get a job, in my head, and the night before the interview, I couldn't find a bag that I would... I could bring to this interview. Like, I wanted to walk in feeling confident. I was supposed to be there the whole day. They let me go after three people talked to me, and they're like, "Okay, you can go now." So I'm like, "Okay, I don't think I got that job." So I went to Bryant Park, and I sat there, and I thought, "Okay, um, what can I do? Like, I'm not gonna get this job. If I wanna stay in this country, I wanna- if I wanna stay, I need to make money. I need to find a job for myself. I feel like there are other women who might also experience what I experienced today, which is not having a go-to bag that they felt confident and was super functional and elevated with no, like, logos or anything like that." So I'm like, "Okay, I have an idea. I think I can make that, and I know how to sell bags, so what if I started my own bag brand?" That's how I started, and then I started sketching, um, the day I got back.

Marina Mogilko 3:13 Did you have a passport, a U.S. passport, back then?

Jenny Lei 3:15 I don't have a U.S. passport, so-

Marina Mogilko 3:16 Oh, so you were still on a visa?

Jenny Lei 3:18 Mm-hmm.

Marina Mogilko 3:19 So that meant you had to move-

Jenny Lei 3:20 Exactly

Marina Mogilko 3:20 ... really fast.

Jenny Lei 3:21 Exactly, yeah.

Marina Mogilko 3:22 Oh, wow. And your parents are still in China, right?

Jenny Lei 3:24 They're in China.

Marina Mogilko 3:25 When did you move? How old were you?

Jenny Lei 3:26 I was born in China. I moved to US when I was four.

Marina Mogilko 3:30 Okay.

Jenny Lei 3:30 Um, grew up in the US, and I actually went to high school in China.

Marina Mogilko 3:34 Mm.

Jenny Lei 3:35 'Cause I visited-

Marina Mogilko 3:35 Mm-hmm

Jenny Lei 3:35 ... the summer before high school in the US, and I'm like: Wait, this place is dope. Like, I could see myself living here.

Marina Mogilko 3:41 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 3:41 So I moved back to China by myself. My parents came back two months later. I enrolled into a local Chinese high school.

Marina Mogilko 3:48 Wow.

Jenny Lei 3:48 I learned how to read and write Chinese in high school.

Marina Mogilko 3:50 Wow.

Jenny Lei 3:50 But now I can talk to my factory in Chinese.

Marina Mogilko 3:52 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 3:53 Like, everything kinda worked out really well.

Marina Mogilko 3:55 Do you think you'll ever go back, or...?

Jenny Lei 3:57 Mm, not to live.

Marina Mogilko 3:58 No?

Jenny Lei 3:58 No, I love New York.

Marina Mogilko 3:59 So you... Were you able to get a visa through your business-

Jenny Lei 4:01 Mm-hmm

Marina Mogilko 4:02 ... after that?

Jenny Lei 4:02 Yeah.

Marina Mogilko 4:02 EB-1, all of that?

Jenny Lei 4:04 Yeah.

Marina Mogilko 4:04 Yeah. Oh, wow. That's, that's a great... What did your parents say when you told them, [chuckles] "Hey, I didn't get a job, but I'm starting a purse business?"

Jenny Lei 4:11 I've always been able to make money online, so they're like, "You know what? Like, let's let her try it."

Marina Mogilko 4:16 What was your initial go-to-market

Marina Mogilko 4:18 strategy?

Jenny Lei 4:18 I didn't really have one. I thought, "Let me..." Okay, so I'm very much, like, a one-step-at-a-time kind of person. I don't... I'm not a planner. Um, trying to be. So I went to school Decem- January 2019, and then I graduated December 2019, but during that summer, like, I was in China looking for factories and doing all of that. So my, my only goal was to make one bag that I was really, really happy with, and that took eight months of back and forth, 'cause I didn't know what I was doing.

Marina Mogilko 4:49 Mm.

Jenny Lei 4:49 And then my factory was like, "How do you want us to work off of these sketches?" Like, "I don't know what you want."

Marina Mogilko 4:53 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 4:53 And so there's a lot of communication issues there, too. So a lot of my time was just focused on getting the product perfect, so I'm like, "You know what? I can worry about everything after that." I think, you know, product is king, marketing is queen. My initial launch strategy, so... 'Cause I was dropshipping, so I knew how to do ads, and even to this day, like, we're very, very heavy on, um, paid advertising.

Marina Mogilko 5:14 Amazon, or is it just Shopify?

Jenny Lei 5:15 No, just Shopify.

Marina Mogilko 5:17 Mm.

Jenny Lei 5:17 Um, we're only D2C, and we're in a couple retailers as well. Um, but my [chuckles] my go-to-market strategy was, "I'm gonna run an ad for people to sign up, email."

Marina Mogilko 5:28 After you made a product?

Jenny Lei 5:29 After I made the product.

Marina Mogilko 5:30 'Cause people do A/B tests on, like, mock-ups, right, normally, like-

Jenny Lei 5:33 That's what I was told to do. I didn't do it.

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Marina Mogilko 7:00 The first model that you designed, the bag, was it successful in terms of, like, paid ads? Did people actually convert, or...?

Jenny Lei 7:06 Eventually, yes.

Marina Mogilko 7:07 Yeah?

Jenny Lei 7:08 But I ordered 300 bags. I had them sent to my apartment. No, I think they were, like, on the way. I s- started collecting emails. I think I collected 2,500 emails on Facebook, and then once the bags got there, I was like, "Send. Launch! Hey, we're live." Not a single person bought.

Marina Mogilko 7:22 Oh, wow.

Jenny Lei 7:22 And then-

Marina Mogilko 7:23 For how long?

Jenny Lei 7:24 Um, so the bags got to me February of 2020. So I'm also trying to sell a work bag-

Marina Mogilko 7:31 Oh, it's-

Jenny Lei 7:31 -right before COVID.

Marina Mogilko 7:32 Oh, my goodness.

Jenny Lei 7:33 Right. So I'm like, "Okay-

Marina Mogilko 7:34 The worst [chuckles]

Jenny Lei 7:34 ... Let me, let me think about how to market this-

Marina Mogilko 7:37 Mm-hmm

Jenny Lei 7:37 ... in a way where people need- feel like they need a work bag right now." Um, so there was a lot of back and forth on that. Um, I think it took... It took a year to sell out 300 pieces.

Marina Mogilko 7:47 Wow.

Jenny Lei 7:48 Yeah.

Marina Mogilko 7:48 And you didn't give up.

Jenny Lei 7:49 I can't. I have to sell these bags in my apartment.

Marina Mogilko 7:52 Well, like, maybe find a job or... It was impossible, right, to find a job-

Jenny Lei 7:55 Mm

Marina Mogilko 7:55 ... during COVID?

Jenny Lei 7:56 I'm thinking if I was still looking for jobs. I don't think I was. Um, I had savings.

Marina Mogilko 8:01 So you were determined.

Jenny Lei 8:01 I had some runway from dropshipping, but there was one month, I think this was Ap- August 2020. I remember this so clearly. I was sitting on the couch with my laptop, Shopify screen open. Three sales the whole month, $834 the whole month. I'm like, "You know what? It's the worst it's gonna get, right?

Marina Mogilko 8:20 Mm. [chuckles]

Jenny Lei 8:20 We're it's only up from here." And I remember how I kept going during that time. It's like, "Jenny, you're gonna look back five years from now, and you're gonna be so happy that you kept going."

Marina Mogilko 8:30 It's like your future self talking to you.

Jenny Lei 8:31 Yeah.

Marina Mogilko 8:32 Wow.

Jenny Lei 8:32 Yeah. [chuckles]

Marina Mogilko 8:33 And so what were the next steps? When did this magic happen?

Jenny Lei 8:36 I don't think magic really happened. I think, um... So it was a lot of trial and error for the first year, mostly with paid ads. I think I found a formula that works well for us, and it still works all for us today. Like, most of our ads are variations of the same. It's, like, me packing the bag, 'cause that really gets the people going.

Marina Mogilko 8:56 Right.

Jenny Lei 8:56 Um-

Marina Mogilko 8:57 Bag in, in action.

Jenny Lei 8:58 In action, exactly, in videos. Um, images don't work well for us. Like, pretty campaign images don't work well. People wanna see it, and, like, given that we are known for being a very functional bag brand, I think that makes a lot of sense. Got better at the ads. It was just, like, a lot of improvement, like, tiny little improvement here and there. Um, in the beginning, first year, we probably did, like, 1 to 1.5X ROAS, which is, like, pretty much breaking even. It's like you give Facebook $1, and-

Marina Mogilko 9:29 Yeah

Jenny Lei 9:29 ... you get $1 back. Um, year two,

Jenny Lei 9:33 I believe I started interviewing ads agencies, and, like, I think I've kind of hit a wall with what I can do. Um, but I think, like, I got the brand voice down, to where I could, you know, teach an agency that. First one was honestly terrible. Um, they told me that I should focus on writing content, and I'm like, "I'm trying to sell bags now." Content marketing works, but that takes a lot of time. They were like, "You should write blog posts." I'm like, "Okay, I will do that-"

Marina Mogilko 9:57 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 9:57 "... but however, I need to sell this product." Um, second one was okay. Third one started working really well, so, like, they helped us pick up... It was so expensive, though. I think it was, like, $3,000 a month, and given, like, I'm not really making money at this point-

Marina Mogilko 10:13 Mm

Jenny Lei 10:13 ... so I'm like, "Okay, leap of faith. Like, let's, let's hope it works out." And then I got assigned a new, um, ads person, and he, he got it. Like, he-

Marina Mogilko 10:26 What was so special about his approach?

Jenny Lei 10:28 I don't know. I don't remember.

Marina Mogilko 10:29 He did the same creatives, or...?

Jenny Lei 10:30 Same creatives.

Marina Mogilko 10:31 It's just the way he targeted people.

Jenny Lei 10:33 I think so.

Marina Mogilko 10:33 Interesting.

Jenny Lei 10:33 There was something different about it. Yeah.

Marina Mogilko 10:35 Interesting.

Jenny Lei 10:36 And I think we had... Maybe the ad account was, um, had enough data at that point, where Facebook could use to find new people, but I, I don't know. Patrick, like, he, he just got it. Um, and then we started hitting, like, 2, 2.5, consistently 3, sometimes 4, um-

Marina Mogilko 10:55 For the same creatives that you used-

Jenny Lei 10:56 Same creative

Marina Mogilko 10:56 ... for the whole year?

Jenny Lei 10:57 Same creative.

Marina Mogilko 10:58 Surprising.

Jenny Lei 10:58 I know.

Marina Mogilko 10:58 'Cause my strategy with paid ads would be like, "Oh, this creative is not working."

Jenny Lei 11:02 Mm-hmm.

Marina Mogilko 11:02 "Let's just try 100 more and see what's working."

Jenny Lei 11:04 Mm-hmm, on the creative side.

Marina Mogilko 11:06 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 11:07 I'm lazy, so I'm like, "This is the creative. I know it works."

Marina Mogilko 11:10 Do you know how-

Jenny Lei 11:11 Fantastic

Marina Mogilko 11:11 ... many iterations you went through till you found that piece that worked?

Jenny Lei 11:15 Um, not that many, honestly. I think probably, like, on the 10th batch, like, I started doing videos.

Marina Mogilko 11:22 Okay.

Jenny Lei 11:22 And I started talking about the functionality, and that worked really well.

Marina Mogilko 11:24 Interesting. Mm-hmm.

Jenny Lei 11:25 Yeah, but yeah, anyone listening to this, thinking about doing paid ads, creative is a lot more important than targeting.

Marina Mogilko 11:31 But it's interesting to hear that for you, then the second step was figuring out the right person who did the right targeting.

Jenny Lei 11:36 Because at that point, I... I don't know, 'cause I think I've found... So that creative was getting me sales, and I'm like, "Okay, I know this kind of creative works, but there's something that I don't know on the back end,"-

Marina Mogilko 11:47 Mm

Jenny Lei 11:47 ... "and I think there's someone that can come in and do that." And also, ads was taking up so much of my time. I, I wasn't doing anything else. It was, like, 8 to 10 hours on Facebook.

Marina Mogilko 11:55 Oh, my goodness.

Jenny Lei 11:56 I was a marketing company. I was not a bag brand. [chuckles]

Marina Mogilko 11:58 Yeah. Yeah.

Jenny Lei 11:59 In the beginning, yeah.

Marina Mogilko 12:00 And so that started working. What were your next steps? Let's design more?

Jenny Lei 12:04 ... bags? Yeah, um, I think we put out maybe one or two new products every year, up until this last year, and that's just because, one, design is not my favorite part of it. It's really difficult. It's a lot easier now, because, like, I have a base to work off.

Marina Mogilko 12:21 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 12:21 And I know, like, I've found the brand identity. I know what kind of products I like. I had to develop my own sense of design, like, alongside Freja.

Marina Mogilko 12:30 Of course. Mm.

Jenny Lei 12:30 Um, so design was really, really hard. I also trained my customers to not expect a, not a lot of new products, 'cause I'm like, "Guys, I just wanna make the perfect work bag for women. Um, I think this is it. We'll make it in neutral colors. There's no... It's, like, season-less." And then people started asking for that bag, but with a zipper. So I'm like, "Okay, guys, I'm gonna design this bag, but with a zipper." So that's kind of- it was a lot of, like, community feedback.

Marina Mogilko 12:53 Mm-hmm.

Jenny Lei 12:54 'Cause I'm like, "Guys, you tell me what you want. I, I don't know what I'm doing here."

Marina Mogilko 12:56 Yeah. Have you ever thought of hiring a designer?

Jenny Lei 12:58 I have a creative director now, um, that I hired, and maybe, like, last summer. It's funny, I actually hired her to do some content for us when I first started. This was four years ago, and I was thinking this past summer, like, "Who is the perfect person? Brielle." I reached out, and she was free, and now she's our creative director. But now we work on de- designs together, and it's really, really... It's so helpful to have another pair of eyes-

Marina Mogilko 13:22 Yeah

Jenny Lei 13:23 ... with, like, amazing and similar design sense to me.

Marina Mogilko 13:28 Now your business makes over $10 million in revenue annually.

Jenny Lei 13:32 Mm-hmm.

Marina Mogilko 13:32 What has changed in terms of marketing? Are you still doing the paid ads? Are they still the pr- the number one source for you?

Jenny Lei 13:38 Yeah, paid ads are our bread and butter. Um, I think we're al- always in customer acquisition mode, 'cause we're, we're still very small and very, like, a very young brand. Um, last year, I started thinking like, "Okay, paid ads aren't gonna work forever, obviously. Um, they're working great now, but let's also start some other channels before we have to." Like, I don't wanna wait until it stops working. So we're investing heavily into influencer. Um, I have a good program for that.

Marina Mogilko 14:10 UGC with influencers, or what?

Jenny Lei 14:12 Yeah, UGC-

Marina Mogilko 14:13 Mm-hmm

Jenny Lei 14:13 ... and then, like, doing events, and just, like, more, um, collaborations, um, like driving affiliate sales. And then, because I'm thinking, like, I don't really buy things off ads. I buy things when I see someone I like wearing it.

Marina Mogilko 14:26 Right.

Jenny Lei 14:26 Right. I don't really shop from ads, so, um, really building that out, because I also wanna offer a lot of value to our customer. I think something that resonates really deeply with our customer is the backstory. It's the behind-the-scenes. It's, like, the little design choices, why we, why we're doing this, why we're doing that. It's my life, honestly. Like, they wanna hear what I'm up to every day. Like, they... Like, our newsletters, we send two a week. Tuesday is a bit more product-focused, and then Friday I'll send... They're called Jenny's Journals. I'll just, I'm like, "This is what I'm working on," or, "This is what I've been thinking about. I was feeling a lot of imposter syndrome this week, and this is how I walked through it." And, like, people really resonate with that.

Marina Mogilko 15:04 But you still avoid bright colors and, like, trends, everything. Does it bother you? Like, "Oh, I'm not following the market. Where's the burgundy?" [chuckles]

Jenny Lei 15:13 No. I think a lot of my design decisions also are, I am lazy. I don't want to think about seasonality. I don't really wanna think about colors. I want everything to be sellable all year round. And also, I'm not a designer. I don't even know what rules I should be following. Like, I look back at the first bag that I s- I designed, I'm like, [chuckles] "There's no way I would design it like that today."

Marina Mogilko 15:33 Mm.

Jenny Lei 15:34 Um-

Marina Mogilko 15:34 But it still sells, right?

Jenny Lei 15:35 It still sells. I'm like, I, I wanna redesign it, but people like it, and it's kind of... It's a part of our story now, so I'm like, "Maybe I just leave that alone." And it's really fun to see the progression, I think.

Marina Mogilko 15:45 In one of the interviews, you said you don't like to follow, like, traditional marketing things.

Jenny Lei 15:50 Mm-hmm.

Marina Mogilko 15:50 Um, I wonder what your opinion is on live shopping. 'Cause I feel like it's taking over everything, and you're from China.

Jenny Lei 15:58 Mm-hmm.

Marina Mogilko 15:58 You know how crazy it is out there, and it's coming here. Like, I see creators in China in front of 400 cameras just live streaming, selling, and selling, and selling.

Jenny Lei 16:05 They're crazy.

Marina Mogilko 16:07 Right, and-

Jenny Lei 16:07 It's a workout. [chuckles]

Marina Mogilko 16:08 ... And you just see, like, American social media turning into that, 'cause everyone [chuckles] is now selling, and the social media platforms are pushing that.

Jenny Lei 16:16 Mm.

Marina Mogilko 16:16 What do you think about that? Do you think it's a healthy trend? Does it work for a brand?

Jenny Lei 16:20 I don't think it's something that I would ever try, just because I think for, for Freja and for me, like, my goal is not to be salesy. My goal is not to, like, push product on you. My goal is to be a brand for the people who are looking for something, you know, made with care, made with love, something that they can wear for a really long time, something timeless and neutral, classic, and I think live shopping kind of goes against that. And it's like, I want this to be a purchase that you think about. Like, I want it to be an investment piece. I, I don't want you to just buy it because, you know, you, you saw me-

Marina Mogilko 16:57 Yeah

Jenny Lei 16:57 ... you saw someone live shopping, and I want it to be... I really want it to be intentional. I think that's, like, one of our brand, um, brand pillars.

Marina Mogilko 17:04 You said, "Our customers don't wanna be sold to."

Jenny Lei 17:06 Mm-hmm.

Marina Mogilko 17:06 I really like that phrase. How does that reflect in your, in what you do in marketing? Maybe, like, you don't do, like, "shop now"-

Jenny Lei 17:13 Mm-hmm

Marina Mogilko 17:13 ... stickers or whatever. Can you share some of that?

Jenny Lei 17:15 So in marketing, first of all, we don't really do sales. We maybe do one or two a year just to let's say, like, "Hey, thanks for being pa- part of our community." Um, I used to never do sales. Never. We didn't do a single sale for the first two years. I'm like, "I don't believe in it." I think our prices are set the way they are to be fair all year round.

Marina Mogilko 17:34 Especially because you explain the pricing-

Jenny Lei 17:36 Yeah

Marina Mogilko 17:36 ... on your website, right?

Jenny Lei 17:37 Right.

Marina Mogilko 17:37 If you're discounting, that means you're really just cutting the-

Jenny Lei 17:40 Exactly

Marina Mogilko 17:41 ... margins.

Jenny Lei 17:41 But, but then someone framed it in a way, and I really liked it. He was like, "This is actually a way to reward your customers, maybe at the end of the year. Like, do a little sale, um, so they can, like, gift their friends and gift themselves."

Marina Mogilko 17:50 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 17:50 And I'm like, "You know what? That's a really good way to put it. I like that a lot." So we do that. Like, for our emails, that's why I... It's never, like, salesy. It's always, like, I, I think of it as a pull, not a push. Like, I wanna pull you into our, um, ecosystem, in the Freja world. I'm like, "What would I wanna see as a consumer?" I want a brand that delivers value to me, like, through our content, um, through our newsletters. Like, I wanna learn something. I wanna be entertained.

Marina Mogilko 18:17 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 18:17 I don't wanna be sold to. Um, same with our, I would say, like, our ad creatives. They're very-... I would say elegant. They're very simple. It's not like, "Buy now, buy this," um, "pla- slashing prices," or anything like that. It's just us packing the bag and just showing you, like, "Hey, this is something that you might, um, consider in your life," and, like, showing them how it could fit into their life. And then I definitely wanna do a lot more, um, community events. Um, that's something

Jenny Lei 18:44 that we're building out right now, and I want to be more than a brand. Um, like we started the Freja Fund last year, which essentially is, I put out a poll to our community, and they could fill out, um... Well, not, not a poll, but basically they could submit an application, and we selected a group of seven women to- who are, like, working on starting their own businesses, and I essentially, like, mentor them, um, every other week, and we're all in a group, and I've met all of them almost.

Marina Mogilko 19:12 Nice.

Jenny Lei 19:13 So I wanna do more things like that. I think I wanna... I think we're at the stage now where I do- I'm not in, like, survival mode anymore.

Marina Mogilko 19:20 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 19:20 It's not like, uh, "How am I gonna sell this mountain of bags?" I'm like, "Okay, I know they're gonna sell. How can I channel the money we're making now into something that feels really meaningful to me?"

Marina Mogilko 19:31 Mm.

Jenny Lei 19:31 I think that's, like, the stage that we're at right now.

Marina Mogilko 19:34 Do you become an investor in their companies, or it's just you just give them money and that's it?

Jenny Lei 19:38 I don't want to be an investor. Like, I don't, I don't wanna take a part of their baby.

Marina Mogilko 19:42 Mm. Wow, so you just... It's just a fun charity.

Jenny Lei 19:45 Mm.

Marina Mogilko 19:45 Wow, that's really-

Jenny Lei 19:46 I think it's, like, educational, I think, and I think especially in the beginning, what everyone needs more than anything is someone telling them, "Hey, you're not crazy. I believe in you. I believe in your idea," and I think to be surrounded by other women who are also starting their own businesses-

Marina Mogilko 20:00 Yeah

Jenny Lei 20:00 ... like, that's not something that you get... It's not easy to find, especially in the beginning.

Marina Mogilko 20:05 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 20:05 And everyone's like... Problems feel so big in the beginning, and I think it's very reassuring when someone's like, "Don't, don't worry about it. It's, it's fine."

Marina Mogilko 20:11 Yeah, and you always feel it's just you-

Jenny Lei 20:13 It'll be fine

Marina Mogilko 20:13 ... nobody else [chuckles] in the world.

Jenny Lei 20:14 Exactly, like-

Marina Mogilko 20:15 Yeah

Jenny Lei 20:15 ... also, like, everyone-

Marina Mogilko 20:16 Very well

Jenny Lei 20:16 ... is experiencing the same thing.

Marina Mogilko 20:17 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 20:17 Like, on our first call, I think everyone was, um, worried about their packaging, and they were like, "Oh, it's, it's not just me." Like, everyone is going through this-

Marina Mogilko 20:24 Yeah

Jenny Lei 20:24 ... and it's very reassuring.

Marina Mogilko 20:26 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 20:26 Yeah.

Marina Mogilko 20:26 I wanted

Marina Mogilko 20:27 to show you something, a picture. Um, can you tell me what you felt when this happened? [laughing]

Jenny Lei 20:33 [laughing] I was... Okay, so the picture is Hailey Bieber-

Marina Mogilko 20:38 Yeah, yeah

Jenny Lei 20:38 ... wearing one of our bags. Um, this was April of last year. I had just hired PR, I think, February of that year, and she had started, like, doing some seeding. And I remember I was in Hong Kong. I think I was... I was back to visit family, visit the factory. So I was taking a walk at 6:00 AM, so I was very, very jet lagged, and was looking for, like, an open bakery or something, and suddenly everyone is FaceTiming me. "Okay, what's going on?" And then they're like, "Hailey Bieber is wearing your bag." I'm like, "Oh, my God!" [laughing]

Marina Mogilko 21:11 [laughing]

Jenny Lei 21:12 So that was our first celeb.

Marina Mogilko 21:13 Wow.

Jenny Lei 21:13 Yeah. Um-

Marina Mogilko 21:14 So the, the strategy was basically just sending them-

Jenny Lei 21:16 It was just seeding.

Marina Mogilko 21:17 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 21:17 Mm-hmm.

Marina Mogilko 21:17 Yeah, yeah. Wow. And did, did you see a splash in sales, spike in sales?

Jenny Lei 21:22 A little bit. I think where we did see a huge spike in sales is we started running ads that were s- with, like, um, just saying, like, Hailey-

Marina Mogilko 21:30 Oh, with that image?

Jenny Lei 21:31 I don't know if we used that image. Um-

Marina Mogilko 21:33 I think we-

Jenny Lei 21:33 Or we just say, like... I don't think we can.

Marina Mogilko 21:35 Yeah, yeah.

Jenny Lei 21:35 Yeah, I don't think we can. I think we did, like, the Hailey Bieber bag or whatever, and then people started googling it-

Marina Mogilko 21:40 Oh, sh-

Jenny Lei 21:40 ... and then they would find the article.

Marina Mogilko 21:41 Can you do that? Like, can you use somebody's name in an ad? I don't know.

Jenny Lei 21:45 I don't know. We don't do it anymore. [laughing]

Marina Mogilko 21:47 [laughing] But no, that's, that's smart.

Jenny Lei 21:48 Ask for, ask for forgiveness, not permission. [laughing]

Marina Mogilko 21:51 [laughing] And then I saw Anna Delvey

Marina Mogilko 21:53 wore your bag-

Jenny Lei 21:53 I know she did!

Marina Mogilko 21:54 ... to court.

Jenny Lei 21:55 Yeah. We did not... We, we didn't send her the bag. [laughing]

Marina Mogilko 21:57 Was- [laughing]

Jenny Lei 21:57 We didn't-

Marina Mogilko 21:58 So that wasn't part of the strategy. [laughing]

Jenny Lei 22:00 No, I asked Molly. I was like, "Molly?" She's like, "No, that wasn't me." [laughing]

Marina Mogilko 22:03 [laughing] Do you feel like you don't want to target certain people with your bag, or you're inclusive of everyone?

Jenny Lei 22:09 Um, we're definitely selective. Like, your selling power is not the main thing that we consider. Like, especially when looking, um, for creators to work with, I think what we look for is interesting people, um, I think, like, people that I find inspirational in some way, um, either their style or their story, um, or what they do in the world.

Marina Mogilko 22:35 Can you give any tips to a beginner creator who wants to work with you?

Jenny Lei 22:39 Uh-

Marina Mogilko 22:39 How polished should the content be? Should they just be posting about style? B- because what I... I've started doing some fashion Instagram-

Jenny Lei 22:46 Mm

Marina Mogilko 22:46 ... and I've been primarily business, and I've heard a lot of backlash from brands. They're like, "You're not s-" They, they won't say it directly-

Jenny Lei 22:53 Mm

Marina Mogilko 22:53 ... but they're like, "This is not the type of content we're looking for." But, like, translates into, "You're not stylish enough. Where are these photo shoots in, like, New York aesthetics," whatever. And so this is what I've been hearing back from the industry.

Jenny Lei 23:04 Interesting.

Marina Mogilko 23:04 Is that your approach as well?

Jenny Lei 23:06 I think for us, so there's two types of creators that we mainly work with. One is for content. So the first type is, you know, I, I think you have really, really good, good, good eye for content, so that's, like, one category, and obviously, that's... Our creative director is based in Copenhagen, so now we have a lot of Copenhagen girls. Like, they, like, that's, like, the Freja aesthetic-

Marina Mogilko 23:25 When you want stylish cities

Jenny Lei 23:26 ... very neutral.

Marina Mogilko 23:27 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 23:27 City-

Marina Mogilko 23:27 Yeah

Jenny Lei 23:27 ... like black and white. Yeah, and then the second type is, um, people who can move product, essentially.

Marina Mogilko 23:34 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 23:34 And then I think for those, I'm looking for someone with a point of view, like, someone really authentic-

Marina Mogilko 23:40 Mm

Jenny Lei 23:40 ... someone with a very engaged following, who follows them for a reason, and, you know, will... is open to buying what they suggest.

Marina Mogilko 23:48 Yeah.

Marina Mogilko 23:49 In today's world, everything is scrutinized, everything is criticized on social media. Have you ever had an event when you had an opinion, and then you got so much backlash, you're like, "I'd rather just not say anything?" [chuckles]

Jenny Lei 24:00 I don't think so. Not yet. Not yet. Um, but, like, there's always gonna be backlash about everything. So for the first three years, there was nothing about me. There was... I think maybe my first name was on the website, but you couldn't find anything else about me. And then when I hired PR, she was like, "Jenny, you need to put yourself out there. Like, it'll help build the brand. It'll help build you."... and she was right, but I was really scared. I was like, "What if there's backlash? What if there's backlash?" And then-

Marina Mogilko 24:23 You're right. Yes, that's a risk as well.

Jenny Lei 24:24 It's a risk.

Marina Mogilko 24:25 Like, if you get g- I think about this all the time, 'cause I'm the face of my company.

Jenny Lei 24:28 Mm.

Marina Mogilko 24:28 If I get canceled-

Jenny Lei 24:29 Like, exactly

Marina Mogilko 24:29 ... the whole company [chuckles] goes down.

Jenny Lei 24:31 I know, and it's, like, one of those things that you can't come back from. Like, once people know you, they're not gonna un-know you.

Marina Mogilko 24:35 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 24:35 Right? Like, they might forget about you, but they'll-

Marina Mogilko 24:37 Yeah

Jenny Lei 24:37 ... they'll always know you.

Marina Mogilko 24:38 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 24:38 That's, like, one of those decisions that it's not a two-way door. Like, you go through, you're not coming back.

Marina Mogilko 24:42 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 24:42 But then someone told me this at the very beginning, and it always stuck with me, and he said, "If you don't tell your story, someone else will." So I'm like, "Okay, I need to get ahead of this. If there's backlash, great, I can learn from it," but as long as I am acting in accordance to my own morals and value system, I think, like, I can go to sleep happy at night knowing that.

Marina Mogilko 25:01 Couple last questions:

Marina Mogilko 25:03 Where do you see your brand in 10 years?

Jenny Lei 25:06 I guess I'm not a planner, so I don't- I haven't planned anything out beyond maybe the next year or two. But I decided, collectively with my team... I think this was maybe a month ago, we started having, um, like, all-hands-on-deck calls, which are kind of fun. On the first one, I said, "Guys, you know, I've been really thinking about this." Um, we've grown the team a lot in the last six months, so everyone's, like, pretty new. Like, we have a world-class team here. Everyone is so good and so passionate about Freja and their role. If we're doing the work anyway, why don't we think about building Freja into a legacy brand? Like, I think it was just a little mindset shift. Like, business is formulaic, right? You, you do the product, you do the marketing, you do operations, logistics. I think what is not formulaic is how you think about it and the mindset behind everything, and I, like, I think that is actually what's driving the most change, like, as, as I've noticed. Um, like, last year, I decided I'm gonna take myself seriously, and I'm gonna take Freja seriously. Huge change. This year, I'm like, "Okay, I'm taking it seriously, but where do I wanna go? Let's channel this energy into building a legacy brand." We're doing this anyway. It's not more work. It's just different work, and then I'm just thinking a lot more long term, and then I think it makes it actually a lot easier for everyone else to focus in on what their role is in the company and where they're gonna grow and where we're taking it. And it's a lot easier to filter decisions through, like, would a legacy brand do this?

Marina Mogilko 26:31 Yeah. What's, what's different now?

Jenny Lei 26:32 I'm not in a hurry to get anywhere fast. I think I wanna invest a lot more into building the brand instead of just, like, selling product, in a way, and that's why I wanna do, like, more community events. I wanna be known for being a brand that treats its community and customers and vendors and everyone really, really well, along with having, you know, a nice selection of functional-

Marina Mogilko 26:56 Mm

Jenny Lei 26:57 ... bags. I want to expand into men's, I want to take it global, and I want to have a lot of fun doing it.

Marina Mogilko 27:05 Love it. What's the brand

Marina Mogilko 27:07 that you're looking up to?

Jenny Lei 27:08 There is one brand. It's called Métier London. They're not super well-known. I think they're getting a lot more press now, which they very, very much deserve, but I think they've been around maybe, like, six or seven years. But the designer, Melissa, used to work at... I think she used to design cars, so she comes from, like, a car technical, a more technical background, and I think she started with men's bags. They're very expensive, but I saw one in store once, and it's very rare that I'm like, "Oh, that's really high quality." And, like, everything she does is so thoughtful, and that was one of my inspirations for starting Freja, was, like, I want my bags to feel really, really thoughtful. Um, and I think she does that really, really well, like, every little detail, like how the magnet sounds when it closes, like, things like that.

Marina Mogilko 27:55 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 27:55 And I think that's, like, the level of thought and detail that I aspire to.

Marina Mogilko 28:00 How do you then balance the price tag and-

Jenny Lei 28:03 Yeah

Marina Mogilko 28:03 ... the quality?

Jenny Lei 28:03 Yeah. Um, at the same time, it's like I do want Freja to be and remain accessible. That's really, really important to me. Um, I don't wanna change our pricing too much. I think what I might do is launch, like, limited edition runs, maybe, like, a couple hundred pieces, higher priced. Like, you can go for that if you want. However, we'll always have our main collection, and I think that will build the brand, too. It's like we are known for, you know, having our basics, but we will also offer elevated pieces here and there.

Marina Mogilko 28:36 Can you give advice

Marina Mogilko 28:37 for women who are watching right now? They have a brilliant idea, but the market is saturated. They don't know how to start. They don't really believe in themselves. What is the mindset change they have to go through in order to make it happen?

Jenny Lei 28:49 You just have to do it. You'll never be ready, and I also think don't think too far in advance, because you'll get really, really overwhelmed. Just think about the next step. My favorite podcast, Alex Hormozi, my bible, there's something he said, and I'm like, "That is exactly what I'm trying to say." So he said, "Imagine you are in a dark tunnel. You have a headlamp on your head. You can see what's in front of you, nothing further than that." Starting a business, similar, you can see what you have to do next. I'm like, "Okay, I don't know how to sell bags, but before I sell bags, I know I need to know how to make a bag, and before I know how to make a bag, I need to, like, find a sample maker." So it's like one step at a time, and then he says, "You only know what's in front of you, and then you're not gonna see what's next until you take that first step. But once you take that first step, the next step illuminates." And I think what people don't realize is you at step two is not you at step one. You at step two is much better equipped to deal with everything that you need to do at that point, but you need to take that first step first. Like, think about your job today. You could probably do it in your sleep, but day one, like, you went in there like, "Oh, my gosh, I don't know what to do." Like, the problems I'm dealing with today, I'm looking back, and I'm like, "If I knew what I knew today, I don't know if I would've started Freja."

Marina Mogilko 30:02 I hear that from every entrepreneur. [chuckles]

Jenny Lei 30:04 Really? [chuckles]

Marina Mogilko 30:05 Yeah, yeah. [chuckles]

Jenny Lei 30:05 It's like, you don't even... You don't know what you're signing up for.

Marina Mogilko 30:07 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 30:07 You don't need to know. Like, you're not handle- you're not gonna handle it.

Marina Mogilko 30:11 Mm-hmm.

Jenny Lei 30:11 You're not gonna be able to handle it, but future you will. And I think another thing is figuring out what to measure, like, especially when you're not necessarily making progress, um, in the beginning. And I think, for me, like, when we- even when we weren't selling bags, I was like, "Okay, I know if I can get my ads engine to work, like, that... What is that one thing, your input-output equation? Like, what is that one thing?" I'm like, "You know, I might not be able to sell bags, but if every day, if every day I promise myself my input is I will sit in front of Facebook and try different things for eight hours a day, there is no way that I'm not gonna learn." And I think going off of that is really figuring out, like, what's actually going to drive you forward? For my, for me, like, I need to sell bags, 'cause there's so many things that you could worry about.

Marina Mogilko 30:58 Yeah.

Jenny Lei 30:59 But, like, right now, I just need to figure out a way to sell, and I'm choosing ads. You can pick anything. It could be content. It could be, um, influencer, but, like, focus in on one thing or one way of getting customers and get really, really good at it.

Marina Mogilko 31:13 Love it. Love it. Thank you so much.

Jenny Lei 31:15 Thank you so much for having me. [chuckles]

Marina Mogilko 31:16 Very insightful, so many cool stories. Thank you, Jenny, and looking forward to, um, seeing more of your bags in New York, in Bay Area, see them everywhere. [chime] Huge congratulations on that.

Jenny Lei 31:26 Thank you so much for having me. It was so fun.

Marina Mogilko 31:28 [lips smack] Awesome.

Jenny Lei 31:29 Yay.

Marina Mogilko 31:29 That was great. Thank you.

Jenny Lei 31:30 Wait, also, favorite podcast ever.

Marina Mogilko 31:32 Oh, really? Thank you.

Jenny Lei 31:32 I love your questions.

Marina Mogilko 31:33 Thank you so much.