Simon SinekA Sweet Conversation About Dying with Death Doula Alua Arthur | A Bit of Optimism Podcast
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
50 min read · 9,530 words- 0:00 – 0:29
Deathbed secrets, hidden families, and why DNA tests are changing confessions
- SSSimon Sinek
What is the most interesting secret or story you've ever heard somebody tell you on their death bed?
- AAAlua Arthur
I've heard so many secrets.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, tell one. What's your favorite? Come on, come on.
- AAAlua Arthur
Um, about the kids, about mistresses.
- SSSimon Sinek
The kids.
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Other families.
- AAAlua Arthur
About like other families. There's so many other families. So many other families. And I think that 23andMe and ancestry.com and all those places, we're about to find out a whole lot of families.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's right. [laughs] It's all coming out.
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah. Nobody's dying with secrets anymore. [both laughing]
- 0:29 – 1:28
What a death doula does—and why thinking about death can be a life “hack”
- SSSimon Sinek
Let's talk about death, dying, being dead. Those words are so jarring, literally just hearing them make many of us squirm. It's such a morbid conversation. Who wants to have it? Or maybe we're thinking about it the wrong way. That's where Alua Arthur comes in. She's flipping the script. She's a New York Times bestselling author and one of the leading death doulas. Like a doula helps some people prepare for birth, death doulas help other people navigate life's final chapter with clarity and grace. But for those of us who aren't currently in the process of dying and aren't navigating grief, thinking about death may actually be the best hack to focus on life. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] So I'm always fascinated by people's career paths, right?
- AAAlua Arthur
Mm-hmm.
- 1:28 – 4:22
From burnt-out lawyer to death work: the turning point
- SSSimon Sinek
Doctors and lawyers tend to know pretty young that they're gonna be a doctor and lawyer 'cause you have to make a decision, you know, pretty young to start going through that amount of schooling, et cetera. And I have to believe that being a death doula wasn't like your childhood dreams. You weren't helping your teddy bears take their final breaths. I'm so curious how someone finds themself doing this.
- AAAlua Arthur
It was a sharp right turn. I was a lawyer.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- AAAlua Arthur
I started out on the path of lawyer, so I did all the schooling and took the bar and started practicing and was not having a good time. It was not working for me. It wasn't a fit. And I also just felt frustrated, and still do, that we ask young people to choose their profession so early in their lives, you know, and like commit to something, something with the big financial responsibility of law school. I'll put that as a side. But I was a lawyer, and then life came and worked its magic on me, and grief worked its magic on me, and here we are. I'm practicing death work instead.
- SSSimon Sinek
So did you start in grief work and find yourself to death work, or do you, do you talk about them, or is that one thing?
- AAAlua Arthur
To me, they're inexorably linked. You know, they belong together.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- AAAlua Arthur
They can be separate though, because grief doesn't exist only with death. But you know, it's like an open marriage where death is married to grief and monogamous with grief, but grief is super polyamorous and goes wherever it wants to. [laughs] Yeah. So when talking about death, I can't help but talk about grief. But I'm mostly talking about-
- SSSimon Sinek
But I mean your, but the way you got in, like what came, what was, what was the chicken, what was the egg? I guess that doesn't help resolve the problem because that's actually a debate. But you know, for, in, in the actual way and thick [laughs] the way things worked out, like what happened?
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah. Well, what happened-
- SSSimon Sinek
What happened that you're doing what you're doing now?
- AAAlua Arthur
Okay. So I was-
- SSSimon Sinek
I didn't even know death doula was a thing.
- AAAlua Arthur
It's super a thing. So I was practicing law at Legal Aid. I got really burnt out, absolutely depressed, and like a clinical depression. And I took a leave of absence where I went to Cuba and I met a young fellow, fellow traveler on the bus. We started talking a lot about her life and we started talking about death. She was traveling because she wanted to see the top six places in the world before she died 'cause she had uterine cancer. And so that initial spark was like, "Oh wait, hold on a minute. People die?" And I'd been privileged enough in my life not to have known anybody who died. All my grandparents were dead by the time I was of age. Uh, so nobody close to me had died. I hadn't had that experience yet. And I was really fascinated that she was looking at the end of her life or at least contemplating it. So we talked a lot about her relationship to her death. I asked her a lot about her life and what meaning it had and what she'd made of it thus far. And it helped me look at my own life through some lens that I hadn't previously considered. And that lens helped me see that I did not like the life, the life that I was living. Like it wasn't, it wasn't what I'd wanted out of my life, you know?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- AAAlua Arthur
So I, on the bus, was like, "Well, shoot, if we can talk about this and it can create purpose for people like it did for me during that very brief exchange that we had about our mortality..." Well, it was 14 hours. It wasn't brief. But in that one moment of time-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
- 4:22 – 5:18
Grief as the gateway: her brother-in-law Peter’s death and what the system missed
- AAAlua Arthur
... then it held so much, it held so much weight for me. And so I started really leaning into that for myself. When I came back from Cuba, my brother-in-law became sick, my older sister's husband. His name was Peter St. John. And I got to journey with him through the last two months of his life really, really closely. And I saw how isolating it is to be, uh, dying, to be in the system and not have the support there that we needed. You know, there were plenty of doctors, there were plenty of medical folks, but there wasn't somebody just to hold our hearts and to, you know, remind us that it was hard and to offer resources and a kind word and a listening heart. There was nobody like that. And so I really decided that I wanted to do that for other people. So grief came first in the way that I was grieving deeply. I was grieving my brother-in-law.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- AAAlua Arthur
But I was also grieving a system that I didn't feel cared for the people within it. And so grief pushed me into death work ultimately.
- 5:18 – 6:27
Why families aren’t enough: the unique role of a death doula in the support circle
- SSSimon Sinek
So, so the, the job that you described or the role that you played, I should say, you know, with your brother-in-law, I mean, you were the sister-in-law.
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
So you were family sitting by his side as the doctors and everybody came in and through. And I think perhaps the reason that the concept of a death doula is not on the tip of everyone's tongue is because I guess there's an expectation that that's what the family does.
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah. It's kind of what the family does, but we're also so deeply emotionally entrenched in what's happening that it's hard to pull back. It's hard to take my feelings out of it and be able to show up for the dying person the way that they need to. The death doula is somebody who sits on the outside of the circle of support. Sometimes it's family, but not everybody, uh, has a family around.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- AAAlua Arthur
So it could just be, you know, folks that love the person or their chosen families that are around. And so the doula is kind of the person that sits on the outer rung, kind of holding everybody else up and holding the whole thing to-Together. There are-- There's a number of things that death doulas do that family members, I think, don't know how to do or wouldn't even know where to begin, and that's where I found myself with Peter often. Like, how do we do this thing? Is this a thing we should be considering? I wish that there was so much more we'd known at the time. His death would've looked a little different.
- 6:27 – 7:19
Saying the word ‘dying’: euphemisms, medical avoidance, and the cost of not being direct
- SSSimon Sinek
For, for example, so what was missing when, when Peter died that you wished you knew or had been there?
- AAAlua Arthur
I wish somebody had said very clearly to us that he was dying. That didn't happen.
- SSSimon Sinek
What?
- AAAlua Arthur
It was more that they couldn't treat him anymore. So there was a lot of-
- SSSimon Sinek
That's what-- Say this is, uh, that, that-- What, what-- May I ask, h- what was it that ultimately caused his death?
- AAAlua Arthur
[lips smack] Uh, Burkitt's lymphoma.
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay. So-
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... and nobody said he's going to die. They said this is no longer treatable? Like they used-
- AAAlua Arthur
They said we can't treat him anymore
- SSSimon Sinek
... they spoke in euphemisms to, to avoid the D word?
- AAAlua Arthur
Everybody danced around it. The palliative care team came in. They would, like, nod and smile slowly when it was clear that something was happening when he was not responding anymore. Uh, A plus B equals C, you know, he has an incurable illness. They cannot treat him anymore. He's going to die. But I did that, you know. I did that in my own brain and my own body, and it was really, really difficult to take in because it was also the unimaginable.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- 7:19 – 13:16
Practical realities at the end: death rally, kids, comfort, and unfinished logistics
- AAAlua Arthur
And I think anybody who's been in this situation understands when it's somebody close to you and they're getting close to the end, it's like, this can't be it. Like, this cannot possibly be it. And so aside from just somebody saying very clearly, "Hey, it looks like he's dying," they could have helped us find ways to, uh, engage my four-year-old niece at the time into his, into his death. You know, we didn't-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- AAAlua Arthur
... have support for that properly. Nobody explained what the death rally was, which is something that I noticed in Peter and I've seen many times before and many times since in my work. Nobody explained how we could find certain hospital gowns that closed in the front because he had all these sores on his back or getting him up to change the gowns was difficult.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- AAAlua Arthur
Getting his will in order, trying to figure out-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- AAAlua Arthur
... what he wanted to do with his cremains. Like, there were so many items that I wish that we'd known beforehand that we just didn't have.
- SSSimon Sinek
What's a death rally?
- AAAlua Arthur
A death rally is often a surge of energy nearing the end of life that often looks like the miracle that people have been waiting for, but in fact, it's a sign that life will soon reach its end. I think it may be the body shedding off the last little bit of life force energy, but the person often starts behaving like they did before. Maybe they're making jokes or asking for food or asking to see certain people. Um, they look a little bit more robust than they have, and it typically happens right before the person begins to actively die.
- SSSimon Sinek
Is-- Do the doctors and the palliative care, uh, specialists, are they avoiding the D word because there's some weird stigma? Uh, is, is the word death or die, is it too aggressive? 'Cause we do, we do, at least in the West, you know, we speak, we speak around it, right? Like, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry for your, for your father's passing." You know? "What happened to your, your, you know, your, your brother-in-law?" "He, he's no longer with us." We don't like the, the D word. We don't say, "Oh, yeah, he died a bunch of years ago," or, um, uh, "Yeah, yeah, he's dead." You know? It's-
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... it, it is a very sudden-- Even the, the D, the, it's a hard consonant, right? [chuckles] It's a-
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah. [chuckles]
- SSSimon Sinek
... it's an aggressive word.
- AAAlua Arthur
Totally.
- SSSimon Sinek
W- So I, you know, why is it that even medical professionals are so afraid of using that word? Is it because they've triggered families before, and they've just learned over time not to use the word?
- AAAlua Arthur
I think there's a lot of different reasons for it. That may be part of it.
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause you don't call yourself a, like, end-of-life doula.
- AAAlua Arthur
No, I don't.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's a death doula.
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAlua Arthur
I don't. There are many that call themselves end-of-life doulas or end-of-life specialists or practitioners-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right, right, right, right
- AAAlua Arthur
... but, you know, I'm kind of a straight shooter. Like, what you see is what you get, and people die. Uh, it is a big word, one syllable that lands like an anvil, but it really, it holds a lot of truths that many of us seek to avoid, and I think doctors and medical professionals are also human. You know-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- AAAlua Arthur
... I think that on some level, there isn't enough training in hospitals or training in medical school about dealing with people nearing the end of life.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- AAAlua Arthur
I think that oftentimes folks want to have saved the person. They want-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- 13:16 – 14:07
Are we afraid of our own death—or the death of those we love?
- SSSimon Sinek
How, how... Are you afraid of death?
- AAAlua Arthur
I wouldn't say afraid. I'm curious about it. I'm very curious about it. There are things that-
- SSSimon Sinek
Like if you're on a plane-
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... and there's really bad turbulence, you know, do you have fear of death, like fear of dying, you know? Or are you totally relaxed and you're like, "Well, if this is my time, this is my time"?
- AAAlua Arthur
I feel more like if it's my time, it's my time. But I've also spent a lot of time thinking about my death-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- AAAlua Arthur
... and preparing for my mortality, you know? But there are things that still make me a little uncomfortable about it. I am so deeply in love right now, and it would, I would really, really, really like to see elderhood with this man, and I think about him dying and it makes me want to cry.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- AAAlua Arthur
Uh, so sometimes that fear of death lives in somebody else, you know?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- AAAlua Arthur
I'm maybe not afraid of my own mortality that way. I would love to see elderhood with him.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- AAAlua Arthur
But also I don't want him to die either. That's the fear of death that's showing its head.
- 14:07 – 16:11
Who hires a death doula—and why planning shouldn’t wait for illness
- SSSimon Sinek
Who hires you? Does the family hire you or does the person dying hire you?
- AAAlua Arthur
It depends.
- SSSimon Sinek
Does the hospital hire you?
- AAAlua Arthur
It depends. Never a hospital, or at least not yet. But often the family members or the circle of support or the person themselves, because sometimes we're not there for the person that's dying. Sometimes we're there for the circle of support, like they need an additional hand-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- AAAlua Arthur
... or they need some information or some comprehensive end-of-life planning.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAlua Arthur
I also wanna be clear that death doulas work with anybody who has some recognition of their mortality, which means that when somebody is still healthy, we can help them complete comprehensive end-of-life plans. So we can help folks think through their end-of-life plans-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- AAAlua Arthur
... think through their fears of death, think through their death avoidance when they're still healthy and they're not yet looking at the end of their lives.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's such a good point, right? 'Cause I think we all know that we're supposed to, whether we do or not, you gotta have your will, you gotta have your living will. You know, you have to make your estate in order, make sure somebody knows where all the paperwork is, where the bank account numbers are-
- AAAlua Arthur
Yes
- SSSimon Sinek
... and the insurance policy.
- AAAlua Arthur
You're good.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like it's... I mean, no, I know the stuff. And as you get older and you sort of reach a middle age, you're like, "Ah, I gotta do this," you know?
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And somebody will say to you like, "I just finished my living will. Did you, did-- Simon, did you do yours?" I'm like, "Ah, I gotta do it, damn it," you know? And like, you know, because we don't think of about our mortality when we're younger, of course. It's bas- mostly financial. It is helping our loved ones be prepared or be s- you know, if there's insurance policies, for example, to make sure that they're taken care of, et cetera. But none of us think about the emotional care, we think of the financial care. Like, you know, people have insurance policies so that their spouses will be taken care of after my dying. My f- my kids, uh, who pay the mortgage. But none of us think about they're gonna go through frickin' hell, emotional awfulness when this happens. I'm gonna also have a plan for them, maybe for myself, but at least for them. I, it's, it, we th- It's so interesting that death is a financial thought.
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And we've completely neglect the emotional components to help our family grieve our loss.
- 16:11 – 19:40
Dying as a community event: rituals, burial universals, and what modern life erased
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah. That's an absolute mirror about the capitalistic society that we live in. It shows us where our values lie, not in-
- SSSimon Sinek
Wh- what society does it well?
- AAAlua Arthur
Um, many of them do. I think a lot of societies don't really focus on the financials, but they focus on the community event of it. You know, dying is a, it's a social event. It's not a medical one. It's not a financial one.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAlua Arthur
It does trigger a lot of financial responsibilities and conversations.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- AAAlua Arthur
But it's a social event. It's a community event. And, uh, there are a lot of places that treat it as such, which is part of the reason why a death doula in today's day and age, in this society, a Western society, seems interesting or strange. But it's a role that has been inhabited since time immemorial, because since humans have been alive, humans have been dying, and other humans have been supporting them through it.
- SSSimon Sinek
[chuckles] Literally.
- AAAlua Arthur
You know, literally.
- SSSimon Sinek
[chuckles]
- AAAlua Arthur
And other humans have been there for them. It just seems strange now maybe because we live in these individual pods where, you know, the nuclear family is the center and I-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- AAAlua Arthur
... am the center of the universe, and my life matters, and I, I, I, I, I, such that I forget about all those around me whose lives will continue after I die, who I would like to take care of in my dying as well, who are gonna be taking care of me.
- SSSimon Sinek
The, one of the things that I find also fascinating about the concept of death, and I, you know, I studied anthropology in college, and, uh, a universal is ceremonial burial.
- AAAlua Arthur
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
That every culture in the entire world, everywhere, big or small, there's ceremonial burial. And when anthropologists go back and look at sort of early bones and, you know, of, of early Homo sapien, like they're amazed that they find ceremonial burial. Like it's a thing. And I wonder if that, you called dying a community event, but the concept of the ceremonial burial is sort of the, the community death doula-ing, if you will. And to your point, which is the decline in sort of ceremonial anything, you know, we, we, we ship ourselves off to the cities and leave our families far behind, that I wonder if the need for a death doula is, is a very modern construction because we are so community-less.In this modern day and age.
- AAAlua Arthur
I absolutely agree with you that that role used to be inhabited by a member of the community. There was somebody that the people knew that when the dying is happening, you call them over and they come and support. There are still some cultures and some religions that hold onto those. There's a chevra kadisha within Judaism. They're the folks that you call when the dying has occurred, and they prepare the body. And there's ritual written into the religion about how to grieve afterward.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAlua Arthur
But it's written into it, so everybody knows that's what you do. But in the absence of culture that dictates that, then what do we do? You know, what we do is that we ship it off to hospitals. People are dying in very-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- AAAlua Arthur
... sterile environments, not in the way that they want, not in the way that their whole humanity is being cared for. And then we pass on their money, and we don't-- We give them three days off for bereavement leave for their grief, and we don't give them any time to be with this massive event that is happening.
- SSSimon Sinek
I, I mean, I know I really wanna talk about living in just a second, but I'm really just so fascinated by this, which is if you think about it, when a, when a, when a couple gets pregnant, right? When someone gets pregnant, there is thought put to how I want to have my baby.
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Do you wanna do natural childbirth? Do you want an epidural? Do you wanna be in a tub of water? Like, where do you wanna be? Do you wanna be at home? Do you wanna be at a hospital? Like, do you want a C-section? Like, what are the medical considerations? Like, there's lots of thought in how to bring a child into this world, and so little thought about how I would like to leave this world. I've never thought about it. I've never thought about it.
- AAAlua Arthur
Here we are. Now's the time to think about it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Now's the time to think about it. Okay, let's talk about living.
- AAAlua Arthur
Okay.
- 19:40 – 22:00
Living like you’re dying: how mortality reshaped Alua’s choices and values
- SSSimon Sinek
How did you change how you live your life as a result of this experience? And, and, and take me on the journey, which is what changes did you make right after that bus ride in Cuba? So in the very short term, before you, you decided to go do the work, how did you start living your life differently?
- AAAlua Arthur
Well, I also took that invitation to start living like I was dying, essentially. I was still-- I was under a leave of absence at work, but when I came back, I extended that leave of absence a little bit longer because I thought that I needed a little bit more time to decide what direction I wanted to take my life in, and I'm glad I did. I applied immediately for a, uh, graduate degree program in death and spirituality 'cause I thought maybe I wanted to be a therapist and sit and talk to people that were dying. So I started making the changes. I downsized my apartment because I knew I wouldn't be able to afford it anymore given that I wasn't collecting my salary at the rate that I was. Uh, I made changes in my own life. But since then, so much has changed, you know. Not only did I not go back to the practice of law in any capacity, and I built a business and a career around supporting people when they're dying. I also think I speak a little bit more clearly about how I feel. I, I brush up against my vulnerability a lot more often. Um, the idea of individualism seems to be fading in me, that I'm more comfortable being needed and needing people in my life because I see how communal our lives are and can be, and I want that for myself. But, you know, this idea of individualism has us say that we can do everything on our own. I also, I eat more delicious foods. I'm not as concerned with my weight, if we're gonna be silly about it. Like, I eat whatever I want because this life is short and I wanna use my taste buds as long as I've got them. And I love french fries and cake, so I'm trying to get them while I can.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yes, and-
- AAAlua Arthur
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... but if you eat too much fren- too many french fries and too much cake-
- AAAlua Arthur
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... that day comes a little sooner.
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah. Well-
- SSSimon Sinek
The-theoretically.
- AAAlua Arthur
Theoretically, 'cause I don't know. Tomorrow could be it, and if it is, I really hope I had a french fry. And also-
- SSSimon Sinek
[chuckles]
- AAAlua Arthur
... also, as I'm going about eating my cake and my french fries, at some point I also want some kale and spinach, all right? Like, I don't just want that.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right. Right.
- AAAlua Arthur
When I eat a little bit of it, I satisfy it, then I wanna eat-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- AAAlua Arthur
... something else. I wanna nourish my body.
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause you don't wanna be-- You don't have diabetes along the way either. That's not fun either.
- AAAlua Arthur
No.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- AAAlua Arthur
And I also really like squats. Like, I like squatting. I like muscles. I like exercise. And so I do-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- AAAlua Arthur
... that plenty as well.
- 22:00 – 23:19
Longevity obsession vs death denial: what are we postponing?
- SSSimon Sinek
W-what do you think about the obsession right now of longevity? I live in California, so everybody's on some sort of, you know-
- AAAlua Arthur
Same. Cleanse
- SSSimon Sinek
... supplement something or other, you know.
- AAAlua Arthur
Everything.
- SSSimon Sinek
And you ask them the reason why are you doing this, and they-- Longevity is the answer they give you. I'm curious your, your thoughts. Is it fear of death? Is it a, is it a good thing?
- AAAlua Arthur
I think it's death denial at its core. I think we live in a highly death-avoidant, death-phobic culture, and that tells you that if you take, pop enough supplements and you drink enough baby's blood, you'll live till 117. But why do you wanna live till 117 anyway? You know, what is it that we're trying to avoid by wanting to live for forever? And what are you doing with that extra time that you wouldn't do now with the finite time that you have?
- SSSimon Sinek
That's such a great point, which is I'm taking all these vitamins, I'm doing all these things, and spending hours a day to prolong longevity so that-
- AAAlua Arthur
For what? For what?
- SSSimon Sinek
So it's... You know what, you know what it's, you know what it's the equivalent of? It's the same mentality of, "I'm gonna make a lot of money so that I can give to charity later."
- AAAlua Arthur
Same mentality.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's like, why not just give to charity now-
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... and give to charity later also?
- AAAlua Arthur
With what you got. Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAlua Arthur
Start with what you've got. And none of us know how much time we have. You know what I mean? Like, I could-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- AAAlua Arthur
... live till 104 anyway, but I could also... Tomorrow could be it, and if that's the case, then why not live my life right now with the fullness that I can while I'm still here?
- 23:19 – 29:10
What dying people teach: ‘one hell of a ride,’ presence, and surrendering control
- SSSimon Sinek
What's the youngest person you've, you've helped die?
- AAAlua Arthur
Well, I supported a family with their newborn died.
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay. And what's the oldest?
- AAAlua Arthur
She took like three breaths. Uh, probably about 95.
- SSSimon Sinek
95. So, um, what have you learned from the people who... L- And l- And, and I'll... A, a newborn doesn't help me with my argument here, but, like-
- AAAlua Arthur
Hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... somebody who's in their 40s or 50s-
- AAAlua Arthur
Okay
- SSSimon Sinek
... right? So who we would say they've died young, right?
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Relative to the, to the national averages, versus somebody who lives way beyond the national averages, 80s, 90s, right? Have you noticed any patterns in how the older ones have lived their lives? What is their attitude to life? How have they lived their life that, that you can perceive that they have lived longer than everybody else?
- AAAlua Arthur
Can I tell you a story?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAlua Arthur
A client of mine, one of my absolute favorites, although they're all my favorites, so don't tell anybody I said this. One of my favorite clients, Ms. Bobby, she was about 95 when she died, and in the time that I sat with her, she told me all these stories of her life, you know, about how she was the first Black woman to integrate multiple neighborhoods in Los Angeles. She was a traveling nurse that had traveled abroad and saw the French rolls in France, and so she swears she was the one to bring it to America.
- SSSimon Sinek
[chuckles]
- AAAlua Arthur
She chased off lovers with guns, a cheating husband with a gun. She threw n- newspapers at nosy neighbors. She did a big life while she was here, okay?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- AAAlua Arthur
Nearing the end of her life, I asked her if looking back on any of it made any sense or anything like that, and she responded to me in a super husky, gravelly voice, 'cause she's also smoked, like, packs a day and drank a bunch of whiskey while she was living. I think it was cognac, actually. She drank a lot of cognac. And she said, first of all, none of it made any sense, but it was one hell of a ride. To me, the, the indication of the, like, how people approach their dying is based on how they view their lives themselves. You know?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAlua Arthur
If I'm spending my whole life resisting my death, it's not gonna be one hell of a ride. But if I can just sink into it for what it is, the utter miracle it is, the, the joy, the benefit of being able to eat food and travel places and meet people and, and, like, be here for the times that I'm here, then I think they reach the end feeling like, "Okay, that was all right." And I notice that same attitude in the younger folks. There was a woman I supported who was about 26, 27, who also was, like, so, so joyful. She did not want to die young, air quotes. She didn't wanna die young. But there she was, and she embraced it with, um, with a wisdom that a lot of older people didn't have, that I certainly didn't have even at the time that I got to support her. She had, she had enjoyed her life for the time that she was present in it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- AAAlua Arthur
And I think that's what we can all take away from it, is to be here.
- SSSimon Sinek
I- it's, it, like, it never, it never made sense to me why, you know, people would save their money to go on, you know, like you see the, it's, retirees who go on these incredible world tours that they've been saving up for for 30, 40, 50 years.
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I always think, "Well, why not just take a small trip every year?" You know?
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
As opposed to the grand tour near the end.
- AAAlua Arthur
People waste their whole life.
- SSSimon Sinek
But to your point, I think a lot of what we're talking about is gratitude. I, I'll tell you one thing that I find absolutely poetic and beautiful. When I asked you what you changed about your life, you know, after, after that b- bus ride in Cuba, I expected you to say, "Well, you know, now I take more vacations." Like, I, I expected you to say those kinds of things, but you said something more beautiful, which is you said, "I've become very comfortable being needed and being needy." Like, "I've been very comfortable needing the help of others, and I've been g- very comfortable feeling needed." And I think that is absolutely beautiful, which is to recognize that, like, we're not alone in this.
- AAAlua Arthur
Mm-mm.
- 29:10 – 32:44
Final words, dying alone, and the secrets people can’t hold anymore
- SSSimon Sinek
You've been there for a lot of final words. What are some of the best final words that you've heard that have left you like, "Yes. Thank you"?
- AAAlua Arthur
N- I wish there were. But it's more like yes or no or mm-hmm. Like, there's not that much energy to come up with something poetic, you know? No, I haven't heard anything that's been like, "Wow." I think that's the stuff of the movies.
- SSSimon Sinek
My grandmother died when she was about 95 or 96. She, she had a weird relationship with death. And, you know, I remember I'd visit her in London. She was already in a home 'cause her, her body had not worked like it used to. Her mind was fine right until the end. And it was, caused her n- endless frustration 'cause she was, she was an adventurous woman, and she couldn't really do the stuff she wanted to do. So she was in a home, and I would, like, visit her in London, and I'd, I'd leave, I'd say, "Well, I'll see you, you know, next year when I'm back in London," and she'd scream out, "Maybe not," you know?
- AAAlua Arthur
[chuckles]
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, she just had this weird relationship with death. Very comfortable with it.
- AAAlua Arthur
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
When she died, some of the nurses from the, from the home came, which is very unusual, 'cause they're around death all the time. They don't go to funerals, you know? It's part of the job.
- AAAlua Arthur
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
But a few of them came to her funeral, which I found really touching. And the one who was with her when she diedSh- we-- I was standing next to the grave with her and I said, "I have to ask you, did she have any last words?" And she said, "Yeah. She, we, she was sitting in bed and she said to me, 'I think I'll have another pillow.' And she left to get another pillow, and she'd come back and she died." And, you know, I kinda love that. You know? I kinda love that.
- AAAlua Arthur
Me too.
- SSSimon Sinek
"I think I'll have another pillow."
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I think she was telling her to leave. I think she knew she, that it... And I think she wanted to be alone. Um, but those are, like, the best, the best final words I've ever heard.
- AAAlua Arthur
That happens often where people wanna be alone. I'm so, I'm so touched that that nurse not only remembered, but shared that-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- AAAlua Arthur
... with you. Um, it is beautiful. And I also just love the idea that she was like, "Oh, let me get a little bit more comfortable. Sike, I'm out." You know? [chuckles]
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, I, I think she, [chuckles] being English and polite-
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... didn't wanna say, "Could you, could you get out for a moment, please? I'd like to die."
- AAAlua Arthur
It happens a lot, you know? And I often talk to folks that are experiencing some grief or sadness because they stepped out of the room because either the person dying needed something or they stepped out to get a phone call or to go to the bathroom or so. And while they were gone, their person died.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAlua Arthur
And they said that-
- SSSimon Sinek
They, they waited for their moment, right?
- AAAlua Arthur
They waited for the moment. They wait for the moment. They wait for the moment.
- SSSimon Sinek
What is the most interesting secret or story you've ever heard somebody tell you on their death bed?
- AAAlua Arthur
I've heard so many secrets.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, tell one.
- AAAlua Arthur
There are all types of secrets, family secrets about mistresses and babies and kids and people who died under mysterious circumstances.
- SSSimon Sinek
Ooh.
- AAAlua Arthur
Juicy stuff.
- 32:44 – 45:05
Staying grateful without tragedy: mundane miracles, compassion, and ‘going with grace’
- SSSimon Sinek
Look, everything we're talking about obviously i- is partially about planning for death, but it really is about a celebration of life. And you talked about the 26-year-old who just lived in gratitude, you know? And the 96-year-old, 95-year-old who lived in gratitude for the wild ride. And whatever time you have, make it a, make it something that you'll be grateful for when, when your time is up, whether it's a short time or a long time, right? But we speak in these faux philosophical, like, every day is a blessing and, you know, count your luck and, you know. We, like, we s- we, we say nonsense like this all the time. The only time we really, really, really appreciate that life is short, and the only time we really, really appreciate that how stupid most of our problems are, is when we or someone close to us suffers some sort of real awful tragedy, whether it is a cancer diagnosis or natural disaster. And then we sort of all sit around and take account. You know, somebody goes, "Did you hear, you know, Stanley has terminal cancer?" You know? And you're like, "Ah, it really makes you wanna appreciate every day." We say things like that, and by the way, we mean it.
- AAAlua Arthur
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? Every lesson I've learned about the value of life and the shortness of life, blah, blah, blah, and the fragility of life, I've always, for about a day, [chuckles] maybe a week at most, lived a better life and, and then I forget.
- AAAlua Arthur
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I go back to the, go back to normal. And A, is that okay? And if not, how do we stay aware? How do we, r- you know, without having to suffer tragedy regularly to remind us or be surrounded by tragedy around us to remind us, how do we find joie de vivre? How do we live a life of gratitude and joy and make joyful decisions more often on a just a regular, normal day?
- AAAlua Arthur
Well, I think that's part of the beauty is i- in the question, is that these regular, normal days are where the magic lies. You know? The magic is absolutely in the mundane. It's not just in the tragedy, and it's also not just in those perfect days where the concert tickets for your favorite artists are half off and you get, like, the last ones, or you're at the concert. That's the ma- there is magic in both those things, but it's in the every single day where I can be reminded or I can remember what a wild miracle it is that I get to touch and look at you through these eyes, through a computer no less, and speak. I am sending air into my di- into my lungs, sending it up, pushing my diaphragm out through these vocal cords to make noises, random noises, that somehow you understand and are alchemizing in your own brain and making some sense of and causing a reaction in you, and then thinking the same thing, then you'll do the same thing and send it right back. That is a miracle, and that's happening trillions of times a day, and yet we get so caught up in the little, the little annoyances of life, you know? Uh, tax is a big annoyance, or, like, traffic, or not having the particular type of peanut butter I want at the grocery store, forgetting that peanut butter itself is a miracle. Like, being alive is an absolute, utter gift. It's an utter gift. When I can remember that, when I can remember that, it allows me to be more, like, present. I was talking a bit about gratitude when I was talking about Summer, that client I was telling you about, the young one.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- AAAlua Arthur
But also a lot more about presence. Like, she had a way of just zoning out and noticing raindrops, noticing the pattern as the raindrops came down the window. That may have been because she was approaching her end and she was very present with her mortality and could think, "Wow, I won't be seeing this much longer." That gift is available to all of us every single moment. I don't know when my end will be at allAt all
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, like, you're already making me feel bad, right? Because, and I don't mean this in a bad way, but like I was snippy this morning. Uh, I was annoyed by something at lunchtime, you know, and it's so-- All of it was stupid.
- AAAlua Arthur
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And the reality is I don't care. Like if I really, if you really push me, I, I don't really care.
- AAAlua Arthur
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so what I'm grappling with in my mind is like I know everything we've been talking about, like, and I think everybody knows everything we've been talking about, you know? Like just to look around and be grateful for, as you said, 'cause I think we do sort of gratitude practice. I think most of us who've tried a gratitude practice, you run out of things real quick.
- AAAlua Arthur
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like you have an amazing vacat- so grateful for that vacation and that dinner, and by like the third or fourth or fifth day or second or third week of this, you're like, "I'm grateful for my family again, like I was yesterday. I'm grateful for, I guess, I'm safe at home again." I said that, I think I said that yesterday. But your point is, is you could say the same thing every single day, and that's good.
- AAAlua Arthur
Absolutely. And get, get minute with it. You know you're safe with a home. What about the roof? It doesn't have any leaks. You know? What about the fridge and the food that's in it? What about the ability to chew? What about teeth? What about saliva? What about digestive enzymes? Like we can get really, really minute with it, and when I'm thinking about the minute is where the magic is. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of suffering also in the world. There's so much suffering, and yet when I can zoom out and think about what this life is for me at this moment, it allows me to snap back into it. I think the most effective practice of gratitude for this life itself is the reminder that I'm going to die.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- AAAlua Arthur
When I can remind myself of that, it pulls me right back from the, the annoyances and the minor grievances and the frustrations.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAlua Arthur
And at the same time, it allows me to be with them in a way that allows them to be so, because I'm also human.
- SSSimon Sinek
You're right.
- AAAlua Arthur
And to be human is also to be like a little annoyed sometimes. It makes me like not be, feel so like tight about the emails that I send, you know what I mean? So I didn't get all the wording right. Well, I'm gonna die. [laughs] But also you're gonna die, you know? And so when I'm thinking about that, I don't just hit the email on like the really nasty thing. I don't hit send really easily. When I'm standing and I'm being a jerk in line someplace and somebody else is having a bad day, I think about their death, and it allows me to be a lot more compassionate toward them. One day, whatever it is that's troubling them is gonna be a thing of the past. All of their history, all their doubt, all their fear, all their regret, that's gonna die too. It allows me to like soften toward them. It allows me to like hold my fellow human for being a human, to have-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- AAAlua Arthur
... like hard days, to be-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- AAAlua Arthur
... angry about things, to one day be really vulnerable and to be-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh
- AAAlua Arthur
... laying there like a baby bird. Like it allows me to soften.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, I love that, which is some-- I'm standing in line at, you know, the coffee shop and the person in front of me is having a conniption because they gave them oat milk instead of, you know, almond milk. To s- i- instead of being like, "Chill out," or, "It's just a small sip," to say, "You're gonna die and this won't matter."
- AAAlua Arthur
At all.
Episode duration: 45:05
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