Simon SinekChoose Your Seven Humans Wisely with author Fredrik Backman | Simon Sinek
CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 0:53
Algorithms can’t find your “seven humans”
Fredrik Backman reflects on how neither his wife nor best friend would have “matched” with him through an algorithm. He argues that stumbling into relationships with people who are different from you can be a decisive advantage for growth and perspective.
- •Online matching and optimization miss the messy reality of human compatibility
- •Backman credits early relationships with very different people as formative
- •Good relationships often come from contrast, not similarity
- •The idea of a small, chosen inner circle (“humans”) versus everyone else
- 0:53 – 2:55
Simon sets the stakes: loneliness, intentional friendship, and Backman’s appeal
Simon introduces Backman and frames the episode around the loneliness epidemic and the intentional work required to build meaningful relationships. He connects Backman’s writing and worldview to the themes of showing up consistently and doing the work.
- •Loneliness as a modern epidemic
- •Deep connection comes from repetition and intention, not luck
- •Backman’s novels and new book as context for the discussion
- •Why Backman’s way of seeing friendships resonates
- 2:55 – 6:48
The viral speech: panic, authenticity, and why it worked
Backman recounts how a misunderstood speaking engagement turned into a theater speech in front of admired writers—fueling real anxiety. Simon and Fredrik unpack why the speech landed: unpolished honesty in a performative age.
- •Backman expected a small dinner; arrived to a major theater event
- •He leaned on jokes and a paper script as a “life raft”
- •Simon’s view: audiences root for authenticity, not perfection
- •Vulnerability and honesty are compelling because they’re rare
- 6:48 – 8:39
Why Backman said yes: pride in a best friend’s leadership journey
Backman explains that he joined the podcast because his best friend (Riyadh) deeply admires Simon’s work and applies it in his own leadership. He describes Riyadh’s rise from forklift driver to head of HR and how service-driven leadership shaped their bond.
- •Riyadh’s career arc: warehouse work to HR leader for 900 people
- •Leadership as responsibility and service, not position
- •Backman’s admiration and pride are central to the story
- •Friendship as mutual influence and long-term rooting
- 8:39 – 11:54
Friends you can brag to: envy-free celebration as a rare intimacy
Simon highlights that many people have friends for dark times, but fewer for sharing wins without jealousy. Backman describes how his friendship provides a safe place both to brag honestly and to vent imperfectly—before “editing” the message for the world.
- •The “brag list” is often smaller than the “comfort list”
- •Healthy friendship includes envy-free celebration of success
- •Venting to a friend helps you regulate and refine what you’ll say
- •Social media often replaces this private “editor” function
- 11:54 – 15:38
Friends as editors: relationships that refine your thinking and behavior
Backman expands the editor metaphor: good friends tell you when you’re wrong and help you rewrite your reactions. He traces this impulse to writing—learning early to use letters and revision to express emotions more accurately than in real-time conflict.
- •Friends help you see blind spots and correct exaggerations
- •Editing is necessary for clarity and kindness
- •Writing began as a way to handle confrontation (letters to his father)
- •Books represent a year-long “best version” edit of himself
- 15:38 – 18:55
Growing up together: reprioritizing time from friends to partners and kids
Backman shares pivotal moments when Riyadh communicated changing priorities—investing time in a girlfriend and later choosing family without apology. Those conversations reframed what the friend group wanted in relationships and modeled mature emotional honesty.
- •Directly communicating life changes prevents passive resentment
- •Choosing partner/family time is an intentional investment
- •“It’s not that I have to—it's that I want to” as a defining value
- •The friend group’s relationships were shaped by this example
- 18:55 – 26:47
Quantity over quality time: time as the only real currency
Backman argues that time is the core resource in relationships and favors “quantity” over occasional big experiences. He describes Riyadh’s habit of physically showing up during loss—offering presence and practical help rather than perfect words.
- •Time is framed as the most precious, nonrenewable commodity
- •Frequent contact beats occasional grand gestures
- •Showing up in grief: presence over eloquence
- •Practical service (chores, food, sitting nearby) as love in action
- 26:47 – 31:42
How to get a friend like that: fight rules, self-work, and choosing to show up
Prompted by Simon’s question, Backman discusses what makes relationships durable: clear rules for conflict and post-fight reflection. Simon challenges the “friendship lottery” idea, arguing you get great friends by choosing to be that friend first.
- •Early relationship “rules of fighting” prevent destructive escalation
- •Never weaponize breakup threats during conflict
- •The real work is on the self: communication, self-knowledge, growth
- •Be the friend who shows up—investment returns connection (ROI)
- 31:42 – 35:44
Effort you can see: being ‘good enough’ through trying and consistency
They explore how visible effort is more meaningful than perfection—in parenting and relationships. Backman frames himself as an imperfect, distracted dad who tries hard; Simon reflects on how trying transforms conflict and builds trust.
- •Effort is the most romantic and trust-building signal
- •Parenting and friendship succeed via consistency and repair
- •Trying creates room for mistakes without collapsing the bond
- •Investing in friendship inside marriage keeps the relationship strong
- 35:44 – 37:15
Humans vs. people: the chosen inner circle and why difference matters
Backman introduces a distinction between “people” (strangers) and “humans” (the few you choose). He reiterates that algorithms wouldn’t pick his closest relationships and that being around different people helps him grow and stay grounded.
- •“Seven humans” as the small set of most important relationships
- •Strangers can annoy you; your humans are worth the work
- •Difference in temperament/values can be a strength
- •Close relationships require ongoing earning, not entitlement
- 37:15 – 44:50
Healthy self-deprecation, Swedish Jantelagen, and learning from opposites
Simon distinguishes healthy self-deprecation from low self-esteem: naming shortcomings without surrendering to them. They discuss Sweden’s Jantelagen (anti-brag cultural norm), its upsides and “crabs in a bucket” downside, and how reframing it positively could help.
- •Healthy self-deprecation = identification + commitment to improve
- •Low self-esteem = resignation and fixed identity
- •Jantelagen: humility norms, anti-conspicuousness, anti-brag culture
- •Rewriting norms affirmatively: what to do, not what not to do
- 44:50 – 48:41
Fear of not being enough: expectations, insecurity, and preemptive anger
Backman shares a deeper theory about Riyadh’s relationship to time: fear of not being enough and needing to outwork others to earn a seat at the table. He connects it to his own fear of disappointing people and how expectations and fantasies can create frustration in parenting and life.
- •Impostor feelings can drive over-preparation and overwork
- •Fear of disappointing others can trigger preemptive defensiveness
- •Parenting expectations: being upset when kids don’t match your fantasy
- •Letting go of fantasy reduces the disappointment ‘delta’
- 48:41 – 53:20
Understanding bullies without excusing them: finding the bully in yourself
Asked about bullies, Backman proposes a humbling approach: recognize shared impulses rather than forcing yourself to find good in harmful people. He explains how he uses his own flaws to write difficult characters and how surrounding himself with better, different people helps him fight narcissistic tendencies.
- •Empathy through shared humanity, not moral absolution
- •Backman writes worst traits from himself; best traits from others
- •Recognizing common impulses creates humility and self-correction
- •Actively managing narcissism by choosing grounding relationships
- 53:20 – 58:07
A generous way of communicating: accessible ideas, cardamom buns, and closing warmth
They reflect on communication that feels inclusive—talking with people rather than at them—and how that opens doors for readers who don’t usually read. The conversation ends playfully with a Stockholm cardamom bun debate and heartfelt gratitude.
- •Writing/speaking that invites rather than performs builds trust
- •Being a ‘gateway’ author/thinker can change people’s habits
- •Shared cultural love: Stockholm bakeries and cardamom buns
- •Mutual appreciation and emotional closing reflections
