Choose Your Seven Humans Wisely with author Fredrik Backman | Simon Sinek

1. 0:00 – 0:53

   Algorithms can’t find your “seven humans”

   1. FBFredrik Backman0:00

      My best friend and my wife, if they would have, if they would have gone on one of like the matchmaking websites or something, if they would have put themselves through an algorithm and said, "Find me a person," they would have never found me.

   2. SSSimon Sinek0:21

      Yeah.

   3. FBFredrik Backman0:21

      Like never in a million years would an algorithm have said, "This, this lunatic, he's the guy for you." Never. I was fortunate in the way that I stumble upon people early on in my life that was very different from me.

   4. SSSimon Sinek0:38

      Yeah.

   5. FBFredrik Backman0:38

      And I found out very quickly that that was a good thing for me.

   6. SSSimon Sinek0:42

      Yeah.

   7. FBFredrik Backman0:42

      That was... Like I needed people who were not like me-

   8. SSSimon Sinek0:48

      Yeah

   9. FBFredrik Backman0:48

      ... um, so, so that I could look at their best qualities and strive for them.

2. 0:53 – 2:55

   Simon sets the stakes: loneliness, intentional friendship, and Backman’s appeal

   1. SSSimon Sinek0:53

      If you're an avid listener of this podcast, you may know something about me, that I'm not a reader. I've actually written more books than I've read. But this conversation with Fredrik Backman makes me want to read. The way he thinks, the way he sees the world, the way he sees humans and friendships and people, it inspired me. I actually bought two of his novels, Anxious People and A Man Called Ove, which was later made into a movie, A Man Called Otto, starring Tom Hanks. We live in a world where loneliness is an epidemic, and Fredrik reminds us that meaningful relationships are built with intention. They take showing up again and again and again, even when it's inconvenient. His new book, My Friends, drives that point home. The people who have deep, meaningful connections in the world, they're not lucky. They do the work, and that work is worth it. I wanted to begin this episode talking about Fredrik's fantastic viral speech that he gave about creative anxiety and procrastination at Simon & Schuster's centennial. He is, of course, humble about the video's success, but it's easy to see why his words connected with so many people. It's brilliant, hilarious, and painfully relatable for introverts like me, and that is a perfect description for the conversation that follows. This is A Bit of Optimism. Oh, and P.S. If you ever go to Stockholm, Fredrik and I reveal who has the best cardamom buns in the world. This episode is brought to you by Porsche. And like all great brands with great products, it's the people behind the products that make them so spectacular. You already know this. Irrespective of whether people are fans of your books or not, the little video you did at the publishing thing, uh, went viral

3. 2:55 – 6:48

   The viral speech: panic, authenticity, and why it worked

   1. SSSimon Sinek2:55

      and made you a bit of an internet sensation.

   2. FBFredrik Backman3:00

      Yeah, fueled by pure panic. My wife has this thing where she doesn't give me all of the information, which she finds to be very effective, so she didn't... I thought... My, my publisher was celebrating their 100 years, Simon & Schuster, and they only invited me because they needed like a Scandinavian. Like they needed to show we have authors from all over the world, and at some point, someone in a meeting was like, "Do we have anyone from Scandinavia?" And they were like, "Yeah, I think we have a guy." My wife also explained to me like, "Oh, they're gonna have a thing," and I, I, you know, and I thought, based on what she told me, that I was gonna give a speech at a dinner. And then I-

   3. SSSimon Sinek3:41

      Yeah

   4. FBFredrik Backman3:41

      ... arrived, and it was at a theater in the presence of, of a lot of, a lot of writers and a lot of people that I really, really admire and, and really look up to. And I had prepared a speech full of stupid jokes, 'cause I don't know how to write a speech. [cheering] Good evening. My name is, uh, Fredrik Backman. I'm here tonight because my agent said that this would be good for my career. [laughs] She said I need to learn how to speak in front of people. [laughs] "It will be fun," she said. [laughs] So I told her that I write books. I spend eight hours every day locked inside a room with people I have made up. [laughs] If I was comfortable talking to real people, I would have a real job. [laughs] But my agent said, "You know, just go up there and talk about the life of a writer." And I said, "All right." Being a writer is the best way I know how to get paid for being insane. [laughs] So it was, it was pure panic. What you saw on, on the video, that was just me panicking and thinking, "This is gonna be the end of my time at this very nice publishing house." They were-

   5. SSSimon Sinek4:58

      Well, the good news is they hire you for being a writer, not a speech giver, and the better news is you nailed it. But inherently, the audience is always rooting for who's ever on the stage, I've found. And where things are the best and we most enjoy what we hear is that somebody is showing who they truly are, which is if they're nervous or if they speak slowly. As long as that's who they are, I think people fall in love.

   6. FBFredrik Backman5:22

      I am here tonight with all of my anxiety, because I know that in this room, there might be someone who is dreaming about writing a book. Uh, dreaming of becoming an author. So I'm here to tell you that I am obviously an idiot. [laughs] I have no idea what I'm doing, but I became an author anyway. [laughs] So you can too. [laughs] And I hope that one day I will be able to tell my agent that the reason that my next book is not finished yet is because I was busy reading yours. [laughs] Thank you very much. [cheering]

   7. SSSimon Sinek5:57

      I think that's what happened, which is we fell in love with somebody who was very honest about how you were actually feeling, in a day and age where we filter everything and everything's performative.

   8. FBFredrik Backman6:06

      I'm glad if it felt that way. Um-I, there was a lot of people who told me afterwards, like, "It was so good," because, you know, it wasn't perfect. It wasn't, like, practiced. And I'm like, [laughs] I... Well, I tried. I, it wasn't my intention not to [laughs] I... It was my intention for it to be good. You know, you walk up on stage, and they... I had a piece of paper with the speech written down.

   9. SSSimon Sinek6:27

      Yeah.

   10. FBFredrik Backman6:27

       And, and they said, "No, no, we can put that on the teleprompter." And I was like, "Absolutely not. I'm holding onto the paper that d- like, this is, like, my life raft on open sea. I'm holding onto this like I'm holding on to, like, the, the edge of a mountain." It went all right, but it was, uh, it was, there was a lot of panic involved.

   11. SSSimon Sinek6:48

       [laughs]

4. 6:48 – 8:39

   Why Backman said yes: pride in a best friend’s leadership journey

   1. FBFredrik Backman6:48

      This is also a lot of panic involved, and, uh, that we, we talked about that earlier, but the reason that I, the reason that I said yes to this, I was gonna explain to my children what I was gonna do today.

   2. SSSimon Sinek7:01

      Mm-hmm.

   3. FBFredrik Backman7:01

      I said, "Well, I'm gonna be on this podcast," and they said, "What, what kind of podcast?" And I said, "This incredibly intelligent m- man who, who has written th- these books on leadership, and he invites these incredibly smart people to his podcast, and they, they talk about, you know, profound things, and, and they talk about, like, research and, and science, and, and, you know, the world and the society." And you can see my kids l- looking at me like, "When are we gonna get to the part of why you're here? Why are you gonna be on it?" But the reason that I couldn't say no was that my best friend, we've known each other since we were teenagers, so 30-plus years. He's a great extrovert. You know, the always... W- was always a good leader, always one of those guys that you followed everywhere because he just had that charisma. Uh, and he, uh, when he was 19, he started working as a forklift driver at a warehouse, uh, fruit and vegetables. And, uh, and then over the course of 25 years, he's-

   4. SSSimon Sinek7:58

      Yeah

   5. FBFredrik Backman7:58

      ... worked his way up, and now he's the head of HR, uh, for the company of 900 people. He talks about, you know, your books and your writing and how it's affected his view on leadership, how it's affected his view on how to be of service to others.

   6. SSSimon Sinek8:18

      I like that.

   7. FBFredrik Backman8:18

      Like, he talks a lot about, he talks a lot about how he learned that leadership, it's not about the position. It's about the responsibility, and responsibility to others, and being of service to others. We talk about it a lot. Um, so I couldn't... Like, there was no way that he would forgive me if I said [laughs] no to this.

5. 8:39 – 11:54

   Friends you can brag to: envy-free celebration as a rare intimacy

   1. SSSimon Sinek8:39

      That's very kind. Thank you. What I'm taking away from that story, which is so beautiful, uh, is how proud you are of him. You're glowing-

   2. FBFredrik Backman8:47

      Yeah

   3. SSSimon Sinek8:48

      ... as you talk about it. And as I've been looking at friendship and trying to understand friendship, there's this very interesting observation that we all, I hope, have at least one but a few, a, a group of people that we can turn to in dark times. When we're at our worst, when we're struggling, we can go to these people and say, "I, I just need to vent. I need your help. I'm, I'm not doing well." You know? I, I hope that everybody has that, that group of friends. What I've found fascinating is that it's a smaller group of friends that we can call to brag, that we can call to say, "I did something great. Something great happened to me. My book hit the bestseller list. I'm so proud of myself." And there's no jealousy on the other side, and there's no envy. And what I find so fascinating is the number of people that we can brag to is smaller than the number of people we can go to in hard times. And so this says a lot, I think, about the quality of your friendship. You said he's such a close friend, you've been friends since you were teenagers, that you're talking about his accomplishments as if they're your own. Has it always been like that, or have you ever had thi- times in your, in that friendship where you were jealous, or something he did highlighted an insecurity in you?

   4. FBFredrik Backman10:02

      No, I, I think it's always been that we were really proud of each other. I think it's always, it was always that we, we rooted so strongly for each other. He's always been insanely proud of me, like, for whatever I accomplished, and I th- But I think, I really, really think that I... He was the person who taught me how to be... That it was important to be happy for others, like, that that was a genuine part of the friendship, to be, to have that, to be able to be genuinely happy for each other. It's funny that you say that, because I have that with him, that I call him sometimes and I say, "I can't say... I can't say this to anyone else because I'm gonna sound like a, like a douchebag. I'm gonna sound really full of myself, but this thing happened and I'm super proud of it." And we also have this, he can call me once in a while and he'll say, "You know, um, this thing happened. I'm really u- You know, I'm, I'm upset with this person. I just need to vent. Is that okay?" And then he just goes off. And then at the end of it, he's like, "I know I'm, I'm, like, exaggerating. I'm, I'm overreacting. I know that, but I have to." Like, sometimes you need to get it out-

   5. SSSimon Sinek11:17

      Yeah

   6. FBFredrik Backman11:17

      ... to, like, edit yourself and like, "Yeah, this is not how I'm gonna say it to them, but I needed to say it to you first."

   7. SSSimon Sinek11:24

      I think you've just summed up the problem with social media, which is our initial reaction, which is not the best reaction, it's the venting reaction. It's not the way we act, wanna say something to somebody. It's not constructive, but it is necessary for us to get it all out in the most exaggerated form so that we can be calmer and rational again, that I think a lot of people are using the s- social media and the comments section as that outlet, not, not the friend.

6. 11:54 – 15:38

   Friends as editors: relationships that refine your thinking and behavior

   1. FBFredrik Backman11:54

      If you're married and you're upset, y- you know, you have an argument with your wife, and you go to your friends and you say, "You know, I, I just, you know, sh- it's this and this and this and this and this, and y- you know, and we had this argument. She didn't listen," and whatever it is. Your friends will tell you, "Yeah, but, you know-"But you are that way. Like, you're... She's right about these three things. Like, you might be right about this one thing, but the other three things, she's spot on there. Like, you're, you're the annoying one. You're in the wrong... And you have to go like, "All right. All right, fine." And then you kind of edit yourself-

   2. SSSimon Sinek12:31

      Yeah

   3. FBFredrik Backman12:31

      ... uh, because they're your editors. And you go back and you, you're like, "Okay, this is how I feel." You need people around you who edit you. When people have read one of my books and they tell me like, "Well, I'm excited to meet you because I read one of your books," and I wanna tell them like, "You need to tone down your expectations because you read my book. I edited the book for a year." [laughs]

   4. SSSimon Sinek12:54

      Yeah.

   5. FBFredrik Backman12:54

      "That's the best version of me. And if you didn't like the book, that's still the most you're gonna like me because that, that was, that was the b- that was all I had. That was the best, that was the best way that I could phrase this." Like, I, I, maybe I rewrote that sentence 150 times before I'm like, "Yeah, this is how I feel about it." Um, if you meet me in real life before editing, then, um, that's how I found writing. When I was a kid, I was very bad at being in an argument, at being in a confrontation. I didn't know... Like, I, I always went away like, "Oh, I should have said that. I should have said that. I should have said that." So writing was my way to find... I was in argument... I think it was in, in an argument with my dad. He's very good with words.

   6. SSSimon Sinek13:41

      Mm-hmm.

   7. FBFredrik Backman13:42

      So he would win all the time because he knew more words. I mean, he, he could, like, twist an argument.

   8. SSSimon Sinek13:47

      Yeah.

   9. FBFredrik Backman13:47

      And, uh, I was maybe six or seven years old, and I was like... I went into my room and I was really angry, and instead of, like, engaging in the argument-

   10. SSSimon Sinek13:58

       Yeah

   11. FBFredrik Backman13:58

       ... I went to my room and I wrote him a letter. And I started doing that a little bit with people. Like, when I was upset with them, I sat down and I wrote them a letter, because then I could edit myself, so it didn't-

   12. SSSimon Sinek14:09

       Yeah

   13. FBFredrik Backman14:09

       ... come out... It came out the way that I wanted it to come out. That's how I started writing, I think.

   14. SSSimon Sinek14:14

       I absolutely love this idea as friend, as editor, and there are people who are better editors than they are writers, you know, um, where they can see the flaws in the argument, or they can see how to make the argument better more than we can. And they have clarity, and we're open to editors. The good writers are open to editors. The good writers know that they won't get it right, and they need somebody's input to see the things that we can't see. And to think of a friend to have that same clarity and objectivity and to be able to see what we're trying to say, and for us to be open to an editor rather than to just hire somebody to just agree with our writing, um... Did... You said that you learned to, uh, to be proud of somebody else, uh, from him. Did he actually sit down and teach you the lesson, or did you just feel his joy for you and, and you learned it by example by watching him?

   15. FBFredrik Backman15:14

       No, with him, I think I learned... With that, that particular thing, I think I learned by example, uh, and, and, uh, still do. I mean, he's still my... He's still very much my role model. He's always, you know, show- showed me how to be a better person. I'm always trying to-

   16. SSSimon Sinek15:37

       Give me an example

7. 15:38 – 18:55

   Growing up together: reprioritizing time from friends to partners and kids

   1. FBFredrik Backman15:38

      ... He was always the first with a lot of things, so he was the first to get a serious relationship. We were 22, 23, and we would always watch movies. We would always end up at, you know, whatever night it was, we were at m- usually at my, my apartment, and we would watch movies and, or play video games. He met a girl and, and, and, uh, you know, after a while they got serious, and one night he just, he just sat there and he, like, just looked at me and he said, "You know what? Um, I think this is gonna be the last time for a very long time that I watch a movie with you guys." I was like, "What?" And he's like, "No, I've, I've been thinking about it, and this is something that we do, but we're gonna do other things. Like, we're gonna go... We're gonna go grab a beer. We're gonna go grab dinner. We're gonna hang out. We're, we're gonna go to concerts. We're still gonna go do all that. But this, like, Tuesday night, just sitting around watching a movie, I'm gonna do that with my girlfriend now, because that time is really important for me to have with her if this is gonna work, and I want this to work."

   2. SSSimon Sinek16:47

      [laughs]

   3. FBFredrik Backman16:48

      And he had this really discussion with us that, that, you know, "You need to be happy for me for this." And, um, and we would... You know, we were 22, which was a, you know... And it was such a mature way of telling your friends like, "I love you, I, I, but, but I have to invest time in her." And then a few years later, he was 25 and they had their first child. And, uh, we were 25 years old, you know, you're not the smartest, and we were all single, the rest of us. So, and we... I remember we were in a room, and three of his friends... It started as a joke, and then it went a little too far, and then we kind of said, "Well, you never, you know, you never hang out with us anymore because you always have to be with your family now that you have a kid. You always have to be with your family." And he sat down, and he did, he did it in the nicest, most compassionate way. But he sat down and he looked at us and he says, "It's not that I have to be with them. It's that I want to be with them." And he says, "You know, I, I love you. I love hanging out with you, but there is no situation where I wouldn't rather be with my kid." And it, he was so just... It was such a-Such a moment for the rest of us. We were all single, we didn't have kids, we didn't know anything about that. And we all... And, and remember, and we've talked about it afterwards, like it was pr- such a profound moment for the, the rest of us in the room, and it kind of... It impacted the way... I really think it impacted the way that we looked at a relationship. Because after that we were, we were all, "Okay, that's what I'm looking for. That's the thing I'm looking for." Over the next five, six years we all met someone. We're still with that person 10, 15 years later.

   4. SSSimon Sinek18:55

      Mm.

8. 18:55 – 26:47

   Quantity over quality time: time as the only real currency

   1. FBFredrik Backman18:55

      We're still with that person and we all have kids, and we all look at our families the way that he to- y- the way that he said that that day. We still, we're all m- like we're all m- invested in our families in the same way. We w- we all have this discussion all the time that people talk about quality time over quantity time.

   2. SSSimon Sinek19:21

      Yeah.

   3. FBFredrik Backman19:22

      And m- I think that's the part where w- where we would wildly disagree. Like, all four of us is like, "I would rather have quantity. I would rather have 100 hours with you over the phone than, like, going on the, like, this trip to Las Vegas and watch a Formula One race or whatever, you know, th- super experience that you could have with a group of friends. I would much rather have 100 hours with you over the phone."

   4. SSSimon Sinek19:49

      Yeah.

   5. FBFredrik Backman19:50

      He's impacted me tremendously because he's, he's always been the one to do something first. Th- there's very often he's said something and then three years later I'm like, "I get it now." [laughs]

   6. SSSimon Sinek20:02

      Right.

   7. FBFredrik Backman20:02

      "I, I didn't get it at the time, but I get it now. You were right."

   8. SSSimon Sinek20:06

      There, there's so many things that I'm taking away from this. He's also talking about growing up, and that our life changes, we grow. And we have to by... We have to reprioritize, and sometimes that'll come at the expense of the people who aren't at the place we're at. You know, as you said, you were single, he was in a relationship. You learned some of the things he was saying, you understand some of the things he was saying only three years later when some of your life caught up with some of his life. But I so appreciate that level of communication where you tell your friends just so you know, and they get to have the reaction, "No, no, no," you know? As opposed to getting angry because it's more passive, which is I think unfortunately what most of us do, A, because I think it's easier, and B, because I don't think we know how to tell our friends for fear of disappointing them or upsetting them. And he didn't seem to have that fear.

   9. FBFredrik Backman20:55

      No, no, no. And I think I practiced talking about my emotions because we, we were that k- kind of group of friends, and it was always very normal to us to, to talk about how we felt, especially me and him. Um, and it, it m- so I had a lot of practice talking about-

   10. SSSimon Sinek21:17

       Yeah

   11. FBFredrik Backman21:17

       ... my emotions. And he also, you know, he's a great editor. He's, he's very good at telling me, like, "Yeah, you're way off here," you [laughs] you know?

   12. SSSimon Sinek21:24

       You're talking about honesty. His honesty is-

   13. FBFredrik Backman21:26

       Yeah. And he was always, uh-

   14. SSSimon Sinek21:27

       His-

   15. FBFredrik Backman21:27

       But he was als- als- also this, you know, that you, he taught me how to, um, to view time. We live seven hours apart in Sweden now because I, I moved north. So, uh, we talk over the phone a lot, and, um, uh, so we can text each other. Like, are you... I go... We both have dogs, so I'll, I'll text him, like, "Are you gonna walk the dog?" He's like, "Yeah, at 9:00 PM I'm gonna walk the dog. I'll call then." But we were always talking about time. Like, time m- m- like, he was so clear so early on in life that this is the amount of time I have.

   16. SSSimon Sinek22:07

       Yeah.

   17. FBFredrik Backman22:07

       And these are the things that I need to do. And I b- like, we're still gonna hang out, but I'm gonna have to take a little bit of it. He said on multiple occasions that, like, "The only thing I can give you is time. Like, that's what I have. Like, that's, that's what I'm- I- that's, that's what I have."

   18. SSSimon Sinek22:29

       A redeemable precious commodity.

   19. FBFredrik Backman22:31

       Yeah. And, and for him it was, "I can give you time." Whenever there's someone who loses someone-

   20. SSSimon Sinek22:38

       Mm

   21. FBFredrik Backman22:39

       ... he's that person who he just gets in the car and he goes to their house-

   22. SSSimon Sinek22:45

       Yeah

   23. FBFredrik Backman22:46

       ... and he says, "I'm here." And he says, "If you don't need me for anything, I'll go sit in the car. But I just, I just want you to know that I'm here." And at so many occasions, he's, he's... someone lost someone, and there's this thing that happens when you lose someone that everyone thinks, "Oh, I don't wanna call. I don't wanna disturb. I don't wanna intrude in their..." So they end up sitting there alone. And he would say, like, "There are probably people who can say smarter things or, or give you, like, more profound words at this time, or, like... But I can give you t- like, I can be around. I can be here. I can do the dishes or, you know, go get food or, or I'll... you know, if there, there's a chore around the house, I'll do that. Like, I'll, I'll... give me something to do."

   24. SSSimon Sinek23:39

       A lot of people listening to this are... I don't wanna use the word jealous or envious, but maybe the feeling of longing to have that in their lives. And I know people are asking this, "How do I get a friend like your friend?" Look who you are and who you've become, that we have to, we have to admit in some way, shape, or form, whether it's you as a father, you as a husband, you as a friend, you as an author, in some way, shape, or form you have become good at those things in part because of this person in your life who's been rooting for you since the beginning, who's been honest with you since the beginning, who's been helping manage time since the beginning, had been modeling what all of it looks like for you.And I know a lot of people listening to this are thinking to themselves, "How do I get that? I want that." It- there's beauty in what you're talking about. There's also profound sadness that other people don't have it. [whimsical music]

   25. SSSimon Sinek24:43

       We interrupt this podcast with an ad, with authenticity. Authentic because we do our ads a little differently. And thank you to Porsche for being open to something a little different. I met up with race car driver Patrick Long. He's competed with Porsche in some of the most iconic races in the world, which is why I thought it would be safer if I did the driving. [engine revving] How did you come to Porsche?

   26. SPSpeaker25:11

       I was a young Southern California kid who was just chasing a dream of being a pro racing driver. If it was for one weekend or for what it ended up being multiple decades. I was living in Europe, and I had a phone call from Porsche. I showed up to Germany not knowing much. I knew I loved Porsches as a kid growing up, but I didn't really understand what was behind this brand, their story, their DNA, and just how successful they've been in racing.

   27. SSSimon Sinek25:37

       Every little boy wants to be an astronaut or a race car driver. Where did your dream of being a race car driver, where did it come from, and, and how did you actually get into it?

   28. SPSpeaker25:44

       Yeah, my little league was go-karts, and at six years old on a closed circuit dirt road, I was in control of my destiny. There was no one telling me what to do.

   29. SSSimon Sinek25:54

       What was your first professional race? How old were you?

   30. SPSpeaker25:57

       I was 21, and I was racing on the German DTM schedule in a one make 911 Cup Series where down to the steering wheel and the seat, everybody's cars were identical as delivered from Porsche, and basically the driver was the differentiator. It was my college career, if you will. You know, I was the first non-German to be signed into the Porsche junior team, the farm league, where they developed their factory fighter pilots. By the fourth race, I had my first victory, and I think people were shocked-
9. 26:47 – 31:42

   How to get a friend like that: fight rules, self-work, and choosing to show up

   1. SSSimon Sinek26:47

      How do people get a friend like that?

   2. FBFredrik Backman26:50

      I mean, part of it is just I was lucky, just the way that I talk about y- you know, my wife. Well, I, I was lucky. Um, I, you know, I ran into someone, um, and they were my humans, me and Riyadh, my, my best friend. And, and that friend group, like, that I still have, like, those three friends I still have in my life, and it's... They're still my, my, my most important people. And, and, and I figured out with them, and then I f- did the same with my wife. We figured out that, okay, there, there's, there's two things that we need to be aware of here. First, we need to have rules of fighting, if that makes sense. And, like, my wife and I, very early on in our relationship, when we had been just started dating, like, we, we agreed that we would never, in a fight-

   3. SSSimon Sinek27:52

      Yeah

   4. FBFredrik Backman27:52

      ... no one could say... No one could threaten with, like, "Maybe we shouldn't be together. Maybe we shouldn't... You know, maybe, well, maybe this relationship is a mistake. May- maybe you should leave me." Like, no one could do that because that's like an atomic bomb in a, in, in, in... Like, the discussion is immediately over. If someone-

   5. SSSimon Sinek28:13

      Yeah

   6. FBFredrik Backman28:13

      ... threatens to leave-

   7. SSSimon Sinek28:14

      Yeah

   8. FBFredrik Backman28:15

      ... then the argument is immediately over, then you won. Like, we set up boundaries for fighting, and I think we talked about the way we fi- Like, after the fight, we would talk for hours and hours and hours and hours about the fight-

   9. SSSimon Sinek28:29

      Yeah

   10. FBFredrik Backman28:29

       ... if that made sense. Like, we would try to analyze each other, and we would try to figure each other out. And I think it was coming from a place where we understood that we are very, very, very different.

   11. SSSimon Sinek28:43

       Yeah.

   12. FBFredrik Backman28:43

       And I think it's the same thing with my wife. We knew immediately going into that relationship, like, we are really different people.

   13. SSSimon Sinek28:50

       Yeah.

   14. FBFredrik Backman28:50

       This is gonna be a journey for both of us. When you're young, people tell you that, "Well, a relationship is a lot of work." And when you're young, you think it sounds unromantic because you think like, "Well, in that case, it's not true love. If you have to work on it, it's not true love."

   15. SSSimon Sinek29:09

       Mm.

   16. FBFredrik Backman29:09

       But that's because when you're young, you don't understand that the work is not on the relationship, and it's not, it's not... It's on you. The work is on you. That's what people mean when they say a relationship is a lot of work. The work is on, on, it's on me. It's I have to work. I have to work on who I am, communicating better, explaining my feelings better, understanding me better so that I can explain myself better. But also the fact that, I mean, me and Riyadh has d- we've been friend for 30-plus years. Um, my wife and I have been together for 18 years, and we change all the time. Like, we've changed a lot. Like, we've changed immensely. It like, the w- you, you find someone, and you get married, and then you have kids. Like, you become a completely different person in some regards when you have kids because then, then there's this whole other responsibility that I have too.

   17. SSSimon Sinek30:13

       You're unraveling some of the tropes and the, and the, and the punchlines, you know, like relationships are a lot of work. And to your point, it was like, yes, the, the work is on yourself. Like, that's, that's not... People don't say that. Um, you know, "I love my relationship because I've been working on myself, and I'm a better version of myself."And that's my definition of a great relationship, whether it's a friendship or a romantic relationship. But you have to do the growth yourself. The other person can only support you. They can't grow for you. And, and I think when we talk about sort of the sadness that goes along with hearing about a friendship like yours, I can't accept that it's a lottery. I can't accept that it's like some people are good-looking, some people are smart, and some people get great friends. Like, I can't accept that. You know, the good-looking and the, and the smart, you know, that's genetics. That really is a lottery. But the friendship, I, I know you said you were lucky, and that's probably how you feel, but based on everything you've been describing in the f- in the, in your relationship about the, the choice to do the work and your friend's choice to spend time with his family and his choice to spend time with his, his, his girlfriend, I think the way you get one of those friends that you want is you choose to be that friend first. You choose to show up at someone's house and say, "I'm here. Give me, give me, give me something to do." That's the work on yourself. Like, first you have to choose to be the good friend. Your friend made the choice to be a good friend, and what he got back was a great friend.

10. 31:42 – 35:44

    Effort you can see: being ‘good enough’ through trying and consistency

    1. FBFredrik Backman31:42

       What's the term you use in business? ROI, return of investment. That's why I talk more about quantity time than quality time.

    2. SSSimon Sinek31:49

       Yeah.

    3. FBFredrik Backman31:49

       I think it's a return of investment for me. I'm the same way with my kids. I'm, um, I know that I'm not a great dad. I know that I'm not... Like, I'm aiming to be an okay dad. I, I know that I... Because I live in my head a lot, and I'm easily distracted, and I have all these things, and I, I, I'm bad with stress and all of that, but I'm, I'm like if I'm around enough, then I will have time to make up for my mistakes.

    4. SSSimon Sinek32:20

       Does your wife think that you're a bad dad?

    5. FBFredrik Backman32:24

       No, I think she would agree that I'm, I'm, I, I'm easily distracted. I think she, she would say that I'm a good dad because I really try.

    6. SSSimon Sinek32:33

       So-

    7. FBFredrik Backman32:33

       She... That's, that's-

    8. SSSimon Sinek32:34

       So-

    9. FBFredrik Backman32:35

       Because that's her def-

    10. SSSimon Sinek32:36

        Yeah

    11. FBFredrik Backman32:36

        ... that's, that's her definition.

    12. SSSimon Sinek32:38

        She's a better judge of the quality of your parenting than you, I would imagine, because they're her kids, too, and she doesn't want you to screw them up.

    13. FBFredrik Backman32:46

        No, no, no, she tells me that a lot. Like, "You," like, "You, you are a good..." Like, "They think you're a good dad because they can see how hard you try to be a good dad. And then you make mistakes sometimes, and that's all right. And, you know, you mess it up." But I think it's the same way with friendships, and it's the same way with, with my relationship with my wife. The thing we invest in is our friendship, if I, if that makes sense. Like, if we would... Like, I, I view, I view that relationship v- as it's, it's a romantic relationship. It's husband and wife. It's all of that, but it's also at its core we invested in, in, in, in our friendship, like hanging out, doing things together. Like-

    14. SSSimon Sinek33:30

        This, this whole conversation to me goes right back to where we started on the four-minute speech you gave at Simon & Schuster, which is you tried. And I think, I think y- that y- you're tying together a lot of things. Uh, I, I've said a lot of things before that you're tying together for me. My girlfriend, we were having a fight that went like this. I said, "Here's what I got right, and here's what you got wrong." And she responded, "Well, here's what I got right, and here's what you got wrong." And you can see how this goes back and forth. And at some point, like, you know, I, I, and I interrupted the fight and said, "This is not gonna go anywhere good. I'm changing the rules, and the rules are I'm gonna tell you what I did wrong, I'm gonna tell you what you did right, then you're gonna go." And that's what we did, and within 30 seconds what we both discovered is we're trying. And I think this idea of letting people see that you're trying, not just tell them that you're trying, but let them see that you're trying. When you show up at someone's house and say, "I'm here. Give me something to do," meaning, "I don't know what to say. I didn't prepare anything. I don't have a sense of what right or wrong is in this situation, but I'm here. Give me something to do," is the greatest indication of I'm trying. Telling your friends, "Guys, just so you know, I, this will be the last time I come to movie night," which is I'm, I'm gonna try this relationship thing. And that's the respect we had for him is, was the effort. The, the, the visual effort, the measurable effort is the most romantic thing in the world in, in a romantic relationship or a friendship or a work relationship, is effort that someone is investing in, in a person, not that they get it right. And I think you're an amazing father because you're trying so hard to be a good father.

    15. FBFredrik Backman35:28

        Yeah, and I, I think it's-

    16. SSSimon Sinek35:30

        I, this is... I don't know why I'm so emotional today. Like, I have close friends, and I have a good relationship with my folks, and they are both amazing parents, you know? I don't know why this is touching me so much.

11. 35:44 – 37:15

    Humans vs. people: the chosen inner circle and why difference matters

    1. FBFredrik Backman35:44

       I mean, this is super emotional to me, too, because we're talking about, you know, we're talking about these are my most important rela- like, my wife, my kids, and my best friends. These are my, you know, humans. I, I always separate, like, I always try to explain that, that I don't... There are people, and there are humans. Like, humans, you have maybe seven humans that you chose. These are your... And then peop- people are the ones at the airport. You can be annoyed by people and still love humans. My best friend and my wife, if they would have, if they would have gone on one of, like, the matchmaking websites or something-

    2. SSSimon Sinek36:25

       [laughs]

    3. FBFredrik Backman36:25

       ... one of the apps or whatever it is now. It's, like, I, I, I'm too old for that, but I'm too old to understand the technology now. But if, like, if they would have put themselves through an algorithm and said-... find me a person, they would have never found me.

    4. SSSimon Sinek36:43

       Yeah.

    5. FBFredrik Backman36:43

       Like, never in a million years would an algorithm have said, "This, this lunatic, he's the guy [laughs] for you." Never. I was fortunate in the way that I stumble upon people early on in my life that was very different from me.

    6. SSSimon Sinek37:00

       Yeah.

    7. FBFredrik Backman37:00

       And I found out very quickly that that was a good thing for me.

    8. SSSimon Sinek37:04

       Yeah.

    9. FBFredrik Backman37:04

       That was... Like, I needed people who were not like me. Um-

    10. SSSimon Sinek37:10

        Yeah

    11. FBFredrik Backman37:10

        ... so, so that I could look at their best qualities and strive for them.

12. 37:15 – 44:50

    Healthy self-deprecation, Swedish Jantelagen, and learning from opposites

    1. SSSimon Sinek37:15

       I wanna sort of double-click on one other thing, which is you're very self-deprecating, and there's a difference between being self-deprecating and being, uh, having low self-esteem. And I think you are self-deprecating. You accept you. I think you find you funny. I think your ego is healthy, and I think the ability to be self-deprecating in a way that you're i- is owning e- either real shortcomings or perceived shortcomings is by, by naming it, you can say, "I'm working on it. I'm trying." You can make it a thing, as opposed to not naming it. Keeping it hidden means it can never be addressed, it can never grow, and it, and that then becomes an insecurity. And I, I'm fascinated by healthy self-deprecators, you know, where by putting it out-

    2. FBFredrik Backman38:12

       I wasn't sure that's the best way to put it. How?

    3. SSSimon Sinek38:13

       I, I mean, I do. I, I think there's a difference between going, "Uh, I'm, I'm no good at this," versus, "Yeah. I'm, I'm no good at this." But it's not a giving up. It's an identifying, and that's the difference. I think low self-esteem is giving up and accepting, "This is, this is my lot. This is how I am." Self-deprecation, when it's healthy, is simply identifying something and saying, "Look, I'm s- maybe... Sometimes it goes better, sometimes it get worse. I'm working on it, you know. Haven't conquered it yet, but still doing it, and it probably might take me my whole life and I may never get to the standard I want, but I'm working on it." And I think the ability to put it out there does so many things. A, I think it's super healthy. It also makes you super authentic. It also allows others to support you in whatever journey you're trying to grow in. I mean, I watched your speech and I was so inspired by it, because I just love that you just put it out there and said, "This is what I'm gonna try and do, and here you go." I, I also wonder how much of it is just 'cause you're Swedish. You know, what is it, Jante? What's it called? Jante?

    4. FBFredrik Backman39:16

       Jante.

    5. SSSimon Sinek39:17

       Jante.

    6. FBFredrik Backman39:18

       Jantelag. The, the Jantelag.

    7. SSSimon Sinek39:19

       Yeah, the Jantelag.

    8. FBFredrik Backman39:20

       I think there's, uh, there's a certain part of it.

    9. SSSimon Sinek39:22

       Just so that people know what we're talking about, like, do they teach it at school in Sweden?

    10. FBFredrik Backman39:27

        Yeah. It's just a common... Everybody knows about it.

    11. SSSimon Sinek39:30

        Like, the Jantelag is don't big up yourself, never brag, never think you're better than anybody else, don't seek attention.

    12. FBFredrik Backman39:36

        Yeah.

    13. SSSimon Sinek39:36

        It's all of these forced humility things, and Swedes... You know, I know, like, if you walk through the very, very fancy street with all the fancy shops in downtown Stockholm, like in the Gucci and the Prada, in the window nothing has a logo on it. You know, no conspicuous displays of wealth is looked down upon, and talking about yourself and bragging about yourself.

    14. FBFredrik Backman39:58

        I think a cer- certain part of it, sure, and I think it's... To a certain extent I defend Jante. I think it's [laughs] ... Uh, I mean, for, for, for some of us it's kinda good. It's, it's like y- you know, don't get too full of yourself. The bad quality of it is what you call crabs in a bucket. Um, like one crab tries to get out of the buckets, and the other crabs pull him back down.

    15. SSSimon Sinek40:24

        Yeah.

    16. FBFredrik Backman40:24

        But I think part of it is that Sweden is a small country, and I think it's the same if you grow up in America but in a small town.

    17. SSSimon Sinek40:34

        Yeah.

    18. FBFredrik Backman40:34

        It kinda... It does something to you. You have this idea that we kinda have to stick together a little bit.

    19. SSSimon Sinek40:42

        Yes.

    20. FBFredrik Backman40:42

        Uh, and we have to find a way to get along, because there's fewer of us. And so there... I think there's a, there's a positive quality to it, but I also think... Honestly, I think it's a huge part of it. I've always looked for people who are different from me.

    21. SSSimon Sinek40:59

        Yeah.

    22. FBFredrik Backman40:59

        I think I, I very... It was good for me to very early on in life understand, like, the people that I butt head with, like, the people that I get annoyed by-

    23. SSSimon Sinek41:12

        Yeah

    24. FBFredrik Backman41:12

        ... are very often people who are more like me.

    25. SSSimon Sinek41:16

        Yeah.

    26. FBFredrik Backman41:16

        Like, I get annoyed with someone at the airport, and my, my wife and my kids will go like, "Yeah, because he's like you. [laughs] That's how you are when you are having a bad day. That's how you are when you're annoyed by something." It was a blessing for me very early on in my life that I have stumbled on, but also have sought out, people who were very different from me, so that... I mean, what you call se- self-deprecating, it's also... Part of it is also that, you know, if you hang out with people who are very different from you, you kinda learn how to make jokes about how different you are.

    27. SSSimon Sinek41:52

        Yeah. Yeah.

    28. FBFredrik Backman41:52

        So you, you, you understand the way-

    29. SSSimon Sinek41:57

        Yeah

    30. FBFredrik Backman41:57

        ... that you are different from the people around you. Sure, it can be self-deprecating, but it can also be this, we never feel that we deserve each other.
13. 44:50 – 48:41

    Fear of not being enough: expectations, insecurity, and preemptive anger

    1. SSSimon Sinek44:50

       I wish I could have 10 more hours. The... I, I, I'm so profoundly moved by this idea of time and choice, you know? And I'm so, I'm so curious about Riad, if he's, if he's, if his, his obsession with time, if it's born out of fear or something else.

    2. FBFredrik Backman45:12

       So I d- you know, this is a very personal thing to say about someone that you, you have in your life and that, that I love y- y- you know, immensely. I think it's a fear. For him, it's always been a fear of not being enough for people.

    3. SSSimon Sinek45:27

       Yeah.

    4. FBFredrik Backman45:27

       Like, that's his main fear. For a long time, he stru- like every... If you rise within a company, you get a new role, you become... All of a sudden you're the boss of people you used to work with-

    5. SSSimon Sinek45:40

       Yeah

    6. FBFredrik Backman45:40

       ... and you have to change your identity a little. You have to... There's a certain, there's a new responsibility now, and I have to think differently. I have to be of service to others and all that.

    7. SSSimon Sinek45:49

       Yeah.

    8. FBFredrik Backman45:50

       I think he, he had this self-esteem problem. At every new level, he felt, "Everyone knows more than I do. They have more education than I do. They come from this huge background. They bring so much to the table-

    9. SSSimon Sinek46:05

       Yeah

    10. FBFredrik Backman46:06

        ... and I don't have anything that I'm bringing." So he always felt that he had to outwork everybody. He had-

    11. SSSimon Sinek46:11

        Yeah

    12. FBFredrik Backman46:11

        ... to become the best prepared, the, the mo- Like, he had to just find so much things to bring to the table. Everyone else just showed up, but he felt, "To deserve a seat at a table, I have to bring so much more than everyone else." This is something that I learned later on in life that I'm dealing, trying to learn now, trying to deal with now, but I think I kinda... I developed this fear of disappointing people, which my wife has told me [scoffs] a lot. Like, "You, you have this fear of disappointing people, and it's so strong in you that you do, like, you try to do too much. And then when you don't feel appreciated or you feel like, 'Oh, I think they're disappointed in me,' you kinda lash out e- even before they've reacted. You're so afraid that they'll be disappointed that you're, you lash out at them. You become angry before they're even disappointed in you."

    13. SSSimon Sinek47:15

        They're even disappointed.

    14. FBFredrik Backman47:16

        Yeah. You, you k- kinda, you, you took it out in advance.

    15. SSSimon Sinek47:19

        Oh.

    16. FBFredrik Backman47:19

        And I'm really trying to become better at that. My wife told me i- in so many words, "Sometimes you, the only thing you want is for the kids to be happy, and you want that so much. So if we're at, at some place, and you wanted them to be so happy when we got to this place, and you get kind of upset with them for not being happy enough, [laughs] and, and, and that's not on them, that's on you because you raised your expectations of how happy you were gonna make them. And so this is, this is a you problem."

    17. SSSimon Sinek47:56

        I had a guest on my, on, on the podcast named Mo Gawdat, and he talked about expectations and fantasy. Like, and what happens is we have these expectations, we have these fantasies, and then what happens is if, if real life doesn't match that, that's where the disappointment happens. So you, you, you plan something for your kids, and in your mind they scream and shout, "Dad, you're the ma- This is the best thing ever," and that's, that's the fantasy that you concocted in your mind when you show up. And when reality shows up and it's not that, it's the delta that leaves you so disappointed, leaves us so disappointed. And his whole point was, like, can you let go of the fantasy? That you plan the thing and the reaction will be whatever the reaction will be, and trying to let go of the expectation, uh, because you're only gonna be disappointed.

    18. FBFredrik Backman48:39

        No, but it's, it's entirely true.

14. 48:41 – 53:20

    Understanding bullies without excusing them: finding the bully in yourself

    1. SSSimon Sinek48:41

       I've been plagued by this my whole life. Like, I, I'm so, I am more excited for the things I plan for people than they are, and I, I've had to learn-That the gesture is the thing and not the reaction. Uh, and I still struggle with it. Here's another question for you: How can we understand bullies without excusing them?

    2. FBFredrik Backman49:06

       I think for me it's to see how much I have in common with them. I write books, and it's not to be self-deprecating, it's not to be humble, but I often tell people that the, the, the, the worst people in my books, the worst characters, they're very often from me. The most annoying characters, the, the characters with a lot of flaws and a lot of... who do stupid things, they're very often from me, and the best characters are from people around me. Those are the people that I aspire to. If people find something in my writing or in my characters that they connect to, it's very often that. I don't start... I, I don't s- I don't write about the best parts of me. I write about the really, you know, the parts of me that I'm not super proud of. The, the... You know, when I'm envious or, or I'm... You know, I'm, I'm petty or I'm, I'm m- mean. I don't excuse bullies by saying, "Oh, but there's good in them." I s- excuse them by seeing the, the, the things that they do, they are within me too, and maybe I'm not that far from them, that I wish I was, if that makes-

    3. SSSimon Sinek50:15

       Oh, that is such a brilliant device, which is ins- instead of forcing each other to find the good in the people we don't like or disagree with, but rather to find what we have in common with the people we don't like or who bully us. Uh, I, I find that much more humbling, and it's not so, it's not so arrogant, which is, "Boy, I'm pretty flawed, too." And I, I think what it does is it, it produces empathy. It helps you understand another person who's, who we don't like or disagree with.

    4. FBFredrik Backman50:45

       I do that a lot with my wife, that I say, you know, "Someone did something at a..." You know, we see someone do something or say something or behave badly, and we come home. You know, maybe we're at a party or a dinner or something, and I come home and I say, "You know what? I, I saw him say this," or, "I saw him behaving this way," and I got this shame that that is probably something that I do once in a while, and I have to become better at fighting that part of me. And it's not to be, it's not to be self-deprecating or humble, but I think that I'm, in large parts, a narcissist. I really do. Uh, I just fight it, and I think that's... maybe that was my, you know, survival mechanism kicking in, that, that I have to find people around me who are different from me and better from me so that they constantly remind me not to be-

    5. SSSimon Sinek51:46

       Yeah

    6. FBFredrik Backman51:46

       ... a jerk.

    7. SSSimon Sinek51:47

       Yeah.

    8. FBFredrik Backman51:47

       Uh, because I, I, I struggle with my narcissism all the time. Like, I, I, I fight it actively to be-

    9. SSSimon Sinek51:56

       Yeah

    10. FBFredrik Backman51:56

        ... to be better because I think I... if I let it loose, it would just... I would, I would be a horrible, horrible person.

    11. SSSimon Sinek52:02

        I think of myself as an idiot. Um, there are people who are much smarter than me, much more disciplined than me, much more schooled than me. I... The thing that I have, though, that I do recognize is... And I, and I'm, and I don't joke when I say that I'm an idiot. I'm not being self-deprecating, and I'm not sort of... It's not false humility. The one thing that I'm very comfortable being is o- out- outwardly curious, and saying, "I don't know," or saying, "Can you explain that again, please? Because I don't understand the way you explained it the first time." And saying, and asking the questions that other people are afraid to ask 'cause they... it'll make them look dumb. And I already know I'm an idiot, so I'm not gonna look any dumber than I already think I am, and so I ask those questions. And I... The result is I get to learn more because I simply ask the question. And hopefully whatever I learn I wanna share, but I don't believe in being selfish with anything I learn because I think the lessons are interesting. And the other thing I hate is ta-das. Like, I hate... I write my books... I never want it to be like, "Wait for it. Wait for it, and look how smart I am." I, I always want my reader to come to my conclusion one page before I reveal it, so that by the time I reveal it they go, "Oh, yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah. That makes perfect sense. Yeah. Of course."

15. 53:20 – 58:06

    A generous way of communicating: accessible ideas, cardamom buns, and closing warmth

    1. FBFredrik Backman53:20

       But it's the-

    2. SSSimon Sinek53:22

       And-

    3. FBFredrik Backman53:22

       ... it's the whole, uh... I think it's, uh, it's a very generous way of writing. It's a very generous way of telling a story.

    4. SSSimon Sinek53:28

       It's why I like Sweden, and it's why I like Jönköping, and it's why I like... I just wanted to put down affirmatively. But it's why I like all those things because, because... And you said it, like, it's that small country, small town, like, it's either us or none of us. Like, I don't necessarily like you, but, like, we gotta do this, you know? So we all have different jobs to make the machine go, and just everybody has to do their job. But it's... Every job is important to, to the machine.

    5. FBFredrik Backman53:56

       Because I write, that's what I do. I, I, I'm only interested in, like, writing and storytelling.

    6. SSSimon Sinek54:02

       Yeah.

    7. FBFredrik Backman54:02

       But you have this incredible inclusive way of writing. You have this way of writing where you feel immediately that someone is talking with you, not to you, not down to you. There are so many people that I know, my best friend included, who will say, "I don't read a lot of books." And Reid will say, like, "They're... Like, I'll read Fredrik's books because he's my best friend, and... But I don't... You know, I'm not a great book reader." And he says that all the time.

    8. SSSimon Sinek54:38

       Yeah.

    9. FBFredrik Backman54:38

       But he's read all of yours.

    10. SSSimon Sinek54:39

        Yeah.

    11. FBFredrik Backman54:40

        And I think a lot of people will say that, "No, I don't read books, but I read Simon."

    12. SSSimon Sinek54:46

        Yeah.

    13. FBFredrik Backman54:46

        And that's like the, the best compliment I get as a writer. The, the, the ones I value the most is when people come up to me at book signings, when, you know, teachers or parents and they say-No, I have a teenage kid-

    14. SSSimon Sinek55:01

        Yeah

    15. FBFredrik Backman55:01

        ... or my husband or someone in their life, and they say, "They don't read books. They don't read ever." But they read one of your books-

    16. SSSimon Sinek55:08

        Yeah

    17. FBFredrik Backman55:08

        ... and now they're reading other books.

    18. SSSimon Sinek55:10

        Yeah.

    19. FBFredrik Backman55:10

        Like, you were, like, being a gateway to harder literature, [laughs] if that makes sense. It's the greatest thing that a person can be, and I think you're opening a lot of doors to people. They read you and they feel like, "Maybe I can read other stuff, too," and that's amazing.

    20. SSSimon Sinek55:25

        Thank you, Fredrik. This is, um... I know why they gave me this question to ask you, and this is the... 'Cause I have a very strong opinion about this, this, uh, question. Um, who has the world's best cardamom bun?

    21. FBFredrik Backman55:39

        Oh, the world's best?

    22. SSSimon Sinek55:41

        Yeah.

    23. FBFredrik Backman55:41

        We do, the Swedes.

    24. SSSimon Sinek55:43

        I know a bakery in Stockholm that I will walk- I walk out of town to go to. It's called Et Bagare, and it is profoundly good how good that cardamom bun is.

    25. FBFredrik Backman55:55

        Yeah, but I think you will-

    26. SSSimon Sinek55:56

        Et-

    27. FBFredrik Backman55:56

        You would-

    28. SSSimon Sinek55:57

        ... call it raisin bun with butter. Oh, I could just eat... I could just sit there and eat bread all day.

    29. FBFredrik Backman56:03

        Yeah, but you'll get... I think from a lot of Swedes, you will get the same answer that you would get if you asked an Italian about the best pasta. They would say, "My mother."

    30. SSSimon Sinek56:16

        Well, I would like to compare your mother's to Et Bagare, and we'll have a, we'll have a bun-off.

Episode duration: 58:07