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Simon SinekHow to Breathe Out Fear with freediver Li Karlsen | A Bit of Optimism Podcast
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Drawn to the ocean, scared of the dark: why Li started freediving
Simon frames freediving as a high-stakes practice in staying calm, then asks why Li would choose such a dangerous sport. Li explains she loved the ocean but feared its depth and darkness, and wanted to explore that fear to find a sense of freedom and solitude.
- •Simon contrasts courage with bravado, emphasizing calm under pressure
- •Li describes feeling both in love with and afraid of the ocean’s deep darkness
- •She recounts being overwhelmed by fear and mental excuses early on
- •Li says moving past the mind’s limitations creates a feeling of complete freedom and solitude
What it feels like at depth: comfort, danger near the surface, and breath-hold realities
Simon probes whether panic about running out of air shows up during deep dives. Li explains that depth can feel physically comfortable due to lung compression, while the final meters near the surface are the most dangerous as lungs expand and the urge to breathe returns.
- •Li says returning to the surface can feel like leaving peace for “messy” normal life
- •She explains lung compression and how the brain perceives oxygen differently at depth
- •Li describes why the last 10 meters of ascent are the most dangerous part of a dive
- •They clarify her various records and what her 80-meter dive typically requires in time and effort
Mauritius mornings: socializing with sperm whales and diving with dolphins
Simon shifts to Li’s life between Stockholm and Mauritius and asks about her frequent swims with sperm whales. Li describes how the whales approach, how she recognizes individuals, and what typical breath-hold dives look like when she’s with whales and dolphins.
- •Li says sperm whales often come to the diver, using echolocation clicks and curiosity
- •She explains identifying whales by belly patterns and scars, including scars from squid fights
- •Li describes how often she goes out to see whales and shares an example of a calf she recognizes
- •She compares typical dive durations with dolphins and notes sperm whales can hold their breath far longer
- •Li describes rapid surface recovery (seconds) between short dives, focusing on exhaling CO2
Under-ice freediving: the fear, the cold, and why it mattered to her
Simon challenges the logic of diving under ice where surfacing isn’t possible anywhere except at holes. Li says she’d feared getting stuck under ice since childhood, and that the fear was limiting her performance by triggering stress even in unrelated dive settings.
- •Simon lays out the core risk: under ice, you can’t simply surface if anything goes wrong
- •Li connects childhood fear of ice entrapment to stress during competitive freediving
- •She describes how CO2 buildup can generate excuses and stress that drive her to surface early
- •Li explains deciding she had to face the fear directly, with a documentary crew accompanying the attempt
Greenland attempt: time pressure, moving ice, and a dive with no safety line
Li details how conditions in Greenland forced major last-minute changes and elevated risk. She explains the logistical setbacks, how pack ice and icebergs move, why they couldn’t use safety lines, and what that meant for navigation and buoyancy under the ice.
- •Li says travel delays cut the plan down to two days, leaving little time to scout
- •Her exit hole froze, forcing a new exit hole she couldn’t properly familiarize herself with
- •She contrasts freshwater ice (more uniform) with seawater pack ice and shifting icebergs
- •Li explains why safety lines weren’t feasible and how movement and crevices increased danger
- •She describes buoyancy risks with a thicker wetsuit: too buoyant can trap you; too deep can cause sinking
The tunnel dive itself: flow state, near-failure, and spotting the strobe
Simon asks directly whether she panicked, and Li describes an intense flow state with little memory of the swim. She recounts a critical moment where she believed she might fail and go to the safety diver’s regulator, then saw the strobe marking the exit hole and committed to finishing.
- •Li describes the dive as the strongest flow state of her life, with minimal recall
- •She says she was confident in her physical capability but felt conditions were “crazy”
- •Li recounts aiming for a safety diver and thinking she might pass out and need air
- •She describes seeing the strobe and making a last-second push to the exit
- •Simon interprets it as realizing the finish line is just around the corner
Freediving as self-medication: anxiety, PTSD layers, and the ‘wall’ at 60 meters
Simon returns to how freediving changed Li as a person, noting she talks about it like meditation rather than a sport. Li explains she used training as self-medication, describes anxiety and layers of PTSD, and shares how she hit an emotional and physical barrier around 60 meters that forced deeper internal work.
- •Li describes freediving as a medicine that affected her physically, emotionally, and mentally
- •She shares she began freediving while still working in the army and felt she had nowhere to ‘ventilate’
- •Li says therapy helped her recognize anxiety and layers of PTSD
- •She describes an ‘invisible wall’ around 60 meters that felt more emotional than mental
- •Li explains needing to step far back and work from within to progress
Breathing mechanics for calm: nose, diaphragm, and longer exhales than inhales
Li explains that to hold your breath well, you must first learn to breathe properly—and that many people create unnecessary stress through poor breathing patterns. She teaches a practical pattern: relaxed posture, nasal breathing with the diaphragm/rib cage, and a passive exhale that’s longer than the inhale.
- •Li contrasts shallow mouth/chest breathing (linked to stress) with nasal diaphragmatic breathing
- •She emphasizes longer exhales than inhales as a simple lever for relaxation
- •Li walks Simon through a short nasal inhale and a longer, passive exhale
- •She distinguishes true diaphragm use (rib cage movement) from ‘belly breathing’ driven by abdominal muscles
- •Li says she uses this awareness in everyday life (walking, at a bus stop, during conversations)
Control what you can: breath as real-time stress management and ‘exhaling’ what you carry
Simon connects Li’s approach to Viktor Frankl’s idea of controlling your response, arguing breath control is easier to practice than “changing mindset.” Li and Simon underline that freediving makes stress management non-negotiable, and Li reframes stress relief as letting go—focusing on exhaling CO2 rather than trying to inhale more oxygen.
- •Li says she’s more playful now and less dominated by rigid, anxious ‘Captain Li’ patterns
- •They discuss breath as one of the few things you can control even when environments are uncontrollable
- •Simon reframes freediving as managing panic and stress rather than simply holding breath
- •Li argues you can’t meaningfully ‘inhale more oxygen’ in normal conditions; the key is exhaling CO2
- •Li draws an analogy: stress relief often comes from deloading and letting go rather than taking on more
Sleeping with mouth tape: training nasal breathing and why the nose clears
Simon asks about Li taping her mouth shut at night to ensure nasal breathing. Li credits the idea to a book she read, describes why nasal breathing helps (including in cold climates), and explains Simon’s experience of a clogged nose clearing quickly—linking it to CO2 effects on mucus.
- •Simon describes Li’s use of a small piece of medical tape to encourage nasal breathing during sleep
- •Li says she learned it from the book ‘Breathe’ and that it works well for her
- •They discuss practical reasons nasal breathing can help (warming/filtering air; less dryness)
- •Simon shares that his nose cleared within seconds after taping, despite feeling blocked initially
- •Li explains the role of CO2 accumulation and slower nasal exhale in loosening mucus
CO2 tolerance, exercise breathing, and the stress loop (sympathetic vs parasympathetic)
Simon challenges how nasal breathing can work during vigorous exercise, and Li describes it as a long transition that sometimes still requires mouth exhale at high intensity. They dig into the key freediving insight: the urge to breathe is driven more by rising CO2 than falling oxygen, and Li explains how breathing patterns can both reflect and create stress through the autonomic nervous system.
- •Li describes gradually training nasal breathing during walking/running and adjusting pace to sustain it
- •She emphasizes that freediving performance depends heavily on buffering high CO2 and acidity
- •Simon highlights the reversal of common advice: stress relief is more about the exhale than the inhale
- •Li defines sympathetic (stress) vs parasympathetic (recovery) states and how breath influences both
- •They describe a feedback circuit where shallow breathing can signal danger to the brain and amplify panic
- •Simon compares freediving’s ‘scientifically grounded’ calm practice with lower-stakes meditation/yoga contexts
Closing reflections: applying in-the-moment breathing without perfection
Simon summarizes what he’s taking away: the ability to manage stress in real time rather than only through scheduled practices like classes or morning routines. Li encourages doing the breathing work when possible and not punishing yourself for imperfection, and Simon closes the episode.
- •Simon emphasizes using breathing tools during meetings and conflicts, not only after the fact
- •Li encourages consistency without self-criticism: do what you can, when you can
- •They thank each other and close the conversation
- •Simon delivers the show outro and subscription prompt
