How to Breathe Out Fear with freediver Li Karlsen | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Simon Sinek 0:00 Courage is not about bravado. It's about staying calm, which raises the question, how do you stay calm when everything in your body wants to panic or freak out? Well, Li Karlsen knows a lot about staying calm. A former soldier, she is now one of the world's most accomplished free divers. She holds numerous records, can hold her breath for seven minutes, and can dive down over 260 feet on one breath. Net-net, Li is a certifiable badass. But that's not the main reason I wanted to talk to her. It's what free diving has taught her about managing fear and stress, and it turns out the lessons she's learned also work above the water. Something as simple as changing how we breathe can help all of us manage our stress and fear. This is A Bit of Optimism. Li, thank you so much for doing this. Um, I'm such a fan of yours. Um, the thing that I find astonishing about your story, um, is how you got into this. When I think about free diving, you know, the thought of holding my breath and going straight down in the ocean, uh, is a horrible idea. [laughs]

Li Karlsen 1:26 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 1:27 And just to be clear, your record is you have gone down 80 meters, which is insane.

Li Karlsen 1:36 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 1:37 That's 240 feet.

Li Karlsen 1:39 Yeah, something like that.

Simon Sinek 1:41 That's not like the bottom of a pool.

Li Karlsen 1:43 That's a very, very deep pool.

Simon Sinek 1:44 It's a very, very-

Li Karlsen 1:45 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 1:45 ... deep pool, and you just hold your breath and go straight down and then come back up. What made you want to do this in the first place? 'Cause it's a very scary sport. It also has a lot of casualties. It's a dangerous sport. Um, what, what made you wanna get into this? How did you get into this?

Li Karlsen 2:03 Um, that's a good question. My mother asked me that the whole time, too. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 2:08 [laughs]

Li Karlsen 2:09 But thank you for the very nice introduction. Um, I think it was I felt limited in life because the ocean was-- I was so in love with it, and at the same time, afraid of it. So I wanted to explore those fears of, you know, going into that deep darkness where you can't see the bottom and just curiously explore what's down there. And in the beginning it, it freaked me out completely. I was so afraid, and it was like I had so many excuses in my head. But then when you get past that, you get past your mind's limitation, there's complete freedom. And being down there, it doesn't feel like you're lonely. It feels like you're in complete solitude.

Simon Sinek 3:00 Oof. A lot to unpack there.

Li Karlsen 3:02 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 3:02 So I've had the feeling where I've gone to the bottom of a pool and run out of breath, and the panic to get to the top of the pool to get to the air is real. And this is, in your words, in your life, [laughs] shallow-

Li Karlsen 3:16 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 3:17 ... uh, no matter how deep a pool I was in. When you come up from a deep dive, does that panic of running out of air happen and you learn to control it, or do you never get to that point?

Li Karlsen 3:32 It's almost the opposite. It's like the closer you get to the surface after you've been down there in the, the darkness by yourself, it's like you don't really want to return to the sur- surface because it's, it's messy, and there's noise, and there's-- you know, your brain turns on again. So when you get up there, it's almost like you're being rebirthed-

Simon Sinek 3:55 Mm

Li Karlsen 3:55 ... and then you have to, you know, be in the normal life again. So it's almost like you're stepping out from your real life and you get some peace. And then, like, physically what's happening to you when you dive is that your lung, they, they compress. So it's actually very comfortable-

Simon Sinek 4:13 From the, from the pressure of the, the-

Li Karlsen 4:14 Exactly

Simon Sinek 4:15 ... the water pressure.

Li Karlsen 4:15 Exactly. So just by being at 10 meters depth, around 30, 30 feet, right? Uh, your lungs are half the size, which means-

Simon Sinek 4:23 Wow

Li Karlsen 4:23 ... that if you take one breath and you go down to 10 meters and you have half the volume, your brain perceives that as you have, that you have a lot of oxygen molecules. So down there, I don't have the urge to breathe at all, unless I do something very stupid and waste a lot of energy and oxygen. So when I go up again after 10 meters, my lungs expand, and that's where I get the urge to breathe again. So the last 10 meters is the most dangerous part of the dive.

Simon Sinek 4:50 And do you have that feeling of, as I said before, do you, do you get that feeling of, "I'd like to take a breath now, please," like, in those last 10 meters?

Li Karlsen 4:59 No, I don't get that in depth, uh, in the ocean. I can get it sometimes when I'm in the pool because you're so close to the surface, so it's like your brain understands that you're actually closer to, to the air.

Simon Sinek 5:10 And just so that people understand the, the incredibleness of your record, you hold the record for holding your breath, right? The Nordic record, is that correct?

Li Karlsen 5:20 Um, there's different disciplines. So the world record that I have, it's an unofficial world record where I dove under the pack ice in Greenland, so it's ocean ice, so it's, uh, below the freezing point of, uh, fresh water because it's salt water, so it's minus two degrees. So I dove under-

Simon Sinek 5:37 Celsius?

Li Karlsen 5:38 Yeah, Celsius. Uh, I dove under the pack ice and the icebergs. And then I have Nordic and, and Swedish records in, um, uh, well, in, in the pool where you go back and forth and also for depth where I go straight down vertically.

Simon Sinek 5:54 And that, that's the 80-meter, uh, record?

Li Karlsen 5:58 Yes. That's, uh, a training record, a personal best. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 6:02 Got it.

Li Karlsen 6:02 So for-- I have the world championships now in October, so let's see how that goes.

Simon Sinek 6:06 And, and how long can you hold your breath when, when you go down, when you do this 80-meter dive? Like, how long are you under the water?

Li Karlsen 6:12 You usually calculate one meter per second. So you go down 80 seconds-ish and then up 80 seconds-ish.

Simon Sinek 6:19 So how mu- do the math for me. That's two minutes.

Li Karlsen 6:21 It's a, a b- bit more than three minutes.

Simon Sinek 6:22 A bit more than three minutes.

Li Karlsen 6:23 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 6:23 But you can hold your breath for seven, right?

Li Karlsen 6:24 Yeah, if I lay completely still, if I don't move at all.

Simon Sinek 6:28 Right, 'cause you're, obviously you're kicking your feet-

Li Karlsen 6:30 Exactly

Simon Sinek 6:30 ... to go down.

Li Karlsen 6:30 You, you're moving.

Simon Sinek 6:31 You're using energy.

Li Karlsen 6:31 Yeah, exactly.

Simon Sinek 6:33 So just w- like I can sit really still and maybe go for like a m-

Li Karlsen 6:37 Can you? [laughs]

Simon Sinek 6:38 Yeah. W- f- fair point, fair point. [laughs]

Li Karlsen 6:41 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 6:41 I'm trying to think how long I've held my breath underwater. Over a minute, but, but what I find astonishing is you can go three minutes while kicking your legs.

Li Karlsen 6:48 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 6:49 Okay, change of subject slightly-

Li Karlsen 6:50 Okay

Simon Sinek 6:51 ... about this magical life that you live. So you live in between Stockholm, Sweden-

Li Karlsen 6:56 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 6:56 ... and in Mauritius.

Li Karlsen 6:58 Yes.

Simon Sinek 6:59 You bounce between the two.

Li Karlsen 7:00 Yes.

Simon Sinek 7:01 Stockholm because I think work and life is here.

Li Karlsen 7:03 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 7:03 And Mauritius because, uh-

Li Karlsen 7:05 Oceans

Simon Sinek 7:05 ... oceans. [laughs]

Li Karlsen 7:06 Oceans.

Simon Sinek 7:07 Wh-

Li Karlsen 7:07 Dolphins, whales. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 7:09 And so you, I've seen, uh, uh, y-

Simon Sinek 7:12 and for anybody who's curious about this stuff, the magic of the, of, of what you do, go look at Li's Instagram, and you will see images that will blow your mind of you swimming with sperm whales-

Li Karlsen 7:26 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 7:26 ... every single day.

Li Karlsen 7:28 Almost, yeah.

Simon Sinek 7:29 And what I- what's interesting is you can't go scuba diving with sperm whales because the bubbles from the scuba will scare them away.

Li Karlsen 7:36 Yeah, it disturbs them.

Simon Sinek 7:37 So but if you hold your breath-

Li Karlsen 7:39 Yes

Simon Sinek 7:39 ... as your Instagram demonstrates-

Li Karlsen 7:42 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 7:43 ... you can go right up to them and socialize with them.

Li Karlsen 7:46 Yeah, usually they, they, they come to you. They check you out. They use their echolocation. It's like a clicking sound. And then they kind of invite you to the pod, and they're very playful and empathetic and then curious, especially the calves. So they usually come straight up to you, and I mean, they're like five ton, you know, calves, so it's like quite big creatures.

Simon Sinek 8:07 How big are the big sperm whales?

Li Karlsen 8:09 Uh, between 15 and 25 meters. The females are a bit, little bit, uh, smaller. They're like up to 15 meters, and the males are huge.

Simon Sinek 8:19 25, so 75 feet-

Li Karlsen 8:20 Yeah

Simon Sinek 8:20 ... for a big one.

Li Karlsen 8:21 Yeah, and up to 30 meters for the, the males.

Simon Sinek 8:24 30 meters?

Li Karlsen 8:25 Yes.

Simon Sinek 8:26 So 90 feet.

Li Karlsen 8:27 Yeah, huge. It's like a big, big bus. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 8:30 So how many times a week will you go hang out with the whales?

Li Karlsen 8:33 Uh, two to three times a week normally, in the mornings. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 8:38 [laughs]

Li Karlsen 8:39 Before my coffee. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 8:41 [laughs] Do, do you think they recognize you?

Li Karlsen 8:44 They do, yeah. I have a, one of my friends, her name is, uh, Jade, is a sperm whale calf. She recognize me instantly, and she always comes up and tries to nibble my fins.

Simon Sinek 8:55 How do you know it's the same whale? I mean, I hate to say it, but like-

Li Karlsen 8:58 Well, you rec- [laughs]

Simon Sinek 8:59 ... how can you tell the difference? [laughs]

Li Karlsen 9:01 Well, um, they have patterns on their belly.

Simon Sinek 9:04 Okay.

Li Karlsen 9:04 And they also have, uh, scars-

Simon Sinek 9:07 Oh

Li Karlsen 9:07 ... uh, on their fins. And the big ones that can dive deep, their main food is giant squids, and the squids have long tentacles. So when the whales eat them, they fight back. So if you look around the eyes of a sperm whale, you will see huge scars, and sometimes they're all fresh, like bloody from fighting with these giant squids.

Simon Sinek 9:29 Wow.

Li Karlsen 9:29 You know the, the horror movie 10 to 15-meter-long squids that lives down in the deep? They eat them. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 9:38 So you do recognize them, and they recognize you, and they come straight to you. You said, you said your friend, your buddy Jade-

Li Karlsen 9:43 Yeah

Simon Sinek 9:43 ... [laughs]

Li Karlsen 9:44 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 9:45 ... which is a 15-meter whale-

Li Karlsen 9:47 Yes

Simon Sinek 9:47 ... uh, comes to hang out with you, and you, always comes to you, so you recognize this whale-

Li Karlsen 9:51 Yeah

Simon Sinek 9:51 ... that always comes to you. How, how, how long can you hold your breath when you go diving with the, with the whales?

Li Karlsen 9:56 Uh, I usually dive down to around 10 meters with them, and I stay for one and a half to two minutes, so as long as a dolphin. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 10:04 [laughs] That's what dolphin, they hold their breath one and a half, two minutes.

Li Karlsen 10:06 Yeah, n- 90 seconds. Yeah, a dolphin hold their breath for one and a half minutes.

Simon Sinek 10:10 Are there s-

Li Karlsen 10:10 And the sperm whale hold their breath for one and a half hours.

Simon Sinek 10:13 Wow.

Li Karlsen 10:14 Yeah. Yeah. And the funny thing with sperm whales is that they have, their lungs is 1,200 liters by the surface, and when they dow down, dive down to 2,000 meters where they hunt for these squids, their lung size is six liters-ish, which is the same size as yours when you're sitting here.

Simon Sinek 10:34 Wow, from the c- from the compression from the-

Li Karlsen 10:36 Yeah

Simon Sinek 10:36 ... from the water pressure.

Li Karlsen 10:37 That's the pressure, yeah.

Simon Sinek 10:38 Wow. So do, are there dolphins out there as well?

Li Karlsen 10:43 Yeah. Yeah, spinner dolphins and bottlenose d- dolphins.

Simon Sinek 10:46 So you can dive with the dolphins for the same length of time that the dolphins dive.

Li Karlsen 10:50 Yes.

Simon Sinek 10:50 Can you take a breath that quickly, though? Because they can take a quick breath and go down for another minute and a half. You can't do that.

Li Karlsen 10:55 Yeah, that's why I sleep with the tape on my mouth-

Simon Sinek 10:57 [laughs]

Li Karlsen 10:57 ... to buffer the CO2. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 10:59 [laughs]

Li Karlsen 10:59 That's the main reason. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 11:01 How much time do you need at the surface to hold your breath to go down for a minute and a half to two minutes?

Li Karlsen 11:06 Uh, five to seven seconds.

Simon Sinek 11:08 Oh, that's it?

Li Karlsen 11:09 Yeah. It's the exhaling is to get the CO2 out, and then you dive again, and I do that a few rounds.

Simon Sinek 11:16 And so you can go diving with dolphins.

Li Karlsen 11:18 Yeah. I play with dolphins.

Simon Sinek 11:21 The images of you on Instagram with the whales I find incredible, and then you go sometimes see them when they're sleeping, and they're all, they're all-

Li Karlsen 11:28 Vertical

Simon Sinek 11:29 ... vertical.

Li Karlsen 11:29 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 11:29 There's like this whole pod of whales just hanging out in the middle of the ocean vertical.

Li Karlsen 11:32 Yeah, it's like a forest of whales.

Simon Sinek 11:33 Which is the craziest image.

Li Karlsen 11:35 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 11:35 And the images of you diving under the ice.

Li Karlsen 11:38 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 11:38 We have to talk about that. Now-

Li Karlsen 11:40 Sure

Simon Sinek 11:40 ... diving

Simon Sinek 11:41 under the ice, as if, as if free diving isn't stupid enough.

Li Karlsen 11:45 [laughs] Or cool. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 11:49 Or cool.

Li Karlsen 11:50 Stupid or cool.

Simon Sinek 11:51 Yeah, it's a fine line-

Li Karlsen 11:51 Mm

Simon Sinek 11:51 ... between what's stupid and what's cool. Uh, why on earth would you dive under the ice when if you l- if there's anything that goes wrong, you actually cannot get to the surface? It's not going straight down like free diving. It's going in a hole, swimming horizontally to another hole.

Li Karlsen 12:14 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 12:14 And so if you get the calculation wrong, if you go in the wrong direction, if you run out of air before you get to the hole, you cannot get out.

Li Karlsen 12:22 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 12:22 That is truly horror movie stuff-

Li Karlsen 12:24 Yeah

Simon Sinek 12:24 ... getting stuck under the ice.

Li Karlsen 12:25 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 12:26 What possessed you to choose to do that?

Li Karlsen 12:30 That was-

Simon Sinek 12:30 And it's freezing fricking cold.

Li Karlsen 12:32 Yeah, it's, it's very cold. It's beyond cold, cold. Uh-

Simon Sinek 12:35 I mean, you were in Greenland when you did this, which is-

Li Karlsen 12:37 Yeah

Simon Sinek 12:37 ... notoriously cold. [laughs]

Li Karlsen 12:39 The coldest, m- most inva- like, yeah, non-friendly place on this planet.

Simon Sinek 12:43 So what, what possessed you wanna do this?

Li Karlsen 12:46 I was terrified of getting stuck under the ice from when I was a kid.

Simon Sinek 12:51 I, by the way-

Li Karlsen 12:52 Yeah

Simon Sinek 12:52 ... everyone is terrified of getting [laughs] stuck under the ice.

Li Karlsen 12:54 Yes, completely the same. Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 12:55 This is, this is not, this is not unique to you.

Li Karlsen 12:57 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 12:58 Like, some people are afraid of heights, but not everybody.

Li Karlsen 13:00 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 13:00 Everybody's afraid of getting stuck under the ice.

Li Karlsen 13:02 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 13:02 Okay, so you were afraid of getting stuck under the ice as a kid. You live in Sweden, so that's a real thing.

Li Karlsen 13:06 Yeah. The thing was it was preventing me from living to my full potential because when I became an athlete and started competing in freediving, um, the stress, the carbon dioxide that accumulated, it brings you not only excuses why you should go up to the surface, like, "Why are you doing this? This is super stupid." Um, but it was creating so much stress in me that I was, um, coming up to the surface. That was part of my emotional blockade because I was imagining all of these different ways that I could die on, where even if I was in super warm waters in the Philippines diving, or if, um, I was in the pool in Eric Dalsbadet, which is the national arena here in Sweden, I was imagining having a layer of ice that was preventing me from coming up to breathe when I was down there, and that was stressing me out so much that it was preventing me to, to reach my f- full potential, right? So I figured that I, I have to face this fear. Um, so I had the possibility to... We have been shooting a documentary for about one and a half years, and I told these guys about my fear and my challenge, and they were like, "Hey, we wanna tag along and, and film that. And if you fail, that's actually good for the production." [laughs]

Simon Sinek 14:25 So if you die-

Li Karlsen 14:26 Not dying, but-

Simon Sinek 14:26 ... under the ice

Li Karlsen 14:27 ... like, not, it's okay if you don't, we don't want you to, to push to your maximum limit. We want to follow you when you meet your challenge.

Simon Sinek 14:35 Right.

Li Karlsen 14:36 And obviously I told them like, "I cannot imagine myself failing. I have to visualize myself actually making it."

Simon Sinek 14:43 Right.

Li Karlsen 14:43 Otherwise, you know, it's the athlete mindset.

Simon Sinek 14:44 It's like a, yeah, every athlete has to imagine getting the gold, right?

Li Karlsen 14:47 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 14:47 Yeah.

Li Karlsen 14:48 Um, so in March this year, we went to Greenland, and I had trained myself to have like an overcapacity, uh, with depth. I could dive to 70 meter plus. I could do more than 200 meters horizontally in the pool. I could hold my breath for around seven minutes, and I could sit in zero degree waters without a wetsuit for more than 10 minutes in several rounds. But when you come to that hole in the ice, that void, I was back as a kid again, you know, looking down in the ice, and I was like, "I have no clue what's down there." And that fear became a curiosity in my search for freedom. And I did the dive, and it was so hard. It was the hardest thing I ever done in my life, and everything that could go wrong went wrong, the, uh, documentary will show. But afterwards, I was at complete peace.

Simon Sinek 15:45 What went wrong? So you go down into the ice.

Li Karlsen 15:48 One of the things that went wrong was that we couldn't get to Greenland because there was iced hurricanes. So instead of getting 12 days, we got two days. So I just got one day of doing like a quick recce, and then the second day when I was doing the actual dive-

Simon Sinek 16:01 Recce meaning reconnaissance.

Li Karlsen 16:02 Yeah, sorry. Yeah, recon. That was the-

Simon Sinek 16:03 You take, take the girl out of the army. You can't take the army out of the girl.

Li Karlsen 16:05 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 16:06 Yeah. [laughs]

Li Karlsen 16:06 Um, so the second day, my, my exit hole, uh, had frozen. It was like half a meter with pack ice. So we had to do another exit hole. But I couldn't see that one because we had so short of time, so I didn't really know where my, my exit was. Um, and the wind was much stronger, and we had to abort the dive, and the hole that I was sitting in, it got frozen the whole time because of the cold, so I had to sit with my fins, you know, and just stare up the, the ice because it was getting frozen.

Simon Sinek 16:40 Just, just waiting, it would just freeze over while sitting there.

Li Karlsen 16:43 Yeah. It was that cold. And the thing with Greenland is that it's pack ice, and it's super thick, and then you have icebergs that's moving around. And since it's saltwater, it's minus two degrees, so it's actually below the normal freezing point for freshwater. And all records so far has, have been done in freshwater because it's the, you know, the s- safer and maybe saner way to do it because the ice is the same. It's like a root.

Simon Sinek 17:16 It's the same, uh, thick-

Li Karlsen 17:17 Same depth

Simon Sinek 17:18 ... same thickness.

Li Karlsen 17:19 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 17:19 From, from one end to the other-

Li Karlsen 17:21 Yeah

Simon Sinek 17:21 ... in freshwater, if it's f- four inches thick, it's gonna stay four inches thick-

Li Karlsen 17:25 Exactly

Simon Sinek 17:25 ... everywhere.

Li Karlsen 17:25 And you can make-

Simon Sinek 17:26 Whereas seawater, you-

Li Karlsen 17:27 It's like a mountain underneath-

Simon Sinek 17:29 Wow

Li Karlsen 17:29 ... and you don't know what's down there, and it's moving. Um, so we couldn't have any safety lines, so I didn't know where I was going, and I couldn't be attached to anything.

Simon Sinek 17:37 So you can't attach a line from one part of the hole to the other where you hold with your hand-

Li Karlsen 17:41 Mm, no

Simon Sinek 17:41 ... so you can go in the right direction?

Li Karlsen 17:42 No, because everything was just moving. So I wasn't going-

Simon Sinek 17:44 It's moving, and it would get stuck in the mountains.

Li Karlsen 17:45 Exactly. And if I was too buoyant-

Simon Sinek 17:47 In the crevices

Li Karlsen 17:47 ... uh, I would get stuck in a, in a crevice. Or if I was going too far below the icebergs, I would start descending, and it was 500 meter deep, uh, 500 meters depth.

Simon Sinek 18:00 And that's because of your wetsuit, right?

Li Karlsen 18:02 Yeah. The, the wetsuit was a seven millimeter wetsuit. So when I go down, it, it decreases-

Simon Sinek 18:07 Right

Li Karlsen 18:07 ... and I lose my buoyancy super fast compared to a three millimeter wetsuit.

Simon Sinek 18:12 So if you're too buoyant, you'll get stuck in the ice and you die.

Li Karlsen 18:14 Yes. Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 18:15 If you go too deep, you lose your buoyancy, and you will sink-

Li Karlsen 18:19 And die

Simon Sinek 18:19 ... and you'll die.

Li Karlsen 18:20 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 18:21 If you go in the slightly wrong vector, you'll die.

Li Karlsen 18:25 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 18:26 If you go in the right vector, but the ice moves-

Li Karlsen 18:29 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 18:29 ... you'll die.

Li Karlsen 18:30 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 18:30 If you run out of air at any point, you'll die.

Li Karlsen 18:34 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 18:35 There's no safety line. So tell me again why you did this?

Li Karlsen 18:39 [laughs] Yeah. I, I wanted to-

Simon Sinek 18:41 And, and, and let's be clear.

Li Karlsen 18:42 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 18:42 There's a reason the Guinness people... The reason this is an unofficial record, spoiler-

Li Karlsen 18:47 Mm

Simon Sinek 18:47 ... you do it.

Li Karlsen 18:48 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 18:49 The reason this is an unofficial record is because the Guinness people will not endorse something this dangerous because they don't want people to keep trying it-

Li Karlsen 18:55 Yeah

Simon Sinek 18:55 ... because someone will get hurt.

Li Karlsen 18:57 Yeah, I don't recommend anyone doing it.

Simon Sinek 18:58 Right. So, so this is- th- th- this, this can never be an official record 'cause n- the Guinness people won't do it, but the fact is you did it.

Li Karlsen 19:06 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 19:06 How, how long was the dive?

Li Karlsen 19:08 Around 75 meters.

Simon Sinek 19:10 75 meters hor- horizontal?

Li Karlsen 19:11 Yeah, yeah, under two icebergs in a tunnel.

Simon Sinek 19:15 And a tunnel?

Li Karlsen 19:16 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 19:19 How long did it take to get from one end to the other?

Li Karlsen 19:21 Uh, around one and a half minutes.

Simon Sinek 19:23 Did you panic?

Li Karlsen 19:25 No. I don't really remember the dive. Um, I don't remember anything. It was, like, the strongest flow state I've ever had in my life. But as soon as I surfaced and I took my first breath-

Simon Sinek 19:36 Uh-huh

Li Karlsen 19:36 ... everything just came over me, like, holy shit, what did I just do? Because I was convinced that I wasn't able to do it because of the conditions. I knew that I was super strong and I got-

Simon Sinek 19:48 You knew you could physically do it.

Li Karlsen 19:49 E- exactly, but-

Simon Sinek 19:50 But you didn't know if the conditions were right, yeah

Li Karlsen 19:51 ... but the conditions were just, like, crazy. So what I did was that I aimed for my safety diver that I knew was, like, 10 or 15 meters away from the hole, and she pointed vigorously up towards the hole where we attached the line with, um, a strobe-

Simon Sinek 20:08 Mm-hmm

Li Karlsen 20:08 ... that was blinking. And in the last second before I, like, I was going to her to, to get the regulator, and I was like, "I'm gonna pass out." I'm like, "I'm too drained." Then I saw the strobe and I was like, "Fuck it. I'll just go for it." And-

Simon Sinek 20:21 So you were actually, actually in and out of air. You were actually looking at her saying, "I've- I haven't... I'm gonna fail. I'm just gonna go take a breath of air from the-

Li Karlsen 20:29 Yeah

Simon Sinek 20:29 ... from the diver."

Li Karlsen 20:30 In, in my head. I didn't... You can't see it in, in the film-

Simon Sinek 20:33 Right

Li Karlsen 20:33 ... like, when they're filming. Uh, but in my head, I was like, "Okay, I'm, I'm going to her." But then I saw the hole and her hand, and I was like, "Ta-da. [laughs] There it is."

Simon Sinek 20:43 So it's like, it's like you think you haven't gotten to the finish line, and then you realize it's just around the corner.

Li Karlsen 20:47 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 20:49 Can't wait to see this film.

Simon Sinek 20:51 So you, you went into this because you were afraid of the dark ocean. You were afraid of the depths of the ocean, and you did this to face your fears.

Li Karlsen 20:58 Exactly, yeah.

Simon Sinek 21:00 There are other ways to face fears. Is it- was it specifically a fear of the ocean?

Li Karlsen 21:05 I perceived the, the darkness and the depth as a scary void.

Simon Sinek 21:11 Hmm.

Li Karlsen 21:12 So I was also afraid of heights. Like, I didn't wanna be in, you know, very deep waters where I couldn't see my, my feet.

Simon Sinek 21:18 Mm-hmm.

Li Karlsen 21:19 Or, sorry, my feet, my bo- the bottom. [laughs] My feet on the bottom maybe.

Simon Sinek 21:23 So and so, and so now how has your life changed? How... You know, you had this fear. You talk, um... The way you... Th- one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the podcast is you don't talk about it like a sport. You talk about it like a yoga practice. You talk about it like a meditation practice when you talk about basically which is an athletic event. Um, you don't talk about records and depths. You talk about mind and release. You talk about calm. I'm curious how you have changed personally. Like, what kind of person was Li before you started freediving, and what kind of person is Li now?

Li Karlsen 22:00 I see freediving as self-medication. Like, training for me has always been self-medication, and then I found this amazing medicine that works for my life in, in general, both on a physical, emotional, and a mental level. So the, the Li that started freediving 2018, six years ago, I was still in the army then. I was working at the headquarters. I was very much into my career. I was, like, full on. Everything was, you know, work, and I didn't have any real place to, to ventilate. And then I found this fear of mine that I explored, and I wouldn't say I became obsessed with it, but it was-- it became a passion really, really fast. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 22:42 And I think a pa- something that becomes a passion really, really fast is what we like to call an obsession. [laughs]

Li Karlsen 22:48 [laughs] You could say that. Well, it's still where all of my money is going-

Simon Sinek 22:53 [laughs]

Li Karlsen 22:53 ... for fins and wetsuits and travel, so yeah, maybe it's an obse- obsession.

Simon Sinek 22:57 So what kind of person were you before you started freediving? Were you anxious? Were you, like... Y- I know you were ambitious. Like, were you, were you sort of, you know, high- high-strung? Like, what kind of person were you before? I'm so curious about the transition.

Li Karlsen 23:11 I was definitely anxious, and I know, uh, now from my therapist, I had layers of PTSD [laughs] from, uh, I mean, both from the military and, uh, life in, in general, and that's something that I had to work with in order to, to dive deeper. So in the beginning, I was high-performing in, in depth really, really fast, but then I reached a certain level or depth where it was like, you know, an invisible wall. Like, I, I couldn't get deeper.

Simon Sinek 23:40 What depth?

Li Karlsen 23:42 Uh, I got to around, uh, 60 meters.

Simon Sinek 23:44 And you couldn't go past 60 meters?

Li Karlsen 23:46 No, it was like a wall.

Simon Sinek 23:46 You, you kept running... You ran out of air every time.

Li Karlsen 23:49 Mentally, it was like I, I, I couldn't.

Simon Sinek 23:51 Yeah.

Li Karlsen 23:52 I, I didn't even... I stopped wearing my dive computer that tells me the depth, uh, and it was consistently at, at 60 meters. I mean, that's also physical bec- 'cause it takes a lot of time to get adapted to the depth. Basically, every cell of your body has to be adapted with- within the mammalian dive response that we have to be able to handle this pressure. But it was definitely not mental, but emotional. So I got to a point where I, I felt like I couldn't breathe when I was at surface because I had so much pressure in my chest from things that I didn't deal with in life. So that's when I had to take, you know, not one step back, but 100 steps back, and you start to work with it from within. And as I did that, the, the emotional and the mental perspective of getting different tools, it didn't just improve my diving, but it also made me what I would say a better human being.

Simon Sinek 24:45 What, what, what did you do to treat yourself to go beyond the 60 meters?

Li Karlsen 24:53 The, the first thing I did was to start to be aware of my inner being, the awareness of my, my breath. To be able to hold your breath, you have to be able to breathe properly, and the breathing, I mean, it doesn't control everything we do, but you can basically tell your brain and your whole system to be afraid by breathing in a stressful way, although there's no stress. And that's where we tend to get stuck today in society because we're not taught how to breathe for life. You're taught how to breathe for, for diving and breath holding, and you're taught how to breathe as a soldier, like when you're shooting to get the right shooting position. But a lot of people, including myself, I was creating unnecessary stress by breathing the wrong way, where I already had a lot of stress in my life.

Simon Sinek 25:42 So what is breathing the wrong way? So o- obviously breathing is autonomic. I don't think about it. My body breathes because it needs to breathe to survive. So if, if it's automatic and autonomic, like, how am I breathing the wrong way? How am I-- why is my breath causing me stress and yours no longer does? Like, what, what... Start with why is my breath causing me stress?

Li Karlsen 26:03 Yeah, I mean, there's a-- you can breathe

Li Karlsen 26:05 to be alive, and you can breathe to be living, right? And what happens with, uh, the, the stressful breathing, that's completely natural if you're being chased by a lion, uh, which we're usually are not in today, right? [laughs] But it's a very shallow mouth breathing, uh, and it goes to our chest, uh, and it activates the, the sympathetic nerve endings in the upper part of our lungs. Parasympathetic breathing or the state is basically the opposite. So you take a breath with your, preferably your nose by using your diaphragm, the, the breathing muscle, and some call it, uh, belly breathing.

Simon Sinek 26:44 Mm-hmm.

Li Karlsen 26:44 But it's basically not unaw- aware breathing, but you exhale longer than you inhale, and that's usually the opposite of what we do today. We're very good at [inhales] inhaling, but stress is basically accumulated carbon dioxide. So the breathing that we use in freediving is a very aware state of how much carbon dioxide we have in our body.

Simon Sinek 27:08 So give me an example of this shallow inhale with a long exhale.

Li Karlsen 27:12 Yeah, sure. I mean, start by relaxing your shoulders and then create an awareness-

Simon Sinek 27:16 Oh, that's gonna take about an hour.

Li Karlsen 27:17 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 27:18 [laughs]

Li Karlsen 27:19 And then, uh, inhale slightly with your nose, just like a small puff, and then you can exhale with your nose or your mouth. And then you take a half an inhale too, and then [exhales] . So super relaxed.

Simon Sinek 27:36 So I'm doing this short inhale through my nose-

Li Karlsen 27:39 Yeah

Simon Sinek 27:39 ... and then a long exhale, [exhales] and I'm pushing the breath in, not into my chest, but into my belly.

Li Karlsen 27:45 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 27:45 So I want my belly to expand [inhales] but I want my-

Li Karlsen 27:48 Preferably your rib cage. Like, if you put two fingers on the lowest part of your rib, rib cage-

Simon Sinek 27:53 Which I'm doing, yeah

Li Karlsen 27:54 ... yeah. You, you should feel that when you inhale, they go down and outwards a little bit.

Simon Sinek 28:02 Oh, wow.

Li Karlsen 28:02 Be- because we can do belly breathing by just using our abdominal muscles.

Simon Sinek 28:07 Right, which is what I learned.

Li Karlsen 28:10 Yeah. So that's, that's one way. But if you have the rib cage moving, then you know that you're using the diaphragm.

Simon Sinek 28:15 Diaphragm. Interesting, interesting. Okay. So the short inhale, long exhale. [exhales]

Li Karlsen 28:19 Yeah. And what-

Simon Sinek 28:20 Do I, do I push the air out or let the air fall out?

Li Karlsen 28:22 Pa- passive exhale. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 28:23 So let it fall out. So-

Li Karlsen 28:24 As long as it, uh, it's a little bit longer than the inhale. And that's basically the key. Like, no matter what state you're in, you don't have to be diving or shooting for that matter. As long as you take a longer exhale than an inhale, that's an aware breathing that will take you into a parasympathetic and relaxing state.

Simon Sinek 28:42 So do you use this just in your day-to-day when you have stress?

Li Karlsen 28:45 Yeah, all the time. Like, I don't sit in, you know, in silky pants in a yogi position. I, I do it in, in, um, at the bus station or when I'm walking or y- when I'm talking, just like, "Where's my shoulders? Okay, they're up, relaxed. How am I breathing?" And then inhale with the nose, because the thing with nostril breathing, now it's getting a little bit nitty-gritty here [laughs] -

Simon Sinek 29:09 [laughs]

Li Karlsen 29:09 ... you have nitric oxide in your sinuses. So when we inhale nitric oxide, like through the sinuses, uh, they expand the blood vessels, so the, the gas exchange between oxygen and carbon dioxide becomes more efficient, and it also dilates your vessels.

Simon Sinek 29:27 So put in layman's terms-

Li Karlsen 29:28 So if you breathe with your nose-

Simon Sinek 29:29 ... you breathe b- better, better to breathe through your nose than your mouth.

Li Karlsen 29:32 In general, yes, especially if you're talking a lot. Let's say that you're a speaker. Let's say that you do TED Talks-

Simon Sinek 29:37 Hypothetic- hypothetic- hypothetically

Li Karlsen 29:38 ... hypothetically. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 29:39 Yeah.

Li Karlsen 29:39 It's really good then to compensate with nostril breathing. You don't have to, you kn- you know, not talk or not breathe with your mouth. But also when-

Simon Sinek 29:48 Though some people- [laughs]

Li Karlsen 29:49 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 29:49 ... might suggest that as a good, as a good strategy.

Li Karlsen 29:54 So, so nostril breathing with your diaphragm, take longer exhales than, than inhales. That's like breathing for life in general, I would say.

Simon Sinek 30:02 Okay. So let's pick up where we left off before. I asked you what Li was before you started freediving and who Li is now. So you were somebody who carried a lot of stress. You had anxiety and as you learned, layers of PTSD, both from combat, the army, and other things in life. Now that you're a champion freediver, but more important, you've learned how to breathe and manage- Panic and stress, because that's what going to depths is, right?

Li Karlsen 30:34 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 30:34 It's managing panic-

Li Karlsen 30:35 Exactly

Simon Sinek 30:35 ... and stress. Who are you now? What, what kind of person are you now that's different than you were before?

Li Karlsen 30:44 Uh, I would say I'm much more in touch with little Li, the playful part, because the adult Li that was, had completely taken over before, because she thought she had to, uh, was very stressed and anxious, and was taking on a huge responsibility and being worried about things that she couldn't control. And I think a part of letting your inner child not take lead, but flow in life, enables you to deal with things in a more playful and, and fun and harmonic and peaceful way.

Simon Sinek 31:20 If I met you before-

Li Karlsen 31:21 Yeah

Simon Sinek 31:22 ... I'd say, "What kind of person are you?" What would you have said?

Li Karlsen 31:26 Before-

Simon Sinek 31:27 Yeah

Li Karlsen 31:27 ... um, I was very much Captain Li. I was very rigid. It was my way or the highway. I was extremely focused, ambitious. I'm still ambitious, but I'm much more relaxed in letting things be as they are, and not worrying so much. There's very few things that you can control in life, whereas breathing, once again, is one of the f- few things.

Simon Sinek 31:53 This reminds me of Viktor Frankl.

Li Karlsen 31:55 Mm.

Simon Sinek 31:55 You know Viktor Frankl, who wrote Man's Search for Meaning?

Li Karlsen 31:57 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 31:57 And he, when he went to the, the concentration camp-

Li Karlsen 32:01 Mm

Simon Sinek 32:01 ... in the Second World War, he was struck by how all of these people, the prisoners, were all suffering the same experience. But he remarked that some had the will to live and some didn't.

Li Karlsen 32:14 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 32:15 And that's what he realized, was we cannot control the world around us, but we c- control our reaction to the world.

Li Karlsen 32:22 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 32:22 And you're taking that a step further, which is we cannot control the world around us, but the one thing that we can control is our breath.

Li Karlsen 32:28 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 32:29 Because it's... I think it's very hard when, even when I talk about Viktor Frankl to people, you know, I say, "All you can contr- you know, we can control our reaction. We can control our mindset." And I think that, um, though that's true, I think it's much easier in concept than it is in practice. You know, change, j- when you're in a bad mood and somebody says, "Come on, cheer up"-

Li Karlsen 32:47 Mm

Simon Sinek 32:47 ... like, that's changing your mindset.

Li Karlsen 32:48 [laughs] That's helpful.

Simon Sinek 32:49 And, like, all you wanna do is punch them in the face when somebody says-

Li Karlsen 32:52 Yeah

Simon Sinek 32:52 ... "Buck up," you know, when you're in a, in a bad mood. I think it's very hard to just change your mindset, you know? What you're saying is control your breath, which is something I can actually do-

Li Karlsen 33:03 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 33:03 ... rather than just think about.

Li Karlsen 33:05 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 33:05 And so it's basically the same idea. It's the same concept. It's the same philosophy, except it's m- much easier to practice controlling my breath. Like, even just now what you've taught me, which is take a short breath in through my nose, and then some sort of long exhale, like, I can do that.

Li Karlsen 33:20 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 33:21 Or when I'm... And as you said, I don't have to, like, go take a yoga class to relax after a stressful day. I can do it in the meeting. I can do it in the conversation.

Li Karlsen 33:28 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 33:28 I can just start [inhales] .

Li Karlsen 33:30 Yeah, and it, I mean, even if it's a small sense of control, it's a mentally huge control, because you are controlling yourself and your inner environment. And the external environment, it could be a war zone, and that's okay, because you can't take responsibility for it, and usually you can't do anything about it. It is what it is. It, it sounds very stoic and almost, like, apathetic, but in a way, it's the most kind thing you can also do to yourself, because your own responsibility is taking care of yourself, and therefore being kind to yourself, you can illuminate kindness.

Simon Sinek 34:12 The big lesson that I'm learning here that is pretty profound, which is I always thought free diving which is, was about holding your breath. I always thought free diving was how do you learn, how do you practice breathing so that you can maximize oxygen in your lungs? And I'm sure that's a part of it as well, but what I'm learning from you is it's actually less about the breathing to survive, the breathing not to pass out, but it's really a stress management, that you're breathing for stress management. Because if you s- if you suffer stress and freak out when you're at depth, you're probably gonna die.

Li Karlsen 34:47 Yeah, it's a direct feedback. You will die.

Simon Sinek 34:50 I mean, you'll actually die. Like, if you panic-

Li Karlsen 34:52 Yeah, yeah

Simon Sinek 34:52 ... at 80 meters, at 70 meters, even at 60 meters.

Li Karlsen 34:54 No, so not theoretically. You will, you will die, yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 34:57 So, so this is the amazing thing. It's not about how much, how you hold your breath so you don't die. It's how you manage the panic, how you manage the stress so you don't die. And obviously, if you can do that in an environment where you physically couldn't breathe, you know, underwater-

Li Karlsen 35:11 Mm

Simon Sinek 35:11 ... and at pressure, then the same lessons used above the water have the same impact, which is stress management. And so, you know, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you was not so that we can teach people how to go free diving, but how we can learn some of your b- stress management techniques from breathing. Well, this is what I'm learning now, that we can manage our s- our stress. I mean, I wanted to bring you on just 'cause I think what you do is madness, but what I'm learning is it's the furthest thing from madness. It's probably the most important thing we can all learn to do, which is to breathe. And you said it, there's breathing for living, and there's breathing for life.

Li Karlsen 35:49 Yeah, exactly. And even the, the philosophical part of you can't really inhale more oxygen. You can't increase the oxygen saturation in your blood, because unless you've been holding your breath for three minutes or more, which you haven't, what I can see, your oxygen saturation is between 95 and 98%. So when we say that, as you said before, taking a big breath, it's all about exhaling the carbon dioxide.

Simon Sinek 36:19 Mm.

Li Karlsen 36:19 And if you apply that in life, like, you don't usually have to take on more things. You have to deload. You have to let go of things to feel the stress relief, and that's when you can move on, and that's when you can thrive. Because if you don't do that, you're probably fighting unnecessary battles Inside cr- creating stress, choosing stress instead of choosing freedom and controlling what you can control to be able to thrive where you actually need it

Simon Sinek 36:49 Now, one of the things that I know that you do to practice nostril breathing, which is a more efficient form of breathing as I'm learning from you, is that you tape your mouth shut at night [laughs]

Li Karlsen 36:58 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 36:59 ... when you sleep. Is that correct?

Li Karlsen 37:00 Yes. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 37:02 [laughs] And that way you guarantee that while you're sleeping, you're only breathing through your nose to help br- build lung capacity, and also just to practice breathing through your nose normally, right? You're training your body.

Li Karlsen 37:15 Yeah, and I didn't make this up just to be like, you know-

Simon Sinek 37:18 [laughs]

Li Karlsen 37:18 ... it's not something that I girl guessed. I, I read this beautiful book called, uh, Breathe by James Nestor, and he recommended it, and for me it works really, really well. I would say that I'm not... I don't snore, what I know. Uh, but one part of humans is that our breathing evolution is actually going the wrong way because we are mouth breathing the whole time, and we're not taught how to breathe for, for anything unless you're a free diver. So it's not only the nitric oxide in your sinuses and stuff, but also for us Swedes in the winters, if you breathe through your nose, the air has a longer time to warm up, so it's easier for your, uh, body to deal with the bacteria that actually goes through your nose hair, and then it gets heated up before it hits your lungs.

Simon Sinek 38:07 'Cause, uh, it's true, we have cilia in our nose to clean air. That's what it does.

Li Karlsen 38:10 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 38:10 In our mouth we don't clean the air.

Li Karlsen 38:12 No.

Simon Sinek 38:12 And I'd also, uh, we also, I know that we, when we're sleeping, when we breathe through our mouth, we let out a lot of moisture from breathing, and so we dehydrate ourselves. You can wake up dehydrated.

Li Karlsen 38:22 Exactly, exactly.

Simon Sinek 38:23 Um, uh, and breathing through your nose I think mitigates that. So you... And, and let's just be clear, it's not a piece of duct tape here. It's a tiny piece of medical tape, 'cause I know you, you showed me this.

Li Karlsen 38:33 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 38:33 It's a tiny piece of medical tape that you stick on your hand first to get rid of some of the sticky.

Li Karlsen 38:37 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 38:38 So in case you do panic at night-

Li Karlsen 38:39 [laughs] Yeah

Simon Sinek 38:39 ... you don't die.

Li Karlsen 38:40 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 38:40 And then after you rip it off your hand, you just stick a little piece over your top lip and bottom lip-

Li Karlsen 38:45 Exactly

Simon Sinek 38:46 ... vertically.

Li Karlsen 38:47 Have you tried it yet?

Simon Sinek 38:47 I have.

Li Karlsen 38:48 Yeah?

Simon Sinek 38:48 I have. When you... I tried it for a while, actually. I was doing it every night for a while. The thing that I found astonishing when- about it was, especially as mouth breathers, you know, your nose gets clogged up.

Li Karlsen 39:00 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 39:01 And if I tried to breathe through my nose, I couldn't.

Li Karlsen 39:04 Mm.

Simon Sinek 39:04 You know, or maybe only one nostril. And I remember, [clears throat] I remember that's how I was going to bed, and I was putting the tape on. I'm like, "I'm gonna die because-

Li Karlsen 39:12 Mm

Simon Sinek 39:12 ... I can't even breathe through my nose." And within seconds my nose cleared up and I was breathing.

Li Karlsen 39:20 You wanna know why?

Simon Sinek 39:21 Yeah.

Li Karlsen 39:21 Because the, the carbon dioxide that you then accumulate by taking a little bit longer exhale that we usually get when we breathe through the nose, because it takes a longer time to exhale through the nose, it's actually not vaporizing the mucus, but it, uh, loosens it so it's easier for the body to get rid of.

Simon Sinek 39:40 Wow. So-

Li Karlsen 39:40 So in theory, I'm not saying anyone should try this, but if you actually have a little bit of clogged sinuses, you could try to hold your breath and- or just breathe through your nose and, uh, the mucus will, um-

Simon Sinek 39:51 Loosen up

Li Karlsen 39:52 ... loosen up. Exactly.

Simon Sinek 39:53 This is amazing. Okay, let's keep going with this. So y- even when you exercise, and I know you do vigorous exercise, you'll do cardio or something, and you don't breathe through your mouth.

Li Karlsen 40:03 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 40:03 You have learned to only breathe through your nose when you exercise. How do you get enough lu- oxygen in your lungs? I mean, like, if you're doing vigorous cardio, how do you get enough oxygen in your lungs just through your nose? I don't think I could, or at least I couldn't get the air out. I might be able to get it in, but out I need to, like, exhale hard, but you're teaching me to exhale longer, and when I exercise, I exhale quicker.

Li Karlsen 40:25 Yeah, I mean, it's a transition period. Um, so what I had started doing, uh, when I was walking and, and doing, um, like running, I started using nostril breathing as much as possible, specifically when I was, uh, exhaling, and it took me a, a good year before I was comfortable with doing that. And don't get me wrong, like, if I do vigorous, like, high intensity workouts, I, I do have to exhale through my mouth now and then. But for me, lowering the pace a little bit and then breathing, uh, the right way by exhaling longer and let- letting my body to learn how to work with the carbon dioxide, it, it takes a while, but it's possible. And it is harder because the carbon dioxide in itself is creating a, a stress. It's the fight and flight reflex that we have in our brain. But also for me, specifically in freediving, the thing that I train the most is my body's capacity to handle the huge amount of carbon dioxide, because when we hold our breath, it's not the decrease of oxygen that freaks us, freaks us out. That's not what's getting at us the urge to breathe. It's the increase of carbon dioxide. So the better my muscle cells and my whole system gets at being able to buffer carbon dioxide and acid, the better I am in the pool and at depth.

Simon Sinek 41:53 This is a really interesting insight here, especially when dealing with panic and stress and anxiety, which is we think we need to get air in. We think we need to get oxygen in. I just need to take a deep breath. We often say that.

Li Karlsen 42:03 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 42:04 Oh, I just need to take a deep breath. And what you're saying is the total opposite, which is the panic and the anxiety and the stress doesn't come from our desire to get oxygen in, it comes from the need to get carbon dioxide out.

Li Karlsen 42:13 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 42:14 And so really what I need to do when I have stress is not the inhale, it's the exhale.

Li Karlsen 42:19 The long exhale. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 42:20 Carbon dioxide.

Li Karlsen 42:21 And thereby the switch from the sympathetic to the, the parasympathetic, from the stressed to the relaxed, is the long exhales.

Simon Sinek 42:28 First of all, f- what's the difference between the sympathetic and parasympathetic? You've mentioned it a few times.

Li Karlsen 42:33 Yeah, sympathetic is the, in the auto- auton- autonomic nervous system, you have the sympathetic drive, not in sympathetic as in being kind-

Simon Sinek 42:41 Right, right. So this is everything that happens automatically

Li Karlsen 42:43 ... stress. Yeah, exactly. We, we can't control it.

Simon Sinek 42:45 Breathing, heartbeat, all that stuff.

Li Karlsen 42:47 Exact- digestion.

Simon Sinek 42:48 Digestion, blood flow.

Li Karlsen 42:49 Uh, and the parasympathetic is the recovering state, and you can't affect the autonomic nervous system because it's autonomic. But we can control our breathing, which stimulates the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system. So our brain can tell us to be afraid, and we start breathing in a stressful way, but we can also tell our brain that we are afraid by breathing in a stressful way.

Simon Sinek 43:17 Oh, okay. So-

Li Karlsen 43:19 So it's a circuit.

Simon Sinek 43:20 Ah, okay. So this is... L- let me, let me repeat this 'cause this is very, this is important, right? If there is a genuine reason to panic, like there's a lion chasing you, there's a burglar, you hear a bump in the night, you're afraid you're gonna get fired from your job, your, your, your body will react in fight or flight. You'll start breathing shallow and getting ready to, to run.

Li Karlsen 43:42 Yeah, exactly.

Simon Sinek 43:43 Right? But what you're saying is, um, we can also create stress where there may n- there may not be any, or we may be overreacting to the inputs that we see. Like, we had a fight with somebody and/or maybe we had a, did something wrong at work. I mean, let's take, let's stick with that analogy. Um, and we start fearing that we're gonna get fired, but that's not necessarily because we are, because it's real panic. It's because [inhales] we start breathing shallow, and our body interprets the shallow breathing as-

Li Karlsen 44:14 That there's something

Simon Sinek 44:14 ... "You better start panicking," in your mind.

Li Karlsen 44:16 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 44:16 It's connecting the physiological-

Li Karlsen 44:18 Yeah

Simon Sinek 44:18 ... with the mental.

Li Karlsen 44:19 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 44:19 And so if we learn to breathe, what we are actually doing is allowing the mind to say, "Oh, there's nothing to panic about."

Li Karlsen 44:27 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 44:27 Wow, wow, wow, wow.

Li Karlsen 44:28 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 44:29 Okay.

Li Karlsen 44:30 So you-

Simon Sinek 44:31 Do you know why I like having this conversation with you? Is because you have to learn to breathe and understand all of these, uh, physiological and nervous system things based on the actual science, 'cause otherwise you'll die.

Li Karlsen 44:46 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 44:46 I mean, that- that's, that's the stakes here, right?

Li Karlsen 44:49 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 44:49 Whereas I think a lot of the, uh, well-intentioned, but sort of the space of meditation and yoga can, like, though there is science and science-ish around it, some of it's flat out wrong because there's no stakes. [laughs]

Li Karlsen 45:07 Uh, y- yoga and meditation is, uh, they're fantastic tools. But just as you said, you won't die from meditating or doing yoga wrong, but from free diving you will. But it's not, you know, something that we strive for, and even if it's a extreme sport, it doesn't mean that we are taking extreme risks.

Simon Sinek 45:27 And what you have learned to do to do this is basically you've learned to scientifically meditate.

Li Karlsen 45:35 You could put it that way.

Simon Sinek 45:36 That's what you do. I mean, you, what you do, I would ex... I, I, I think another way to describe your extreme sport is as extreme meditation. You go into a deep, deep meditative state where you learn to get the o- the carbon dioxide out of your body, how to manage panic so you don't panic when you're 80 meters below-

Li Karlsen 45:56 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 45:56 ... the surface of the ocean, 240 feet below the ocean's surface.

Li Karlsen 46:01 Yeah. Solitude. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 46:03 And no panic. The important thing is-

Li Karlsen 46:05 Yeah

Simon Sinek 46:05 ... it's less the solitude and the lack of panic.

Li Karlsen 46:07 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 46:07 The peace that you feel comes from the lack of panic. And I know when I have meditated, there is a calm and a lack of panic, and, like, all the problems of my day seem like they can go away. What you're teaching me is a better way to meditate because, as you said, you've learned to meditate because there are stakes.

Li Karlsen 46:22 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 46:22 And I, I, I love what you said, you know, if you get meditation or yoga wrong, [laughs] you won't die.

Li Karlsen 46:27 [laughs] Hopefully.

Simon Sinek 46:27 But if you get your meditation wrong, you will die. Thanks so much for coming on.

Li Karlsen 46:33 Thank you, Simon.

Simon Sinek 46:34 I've learned so much. I'm gonna do this breathing thing. I, I'm particularly fascinated by how to manage the stress in real time-

Li Karlsen 46:40 Yeah

Simon Sinek 46:41 ... and not having to do, go to a yoga class to manage the stress from the week before, or do a meditation in the morning to manage the stress the day of, but rather to, to be able to manage stress and conflict in the moment, whether it's in my mind or in real life.

Li Karlsen 46:56 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 46:56 Huge.

Li Karlsen 46:57 Do it when you can, and don't punish yourself, not for being perfect. Just, you know, include as many good things as you can when you can.

Simon Sinek 47:06 Li, always an inspiration. Thank you so much.

Li Karlsen 47:08 Thank you, Simon. You too. [upbeat music]

Simon Sinek 47:11 If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsinek.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.