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How to Stop Being Socially Awkward (According to Science) | Behavioral Scientist Vanessa Van Edwards

Maybe this sounds familiar: you leave a party and spend the rest of the night convinced everyone was upset with you. Or you replay something you said in a meeting for days and second-guess every last word. Vanessa Van Edwards has been there. As a self-proclaimed "recovering awkward person," she’s spent two decades decoding the hidden dynamics of human interaction to make those skills teachable for introverts and extroverts alike. Vanessa is a behavioral researcher, bestselling author, and founder of Science of People. In her book, _Conversation: How to Be Instantly Likeable in Any Interaction,_ she makes the case that social skills aren't a personality type, they're learnable. And she believes we are living in the most critical moment in history to_ start_ learning them. In this episode you'll learn: ➡️ Why "just be yourself" is unhelpful advice ➡️ The important everyday interactions technology + AI replaced ➡️ Where to stand at a party so someone always talks to you ➡️ How to have better conversations (+ why you already have the skills) ➡️ What the real antidote to awkwardness is ➡️ How to practice micro-social skills without turning people off ➡️ How soft skills drive major career inflection points ➡️ The concept of social fitness + the “nutrition” of your relationships In this conversation, Vanessa lays out how even the most socially anxious among us can build real connections and become more likable… even in a world that has quietly removed all the places we used to accidentally get good at being human. And the secret isn't confidence. It's something far more generous. This… is _A Bit of Optimism._ + + + Watch _A Bit of Optimism_ on Spotify, and Spotify Premium users can enjoy the show ad-free. To pre-order Vanessa’s new book, _Conversation: How to Be Instantly Likeable in Any Interaction,_ head to: https://www.scienceofpeople.com/conversation/ Want to learn more people skills from Vanessa? Check out The Science of People: https://www.scienceofpeople.com/ + + + Chapters 00:00:00 Social Skills in the Digital Age Crisis 00:01:47 Vanessa's Journey: The Accidental Social Skills Expert 00:05:45 Mistakes Everyone Makes Learning to Improve Social Skills 00:08:09 Where Did Our Places to Practice Being Human Go? 00:11:21 Where to Stand at a Party When You Don't Know Anyone 00:14:17 The Most Critical Time to Learn Social Skills 00:16:48 Social Friction at Work: Hidden Productivity Killer 00:18:58 The Discomfort With Being Uncomfortable 00:21:33 The Business Card Trick: Creating Conditions vs. Being Charming 00:36:07 The Ambivert Reality: Social Fitness and Friendship Nutrition 00:42:20 Micro-Social Skills: Finding the Parts of Yourself You Like 00:46:56 The Man Who Stayed: How Love Taught Self-Love 00:49:51 The Antidote to Awkwardness Is Helping Someone Else 00:58:32 Why You Have to Push Your Boundaries 00:06:22 Start With What You're Already Good At + + + Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including _Start With Why,_ _Leaders Eat Last,_ _Together is Better,_ and _The Infinite Game._ + + + Website:http://simonsinek.com/ Leaderful: https://simonsinek.com/leaderful Podcast:http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram:https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin:https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter:https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek

Simon SinekhostVanessa Van Edwardsguest
May 19, 202659mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:47

    Social Skills in the Digital Age Crisis

    1. SS

      We don't call anybody up and ask for help.

    2. VE

      Mm-mm.

    3. SS

      You don't go to your neighbor. You don't, you know, borrow some sugar anymore.

    4. VE

      Right. Mm-hmm.

    5. SS

      We're having social struggles, social awkwardness more than we used to because there aren't the natural interactions that are forcing us to learn them.

    6. VE

      Yes. I think we are in the most critical time, that if we don't learn it on purpose, we never will.

    7. SS

      That's a scary thought.

    8. VE

      It's terrifying.

    9. SS

      We are obsessed with finding the right words, saying just the right thing so we can get the job, get the girl, make a good impression. Sometimes we labor over our texts. Some of us can even stress for days, worried if we said the right thing or not. And now with AI, we're all learning to find just the perfect words exactly when we need them. But there's a problem. Making human connections takes more than words. It also includes things like body language, non-verbal communication. And because we communicate digitally so often, we aren't practicing those skills like we used to. We aren't practicing being human. That's why I invited Vanessa Van Edwards onto the show. She's a self-described recovering awkward person who spent 20 years studying the science of body language and what actually makes people click. In her book, Conversation: How to Be Instantly Likable in Any Interaction, she makes the case that we can still learn the social skills we need at any age. Vanessa has discovered that all that stress and inside talk that goes on when we're struggling, it all goes away the second we decide to be more generous. If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe for more. This is A Bit of Optimism.

  2. 1:47 – 5:45

    Vanessa's Journey: The Accidental Social Skills Expert

    1. SS

      I always love people's journeys, how they get started into what they do.

    2. VE

      Yeah.

    3. SS

      And you have, I mean, I know you call yourself a recovering awkward person. I think it reveals a lot about our, us, the careers that we find ourselves on.

    4. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SS

      How did you get into what you do now?

    6. VE

      Mm-hmm. By accident.

    7. SS

      Which always the best stories.

    8. VE

      Always. Always. So in 2007, this, this new website called YouTube had started, and I was like, "You know, this is kind of fun." And b- back then, YouTube was a crazy place. YouTube was people unboxing things and, and makeup.

    9. SS

      And s- and scratching on microphones.

    10. VE

      Yeah. [laughs]

    11. SS

      [laughs]

    12. VE

      Exactly. I don't even know if that existed then. I don't even know if that existed then.

    13. SS

      That came later.

    14. VE

      And I was like, "You know, maybe I could post on this thing called YouTube, and I could share..." I was very, very awkward, and at the time, I was reading a lot of research on interpersonal intelligence, social skills, body language, and I was like, "Why is no one talking about this research?" So I would open up my, my, my phone, you know, and I would start recording tips for other awkward people. In my mind, there were maybe 15 of us. You know, I was like, "This is for the other 15 awkward people who have just finished college and are trying to interview and were afraid of everyone."

    15. SS

      Hmm.

    16. VE

      I also, my awkwardness is I think everyone's angry at me all the time. That's a, a brand of awkwardness that I have.

    17. SS

      [laughs]

    18. VE

      Like, I'm so happy you're smiling 'cause otherwise I'd think you were angry at me.

    19. SS

      Not angry.

    20. VE

      Okay, great.

    21. SS

      Not angry.

    22. VE

      So, um, I actually learned in the research that a certain kind of n- neuroticism misinterprets neutral faces as negative, and so I would share things like that. "Hey, if you think everyone's angry at you, you might be misinterpreting." I wanted to say, "This is what an angry face looks like." And those little tips were how I got through the day, how I stopped social overthinking. Then all my videos started getting 100 views, 200 views, 1,000 views. And then what happened was I started to read research and then do experiments on myself. So I would say, "Hey, this research experiment said that men love the smell of food on a woman. Great. Let's try it." So I got popcorn bags, and I rubbed them on my forearms, and I'd go to a party, and I'd see if men said I smelled good, right? The weirdest experiments ever. I would just try them, and that worked, by the way. That really worked.

    23. SS

      Which, which, which food did men respond best to?

    24. VE

      Pop-

    25. SS

      Popcorn?

    26. VE

      Popcorn bag.

    27. SS

      Not barbecue?

    28. VE

      Nope. No, I didn't try that one.

    29. SS

      [laughs]

    30. VE

      Ribs. I was just like, I, like, put a rib in my purse. That might've worked.

  3. 5:45 – 6:22

    Mistakes Everyone Makes Learning to Improve Social Skills

    1. VE

      Yeah. Okay, so here's the mistake that people make with this, is they start with the skill or the person they're most nervous with.So oftentimes they've read How to Win Friends and Influence People, and they're like, "Okay, I'm gonna go into my boss's office." Wrong. We've already made a mistake. Why would you start a brand-new social skill you're just trying for the first time with the person who makes you the most nervous? No. So wrong person first. Oh, and I'm gonna go in, and I'm gonna say their name a bunch. So then they're like, "Good morning, Simon. Simon, how did you like the task last week, Simon? Simon, wasn't it great?" And it's like, and then you get the negative feedback. The boss is like, "What is going on? Why are you using my name so much?" And they're like, "I'm never doing anything again."

    2. SS

      Right.

    3. VE

      So what I say is,

  4. 6:22 – 8:09

    Start With What You're Already Good At

    1. VE

      "No, we're gonna start really small." I like micro-social skills.

    2. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. VE

      Micro-social skills are the social skills that you're already good at, that you didn't actually realize was a skill that you were naturally good at. So for example, telling a story is a micro-social skill, and there are some awkward people who are exceptional at telling very good real stories, embarrassing moments, case studies with a client. So I would say, "Okay, let's start with the micro-skill that you're very good at." That could be explaining something technical. That could be a story. That could be even quiet power, like listening really, really well. That could be a non-verbal thing. That could be you're really, really warm non-verbally. You're good at nodding. You're good at eye contact. So first it's identify what you're already good at because you need that courage to get you through the discomfort, right? So I say, "Okay, let's start with the micro-skill," and, and there's like a li- you know, we have a list of, like, 70 of them.

    4. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. VE

      Okay, start with the micro-skill. Then who are the people who make you feel like your best self at work?

    6. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. VE

      Who are the people already in your job where you're not overthinking? Let's try a little new micro-skill that you might be good at with them. So it's like we're using soft skills as an experiment, and we're starting with the good because the only way to get through it, to get through the cortisol, to get through the adrenaline of, like, your heart pounding when you're trying something new, is to fall back on the micro s- skill that you're good at. I also think the same thing in conversation. So there are topics that some of us are very good at discussing, right? Like, you're very good at discussing certain topics, but I'm sure if I were to ask you about something that you knew nothing about, you'd be like, "Tell me more," and then you'd be out of your depth. We need to have back pocket topics that we are just, like, so fired up about. Maybe we hit flow when we're talking about it. Maybe we're passionate about it. So if you're in conversation by accident with your boss or the client, you can bring up that thing you're very good at, and then you go like, "Oh, yeah, th- here's my rhythm," and then we can try the new stuff.

  5. 8:09 – 11:21

    Where Did Our Places to Practice Being Human Go?

    1. SS

      As if social media and our phones haven't, like, done enough damage to us s- as social animals, this is another one of those where, you know... I mean, I can just tell you from my career as I'm listening to you, I used to try things out at dinner parties. I used to try things out-

    2. VE

      Ugh

    3. SS

      ... sitting on the plane talking to the person next to me.

    4. VE

      Yes.

    5. SS

      When I first learned my why and I was practicing how do I say it to people-

    6. VE

      Yes

    7. SS

      ... and I got it wrong 100 times. You know, people think I'm this expert because I'm just naturally good at it. No, I practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced, but I practiced in these very safe environments-

    8. VE

      No stakes

    9. SS

      ... where the stake, the stakes were zero.

    10. VE

      That's it.

    11. SS

      You know, oh, the person next to me on the plane thinks I'm an idiot, whatever, but those places are gone now.

    12. VE

      That's it.

    13. SS

      Those places are gone.

    14. VE

      Unless you create casual collisions.

    15. SS

      Yeah.

    16. VE

      Right? We've gotten rid of a lot of those casual interactions. You know, even before you could kind of practice your first impression when you went out to grab groceries. You could practice your first impression when you went to grab something, but now if I need sugar, I'm not going to a neighbor. I'm ordering it on an app.

    17. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. VE

      If I need to grab some dinner, I'm ordering it on an app. I'm not even running into a store and getting something. If I need to learn something, I'm looking it up on YouTube as opposed to calling a friend. I don't know if you remember this, but, like, dating ourselves. Remember when you didn't know something, you had to call someone who knew?

    19. SS

      Never had that experience. [laughs]

    20. VE

      You never didn't know anything, or you didn't know who to call?

    21. SS

      Go on. [laughs]

    22. VE

      Go on, yeah, yeah.

    23. SS

      [laughs]

    24. VE

      Like, I remember that, of having to call someone and be like, "How do you do X?"

    25. SS

      Yeah.

    26. VE

      And they would have to walk you through it on the phone.

    27. SS

      Yeah.

    28. VE

      Those were ways to practice I don't know something.

    29. SS

      Yeah.

    30. VE

      Saying I don't know is a s- is a skill, right? Being able to say it and ask for help, and so I think that we have to cr- recreate those to practice.

  6. 11:21 – 14:17

    Where to Stand at a Party When You Don't Know Anyone

    1. VE

      next party. Okay. The worst place to stand at a party is right near the entrance where people are putting away their coats or just getting off their shoes. They cannot make deep conversation because they're needing to do their things, right? Like, get their drink, get their food, go to the bathroom. So never stand, I call that, like, the entry zone. Like, never stand there. I also think a big mistake is to stand near the food. A lot of people stand near the food. The problem is, is when people are near the food, they're focusing on their food, and also you're gonna have a conversation mid-bite, which never works well. People want to sit down. So never stand there. My favorite place to stand is right as people exit the bar. So wherever the drinks are set up-It's that moment where someone turns around and faces the room with drink in hand that you are a social savior. They have just gotten their drink. They're turning around from just filling their drink with ice. If you are standing right there, you have a very easy opener. "So what brings you here? How's the drink? Is the wine good?" That moment is awkward for everyone. It doesn't matter how extroverted you are. If you are in a room where you don't know who you're gonna talk to next and you just had your filled drink, let me tell you, there's panic. Someone might not look panicked, but they're like, with their drink and they're like [laughs] "Who? Who? Who? Who? Who?" Let it be you. So that's my favorite place to stand, right as people exit the bar. Second choice. Let's say everyone's in groups.

    2. SS

      [laughs]

    3. VE

      Are you s- are, are you like, "I don't know if I can do it"?

    4. SS

      I'm ... You're assuming that I want anybody to talk to me.

    5. VE

      Well, that's, well-

    6. SS

      [laughs]

    7. VE

      ... that, that ... This is also a question I have.

    8. SS

      I'm gonna st-

    9. VE

      This is a question I have

    10. SS

      ... I'm standing by ... I'm totally standing by the coats.

    11. VE

      N- okay. [laughs]

    12. SS

      [laughs]

    13. VE

      No, not by the coats.

    14. SS

      [laughs]

    15. VE

      Okay, the other place which you might like, which you might like, is, do you know where I was standing when I got here? By your art.

    16. SS

      Yeah.

    17. VE

      Because I love art and I love books. So by someone's art-

    18. SS

      Yeah

    19. VE

      ... or by someone's bookcase, because one, I'm always fascinated by the art and books people have in their house. Like, I can learn about them. So no matter what, even if no one talks to me, I'm a happy camper.

    20. SS

      Mm.

    21. VE

      'Cause I'm looking at the art, I'm looking at who did it, I'm thinking about it. Or the books, I'm like, ooh, what, so what are they reading right now?

    22. SS

      Yeah.

    23. VE

      And sometimes you actually attract the right person. There are people who are also searching for the person. They've just come in, and if they see you, in your own mind totally happy by yourself, they might come over and be like, "Oh, you know, what is this person reading?" Or, "Wow, that's a beautiful painting." So that's a good way to do it. The last option, which I, I want you to try if you're willing, if you're brave enough, never walk up to a group and just stand there. It doesn't work. It doesn't work, and people often are like, "What is this person doing here?" Yeah. So what you wanna do is wait for a group to be in a moment of laughter or a moment of aha. Then you walk up, you touch someone lightly on the arm, and you say, "You look like you're having a great time. May I join?" That moment of goodness that's happening in that group, there's something magical happening in that group. They're laughing at something. They're having a aha moment. That is their peak openness moment. And if you walk in and you ask for help, social help, you are going to tug on a part of their heartstring that's like, "Oh, of, of course you can join. Come. You know, we were just talking about how, uh, her dog just, you know, did this thing in her couch. It was so funny. Let me tell you." So, "You look like you're having so much fun. May I join?"

  7. 14:17 – 16:48

    The Most Critical Time to Learn Social Skills

    1. SS

      Are we living in a time where we shouldn't be having this conversation? You know, as social animals, you, you know, some more, some less, some better, some worse, but you bumble and fumble through life, and you learn a lot of these skills. You were saying because we don't call anybody up and ask for help.

    2. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SS

      You don't go to your neighbor. You don't, you know, borrow some sugar anymore.

    4. VE

      Right. Mm-hmm.

    5. SS

      And if you have kids, you're not sending them to the neighbor to go get the sugar.

    6. VE

      Mm-mm.

    7. SS

      You're not ... And so I, I was talking to z- a family. They have a 14-year-old who's afraid to answer the door-

    8. VE

      Yeah

    9. SS

      ... because there's a, might be a person there. These are things that, whether you wanted to or not, you had to learn them because that was the only way-

    10. VE

      Right

    11. SS

      ... to get these things.

    12. VE

      Right.

    13. SS

      So are we living in a time where, though we could be helping people learn these things in the past, everything's exaggerated? Like, we're, like, we're having social struggles, social awkwardness more than we used to because there aren't the natural interactions that are forcing us to learn them.

    14. VE

      Yes. I think we're in the most critical time that if we don't learn it on purpose, we never will.

    15. SS

      That's a scary thought.

    16. VE

      It's terrifying.

    17. SS

      A friend of mine talks about this in terms of dating as well. She, she, she makes the connection to entrepreneurship-

    18. VE

      Mm

    19. SS

      ... where when you're young, you learn the discomfort of asking someone out, getting accepted, getting rejected-

    20. VE

      Yeah

    21. SS

      ... asking someone out, learning how to say no, learning how to say yes, no but I mean yes, but I mean yes, but I mean no.

    22. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    23. SS

      And y- there's a repetition that goes with it-

    24. VE

      Yeah

    25. SS

      ... because i- if you, otherwise you'll never g- go out.

    26. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    27. SS

      And whether you like it or not, you learn it. And now you don't have to learn it.

    28. VE

      You have to learn it.

    29. SS

      You can swipe right. You never know that you've been rejected-

    30. VE

      Mm-hmm

  8. 16:48 – 18:58

    Social Friction at Work: Hidden Productivity Killer

    1. VE

      Ambivalence and confusion is actually much harder to deal with socially-

    2. SS

      Yeah, that makes sense

    3. VE

      ... than toxicity. So if someone is having confusing social interactions, especially at work, productivity goes down-

    4. SS

      Yeah

    5. VE

      ... engagement goes down. I call it friction, right? Like, when I talk to companies where they're very focused, you know, bless them, on technology and tasks and productivity, and I love all those things, but if you don't focus on your social connectedness at work, on the social skills of your organization, you are gonna have so much friction that you're not gonna get things done. Social friction happens when you have someone on the team who goes, "I need help with this task. I don't know who to ask. I'll try AI. Mm, AI doesn't know. Uh, I could ask that colleague, but I don't really know that colleague. I never reach out to them. I'm afraid. I'm just gonna not ask."

    6. SS

      Yeah.

    7. VE

      And so all this friction of I'm not gonna communicate, I'm gonna miscommunicate, I don't know if they like me, we're in a team meeting but I feel very uncomfortable so I'm gonna under-present my idea, or worse, external communication. You go to meet with a client, and because you're so socially awkward, you do the idea poor, right? You don't present the idea in a beautiful way, or you miss the mark because you're so wrapped up in your own head about your body language and your, how you're coming across that you can't even present it. That's missed business. I think the same thing is happening socially, where if we're not exercising social muscles, they will atrophy. I've been doing this for 20 years.This is the first time where I have students of five generations, right? I have 12-year-old students and I have 90-year-old students who are taking c- my classes. Never before have I had that. What I have learned is that oftentimes millennials, Xers, boomers, they will be like, "I'm uncomfortable, I'm awkward, but I'm gonna try it, and I'll try to figure out how to do it. Either I'd like it or I don't." My younger students are like, "I'm gonna craft my life and my career in a way where I don't have to try it."

    8. SS

      To avoid discomfort.

    9. VE

      Right. And so they'll just say, "I'm really socially awkward, and so I, I have to work from home. I'm really socially awkward, so I'm gonna make sure that, uh, I do all my socializing via WhatsApp or via apps."

    10. SS

      Yeah.

    11. VE

      And they limit the number of friction-

    12. SS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    13. VE

      ... interactions they're having, and it's very hard to practice social skills-

    14. SS

      Yeah

    15. VE

      ... if you're not socializing.

  9. 18:58 – 21:33

    The Discomfort With Being Uncomfortable

    1. SS

      It's something that concerns me, which is the discomfort with being uncomfortable.

    2. VE

      Right.

    3. SS

      And being uncomfortable is a fact of life. It's also, um, a normal social thing. And there's many things that factor-

    4. VE

      Yeah

    5. SS

      ... into discomfort. And to your point, which is I don't, you know, I'm socially awkward, so I'm just gonna, I h- I have to work from home.

    6. VE

      That's it.

    7. SS

      Not I prefer to work from home.

    8. VE

      I have to work from home.

    9. SS

      I have to work from home.

    10. VE

      Yeah.

    11. SS

      Or even just, like, if something doesn't go well at work or you get in trouble, you know? And we're not talking about toxicity here, you know?

    12. VE

      No, no.

    13. SS

      Like, very, there are very few sort of truly, truly toxic workplaces-

    14. VE

      Yeah

    15. SS

      ... where it's abusive and you're getting yelled at and demeaned and that-

    16. VE

      And that you should be out of

    17. SS

      ... and you should be out of there in two seconds, and that's not common.

    18. VE

      No, it's confusion.

    19. SS

      The term toxic is thrown about a little too loosely that's really describing uncomfortable, you know?

    20. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    21. SS

      It's a toxic workplace. I'm like, you mean you got in trouble for screwing something up?

    22. VE

      [laughs]

    23. SS

      You know?

    24. VE

      Yeah.

    25. SS

      Maybe your leader does or doesn't have the skills.

    26. VE

      Yeah.

    27. SS

      And maybe they bumbled and fumbled it, but it's just uncomfortable.

    28. VE

      Right.

    29. SS

      I think one of the greatest competitive advantages anyone can have in a workplace is, is knowing how to be okay being uncomfortable. To your point, you know, sales calls that go badly, it's uncomfortable. Being the one who makes it go badly, really uncomfortable.

    30. VE

      Rough.

  10. 21:33 – 36:07

    The Business Card Trick: Creating Conditions vs. Being Charming

    1. SS

      things popping through my head. I love sitting down with you because you are, uh, affirming and reinforcing a lot of things that I stumbled on by accident in my career.

    2. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SS

      So I'll give you an example. I was a young entrepreneur and I would, I'd come u- Somebody f- fortunately gave me some feedback, like, "You're coming on too strong."

    4. VE

      Ugh.

    5. SS

      You know? And-

    6. VE

      Wow

    7. SS

      ... it's mainly discomfort and it's mainly insecurity and it's mainly like I gotta close every deal e- with everybody I meet immediately-

    8. VE

      Yeah

    9. SS

      ... otherwise it's never gonna happen, you know? And so t- too much, right?

    10. VE

      Yeah.

    11. SS

      And so I, I came up with a trick for myself. I would only give someone my business card if they asked.

    12. VE

      Ooh, love it.

    13. SS

      That was my rule. If they didn't ask, and they... I was sitting there sometimes like, "Argh, I wanna give it so badly."

    14. VE

      [laughs]

    15. SS

      So I had to learn to create value, be charming, be nice to the point where they go, "Do you have a card?"

    16. VE

      Love it.

    17. SS

      And now it drives me nuts when somebody walks up to me and goes, "Hey, nice to meet you. Here's my card." I'm like, "Didn't ask for it."

    18. VE

      Like, no, you didn't earn that.

    19. SS

      Didn't earn it. Don't-

    20. VE

      I love it

    21. SS

      ... and, like, you know.

    22. VE

      PSA, don't, don't do that to Simon.

    23. SS

      But, but, but it, but it really helped me-

    24. VE

      Hmm

    25. SS

      ... hone a skill.

    26. VE

      Yeah.

    27. SS

      But it wasn't 'cause I was like, "I'm gonna be charming." That wasn't the goal.

    28. VE

      No.

    29. SS

      The goal was, how do I create an environment where, uh, they'll ask me for my business card? Or when I would have a first-time client meeting-

    30. VE

      Mm-hmm

  11. 36:07 – 42:20

    The Ambivert Reality: Social Fitness and Friendship Nutrition

    1. VE

      trouble.

    2. SS

      Also, it's selfish.

    3. VE

      Hmm.

    4. SS

      Uh, you know, which is I'm going to do all these things so that people like me more-

    5. VE

      Ah, yeah

    6. SS

      ... versus I'm going to offer value.

    7. VE

      A value. There you go. Yeah.

    8. SS

      I'm going to do something for you.

    9. VE

      Yeah.

    10. SS

      And my, my metric-

    11. VE

      Yeah

    12. SS

      ... of that I've done something for you is you'll say yes to a meeting, you'll ask me for a business card, or you'll give me your business.

    13. VE

      Yeah.

    14. SS

      You know, all of these things are metrics and proof of perception of value.

    15. VE

      Hmm. I like it, 'cause we talk... I was talking about social fitness. What if we... I mean, I'm just thinking out loud, but like what if you thought about social metrics, right? Like, what means that your intention's matching your action-

    16. SS

      Yeah

    17. VE

      ... is like people are wanting to spend time with you, people feel like you're being helpful to them.

    18. SS

      Yeah.

    19. VE

      People say to you, "Wow, I've loved spending time with you." Those are all the metrics that you're going for.

    20. SS

      I mean, look, you and I know it from being in the world, right, which is if you're an entrepreneur or a salesperson or you do anything that has some sort of c- collection metric-

    21. VE

      Yeah

    22. SS

      ... whether it's money or followers or whatever, you know, which is you can manipulate people and trick people and get people to click or buy or any of these things, but the problem is the metric-

    23. VE

      Mm

    24. SS

      ... right? Which is if you're driven by the metric-

    25. VE

      Right

    26. SS

      ... then you will find ways to drive the metric.

    27. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    28. SS

      But if you are driven to create authenticity and to create value and offer people something, money is the unintended byproduct of being part of something larger than yourself. And so of course I look at book sales and I look at, you know, I look at those things-

    29. VE

      [laughs]

    30. SS

      ... but only over the course of time.

  12. 42:20 – 46:56

    Micro-Social Skills: Finding the Parts of Yourself You Like

    1. SS

      but I can-

    2. VE

      You can pay it forward

    3. SS

      ... pay it forwards, yeah.

    4. VE

      That... But that is a social skill that we shouldn't ignore these micro-social skills because those are incredibly empowering for you and for them, right? Like, you know that was the right thing. You can think back and think, "I'm so glad I did that. Even though it was awkward, I still did it."

    5. SS

      This is such an awkward conversation and uncomfortable conversation. I'll tell you why.

    6. VE

      Okay, tell me. [laughs]

    7. SS

      Right? Uh, this, and this just so-

    8. VE

      Are you mad at me?

    9. SS

      No.

    10. VE

      Okay.

    11. SS

      I wouldn't tell you. Oh, now I'm-

    12. VE

      Oh, no

    13. SS

      ... agreeing with your head. I know, I know. No, that was cruel. Sorry.

    14. VE

      [laughs]

    15. SS

      No, I'm not mad. Here's why this is an uncomfortable conversation. It just sort of struck me, and I know you deal with this all the time, which is-

    16. VE

      Mm

    17. SS

      ... no matter how much you say, "I really wanna give people value, and I really wanna serve, and I really wanna do this"-

    18. VE

      Mm-hmm

    19. SS

      ... at the end of the day, you cannot separate all of our inherent desire to be liked, included, seen, heard, understood, belong.

    20. VE

      No, you can't.

    21. SS

      You can't separate it.

    22. VE

      You can't, no.

    23. SS

      And so there is a selfishness or a, an insecurity that goes along even when we offer value-

    24. VE

      Yes

    25. SS

      ... even when it's genuine, even when it's authentic, and even though that might not be the driving, it's in the recipe. It's in the mix.

    26. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    27. SS

      And so I guess the question isn't negating or ignoring the fact that there is, even if it's just 'cause it feels nice-

    28. VE

      Mm-hmm

    29. SS

      ... right, to be included.

    30. VE

      And socially safe.

  13. 46:56 – 49:51

    The Man Who Stayed: How Love Taught Self-Love

    1. VE

      probably meeting my husband. I met my husband at age 20, so we've been together for 20 years, and I was peak awkward [laughs] when he met me, and he just never left. In attachment theory, I'm, like, avoidant, dismissive, and so I learned very young to just avoid and be independent. And when I was awkward-

    2. SS

      Safety mechanism.

    3. VE

      Yeah.

    4. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. VE

      And so when I was awkward or I did something wrong, and he would give me all kinds of feedback. My awkwardness comes out as, um, over-questioning. My awkwardness comes out as, um, trying to overcompensate, and he would literally say to me, like, "A version of too much." And he didn't leave, though.

    6. SS

      Mm.

    7. VE

      He would give me the feedback and then be like, "Well, gonna try again next time." [laughs] Or I would leave a party and be like, "I think everyone's angry at me," and he'd be like, "I don't think they're angry, but I think she's angry at you, and here's why." But he never left. And then he was like, "Let's do this forever." And I was like, "Really?" And that really surprised me because he saw me through all my early business years, all my socially awkward years. You know, I met him in college. That wasn't a moment. It was... I was really shocked when he just wanted to stay with me.

    8. SS

      So you believed him.

    9. VE

      I believed him 'cause he didn't wanna go.

    10. SS

      So the minute you believe that people like you for you and that sometimes people are angry at you-

    11. VE

      Yes

    12. SS

      ... and that's okay, too-

    13. VE

      Yes

    14. SS

      ... then-You liked yourself because if he didn't stick around, then you would reinforce the narrative to yourself that, "I'm clearly a bad person, I'm not a nice person"-

    15. VE

      'Cause everyone else had left

    16. SS

      ... there's nothing to like because no one likes me.

    17. VE

      Right, and no one stays.

    18. SS

      No one stays, and-

    19. VE

      I was truly shocked when he proposed. I was, like, truly shocked. I was like, "You... Why would you wanna marry me?"

    20. SS

      Did you believe him the first time he said, "I love you"?

    21. VE

      No, I didn't.

    22. SS

      How many times did he have to say it? What did he have to do-

    23. VE

      Oof

    24. SS

      ... to prove it to you? That... Not prove it to you-

    25. VE

      Moved

    26. SS

      ... that's the wrong-

    27. VE

      Moved. [laughs] I did not believe him.

    28. SS

      But you could, you could still think he's nuts and insane and crazy.

    29. VE

      When he moved, I was like, "You wanna be near me?"

    30. SS

      Right. So was that, was that-

  14. 49:51 – 58:32

    The Antidote to Awkwardness Is Helping Someone Else

    1. SS

      There's an irony in it, right?

    2. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SS

      If I choose to only see the good in you, at some point you'll believe me. It reinforces that we cannot live without each other. This entire conversation of how can I be likable and how can I build my social grit and how can I have a conversation, it's all very me, me, me, me, me, me, me.

    4. VE

      Right.

    5. SS

      And rather to go through life and saying, "You know what? How can I help somebody else feel not awkward? How can I help somebody else feel normal?"

    6. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SS

      In fact, I wouldn't even say feel not awkward because it reinforces the awkward.

    8. VE

      Right.

    9. SS

      How can I help someone feel normal? What touched a nerve? When did you will up?

    10. VE

      I think that it actually takes courage to search for good in people, because right now we're very focused on what's wrong with everyone. [laughs]

    11. SS

      But what touched a nerve with you?

    12. VE

      I think that he... All my bad, my awkwardness, my difficulty, he was like, "I still see good in you, and we can figure it out." I took so long for me to believe that.

    13. SS

      Mm.

    14. VE

      And that was extremely kind. And I still feel that. That's what kind of makes me emotional is, like, I still feel like he has to sometimes put up with me, you know, and he still is like, "I'm here," you know? [laughs] And I'm like, how generous. Because his generosity allows me to be brave socially. It allows me to be brave in business. Like, I started my company three months after I met him.

    15. SS

      Mm.

    16. VE

      And-

    17. SS

      'Cause you had the courage

    18. VE

      ... I had the courage-

    19. SS

      Yeah

    20. VE

      ... 'cause I had a base. And I was also thinking-

    21. SS

      You felt not alone.

    22. VE

      I felt not alone, and that I wouldn't be alone.

    23. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. VE

      Even if the business failed.

    25. SS

      And that's, by the way, that's where courage comes from, which is-

    26. VE

      Ugh

    27. SS

      ... you only need one person in your life who's like, "I got you, and even if it goes sideways, I'll be with you."

    28. VE

      That's it.

    29. SS

      You know? The-

    30. VE

      And I, I did have a failed business.

  15. 58:32 – 58:59

    Why You Have to Push Your Boundaries

    1. SS

      As always, thank you for watching. If you liked this episode, please subscribe to A Bit of Optimism for more interesting guests and even more interesting conversations. New episodes drop every Tuesday. You can also watch A Bit of Optimism on Spotify, and remember, Spotify Premium users can enjoy the show ad-free. But if you'd like more optimism right now, click here to watch another episode. Until next time, take care of yourself, take care of each other.

Episode duration: 59:00

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