Ideas That Stick with Advertising Legend Lee Clow | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Simon Sinek 0:00 You know, I started my career in the ad business, and you were always a god and a hero to, to most of us-

Lee Clow 0:09 Sure

Simon Sinek 0:09 ... including, including me. [chuckles] And so-

Lee Clow 0:12 Sure

Simon Sinek 0:13 ... it is a thrill and an honor personally to, to meet you and have you, to have you join me on this, on this, on our little podcast.

Lee Clow 0:21 Well, it's fun. I'm kind of, uh, old and over-the-hill, so I hope I have something that can contribute to your audience.

Simon Sinek 0:29 You, you, you have lived a life and have a perspective on a world that I hate to say might may be a bygone era. The work that you have done, and I, I think it's worth sharing just some of the more iconic stuff. You were, um, a creative director back at Chiat/Day back in the day, um, and are responsible... You're part of the twosome that created the iconic, uh, 1984 ad for Apple, which, correct me if I'm wrong, was the first ever-

Lee Clow 0:58 Yeah

Simon Sinek 0:58 ... big budget Super Bowl ad, right?

Lee Clow 1:01 Yeah. That was, that we did, and it was a very special moment. Uh, this whole idea of democratizing technology was the impetus of the 1984 commercial to launch the Macintosh for Apple. But it also kind of dramatically changed the Super Bowl because that theater that we created, that kind of unique, nobody had seen a commercial quite like that before on the Super Bowl, gave permission to every creative guy in the world to say, "I wanna do a Super Bowl commercial."

Simon Sinek 1:32 Yeah.

Lee Clow 1:32 And every client believing that if they did a brave, interesting Super Bowl commercial with that huge audience, uh, it would be worth the millions of dollars they'd have to pay for it. So it was a moment in time, of course, in my career, it was, like, uh, amazing in terms of... I mean, we knew we were doing a good commercial. We're working with Ridley Scott. He had just done Blade Runner and, and, uh, introducing a product that nobody had ever seen before, so it's not like you're just introducing-

Simon Sinek 2:03 Yeah

Lee Clow 2:03 ... another soda pop.

Simon Sinek 2:04 Is, is it, is it true-

Lee Clow 2:05 And-

Simon Sinek 2:05 ... is it true the commercial only ever ran on television just that once?

Lee Clow 2:09 It wasn't intended to only run once, only now that's the legend, that we were so daring and so brave that we ran it one time. And, uh, the reality was Steve Jobs, a very brave guy, and he wanted to do an amazing, different, shake-the-world-up commercial. And he believed when we finished that we succeeded, and we showed it at a, at a sales meeting in, in Hawaii in 1983 and got standing ovation. But then the board of directors got cold feet. They decided, "We're gonna spend millions of dollars on a commercial that doesn't show the product, doesn't explain what the product does, and we're gonna spend all these millions of dollars." So the board said, "Sell all the time. We're not running the commercial." And Steve and I kind of, kind of wink and a nod. We sold, we sold a lot of time off, but we had this one spot left, and I don't know, they were gonna give us 50 cents on the dollar or something, and Steve says, "Fuck it. Let's run it." [chuckles] And we ran the commercial, and, uh, the rest is history. But, you know, they think that's part of the legend, that we were so courageous as to only run it one time.

Simon Sinek 3:23 But it, but it is an amazing thing that, you know, I was old enough to see it, to see it when it ran, and I think even a lot of people who may not even been born yet know that ad, that, that 1984 ad that, that introduced the Macintosh. And it is an astonishing thing that all these years later, that it only ran once. I think that's just an incredible thing, that it became an i- such an iconic piece of, of, of our commercial history.

Lee Clow 3:53 It's pretty amazing. I mean, every, every year there's, a different media every year wants to do a story about it-

Simon Sinek 4:00 Yeah

Lee Clow 4:00 ... and tell the story of, of the commercial. And I don't know if that's where young people kinda dial in and realize it. Of course, kids that are coming into the advertising business probably hear about it. But it seems to have a life of its own. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 4:15 So w- I, I'm so curious. Again, uh, you get a phone call from Apple, from Steve or whoever the CMO was at the time, that says, "We wanna do a commercial to introduce our new computer called the Macintosh. We're moving away from the Apple 1 and the Apple 2. It's gonna be an entirely new platform." Like, I'm so curious how that first meeting, what, what happened in that first meeting.

Lee Clow 4:37 Well, we, we were working for Apple for a couple of years.

Simon Sinek 4:40 Yeah.

Lee Clow 4:40 We did Apple 2 advertising and, uh, we're Steve's agency, but Steve kinda threw down the gauntlet 'cause this computer was his baby, his dream child, that he's gonna introduce this, what he believed was the future of computing. It had graphics, it had typography, it had all the, the aesthetics that Steve loved about a computer, and it was gonna be easy to use. Um, so he basically threw down the gauntlet and said, "Look, we're introducing Macintosh. I want a commercial that sh- that, you know, uh, shakes up the world."

Simon Sinek 5:20 Mm-hmm.

Lee Clow 5:21 Uh, we also did a lot of other advertising launching Macintosh. There were individual, uh, kinda, not tutorial, but demonstrations of, of how it worked-

Simon Sinek 5:30 Because it was, because it was something entirely new. We were used to typing in commands into a computer, and this was the first computer that was really graphic user interface-

Lee Clow 5:39 Mouse

Simon Sinek 5:39 ... mouse, clicking, dragging. It was, it revolutionized-

Lee Clow 5:43 Yeah

Simon Sinek 5:43 ... what we know as computing today.

Lee Clow 5:46 Yeah. And he, he basically, uh, like I said, we did commercials that showed how it worked and w- uh, that were charming and wonderful, but they weren't this 1984 thing. And then we did a magazine inf- inserts that were Like 20 pages that introduced and explained how Macintosh worked. So Ma- 1984 wasn't the only-

Simon Sinek 6:08 Right

Lee Clow 6:08 ... commercial, it was just the bravest and the most unique one.

Simon Sinek 6:11 Right. It was the anthemic one that introduced the piece. So-

Lee Clow 6:15 Yeah

Simon Sinek 6:15 ... so, you know, the reason I say you sort of w- had a front row seat to what is probably a bygone era was this time of, you know, where Jobs, Jobs is still, um, a larger than life personality even after his death. He's still seen as, as able to have created a, a creativity outside of a company, innovation in a company that, you know, it seems, seems to have yet to be repeated. What was it about him that allowed people like you and the people who worked at Apple to be so creative? Because there's no lack of creative people in the world today. Why isn't the same innovation and creativity seemingly not coming out of companies today? Like, what did, what did he have in the way he led that we, you think is lacking today?

Lee Clow 7:05 Well, he, as far as I'm concerned, he's the, maybe the only true genius that I ever worked with. I mean, he was virtually able to see two horizons further than anyone else and, and knew where he wanted to go and what he was trying to accomplish. And his expectations of people were so high. I mean, you might have heard stories that he was very hard on people, very tough on people. A lot of people threw up their arms and said, "Fuck it, I'm, I'm not, I'm not gonna do this," because he was so demanding. But the people that stepped up and said, "I wanna do what Steve wants to do," ended up doing things that were beyond maybe what they thought their capabilities were.

Simon Sinek 7:49 Yeah.

Lee Clow 7:49 They did things, uh, when Steve kept challenging them, them to be better and better and better. And, you know, Jony Ives later gave, got the same opportunity to become one of the most famous product designers in the world, 'cause Steve challenged him. He was in the company for a number of years making beige boxes for John Sculley and, and those guys.

Simon Sinek 8:11 Yeah.

Lee Clow 8:11 And then all of a sudden Steve came and said, "Go do something genius." It started with iPod, and then I wanna make a phone and I, and I wanna make a pad. And then he went to Pixar after he left Apple, and he didn't go to Pixar, he bought Pixar from, from, uh, Lucas, and they were doing, you know, just little kind of cute digital an- digital stories and he said, "Let's go make movies." And he took Pixar into the stratosphere-

Simon Sinek 8:41 Yeah

Lee Clow 8:41 ... in terms of being maybe the most successful movie studio in history, and then now it's part of Disney. And he just challenged people to do and be better than they knew they could be. I mean, he was the most challenging leader and he, he was fearless.

Simon Sinek 8:57 Yeah.

Lee Clow 8:57 Most CEOs don't trust creativity. They're afraid of creativity because it's not rational, it's intuitive.

Simon Sinek 9:04 Yeah.

Lee Clow 9:04 And Steve trusted that, and most CEOs, most companies don't trust flying by the seat of your pants and trusting your intuition.

Simon Sinek 9:13 Yeah.

Lee Clow 9:13 They, they believe that, uh, you know, we gotta be more methodical.

Simon Sinek 9:18 Yeah.

Lee Clow 9:19 And it's just rare that there are leaders like him.

Simon Sinek 9:22 There, there's a lot to ex- uh, unpack there. You know, you said Jobs pushed his people harder and challenged them more than you had experienced in the past, and the problem is when people read books about Jobs or they hear you speak, you know, a young aspiring CEO might come out and start being really hard on their people and pushing them and saying, "Ah, well, I'm just like Steve Jobs, you know, I'm, I'm pushing my people to, to do more." But it doesn't make them good leaders. So there, there-

Lee Clow 9:49 Yeah

Simon Sinek 9:49 ... has to be more to it than, than simply putting pressure on their people, on people to outperform.

Lee Clow 9:53 It, it was not only he pushed people, but he knew when they had arrived at some place that was bigger and braver than, than, than what they would normally do. I mean, a lot of CEOs are hard-ass and say, you know, "Go do something great," but they, they don't necessarily recognize great when they see it.

Simon Sinek 10:11 Right.

Lee Clow 10:11 They don't necessarily recognize the, you know, the high ground. Like I said, Steve, you know, could see two horizons further, so he'd know when you're, when you're nailing what he was looking for and you ne- sometimes didn't even know if-

Simon Sinek 10:29 Yeah

Lee Clow 10:29 ... if this is exactly what Steve's looking for.

Simon Sinek 10:31 Yeah.

Lee Clow 10:31 But you put the bravest, most courageous stuff you could on the table, and sometimes he'd reject it 'cause he didn't see what he was looking for, and sometimes he'd say, "That's it. I love it." Uh, and most leaders, you know, they can be demanding, but they don't necessarily know if they've accomplished what they've asked their people to do.

Simon Sinek 10:52 That's so interesting. The, the, the other thing you said was that he trusted creativity, and you say that a lot of modern leaders don't trust creativity, um, because it's too much trust your gut. You know, it, it, it seems to me that you can trust creativity so long as you have vision, right? But you have to know what the distant horizon looks like, and perhaps, perhaps one of the reasons that too many leaders don't trust creativity, aside from the fact that they're probably too accountant-minded, left brain-oriented, numbers-driven, which is a different way of thinking, so putting that aside, you know-

Lee Clow 11:26 Well, so often, so often it's the m- it's the manage, quote, "management" of companies that rise to the top and become the CEO and become the, you know, executive vice presidents, as opposed to, you know, the developers, the thinkers, the creative people-

Simon Sinek 11:42 Yeah

Lee Clow 11:42 ... in the company are usually a department as opposed to the leader.

Simon Sinek 11:45 Yeah.

Lee Clow 11:45 Steve was the leader and he was the most creative guy in the company.

Simon Sinek 11:50 Apple is credited so much of changing the way computing works, but had it not been for their ability to message Steve's vision- ... arguably it would just be a, a, you know, a small little company for, for hobbyists, even if it was a better product. So I think Jobs gets a huge amount of the credit for, for the world that we live in today, but I think you deserve at least, at least s- a, a, a good portion of that credit because without his ability to translate his ideas into advertising and marketing so that the world understood his vision, it would just be the ramblings of a crazy man. So I, y- you-

Lee Clow 12:34 Well-

Simon Sinek 12:34 ... you translated genius so the rest of us could understand it, and you did it for years.

Lee Clow 12:40 What was really interesting is he loved advertising, too. He loved, he loved marketing messages. He could recite Polaroid commercials by Garner and Hartley. He could, he could recite Sony, uh, Walkman commercials. I mean, he understood marketing as a tool, but he loved the creativity of that too.

Simon Sinek 12:59 Yeah.

Lee Clow 13:00 And, you know, the, the idea of i- i- introducing the computer that led the way, I mean, this is, this is the thing that ultimately pushed-

Simon Sinek 13:13 The iPhone

Lee Clow 13:14 ... pushed it over the top. And you were saying I have a lot of credit. I get, I, I deserve some credit for that. And sometimes I find it funny, we're sitting around [chuckles] in a restaurant and everybody's looking at their phones, and I said, "That's my fault." [both laughing] I, I... The fact that I introdu- introduced the world to this stuff, and now, now it's changed everyone's lives, not necessarily always in a good way.

Simon Sinek 13:39 What, what, what was it that David Ogilvy said? He said something to the effect of the quickest way to, you know, to ruin a, a bad company or a bad product is with good advertising. And so-

Lee Clow 13:47 Yeah. No, that's-

Simon Sinek 13:47 And so to some degree, which is, you know, the quickest way to destroy society with, with addictive technology is with good advertising. [laughing] Okay, Lee, I won't give you too much credit then. Um, but, uh, but I mean, truly, you know, uh, the, the anthem ad, you know, the, these iconic companies with these iconic CEOs, they, they produced anthems, advertising anthems that were like visual manifestos for the rest of us to understand what the company stood for, what the company's vision was, what the company's beliefs were, what their values were, and it wasn't there to sell any product per se. And, uh, and it seems like the anthem ad, making these bold statements of vision or purpose, seem to have completely fallen by the wayside, and most marketing and advertising these days seems to be be much more product driven. A, is-- why did that happen? Why are companies not making, spending money to make bold statements about simply their beliefs and their vision?

Lee Clow 14:45 Well, I think, I think the, the big change is this mediascape that's changed so dramatically. So everything now lives on your phone. Everything lives on the internet. And yes, people watch TV, and maybe they come to the Super Bowl and watch some commercials. But the idea of there being a platform to put beautiful manifestos out there is kind of gone. Uh, I love doing, I love doing anthems. Uh, the, you know, the Think Different commercial that we did is still, you know, one of, one of my favorites. And, uh, I love that part of advertising when the tools were television was the, you know, push it, push it out there and then you use other means to explain. Now television has kinda lost its luster, particularly in companies that believe that the internet is some new magic marketing tool and the old ways don't work anymore and the new ways are, are, you know, using algorithms and popping up in your Instagram and telling you you want, might wanna buy this carpet or this, [chuckles] this trip to Tahiti or whatever. Um-

Simon Sinek 16:00 True that media landscape has definitely changed. We now live in a technology world where it is impossible to skip an ad, where whether it's on our streaming services or a website, you're forced to watch an ad before you can get to the content. In fact, I joke that you know how bad a product is when there's literally a timer next on top of your product, i.e. the piece of advertising that tells you when it's gonna be over, right? I mean, like that's im- but if, if we're forced to consume advertising and whether it's on television, uh, on our streaming services or on a phone, why can, why, why not put a manifesto and force us to watch your manifesto? Tell us what you believe. Are companies just, do they lack, do leaders lack the boldness to make these declarative statements? Is that what it is?

Lee Clow 16:45 Well, um, I keep believing that the next generation of really creative media artists are gonna find a way to do exactly what you're saying. How can, how can we put something out there in these new mediascape that's as beautiful and bold and interesting as the, you know, the historic manifestos of, or storytelling of the past? And one of the worries is, yeah, lots of ads pop up and, and, and I can't escape them. But most of them are pretty ignorable even though they pop up and I can't escape them. So but having the courage to do something that so grabs you that you wanna actually pay attention to this commercial that just interrupted you. I mean, yeah, advertising has always been an interruption to what you're trying to do, whether you're trying to read a magazine, whether you're trying to watch television back in the day. An ad was always an interruption-

Simon Sinek 17:46 Yeah

Lee Clow 17:46 ... uh, just like they interrupt you now on the internet. But what we discovered back in the day was if you do something smart enough and cre- creative enough and interesting enough, people will pay attention.

Simon Sinek 18:00 Yeah.

Lee Clow 18:00 And I think the same thing is a little bit true on the internet If you put some content out there that's so kind of special and amazing and interesting that people wanna share it and say, "Did you see this?" And you get comments and all that kind of stuff, um, I think it can happen and can be the f- frontrunner to then other messages from, from the brand

Simon Sinek 18:24 Yeah

Lee Clow 18:24 But it's, it's gotta be s- it's gotta be so captivating and interesting that people actually look at it and say, "That's so cool. I gotta send it to-

Simon Sinek 18:34 Yeah

Lee Clow 18:35 ... all my friends," or, "I gotta repost it," or, "I gotta..." You know, it's gotta be that good, but I think lots of companies still are living in the, the world of products. So we just show our product and-

Simon Sinek 18:48 Yeah

Lee Clow 18:48 ... and, uh, say, "We got a discount today if you buy it."

Simon Sinek 18:51 Yeah. I think you, I think you said it before-

Lee Clow 18:52 You know, that's about it

Simon Sinek 18:53 ... which is part of the problem, is the creatives, quote unquote, "aren't running the companies anymore." It's the accountants that are running the companies, and so accountants will make accounting decisions, creatives will make creative decisions. That, uh, entrepreneurial sort of creative mindset has largely been replaced by sort of like a, an ROI or, or, um, pressure from investors mindset. So just to change tack slightly here, w- how, how did you come up with the Energizer Bunny? [laughs]

Lee Clow 19:21 That's a, that's a very cool story, actually. Um-

Simon Sinek 19:26 I, I should... For those, I mean, I don't know, I don't know if anybody knows what we're talking about, but for many, many years, the Energizer commercial was this bunny that just kept going and going and going, and I think that's what the tagline was. [laughs] It just keeps going and going.

Lee Clow 19:37 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 19:37 This little pink bunny with a, with a base drum that it would beat, would just go. And you would produce spoof commercials, and then all of a sudden, an Energizer bunny would, you know, go across the screen. "Yep, still going." Um, how did you come up with that concept? It was so genius of its time.

Lee Clow 19:50 Very, it was very interesting. They had a pitch for their account. It was at Doyle Dane Bernbach, and we were invited to pitch for Energizer. They had done a commercial that was a bunch of mechanical rabbits going ba-ba-ba-ba-bum, and the Energizer bunny marched through. This was Doyle Dane Bernbach did this.

Simon Sinek 20:13 Yeah.

Lee Clow 20:13 The Energizer bunny marched through and spun around and left, and when we looked at their history, we said, "That commercial is special." And I, we said, "That bunny is special." So we took the bunny from a commercial that Doyle Dane Bernbach did and launched him from the original commercial out of the studio into the world, where then he showed up in soap commercials and wine commercials and, and, you know, all the different places that we ended up having the Energizer bunny just keep going and going and interrupting, interrupting commercials. But the, the actual Energizer bunny was invented by Doyle Dane Bernbach.

Simon Sinek 20:58 Ah.

Lee Clow 20:58 And I, and I sometimes, I sometimes think to myself, um, "I bet there were a bunch of people at Doyle Dane when they were having the review saying, 'You know, we got really good reaction to the Energizer, to the bun- Energizer bunny. Let's do something with that.' And the creative people said, 'Oh, we're pitching against Chiat\Day. We gotta come up with something better than that.'" [laughs] I actually, in my mind's eye, I see that happening, and now, [laughs] and for the, for the rest of their careers, they'll kick themselves for-

Simon Sinek 21:27 I just love the fact that you won a pitch

Lee Clow 21:29 ... whatever they-

Simon Sinek 21:29 I just love the fact that you won a pitch with their idea. [laughs]

Lee Clow 21:33 [laughs] And, and I think, I'm disappointed 'cause, you know, we, we don't have the account anymore, and they turned him into a cartoon. But I thought the, I thought this, the idea that we had was the advertising can last forever 'cause he keeps going and going and going.

Simon Sinek 21:51 L- literally, yeah.

Lee Clow 21:52 And it be- became a euphemism, you know. People in politics would say, "Oh, he's like the Energizer bunny. He keeps going and going."

Simon Sinek 21:59 Exactly.

Lee Clow 21:59 I mean, we, we, we created something very classic with him.

Simon Sinek 22:02 W- what is it-

Lee Clow 22:03 Yeah

Simon Sinek 22:03 ... what is it that makes ideas stick? I mean, the Energizer bunny stuck. It became, as you said, it became part of our, our cultural vernacular. You know, the, so many of the ads that you created for Apple, people would hang them, the, the Think Different ads, and as college students, we would pick some of our favorite, you know, cl- icons, and we would hang their pictures on our walls as statements of who we were. You know? W-

Lee Clow 22:24 Yeah

Simon Sinek 22:24 ... what was, what is it, what, what makes a great idea sticky, that ma- that makes it, that it becomes in- integrated into our lives, you know, y- when it's a piece of commercial advertising?

Lee Clow 22:35 Well, every brand, you know, uh, wants to get noticed and wants to tell their story, um, but so many brands are a category, you know? So there's batteries and there's soda pop. Coming up with a personality for a brand is, is really important. If it can become kinda culturally cool, culturally relevant, the, the, the story that you tell, the way you tell the story.

Simon Sinek 23:05 Mm.

Lee Clow 23:05 Uh, when we got to go to work for Gatorade, it was called Gatorade, and it was kinda losing share, and we changed the brand to G. And then, "That's G" became kind of part of the vernacular there for a while when it, when it transitioned the Gatorade brand to the, to, to this new brand. Finding a, finding a way to take the, you know, the product or brand that you're assigned to and find some special way to put it out there may sometimes to refresh the brand, sometimes to just, uh, find its voice. Because I think... I grew up surfing, and, um, one of the ways I learned about brands was, uh, I really wanted to be a really good surfer, and the, the brand that I, uh, sur- I surf for, J- Jacob Surfboards, um, I didn't wanna just own their product. I wanted to be part of that brand, or I wanted that brand to be part of me because it said something about who I was. So I, I wanted to know the shapers at the, at the, at the shop. I wanted to, you know, I wanted to know the people that were on the surf team, and I wanted to wear their T-shirt Wearing their T-shirt was the kind of the symbol of what I want to accomplish for every brand. I want to wear that T-shirt. I want to, you know, like a badge, like something you're proud of. And, you know, lots of brands have that, have that charm. You know, I think Nike still can, can do that. So making the brand so interesting and likable and trustable that you want to wear their T-shirt is kind of my yardstick for finding the, the ID.

Simon Sinek 24:48 It, it, it's such a good test, right? And I think most companies would fail. Like anybody who's listening here who is, who, who, who works or runs for a company, which is I think a lot of people, you know, could your company pass the swag test? Which is if you gave employees or customers or clients a free T-shirt with your logo on it, would they wear it to sleep in and paint the house in? Or would they wear it to a barbecue on a weekend because it says something about who they are? Like would they wear it with pride or would they wear it as this, as this T-shirt they don't care if it gets ruined? You know, I think that swag test is, is to your point, is a real good one.

Lee Clow 25:19 I'll take that one to the studio and garage. Yeah. I, it's, it's pretty good. It's a pretty good test.

Simon Sinek 25:25 Was there, was there ever a, a company or a brand that you wish you'd worked on that you saw them out there and you had ideas for them that you never really got to put out into the marketplace, but like you, like you s- you were itching to help them tell their story? Was anyone, any, any company that you missed to work with?

Lee Clow 25:44 Well, you know, we had a moment in time where we worked for Nike, uh, when we, in '84, during the '84 Olympics in Los Angeles, and they thought even though Wieden+Kennedy was already part of their company, they thought that we could do some interesting work because we lived in LA, because we had just done Apple, you know, for a bunch of reasons. We got the assignment to do the '84 Olympics for Nike, and we did it, and we launched Air Jordan, and we did some stuff, and then we got in trouble and lost the account. I won't tell you that whole story because it's not, not one of the happier ones. But anyway, we lost Nike. So for years, I, I just, I loved working on a sports brand. It was just so fun. And then finally we got the opportunity, because the guys that we work with at Nike had moved to Adidas in Germany, and we got to pitch Adidas. So for a, for a long time, I was wanting a sports brand.

Simon Sinek 26:41 Right.

Lee Clow 26:41 But we finally did actually achieve that. We got Adidas, uh, and did Impossible Is Nothing and, and, uh, enjoyed that.

Simon Sinek 26:49 You know I'm gonna ask what happened and why you got in trouble. [laughs] If you really don't want to answer, you of course don't have to, but I, [laughs] you, you can't, you can't bury the lead that easily. [laughs]

Lee Clow 27:01 We had done some pretty noticeable advertising, and Jay Chiat had moved to New York-

Simon Sinek 27:05 Yeah

Lee Clow 27:05 ... and opened the New York office, and he had absolutely nothing to do with the Nike account. But Jay was in New York, and he got interviewed by The New York Times about his agency and coming to New York and all. That was what the story was supposed to be about. But he talked about Nike proudly as being one of the brands that they were doing great work for in Los Angeles, not in New York. But the people that wrote the story decided to take the Nike conversation and make it the headline of the s- of the Sunday New York Times magazine-

Simon Sinek 27:40 Oh, no

Lee Clow 27:40 ... saying, "How Chiat\Day saved Nike."

Simon Sinek 27:43 Oh, no.

Lee Clow 27:44 We were fired the next day. [both laughing] Through no fault of our own.

Simon Sinek 27:51 Oh, no.

Lee Clow 27:52 Other than, other than some editor, some, uh, writer at the newspaper deciding that was a clever headline. I'm sure that's not what Jay intended to be-

Simon Sinek 27:59 Right. Oh, God

Lee Clow 28:00 ... the headline of the article.

Simon Sinek 28:01 That must have been excruciating, especially when it was totally out of your control.

Lee Clow 28:04 Yeah. It was very, very sad.

Simon Sinek 28:06 Oh. Can you tell me a project you worked on in your ad days that you absolutely loved being a part of it? Something very specific. Um, it doesn't matter if it was commercially successful, it doesn't matter if it won awards, but was there a project or a product that you worked on that literally if your whole career could have been like this one thing, you'd, you'd be the happiest person alive?

Lee Clow 28:29 Well, I know we're talking a lot about Apple, but it was a very special relationship, a very special brand. And as you know, Steve was kind of pushed out of Apple by John Sculley, uh, who Steve had hired from Pepsi, and went on to do Pixar. But when Steve came back to Apple in 1997, and, and Apple was in big trouble, Apple was maybe gonna go out of business or get sold or something 'cause they'd just become so commoditized. Steve called and said, "Can you come up here? I'm gonna t- uh, Emilio just resigned," who was the CEO at the time, and he was gonna take over as interim CEO, and he wanted me to come up and help. And, you know, classic Steve, he introduced products that changed everybody's mind or changed everybody's lives. But when he came back, he didn't have any products. He had a design department that only was making beige boxes. So we had to do a commercial, we had to do something to put Apple back on the map, particularly it still had a lot of fans. And so when we did the Think Different commercial, Steve wanted to see what we would do, and I sh- and we showed him this idea for a film that celebrated imaginative, creative people.

Simon Sinek 29:49 "Here's to the crazy ones."

Lee Clow 29:50 Think... Huh? Yeah, "Here's to the crazy ones."

Simon Sinek 29:54 Yeah.

Lee Clow 29:54 Uh, that's the, probably the biggest moment in time in my career to have introduced Think Different with the crazy ones. Steve told me, by the way, that the Think Different T-shirt that he handed out to the company was part of him turning the company around, changing the whole trajectory of Apple with Think Different on people's back-

Simon Sinek 30:18 Yeah

Lee Clow 30:18 ... on their T-shirt. So that, that's- By far the most amazing moment in time for me

Simon Sinek 30:26 W- what specifically was it about that campaign? I mean, here you are, the originator of the Super Bowl ad. You brought multiple brands to, to life in ways that few people have ever done. What was it about this one campaign, this Think Different campaign, that, that is, is so special to you?

Lee Clow 30:46 Well, first of all, the importance of it. I mean, Steve said, "We're on life support. We don't know if we're gonna make it. So I-- we gotta have something that puts us back on the map-"

Simon Sinek 30:57 Yeah

Lee Clow 30:57 ... puts us back in the minds and hearts of, of the people who still care about the brand." Even the, even, you know, the software developers were stopping writing software for Apple because they just decided Apple was gonna go away.

Simon Sinek 31:10 Yeah.

Lee Clow 31:10 So first it was the importance of it, but then it was, "Can we find or recapture the soul of what Steve's Apple was supposed to be?"

Simon Sinek 31:22 Yeah.

Lee Clow 31:22 And Steve's vision was always, uh, to be at the intersection of liberal arts and, and, and creativity.

Simon Sinek 31:31 Yeah.

Lee Clow 31:32 The idea that we are going to be this company that gives people the tools to do imaginative, creative things. And finding that kind of soul of the brand, that we make tools for people who wanna change the world, who are the crazy ones, the daring ones, the ones that are brave enough to wanna change the world. And Steve ended up being the ultimate crazy one in terms of changing the world. Look at you.

Simon Sinek 31:59 What I love about this anthem is it, it's a, is it, it is often quoted and often attributed to, to Jobs, but what most people don't realize is it's, it's, uh, i- is this, it is from advertising. It is, it is-

Lee Clow 32:14 Yeah

Simon Sinek 32:14 ... yours and, and Steve's lines, right? I'm actually gonna read it off my phone here, and it's attributed to Jobs even in, in this reading it. But I'm gonna read it 'cause it's so magical. "Here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes, the ones who see things differently. They're not fond of rules. You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them. But the only thing you can't do is ignore them, because they change things. They push the human race forward. And while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world are the ones who do." I mean, Lee, and you and Steve wrote those.

Lee Clow 33:02 Well, here's how, here's how that got written. We, we introduced the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do.

Simon Sinek 33:10 Yeah.

Lee Clow 33:10 Uh, we make tools for those kinds of people. We put that on the table, and then we had to go build the commercial that went with it, all those words that you just read. But we looked at a number of different things. We looked at Robert Frost's poem, "The Path That Less Traveled," and we, we tried a, a, a thing with Seal, the song Seal, you know, "Gotta be a little bit cray-ay-ay-zy."

Simon Sinek 33:35 Yeah.

Lee Clow 33:35 [chuckles] You know, before we ended up writing the words. We must have done 10 versions of the words, 'cause every time we'd sit with Steve, he'd say, "I like that. I don't like that. Push this, push that." So Steve was very much a collaborator in creating those words.

Simon Sinek 33:51 Yeah.

Lee Clow 33:51 He didn't write them himself, but he pushed them around until we got to the ones you just read. And it was a wonderful process, looking back on it, the fact that we're that immersed in, in, in the idea of saving the company.

Simon Sinek 34:06 Yeah.

Lee Clow 34:06 And Steve met with us, he met with us every week on advertising till he passed away.

Simon Sinek 34:13 Wow.

Lee Clow 34:13 I mean, he loved advertising. No CEOs in any of these other giant companies meet with the advertising people every week. That's a department, you know. The advertising department does that. Steve met with us every week as, and he wanted me sitting there every week. [chuckles] Uh, it was an amazing process.

Simon Sinek 34:32 But there was a time when the, the, the CEOs and the creative directors of ad agencies advised the CEOs of corporate America, of entire companies, and slowly but surely, as you said, those relationships went cold, and the ad men no longer had access to the CEOs. Then they were put to the CMOs, and then even then put down to some brand manager. You know, and that's where we live today, where the ad agencies do not have direct access to the CEOs anymore. They don't advise on the vision anymore. W- what happened that, that an industry managed to sort of lose its own importance?

Lee Clow 35:11 It's, that's very rare. I mean, Dan Wieden might have had that kind of relationship with Phil Knight in terms of the trust that he ha-

Simon Sinek 35:19 Yeah

Lee Clow 35:19 ... they had, CEO to, to advertising guy. But like I said, most, most companies are run by mark- managers-

Simon Sinek 35:27 Yeah

Lee Clow 35:27 ... who rise to the top, and they believe advertising is a department. You know, once a year maybe they have a review of advertising to see how the advertising's going.

Simon Sinek 35:36 This is an important point that you're making here. Phil Knight, who founded Nike, had a relationship with Dan Wieden, who ran his agency. Steve Jobs, who's, who's revolutionized computing, had a weekly meeting and a direct relationship with you, who was writing his advertising. These companies that we revere, these CEOs that we revere for their creativity, the secret sauce behind is they kept their creative people nearby.

Lee Clow 36:01 Yeah. Very rare. You can't, you can't name too many of them. I, I don't think you can make, name any of them today.

Simon Sinek 36:07 Yeah.

Lee Clow 36:07 Uh, but it, it's very special. And then another weird way of looking at keeping the creative idea of the brand of top of mind, I, I, I look at, uh, Ralph Lauren. He st- started selling ties in, in San- Grand Central Station or something like that. But he, he nurtured and guided that brand with all of his aesthetics, all of his vision, all of his ideas, so that brand is totally Ralph Lauren, from the cars he drives to the clothes he makes to the stores he builds.

Simon Sinek 36:42 Yeah.

Lee Clow 36:42 Everything a brand does is an ad.

Simon Sinek 36:44 Yeah.

Lee Clow 36:45 So if you open a store, you know, everybody thought Steve was gonna fall totally on his face when he opened stores, but he didn't like how his product and what he made was being treated in the computer stores, so he needed his own store.

Simon Sinek 36:59 Yeah.

Lee Clow 36:59 So he built stores, and that was one of, maybe one of the best ads Apple ever did. And, and lots of people said he's gonna fail, but he ended up being one of the, uh, dollars per square-

Simon Sinek 37:10 Yeah, yeah

Lee Clow 37:10 ... foot stores, uh, you know, in the world, one of the most successful.

Simon Sinek 37:14 Yeah, yeah.

Lee Clow 37:15 And now it's one of the most successful smash-and-grab stores in the world.

Simon Sinek 37:18 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 37:19 What's an early specific happy childhood memory, something I can relive with you from your childhood?

Lee Clow 37:27 I have this funny story, 'cause my mom and dad were very base, working class people. My dad worked at Douglas Aircraft, and, and I always had this artistic bent, this artistic desire, and my mom always supported it, and my dad thought it was crazy, that I had to figure out some way to make a living. But I remember I came home from school, and I had done a, you know, one of those poster art paintings-

Simon Sinek 37:56 Yeah

Lee Clow 37:56 ... that you do in kindergarten or first grade or whatever, and I had painted a boat, and it had a smokestack, and the smoke was going the right direction. And Mrs. Rice, who was my teacher, told my mom, "He has artistic ability. Never let him lose that," or some kind of push that gave my mom impetus to always be there for me my whole rest of my life in terms of developing my art and my creativity and supporting me when I said, "This is what I wanna do for a living." So that's back kindergarten, when I painted the boat with the smokestack going the right direction [laughs] was the beginning of somebody recognizing that maybe I had some skill there.

Simon Sinek 38:39 Lee, what I find so brilliant about that story is it sort of summarizes this entire conversation we've had, which is your teacher sees some ability in you and tells your mom, "Push this. Don't let him lose this," and then your mom-

Lee Clow 38:53 Right

Simon Sinek 38:53 ... takes that as almost a, a clarion call, that she, she champions you. She pushes you to maybe do things that you didn't realize that you had capacity for. You end up building a career-

Lee Clow 39:06 Right

Simon Sinek 39:06 ... for somebody who pushes people to realize the talents that they have inside them that they don't even realize it. One of your proudest memories is of putting Apple back on the map after it'd been decimated by Sculley, and here you are pushing a brand and pushing the public to see something that the rest of us don't necessarily see. And you love to be pushed to realize your own potential. You love to push. You love to work t- for people who push. And what I've learned from you is if you see talent in someone, a family member, an employee, a friend, if you see talent in someone that they may or may not be able to see, push and push and push, 'cause they will accomplish more than they think they're capable of.

Lee Clow 39:46 I think I was lucky enough to have mentor challengers, and I guess one of the sweetest moments, my mom, till she passed away, she always had an Energizer Bunny in her, in her bedroom. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 40:01 [laughs] Because she was a big fan of, of DDB.

Lee Clow 40:04 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 40:06 [laughs]

Lee Clow 40:07 That's right.

Simon Sinek 40:08 Lee, it is an absolute personal thrill to meet you after all these years. It was so long ago that I had an ad career. I've always revered you. I've always admired your work, and the work that you have created guided how I viewed, uh, the importance of manifesto and vision, and I've taken many, many cues in how I've learned to write and speak from, from the work that you have done. And so to, to sit down and talk with you today and hear some of your story is, is a personal thrill.

Lee Clow 40:38 Well, thanks for that. It's, I feel like I've had the most blessed life. I think I was born in the sweet spot of the history of the world.

Simon Sinek 40:48 Yeah.

Lee Clow 40:48 I could be a rebel. I could, you know, wear shorts to work, uh, and at the same time I could, I could be incredibly passionate about what I did.

Simon Sinek 40:56 Lee, such a pleasure.

Lee Clow 40:57 Well, thanks.

Simon Sinek 40:57 Such a pleasure.

Lee Clow 40:59 All right. Thank you, man. [upbeat music]

Simon Sinek 41:01 If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsinek.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other.