By playing, you agree to uListen's Terms and Privacy Policy and YouTube's Terms of Service.

The First Steps to Find Love with Matthew Hussey | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Finding love is a journey. We might take some wrong turns along the way. Matthew Hussey helps people find love, and sometimes, redefine their relationship with love.

Matthew HusseyguestSimon SinekhostGreat Minds

Nov 26, 202456mWatch on YouTube

Summaries, chapters, transcripts, and FAQs on this page are made by uListen, not YouTube.

Great conversations run long. Their best ideas don't have to.

uListen is free on iPhone, iPad, Android, Chrome, and Claude.

See how

Transcript

50 min read · 9,860 words

0:00 – 2:41
An intro to Matthew
1. MHMatthew Hussey
  The phrase I used to say a lot, I still believe in it today, but it needs nuance. Don't invest in someone based on how much you like them. Invest in who invests in you. And that's a very important idea.
2. SSSimon Sinek
  All right. Say that again 'cause that is exceptionally good.
3. MHMatthew Hussey
  Don't invest in someone based on how much you like them. Invest in who invests in you. Invest in someone based on how much they invest in you.
4. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
5. MHMatthew Hussey
  And if we just did that, we would save ourselves from 80% of the heartbreak that we're ever gonna experience in our lives.
6. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
7. MHMatthew Hussey
  Now, there's a problem with that idea. The problem is if both parties go into the situation with that in mind-
8. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm
9. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... we're in a s- standoff. Who, who goes first? [whimsical music]
10. SSSimon Sinek
  Here's the reason why I think everyone should pay more attention to the work that you put out there versus so many other influencers, quote, unquote, uh, with various relationship advice, is you have a humility about you and an honesty about you where you don't want f- from anything other than to see that other people can find some of the same joy and happiness from the-- that you have found, but also to learn some of the lessons that you have learned. And I appreciate that you don't claim to be an expert, but rather you are just somebody on a journey who's got a curiosity and a fascination, and you-- in some respect, you've made yourself the guinea pig.
11. MHMatthew Hussey
  Well, that, th- I mean, it means a great deal. I've admired you, your work for a very long time. So-
12. SSSimon Sinek
  Thank you
13. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... to, to hear that from you is, uh, I, I don't take that lightly at all. I've, I've learned a couple of things about myself over the last few years. Um, one is that I'm willing to sacrifice money to speak about things I really, really care about because there's certain books that I know I could write that would create more opportunities.
14. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm. Five Ways to Meet a Better Partner.
15. MHMatthew Hussey
  But I have a deep, deep, deep love and connection for the heart of what I'm doing.
16. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
17. MHMatthew Hussey
  Like, I really... I, I am... Uh, th- nothing brings me more joy than being able to help.
2:41 – 7:45
“How do I kill the desire to find love?”
1. MHMatthew Hussey
  I, I had a woman that, um, came to me, she was in her 60s, and she said to me, "How do I..." This was her first question to me. "How do I kill the desire to find love?" And, and I got, like, when she said it, it like got... I got a ball in my throat because she had arrived at the point where she had decided that the-- her wanting to find love had become the most painful thing in her life. And she said, "I haven't found what I'm looking for. I have-- I feel invisible. I don't get many opportunities at all. And yet every night I go to bed haunted by the space next to me, wanting to find love and not finding it. And I'm worried that if I have this desire for the rest of my life, I'm gonna be sad for the rest of my life, and I don't wanna be sad for the rest of my life." That's a kind of chronic pain. How do I deal with that kind of chronic pain in my life? The chronic pain of loneliness, the chronic pain of I wanted to have a family, and I didn't have a family in time, and now biologically I can't. The, the grief of life not going the way that I wanted it to go or hoped it would go or thought it would be by this stage. That I-- that is my life's work, is having those hard conversations.
2. SSSimon Sinek
  What happened with the woman?
3. MHMatthew Hussey
  I helped her to see that there was the very physical component to her pain, which was that pang in her stomach, in her chest at night, and that initial feeling of, "God, I wish someone was there next to me." But that there was a, th- there was a relationship with that pain-
4. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm
5. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... that was compounding that pain to an unmanageable degree.
6. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm. Mm.
7. MHMatthew Hussey
  And I s- I suffered from, for many years, uh, a kind of chronic physical pain that I had in my head that, um, at times got too much for me. At times I thought, "I don't know. I do not know how I'm gonna do this." I, I really had moments where I thought... And I wasn't, uh, you know, I wasn't going there in an, in a practical way, but I, in a psychological way, I said, "I don't know how to sign up for this for another 50 years. Like, I just don't." Um, it made me utterly miserable, and someone really helped me to understand that I had a relationship with my pain.
8. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm. You're in a monogamous relationship with pain.
9. MHMatthew Hussey
  I-- There was a s- there was a whole bunch of ways that I was reacting to that pain that was making it way worse. You know, I was measuring my life by the worst moments of that pain-
10. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm
11. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... even though it fluctuated.
12. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
13. MHMatthew Hussey
  And in her case, sh- there was a story that went along with her pain that once she started telling herself that story-
14. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm
15. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... "My life doesn't mean anything because I never got married, or I never found what I was looking for in this area"- I can never be happy because I haven't found someone. Um, it-- I never will find someone, which was another story. Th- all of these were things that turned her pain into overwhelm, and I'm a big believer in the idea that overwhelm... We, we worry about fear, anxiety, anger. Overwhelm is 100% the most dangerous emotion-
16. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm
17. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... because overwhelm is the crescendo of any and all of those emotions.
18. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
19. MHMatthew Hussey
  And it's in overwhelm where we do things we regret. It's in overwhelm where we think we can't manage. And so a huge part of what I try to do with people is lower the temperature so that it's below overwhelm-
20. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm
21. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... 'cause then you're in power again, and then you can create magic again. And, and, and we, we are not in those moments where w- the whole story of our life is being reduced to, "I didn't meet someone," or, "I haven't met someone," or, "I still don't have someone." W- we are in a, a, a kind of singular vision about our lives that is one story, and our story, our, our, our life is many different stories. W- w- we have, y- you know... And by the way, there are many different stories that can be started from where we are now, whose beginnings can be located where our feet are now.
22. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
23. MHMatthew Hussey
  This is not the only story of our lives.
24. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
7:45 – 9:52
How Matthew got started as a dating coach
1. SSSimon Sinek
  So how is it that you started, you know, sort of... I would expect guys to give guys advice, and those sort of men's groups exist, and women to give women advice. How did you become a man giving women advice on, on dating?
2. MHMatthew Hussey
  [sighs] Originally, I saw that-
3. SSSimon Sinek
  Like, why not men?
4. MHMatthew Hussey
  Well, I had worked with men. I grew up in this sort of nest of amazing women who I loved, so I always had a really good relationship with women.
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
6. MHMatthew Hussey
  And the idea-- W- when I first-- When I was helping men for a few years, I had women coming to me and saying, "Why aren't you doing the same thing for us?" And my first response was, "Well, I don't really under- I don't really know what you're going through. I, I don't-- I didn't even know you were having these issues."
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
8. MHMatthew Hussey
  You know, I was a, a naive, you know, 19, 20-year-old guy. But then I started to pick up books that were designed for women, not designed for men, and I started to read them. And a f- my first feeling was, "I don't relate to this idea as a guy." There was a very famous book called "The Rules," f- which, which was really designed for women more than men, and there was a, there was a line in there that said something like... I hope I'm not misquoting it, but this is m- at the time, I read it as, "If a guy isn't already talking to you, if he's not, like, coming over to you, don't go over to him. Like, save yourself the trouble. He's not interested."
9. SSSimon Sinek
  That's madness.
10. MHMatthew Hussey
  I had never related to that in my life.
11. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
12. MHMatthew Hussey
  In fact, the opposite was true for me.
13. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
14. MHMatthew Hussey
  The, the more attracted to you I am, the more likely I'm gonna avoid you [chuckles]
15. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16. MHMatthew Hussey
  So it just, it didn't resonate, and I went, "Oh my God. If, if these are the kinds of ideas people are living by, they're gonna miss out. They're gonna miss out on so many people."
17. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm. Mm.
18. MHMatthew Hussey
  And frankly, they're only ever gonna meet the loudest guy in the room, and the loudest guy in the room, uh, there's no [chuckles] you know, not always the best guy.
9:52 – 12:30
Matthew’s love life
1. SSSimon Sinek
  You know, there's, um... In the sort of advice-giving world, there's a lot of cobbler's children. You know, like divorce attorneys are always divorced. You know, child psychologists have screwed up kids, you know? [laughs] Um, but you are happily married. [laughs] And so, so it gives a lot more credence and credibility-
2. MHMatthew Hussey
  Mm
3. SSSimon Sinek
  ... when you're dispensing [laughs] relationship advice and you actually made it work.
4. MHMatthew Hussey
  So I think my-- If I think about my earliest years in my love life, they were probably-- the story of them was me not being that excited because I kind of felt like I was in situations where I, I wasn't really that... Like I w- it wasn't, like, the person that I-
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm
6. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... really wanted to speak to.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
8. MHMatthew Hussey
  Um, so it was, for me to be brave enough to go, even if it meant going and getting rejected-
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm
10. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... just the ability to do something instead of doing nothing was, was really big for me at the time. And, and by the way, that stayed with me, so much so that, you know, my, my wife Audrey, we met because I went home one year for Christmas. I live in Los Angeles. I went back to London. My friend from high school invited me to his engagement party, which I didn't want to go to.
11. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
12. MHMatthew Hussey
  I very much like this person, but I'm not, we're not close. I had other things I wanted to do, like sitting at home in my mom's house and relaxing and just being cozy for Christmas. [chuckles]
13. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
14. MHMatthew Hussey
  I didn't fancy going, taking the trip. But I said yes, so I did something instead of nothing there. I got there and I saw this person and, you know, I, I, I, I actually can't even, I don't think, take credit for speaking to her first 'cause we-- there was a TV and there was a big fight on, and I'm a boxing fan, so I was watching the fight. But she came over and sort of stood next to me and asked me what was going on on the TV, and that was how we started talking. But, you know, I think about that and-
15. SSSimon Sinek
  Ironic, right? That you learned all the skills to go meet the people, and yet the person you married is the person who came over and met you.
16. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yeah. It was more-
17. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
18. MHMatthew Hussey
  That was more like sh- she didn't, she didn't know much about me, but that was more like- the advice I've been giving to women for so long, which is that actually there are ways that you can create more opportunity. You don't have to be in the passenger-
19. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
20. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... seat all the time.
21. SSSimon Sinek
  Do you think... I mean, I know that you've talked about this, but, um, I'm curious.
12:30 – 14:23
Talking to strangers is a skillset
1. SSSimon Sinek
  That skillset is diminishing.
2. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yeah.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  The courage to go and talk to a stranger, because we don't have to. You know? We- there's-- the technology has eliminated the practice.
4. MHMatthew Hussey
  I think, yes. I think it's been eroded as a skillset. You know, there-
5. SSSimon Sinek
  'Cause that's all it is, is a skillset
6. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... it's a skillset for sure. Like anything, I mean, you know, kind of being comfortable at a party is a skillset. You know, I-- who didn't come out of COVID and feel more anxious going to a social event for the first time? I, you know, if I, if I don't socialize for a month, I start to, like, get a kinda low-level feeling of, "Oh, God," you know? Like, "I've gotta go here and talk to people I don't know." And I still feel that today. I've never, ever fully gotten over that. It's part of my nature. Um, I remember, I r- really remember being in New York one evening, and a guy I'd just met being like, "How would you ever meet someone not on an app?" He was like... I was in my 20s at the time, but he was like, "The idea of going to a bar and talking to someone? Are you kidding?" Like, and I remember thinking, "God, what a interesting statement as it... from a 20 or 20-something man."
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
8. MHMatthew Hussey
  That, like, the idea of going out to a bar and saying something to someone was unthinkable to him. So I do, I do think it, that skill has been eroded, and I think that it's a sh- a tremendous shame and a tremendous opportunity, because if you are someone who even has a modicum of an ability to go and make an impact in person-
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm
10. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... you're way ahead of the curve these days.
14:23 – 22:13
What we get wrong when we search for love
1. SSSimon Sinek
  What are the most common ways that people get in their own way?
2. MHMatthew Hussey
  We don't gravitate often enough or at all to the kinds of people that actually make us happy or bring us peace.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  That's a bold statement. I agree with you.
4. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yeah.
5. SSSimon Sinek
  But the fact that we don't gravitate to the people who we, who would actually... So who are we gravitating to?
6. MHMatthew Hussey
  Um, people that I th- on some level satisfy our ego.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
8. MHMatthew Hussey
  People that, you know, uh, we might like to be seen with, people that we feel proud of b- because of the, what they represent.
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
10. MHMatthew Hussey
  People we have massive amounts of initial chemistry with.
11. SSSimon Sinek
  Those butterflies that you get when you have amazing chemistry with someone and you're like, "Oh my God, this is, oh my God, this is, this person's amazing," right? What I've learned is though all those amazing feelings of attraction are actually dopamine, not oxytocin, 'cause it's the feeling that you found the thing you're looking for. You haven't necessarily built any foundation of anything. So initial chemistry can be exciting and intoxicating, but means nothing-
12. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yeah
13. SSSimon Sinek
  ... as to the viability of a relationship.
14. MHMatthew Hussey
  N- really nothing. I mean, it's the-
15. SSSimon Sinek
  So then what am I supposed to listen to? If not, if not the chemistry and the intuition and the excitement and the butterflies? Like, and if not the familiarity, 'cause don't I wanna be with a friend who gives me comfort and peace and makes me feel safe? Like, if-
16. MHMatthew Hussey
  Well, familiarity g- may not make us feel safe. It m- may be that familiarity for us is someone who makes us feel terribly unsafe. And so it's-
17. SSSimon Sinek
  What?
18. MHMatthew Hussey
  Many people find themselves in situations where, you know, someone doesn't text them back.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
20. MHMatthew Hussey
  And all of a sudden there's, like, a feeling inside like I, they wanna suddenly wanna fight for this person.
21. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
22. MHMatthew Hussey
  Right? What's, what is that thing that makes us suddenly fight for someone who's made us feel unsure of ourselves, who's made us feel less confident, who's made us feel, uh, more insecure, and yet now my instinct is to fight harder? I'm always very, very suspicious of the phrase, "Trust your instincts," 'cause I had a, I had a boxing coach once who told me, "Your instincts will get you killed." He said, "When a punch is being thrown at your head, your instinct is to blink. [chuckles] Your instinct is not to slip or to parry or to get in a good f- position. Your instinct is to blink and squint. You go blind in exactly the moment you need to see." Uh, our instincts in our love lives can get us emotionally killed because there is, there-- we have all sorts of bad instincts. Someone makes me unsure of myself, uh, you know, fight harder. I've decided I like someone after one date, clear the schedule. [chuckles] I'm gonna see them as much as I can in the next two weeks. Drop my friends or that class that I enjoy doing or whatever it is. I'm just, I am all in for this person who I don't even know, who essentially is a perfect stranger. All I know is the impact they have had on me. I don't know their character. Character can only be measured over time. It can't be measured on a date. Only impact can be measured on a date. And so we, we have certain instincts that really do lead us to make big mistakes, like over-investing. You know, we, we do that all the time in early dating. We, we make our mind up about someone we can't possibly have made our mind up about. We get obsessed with someone who, where the obsession cannot possibly be an indicator of how right for us they are It, it cannot be. But because by the way, the... when we look at right person, right person is, you know, not just chemistry, which I'm not devaluing as a thing. I think chemistry is important. But why is it when we say like, when people say, "I have high standards," they're usually talking about a very narrow group of things. They're often the same people who say, "I have really high standards, that's why I never meet anyone." You learn that for the last two years they've been in an on-and-off situationship with someone who's been treating them horribly. So what do you mean when you say you have high standards? Do you mean you have high standards for looks? Do you mean you have high standards for charisma? You can't have high standards for kindness.
23. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
24. MHMatthew Hussey
  You can't have high standards for, for empathy 'cause they wouldn't, you wouldn't value this person who's treating you with zero empathy. You can't have high standards for teamwork or for trust or for consistency. So i-i... what a lot of the work I do is not about saying, "Go find a boring relationship devoid of chemistry." It's saying, "Let's take some of these high standards that you have around certain things that aren't always predictors of great relationships and turn them towards areas that make for very good relationships."
25. SSSimon Sinek
  I regret having you on 'cause you are causing me stress. [laughs]
26. MHMatthew Hussey
  [laughs] I saw a little bit of it on your face.
27. SSSimon Sinek
  Okay, let's unpack this. Um, I get excited when I meet someone. I want to spend all my time with them. Um, uh, there's a little bit of m- younger me, it was insecurity. Like, I better spend a lot of time with this person, otherwise they'll meet somebody else immediately, and so I, I gotta, I gotta speed up the get-to-know-me process.
28. MHMatthew Hussey
  Mm.
29. SSSimon Sinek
  Older me, uh, it's born out of genuine excitement. I'm having so much fun when I, I, I get a cold response, it makes me, uh, fight for it and then sometimes get it and be like, "Huh?" You know? Like, [laughs] "I fought for this?"
30. MHMatthew Hussey
  Oh, when you finally-
22:13 – 25:42
Some wisdom from Bruce Springsteen
1. MHMatthew Hussey
  I once heard Bruce Springsteen talking about what a great show was, like when he's touring.
2. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
3. MHMatthew Hussey
  What, what does an audience want? And he said they, the audience simultaneously wants to be surprised and wants to be made to feel at home, and that's what makes a great show. And I think there is something to learn... I'm s- I've never said this before, but I think there is something really profound to learn about relationships from that statement because I, speaking from my own experience, I've never felt more at home in, than in this relationship. And, you know, I've never felt more seen. I've, I've never felt more accepted. I've never felt more like I could truly reveal the parts of me that I thought would always, um, be shameful or that would make someone not want me anymore or would stop someone from seeing the attractive person they first met. A- and felt like I can say any of those things and I'll still be met with love, and I'll still be met with acceptance. Um, and that's the home part for me. But I think the, the surprised part is that, that kind of, I suppose, that kind of James Hollis question of does, will this diminish me or enlarge me, I think is a very good question to apply to relationships. Um, I heard Oliver Burkeman talking about this recently, uh, 'cause he loves that question too. And I think you can apply that to a relationship. Will being with this person diminish me or will it enlarge me? And I think that's the surprise part. That's the part of... You know, I, I know for me when I, early in my relationship, I-
4. SSSimon Sinek
  How long have you been together with your wife?
5. MHMatthew Hussey
  Four... Oh my God, Simon. Maybe four years.
6. SSSimon Sinek
  Okay.
7. MHMatthew Hussey
  I, I-
8. SSSimon Sinek
  From when you met.
9. MHMatthew Hussey
  From when we-
10. SSSimon Sinek
  From when you started dating
11. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... met, yeah. Uh, from when we started dating.
12. SSSimon Sinek
  Yep. How much, how much, um, should we listen to our friends and family?
13. MHMatthew Hussey
  It's... I, I'm hesitant-
14. SSSimon Sinek
  'Cause if I let my, if I let my parents choose everyone I dated-
15. MHMatthew Hussey
  I know
16. SSSimon Sinek
  ... I know the ones m- I know the ones they like. They like the ones with the big personalities.
17. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yeah. Well, that, that usually-
18. SSSimon Sinek
  Every, every, every girl that I ever brought home that my parents fell in love with had a big personality.
19. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yep.
20. SSSimon Sinek
  You know?
21. MHMatthew Hussey
  I think my mom has that too. My mom fi- it was like she could be charmed. [chuckles]
22. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
23. MHMatthew Hussey
  And I-- And that's a dangerous instinct 'cause now your mom's falling for the same thing-
24. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
25. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... you are.
26. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah. And the awkward, shy ones my parents were like, "Nah, we don't like that one."
27. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
28. SSSimon Sinek
  "We don't like her."
29. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yeah.
30. SSSimon Sinek
  I'm like, "'Cause she's awkward and shy."
25:42 – 30:05
The 4 levels of importance in a relationship
1. MHMatthew Hussey
  i- in my book the 4 levels of importance in any relationship. The first level is, or in any situation with a person, the first is admiration, and that's just where we admire someone. We may not-- they may not even know we exist, but we just think they're great. The second is mutual attraction, and that's the point of chemistry and connection.
2. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
3. MHMatthew Hussey
  The third is, uh, uh, uh, commitment. That's when we're actually saying yes to each other. And the often overlooked part is compatibility, i- is do we actually work together? You know, it's one thing to say yes and to commit to each other, but does it work? Do we function well-
4. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm
5. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... together? And that's-
6. SSSimon Sinek
  I've had a lot of failed relationships with really good people, like really, really amazing human beings who, you know... I, I, I, with a couple of exceptions, I'd struggle to say anything bad about anybody I dated because they were good people.
7. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yeah.
8. SSSimon Sinek
  That's why I dated them. It just didn't work as a relationship, but they're good people. Um, and, you know, wrong time, wrong place, wrong maturity, wrong circumstances, whatever it is. But, so that's, that's an interesting one.
9. MHMatthew Hussey
  I also think that there's a thing that happens to us as we get older that it can be a bit dangerous, which is that we feel the need now to justify all of the nos that we've handed out in the past, all of the times we said, "Mm, not quite right." When we're looking for someone today, the stakes feel almost impossibly high because it's like n- n- you know, I, I... now I have to find someone who [clears throat] makes sense of the people that I have decided not to be with.
10. SSSimon Sinek
  Right.
11. MHMatthew Hussey
  And I think it can raise the stakes massively of the person we eventually choose.
12. SSSimon Sinek
  So much of what you say makes sense, and I think those four, those four things are brilliant. Um, uh, but a lot of what you say I'm struggling with because they s- it-- there's paradoxes involved, you know? That I can't trust my instinct. I can't worry about chemistry on the first few times. I can't give too much too soon. I can't chase someone and give a lot of energy upfront. Uh, I have to consider am I growing, you know, um, um, or am I diminishing?
13. MHMatthew Hussey
  Mm-hmm.
14. SSSimon Sinek
  Which really you only discover in time.
15. MHMatthew Hussey
  Mm-hmm.
16. SSSimon Sinek
  Uh, so there's that rub, which is I can-- how do, how do I even know? They have t- I have to feel [clears throat] safe. I have to feel at home.
17. MHMatthew Hussey
  Mm-hmm.
18. SSSimon Sinek
  Um, and sometimes you have that feeling and that feeling goes away, or sometimes that feeling comes later. And what I've been guilty of is projecting safety 'cause I want it so badly.
19. MHMatthew Hussey
  Mm.
20. SSSimon Sinek
  I say a couple things, I get a couple good responses, then I project a level of safety that I don't have. Um, I've done that. Uh, and so, n- you know, so much of what you say is so insightful, but I-- how does one start?
21. MHMatthew Hussey
  Hmm. Well, I, I think the, everything... There's m- there's, for all of this, there's more nuance when you get into it because these, the paradoxes you're seeing are very, like that to me-
22. SSSimon Sinek
  Well, human beings are messy, right?
23. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... is what makes it so challenging. But it's what's forced me to make distinctions that I think if you-- if I only started what I was doing s- do- doing what I was doing last year-
24. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm
25. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... I wouldn't have made certain distinctions. But I've had to make those distinctions 'cause the very contradictions and paradoxes that you point out there are very real to me, and I've come across them again and again. So like, for example, if we just lived in a world where, you know, the, the phrase I used to say a lot, I still believe in it today,
30:05 – 37:25
Invest in who invests in you
1. MHMatthew Hussey
  but it needs nuance. A phrase I used to say a lot was, "Don't invest in someone based on how much you like them. Invest in who invests in you." And that's a very important idea.
2. SSSimon Sinek
  Uh, say that again 'cause that is exceptionally good.
3. MHMatthew Hussey
  Don't invest in someone based on how much you like them. Invest in who invests in you. Invest in someone based on how much they invest in you.
4. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
5. MHMatthew Hussey
  That is a very, very important idea, and if we just did that, we would save ourselves from 80% of the heartbreak that we're ever gonna experience in our lives.
6. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
7. MHMatthew Hussey
  Now, there's a problem with that idea. The problem is [laughs] if both parties go into the situation with that in mind-
8. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm
9. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... we're in a s- s- standoff. Who, who goes first? I don't know if you're gonna invest in me yet, but I have to invest a little bit, otherwise I'll never know.
10. SSSimon Sinek
  Or what, or what if they both read your books and take the advice and both invest, and so you get a false sense of investment because they're following a strategy and it feels good, and so I'm investing somebody who's investing because they have, following the same strategies as me, but-
11. MHMatthew Hussey
  Well, I think for me-
12. SSSimon Sinek
  You know what I mean? There's like an intellectual investment, there's an emotional investment. Like, I can intellectually do something because I think it's more likely to yield what I'm looking for.
13. MHMatthew Hussey
  Well, I think-
14. SSSimon Sinek
  Or I can feel it and it feels nat-
15. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yeah
16. SSSimon Sinek
  ... I'll give you a real-life example. [clears throat] I, I m- I met a, um, a couple at a, at, they were at a wedding. I was at a wedding. And, um, they were a wonderful couple. They were clearly in love. In fact, I think they've now engaged. Um, and they, she, w- they said to me, "When we hug, we make sure to hug for at least," whatever the number was, "20 seconds, because that's when the oxytocin releases," right? And I was like, "I mean, okay. Sure."
17. MHMatthew Hussey
  [laughs]
18. SSSimon Sinek
  You know? And I, I'm a cynical idiot and cynical bastard. Even though I know a lot of the science, it's, I'm still cynical. And, um, and I was talking to, to, to her, and she says, "Can I give you a hug?" I'm like, "Yeah, I'd love a hug." And we start hugging, and I said to her, "You're counting in your head, aren't you?" She goes, "Yeah." I'm like, "Stop. We're s- we're ending this hug right now," right?
19. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yeah.
20. SSSimon Sinek
  You've intellectualized an emotional connection, right? Here's the great thing about human beings. Human beings, they know. They can, they can feel, right? We're social animals. Like, this is all inbuilt. I said, "We're gonna do this hug again," right? "This time, do me the favor and s- just don't count. Just hug. Just be in the hug," right? And we hugged, and it was beautiful. I don't know, maybe it was 15 seconds, maybe it was 20 seconds, maybe it was 25 seconds when it started to feel like magic. And we hugged and it was beautiful. It was a warm moment, and I stepped back and said, "How'd that feel? Did that feel fantastic?" She said, "Yeah." I'm like, "And no counting required."
21. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yep.
22. SSSimon Sinek
  And I think this is-
23. MHMatthew Hussey
  I resonate so much with what you're saying, by the way
24. SSSimon Sinek
  ... and I think this is-
25. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yeah
26. SSSimon Sinek
  ... part of the problem with-
27. MHMatthew Hussey
  Mm-hmm
28. SSSimon Sinek
  ... the work that I do and the work that you do-
29. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yeah
30. SSSimon Sinek
  ... and the work that others like us do, which is we're explaining things to the point where people are following the advice intellectually, but they're forgetting that the relationship is emotional.
37:25 – 41:23
FOMO vs .gratitude
1. MHMatthew Hussey
  a certain point, what makes a home a home is that we actually put down roots.
2. SSSimon Sinek
  Right.
3. MHMatthew Hussey
  And, and I, and I think that we do live in a world today where we are so... This is why I, I love, uh, Bergman's idea of the kind of, uh, you know, FOMO being something that is a kind of, a bit of a joke because by definition, anytime we're doing anything, we are by definition missing out on practically everything. [laughs] So n- worrying about the party you missed tonight, you, why aren't we worrying about every event on Earth we're missing tonight? We're always missing out on basically everything, and the same is true in our love lives.
4. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
5. MHMatthew Hussey
  Uh, uh, there's plenty of people that would be awesome to marry.
6. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
7. MHMatthew Hussey
  There's a lot of them. And I think that there's this feeling of, "If I don't make the choice, everything is still possible," and that's exciting. There is something exciting about that.
8. SSSimon Sinek
  Versus saying, "Actually, you're gonna miss out on all of it anyway."
9. MHMatthew Hussey
  You're gonna miss out on everything.
10. SSSimon Sinek
  So whoever you, whoever you settle down with, you're gonna miss out on everyone else.
11. MHMatthew Hussey
  Everyone.
12. SSSimon Sinek
  I, I promise you.
13. MHMatthew Hussey
  [laughs]
14. SSSimon Sinek
  And I promise you, whatever you wish your partner had, I guarantee you somebody else has that. [laughs]
15. MHMatthew Hussey
  Somebody else has it. Like, it, it, it... And I, and at some point, I think we have to decide what, where, where our peace is, is gonna lie.
16. SSSimon Sinek
  Okay. So gratitude is the thing we're talking about here, which is, which is going into a relationship the same way we should be going into life, which is, you know, like, I, I, I don't believe in bucket lists, you know? Uh, to me, a bucket list is a list of things I haven't done.
17. MHMatthew Hussey
  Mm-hmm.
18. SSSimon Sinek
  Right? And so I'm forced to look at the things that are missing in my life.
19. MHMatthew Hussey
  Right. I love that.
20. SSSimon Sinek
  That's what a bucket list is. So I live my life with a reverse bucket list, where I will write down something I've done or an experience I had or a place I visited that I never thought I'd ever have the opportunity to do, and it was magical, and then, then I write it down.
21. MHMatthew Hussey
  That's great. I love that.
22. SSSimon Sinek
  And I will look at the list of things that I've done and the people I've met and the experiences I've had, and every day I go, "Oh my God, my life's incredible."
23. MHMatthew Hussey
  Mm.
24. SSSimon Sinek
  And I keep adding to it? That's insane. I, it should be done, you know? And I, so I think what you're talking about in a relationship is instead of looking for the things that are missing and knowing that somebody else has them, to also say or to replace that with, "Look at the things that I'm getting, and other people can't give me those things," 'cause just as you are missing out on everything, other people are missing out on this.
25. MHMatthew Hussey
  I, I kind of think of, like, uh, someone who has the raw materials for a great relationship with you and vice versa, I see it like it's a plot of land.
26. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
27. MHMatthew Hussey
  And we often make the mistake of really overvaluing the land. [laughs] And a relationship isn't a plot of land. It's like the, it's the castle the two of you build on that land.
28. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
29. MHMatthew Hussey
  And it's all of the ways that the stone-
30. SSSimon Sinek
  It's-
41:23 – 45:04
Do we need confidence to find love?
1. SSSimon Sinek
  correct that we first have to find confidence and love for ourselves before we can find love for another? Or can the right partner help us find that thing that has been elusive even to ourselves?
2. MHMatthew Hussey
  Both.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
4. MHMatthew Hussey
  I, I, I don't think you, you don't get to show up with, I don't, with zero ability to connect to yourself or to love yourself and to just give someone else the responsibility. But I'm not a big fan of, like, this v- thing that goes around where it's like you, you have to be-
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
6. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... like, you have to have done the work on yourself before you ever meet someone else. You have to be happy first. I'm like, "Give me a break." How many-
7. SSSimon Sinek
  It's an impossible standard
8. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... how many people do we know-
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
10. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... that are in happy relationships that absolutely were not enlightened people on the day they met their partner?
11. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
12. MHMatthew Hussey
  Like, it's, it's kind of an insult to people who are actually out there and single that we keep telling everyone, "You just haven't done enough work." [laughs]
13. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
14. MHMatthew Hussey
  Like, the rest, all the rest of the world who's married, they, they, you know, the, you know, Kate who met Brad at university at 21.
15. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah, yeah.
16. MHMatthew Hussey
  They figured it out.
17. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
18. MHMatthew Hussey
  Like, uh, and they're still married, and that's bec- you just ha- you're not enlightened enough yet.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
20. MHMatthew Hussey
  I have a real problem with that idea, but-
21. SSSimon Sinek
  It's a tricky one because you could be insecure in a relationship, and the relationship can be highly functional.
22. MHMatthew Hussey
  Ye-
23. SSSimon Sinek
  Or can you not? I mean, we all have insecurities.
24. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yeah, we all have insecurities.
25. SSSimon Sinek
  But-
26. MHMatthew Hussey
  I, I think Uh, yeah. We can be insecure and the relationship can be functional, but it doesn't mean the relationship wouldn't be a lot stronger if we worked on those things
27. SSSimon Sinek
  Can I answer my own question, and then you can tell me if I'm right or wrong? [laughs]
28. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yeah. And then I wanna tell you something about confidence, 'cause this is like, I, this, you're on a, onto a whole passion for me right now.
29. SSSimon Sinek
  It's okay to be insecure in your own relationship. You're always gonna have insecurities-
30. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yep
45:04 – 53:11
Romance vs. self-love
1. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... the, the, the thing I think that's really important in relation to loving ourselves, because that's a very, very overused idea, is the, the loving ourselves thing. It's a, it's become very trite. And at the, the thing I'm... I've, I was fixated on that for a very long time, 'cause I was not someone who was good at that.
2. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
3. MHMatthew Hussey
  I never really connected with that idea. I got it. I'm like, "I get it."
4. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
5. MHMatthew Hussey
  Love yourself. Never any real emotional connection there for me.
6. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
7. MHMatthew Hussey
  And I needed a more robust model for that. Otherwise, I was never gonna be able to connect to it. And for me, l- loving myself, and this is what I tell people these days, is really about understanding that it's, you can actually m- make it very, very simple, which is, firstly, if I like people, if I care about people, then I'm a citizen of the world.
8. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
9. MHMatthew Hussey
  I, there's no reason why I should treat myself worse than I would treat anyone else. Forget treating yourself better for a moment.
10. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
11. MHMatthew Hussey
  There's no reason why I should treat myself worse-
12. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm
13. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... if I care about people. The reason we treat ourselves worse, by the way, is because we apply a romantic model to loving ourselves. We, in the romantic model, we fall in love with someone because there's a sense of mystery and excitement and space between us, and all the things Esther Perel talks about. You know, we, we, we wanna close down that space, and we wanna grab onto someone, and it... So that's, that's love, and we don't need... Or that's, you know, what we do romantically in love, and we don't need help with that.
14. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
15. MHMatthew Hussey
  It just happens to us. When it comes to loving ourselves, s- that, that's not natural at all for most of us, and the reason is because the romantic level, the model doesn't work. You, if familiarity breeds contempt, who would you have more contempt for-
16. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
17. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... than the person you've spent every minute with-
18. SSSimon Sinek
  For your entire life
19. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... your entire life, right? It, you know every one of your flaws. You know the worst things you've ever done. You know all of your bad points on a level of detail-
20. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
21. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... microscopic detail, that you'll never know about anyone else.
22. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
23. MHMatthew Hussey
  So it's really easy to hate ourselves. And for anyone who's listening to this, I wanna, if you f- really struggle to love yourself and you find it really easy to hate yourself, welcome to the club. That's like a, that, to me, that's the normal state of affairs for someone that you've had to room with for the, your entire life.
24. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
25. MHMatthew Hussey
  But, but there is, if we take away the romantic model and we look for a different model, I think there we find the basis for actually loving ourselves, which, like I said, starts with I'm one of those eight billion people in the world, so there's no reason to treat myself worse. Could there be a reason to treat myself better, though? And if so, what would it be? And the way I've come to look at that is that we are the only person who's been given the job, by nature, by God, whatever you believe, we're the only person who's been assigned the job of taking care of the human that is us. No one else on Earth has been given that as their primary job. It, I almost imagine that there was a point in your life where someone told you, "Hey, just so you know, you have one job."
26. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
27. MHMatthew Hussey
  "Just take care of this human. This is your human. You may choose to take care of other humans in your life. That's okay. There's one human that it's your job to take care of, and that's you." And when we start to look at it through that lens, it changes things. It's a bit like the way a parent is with a child. If you ask a parent, "Why do you love your child?" Most parents will not say, "Because they got an A in English literature last week, and they're really gorgeous, and they dress well." And they'll say, "What are you talking about? That's my son. That's my daughter. They're mine."
28. SSSimon Sinek
  Do you know what's really funny is how honest people are with, about their kids as well? Like, like [clears throat] I mean, you hear parents talk about it, and especially somebody who doesn't have kids, it's really funny to hear, which is, like, you look at their friends and be like, "Oh my God, that kid's a really good-looking kid. My kid's kinda funny looking."
29. MHMatthew Hussey
  [laughs]
30. SSSimon Sinek
  You know? And it's like, you know, it's like, like-
53:11 – 56:34
A final story from Simon
1. SSSimon Sinek
  story, and then we're done. I promise, to anybody who's still clinging on. Um, when... So very often a woman will say to a man, "What are you thinking?" What... Sitting there watching TV, quiet moment, and woman will turn to a man and say, "What are you thinking?" And the guy will say, "Nothing." And we've all said it, and what we mean is nothing of consequence, but we say, "Nothing."
2. MHMatthew Hussey
  Mm.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  And the number of people we accidentally make insecure because how can you be thinking nothing?
4. MHMatthew Hussey
  [laughs]
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Is it something I said? Is it something I did? Is this something with the relationship? And then the s- and then you're sitting there just watching TV, and there's a whole, "So I don't know what's going on next to me, but it'll come out in a day or two, and it won't be pretty."
6. MHMatthew Hussey
  [laughs]
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Right? And so somebody gave me some advice a long time ago [chuckles] which is answer the question literally. Like, if they say, "What are you thinking?" Actually t- the thing that you think is of no consequence, s- actually say what you're thinking. Let them in on it. And I remember sh- I'm sitting next to my girlfriend. She goes, "What are you thinking?" And I told her exactly what I was thinking in that moment, and what I was thinking in that moment is, "I wonder if the remote control will work if I point it backwards instead of forwards."
8. MHMatthew Hussey
  [laughs]
9. SSSimon Sinek
  And she said, "That's what you're thinking?" I went, "Yeah."
10. MHMatthew Hussey
  [laughs]
11. SSSimon Sinek
  And she goes, "That's what you're thinking?" I went, "Yeah." And she went, "Never mind." And everything was fine.
12. MHMatthew Hussey
  I've... It is so funny you say this 'cause-
13. SSSimon Sinek
  I told her exactly what I was thinking
14. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... I've started doing, like, I do exactly this. Exactly this.
15. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
16. MHMatthew Hussey
  And it, the, it's the source of so many ridiculous moments. It reminds me of, like, Gareth in the original British Office-
17. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah, yeah
18. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... where he gets asked, like, what he's thinking.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
20. MHMatthew Hussey
  And he says, "I was thinking, I was wondering if there'll ever be a boy born who can swim faster than a shark." [laughs] And I... That's the-
21. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
22. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... what would happen if I point the remote-
23. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
24. MHMatthew Hussey
  ... in the wrong way. But it's... You're right because it's, this is exactly-
25. SSSimon Sinek
  Like, my mind wanders.
26. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yeah.
27. SSSimon Sinek
  And it thinks about ridiculous things.
28. MHMatthew Hussey
  [laughs]
29. SSSimon Sinek
  And inst- I just say them now. If somebody asks me the question, "What are you thinking?" I will tell you exactly what I'm thinking in that moment, and you'll be very disappointed.
30. MHMatthew Hussey
  Yeah.