Skip to content
Simon SinekSimon Sinek

The Quiet Power of the Empathetic Leader with Navy SEAL turned rowing coach Gordon Schmidt

When morale problems affect a team, some leaders decide to make a big, rousing speech. But quite often, it’s the quiet leader who leads with empathy that sees a better emotional solution. Gordon Schmidt is a retired Navy SEAL with enough combat experience to understand that empathy is an operational advantage, not a weakness. After 20 years of military service, he started his second act as a high school rowing coach. According to Gordo, be it coaching rowers or leading soldiers, the emotional lessons he’s learned about leadership apply just the same. In this conversation, Gordo shares with me how to move on into a new chapter in life and why emotional intelligence in high-stress situations is often a leader’s only way out. This…is A Bit of Optimism. For more on Gordon and his work, check out: https://www.sdrcjrs.com/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=71827&module_id=151617 --------------------------- This episode is brought to you by True Classic! I really love their T-shirts, so we called them up and asked if they wanted to work together. And they said yes! Check out their clothes at: http://trueclassictees.com/ --------------------------- ⏰ Timestamps 0:00 From Navy SEAL to rowing coach 6:57 SEAL Teams and crew teams 9:58 The pain of leaving the SEALs 17:08 Coach Gordon tells a rowing story 24:00 The culture of SEAL Teams 29:07 Different types of grit 30:48 Why Simon hates writing books 33:08 Ad with Authenticity: True Classic 34:58 Why people quit BUD/S (SEAL training) 39:52 When leaders quit, what happens to a team? + + + Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, Together is Better, and The Infinite Game. + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com/ Live Online Classes: https://simonsinek.com/classes/ Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek Simon’s books: The Infinite Game: https://simonsinek.com/books/the-infinite-game/ Start With Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/start-with-why/ Find Your Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/find-your-why/ Leaders Eat Last: https://simonsinek.com/books/leaders-eat-last/ Together is Better: https://simonsinek.com/books/together-is-better/ + + + #SimonSinek

Simon SinekhostGordon Schmidtguest
Jul 1, 20251h 9mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 6:57

    From Navy SEAL to rowing coach

    1. SS

      Do you prefer coaching teens or do you wanna go back and coach SEALs? If the Navy called you and said, "We're looking for somebody to coach SEALs," would you entertain the job if it meant leaving the kids?

    2. GS

      I c- I don't know that I can answer that question. [laughs] Um-

    3. SS

      It would be a torturous decision.

    4. GS

      It would be a torturous decision.

    5. SS

      [gentle music] When we try to think of what it takes to inspire a team, we often picture a big dramatic speech or making some sort of bold, powerful move. But sometimes it takes a lot less. Simply understanding how a team is feeling is all it takes to inspire them and help them operate at their natural best. That's what I love about Gordon Schmidt. Gordo is a retired Navy SEAL who spent nearly 20 years leading teams in combat, and has found his second act as a high school rowing coach. For Gordon, great leadership is not about making a big scene. It's quite the opposite. It's about quietly guiding people when it matters most. This is A Bit of Optimism. This episode is brought to you by True Classic. They're a great company, and I love their CEO. I've actually been wearing their T-shirts long before they became a sponsor. Their stuff is pretty fantastic, so do check it out. You had what some people, at least from looking from the outside in, had one of the coolest jobs, passion-driven, uh, amazing team spirit, you know. And how, how long were you in the Navy?

    6. GS

      Uh, I was in 20 years and six months.

    7. SS

      20 years and six months. Um, and you left very recently. You have, you haven't been out very long.

    8. GS

      Mm, about a year and a half.

    9. SS

      About a year and a half. And now you coach rowing.

    10. GS

      Yes.

    11. SS

      How did you get... I mean, how did you make the leap from, you know... 'Cause, you know, the s- the stereotype is, like, I'm gonna become a consultant, I'm gonna become an author, I'm gonna become a public speaker.

    12. GS

      [laughs]

    13. SS

      You know, I was a Navy SEAL, let me tell you how to lead, you know? How did you get to the, the job you have now? Who are you coaching?

    14. GS

      So I coach at, at San Diego Rowing Club, um, and it's the high school program, the, specifically the men. And, uh, how did I get into it? So I rowed at the Naval Academy, so I had that background. And then I pretty much hung up the oar for the entire time I was in the Navy. Post-retirement, I went for a few months where I just... That was tough. It was a tough time. I was really kind of wallowing. And I had a former teammate from Navy who lives in San Diego as well, he's also in the Navy still. I talked to him and he'd say, "You should come out and row." And I'm like, "Ah, I don't wanna. I don't wanna do... I... That was in the past, I don't wanna do it."

    15. SS

      Bygone era.

    16. GS

      Yeah. And he convinced me, and finally, you know, I show up. And the funny part is that the first practice I went to with this masters rowing program, which is... Masters rowing is just post-collegiate. You know, there's high school, which is called juniors, collegiate, there's the elite level, the Olympic level, and then everybody in between, uh, is just a masters rower. But I showed up, and the first practice was a seat race, which is when you line two boats up next to each other, you race a certain distance, usually about three minutes or 1,000 meters, and then you swap rowers and race again. And you compare the margins to determine who the faster rower is. So the very first practice we were seat racing, and I thought, "Well, you know, I'll just be in the boat rowing and this'll be fine," and had no idea that my seat race was up. Now mind you, I hadn't done this in about 22 years.

    17. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. GS

      So you can imagine my surprise when the coach was like, "Okay, uh, Gordon and John." And I was like, "Is it my... I'm supposed to switch now?"

    19. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    20. GS

      And I remember there was a guy behind me in the boat who goes, "Who the hell's Gordon?" And I was like, "That's me." [laughs] "I guess, I guess it's my turn."

    21. SS

      How many guys in the boat?

    22. GS

      We raced in eights that morning.

    23. SS

      Okay.

    24. GS

      So two boats of eight guys each, and I was off to the races. You know, getting back in the boat and feeling the rhythm and the flow, and it just, it's riding a bicycle. It came right back, and I remembered how much I loved it. And, uh, competed with the masters program through the summer. We did very well. There's a, there's a national championship for masters rowers. And towards the fall, within the community of rowers with, with San Diego Rowing Club, uh, one of the guys mentioned, he said, "Hey, uh, the juniors program's looking for a new head coach. The guy who is, was the head coach is moving on to a college program, so anyone interested, you know, contact, uh, the guy who runs the program." And, and I thought to myself, "Well, I'm interested."

    25. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    26. GS

      "That might be fun." So I did, and, um, I was honestly kinda surprised to get the job. I had zero coaching experience. And the guy who hired me, I asked him a little while after I was hired, I said, "You know, I'm just now learning who also applied." And th- there was a great candidate pool, guys with lots of coaching experience, people who knew San Diego Rowing Club who-

    27. SS

      Mm-hmm

    28. GS

      ... who applied. "Why'd you pick me?" And he said, "Well, I know you know how to row, and I know that you've dealt with the entire spectrum of the male ego," referring to my military experience. So I was like, [laughs] "All right." We chuckled about it. I said, "Yeah, that's, that's accurate." And he goes, "That's all it takes." And I said, "Yeah, okay. Fair enough."

    29. SS

      What have you discovered about yourself now that you are Coach Gordo?

    30. GS

      [laughs] Um-

  2. 6:57 – 9:58

    SEAL Teams and crew teams

    1. SS

      So how is a crew team like a SEAL team?

    2. GS

      Mm.

    3. SS

      And how is a SEAL team like a crew team?

    4. GS

      Ooh. In so many ways.

    5. SS

      'Cause, you know, how many, how many guys in a, in a... I mean, you go out with eight guys, right?

    6. GS

      Uh-

    7. SS

      I know it's a range.

    8. GS

      It's a range, sure. Um, and different missions could-

    9. SS

      Sure

    10. GS

      ... could-

    11. SS

      But eight, eight is not unusual.

    12. GS

      It wouldn't be unusual.

    13. SS

      Okay. So eight, eight V eight.

    14. GS

      [laughs]

    15. SS

      How are they the same?

    16. GS

      Oh, man.

    17. SS

      Male ego, we got that one. [laughs]

    18. GS

      [laughs]

    19. SS

      Coordination.

    20. GS

      Always a factor.

    21. SS

      Got that one.

    22. GS

      Coordination. Um, so I, I've always, just in reflecting on my own choices in life and, and what I loved about the sport of rowing, all of those things were, I think, the same things that drew me to a career in the SEAL teams. So if you boil it down, I mean, the, the differences are obvious, but the similarities are vast. I mean, just going through BUD/S, you're, you're in a boat crew. It's called a boat crew.

    23. SS

      Mm.

    24. GS

      [laughs] You know, that's how you're trained to, uh, to survive and, and to get through it, and you realize through pain that working together is the only way to success, which is an inherent aspect to the, to the sport of rowing. I'll make a distinction here. There's... I think there's a difference between rowing and crew. Rowing is the, the overall sport, but you can row by yourself. You can row in a single scull, and you can compete in a single scull. Um, but crew requires a crew. It requires a team.

    25. SS

      Literally.

    26. GS

      Literally.

    27. SS

      Mm.

    28. GS

      And there's various sized boats, but the fact that it's crew and not just rowing, I mean, rowing is what the guys in a crew do.

    29. SS

      Right. This is, "I row crew," is what people say.

    30. GS

      Right, yeah. I've seen bumper stickers that say, "I play crew," which is-

  3. 9:58 – 17:08

    The pain of leaving the SEALs

    1. GS

      the group that I was with or the-

    2. SS

      Mm-hmm

    3. GS

      ... or the-

    4. SS

      Yeah. I know

    5. GS

      ... You know, it felt weird taking full ownership of-

    6. SS

      It seems healthier.

    7. GS

      Uh, maybe.

    8. SS

      "I am a SEAL" is an identity.

    9. GS

      Yes.

    10. SS

      "I'm in the SEALs" is a, a job, an act of service-

    11. GS

      Yes, but it was-

    12. SS

      ... a contribution

    13. GS

      ... but I think that w- where the wallowing comes in is that I realized once I was out that, um, it was so much a, a deep part of, of who I was.

    14. SS

      Yeah.

    15. GS

      And then also, you know, the loss of, of a brotherhood.

    16. SS

      Yeah.

    17. GS

      I mean, that sound is deafening.

    18. SS

      Mm.

    19. GS

      Um, I had a friend tell me once we were talking about having a similar conversation and, and he said, "Hey, in the teams, what, what'd they always tell you was the loudest sound in the world?" I said, "Oh, that's easy. Your gun going click in a firefight." Whoops. [laughs] That's, that's a loud sound. And he said, "Wait until you get out. The loudest sound in the world is the gate shutting behind you." And, uh, I remember the day. You have to turn in your badge, and then you have to badge out of the gate, so somebody walks you out, you know, somebody I didn't know, not a friend, just random person.

    20. SS

      Some, some random guy escort out.

    21. GS

      And, uh, I remember sort of pausing at the gate, and he badged, and the gate opened, and I s- stood there for a second. He's like, "You good?" I was like, "Yeah, I'm good." And as I stepped through the gate and it closed behind me, this pit in the bottom of my stomach of feeling that loss, you know, feeling that, um, you know, it's now a thing of my past as opposed to what I do now.

    22. SS

      Mm.

    23. GS

      Um, so, so I, I can't honestly say that it wasn't-

    24. SS

      Yeah, yeah

    25. GS

      ... a deep part of my identity.

    26. SS

      Yeah. Every vet I ever talk to, whether they were in for a short period or a long period, whether they loved the military or hated the military, 100% of them, no matter what they do next, misses the brotherhood and the sisterhood that they had-

    27. GS

      Of course

    28. SS

      ... in the, in, in the service, which makes sense. And, and s- special operators, that camaraderie is even more exaggerated, so it makes sense that the loss is even more exaggerated.

    29. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    30. SS

      You know, where it's not just something I loved and it was the f- my favorite thing about being in the military, but to your point, likeIt's an identity. I mean-

  4. 17:08 – 24:00

    Coach Gordon tells a rowing story

    1. SS

      Can you tell me a story about one of your rowers that you have learned something about yourself as a person, as a coach, as a dad, as a, you know, as a husband, that you learned from one of these teenagers?

    2. GS

      [chuckles] Um, sure. I, um... So selection for the, for the top boat is, that's always very-

    3. SS

      Is that like varsity?

    4. GS

      It's called the varsity boat, but typically the whole team is the varsity team. But within a team, and this is true on the collegiate level as well, there's, there's tiers of boats. And depending on the size of the team, you could go, you know, five or six boats deep. And we have about four, uh, four eights worth of, of guys. And so there's obviously a selection for the, for the top boat, which, which is gonna compete against other teams' top boats.

    5. SS

      Top boats, yeah.

    6. GS

      When I first came into it and I was kind of doing a, a togetherness sort of right seat, left seat thing with the, with the, uh, outgoing coach, and I would sit in the launch during practice, and I didn't say much. I would just sort of observe.And it was very clear to me in, in the first week that I was watching this who the top rowers were. With the exception of maybe one guy, I could tell you who, who the top eight guys were.

    7. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. GS

      And the selection for that was important because about a month after I took over, there was a, there's a big race in Boston called the Head of the Charles.

    9. SS

      Oh, yeah.

    10. GS

      And it's a huge thing because you can only take one boat. It's gonna be the top boat, and the athletes have to fly across the country. I mean, we were coming from San Diego, so, so it's a big deal. And I had to name that boat about 48 hours after I took the job. [chuckles]

    11. SS

      Mm.

    12. GS

      Which, like I said, wasn't difficult to see, but the question in the back of every coach's mind is, is that really the right combination?

    13. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    14. GS

      And are they all sitting in the right seats? 'Cause the, the order matters. So we go to that race, and we did well. And we came back, finished out the fall, and now we're into the spring, the spring racing.

    15. SS

      Mm.

    16. GS

      And so there's still the, the question of who's in this top boat. It was the same eight guys as, who, who went to Boston in the fall, but I wasn't convinced. And so I took one guy out, and I swapped him with a younger guy. He-- the guy I took out was a senior. Um, great kid. I swapped him with a sophomore.

    17. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. GS

      Young guy. And the boat did well. They won. They, they went to a race up in Long Beach, and they, they won, uh, handily against their competition. And what I observed in this young man when I took him out of the boat was he went through-- And I've seen SEALs do this. He went through, uh, this sort of emotional rollercoaster. At first, he was really angry, and then he was kinda sad, and then he was a bit isolated. And then finally, I, I said to him at one point, I said, "Listen, your job right now is to make whatever boat you're in the fastest boat that, that is possible. So like in, right now you're in this boat."

    19. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    20. GS

      And I've always made it clear to these guys that nothing's permanent. No changes are permanent. Everyone has an opportunity to compete and, and to prove themselves, you know, at least worthy of, of a seat race-

    21. SS

      Mm-hmm

    22. GS

      ... um, like I mentioned before about, you know, determining who, who can make the boat go the fastest. He didn't say much in that conversation. He just kinda nodded his head. That was the end of, of practice that day. We went on a couple more weeks, and I watched this kid every single day-

    23. SS

      Mm

    24. GS

      ... come in and work. I mean, n- there was no practice that was off. There was no practice that was a, a, "Hey, I'm not really feeling well today. I'll just pull lightly." You know, there was nothing like that.

    25. SS

      Mm.

    26. GS

      And this kid attacked everything.

    27. SS

      Mm.

    28. GS

      And I quietly observed this. Two or three weeks later, I mean, I was convinced he was, he was the right guy for the boat, and, and he's back in there now. So, you know, what did I learn from, from this? I see things like that, and it's constant reminders every day of what I loved about the SEAL teams, what drove me-

    29. SS

      Mm

    30. GS

      ... to get there.

  5. 24:00 – 29:07

    The culture of SEAL Teams

    1. SS

      If the Navy called you and said, "We're looking for somebody to coach SEALs to do..." doesn't matter what.

    2. GS

      Mm.

    3. SS

      Would you entertain the job if it meant leaving the kids?

    4. GS

      Oh, if it meant leaving them, um, [chuckles] that's not... See, thanks for adding the, [laughs] the twist at the end there. Um, I don't know. I, I, I really love coaching-

    5. SS

      Yeah

    6. GS

      ... in general.

    7. SS

      Yeah.

    8. GS

      As I got older in the SEAL teams, I spent a lot of my time mentoring and, and coaching the younger guys. In fact, just a, a week ago, some guys who are working through some mission planning stuffIt was a guy who I had mentored a few years ago, who's now in charge of some others and wanted me to come back and help out. And, and I was overjoyed that, that I got the call and, and I went, I went down and spent my days-

    9. SS

      But you didn't answer the question

    10. GS

      ... doing that. [laughs]

    11. SS

      [laughs]

    12. GS

      I c- I don't know that I can answer that question. [laughs] Um-

    13. SS

      It would be a torturous decision.

    14. GS

      It would be a torturous decision, yeah, because I still have a deep affection for the SEAL community and, and, you know, at the drop of a hat would, would do that.

    15. SS

      You demystify, I think, people's stereotype of a SEAL, you know?

    16. GS

      [laughs]

    17. SS

      No, I think you do.

    18. GS

      Does that mean I don't seem like one? [laughs]

    19. SS

      I think if people, if people take what they know from the television and from movies and from books and from some of these larger than life personalities who, like, used to be SEALs and now they're, you know, whatever they're doing now, you are, um, not like that. Yeah, I think if people met you, I don't think that that would be their... They wouldn't label that stereotype on, on you. I think it's one of the things you and I connected on very early on, which is there's a, but a humanity that, that you bring to the leadership and that you bring to what it means to be an officer in the SEALs, that it's not just about grit and brawn and, you know... Like, those things matter. I, I... [laughs] You're very brawny.

    20. GS

      Well, Simon.

    21. SS

      You're very brawny. [laughs]

    22. GS

      [laughs]

    23. SS

      But you've said it, you've said it 1,000 times, which is it's n- you have to be strong. You don't have to be the strongest. You have to be fast. You don't have to be the fattest, fastest. You have to be a good shot. You don't have to be the best shot. You've said that 100 times.

    24. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    25. SS

      And the guys who compete only to be the best, the hardest, the fastest, they miss the plot. And th- there's a, there's a culture to the team, and I think people, when they think of SEALs, they think of BUD/S, which is partially brawn, but it's also a mental game.

    26. GS

      Yes.

    27. SS

      That some of the strongest guys fall out, and some of the scrawny guys make it through.

    28. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. SS

      Are they more like you, or are you in the exception to the rule?

    30. GS

      [laughs] I don't think I'm an exception. [laughs]

  6. 29:07 – 30:48

    Different types of grit

    1. GS

      Yeah.

    2. SS

      You know?

    3. GS

      I suppose.

    4. SS

      That's not your lane.

    5. GS

      [laughs]

    6. SS

      It's somebody else's lane, and, like, my lane is not your lane. Like, I've hung around with, with SEALs. Uh, there's no way... I definitely don't have the physical fortitude to get through BUD/S. I know that. I don't have the mental fortitude to get through BUD/S.

    7. GS

      [laughs]

    8. SS

      You know? I'm, I couldn't do it. But I still get along with them because they, the, I, I relate to them culturally.

    9. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. SS

      Like, the S- the SE- they don't look down on me because I don't have the grit or the stick-with-it-ness, but they, they... because I connect with them culturally and understand the culture of the teamwork and the togetherness and the love-

    11. GS

      Yeah

    12. SS

      ... um, you know, I've been very grateful that I've been sort of accepted in, accepted in when I went to visit.

    13. GS

      But also it's important to note, I mean, I, I would-

    14. SS

      [laughs]

    15. GS

      ... I would tell you that I don't, I don't have the grit to do what you do. I don't. And, and, and I think this-

    16. SS

      Wait, give me... Wait, wait, wait. What, what grit do I have that you don't have?

    17. GS

      I, I really don't think so. I, I-

    18. SS

      Well, I would, no, I mean, specif-

    19. GS

      ... would never wanna write a book.

    20. SS

      Oh, that's pretty awful. [laughs]

    21. GS

      I would never wanna do that because I just... It's, that sounds to me like I'm back in high school typing away at an, at an essay, and I've got a deadline and I've gotta get it done, and that, that was hard. That, I don't wanna do that again, and writing a book just sounds like it-

    22. SS

      But I'll call-

    23. GS

      ... takes grit that I don't have

    24. SS

      ... I'll call bullshit, right?

    25. GS

      [laughs]

    26. SS

      Because you did many things that you did not wanna do, including sitting in cold surf arm in arm with, you know, potential SEALs.

    27. GS

      But there was-

    28. SS

      And you did things once you were a SEAL that you didn't wanna do because it was justIt was not fun at all, but you did it because there was a reason that you were doing it. There was a reason to

  7. 30:48 – 33:08

    Why Simon hates writing books

    1. SS

      put up with it.

    2. GS

      Sure.

    3. SS

      I don't enjoy writing books. I enjoy moments of it.

    4. GS

      [laughs]

    5. SS

      But as a whole process, I, it works to all of my weaknesses. Like, I like working in groups. I have to work by myself.

    6. GS

      Yeah.

    7. SS

      I like short and fast. It's long and slow. I like to be an instant expert. It's a torturous you're re- reminder of what an idiot you are-

    8. GS

      [laughs]

    9. SS

      ... you know, the whole time. It plays to all my weaknesses, and the reason I do it is not for the joy of writing. There are many people who have the joy of writing and are good at writing books and churn them out.

    10. GS

      Yeah.

    11. SS

      I'm not that guy. I, I write the books that I write because I get to the point where I have an idea set that I need to share, and I put up with it for that, you know, one year or two years, however long it takes me to write the book.

    12. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SS

      I put up with it because I'm... The work, if I can get it out there-

    14. GS

      Mm-hmm

    15. SS

      ... will have a greater impact, and then I'll be done. It is finite, thank goodness. I'll either succeed or I'll fail, but there's a beginning, middle, and end. So I know, I know that. It's not gonna be forever. And I put up with it because, because there's a higher reason to, which is no different to... And I bet if you, if you had an idea set or you had a, a reason or a calling or somebody was pushing you, I think the reason most people don't have the grit is because their ideas generally, they're like, they're good ideas, but they're not ideas that people are begging for.

    16. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. SS

      So the only reason I wrote a book is because my early work, people kept saying, "This is so helpful to me. Can you help my friend? This is so... Simon, can you please write this down so I can give it to somebody else?"

    18. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. SS

      Not my desire to write the book. And you get to the point, and you're like, "I can't talk to everybody and meet everybody, but if I wrote this down, then I could talk to everybody's friends."

    20. GS

      No, that makes sense.

    21. SS

      Right.

    22. GS

      That's a very rational approach, and, and the grit follows.

    23. SS

      The grits follow, so the grit follows. And so I think, I think, I think you'd surprise yourself, probably like you surprised yourself at BUD/S.

    24. GS

      Well, n- well, no. So I was able to tap into grit to get through that because I saw a community and a brotherhood that I wanted to be a part of, and I was willing to pay the price of admission. You saw a message that you needed to get out-

    25. SS

      Yeah

    26. GS

      ... and you were willing to pay the price of admission-

    27. SS

      Of admission, yeah

    28. GS

      ... to get there. That's the-

    29. SS

      It's a great paradigm

    30. GS

      It's the same grit.

  8. 33:08 – 34:58

    Ad with Authenticity: True Classic

    1. SS

      Today's episode is brought to you by True Classic, and this ad that you're about to hear isn't really like a normal ad. I sat down with Ryan, their CEO, and we had a conversation about his journey, about the lessons he's learned, so that we could use some of those clips to share with you. We call it an ad with authenticity. [swoosh] Stability kills the entrepreneur.

    2. SP

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SS

      So it sounds like what you've done is that you've injected the chaos, which is the speed, into your business so that the only option available for those who will thrive there is creativity.

    4. SP

      Mm-hmm. Creativity's a huge component of it, and just being a creative, it was, to me, one of the most important parts of standing out in such a boring, archaic industry.

    5. SS

      Yeah.

    6. SP

      Where do I even begin?

    7. SS

      Yeah.

    8. SP

      You know? How do I infuse comedy into T-shirts? How do I infuse wholesome content? How do I kind of, uh, show people what we care about and how we make an impact for people? How do we get that across so that people understand our why and what's important to us as a culture?

    9. SS

      But also, somebody can come up with an idea and go, "I think we should do this," and you'd be like, "I think it's a terrible idea. Try it." Like, I have to believe that you'll say that. Like-

    10. SP

      Oh, yeah

    11. SS

      ... you may disagree with it, but, but this is what you're, what you're doing that I think is really important and what I'm learning is so often in businesses of every size, there's eventually one person who is the idea killer. "I don't like it." It could be for objective or subjective reasons.

    12. SP

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SS

      "I don't like it, it'll never see the, the light of day." Your mentality is, "I don't like it. Let's try it."

    14. SP

      That's exactly right, even if it's risky, by the way.

    15. SS

      So your willingness-

    16. SP

      And a lot of times it is

    17. SS

      ... your willingness to be proven wrong is part of the magic, 'cause you don't think you have a lock on ideas or decisions. It's the iteration and allowing anybody to have an idea and l- and the merit of the idea will be proven by the market, not by some executive. [ding]

  9. 34:58 – 39:52

    Why people quit BUD/S (SEAL training)

    1. GS

      I think we were talking, or maybe it, it was someone else I was speaking with, about quitting, about quitting BUD/S, and why do people quit BUD/S? You know, it takes... In these days, before it was kinda like you, you signed up and, and they said, "Oh, are you sure you wanna do that? Okay, yeah, sure," and you, and you go. Nowadays, the guys who, who find themselves to BUD/S have gone through a lot of barricades to get there. So when they finally show up and they quit, it begs the question, "Then why would you quit?" And I, and I, I've always said that I think it's because they're not being honest with themselves about what they want.

    2. SS

      Mm.

    3. GS

      It's not just about sitting in cold surf or being uncomfortable. Yeah, that's what you have to do to get through it. And this is the other thing is people ask me sometimes, I've, I've had a, a question about this recently. They said, "You must have had a really compelling reason to wanna be a SEAL." And I said, "Well, m- I just wanted to be a part of the group." And they said, "I don't buy that." I was like, "No, I just wanted to be a part of the group. It was a pretty compelling reason." [laughs] And they said, "Well, you know, but to go through all that..." And I said, "That's just what someone else decided was-"

    4. SS

      The price of admission

    5. GS

      ... the price of admission.

    6. SS

      Yeah.

    7. GS

      That's just... And I said, "What, what is it? Six months? Ugh, okay, that sounds awful, but all right."

    8. SS

      That's the ticket price, yeah.

    9. GS

      That's the ticket. And, and so w- what enabled my success, and I think what e- what enabled anyone who gets through that program, is that they're honest with themselves about wanting to be a part of that group.

    10. SS

      So one of the guys... Okay, great. So take me through that story. So nowadays, the, the pre-selection is, you know, you have to be in certain physical shape, you have to pass all kinds of mental fitness barriers.

    11. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. SS

      You know, all of these things to even get to the place where you can even be a try-out for BUD/S.

    13. GS

      Right.

    14. SS

      What are they lying to themselves about? Like, what is the lie they're telling themselves? When they, you say they're not being honest about why they wanna be in the team, they, why they wanna, uh, wear that trident. Is there a common lie?

    15. GS

      Ye- maybe. And I think that it has a lot to do with whatever they perceive the status of, of having that title. I think that it might have to do with... And we're trying to put itself in the minds of somebody who would go to BUD/S and not q- and, and quit, right? I think that, y- you know, they, they look themselves in the mirror and they say, "I, yeah, I wanna be a SEAL." But they have no idea what being a SEAL really is.

    16. SS

      Mm.

    17. GS

      And they would laugh if I, if I could be there in that moment and explain. Like if, if I, if someone had told me prior to going to BUD/S, "Why are you doing this?" "Oh, okay, 'cause I wanna be a SEAL." "Okay, do you know what being a SEAL is going to involve? Being a SEAL officer, do you know what you're gonna be doing? You're gonna be on this computer program called Defense Travel System, and you're go- [chuckles] and you're gonna have to, and it's gonna freeze on you every three minutes."

    18. SS

      Win-

    19. GS

      And you-

    20. SS

      Windows 95

    21. GS

      ... and you, and it's in Windows 95. "And you're gonna have to do this by noon today, and you've gotta get a plane ticket. And by the way, you can only fly American Airlines. And then, oh, and you have to do that for your whole team."

    22. SS

      [chuckles]

    23. GS

      "And you have to get them all set and, and then, you know, report to the commanding officer that..." I'd be like, "What happened to the, to the, to the shooting and the blowing things up and swimming and diving and wh- what about that?" "Well, yeah, there's a little bit of that, too. But actually, you're gonna be..." I would've been like, "No way." [laughs]

    24. SS

      [laughs]

    25. GS

      "I don't wanna do this." [laughs] And, uh, so, so I-

    26. SS

      [laughs]

    27. GS

      So, you know, my motivation was not to be a SEAL, although this sounds very strange. My motivation was to be a part of the group, a part of the brotherhood.

    28. SS

      Yeah.

    29. GS

      I saw those guys and I said, "I wanna serve with those guys."

    30. SS

      Right.

  10. 39:52 – 1:09:47

    When leaders quit, what happens to a team?

    1. SS

      that I, I remember I went out to Coronado-

    2. GS

      Uh-huh

    3. SS

      ... and they let me be there for, uh, a, a portion of BUD/S to sort of, like, see it happening, which was amazing, and I see when they quit, they ring the bell.

    4. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SS

      And they put their helmet on the ground.

    6. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SS

      And as the weeks progress, you can count all the helmets of all the people who quit, right? And the thing that I thought was interesting was it was like onesies, twosies, you know, somebody quit, and somebody quit. But then when you, you can see in the helmets, like you see an officer's rank on that helmet.

    8. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SS

      And then immediately there's like three enlisted guys right after-

    10. GS

      Mm-hmm

    11. SS

      ... right after him who quit in quick succession.

    12. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SS

      Why is it? It's not a coincidence. Why is it that when an officer drops that im- that in quick succession, it's not onesies and twosies anymore, it's like three-

    14. GS

      Mm-hmm

    15. SS

      ... within, within a very quick period of time. Why is, why is that?

    16. GS

      Well, I think, I mean, there's the obvious, um, you know, you're put in a leadership position, um, as an officer through BUD/S, and w- like you or not, the guys, they see you as a leader. And if you're, if you are a good leader, and if you are well-liked, and if you are physically fit, and, and you're, and you're crushing the various events, and then you quit... And remember, age matters, too. So most, most officers are a little bit older-

    17. SS

      Mm-hmm

    18. GS

      ... going through BUD/S, and most enlisted guys are, are a little bit younger. Some of them are, you know, some of them are very young, 17 or 18.

    19. SS

      Mm.

    20. GS

      And most officers are, the young ones are 23, 24.

    21. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. GS

      So that, I think, plays a factor. And, and, you know, a young guy who's maybe on the fence about whether or not he can, he can do this, he can climb the mountain-

    23. SS

      Mm-hmm

    24. GS

      ... sees a guy who's older, fitter, stronger, charismatic, whatever, um, likable, he quits, and then it becomes this kind of like, "Oh my God, if he didn't make it, there's no way I can make it." Now, here's, this is an interesting one. If you've ever noticed, I don't know if you've had the opportunity to actually see the quitting in process, but if you've ever seen an officer quit and then nobody else quits for a while-

    25. SS

      Mm-hmm

    26. GS

      ... that officer made the right decision.

    27. SS

      Okay. Oh, interesting.

    28. GS

      Seen that before.

    29. SS

      Uneffective, in, in, in, uh, uh, uh, ineffective leader.

    30. GS

      Good riddance.

Episode duration: 1:09:48

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode -_JxptWbmUs

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

Add to Chrome