By playing, you agree to uListen's Terms and Privacy Policy and YouTube's Terms of Service.
Simon SinekThe Smell of Memory with scent designer Dawn Goldworm | A Bit of Optimism Podcast
Summaries, chapters, transcripts, and FAQs on this page are made by uListen, not YouTube.
Great conversations run long. Their best ideas don't have to.
uListen is free on iPhone, iPad, Android, Chrome, and Claude.
See howCHAPTERS
Jump to publisher timestampsChapter summaries
Scent designer Dawn Goldworm and the idea of “scenting a book”
Simon opens by framing smell as the sense most closely tied to memory, then introduces how he met Dawn and the unusual question he asked her: can a book be scented. They reveal that Together Is Better includes a scented page designed to evoke “the smell of optimism.”
- •Simon explains how he and Dawn met and how her branding-with-scent presentation sparked his curiosity
- •They describe the decision to scent Together Is Better and keep it as a surprise for readers
- •Dawn characterizes the created scent as “the smell of” Simon’s personality and optimism
What a “nose” does: perfumery career paths and Dawn’s early work
Dawn explains what it means to be a “nose” and the different directions scent professionals can take beyond fine fragrance. She and Simon discuss her background creating widely known mass-market fragrances and how flavor creation overlaps with fragrance work.
- •Dawn outlines categories: fine fragrance, ancillaries (body wash/shampoo), home care, and flavor creation
- •She describes working at Givaudan and creating fragrances for well-known names and brands
- •Simon reflects on how the job is both traditional (perfume) and surprisingly broad (taste/flavor)
From art history to olfactory psychology: why she moved into scent branding
Dawn recounts her path from studying art history and art business to being tested for an innate sense of smell and training in perfumery. She explains how curiosity about scent psychology and consumer identity led her to build a business case for scent as a brand touchpoint.
- •Dawn describes discovering her ability through “nose testing” and the training required to develop it
- •She pursued research into psychology, sociology, and behavioral aspects of scent while working and studying
- •She proposes scent as a way for brands to build emotional bonds similar to skin, baby, and home associations
Why smell triggers memory so fast: the limbic ‘superhighway’
Dawn explains how smell differs neurologically from other senses, describing a direct route to the limbic system. She argues this is why smell so reliably evokes emotion and memory, and she positions her work as creating “emotional resonance,” not just fragrance.
- •Other senses pass through multiple neural pathways, while smell reaches the limbic system directly
- •Dawn links early-life experiences to lifelong “olfactive memory,” especially from before birth through childhood
- •Simon shares an example of being instantly transported by a scent that reminded him of his grandparents’ house
Brand loyalty through scent—and the question of manipulation
The conversation shifts from personal memories to commercial applications, with Dawn describing how scent can reinforce positive experiences and drive return behavior. Simon questions whether the practice is manipulative, and Dawn frames it as simply how conditioned smell works.
- •Dawn says scent can create loyalty by reinforcing emotional memories tied to a brand experience
- •They discuss how a scented product at home can trigger thoughts of returning to a store
- •Dawn emphasizes conditioning: reactions depend on culture, generation, and environment
Cultural and generational conditioning: why lavender relaxes some people, not all
Dawn explains that common assumptions about “relaxing” scents vary widely across cultures because the associations are learned early through products and environments. They explore how these associations change by region and over time as materials and products evolve.
- •Lavender’s calming association is described as culturally specific, not universal
- •Dawn contrasts regional baby-product traditions (e.g., orange blossom in parts of France)
- •Generational shifts: wood-to-plastic toys changed what “childhood” smells like for different cohorts
The science of “new sneaker smell” and the mystery of leather
Dawn breaks down why new sneakers smell the way they do—volatile molecules from adhesives, materials, and packaging. She challenges assumptions about leather’s natural smell, explaining it’s treated and often built via accords rather than a single “leather” ingredient.
- •“New sneaker smell” comes largely from off-gassing volatile molecules, plus cardboard and plastics
- •Dawn explains leather is treated to avoid smelling like a dead animal
- •They discuss “leather” as an accord (a constructed combination), not a single raw ingredient
Accords as chords: how perfumers layer notes into a ‘symphony’
Using music and art metaphors, Simon and Dawn unpack how complex scents are composed from ingredients into accords. Dawn notes the palette of usable ingredients has changed over time and describes why consistency and sourcing matter in fragrance creation.
- •Accords are compared to musical chords: ingredients (notes) combine into recognizable structures
- •Simon draws parallels to primary colors and musical notes as building blocks for creativity
- •Dawn describes the industry’s ingredient palette shrinking and the need for consistent smelling materials year over year
How Nike used scent: recreating sport memories and the “smell of Nike”
Dawn details a multi-year challenge: creating a Nike scent that works across cultures and a broad target audience. She describes building inspiration through the smell of sport—soccer cleats in dirt, warmed court materials, sweaty gym rubber—and combining them with the recognizable Air Force 1 note.
- •Nike’s challenge: a global audience, yet designed around a youthful target across countries
- •They recreated sport-specific smells (dirt/grass, oily basketball, gym sweat on rubber, skidding sneaker scent)
- •Dawn describes Nike using scent in labs, private spaces, and even items like shopping bags and shoelaces
The one universally loved smell and the one universally hated smell
Simon asks about universal preferences, and Dawn identifies vanilla as globally liked and the smell of a decaying human body as universally repellent. They discuss why many other “bad smells” are still culturally conditioned and how extreme odors have been used in military contexts.
- •Dawn says vanilla is universally liked because of its link to vanillin in breast milk and formula
- •She says the universally hated odor is a decaying human body, producing a visceral reaction
- •They discuss olfactory training for exposure and the evolution of “stink bomb” concepts and odor-based tactics
Personal smell stories: skunks, cows, garbage, and how environment shapes reaction
Simon shares a childhood story about scratch-and-sniff skunk stickers that made real skunk smell feel comforting later. Dawn reinforces how rural vs urban living changes what people consider normal or offensive, returning to the theme that most reactions are learned.
- •Simon’s skunk story illustrates how early associations can override typical disgust reactions
- •Dawn explains how rural familiarity can make animal manure nostalgic while urban dwellers may recoil
- •They reiterate that apart from the two extremes (vanilla and decaying body), preferences are mostly conditioned
Designing cross-cultural signature scents: ‘doors’ that lead to a brand’s core emotion
Dawn explains why unfamiliar smells can be rejected if people lack early-life associations, and how she designs around that. She describes creating a pathway of recognizable elements that help different audiences feel comfortable enough to reach the intended brand signature and emotion.
- •Dawn says smells without early-life references are often pushed away rather than embraced
- •She describes a design metaphor: creating multiple familiar ‘doors’ that lead to the signature at the end
- •The goal is reaching the brand’s emotional core and loyalty without alienating different groups
Scenting luxury experiences: Porsche launches in the Middle East and Valentino stores
Simon asks about brands she can discuss, leading to stories from automotive and fashion work. Dawn explains the challenge of scenting an environment in the Middle East where attendees are heavily perfumed, and she describes Valentino’s scent concept as rooted in Rome’s contrasts—beauty and grit, spirituality and sensuality.
- •Porsche launch challenge: making a scent stand out in rooms full of strongly perfumed attendees
- •Dawn describes choosing a distinctly Western profile (clean woods, bright citrus, aromatic notes) to differentiate
- •Valentino store scent is tied to Rome’s history and contrasts, developed with the creative directors’ vision
How ‘the smell of optimism’ was built for Together Is Better—and why brands ignore smell
They revisit the scented book and Dawn explains her interview process: mapping brand identity through color, texture, shape, emotion, and personal smell memories. Dawn also argues brands often neglect scent because people lack language for smell, and because decision-makers default to rational frameworks.
- •Dawn describes the rub-and-sniff technology and how the scent was designed to last for years
- •Her process includes color (orange), texture (new Mac and worn-in leather), shape (hand-drawn circle), and optimism as emotion
- •She says most people map scent to color similarly worldwide, and argues smell is overlooked because it lacks shared language and boardrooms prioritize rationality
Headspace technology and the ‘actual smell of money,’ plus Dawn’s hope-focused goal
The conversation turns to banks and “headspace” capturing—sampling volatile molecules around an object to recreate its smell. Dawn describes what was found when testing a dollar bill’s odor, then closes with what she most wants to create: scents that help people feel joy, comfort, and safety, including work aimed at children.
- •Dawn explains headspace technology for capturing and reconstituting the smell of an object
- •She describes the headspace results of a dollar bill and what it smelled like to them
- •She shares a broader creative aim: making scents that help people find comfort and joy, including a children-focused scented book project
Publisher timestamps
- 0:00Life as a nose
- 5:23The link between smell and memoryRead this chapter
- 12:29Creating fragrances with accords
- 15:25How Nike uses scentRead this chapter
- 19:17One smell we all love and one smell we all hate
- 26:04How to scent Porsche, Valentino, and Simon’s bookRead this chapter
- 38:43The actual smell of money
