Thinking About Thinking with Brené Brown and Adam Grant | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Simon Sinek 0:00 Every now and then, Brené Brown and Adam Grant and I like to get on a podcast and just talk, fight, bicker. We do all those things. And so this is one of those times. And like every time, I learn something about myself, and I learn something about the world. This is A Bit of Optimism. I always love it when the three of us get together because it's always a fun time. But here's where I wanna start.

Brené Brown 0:30 Oh, gosh.

Simon Sinek 0:32 What do you mean, "Oh, gosh"?

Brené Brown 0:34 I'm just, I'm gearing up. I'm gearing up.

Simon Sinek 0:36 No, this is, this is not a difficult one, and there's no right answer.

Simon Sinek 0:42 It's, I'm genuinely interested in this because I'm going through this right now, and I wanna get your input. I'm exhausted. [chuckles] I got a terrible night's sleep last night. Nothing bad, just, you know, it happens now and then. My brain is very slow right now, energy super low, too late in the day to drink coffee, so I can't jack myself up. And, like, literally, it went through my mind, I would like to reschedule this, but it takes us months to get our ca- our calendars to coordinate. So that wasn't an option.

Brené Brown 1:14 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 1:15 So I thought, you know what? I'm gonna just step right into it, and I'm very curious how you manage energy in times when you have none.

Adam Grant 1:24 Well, Simon, there is a, there is another option. You could go to bed, and then Brené and I will take over your podcast-

Brené Brown 1:29 [laughs]

Adam Grant 1:31 ... and talk about you.

Brené Brown 1:32 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 1:33 I mean, I'm game. [laughs] What do they call it when you take over somebody's, like, Instagram, that thing?

Adam Grant 1:41 A takeover?

Brené Brown 1:41 Takeover.

Simon Sinek 1:42 Oh, yeah. There you go. [laughs]

Adam Grant 1:44 That's how exhausted he is. He said the, he said the word and he didn't even recognize it. What do you call a takeover?

Simon Sinek 1:50 Look, ca-case in point. [laughs] So, so what do you do when that's your brain?

Brené Brown 1:59 I think at this point in my life, I listen to my body, and if there's just stuff I have to get done, I try to move through the day with a lot of grace for myself. And then I try to remember when I'm, when I'm ready to go and geared up and someone across from me is in that place, I try to remember to have grace there, too. It's a very big struggle for me. I don't like that in myself sometimes, and so I don't like it in other people sometimes. And so I'm, I'm really, I'm practicing a lot of grace around that, and I really try to listen to my body more than I ever have in my life. So I'll get home from what I have to do, and I'll get in bed.

Simon Sinek 2:40 So do you have a history of not listening to your body?

Brené Brown 2:43 Oh, yeah. Oh my God, yeah. I realized, wow, I grew up believing that the only good a body does is to move your head around.

Simon Sinek 2:52 [laughs]

Brené Brown 2:54 It just gets your brain, it just gets your brain to where it needs to be to do your work. So I think I'm trying to have a lot more grace for exhaustion in myself and other people.

Simon Sinek 3:06 Adam?

Adam Grant 3:08 Well, I think my surprisingly recent realization, I should've known this a lot earlier, but, uh, I think I, I always thought, "Well, I n- I need energy to take action." And I've realized that the causal arrow travels just as strongly in the other direction, that taking action creates energy.

Simon Sinek 3:26 Oh, interesting.

Adam Grant 3:27 So sometimes for me it's as simple as, like I'm kinda dragging.

Simon Sinek 3:32 Yeah.

Adam Grant 3:32 I know I always get a bit of a charge after a, a workout. What's gonna happen if I do 10 push-ups? Is that enough-

Brené Brown 3:37 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 3:38 Uh-huh

Adam Grant 3:38 ... to simulate the adrenaline of being on stage?

Simon Sinek 3:41 Oh, that's a good one. Well, I like-

Adam Grant 3:43 All right. So let's pause. Simon, drop and give us 10.

Simon Sinek 3:46 Yeah, I can't because I had surgery, and I can't do push-ups. [laughs]

Adam Grant 3:49 All right. Jumping. Can you do one-arm jumping jacks?

Simon Sinek 3:51 Maybe I can do jumping jacks. Yeah, I can do... I'll be right back. I'm gonna do, I'm gonna just do 10 jumping jacks. Stand by. I'm gonna be over here doing jumping jacks. Okay. You'll hear them.

Brené Brown 3:58 Oh my God. He, he's really doing them, y'all.

Simon Sinek 4:00 I'm doing jumping jacks. Okay. All right.

Brené Brown 4:03 Watch your form.

Simon Sinek 4:04 Oh, God, now I'm exhausted.

Adam Grant 4:05 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 4:06 Um, uh, so okay, let's see how that goes. I'm realizing one of the things, there's two things I just learned in, in real time here that I think I'm gonna adopt again. One is I raised it at the beginning, not in the middle.

Brené Brown 4:24 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 4:25 'Cause I think sometimes we drag, we get insecure, we offer, you know, shitty answers, brain's not working. We say, "Sorry, I got a bad night's sleep." And I kinda like the idea of starting a meeting and saying, "Hey, I'm all, I'm all in. I'm gonna give you everything I've got. Just please," to your point, Brené, "just asking for just a little grace today. Bad night's sleep. Don't have to worry about me. Let's have the meeting." I think I like that, and I think the idea of asking for help, which is I'm not sure I can carry my-

Brené Brown 4:55 Huge

Simon Sinek 4:55 ... I'm not sure I can carry my full weight today. Can you help carry some of the, some of the weight on my back? Uh, which is kinda what we did here, and it was, it was spontaneous. And Adam, I think your thing of doing a little thing, I think b- all of these and, and having a little grace. This is very helpful. Thank you. I'm feeling quite a bit more energized as a result.

Brené Brown 5:17 And I didn't, I don't, it, it, I didn't miss the fact that you said you just had a, you, you had surgery, which will keep you from the planks or push-ups. But, like, I think it's very interesting. I would've never thought about this unl- if you would not have started there, so it's an interesting place to start. When I started doing a lot of ad- kind of consulting and advising with leadership groups during COVID-

Simon Sinek 5:40 Mm-hmm

Brené Brown 5:40 ... I told them that we were starting every meeting in our organization with a two-word check-in, and it was a very helpful way to see people as humans first during a really hard time. And I think one of the things I've grown very accustomed to, and I didn't even think about how much I took it for granted until right this second-

Simon Sinek 5:59 Hmm

Brené Brown 5:59 ... is that even when We have like really m- external meetings with lawyers who hate this question. Well, I'll say, "Can we start with a two-word check-in?" And so it's not surprising for me ever if I hear someone on my team say, "Anxious and really tired."

Simon Sinek 6:18 Mm.

Brené Brown 6:19 Or, you know, "Vacation brain" are my two words. We had a check-in yesterday that it was one of my favorites, the co-CEO of our organization said, "Duct tape and glitter." Like, and I knew exactly like we're holding it together, but barely. So I think those check-ins in the beginning-

Simon Sinek 6:36 Yeah

Brené Brown 6:37 ... are kind of grace generators.

Simon Sinek 6:39 You know, it's such, it's such a good strategy because what it allows for is it creates a safe space for, and especially the person who's leading the meeting, 'cause they have to lead by example, right? Whether-

Brené Brown 6:50 Yeah

Simon Sinek 6:50 ... especially if they go first. It allows everyone to say how they actually feel. You can't get away with fine.

Brené Brown 6:56 No.

Simon Sinek 6:56 The biggest lie everybody tells. You can't get away with it. It's, it-- Starting out with a quick round-the-room check-in, you get to say, "Off my game, little tired." Uh-

Brené Brown 7:06 Yeah

Simon Sinek 7:06 ... or if you're the lawyer, "Time and money." Uh-

Brené Brown 7:09 [laughing]

Simon Sinek 7:12 [laughing]

Brené Brown 7:13 The first time I did it with lawyers, the first check-in was, "Two words? Uh, what's happening?"

Simon Sinek 7:20 Yeah. [laughing]

Brené Brown 7:22 [laughing]

Simon Sinek 7:23 Yeah. Is that technically three words? Do they charge for the contraction?

Brené Brown 7:26 Oh yeah, for sure.

Simon Sinek 7:28 Uh-

Brené Brown 7:28 Only if it, only if it was material.

Simon Sinek 7:30 But I, I mean, but I have to believe, and I think, I remember we were really good at this during COVID, and I think the practice has, has faltered. COVID was a slightly more human time. People welcomed it. You know, lawyers even. [chuckles]

Brené Brown 7:44 For sure. And I think if for me, I, this is what I tell leaders all the time, they're scared to actually know often what people are feeling-

Simon Sinek 7:53 Yeah

Brené Brown 7:53 ... because they don't know what to do with it.

Simon Sinek 7:55 Yeah.

Brené Brown 7:56 And so if Adam says, uh, "Anxious and overwhelmed," then I just say, "Thanks, I'm, appreciate you sharing that. That's a brave thing to share. Simon, what's two words for you?" And I just keep going. But then after the meeting, it gives me an opportunity to say, "Hey, can we jump on Zoom for a second? I just wanted to check in about your, your check-in." Yeah. "How are you?"

Simon Sinek 8:18 And the leaders, there's, the leader has no responsibility to fix it in the meeting, just to hold space for it, just to allow it.

Brené Brown 8:23 And, yeah. And then, then my favorite follow-up question, which I think resonates with a lot of folks that we work with, is when I talk to Adam, what I would ask is, "What does support from me look like today?"

Simon Sinek 8:37 Mm.

Adam Grant 8:37 Such a great question. You know, it's-- [chuckles] I'm just reflecting on a meeting I was in a while back when the leader looked at somebody who looked a little bit down and said, "You know, you just, you look really mad or upset, and it's kinda bumming me out."

Brené Brown 8:55 Oh my gosh. [chuckles]

Simon Sinek 8:57 Oh no. Did you, do, you in the-

Brené Brown 8:59 That's hard

Simon Sinek 8:59 ... you, you were in the meeting?

Adam Grant 9:01 I was in the meeting. And-

Simon Sinek 9:03 And pl-play it out. What, what happened?

Adam Grant 9:05 Well, okay, so the, the leader happens to be an emotional intelligence expert.

Brené Brown 9:08 [laughing]

Adam Grant 9:12 No joke, no joke. But, but forgot that only one facet of emotional intelligence involves reading other people's facial expressions. Then there's a whole set of questions about what's an appropriate and helpful way to respond to those. And just obviously it was, it was kind of an all about me reaction. But, uh, so what happened next was the person got defensive and he said-

Brené Brown 9:36 Yes

Adam Grant 9:36 ... "No, I'm, I'm not, I'm not angry, but I am now." [chuckles]

Simon Sinek 9:39 Yeah.

Adam Grant 9:39 Like that was just my resting face. Uh, and it completely derailed the meeting.

Simon Sinek 9:45 Oh, I love that. I mean, I hate that it was derailed, but that, that I pr- appreciate the irony so, so, so much. But it also raises this question of self-awareness.

Brené Brown 9:53 I mean, that's it.

Simon Sinek 9:54 Um, you know? And, and I'm on this, uh, lately I've started sort of thinking about self-awareness, that self-awareness is actually, I don't know whether to call it a, a byproduct or result or it comes second, that you, it's hard to practice self-awareness without situational awareness. That self-awareness comes as a result of situational awareness, right? 'Cause it's very-- For example, it's very hard to be aware that I talk too much in meetings, right? The only way I'm gonna learn that level of self-awareness, that I keep interrupting everybody, is by watching the room that I keep seeing people go, "Uh, uh, uh, uh." Like, and I'm like, "Ah, shit, I'm doing all the talking." Right? So it's very hard to look internally because none of us are objective about ourselves, but it is much easier to look at people and read a room. To your point, Adam, this person, the [chuckles] emotional intelligence expert, may have awareness of their own emotional intelligence, but terrible at reading a room, which resulted in lack of self-awareness.

Adam Grant 11:00 This reminds me immediately of have you all ever gone through the reflected best self exercise?

Brené Brown 11:06 Mm-mm.

Simon Sinek 11:07 No.

Adam Grant 11:07 We should actually try this for a future podcast. It's one of my favorite exercises. It's, it's one of the rare ones that I love as much with, you know, with undergrads as I do with CEOs. Um, it was created by Laura Morgan Roberts and Jane Dutton and their colleagues. And it, it was, it was sort of a-- [chuckles] in some ways it was an alternative to the, the Gallup approach of assuming that people know what their strengths are-

Brené Brown 11:30 Yeah

Adam Grant 11:30 ... and saying, "Well, the, the real way to find out what you're great at is to look at yourself through the eyes of others who know you well." And so they created this exercise where they have you reach out to 15 to 20 people, and they ask you to pick some, you know, some colleagues professionally, some family members, some friends, and collect stories from each one of them about a time when you were at your best. And then all these wonderful stories about you come in, but you have some work to do. You have to create a portrait of the common themes and patterns across them, and that's your reflected best self-portrait. It's, it's a portrait of, of your strengths, um, kind of looking in a mirror. And what's so interesting about it is, um, in my experience doing it People can't anticipate what their strengths are in other people's eyes. And so it turns out we have positive blind spots, not just negative ones-

Brené Brown 12:18 Yeah

Adam Grant 12:18 ... uh, which is-

Simon Sinek 12:19 Yeah

Adam Grant 12:19 ... which is great. But also, so much of then the work that comes after it is not just knowing your strengths and using them more. Um, it's, Simon, exactly your point, it's situational awareness-

Simon Sinek 12:29 Yeah

Adam Grant 12:29 ... to say, "Okay, I have an awareness of now I have this capacity to do something, but I need to know when it's relevant and when it's not."

Simon Sinek 12:36 Yeah.

Adam Grant 12:37 Like, how many times have you both interacted with leaders who are known for charisma, and then they dominate the conversation, or they show up unprepared and it becomes a crutch? And they have self-awareness but no situation awareness to say, "Well, maybe actually this is a moment when I need to dial down my charisma and be a great listener." Um, and I, I just, I love the idea of, of suggesting that self-awareness is, is useless and maybe even counterproductive without situation awareness.

Simon Sinek 13:03 Yeah. Maybe even inaccurate.

Brené Brown 13:06 Yeah. I-- You know what I'm thinking? I'll be so curious to know what y'all think about this because I've just-- I've been spending a ton of time collecting data for this kind of mental toughness thing I'm trying to understand, 'cause I've been studying Dunning-Kruger a lot, this whole idea that this kind of cognitive bias that people who have deep mastery rate themselves lower on something than people who are not very good at things think they're much better. Just for the po- people listening, imagine, you know, imagine that you've been taking guitar lessons for six weeks and you hear an amazing riff from, you know, Slash, and you're like, "Oh man, I can totally play that," versus someone who's been playing for five years and listens to the riff and says, "Wow, there's six chord changes here. This is tough. I don't know that I would do it well in the beginning." So you have to have some set of knowledge, some level of knowledge to really be good at guessing how good you are at something. W- Is that a fair way to describe it, do y'all think?

Adam Grant 14:05 I, I just did a, a podcast with David Dunning where he corrected my, [chuckles] my description of the Dunning-Kruger effect, which-

Brené Brown 14:12 Tell me

Adam Grant 14:12 ... you would hope. No, he, he just, he-- I think what, what he was stressing was the, the famous finding is that the unskilled are unaware of how unskilled they are.

Simon Sinek 14:21 Yeah.

Adam Grant 14:22 But experts can be overconfident or underconfident, and it depends on sort of how you measure their, their accuracy and what the domain is. And I was like, "Oh, that, there's some nuance there that, that's kinda interesting." Um-

Brené Brown 14:34 There's much more nuance than I think the, the, the-

Simon Sinek 14:36 And, and there's a gender component-

Brené Brown 14:37 ... meme

Simon Sinek 14:37 ... and there's a gender component.

Brené Brown 14:39 Oh, um, yeah, for sure.

Simon Sinek 14:40 That's, I mean, m- you know-

Adam Grant 14:41 She says with great confidence.

Simon Sinek 14:43 [laughs]

Brené Brown 14:44 I do. I do. Um, I, I do say it with great confidence. Um, what I think is interesting is guess what the number one-- I'm gonna come back to this idea of situational awareness.

Simon Sinek 14:56 Yeah.

Brené Brown 14:56 But guess what the number one predictor variable is for mental toughness when I'm interviewing coaches, scouts, fighter pilot trainers, I mean, people who are in kind of mental... I don't think mental toughness is what we think it is, first of all. But guess what they, guess what they think the predictor is.

Simon Sinek 15:21 What they look for?

Brené Brown 15:22 Yeah, like one of the first things that they look for, because actually the majority of people who need people to have some level of-

Simon Sinek 15:28 Yeah

Brené Brown 15:28 ... mental toughness don't believe they can grow it in people-

Simon Sinek 15:31 Yeah. Um-

Brené Brown 15:32 ... because of this one predictor variable.

Simon Sinek 15:34 If I had to guess, I would say some form of humility.

Brené Brown 15:40 It's humility. So what I think is interesting is when I was looking at Dunning-Kruger and some of the studies that kind of overlaid that theory on top of their findings, it's very quick to say

Brené Brown 15:55 the solution to not overestimating your ability is humility. But I think a more accurate... I, I'm wondering, I'm curious if a more accurate antidote to overestimation or underestimation is a capacity for metacognition.

Simon Sinek 16:12 Define.

Brené Brown 16:14 I can think about my own thinking.

Simon Sinek 16:16 Okay.

Brené Brown 16:17 I can actually, like, I can be thinking about something and almost pull up and put a critical eye on how I'm thinking about something. And, and the reason I bring this up is I'm starting to believe that self-awareness, anticipatory awareness, and situational awareness-

Simon Sinek 16:35 Mm-hmm

Brené Brown 16:35 ... belong in a pot of metacognition.

Simon Sinek 16:39 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brené Brown 16:39 It's the ability to almost-

Simon Sinek 16:43 Think about the thinking

Brené Brown 16:45 ... think about the thinking. I, I don't know. What do y'all think? [laughs]

Adam Grant 16:50 The-

Simon Sinek 16:50 The, the-

Adam Grant 16:50 I love that

Simon Sinek 16:50 ... the, the humility thing makes total sense to me for a mental toughness because n- not only can I not do this alone is the bedfellow of I'll be there for them.

Brené Brown 17:04 Yes. Um-

Simon Sinek 17:05 Um, those things go together, right? Um, you can't, I don't think you can have one without the other. And the people who I find the most mentally tough, the people I know who by any definition they are tough, they are more afraid of letting down the comrades than they are of dying, and they are not afraid to ask for help. And I think it is the, it is the social animal in us that those who recognize that the human species did not survive as a lone hunter-

Brené Brown 17:37 Mm. Mm

Simon Sinek 17:37 ... a lone gatherer, [chuckles] a lone, a lone liver, a loner. We're not great white sharks. We're not built for that. I think those that have that kind of awareness, they are good examples of, of human beings, which is why they have toughness.

Brené Brown 17:53 Who's the lo- the loneliness researcher who sadly recently died from Chicago? John Cacioppo?

Adam Grant 17:59 Oh, Cacioppo.

Brené Brown 18:00 Cacioppo. He used to say something like-- The first time I heard it, I saw your face, Simon. Something like, "As a member of the social species"-

Simon Sinek 18:11 Yeah

Brené Brown 18:12 Success is not the ability to go alone. Success is measured by being someone on who others can depend.

Simon Sinek 18:22 Oof, so good. Adam, when you did that exercise of asking people, what did you learn about yourself?

Adam Grant 18:30 So the first time I did it, I was, I was in my first year of grad school. So I was-

Brené Brown 18:36 Oh, wow

Adam Grant 18:37 ... 21. And there was a part of me that rejected the exercise as it [laughs] be- because it started with the premise of going to other people and saying, "Tell me how great I am."

Simon Sinek 18:50 Yeah.

Adam Grant 18:52 Now, of course, behind that was, was the goal of trying to learn and use my strengths more often and more effectively. But it just wasn't the way that I wanted to approach some of the people who mattered to me.

Simon Sinek 19:04 Yeah.

Adam Grant 19:04 And so I actually flipped it.

Simon Sinek 19:06 Hmm.

Adam Grant 19:07 And I went to the people who I would have asked, and instead I wrote them each a story about a time when they were at their best.

Simon Sinek 19:14 Okay.

Adam Grant 19:14 And what I learned about that-

Simon Sinek 19:15 This, this was in the reflection part. [laughs]

Adam Grant 19:18 [laughs] Yes. Uh, yes, exactly. No. But it, it was actually, it was one of... I spent a full week, I did this over the, the holiday break, and I wrote a few people every day and told them each a story about a, a time when I, I really appreciated a way that they, they stood out or showed up. And I was blown away by how surprised people were to hear that I appreciated them in general, but [laughs] like how surprised they were at, at the specificity of the story. That the thing that mattered to me, they didn't even remember, or they sort of took it for granted as like, almost like, "Yeah, I hold the door for people." [laughs] Like it was-

Simon Sinek 19:55 Yeah

Adam Grant 19:56 ... it was just sort of trivial. And I guess what it, w- what reversing it taught me was we're inc- we're incredibly bad at expressing appreciation for the people who matter to us.

Simon Sinek 20:07 Okay. Love that you did that. Now, the second time you did it, what did you learn about yourself?

Adam Grant 20:13 [laughs]

Brené Brown 20:14 Yeah, 'cause what, what I'm getting over here is my, um, refusal to be vulnerability, vulnerable barometer is going off around-

Simon Sinek 20:22 Yeah

Brené Brown 20:22 ... changing it around.

Adam Grant 20:23 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 20:23 I recognize this is as, as uncomfortable-

Adam Grant 20:25 Yeah

Simon Sinek 20:25 ... as people telling, giving speeches about you at a big birthday-

Adam Grant 20:29 Yes

Simon Sinek 20:29 ... or at your wedding. And-

Adam Grant 20:30 Exactly. But, uh-

Simon Sinek 20:30 ... basically avoided that, you know, which I don't disagree with. It's awful. But so-

Adam Grant 20:36 Okay. I'll-

Simon Sinek 20:36 ... the second time, did you follow the rules?

Adam Grant 20:37 Yes. I'll tell, I'll tell you the second time, which is-

Simon Sinek 20:40 [laughs]

Adam Grant 20:41 ... one of, one of, one of the things I learned about my strengths in action was a lot of people had commented on my memory, and it was never something I'd given any thought. I, I just assumed that like the way that, you know, facts and sources stick in my brain, they stick in everyone's. And yeah, no, I, I now know this, right? [laughs] 'Cause I, I heard it a lot of times. But-

Simon Sinek 21:04 By the way, Adam, whenever I quote a study, I talk about the Department of They-

Adam Grant 21:07 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 21:08 ... 'cause they do all the study.

Adam Grant 21:10 You know, Sinek 2024 did that very effectively at a recent conference. But-

Simon Sinek 21:15 They did a study

Adam Grant 21:16 ... uh, I think- [laughing] No. Uh, but-

Simon Sinek 21:22 And the numbers are about this, but you'll get the point. [laughs]

Adam Grant 21:25 Yes, you will. Point was made. And, uh, it, it was actually really clarifying for me though, because it led me to say, "Okay, that means that, you know, one, one way I'm, I'm actually contributing to people when I share knowledge is I'm giving them a source they can look up, right? And I'm, I'm giving them some information they can follow the trail of. And so I wanna be much more intentional about how I do that and how I use that to try to help other people." And the, the concrete, I think the concrete effect it had on me was I had to go and, and teach my first, my first groups of MBA students, and I was really worried about building a relationship with them when I was basically their age. And-

Brené Brown 22:06 It's hard

Adam Grant 22:07 ... yeah. And it, and it was a, it was a really short class. And so I said, "Okay, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that memory skill and I'm gonna remember, I'm gonna memorize all their names and come into the first day of class already knowing something about them." And it completely changed the dynamic of our interaction. Um, you know, they were kind of surprised, and it was a way, it was a gesture for me to say, "Look, I might be really nervous in front of you all. I might not really be qualified to be here, but I put in a lot of effort to, to get to know you."

Simon Sinek 22:38 Mm.

Adam Grant 22:39 "And I wanna keep building that relationship." And I never would've done that if I hadn't gotten the strength feedback.

Simon Sinek 22:43 How did it make you feel when you asked 15 people to tell you something about yourself and they came back with, "You have a great memory"?

Adam Grant 22:51 Well, f- I mean, after I got over the awkwardness of asking them for the feedback.

Simon Sinek 22:55 Sure. Hard.

Adam Grant 22:55 I also, by the way, I, I managed that one by asking them also to tell me about a time when I was at my worst, which very few people were willing to do.

Simon Sinek 23:03 Oh, interesting.

Brené Brown 23:04 You are just not having it, are you?

Adam Grant 23:05 No. No.

Simon Sinek 23:06 That's very sweet.

Brené Brown 23:07 But, you know, you know, I, I have to say, like, I have to say that the memory piece does not surprise me. It probably doesn't surprise Simon at all. I would not categorize it like that, nor would I categorize how, what you took from it and applied to your first MBA course.

Simon Sinek 23:26 Yep.

Brené Brown 23:26 What I would say is under memory, because you can, you could leverage memory for a lot of different stuff. You could go in and say, "Hey, I'm gonna do this MBA class, and I'm going to razzle dazzle them with a lot of memorized facts." But I, I don't think it's, for me, I don't know that it's memory as much as, as it is deep thoughtfulness. You are not going to take credit for work that's not yours.

Simon Sinek 23:51 Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Brené Brown 23:52 You are always going to attribute where things belong.

Simon Sinek 23:56 Yep.

Brené Brown 23:56 And so I think if it was just memory, I think that's probably an, an easy handle to grab 'cause that's how it expresses itself. But I experience you, especially as a scholar-

Simon Sinek 24:07 Yep

Brené Brown 24:07 ... as a deeply thoughtful person around other people's work and the application of other people's work.

Adam Grant 24:16 Thank you.

Simon Sinek 24:17 A- and, and I'm gonna make you more-

Adam Grant 24:18 I'm trying really hard just to say thank you.

Simon Sinek 24:20 Yes. I mean-

Brené Brown 24:20 That's great

Simon Sinek 24:21 ... that's correct. Say thank you. And I'll-- I'm gonna double down on, on what Brené said. I said, "To come back to you with, with a skill doesn't help us understand who you are." Richard Nixon had a great memory, right? Apparently, his recall was astonishing. And I think what Brené said, which is it's not your skill of memory, it's the humility, it's the rigor, and it's also the ethics. That was a thing. Highly ethical.

Brené Brown 24:48 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ethical, yeah.

Simon Sinek 24:49 That's the thing I wanted to say-

Brené Brown 24:50 Yeah, agree

Simon Sinek 24:50 ... which is you are unbelievably ethical in your approach to your work, because y- you just think about the number of people that we work with that steal shit, hedge shit, bury shit, and, you know, some of it is blatantly unethical, some of it's borderline unethical, and some of it they get away with unless you, you're in the know. You are none of those things. Um, and I think it's-

Adam Grant 25:13 Thank you. This is, this is getting more and more uncomfortable.

Simon Sinek 25:15 I know, but that's-

Brené Brown 25:16 [laughs]

Adam Grant 25:16 Can it be over now?

Simon Sinek 25:17 Which is, which is why you broke the rules in the first place. So-

Adam Grant 25:20 I did

Simon Sinek 25:20 ... I think it's-- So your, you-- the skill you have is memory. The character you have is-

Brené Brown 25:26 Exactly

Simon Sinek 25:26 ... highly ethical, highly rigorous, and highly-

Brené Brown 25:29 Thoughtful

Simon Sinek 25:29 ... generous and thoughtful.

Brené Brown 25:30 Yeah. You're just thoughtful.

Simon Sinek 25:32 Yeah.

Brené Brown 25:32 'Cause I think a lot of people who appropriate people's work, it's thoughtlessness.

Simon Sinek 25:36 Or insecure.

Brené Brown 25:37 Yeah. But I, I think i- when it's not intentional, I think it's like d- it doesn't really matter. And you know-

Simon Sinek 25:44 Yeah

Brené Brown 25:44 ... it matters 'cause that's what you spend-

Simon Sinek 25:45 Yeah

Brené Brown 25:45 ... hours and weeks and years doing. So yeah, I, I'm with Simon. I second you, Simon.

Simon Sinek 25:51 This-

Adam Grant 25:51 Well, thank you. But I, [chuckles] I, f- I, I'm torn between two reactions here. One is let's not make this about me, and let's change the channel.

Simon Sinek 26:00 This is my podcast. I can make it about whatever I want.

Adam Grant 26:02 You're right. Okay.

Simon Sinek 26:03 [laughs]

Adam Grant 26:04 Well, Simon, you can, you can-

Simon Sinek 26:05 Today's episode-

Adam Grant 26:05 You can just-

Simon Sinek 26:06 Today's episode is about Adam Grant. Brené-

Brené Brown 26:08 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 26:10 ... what do you think about Adam Grant?

Adam Grant 26:12 [laughs]

Brené Brown 26:13 I'm support- I'm supporting Simon because he asked for some grace, so whatever he wants to do is where I'm going.

Simon Sinek 26:19 Hmm.

Adam Grant 26:19 All right. I-

Simon Sinek 26:19 There you go. There you go

Adam Grant 26:20 ... I'm willing to accept that. I, I will say then that, you know, if you insist on turning the spotlight on me, like I do want it to be balanced, right? I d- I don't... Look, I-

Simon Sinek 26:29 And now it's time for a commercial break.

Brené Brown 26:31 Oh, yeah.

Adam Grant 26:32 No. No, no. Let me-

Brené Brown 26:33 Shh. Hi, everyone. Wondering how to get the best ROI from your company?

Simon Sinek 26:37 [laughs]

Adam Grant 26:37 I hate you both.

Brené Brown 26:37 Let me introduce you to... [laughs]

Adam Grant 26:41 You are the worst adopted siblings I've ever had.

Brené Brown 26:43 [laughs]

Adam Grant 26:45 Worst.

Brené Brown 26:45 I, I-- look, Phineas, Ferb-- look, Phineas, Ferb wants to have his, his time with you, and as Candace, I'm just saying-

Simon Sinek 26:53 [laughs]

Brené Brown 26:54 ... you worry about, you worry about the time-space continuum, and I'll just... Yeah.

Simon Sinek 26:58 I'm looking forward to coming on your podcast, Adam, and you can make it about whatever you want. Um-

Adam Grant 27:02 Fair. But can I-

Simon Sinek 27:04 So-

Adam Grant 27:04 Can I-- Well-

Brené Brown 27:05 No

Adam Grant 27:05 ... I wanna react.

Simon Sinek 27:06 No, no. No, I'm changing the channel. Moving on. Got other things to talk about. Look, I got a whole agenda-

Brené Brown 27:11 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 27:11 ... got a whole agenda here f- list of questions right here. This-

Adam Grant 27:15 I was, I was just about to energize you. Really disappointing.

Simon Sinek 27:18 Oh, I'm energized.

Brené Brown 27:19 Oh, you're right. [laughs]

Adam Grant 27:21 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 27:23 So, so this is actually th- what we're actually talking about, the discomfort you have and the things that you learned, is actually how we do 360s.

Brené Brown 27:32 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 27:32 Um, which is we do 360s by what you do is you, you have to write three things about y- three specific examples about yourself where you believe you need the most work or, uh, where you have the biggest weaknesses. So three specific. Then you have to write three specific where you believe you've grown the most or three strengths you have. And, uh, then you give it to everybody to read b- before the meeting, and then when we come in for your 360, um, you have to read out loud your three weaknesses, and then anybody in the room can add to the list. And so you do the three negatives, the three weaknesses, and anybody can add to it. And then we do the three strengths, and this is to your point, Adam, to the, the study, and then anybody can add to it. And usually the tears happen the second part.

Brené Brown 28:22 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 28:22 And the room gets to tell you how great you are, and you don't realize how much you are helping other people. And that's becomes the aspiring stuff, which is, yes, you gotta work on your weaknesses, sure. We wanna see growth, but at the same time, you get to realize how magic you are, and you get to build on that stuff too. Uh, and it's a very similar exercise, and it's just as uncomfortable, but it's so rewarding.

Adam Grant 28:45 Well, what I, what I think is really powerful about that is when you give your, your self-analysis first, people are much more willing then to tell you-

Brené Brown 28:56 Mm-hmm

Adam Grant 28:56 ... what they really think. Constantinos Coutifaris, UT guy now, uh-

Brené Brown 29:01 Yeah

Adam Grant 29:01 ... and I, uh, did, uh, we studied this in the last few years, and we found that when leaders criticize themselves out loud, it boosted-

Brené Brown 29:08 Yeah

Adam Grant 29:08 ... psychological safety for their teams because they weren't just saying that they were open to feedback. They were actually proving they could handle the truth. And I-- so often when I've, when I've had people do this, um, the rest of the room is surprised.

Simon Sinek 29:19 Yeah.

Adam Grant 29:19 Like, oh, they already knew that. [chuckles] I'm, I'm, I'm not, you know, I'm not blindsiding them or attacking them. Um, and also they can see what you're aware of, and then they feel extra responsibility to point out the things you're not.

Simon Sinek 29:32 Yeah. I, I, I think that's good and true w- with a caveat, which is they, they have to, if, especially if it's a weakness, that's something they're struggling with. 'Cause I had a guy, n-not, he didn't, wasn't on our team. He was like, "So, uh, you know, full disclosure, I'm an asshole." I'm like, "That's not helping." Right? Like, he wasn't saying, "Look, I, I struggle with it. I've been called an asshole. I think I know I'm an asshole, and I, I, I'm, I'm working on it. I'm not there yet. I'm struggling with it." That I would have found gracious. But he sort of just declared it like it is what it is, and take it or leave it, and all that did was reinforce that he was an asshole. I didn't wanna work with him. Um, you know, there was no accountability in there.

Brené Brown 30:15 That, I mean, I think that's the That's just such a tap out

Simon Sinek 30:21 Yeah, it's bullshit.

Brené Brown 30:22 Yeah. It's, it's-

Simon Sinek 30:22 It's missing the point

Brené Brown 30:23 Yeah

Simon Sinek 30:23 It's missing the point of growth

Adam Grant 30:25 It's like the people who claim to be brutally honest as an excuse-

Brené Brown 30:29 Oh, God

Adam Grant 30:29 ... for being brittle.

Brené Brown 30:30 Yeah

Simon Sinek 30:30 Right. Exactly. You can be honest, you just don't have to be brutal. Just be honest.

Brené Brown 30:34 We have a really different way of doing it, which I'll be curious to see what you think about what it taps into and what it doesn't, what it misses.

Simon Sinek 30:41 Mm-hmm.

Brené Brown 30:42 Is we look at, back to metacognition, um, we look at three or four situations that are similar where an individual handed, handled things very well, and then in a similar situation where it was handled not well, what the consequences of handling it well were, and what the consequences of not handling it well were, in terms of putting people into fear, hurting people's feelings, stopping productive work, squashing innovation. And it's really, for me, it's been completely life-changing because I guess an assumption that's built into that is some choice. Um, but one thing it's, what it's helped me really realize when my peers will say, "Here's a situation where things got very difficult in a meeting and you absolutely made it worse. These are the specific behaviors you engaged in. You shut everyone down in the room. People got fearful. Your intensity was overwhelming. And here's a very similar situation where things got equally difficult-

Simon Sinek 31:51 Mm

Brené Brown 31:51 ... and you brought the room together within 10 minutes-

Simon Sinek 31:54 Mm

Brené Brown 31:55 ... and here's what you did, and here's how it affected us." And I guess the thing that's been different about do-- I, I kind of developed this way of doing it because I found it was organically how I was working with leaders-

Simon Sinek 32:07 Mm-hmm

Brené Brown 32:07 ... is understanding where the inflection point was in those choices, if they were choices, if they were conscious or unconscious choices, and that there are moments that we all get to as leaders-

Simon Sinek 32:23 Mm-hmm

Brené Brown 32:24 ... where we are very vulnerable, and what happens next really matters. And so, like, and I have learned such hard things about myself.

Simon Sinek 32:37 Like what?

Brené Brown 32:37 Because in every... Well, in every one of the scenarios where they said, "This is what, this is the situation. It was escalating. You made it worse. You hurt people. You shut down everything," or, "This is what was happening, and we don't know. It was a masterclass in watching you-"

Simon Sinek 32:58 Mm-hmm

Brené Brown 32:58 "... you know, infuse the room with accountability and safety." There was just one variable, and that is when I get afraid, when I get scared-

Simon Sinek 33:11 Wow

Brené Brown 33:11 ... I get scary.

Simon Sinek 33:13 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brené Brown 33:15 And so when those things are w- And so what I started to do as I was working with my coach, this is my disconnected body that just carries around my brain.

Simon Sinek 33:23 Yeah.

Brené Brown 33:24 Um, I started learning kind of what's h- what's happening in those seconds leading up to when I either make things worse-

Simon Sinek 33:34 Yeah

Brené Brown 33:34 ... or make things better.

Simon Sinek 33:36 As you're saying it, I'm going through this meta, I'm going through this self-evaluation myself a- as you're talking about it, and I'm thinking to myself, like, w- 'cause I like the comparison. I'm like, when is... I like this when I'm good and when I'm bad, right? And what's the, what's the, what's the delta, which I find really-

Brené Brown 33:50 In the same situation.

Simon Sinek 33:51 In the same situation.

Adam Grant 33:51 Yes.

Brené Brown 33:51 Holding constant. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 33:53 In the same situation. And my-

Adam Grant 33:54 It gives you so much agency.

Brené Brown 33:56 Yes

Simon Sinek 33:56 And I'm, and I just, and I just had an, an insight. I just had an epiphany f- because I'm... And it's when I ask questions, right? 'Cause I can ask questions and ooze of curiosity that makes someone feel important and special, and I can also ask questions in a way that makes people feel cornered, backed against a wall, scared, and, and cross-examined.

Brené Brown 34:19 I can't even make eye contact with y'all. [laughing]

Adam Grant 34:22 [laughs]

Brené Brown 34:23 It's-

Simon Sinek 34:23 Right?

Brené Brown 34:24 You just nailed it. Yes. It's, you know what they, you know what they, I came up with as my solution? This is basically if you did a qualitative analysis on holding context steady-

Simon Sinek 34:34 Yeah

Brené Brown 34:35 ... and then my different behaviors, it was curiosity versus declaration.

Adam Grant 34:40 I, I, by the way, I mean, the, the parallels are striking here. Like, my, my version of that is am I arguing to win or am I arguing to learn?

Simon Sinek 34:48 There you go. For me, the difference, it's, I think it comes in two forms. One is when I genuinely feel dumb, and I, I like being dumb. I like not knowing. Um, but when, but when, uh, somebody's talking about something that is, like, completely m- my insecure weakness, like, I'm not very good at numbers. I don't do finance. And so when somebody's telling me numbers and they're using all the financial jargon, like, I had a meeting with a financial advisor, let's just say it didn't go well, and he didn't feel good at the end. 'Cause he made me feel like a fucking idiot, and so I didn't-

Brené Brown 35:31 Yeah

Simon Sinek 35:31 ... understand what he was trying to tell me, and so I was asking-

Brené Brown 35:34 Yeah

Simon Sinek 35:34 ... questions legitimately to understand, right? Legitimately to understand, but it didn't come out well. The other one is when somebody is lying to me, and I'm asking questions to understand because the logic doesn't make sense, and so I'm going on a treasure hunting trip here. Like, it... I'm not gonna flat out say, "I think you're lying to me. These numbers don't make sense." I just start asking all the questions that reveal that there's no logic here until somebody says, "Okay, okay, I'm lying to you." [laughs] Um, those to me are the... And that one, that second one doesn't happen that often, thank goodness. But it has happened. But the first-

Brené Brown 36:14 Can I ask a question-

Simon Sinek 36:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Brené Brown 36:15 ... about the second one?

Simon Sinek 36:16 Yeah.

Brené Brown 36:17 Okay. So first of all, it's really interesting because when we were doing a study on shame, one of the biggest things that came up as a barrier to asking for help from a financial planner, a banker, a trusted friend or relative-

Simon Sinek 36:30 Yeah

Brené Brown 36:32 How so many people in that industry use shame as a proxy for power-

Simon Sinek 36:40 Yep

Brené Brown 36:40 ... and make you feel stupid about your money.

Simon Sinek 36:42 Yep.

Brené Brown 36:42 Like, I, I, I just fuck-- that's just ridiculous. Um-

Simon Sinek 36:45 Yep

Brené Brown 36:45 ... so I'm with you there. Let me ask you this. I, I'm just curious 'cause I think this might be for me, but I wanna know.

Simon Sinek 36:51 Mm-hmm.

Brené Brown 36:51 You said the second one was when you feel like

Brené Brown 36:54 you're, when you feel like you're being lied to.

Simon Sinek 36:56 Mm-hmm.

Brené Brown 36:57 How would you name the emotion that you feel when you think that's happening? So if you say to me, if you say to me, "Brené, that deliverable was super important"-

Simon Sinek 37:09 Yeah

Brené Brown 37:09 ... "and you know, it was time sensitive," and I said... I mean, this is gonna be very, it's g- this is gonna be much more blunt than nuan- nuanced-

Simon Sinek 37:16 Yeah

Brené Brown 37:16 ... way that people lie to us.

Simon Sinek 37:17 Yeah.

Brené Brown 37:17 But, and I say to you, "Oh, I emailed you. It must have not, um, I guess it didn't go through."

Simon Sinek 37:23 Yeah. It's a perfectly good example. Um-

Brené Brown 37:28 How do you feel?

Simon Sinek 37:29 Um-

Adam Grant 37:29 I'm trying so hard not to throw out a menu of possible emotions right now.

Brené Brown 37:31 Yes, don't do it.

Simon Sinek 37:32 No, no, no, I, I gotta struggle, I gotta struggle. Um, so I f- f- in that moment, I feel... I say alone. Alone is the feeling, but it's not in the sense of I'm by myself. It's the sense that I've lost my teammate.

Brené Brown 37:53 Is it grief?

Simon Sinek 37:54 Confusion.

Brené Brown 37:54 Disappointment?

Simon Sinek 37:55 It's closer to confusion.

Adam Grant 37:58 I wondered if it was betrayed.

Brené Brown 37:59 I wondered if it was betrayed too.

Simon Sinek 38:01 Oh, betrayed is quite good, but it happens, but it'll happen with strangers too, right? It'll happen with strangers. So for example, I'm in a restaurant and it's empty, and I go, "Can I sit at that table, please?" "I'm sorry, you're two people and that's a four top." Um-

Brené Brown 38:17 God

Simon Sinek 38:17 ... "Your restaurant's empty. Your restaurant's empty." You know, "Can I sit there, please? It's by the window." "I, I told you, you're two and I can't seat you at a four top." "How about this? If somebody comes in who's a four and you've run out of four tables, I promise I'll move without a..." Like, I, like it becomes, "Is that gonna work for you?" You know, like it becomes, I become a little bit difficult, and I think it's because-

Brené Brown 38:40 Yeah

Simon Sinek 38:40 ... I don't under- I don't understand the logic. I guess it goes back to the other thing, which is I don't understand. I don't understand the logic.

Brené Brown 38:46 Is it-

Simon Sinek 38:46 It's kinda like the other example

Brené Brown 38:47 ... is it that you don't understand or like, you know how we were w- how we were saying all these things about how we experience Adam as thoughtful and generous and-

Simon Sinek 38:58 That's, that's over now

Brené Brown 38:59 ... ethical. I know, but-

Simon Sinek 39:00 Yeah

Brené Brown 39:01 ... like the one way I would experience you-

Simon Sinek 39:03 Yeah

Brené Brown 39:03 ... Simon, is that you move through the world with such a deep hypothesis of generosity toward people.

Simon Sinek 39:11 Yeah.

Brené Brown 39:11 And I, I... You really, you really do move through the world in a, with a very generous assumption about people. And I wonder if people are shitty like that for no reason.

Simon Sinek 39:25 The, the, the... And I know the-

Adam Grant 39:26 Like it shakes your worldview.

Simon Sinek 39:27 I think maybe-

Brené Brown 39:27 Yeah

Simon Sinek 39:28 ... it does shake my worldview. The, there's probably... So it's not a betrayal of trust or a betrayal of, you know, confidence. It's a betrayal of worldview. Like you're, you're shattering my image-

Brené Brown 39:38 Yes

Simon Sinek 39:39 ... of humanity, and you're doing it-

Adam Grant 39:41 Yes

Simon Sinek 39:41 ... in a horrible way. [laughs]

Brené Brown 39:42 Yes, yes, yes.

Adam Grant 39:43 Okay.

Simon Sinek 39:44 No, I think there's a there there.

Adam Grant 39:44 Okay, I'm gonna do this. I, I can't resist.

Simon Sinek 39:47 I think there's a there there. I think there's a there there.

Brené Brown 39:48 I think there's a there there. I, I-

Adam Grant 39:50 There is

Brené Brown 39:50 ... I agree. Go ahead, Adam.

Adam Grant 39:52 So can I-- No, no, I just, I'm just thinking about, like, two psychologists, George Kelly and Jerry Clifton. Uh, Kelly would say that one of... I'm sorry, I can't resist.

Brené Brown 40:01 [laughs]

Adam Grant 40:01 Kelly would say that one of your core personal constructs has been violated. Uh, that the, the generosity of people is one of the fundamental lenses through which you view the world.

Simon Sinek 40:12 Yeah.

Adam Grant 40:13 And it, that's being challenged. Or, or Jerry would say, like, your primal worldview-

Simon Sinek 40:18 Yeah

Adam Grant 40:18 ... is that, you know, people are decent and kind to each other. Like, how, how dare you not operate by that?

Simon Sinek 40:23 Yeah. But the opposite is also true. When, when there's genuine curiosity, genuine curiosity shows up, there's a lot of empathy. So when somebody does violate that, you know, when I'm in that curious mode and not feeling backed against the wall in some way, shape, or form, you know, the end, the thought that goes through my mind is, "Holy cow, like, who's their leader that's putting ex- crazy pressure on them that they have no agency and they can't make their decisions themselves? You know, what, what's going on in their lives?" You know? Um, but you're right. I think it, it really upsets me that somebody thinks that they live in the world by themselves. It violates my view of, of, of... It's my, violates my worldview. Uh, as, as somebody said, you know, we live in the world. [laughs] It's like-

Brené Brown 41:12 Such a bummer sometimes.

Adam Grant 41:14 Yeah.

Brené Brown 41:14 I know.

Adam Grant 41:14 But I, I'm struck by... There's an exercise I do in class where I, I have students analyze what are the common patterns behind situations where they got angry, and consistently what comes out is that their values are under threat.

Simon Sinek 41:30 Yeah.

Brené Brown 41:30 For sure.

Adam Grant 41:30 And, and I think there's so much to be learned then from, okay, well, what are the values that have been threatened?

Simon Sinek 41:36 This is so good, 'cause if you ask someone, "What are your values?" And going back to the conversation some moments ago about, you know, uh, self-awareness, I'm not 100% sure we actually know what our actual values are, though we think we do. But to go to the, I think this line of questioning, Adam, is genius, which is when was the last time you got angry? Then I'll show you what your values are.

Adam Grant 42:03 Exactly.

Brené Brown 42:04 People are so shocked by their own values, and people want to... But people don't want them.

Simon Sinek 42:13 What?

Brené Brown 42:13 They want to orphan, they want to orphan-

Adam Grant 42:14 Orphan. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 42:14 Give an example of that. Give an example.

Brené Brown 42:16 They want to orphan them.

Simon Sinek 42:18 Give an example. Like-

Brené Brown 42:18 Or they-

Simon Sinek 42:18 ... I'm learning this value about my worldview, like, I'm okay with it.

Brené Brown 42:23 Okay. So what we do is we have a list, and there's, there's like, I don't know, 150 things on there. We just reverse engineering. So we started, this was the research that started like 15, 18 years ago where we, we found that some of the most transformational leaders really had two values. They didn't have 20. They had two.

Simon Sinek 42:40 Mm-hmm.

Brené Brown 42:40 And they had... A lot of things were important to them-

Simon Sinek 42:42 Yeah

Brené Brown 42:42 ... but there were really one or two where everything else was forged. And so they circle 15 or 20 and they're like, "We're not limiting it. We're not limiting it." And I said, "Which two here are essential to you getting out of bed, to you functioning?" And this is where they get super irate because they, the majority of them do not wanna take family out.

Simon Sinek 43:10 Oh.

Brené Brown 43:12 And so, like my two g- my two values are courage and, and faith.

Simon Sinek 43:16 Right.

Brené Brown 43:16 And, and I've really struggled for many years about curiosity as a value, but what I realize is that I'm my bravest when I'm curious. And so that curiosity for me requires a lot of courage.

Simon Sinek 43:29 Yeah.

Brené Brown 43:29 And so we do this exercise. So they come up with these two, and then they operationalize them into behaviors. Then they have to find indicator warning lights for misalignment from these. When have they stepped out of them? What do they feel in their bodies?

Simon Sinek 43:46 Yeah.

Brené Brown 43:46 When did they live into them? What did they feel in their bodies? And people are just really frustrated because when you know your values and you understand what-- And I don't think they mean anything. I feel the same way about corporate values. If they're not operationalized into observable behaviors, they're jack- they, they mean they're just bullshit to me.

Simon Sinek 44:06 Yeah, they're just writing on, just writing on the wall.

Brené Brown 44:08 Right. Yeah. And so once they see these values operationalized into behaviors, they go through like a, a Kübler-Ross grief thing where they're like, "Wow, have I been an asshole because I'm living outside of my values around this issue?"

Simon Sinek 44:27 Oh, that's so good.

Brené Brown 44:29 And I'm like, "I don't know. What do you think?" And they're like, "Yeah, I'm completely misaligned."

Simon Sinek 44:33 Oh, man.

Brené Brown 44:33 "Every, every indicator on the dashli- the dashboard is going off, but I keep showing up the same way."

Simon Sinek 44:40 Th- this is so good, and it goes back to the old thing, like we don't learn anything when things go right. We learn things when things go wrong, right?

Brené Brown 44:45 Oh, for sure.

Simon Sinek 44:46 It's like, you know, all of the, all the metaphors. You don't, you know, you can't judge a crew by how the ship performs in calm waters. You can only judge a crew by how a ship performs in rough waters, blah, blah, blah. You know, it's, it's the same thing here, which is things going wrong reveals. And I love this exercise of going through not when I nailed it, but when I got angry or frustrated. And the anger one is particularly interesting because I'm not a very angry person, but when I get angry, it's, it's... It hurts.

Brené Brown 45:17 When I hear your story about, you know, I, it, it reminds me of Stephen Covey, like, I don't... Was this book written like 30 years ago? "7 Habits"? I don't even remember. But like the guy who takes up two parking places or the person who's shitty on the train, and I remember that story he tells about being on the train and someone saying, "Wow, your kids are really out of control here." And the guy kind of looked at the guy who was being critical and said, "I'm sorry. We're on the way home from the hospital. My wife died a couple of hours ago, and I think my kids just don't even know how to show up right now." And I... It just reminds me so much of being in my values when people are not behaving as I need them to behave.

Adam Grant 46:10 I'm just struck, Brené. At first, I thought you were gonna tell us a story about people wanting to change their values once they discover they don't like them, and it's quite the opposite, right?

Brené Brown 46:19 Yes.

Adam Grant 46:19 That people are discovering their behaviors are not in line with their values.

Brené Brown 46:22 Yes. That's exactly right. That's the variable that moves.

Adam Grant 46:24 Yeah.

Brené Brown 46:25 And one of the, one of the most amazing processes that we use with teams is we have everyone write their name on a big Post-it, like one of the 11 by 17 Post-its, write their name, write their two values, and then everyone on the team fills out a sticky note with a story about when they saw that person living into their values and what it meant for them.

Simon Sinek 46:50 Yeah.

Brené Brown 46:50 And so, like everybody in our office has a big sticky note. I mean, I have mine on the side of a file cabinet that has my name, my values, and what it looks like from other people when they see me in them.

Simon Sinek 47:03 This, you know what this is also s- speaking to, which is when people make lists of like what's important to them in a relationship. Like what are the five values-

Brené Brown 47:11 Yeah

Simon Sinek 47:11 ... you want in your partner? Like what are the five, you know, like what, make a list of the things you want, and if you make the list, you'll get them, and blah, blah, blah, you know? And I've done these exercises, and I'm a, I'm a professional at failed relationships, by the way. Like I've taken the advice of people like write the 10 things that are n-non-negotiable in your partner, right? And I've done that. You can't-- First of all, I'm not getting all 10. Nobody ever does. Um, but I'm realizing from this exercise that what I need to do is I need to make that list two things. Like what are the non-negotiables that, that if this person doesn't have these two things, then no go. Because, and it goes to the, and it goes, it speaks directly to the executives that you're dealing with, which is we, we human beings are gifted with, with, uh, the remarkable ability to rationalize anything, you know? Uh-

Brené Brown 47:59 Oh, God, yeah

Simon Sinek 48:00 ... I can ration- I can rationalize how much I'm spending 'cause I can tell you how much I'm saving, you know? My favorite one is people who sell their company. Like they built good companies. They're like triple bottom line, take care of their people. They have a bazillion dollar exit, and they sold it to, you know, some awful private equity company who's m-milking it, destroying it, breaking it, and undoing everything. And then I say to these CEOs, "How can you say you wanted to build an impact company if you sold it to them? Why not take less money? Did you need 300 million? Maybe 250 was enough." Like, like, "You sold it to that company and they broke it. How can you call yourself an impact CEO?" And they can rationalize the shit out of it to make themselves feel better for taking the money And I think when you get it down to those two things, whether it's who do I sell my company to? Who do I date? You know, how do I lead? Who am I? I think I find this, I find this unbelievably powerful, the just two things.

Adam Grant 49:06 I, I think that makes so much sense. I mean, I, [chuckles] I, I think I'd be comfortable with three to five. Uh-

Simon Sinek 49:11 Yeah. [laughs]

Adam Grant 49:11 ... 10 is a lot. But, [laughs] but-

Simon Sinek 49:14 But two-

Adam Grant 49:15 There, there's a, there's a little bit of a paradox in here. At minimum, I think they have to be rank ordered so that you can figure out where, what your priorities are. But the paradox is-

Simon Sinek 49:22 Well, that's, well, the five in ranked order, great. Do f- do 10-

Adam Grant 49:26 Yeah

Simon Sinek 49:26 ... do five, doesn't matter. It's only one and two that matter.

Adam Grant 49:29 Well-

Simon Sinek 49:29 Yes. Yes. But-

Adam Grant 49:29 Okay. So let's, let's say you have your rank ordered list of two or three or five or whatever.

Simon Sinek 49:33 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Adam Grant 49:34 The question is: what happens when you have to assess those relationships specific? So we've, we've all met narcissists who are great to, you know, to their distant interactions, their acquaintances, but then horrible to the people who are close to them. Um, and we also know people who might show up as kind in relationships with us, but treat others really poorly.

Simon Sinek 50:00 Yeah.

Adam Grant 50:00 Like do, do they have to embody your values in all relationships, or is it enough for them to be that way with you?

Simon Sinek 50:07 Oh.

Brené Brown 50:07 No, it, I, it-- Yeah, no, I don't-

Simon Sinek 50:09 Yeah

Brené Brown 50:09 ... I don't see it that way.

Simon Sinek 50:11 Yeah.

Brené Brown 50:12 I, I don't see it that way because-

Simon Sinek 50:15 I wanna know their character.

Brené Brown 50:17 Uh, yeah.

Adam Grant 50:17 Me too

Brené Brown 50:17 And I think, yeah, I think there's a line-

Simon Sinek 50:19 I wanna know the-- 'Cause w- we've all experienced it. We've all been treated nicely because we're the keynote speaker or the blah, blah, blah.

Brené Brown 50:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 50:28 Right? And then you see the way they treat their staff. I don't wanna do that.

Brené Brown 50:31 Oh, yeah.

Simon Sinek 50:32 Right? Like I once-- You know, what did Dave Barry say? You know, uh, "Did you notice that? Did you notice that?" I remembered who said it.

Adam Grant 50:38 Hmm. Keep going.

Simon Sinek 50:39 Credit where credit is due. Uh, uh, like Dave Barry said, "Nice people who aren't nice to the waiter aren't nice people."

Brené Brown 50:46 Oh, God, yeah. It's the first thing I taught my kids about dating. If you see someone mistreat-

Simon Sinek 50:50 Yeah

Brené Brown 50:50 ... mistreat someone in the service industry-

Simon Sinek 50:52 Yeah

Brené Brown 50:52 ... run for your life. So to me, the consistent application of values or the consistent values alignment is character.

Simon Sinek 51:01 Yep.

Adam Grant 51:01 Yes. I agree with that. I, I think where it gets more comp-- The, the hierarchical part of that is easy, right? If they're treating people differently based on status or power, like no thanks.

Simon Sinek 51:11 Yeah.

Adam Grant 51:11 I think where it gets more complicated is when it starts to, I guess, spill into in-group, out-group dynamics. Are they kinder to people that they feel more comfortable with? Um, or, you know, who have something in common with them? And then do we have to care about how they treat people that they, you know, they might not have any kind of connection with? That, that's where I struggle more.

Simon Sinek 51:33 I've been dealing with this recently, and whether this is right or wrong, uh, this is where I'm at, which is I actually adjust my standard with someone's age. So somebody who's in their 20s and, you know, we've-- w- when we were younger, we all said stupid things to fit in, you know, made it, puffed ourselves up, were unnecessarily mean about somebody who wasn't there. We've all done it because we wanted to fit in and, and feel included, right? By your 30s, like you should be learning some of that stuff, but maybe some of those insecurities creep back in. 40s, you're, you're entitled to like a mistake or two. But when you start getting older, you should be aware enough that if you're feeling insecure, just shut up, right? Like, and I, I now hold older people to a higher standard 'cause they've had enough life experience that they should know better. Younger people, I show a little more grace.

Adam Grant 52:31 So this, this gets really complicated in the-- Let's, let's take a specific example. Um, your kids are friends with somebody who's great to them but maybe not to other kids.

Brené Brown 52:44 No.

Adam Grant 52:45 Do you tolerate that?

Brené Brown 52:46 No. I, and I don't, I don't have an age ranking. I have a, I have a full application all times, all groups, all people-

Simon Sinek 52:55 It-

Brené Brown 52:55 ... all the time

Simon Sinek 52:56 ... doesn't mean I excuse the behavior. It doesn't mean-

Brené Brown 52:59 But-

Simon Sinek 52:59 ... I excuse the behavior, but I, I a- I allow for the fact that there's a learning curve happening [laughs] and that, that-

Brené Brown 53:05 I mean, I, I do too

Simon Sinek 53:06 ... and then you observe all the kids. The kids who mis- who are nice to your kids but not nice to other kids, you'd find a way to have that conversation to teach the kids. That's, that's-

Brené Brown 53:14 No, because-

Simon Sinek 53:14 ... the grace you're offering.

Brené Brown 53:16 Right. And I think I, the, the thing is that like, like let's take this wider and let's talk about like-

Simon Sinek 53:21 I'm not having a conversation with a 50-year-old like, "You should know better." You know?

Brené Brown 53:26 And I think I would never want to be dismissed by someone I'm in a relationship with, a colleague, a partner, a child, a friend, because I have operated or behaved outside of my values. And so I... it's not like one step outside your values and you're dead to me because I'm outside my values. I mean, I struggle with it every day sometimes. But I think if I've got a child and they've got a friend who's very kind to them but is unkind to other people, that's gonna be problematic, and we're going to talk about the ramifications of that, and we're gonna talk about what that means, how that makes them feel, what happens when they observe that and not saying anything is outside of their own values. And so I think it's, I don't think values are situational. I think the expression of behaviors are situational.

Simon Sinek 54:27 Oh, very good.

Adam Grant 54:28 Yes.

Simon Sinek 54:28 Good distinction. Good distinction.

Adam Grant 54:30 Very well put.

Simon Sinek 54:30 Very well put.

Brené Brown 54:32 A- and I'll tell you one thing, Adam, that I think about a lot too to your question, and this is like a hard thing, but very early on I started thinking about compliance versus commitment with my kids. So my, so my youngest just graduated from high school. He's off to college. My daughter is 25 getting her PhD. They're spreading their wings. Um- In the early days of parenting, it's all about compliance. You don't go in the street 'cause I said you don't go in the street. You don't watch, you don't play these violent video games. But at some point, if there's not deep discussions about values and friends and things, when it's time for compliance to turn into commitment because you're not controlling that-

Simon Sinek 55:17 Right

Brené Brown 55:17 ... you will really struggle. And I think the same is true, I, I hate to use parenting 'cause in work it infantilizes some, but I think the same is true when you're building a team. If you have to have a team operating within a set of values as compliance, you're just dead.

Simon Sinek 55:35 Which is ironic that there's entire departments in certain companies called compliance, right?

Brené Brown 55:39 [laughs] Right. I mean-

Simon Sinek 55:42 As oppo- as oppo- as opposed to ethics.

Brené Brown 55:45 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 55:45 Right?

Brené Brown 55:46 Value, yeah. They get to commitment.

Simon Sinek 55:47 Like they don't have ethical departments. They don't have ethical departments. They have compliance departments. The... But I think you're-- This is a great distinction about the, the values versus the behavior, because the behaviors are excusable, and we all step out, we all-

Brené Brown 55:58 Yeah

Simon Sinek 55:58 ... we all step outside our values. And, but the... And I guess what I'm getting at is, is the character, where the people who perhaps I show a little less grace to, not that I humiliate or shame, I don't. It's just sort of, you sort of, I'm just, you just sort of take note in your mind. It's not a behavior that I'm reacting to. It's a clue about character. And I say clue because one example's not enough.

Brené Brown 56:20 I agree.

Adam Grant 56:21 Yeah. Th- this reminds me of,

Adam Grant 56:24 have either of you ever read the, the Samuel and Pearl Oliner study of, um, Holocaust rescuers and bystanders?

Brené Brown 56:32 No.

Adam Grant 56:33 Uh, uh, amazing project by sociologists. So w- basically they, they got a big sample, hundreds of Christians who rescued Jews during the Holocaust-

Simon Sinek 56:43 Mm-hmm

Adam Grant 56:43 ... and compared them to their own neighbors who did nothing.

Simon Sinek 56:46 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 56:47 And they wanted to know what, what made these people-

Simon Sinek 56:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Adam Grant 56:50 ... into, you know, humans of such extraordinary character that they were willing to risk their lives for somebody who didn't share their fundamental beliefs. And there, there were a lot of interesting findings in the study, but one that has always stuck with me was, um, the rescuers compared to the bystanders, uh, were less likely to be punished with consequences and more likely to be punished with explanations. And I think this goes to the heart of, Brené, your distinction between compliance and commitment.

Simon Sinek 57:18 Wait, explain-

Adam Grant 57:18 Um, as kids-

Simon Sinek 57:19 Explain, just explain.

Adam Grant 57:20 Sorry, let me... Yeah, let me, let me explain a little more clearly. So growing up, um, the, the people who went on to, to become rescuers, when they did something wrong, their parents didn't punish them. Uh-

Simon Sinek 57:32 Oh

Adam Grant 57:32 ... they, they explained to them why the behavior was wrong. So then it, then it, instead of just learning to im- to comply with what authority figures did, they actually internalized a set of values and principles-

Simon Sinek 57:42 Wow

Adam Grant 57:42 ... that they carried with them.

Simon Sinek 57:45 Oh, you just gave me goosebumps.

Brené Brown 57:45 That's the difference between compliant... Yeah, me too. That's compliance versus commitment. That's-

Simon Sinek 57:48 Wow.

Adam Grant 57:49 In a, in a nutshell.

Simon Sinek 57:50 Wow. And this is all, this is now nature versus nurture too, which is... Oh, and I remember, I remember a study that I read that I couldn't tell you who did it. Um-

Brené Brown 58:01 Adolf Ellis.

Simon Sinek 58:02 Thank you.

Brené Brown 58:02 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 58:03 I, it's a study, when I was writing "Leaders Eat Last," I was, I became very interested in, I read a whole bunch of parenting stuff, and one of the things I remember reading is that, um, uh, w- I think they talked about values, but our values don't come from our parents. You know, there's so many influences in our lives and, like, two kids who are brought up the same way, you know, one goes one way, one goes the other. And they, and, and apparently across cultures, universally, there's only two things everyone always gets from their parents, which is how you treat yourself and how you treat others.

Brené Brown 58:33 That's interesting.

Simon Sinek 58:34 And, and Adam, this would speak to that, which is when you make a bad choice and, and you get an explanation that, uh, you're learning to treat others in a certain way, and yourself in that manner.

Brené Brown 58:49 For sure.

Simon Sinek 58:49 And yourself in that, versus getting punished. You're gonna treat yourself or others in a different way. So good. This goes to Leadership 101 as well. Let, let me tell you why we, we don't do that around here, you know? And why, why, what ha- why the decision you made, I wanna explain to you what, what, what's important about that decision. Like, why, why we don't do it that way. So good.

Brené Brown 59:10 It's so good, and I would imagine, I mean, I don't know if they got to this, Adam. Did they? I would imagine when it was consequence versus punishment, I would imagine... This is so interesting. I would imagine that consequence would be a lot of lessons in empathy about how someone's actions affected other people.

Adam Grant 59:38 Exactly.

Brené Brown 59:39 Where punishment is more shame-driven.

Simon Sinek 59:42 Yes.

Adam Grant 59:42 I, it, I, it's, I mean, it l- literally, I think they were, they were doing your research. Like they [chuckles] yeah, the, the parents explained the consequences. Like, "Here's why, you know, stealing your sibling's toy hurts them."

Simon Sinek 59:56 Yeah.

Adam Grant 59:57 "Imagine how you would feel if someone, someone stole your toy," right? It's the whole thing.

Simon Sinek 1:00:01 This is so good. This is so good.

Adam Grant 1:00:01 And instead of shame, they get guilt, [laughs] right? Like, "I did a bad thing, and I need to now prevent it moving forward."

Brené Brown 1:00:08 What is the one emotion or affect that shame corrodes?

Adam Grant 1:00:17 Empathy.

Brené Brown 1:00:17 Emp- shame corrodes empathy.

Simon Sinek 1:00:20 Yeah.

Brené Brown 1:00:20 Empathy cannot survive shame.

Simon Sinek 1:00:22 And shame-

Brené Brown 1:00:22 Because sha- you wa- shame is so self-focused

Simon Sinek 1:00:24 ... and shame, you start to believe you're the only person in the world-

Brené Brown 1:00:28 Yes

Simon Sinek 1:00:28 ... right? Right? Where, because it's about preventing me from getting in trouble-

Brené Brown 1:00:34 Right

Simon Sinek 1:00:34 ... which is a very selfish disposition, uh, versus recognizing that I live in the world and my words and my actions have, have, uh, impact in the lives of others.

Brené Brown 1:00:46 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 1:00:46 That-

Brené Brown 1:00:47 Self-focus versus other-focused. Yeah

Simon Sinek 1:00:48 ... the s- the self versus th- the other focus. And, but it w- I think it works the other way as well, which is, uh, it's not just punishment, it's also the reward, and you look at a corporate environment. Look at Boeing.

Brené Brown 1:01:00 Oh, God.

Simon Sinek 1:01:00 Let's just look at Boeing for five minutes.

Adam Grant 1:01:02 [sighs]

Simon Sinek 1:01:02 What a clusterfuck that is Right? Um, and incentivized to move fast and hit numbers, punished for slowing down the system. But it's-- So it's not just the punishment, it's also the incentive, right? We're incentivizing the wrong behaviors, and we're, and we're disincentivizing the pro-social behaviors. And it all goes back, it all goes back to selfish versus selfless, which is, do you live in the world by yourself or do you live in the world with others? And I'm gonna parent you to recognize that you are one of many versus parenting you that you are just one. You follow the rules because it's just you that needs to follow the rules.

Adam Grant 1:01:50 And what that leads you to is taking actions to protect your reputation as opposed to improve your character.

Simon Sinek 1:01:57 Yes.

Brené Brown 1:01:57 I think that's it.

Simon Sinek 1:01:58 Or improve your behavior, yeah.

Brené Brown 1:02:00 Yeah. And it's so interesting, too, because y'all, y'all talked about narcissism, and that's why, like, I think-- I don't remember what book it was in. May- no, it wasn't "Atlas of the Heart." I think it was "Dare to Lead." I said, "I think this is my own definition of narcissism."

Simon Sinek 1:02:13 That one's written by Brené Brown. That one I know. [laughs]

Brené Brown 1:02:16 Thank you. Uh, this is all that matters, Simon. Just get mine right. Um-

Simon Sinek 1:02:20 [laughs]

Brené Brown 1:02:21 But I think, I think it was in "Dare to Lead" that I said, um, to me, narcissism is the shame-based fear of being ordinary. And it's so funny because people think that narcissists are, you know, have these huge egos and it's about grandiosity. But I do know, not from my research, but from other people's research, that there's no kind of continuum on the personality disorder continuum that's more shame-fueled-

Simon Sinek 1:02:50 Than narcissism

Brené Brown 1:02:50 ... than narcissism.

Simon Sinek 1:02:51 Yeah.

Brené Brown 1:02:53 And people are so afraid of being ordinary. I do, I do think there's something very shame-based, very self-focused, very just scared to death on the inside of that.

Simon Sinek 1:03:09 Yeah. Yeah.

Adam Grant 1:03:11 I wonder how-- So I, I, I think about narcissism much less, you know, uh, in terms of the personality disorder and much more in terms of, like, normal personality. We all know-

Brené Brown 1:03:20 Yeah. Yeah

Adam Grant 1:03:20 ... people, some people who are more narcissistic than others.

Brené Brown 1:03:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A set of-

Simon Sinek 1:03:22 Yeah, yeah

Brené Brown 1:03:23 ... a collection of behaviors, yeah.

Adam Grant 1:03:24 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 1:03:24 Right. Right.

Adam Grant 1:03:25 Like a tendency to have an inflated ego and be entitled. And I think this makes me wonder, like, is this part of the difference between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism? Um, those, those two flavors that often come out, where the grandiose is the larger than life, "I'm more important than everyone else," and the vulnerable is the, like, "I'm, I'm afraid of, you know, of any criticism." I, I wonder if these are different strategies for managing shame. That the-

Simon Sinek 1:03:50 Yeah

Adam Grant 1:03:51 ... grandiose narcissists build them-

Brené Brown 1:03:52 Absolutely

Adam Grant 1:03:52 ... themselves up-

Simon Sinek 1:03:53 100%

Adam Grant 1:03:53 ... and the vulnerable narcissists retreat.

Simon Sinek 1:03:55 Oh, 100%. And by the way, this is one, I think, one of the things that makes human beings so fascinating. You know, I'll, I'll make it a more base example that just reminds me of college, right? Which is somebody who's very, very social, excessively social, could be because they're so insecure they have to be really, really social, or they're so secure they can be really, really social. Or somebody who never goes out, they stay at home the whole time. It's because they're so insecure they can't go out, or they're so secure they can't-- they don't wanna go out. And I love the fact that the behaviors can be the same, but the roots-

Adam Grant 1:04:30 Opposite motivations

Simon Sinek 1:04:31 ... but the, but the roots are different.

Brené Brown 1:04:32 Opposite, yeah.

Adam Grant 1:04:33 Fascinating.

Simon Sinek 1:04:33 And for me, part of the fascination of, like, the, the, the, the anthropologist in me has always been to try to find the subtleties and nuances that I can spot the difference, 'cause they exist.

Adam Grant 1:04:47 Well, we, we had this over the weekend. I-- Simon, you, you actually displayed this, uh, in Stockholm. Brené, I was, I, I was noticing two conferences in a row. Simon is the first person to leave the party to go to bed.

Brené Brown 1:05:01 Mm.

Adam Grant 1:05:02 And at first [laughs] I was like, "Simon, are you more-- I thought I was more introverted than you are. You know, are, are you just getting overwhelmed early? Are you sleep obsessed?" And then at some point it hit me, you're secure enough that you're not staying around out of FOMO.

Simon Sinek 1:05:20 I-- There-- A lot of people with loud noise is about the worst thing in the world.

Brené Brown 1:05:26 Oh, God, same.

Adam Grant 1:05:26 But it's not-- I, I feel that way too, but it's not just that. You also have the confidence to walk away-

Brené Brown 1:05:31 Yeah

Adam Grant 1:05:31 ... and say, "Look, you know, I don't, I don't need to, to stick around in the hopes that I'll make a conne- a connection in the next hour."

Simon Sinek 1:05:39 Yeah. I, I-- Y- that's true. I-

Brené Brown 1:05:42 [laughs] That's true of you. I've been, I've been around you. That's true of you.

Simon Sinek 1:05:46 The-

Brené Brown 1:05:46 I mean...

Simon Sinek 1:05:48 Yeah. I, you know, I, it's kind of a life philosophy.

Brené Brown 1:05:56 Just say it.

Simon Sinek 1:05:56 No, no, no. This, it's just my-- It's sort of a life philosophy, which is, which is things will come my way 'cause I'll randomly find myself in places, and I will miss things because I didn't show up, and I have to be okay [chuckles] with both.

Brené Brown 1:06:11 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 1:06:12 And because I understand that if I, if I try and be everywhere, it actually won't actually necessarily dramatically increase the odds of me getting more. And so I'm just okay that... You know, it's kind of like we always say, y- we say this with our friends all the time, like, you know, "Let me buy dinner." "No, no, let me buy it." "Don't worry, it'll even out in the wash," right? Like, over the course of time, it's like if I flip a coin 100 times, it's gonna be 50/50, right? And so my attitude is, is like, in a vacuum, yeah, it's probably lopsided, but over the course of my life it'll even out. You know, win some, lose some. So I, I-- Yeah, I've never met a party I couldn't leave too early.

Brené Brown 1:06:54 God, same. Same.

Simon Sinek 1:06:57 But Adam, so I, as an introvert, if you're fine-- 'cause if you're, if you're actually uncomfortable with the, the crowd and the noise- What, what is the motivation that you choose to stay?

Adam Grant 1:07:10 Well, I, I, I really like people-

Simon Sinek 1:07:12 [laughs]

Adam Grant 1:07:13 ... even when I get-

Simon Sinek 1:07:14 I can see. So you're not an introvert as much. [laughs]

Adam Grant 1:07:17 No, I am. I just, I just at some point get overstimulated by-

Simon Sinek 1:07:20 Oh, good

Adam Grant 1:07:20 ... the noise and interaction. But I, I think that-

Simon Sinek 1:07:24 'Cause I, I don't like people. [laughs]

Adam Grant 1:07:26 [laughs] We know. We know. Secret is out. Simon, Simon, I... Well, I'm gonna talk about you in the third person. Brené, I think Simon does like people less than you and I do.

Brené Brown 1:07:37 I would-- I'd be shocked if he less pe- liked people less than me.

Adam Grant 1:07:41 [laughs]

Brené Brown 1:07:42 I, I'm just gonna be re- I'm gonna be re- I mean, I-- Like, humanity, I love. People in general-

Adam Grant 1:07:46 [laughs]

Brené Brown 1:07:48 I like, I like persons. I like persons.

Adam Grant 1:07:51 [laughs] Fair.

Brené Brown 1:07:52 I like persons.

Adam Grant 1:07:52 Brené-

Brené Brown 1:07:52 I mean, let me just say, let me just say this. Y'all, the, the difference between me and y'all is I will not even be at the party. Like, contractually, there is, in every contract I sign, there is no dinner.

Adam Grant 1:08:04 Oh, I'm-

Brené Brown 1:08:05 There is no meet and greet

Adam Grant 1:08:05 ... same, same.

Brené Brown 1:08:06 There is nothing.

Simon Sinek 1:08:07 Oh, wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait, wait.

Adam Grant 1:08:08 Same.

Simon Sinek 1:08:08 No, no, no. Not going to the party-

Brené Brown 1:08:09 Do y'all go to those?

Simon Sinek 1:08:10 No. By the, by the way-

Adam Grant 1:08:12 No

Simon Sinek 1:08:12 ... I, there were, like-

Adam Grant 1:08:13 No, what we're talking about are-

Simon Sinek 1:08:14 ... there's an after party. I've never been to an after party because I don't understand-

Brené Brown 1:08:17 Okay

Simon Sinek 1:08:17 ... the point of them. I, I went to the damn party. Why do I have to go to the party after the party? [laughs] I don't go to them. Like-

Adam Grant 1:08:22 I, I will see your, your party avoidance and raise you. By the time I was a senior in college, uh, I convinced my roommates that we should have board game gatherings, which were called people overs, 'cause I didn't wanna have to leave our room or go to a party.

Simon Sinek 1:08:37 I, I was in college and-

Brené Brown 1:08:38 Mm

Simon Sinek 1:08:38 ... my suitemates would throw parties, and the rule was every, every suitemate had to contribute money f- to pay for the party, you know, 50 bucks each or whatever. I would pay my 50 bucks and then go out.

Adam Grant 1:08:48 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 1:08:49 I didn't go to the parties that I paid for.

Brené Brown 1:08:51 This is why y'all are my people. I mean, this is really why you're my people. I mean, I just... Yeah, for me, it's, uh, it's very, very, very difficult. But

Brené Brown 1:09:01 I wanted to go back to one thought, 'cause I wrote it down. I just wanted to say something that might be controversial, but I think it's an important thing to add, and it goes back to looking for motivation, and it goes back to the grandiose narcissism and the vulnerable garci- uh, narcissism.

Adam Grant 1:09:22 Mm-hmm.

Brené Brown 1:09:23 I would argue that no matter the behavior, self-focusedness, s- someone who's super self-focused will be, no matter how it's expressed, is equally painful to other people. I think it's very dangerous to buy into the idea that a grandiose behaving person that has narcissistic tendencies is going to be more hurtful than a per- uh, someone who has those tendencies and is vulnerable. It just shows up different. Um, but in the end, self-- when you're self-focused, there's going to be some empathic fails that are going to be hurtful to somebody.

Simon Sinek 1:10:09 But yes, and we also have to consider the audience, right? Which is, b- I agree with you that the, there is impact from both behaviors, but some people are more resilient to one of those behaviors, and some are more resilient to the other kind of behavior.

Brené Brown 1:10:26 I don't agree.

Simon Sinek 1:10:27 So, like, I-- Like, if somebody is grandiose, I may say, "Meh, whatever. They're just grandstanding," and I'm not hurt or affected. But if somebody's despondent, it's like my own insecurity is like, "Oh my God, did I say something wrong?" So where somebody else might be the opposite. And it goes back to what we were saying before, which is-

Brené Brown 1:10:49 Mm

Simon Sinek 1:10:49 ... the motivations of the behaviors may be different. So, so how I respond c- may look the same but be differently motivated.

Brené Brown 1:10:58 Yes. I think-

Adam Grant 1:10:59 Yes.

Simon Sinek 1:10:59 If, if, if the whole point we're making is that-

Brené Brown 1:11:01 Yes

Simon Sinek 1:11:01 ... we live in the world, we can't just consider-

Adam Grant 1:11:03 Yes

Simon Sinek 1:11:03 ... the person who's behaving. We also have to consider the person on the receiving end of the behavior.

Brené Brown 1:11:06 Receiving end, yeah.

Simon Sinek 1:11:07 Yes.

Brené Brown 1:11:07 I think you're, I think you're right. I think, I think when I see grandiosity, I mean, like, Trump is a, is a great example, in my opinion. Are we allowed to say that?

Simon Sinek 1:11:17 I keep it apolitical, but it's an example-

Brené Brown 1:11:19 Okay. Let's-

Simon Sinek 1:11:19 ... of grandiosity. It's fine.

Brené Brown 1:11:21 Yeah. Um, you can see that coming.

Simon Sinek 1:11:25 And some people find it offensive, and some people find it seductive.

Brené Brown 1:11:29 Right. But-

Simon Sinek 1:11:29 And it doesn't make one more right than the other.

Brené Brown 1:11:33 No, but I think when the behavior outwardly... I don't know. I, I just find in leadership, with leaders I've worked with, that vulnerable, quiet self-focus can be absolutely brutal on direct reports.

Adam Grant 1:11:55 Huh.

Simon Sinek 1:11:55 Uh, y- agreed.

Brené Brown 1:11:56 Okay. 'Cause no one sees it, but it's there.

Simon Sinek 1:12:02 To your point, because it's not grandiose, it's more silent. It's a poison, you know, more than anything.

Brené Brown 1:12:10 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 1:12:11 You didn't realize you were drinking it until later. But I, I still think that we, we may be less practiced at dealing with it because it's, it's, it's harder to see. But, uh-

Brené Brown 1:12:21 That, I think that's true.

Adam Grant 1:12:22 Yeah.

Brené Brown 1:12:22 I think that's true.

Simon Sinek 1:12:24 You know?

Adam Grant 1:12:24 Yeah. But I, I, I will say, I'll, I'll do another sort of yes and, which is, like, when it comes to leadership, I, I don't want any narcissism. I agree with you, Brené. Like, this is an overused word, but any kind of self-absorption is toxic. If I had to choose, I would rather coach the grandiose narcissist than the vulnerable one. Like, you don't get-

Brené Brown 1:12:47 Same

Adam Grant 1:12:47 ... you don't get Steve Jobs founding Apple from vulnerable narcissism. It's grandiose.

Simon Sinek 1:12:51 Yeah.

Adam Grant 1:12:52 Um, and I think there's, um, oh, there's, there's a great, um, [laughs] Rubenzer and Faschingbauer study of presidential personality, uh, showing that grandiose-

Brené Brown 1:13:04 By the way-

Adam Grant 1:13:04 I'm sorry

Brené Brown 1:13:04 ... these studies, I can't even remember the names.

Adam Grant 1:13:07 Uh, it's in the job description. Um-

Brené Brown 1:13:09 Why can't scientists be named like Smith, Johnson, Williams?

Adam Grant 1:13:13 [laughs] That would be helpful.

Simon Sinek 1:13:14 No?

Adam Grant 1:13:14 Anyway, let me, let me get to the substance, which is, uh, th- when they looked at, uh, presidential personality ratings from, um, historians and political scientists and then predicted, uh, greatness, uh, as, as rated by experts, um, they found that, um, there were-- that basically that vulnerable narcissists didn't succeed, and that grandiose narcissism was a double-edged sword.

Simon Sinek 1:13:36 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 1:13:36 That, you know, sometimes it led to extraordinary public persuasiveness, and other times, you know, it led to-

Simon Sinek 1:13:41 Churchill

Adam Grant 1:13:41 ... overconfidence. Um-

Simon Sinek 1:13:43 Churchill.

Brené Brown 1:13:44 Churchill. [laughs]

Adam Grant 1:13:45 It re- [laughs] yeah, both, exactly, depending on what period of time you look at. Uh, but, b- but what, what's so interesting to me is, um, there's another researcher, Brad Owens, who has studied, um, what he calls humble narcissism. And I don't like, I don't like the term, but he finds that narcissism and humility can coexist, that you can have the grandiose belief, "I'm capable of doing great things"-

Simon Sinek 1:14:09 Yeah

Adam Grant 1:14:09 ... and also the humility to, you know, to know, to know your weaknesses. And I, I think that so much of what I've tried to do with leaders historically is I've tried to dial down their grandiose narcissism, and what I actually need to do is raise up their humility.

Brené Brown 1:14:23 Ugh, yeah.

Adam Grant 1:14:23 Like, I don't wanna convince Steve Jobs that he lacks vision.

Simon Sinek 1:14:27 Hold on.

Adam Grant 1:14:27 I wanna convince him that he's terrible at interacting with other people.

Simon Sinek 1:14:32 But first, let's define humility, right? Uh, and my favorite definition of humility is from Bob Gailer, who was the fifth Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force. And he said, "Don't confuse humility with meekness."

Brené Brown 1:14:47 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 1:14:47 "Humility is being open to the ideas of others."

Brené Brown 1:14:50 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 1:14:51 And since I've embraced that definition, I have no problem with people with huge egos. And all these people in big power, they have to have big egos. You couldn't get there without it.

Brené Brown 1:15:00 Mm-mm.

Simon Sinek 1:15:00 You have to believe you're good enough, right? But the g- but the ones that I find impressive are the ones that say, "Hey, I have an idea," and they go, "Let's hear it." And those are the ones that I-- And so if you're talking about a humble narcissist, it's not that they're necessarily aware of their weaknesses. I think they have plenty of blind spots and all of that stuff. It's that they recog-- And it goes, it goes back to this, this theme that, that keeps coming up, which is they live in the world. They recognize that there are other people, that their behaviors impact other people, and that other people are included in all the decisions they make, and that they will benefit from the ideas of other people, and they will actually, you know, look better if they're open to the ideas of others. So-

Adam Grant 1:15:39 I, I think that gets us part of the way there. I, I wanna go further, though, and say that, like, uh, the, the right combination of humility and confidence is being secure enough in your strengths to see your weaknesses. And I think it's, at, at, at its core, recognizing your own limitations and shortcomings that makes you the most open to other people's ideas.

Simon Sinek 1:15:57 So, and I think you and I have talked about this, I can't remember, which is I actually don't believe in strengths and weaknesses. I believe in characteristics and attributes.

Adam Grant 1:16:04 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 1:16:04 I have certain characteristics and attributes, and in certain contexts, those things display as weaknesses, and in certain contexts, those things display as, as strengths. And so the, the trick is not to-

Adam Grant 1:16:13 I like that

Simon Sinek 1:16:14 ... quote unquote, "work on my weaknesses and build on my strengths." It's to put myself in situations-

Brené Brown 1:16:19 Yeah

Simon Sinek 1:16:19 ... where my characteristics are more likely to reveal themselves as strengths, and put other people [chuckles] in the other situations where they will thrive and do great because I will not. And that-

Adam Grant 1:16:30 Simon is demonstrating metacognition right now.

Brené Brown 1:16:32 I, I was gonna say, I'm gonna take this to the very full circle from when we started.

Simon Sinek 1:16:36 And let us, let's, let's-- W- Brené, why don't you wrap it up for us?

Brené Brown 1:16:39 Well, I'm gonna take it back to the beginning, and I'm gonna say I actually believe that humility is a function of metacognition.

Simon Sinek 1:16:46 [laughs]

Brené Brown 1:16:48 Um, I do. And I think it's actually humility is a property of confidence. I don't think you can be a confident person without some humility. So I don't know what the temporal relationship is, but I actually think there is a level of metacognition that's required for humility, which takes us very back to the very beginning of Simon's first, like, when we first got on about self-awareness. I think if you can't think about how you're thinking-

Simon Sinek 1:17:19 I, I think we're-

Brené Brown 1:17:19 ... it's hard

Simon Sinek 1:17:20 ... I think we're making the standard too high, that you have to be able to think about what you're thinking about, right? And I think that's, that's-

Brené Brown 1:17:28 No.

Adam Grant 1:17:28 No

Simon Sinek 1:17:28 ... I, I, I, I would be okay with, I would-

Brené Brown 1:17:32 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 1:17:33 ... I would be okay with, I would be okay with that you just know that you're not the only person in the world. And it goes back to that parenting thing, that, that you will have humility. It goes back to the high-performing teams, you know, the ones that have care for each other, right? That, that, that if you just can recognize that there are other people in the world, and everything you say and everything you do will impact those people in the world positively or negatively, you will have humility.

Brené Brown 1:18:01 I agree with that. I think you'll need metacognition for that. [laughs]

Adam Grant 1:18:04 [laughs]

Brené Brown 1:18:06 Adam, hey, Phineas, Adam, what do you think?

Adam Grant 1:18:08 Well-

Brené Brown 1:18:08 Are you on voting for metacog-cognition or voting against?

Adam Grant 1:18:10 I, I, I'm with Brené on this one, Simon. I think that-

Brené Brown 1:18:12 [laughs]

Adam Grant 1:18:13 ... maybe, maybe thinking about thinking, it is, I think it's great shorthand for metacognition.

Brené Brown 1:18:18 Yes.

Adam Grant 1:18:18 But maybe a different way to say it is you need to have the wisdom to exercise judgment about your own judgment.

Brené Brown 1:18:25 Yes. [clapping]

Simon Sinek 1:18:27 I, I just think you need to recognize that there's other people in the world. [laughs]

Brené Brown 1:18:31 And I think in order to do that, you really have to have judgment about your thinking.

Simon Sinek 1:18:34 [laughs] Okay, we have, we're gonna start recording it.

Adam Grant 1:18:36 Let's just ignore that there's a Simon and carry on with this podcast.

Simon Sinek 1:18:39 We're gonna just start recording. There's an infinite loop. Okay. And then the, then the episodes end suddenly-

Adam Grant 1:18:42 Simon, by the way-

Simon Sinek 1:18:42 ... and there we go. It's done

Adam Grant 1:18:43 ... you, you seem really exhausted. You have no energy right now.

Brené Brown 1:18:46 [laughs] You should think about that.

Simon Sinek 1:18:49 You do realize, you do realize, you do realize how screwed the two of you are? Do you realize how screwed the two of you are? Because the next time I'm exhausted and I gotta show up, I'm gonna be like, "Can you just hold on? I have just to call Adam and Brené for an hour and a half, and then I'll be, I'll be on fire."

Brené Brown 1:19:00 [laughs]

Adam Grant 1:19:00 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 1:19:01 Then I'll be on fire.

Brené Brown 1:19:03 I'm down for it.

Adam Grant 1:19:03 Can't wait.

Brené Brown 1:19:03 Okay, bye, guys.

Simon Sinek 1:19:04 Bye-bye. See you later