What Mentally Strong People Do on Their Worst Days | Psychotherapist Amy Morin

Simon Sinek 0:00 You do not want to relive any of the things that you have lived, those tragedies. What about you has changed because of those things that deep down inside you're glad they happened?

Amy Morin 0:12 So I grew up incredibly shy, but probably as a kid could have been diagnosed with selective mutism. I didn't talk for years, and public speaking would have been my number one fear. I gave the eulogy at my husband's funeral, and in that moment I was like, "I don't care if I embarrass myself, if I stumble over my words. I don't care how I sound. It's not about me." I've been through the worst of the worst.

Simon Sinek 0:35 Yeah, a negative review just doesn't do it anymore.

Amy Morin 0:37 Yeah, go ahead and do that. I'm okay now.

Simon Sinek 0:40 The mental health industry is booming. There's all kinds of therapists out there, some of them legitimate, some of them not. There's all kinds of advice being dispensed across social media. But here's a question. If all that mental health guidance we were getting was working, wouldn't there be a decline in our anxiety and depression? But there's not. It's going up. So maybe, just maybe, the advice that we're getting or the advice that we're following is wrong. That's why I invited Amy Morin on the show. She's a psychotherapist who wrote an amazing book called 13 Things That Mentally Strong People Don't Do, and her new book is The Mental Strength Playbook. She questions the advice that we're getting and the advice that we're following. She views mental fitness as something that we work towards, nothing that we'll ever achieve. But most importantly, there are very simple and practical steps that we can take to keep ourselves mentally strong regardless of the ups and downs that we all experience in our professional and personal lives. If you like this content and are interested in more, please remember to subscribe. This is A Bit of Optimism. This episode is proudly brought to you by SAP. Staying at one job for a whole career used to be the norm. Now, it's the exception. So when it does happen today, I want to know why. Is there something wrong with the employee or is the company doing something right? Given how rare a long tenure has become, I was excited to talk to David Robinson. He's been at SAP for over 20 years and I wanted to hear what it takes to continue staying interested and inspired at one company. To learn more about SAP, the AI Cloud ERP for businesses of all size, head to SAP.com/GROW. Amy, thanks for, for joining me and coming in. I appreciate it.

Amy Morin 2:41 I'm thrilled to be here, Simon.

Simon Sinek 2:43 Let's talk about mental health. [laughs] I think you and I see the world very similarly. You know, I hate the term mental health.

Amy Morin 2:50 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 2:51 I use the term mental fitness. Mental health sounds like some goal you have to achieve which nobody ever will. We're always falling short, where mental fitness, like physical fitness, is something you're always working on. Sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind, but it's a practice that you commit to your life. But you are more qualified to talk about mental health than I am. You're actually sort of trained in this stuff. It's an obsession right now. Everybody's talking about mental health. People are dispensing armchair advice all over Instagram and TikTok, which I hope is well-intended. However, there's a problem with the mental health world in America today.

Amy Morin 3:27 Yeah. Yeah, despite our increased conversations-

Simon Sinek 3:32 Yeah

Amy Morin 3:32 ... with mental health-

Simon Sinek 3:33 It's a, it's a real topic now

Amy Morin 3:34 ... right, as you've noticed. We're not getting better. [laughs] That over the years it seems to be our mental health is struggling more and more.

Simon Sinek 3:40 Yeah.

Amy Morin 3:41 And despite a lot of these superficial conversations, I'm not hearing from a lot of people like, "I'm so grateful that the more we talk about it, the better I feel." In fact, sometimes it's the opposite. And something I'm seeing in my therapy office is people are now going on a quest to be like, "If I can just figure out what happened to me when I was seven, then somehow I'm gonna feel better today." Or they think that mental health is something to be achieved, or something you have or something you don't. And when you think about it, like nobody walks around and says, "Well, I'm physically healthy," right? Or like physical health is not a, a goal.

Simon Sinek 4:11 Less of a conversation, yeah.

Amy Morin 4:12 Right. But when it comes to mental health, it's like people think, "Yes, I'm mentally healthy," or you're mentally ill. But the truth is if you looked at a, a scale of how people are on optimal mental health, the CDC at some point said about 17% of people are probably operating at optimal mental health at any given moment. And where we fall on that scale varies throughout the day. Depends what you ate for lunch, who you've been talking to, whether you're tired. So many of these factors, yet we think you either have mental health or you don't.

Simon Sinek 4:40 Yeah. I think we've also confused feelings, like having feelings. Like you're sad-

Amy Morin 4:45 Yeah

Simon Sinek 4:45 ... you're angry, you're frustrated, you're overwhelmed is not a mental health problem. That's just life.

Amy Morin 4:53 Right.

Simon Sinek 4:54 Is it the younger generations are just talking about it more?

Amy Morin 4:56 Well, I think we're talking about feelings more, but as you say, now that we're talking about them more, people are thinking that there's a problem with their feelings. So the one I hear all the time is, "Well, I have anxiety." Well, we all have anxiety, and the problem is, is that an anxiety disorder is just called that so we name it the same thing as the feeling so then people think, "Well, if I'm anxious before I give a presentation, clearly I have social anxiety or some kind of anxiety disorder." And we don't separate those things and we don't talk about how to deal with those feelings. I'm finding a lot of people are like, "Well, what do you do when you're sad?" And I think our phones and technology could be wonderful tools, but so many people are just reaching for them to escape those emotions and we're not learning how to tolerate them and work through them.

Simon Sinek 5:39 So in your practice, do you teach people how to feel? Do you teach people how to have emotions? And I think your, your, your, your insight there which is if the mental health industry was working-

Amy Morin 5:50 Yeah

Simon Sinek 5:50 ... there would be less problems and less anxiety and less of everything, but the trend is going up. So either the mental health industry doesn't care to get you better because it's in, there's a profit motive to keep you sick, or there's a misunderstanding of what it is and we don't know how To ask for help or what help looks like. Probably some combination of both, I would imagine. So can you tell me a story of somebody who, from your practice, who doesn't see you anymore because they came with a problem and it's fixed, quote unquote? It's better. They're good.

Amy Morin 6:26 Yeah. So fortunately, I can think of s- many people over the years, but if I were to think of, like, a, a recent one, I had somebody that came for depression.

Simon Sinek 6:34 Yeah.

Amy Morin 6:35 And it was really clear.

Simon Sinek 6:35 And they were, they were actually depressed.

Amy Morin 6:37 Right. It wasn't-

Simon Sinek 6:37 They weren't just sad.

Amy Morin 6:38 Right. Because what happens a lot these days is people come in and they're trying to, like, optimize their mental health, right? Like, "Oh, I have an avoidant boyfriend, so I need to work on my attachment issues." Well, that's not a mental illness. If we're talking about true mental illness, like major depression or generalized anxiety, that's much different. So when somebody came in, he had definitely had major depression, and it was a matter of let's talk about what strategies work for depression. Sometimes it's exercise. It's increasing your social circle. It's about being more active and participating in daily things, managing your diet. A lot of strategies like that. Coping skills. How do you deal with a bad day when you have depression versus what does it mean to just be sad? And so I'm a cognitive behavioral therapist by trade, which means I help people shape the way that they think, which then shifts the way that you feel, and then you also change your behavior, and it creates a more positive feedback loop.

Simon Sinek 7:32 So how did you help him change the way he thought about himself?

Amy Morin 7:36 So a lot of what he was struggling with was the, the automatic thoughts that popped into his head. So somebody doesn't call you back. When you're battling depression, sometimes it's because I'm worthless, because people don't like me.

Simon Sinek 7:49 Mm-hmm.

Amy Morin 7:49 Because it's all my fault. Or if you don't get picked for a project at work, it's because I'm not good enough. And when you really peel back the layers about what kinds of things people are thinking, often boils down to that deep-rooted belief of somehow I'm flawed and not good enough and people don't like me.

Simon Sinek 8:04 Mm-hmm.

Amy Morin 8:05 And when his depressive episodes would get activated, he had a couple of them throughout his life, but it just got kicked into high gear-

Simon Sinek 8:12 Mm

Amy Morin 8:12 ... where he would assume everything was because he was a flawed human being. And the more he would think about that, the less he would participate in life, and the less he would participate in life, yeah, the worse he felt.

Simon Sinek 8:23 And so how did you turn it around?

Amy Morin 8:24 So we would take a look at those thoughts. Like, literally, if somebody didn't call you back, that's one option. Maybe they actually don't like you, but what are 10 more? Or what can you tell yourself when you wake up in the morning... Something he battled was on a really depressed day, he didn't wanna go to work.

Simon Sinek 8:39 Mm-hmm.

Amy Morin 8:40 Well, you could stay home, but what happens when you stay home? The typical, quote unquote, mental health day, staying in bed doesn't reduce your depression, right? So what can you do when you wake up and you think, "Actually, I'd like to stay home today"? What can you then tell yourself? And so for him, it was a list of the top 10 reasons why you should go to work when you don't want to.

Simon Sinek 8:58 Mm.

Amy Morin 8:58 And he would leave it on his nightstand. So when he would wake up in the morning and think, "Ah, if I just stayed in bed today, I'd feel better," he'd read over that list, try to talk himself into, "Yep, I don't wanna go to work, but it's good for me, and I'm gonna do it

Amy Morin 9:10 anyway."

Simon Sinek 9:10 I love this because there is an irony in all of our solutions, which again, well-intended and, you know, supportive environment. I, I need a mental health day.

Amy Morin 9:20 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 9:20 And I'm gonna stay home, and it'll make me feel worse.

Amy Morin 9:23 Right.

Simon Sinek 9:24 Now, you know, if somebody's lying and they go to the beach, I mean, more power to them. That's probably really good.

Amy Morin 9:28 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 9:28 That's a real mental health day.

Amy Morin 9:30 Right.

Simon Sinek 9:30 Like, play hooky and go to the beach. That's awesome.

Amy Morin 9:33 Right.

Simon Sinek 9:33 But there is a great irony in this, which is I need... I'm overwhelmed at work. I need a mental health day, so I'm gonna stay home, sit in bed, eat Häagen-Dazs and watch movies and feel worse at the end of the day. Why are we choosing solutions that we think will help that actually either do nothing or make it worse?

Amy Morin 9:54 A lot of it's about what's gonna make me feel better right now. So for somebody who says, "I don't wanna go to work," well, sure, at 9:00 AM when you're watching TV or you're still sleeping, maybe you feel a little better than if you're in that boring meeting in the office or you're faced with a pile of paperwork. Of course, though, that coping strategy creates longer term problems. The avoidance doesn't make it go away. So on Tuesday when you wake up in the morning, you don't suddenly feel like, "I can't wait to go to work today."

Simon Sinek 10:19 Yeah.

Amy Morin 10:19 It often becomes more difficult. But I think it's really about a lot of the coping skills we reach for sometimes make us feel better in the moment-

Simon Sinek 10:26 Yeah

Amy Morin 10:27 ... but then create bigger problems in the long term.

Simon Sinek 10:29 Let's scale it back a little bit. So somebody who's clinically depressed, that's a diagnosis.

Amy Morin 10:33 Yep.

Simon Sinek 10:33 I mean, that's a thing. But what we're talking about, I think, is a l- is the more pervasive feeling that people have that I am dealing with my mental health, or I have mental health challenges, which is there's no diagnosable issue there.

Amy Morin 10:48 Right.

Simon Sinek 10:49 There's, you know, the ups and downs of life. Some of the examples you were talking about, you know, you're overwhelmed, you don't feel like going to work. I'm like, wait a minute. I sometimes wake up and I don't w- go to work. Do, do I have mental health issues?

Amy Morin 11:01 Right.

Simon Sinek 11:02 You know? And now I'm diagnosing myself because I hear that somebody else who does have mental fitness challenges... A- again, I'm so fascinated. It's like, why is your business booming? You know?

Amy Morin 11:14 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 11:14 It's like, it, it shouldn't... I wouldn't want it to be, no offense. So, like, I want you to do very well. I want you to hang a sign out the door saying, "I'll help you with your mental health," and nobody knocks, you know?

Amy Morin 11:23 Yes. And, and of course that would be the dream.

Simon Sinek 11:26 [laughs]

Amy Morin 11:26 And I think, say, 10, 15 years ago, it was really about if you had a mental illness, so your doctor might send you to therapy.

Simon Sinek 11:34 Right.

Amy Morin 11:35 In today's world of social media and influencers who are often talking about these issues and using labels incorrectly, and we're talking so much about mental health-

Simon Sinek 11:45 Yep

Amy Morin 11:45 ... that people are going to therapy not because they're sick, but because they're, say, have a narcissistic ex-boyfriend that was gaslighting them. And so they say, "Gosh, you know, I, I'm dealing with this. I need to talk to somebody about it." And then the problem with my industry is, is your insurance company's gonna pay me a pretty small amount to see you, but if I charge you out of pocket, I can charge a lot more money. So it used to be that therapists only saw people with a mental illness because they were getting reimbursement from insurance companies. Now a lot of therapists are charging a private pay, so you don't necessarily have to have a mental illness. You might just be dealing with something that you saw on social media.

Simon Sinek 12:22 And I know I'm gonna get in trouble for this, but I'd like you to react to it, even if I get in trouble for it. There's a financial disincentive for a therapist to get you better. You know, because you, you, they, most therapists don't make passive income. They only make active income. I have to work to make money. And so getting new clients is hard. Keeping clients is easier

Amy Morin 12:40 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 12:41 If you come in and say, "I need your help for X," then we're gonna keep this going. I remember my sister, I've talked about it, we did a podcast episode on it. She, she went through a real tragedy. She lost her husband at a very young age, and you can relate.

Amy Morin 12:54 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 12:54 And, um, ironically, she was seeing a, a therapist p- prior because she was dealing with anxiety that she might lose somebody-

Amy Morin 13:03 Mm

Simon Sinek 13:03 ... and it just weirdly happened.

Amy Morin 13:05 Wow.

Simon Sinek 13:05 And so she had the therapist already, and then, like, she did all the other things as well in addition to the therapy, which, you, you know, she pushed herself to go out. She spent time with friends. She spent time with family. She eventually got back on the horse and, like, really felt good.

Amy Morin 13:20 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 13:20 And she said to her therapist, "I think... You know what? I've, this has been, you've been amazing, and I think, I think I'm good. I'm, I'm done." And the therapist said, "I don't think you should stop." And my sister was like, "No, no, I feel really good, and I've, like, felt really good for... Like, it's, um, I've got less to talk to you about." And the therapist was like, "No, no, I, I think you're being foolish. I think you should keep going." And I was like... And by the way, good therapist.

Amy Morin 13:42 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 13:42 Right? But the, where my sister's eye says, "I'm healthy. I don't need the therapy," what the therapist hears is, "I'm losing money. I'm losing a client," rather than, "Yippee for me, I helped someone get better." Right? And so are therapists part of the problem of our inability to move through some of the struggles we're having? We're gonna get a lot of flack on this. [laughs]

Amy Morin 14:07 Well, certainly there, certainly that's-

Simon Sinek 14:09 Not all therapists.

Amy Morin 14:10 Right.

Simon Sinek 14:11 But I understand that. It's not fun losing a client. W- no matter what you do, if you work for an ad agency or a law firm, like, nobody wants to lose clients.

Amy Morin 14:18 Right. And certainly that's an example of one, right? And, and there is the pressure to say, "I need an income, so how do I keep people coming back?"

Simon Sinek 14:28 It's not, it's not nefarious. It's not evil.

Amy Morin 14:31 Right. Right.

Simon Sinek 14:31 It's just, like, y- you know, they may genuinely wanna help people, but you keep them on the-

Amy Morin 14:35 Right

Simon Sinek 14:36 ... keep them on the books.

Amy Morin 14:36 And on the flip side of that, I mean, we get plenty of people too who will be like, "You know, I'm better. I don't need to come back to therapy." And we'll have that honest conversation of, "Well, maybe you have bipolar and you're having a good week-

Simon Sinek 14:47 [laughs]

Amy Morin 14:47 ... but you're not cured." And to at least educate them on, you know, or how would you know if you needed to come back in the future?

Simon Sinek 14:54 Yeah.

Amy Morin 14:54 What do you anticipate next week? And you'll space out your sessions. Maybe go ahead, we'll see you again next month instead of next week, and we'll see how you're doing. But if you need me in the meantime, you could call.

Simon Sinek 15:04 Yeah.

Amy Morin 15:04 So that when people hit the, the dip, say, in their mood, that they're still prepared and we don't leave them high and dry. However, obviously there are cases where therapists will say, "You know, if I keep you on a little longer, if I can convince you, then that's one less person I have to go find and bring in." [upbeat music]

Simon Sinek 15:25 Instead of doing a straight ad read, we're pioneering something called an ad with authenticity. We want our ads to have valuable content for you, the listener, and this ad with authenticity is brought to you by SAP. Having a long tenure at one company gets a bad rap these days, like it means you've stopped growing or something. But David Robinson, he's been at SAP for over 20 years, and he'd argue it's the total opposite. He's growing more now than ever. Maybe he's onto something. I, I've worked with you guys in the past, and I've always been impressed with the tenure of people and the pride that people have.

Speaker 16:06 Sure.

Simon Sinek 16:07 And I think young people confuse... They, they're like, "I would never stay at a company for a long time. Why would you ever?" If you feel like the company has your back, if you feel like the company is trying to help you grow, you won't actually notice the time pass.

Speaker 16:19 It should not be seen as a negative to be at a place like SAP for this long. If you're moving quickly and you have two to three-year stints at, at technology firms, that's great. If you're able to be at the same firm for 20 years, that's great. It's about taking the very best of those different types of experiences. You're showcasing the value of either having lots of experiences at many places or the experience that you have gathered over time at one place.

Simon Sinek 16:46 If you choose a strategy of jumping, you choose a strategy of staying.

Speaker 16:49 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 16:49 I think the standard should be or has to be, am I growing?

Speaker 16:52 Yeah. I would agree with that, and it's, it's healthy 'cause it creates that diversity of thought, diversity of experience, um, and that has to do with not just how tenured you are-

Simon Sinek 17:02 Yeah

Speaker 17:02 ... but how many opportunities have you been presented over time and how well have you taken advantage of those opportunities?

Simon Sinek 17:09 Yes. That's a good standard. [upbeat music]

Simon Sinek 17:17 Let's get personal, if you don't mind.

Amy Morin 17:18 Sure.

Simon Sinek 17:18 One of the things I think you, that makes you so qualified for this conversation is not because you're a trained clinician. What makes you so qualified is you've gone through it. You lost your mother unexpectedly, a healthy woman who... How did she die?

Amy Morin 17:32 She had a brain aneurysm that ruptured.

Simon Sinek 17:34 Brain aneurysm just out of the blue, right?

Amy Morin 17:35 Right. Yep.

Simon Sinek 17:35 Young, young woman, right?

Amy Morin 17:36 Yep, 51.

Simon Sinek 17:37 And then you lose your husband at a young age?

Amy Morin 17:41 Yeah, he was 26.

Simon Sinek 17:42 Just heart attack?

Amy Morin 17:43 Heart attack at 26.

Simon Sinek 17:44 Healthy guy?

Amy Morin 17:45 Mm-hmm. Yep.

Simon Sinek 17:46 Well, he lost his father before that, right?

Amy Morin 17:48 I got remarried a couple of years later.

Simon Sinek 17:49 Oh, right. That's-

Amy Morin 17:50 And as soon as I got remarried, my father-in-law was diagnosed with terminal cancer.

Simon Sinek 17:53 Right. And so, like, you have every reason to be depressed and fear, have a genuine fear of falling in love-

Amy Morin 18:01 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 18:01 ... or loving anyone, forget about falling, for loving anyone because everybody you love seems to fall away, seems to die.

Amy Morin 18:07 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 18:08 That there's a very good reasons to, to not wanna get out of bed in the morning.

Amy Morin 18:12 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 18:13 And so I think what makes you the most credible person to have this argument is that it is not an academic argument. It's that you found a way to find happiness, to be mentally fit, and followed an, I think fair to say, an untraditional route based on the current standards. How did you do it?

Amy Morin 18:33 It, it was a lot of trial and error, a lot of work.

Simon Sinek 18:37 Why didn't you go the traditional route?

Amy Morin 18:41 It depends what you mean by traditional route.

Simon Sinek 18:44 All the things we've been discussing.

Amy Morin 18:46 Okay

Simon Sinek 18:46 You know, sort of not wanting to go to work or taking your mental health days. And by the way, everybody would have given them to you, and gladly, and felt supportive of you because y- what you went through was awful.

Amy Morin 18:57 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 18:57 So at any one of those periods, I'm sure, you know, whoever you worked for at the time would've been like, "Yes, yes, yes, take all the time you need," right? 'Cause that makes sense. I don't know if you were in therapy at the time.

Amy Morin 19:08 So funnily enough, I worked for a, a mental health agency. I was a therapist. I was 22 when I became a therapist. I was 23 when my mom passed away, and I was able to take two weeks off from work. It was just so sudden and unexpected, even though I was an adult. And then when my husband died, it was the three-year anniversary to the day-

Simon Sinek 19:25 Oof

Amy Morin 19:25 ... of when my mother had died, and I had three days of bereavement time as a therapist at the mental health agency where I worked.

Simon Sinek 19:31 Mental health agency gave you three days off.

Amy Morin 19:33 Correct.

Simon Sinek 19:35 Right.

Amy Morin 19:36 And I-

Simon Sinek 19:37 The irony is thick

Amy Morin 19:37 ... applied for short-term disability and got denied 'cause they don't cover grief, and-

Simon Sinek 19:44 Right

Amy Morin 19:44 ... was able to go back and see my primary care doctor, and she diagnosed me with acute stress disorder, which is the precursor to PTSD, because I was there when my husband died, and that bought me two months of short-term disability. And then I had to go back to work. It really wasn't a choice. I didn't have a fallback plan. I had a mortgage to pay. My husband and I had already bought a house. I don't have wealthy family who could say, you know, "We'll pay your mortgage while you..."

Simon Sinek 20:15 Mm-hmm.

Amy Morin 20:15 And he and I had bought the house, obviously assuming we were gonna have two streams of income.

Simon Sinek 20:19 Mm-hmm.

Amy Morin 20:20 So not only did I have to go back to work, but if I didn't wanna move and I didn't wanna lose my house, I was gonna have to figure out what else am I gonna do.

Simon Sinek 20:28 Mm-hmm.

Amy Morin 20:28 And I had encountered this other woman who had to move shortly after she lost her fiance. And the thought of packing up my house in, like, the lowest moments of my life, and then having to also figure out where am I gonna live seemed more unbearable than saying, "I will work two jobs. I will figure this out." And that's, I guess, what got me up in the morning, is I said, "I don't want my life to get worse. I want it to get better." And as a therapist, I had seen what happens to people if they went through tough times and they didn't r- like, work through the pain.

Simon Sinek 21:00 Mm.

Amy Morin 21:00 So many people, like, bought into that lie of time heals, and they would come in 10 years after something bad happened and they'd say, "Amy, how come I don't feel any better? It's been 10 years since I lost somebody," or, "10 years since this traumatic thing happened, and my life isn't better." And I didn't wanna be that person who said, "Yeah, I'm now 36, 10 years after I lost my husband, and my life still isn't good." And so it was a choice every day of what am I gonna do? What kind of a life do I wanna build? How do I let myself feel awful and go through all of the pain, but also then how do I have some hope that life could get better, and what do I want the next chapter to look like?

Simon Sinek 21:37 Okay. There's a lot to unpack there. How do you find hope when the, the genuine sadness and little D depression-

Amy Morin 21:53 Yeah

Simon Sinek 21:54 ... are real? And I say little D meaning not a clinical diagnosis, dealing with a traumatic event.

Amy Morin 21:59 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 21:59 And the stress of having to, like, g- have two jobs, which is not a, a good option. It's the lesser of two evils. It's the less bad option-

Amy Morin 22:11 Right

Simon Sinek 22:11 ... rather than packing up a house. How did you envision, how did you imagine hope? Like, where did the hope come from?

Amy Morin 22:19 I think I had a strong faith, and I believed, okay, there is a God, and some reason this happened to me, and perhaps there's a way to get through it. And I also thought, you know, maybe this is my opportunity.

Simon Sinek 22:33 Mm.

Amy Morin 22:33 Like, I can either rise to the occasion and do my best, or I can just stay crying on the bathroom floor, and 10 years from now be like, "Yeah, I'm not f- feeling any better." Just felt like that was a choice in life of do I wanna make the best of this terrible hand I was dealt? Not to say, "Gee, I'm grateful that this happened." I'm not. All these years later, I'm not grateful that I went through that. But on the other hand, it felt like, okay, like, for whatever reason, this is the lot you were given, and you can do this. If you're gonna try to rise to the occasion, turn this into a comeback, try to make something of your life, it's now or never. And I think not having that luxury of saying, "I'm gonna wait a while," or, "I have family that's gonna bail me out," or, "I'm gonna take a year off," really made me say, "Do it," and I did it.

Simon Sinek 23:22 And let's be clear. You do need time to do nothing and to grieve.

Amy Morin 23:25 Yep.

Simon Sinek 23:25 You know, we're not saying, like, on day one, this is the attitude.

Amy Morin 23:28 Correct.

Simon Sinek 23:28 I mean, there is a time period-

Amy Morin 23:30 Yep

Simon Sinek 23:30 ... where you do grieve. You, you do stay in bed.

Amy Morin 23:33 Yep.

Simon Sinek 23:34 You embrace sadness. You, you don't have to be functional, and I'm s- assuming it's slightly different for everyone. But at some point, not two, three, four, five years later, m- way before that, there's a choice that's made of I gotta move through this.

Amy Morin 23:47 Right.

Simon Sinek 23:48 And it is a choice.

Amy Morin 23:49 It is. And early on, there's that tendency to stay busy.

Simon Sinek 23:53 Yeah.

Amy Morin 23:53 We even, like, compliment people. When somebody's going through something tough and you say, like, "How are you doing?" They say, "Oh, I'm just staying busy." I'm like, "That's great." Right?

Simon Sinek 24:00 That's avoidant. That's avoidant though, right?

Amy Morin 24:01 [laughs] Right.

Simon Sinek 24:02 Distracting yourself.

Amy Morin 24:03 And right, and that-

Simon Sinek 24:04 Yeah

Amy Morin 24:04 ... that's a skill to use sometimes. If I were going into my therapy office to be a therapist, I needed to distract myself sometimes, and I'm really sad. I have therapy clients coming in in 10 minutes. Distracting myself's a wonderful skill in that moment, but if I did that in my entire life, I'd still be stuck in that place. And so I think it was about allowing myself to be sad when I could.

Simon Sinek 24:24 Mm-hmm.

Amy Morin 24:24 I'd come home from work, and it's okay to just eat a TV dinner on the couch and let yourself cry. And then having those other times where I'd say, "Okay, I'm coming into the weekend. I have zero plans, nothing going on. I could stay in bed all weekend, or maybe I'll just stay in bed until A little later on Saturday morning, but then I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna say, "What else am I gonna do with my day? Go for a walk, call somebody, go do something."

Simon Sinek 24:46 I love this because it's not an all-or-nothing plan.

Amy Morin 24:48 Right.

Simon Sinek 24:49 You're not saying, "You can't stay in bed," but you're also not saying, "You, you are allowed to stay in bed." What you're saying is, "You know what? I'll meet you halfway."

Amy Morin 24:56 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 24:56 "I'm gonna stay in bed a little longer, but then at 11:00, up and at 'em."

Amy Morin 25:01 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 25:01 And there's an element of grace in there, right? Which is you're not giving in to your desires to do nothing. You're compromising with your desires to do nothing.

Amy Morin 25:09 Right 'cause there's a balance to be had between, yes, I'm gonna sit with this feeling-

Simon Sinek 25:13 Yeah

Amy Morin 25:13 ... for a while, but then also I have the ability to change how I feel. If I stayed in bed all day on a bad day-

Simon Sinek 25:19 Yeah

Amy Morin 25:19 ... it's not like at 2:00 PM I'm like, "Ooh, I feel great."

Simon Sinek 25:22 Yeah.

Amy Morin 25:22 But if I push myself at 11:00 AM to get up and go for a walk, just changing my environment and doing something different can shift my mood. And grief is all about that, finding that balance of, okay, do I have the space and the time and the ability to let myself be sad right now?

Simon Sinek 25:36 Mm-hmm.

Amy Morin 25:36 When I was at work, I couldn't do that. In between therapy clients, I'm not gonna cry in the 10 minutes that I had. I had to be functional, but in the evenings, the weekends, I could say, "Yeah, I'm just gonna do something sad."

Simon Sinek 25:46 Is that, is that doable? Can human beings schedule time for feelings? 'Cause it does sneak up on you sometimes.

Amy Morin 25:52 It certainly does, right? I'll be in aisle seven of the grocery store and I'll see one of Lincoln's favorite foods, and I'll think, "Oh, how sad." I could be crying in the grocery store and it's, it's not something that I've scheduled or anything like that. But on the other hand, when that emotion comes over me, if I'm about to walk into a meeting with a therapy client, I can say, "This isn't helpful right now. I'll let myself feel that later. What am I gonna do right now?" And it might be, "I'm gonna do something that makes me happy. I'm gonna call somebody real quick who is gonna tell me something uplifting. I'm gonna open up my phone and look at happy pictures for a few minutes to try to boost my mood so that I can function right now in the moment."

Simon Sinek 26:27 So I wanna be clear why I wanna talk to you. I love extreme examples 'cause in extreme examples, the, the lessons are just more... They're just easier to see. They're clearer. And I consider what you've gone through and how you've healed and, and protected your mental fitness a pretty extreme example. Getting one of those things is pretty awful, and just getting battered over the course of a very short period of time is, is unfair. At least I think that's probably how it felt. The reason I, I think these things are so important because if these techniques work for you, then they can work for somebody who's struggling with a difficult boss, or thinks that they're unattractive and nobody wants to date them, or they're just not good enough for a promotion. You know, some of the sort of more everyday anxieties that we're dealing with that people may confuse with mental health challenges, or it feels like a mental health challenge. I think the thing that I'm really most struck by and drawn to is this very difficult thing to do, and that's what I wanna talk about next, this very difficult thing to do to lean into the effort.

Amy Morin 27:28 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 27:28 To lean into, like, when you're lazy and don't wanna go to the gym, when you don't wanna see people and you're feeling pretty antisocial, like, how do you change your mindset to force yourself, and that's kinda what it is sometimes-

Amy Morin 27:41 Yep

Simon Sinek 27:41 ... to force yourself to go do the thing that you really, really, really don't wanna do? And I think this speaks to other things that we do in our lives. Having the difficult conversation that you really don't wanna have. You know? Leaning into a tension that you really don't wanna lean into because avoidance and ignoring and ghosting and pretending or quitting is just easier. Which is why I think it's a common strategy because in the short term, it works just fine.

Amy Morin 28:09 Right.

Simon Sinek 28:10 It absolutely works. You know, ghosting the ex after dating them for six months, for the next month, two weeks, absolutely perfect strategy.

Amy Morin 28:21 Yep.

Simon Sinek 28:22 Dot, dot, dot. So please wax philosophical-

Amy Morin 28:26 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 28:26 ... about both those things, which is what are... We understand the short-term benefits of some of those strategies. What are the long-term liabilities? Why don't we recommend those things? The leaning out, the giving up, the not having the conversation, the ghosting. Why do we not advocate those things if they work in the short term? [laughs]

Amy Morin 28:44 Because

Amy Morin 28:45 those things don't go away. So a lot of times we forget to differentiate between, like, solving the problem or versus solving how we feel about the problem. So if I have a, a stack of bills on the table, maybe it makes me anxious to sit down and, and open the envelopes and pay the bills. But if I don't address them, then obviously the bills are still gonna be there tomorrow. My tendency might be, "Yeah, but I feel anxious right now, so I'm gonna address how I feel and I'm gonna solve my feeling. So then I'll just push that away. I'm gonna go watch some Netflix and pretend it doesn't exist." And I think when we tackle issues in our life from the wrong angle, we don't ask ourself often enough, "Do I need to solve how I feel or solve the problem itself?" And when we take the wrong approach, everything gets messed up, and sometimes we do it the other way around. So somebody will say, "My husband drinks too much." Well, in that case, you might wanna say, "Okay, that causes me some anxiety, but what is it I try to solve? Well, I tell him not to. I pour the alcohol out." And we're trying to solve the problem, and it's not our problem to solve. As opposed to, "I'm gonna learn how to manage my anxiety about this," or, "I'm gonna try to approach this from something I can control, which is my own behavior, instead I'm gonna focus on what I can't control, which is how somebody else behaves. Because if I can control you, then I don't have to control my feelings."

Simon Sinek 30:01 Okay. I have to re... I have to highlight this and double-click this. This is so good, right? This is so good. Which is when we have feelings for things we can control, I think your bills example is a great example, we work to solve the feeling and not solve the problem. Which is... And, and I think breakups are the same and stuff. Like, we solve the feeling, "I want out," check. But we don't solve the problem of closure and narrative and clinging onto things and all you do is talk about it every time when you go out with your friends to the point they don't wanna hear it anymore. So I love this. If you can solve the problem, solve the problem, not the feelings. And if you can't solve the problem, literally it's out of your control, manage your feelings because you can't solve the problem. This is, this is huge, and that confusion, it's like light bulbs are popping up for me when people talk about their mental health challenges. So we've talked about how you found hope. We talked about confusing our feelings for solutions and how we have to solve one and, and manage the other. Narrative

Amy Morin 30:58 Yeah

Simon Sinek 30:59 The stories we tell ourselves, this is probably one of the biggest ones of all. And when I turn on social media, what I hear is people giving advice reinforcing that you can tell yourself these stories that actually aren't helping you. And perpetuating, to your point, what we made right at the beginning, which is with all this mental health advice we're getting, why isn't mental health getting better? Mindset is essential.

Amy Morin 31:30 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 31:30 And faith in something, belief in something, whether it's God or a positive future, or my friends or my family. Can you tell me the story you told yourself when you were in despair and you were shattered? What was the story, and then how did you change to the new story when the time was right to start leaning into healing-

Amy Morin 31:57 Mm

Simon Sinek 31:57 ... rather than mourning?

Amy Morin 31:58 Oh, good question. I think for several years the story was kind of like, "Isn't this a tragedy that you, in your 20s, lost your two favorite people, and life will probably never be good again?" And there was a time where I believed that, and I thought, "Oof, how do you make life good again?" And it felt like I was going through the motions. And at some point I thought, "Or this could be an amazing comeback story of the new life that I'm gonna create," but in order to do that, like I better get out of bed and go do those things. I better figure out what would I want the next chapter to look like, and it's not just going to land on my table. I'm gonna have to actually create a new life. And so I started to do things. I got a motorcycle license and a motorcycle, and I thought, "Ooh, [laughs] this is different." And Lincoln and I have been foster parents, so it was a question of do I still wanna be a foster mom if I'm by myself? Like, which things do I wanna continue in my life, and what things do I wanna give up? And ultimately decided I'll be a single foster parent at some point, and I did that. And I wanted my story, the next chapter of my story, to be of somebody who had been through tough things, yet created this beautiful life and was able to go out and, and do incredible things that I probably wouldn't have done otherwise. And while it wasn't the life I chose, it was like a new life that I created despite what I'd been through.

Simon Sinek 33:24 Why? I mean, I don't mean to be flippant about it.

Amy Morin 33:26 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 33:26 But like, why did you want that to be your story?

Amy Morin 33:30 Because I think the alternative felt like, I'm 26. Am I gonna just sit around till I'm 86 and think, "Oof, [laughs] that's a long life to live"? And I just felt like I had two choices. I can either create something completely different from what I had, what I had hoped for, or I could just keep clinging to, "Isn't it sad I didn't get the life I wanted?"

Simon Sinek 33:52 I love this idea of I'm gonna make the best comeback story ever, which is different from I'm going to sabotage my work, my ex-boyfriend, my ex-girlfriend's life so I can feel better.

Amy Morin 34:05 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 34:05 There's an accountability, which is it's gonna be my comeback story about how I choose to live my life, as opposed to ruining their lives so I can feel better. That's not the comeback story.

Amy Morin 34:13 Right.

Simon Sinek 34:14 The problem is the mindset of I'm gonna make this the greatest comeback ever could, could go in slightly different directions. [laughs]

Amy Morin 34:20 You're absolutely right.

Simon Sinek 34:21 [laughs]

Amy Morin 34:21 And, and I think the comeback story sometimes isn't about you get rejected for something. Well, maybe, maybe you're never going to be a famous actor, or never you're gonna do the thing that you wanted, but your comeback story could still be, "I did this other thing and still created a wonderful life for myself in a different way."

Simon Sinek 34:39 I love this, which is, um, if you're writing your own movie, like if you're just unhappy the whole time, it's a boring movie.

Amy Morin 34:47 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 34:48 Right? Like all judgment aside, that's a boring movie, right?

Amy Morin 34:51 Right.

Simon Sinek 34:52 But what we wanna watch a movie about is somebody who's gone through it and takes it upon themself and inspires us, the viewers, and makes us sort of find a way through the difficulty. And again, yours is an extreme example, but you lose a job, you lose a relationship, something just doesn't go the way you want it to. The project doesn't hit the numbers that you were hoping for. I mean, there's a million things that we can beat ourselves up about, but I'm gonna make this the greatest comeback story, which goes... Then

Simon Sinek 35:20 I want to ask you a, a... It's an uncomfortable question, and I a- I apologize for that. However, you do not want to relive any of the things that you have lived, those tragedies.

Amy Morin 35:32 Right.

Simon Sinek 35:32 Clearly. You wish they'd never happened, and you definitely do not want any of them to happen again.

Amy Morin 35:39 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 35:39 Nor do you wish them upon anyone else.

Amy Morin 35:41 Yep.

Simon Sinek 35:42 However, what about you has changed because of those things that deep down inside, even though the words are uncomfortable, you're glad they happened?

Amy Morin 35:53 Ooh, good question, too. So I grew up incredibly shy, and I mean socially anxious for sure, but probably as a kid could've been diagnosed with selective mutism. I didn't talk for years, and I really had no desire. College, grad school even, I really didn't talk much at all, and I surrounded myself with people who loved to talk, and that made it really easy to be the quiet person in the room. And I think I would've-

Simon Sinek 36:22 Good strategy. [laughs]

Amy Morin 36:23 And I think I would have stayed that way. I had friends who talked for me. To this day, if we go to a restaurant, they will still ask like for something for me, my childhood friends, my sister, and that worked really well. And public speaking would've been my number one fear. I gave the eulogy at my husband's funeral, and in that moment I was like, "I don't care if I embarrass myself, if I stumble over my words. Like I don't care how I sound. It's not about me. It's about a couple of stories about him that I wanted people to hear." And let me tell you, now I'm like, oh, public speaking, not the biggest fear in the world anymore. And I can do it without being so concerned about how I look, how I sound. Like, so many of my insecurities are no longer there. I think, "Well, I've been through the most painful things I would've ever imagined, losing two of my favorite people. Go ahead, insult me." [laughs] Like, it's not going to sting. I've been through the worst of the worst, so-

Simon Sinek 37:20 Yeah, a negative review just doesn't do it anymore.

Amy Morin 37:22 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 37:22 [laughs]

Amy Morin 37:22 Go ahead and do that. I'm okay now. But years ago, those little things would've been something I dwelled on, and I would've thought about, and I would've rehashed and ruminated on. Even as a therapist, it would've really bothered me. But I can say now I don't really sweat those small things anymore.

Simon Sinek 37:38 Again, I'll ask the question, sort of, I never want those things to happen again, but I'm glad they happened because...

Amy Morin 37:47 Because I am now a much more brave and confident person who was able to say, "I'm not going to let life be passive, but I'm gonna create the very best life that I can for myself." And I take more risks. I'm the kind of person who says, "If it doesn't work out, that's okay." Like, I don't need to have all the answers because I'll figure it out along the way, and I wasn't like that before.

Simon Sinek 38:13 This is one of the things I think leaning into hardship is, I think, the greatest gift, which is life is balanced always. Nature abhors a vacuum and seeks equilibrium whenever possible. And so all good things have some sort of cost associated with them.

Amy Morin 38:33 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 38:33 You know? Congratulations, you're fabulously wealthy, and you have no relationship with your children, right?

Amy Morin 38:37 Yep.

Simon Sinek 38:37 Like, whatever the cost is. And for some people, those costs are worth it. It's not for me to judge, right? But there is a cost for the things we get, but there's also benefits to the things we lose. My practice is to always... I always play the equation. So when something great happens to me and I'm like, "I'm the best. I'm amazing. Look how awesome I am," I always remind myself, "Okay, what was the cost for this?" It keeps me humble, but also just reminds me, don't take it for granted. And if you want this again, then you're gonna have to pay that. You know? There's no entitlement here. So I always remind myself that. And when bad things happen, even though it sucks in the moment and I can't play this game right after it happens-

Amy Morin 39:20 Right

Simon Sinek 39:20 ... it's too soon. I have to allow s- for anger or frustration or sadness or whatever the feeling I have towards the thing is, and at some reasonable period of time say, "Okay, what am I grateful for here?"

Amy Morin 39:32 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 39:33 To me, my mental fitness is good because I keep that, that equation balanced at all times.

Simon Sinek 39:42 Let's talk about victim. I'd love you to wax philosophical based on the clients you see, but also just you're a consumer of, of the world and social media. I see it more, and maybe I'm just more sensitive to it because mental health is such a, a topic and, and everybody, they confuse mental health problems with having feelings. But this idea of being the victim, playing the victim, I spoke to a th- a s- a social worker recently, and they said something that really surprised me. I wrote about this. They, they said something that really surprised me. They said, "Playing the victim is very powerful and feels great." Let's not confuse playing the victim and being a victim.

Amy Morin 40:19 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 40:19 Being a victim is when you are targeted by someone, they do something to you, abuse, a crime, something like that, or you are the victim of some hurricane. You are a victim. Then there's, that's being a victim. Then you are playing the victim. "The world is doing this to me. That person is doing this to me when..." You know, "My boss is out to get me," which it does exist, but I wouldn't say it's the majority of the time that somebody's targeting somebody. Wax philosophical if I'm overreacting or there seems to be a correlation with the mental health challenges that so many people are facing today with the... Is it insensitive to call it a trend? Of playing the victim.

Amy Morin 41:05 You're absolutely right. We see it more on social media than ever in terms of relationship ends. "Well, it's 'cause my ex was a narcissist," right?

Simon Sinek 41:13 It's amazing how many exes are narcissists, by the way.

Amy Morin 41:16 Suddenly, right? [laughs]

Simon Sinek 41:17 Just, like, I know narcissism is a diagnosable thing.

Amy Morin 41:19 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 41:20 And what percentage of the population are narcissists, do we know? It's probably pretty small.

Amy Morin 41:24 It is tiny. But-

Simon Sinek 41:25 You know, 5% maybe-

Amy Morin 41:26 Yeah

Simon Sinek 41:27 ... that are diagnosable narcissists, but my goodness, there's an explosion of narcissism. [laughs]

Amy Morin 41:32 Exactly, because it feels better to say it's somebody else's fault, right? "I was a victim of somebody who took advantage." And whenever we get into this victimhood, it correlates with self-pity and just thinking, "I don't have the skills, tools, and resources to get through something." We underestimate ourselves. We overestimate a challenge. We overestimate how difficult things were. We tell ourselves that story of, "Well, I didn't have a choice. I couldn't make things better then, and I still don't have a choice now." And the more that we get stuck in that cycle, the more we find excuses to say, "And so I don't have to change." So whether it's I call a friend and I just complain about my boss all day long to my friend, so they're like, "Wow, you shouldn't be treated like this. This must be awful to be you." Like, "Yeah. That, that's right. It does feel awful to be me." And pow-

Simon Sinek 42:19 Feels awesome.

Amy Morin 42:19 Right. It's empowering for a moment to think-

Simon Sinek 42:22 Yeah

Amy Morin 42:22 ... "And I'm justified to stay stuck." And that's what we see then, people just stay stuck. And I'll see it in my therapy office. People come in and they say, you know, "This is awful. Here's my situation." And they don't really wanna solve any of the problems in their life.

Simon Sinek 42:35 Mm-hmm.

Amy Morin 42:35 They wanna come back next week and tell me again, and see how awful it is. And there's definitely value in talking about your feelings, being heard to say, "Yes, that is awful. It's unfair that you're in this situation," but some people just wanna stay stuck there.

Simon Sinek 42:50 Why do people wanna stay stuck? We're not seeking help. We're seeking validation for our narrative.

Amy Morin 42:53 Right.

Simon Sinek 42:54 And if my narrative is validated, then I must be right.

Amy Morin 42:56 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 42:56 So I'm gonna stay here because it helps me feel better, kinda.

Amy Morin 43:01 Right. And it's uncomfortable

Simon Sinek 43:03 I don't have a problem with people being the victim in the short term

Amy Morin 43:05 Yeah

Simon Sinek 43:05 Because it's like mourning, it's like anger. It's a feeling, it's a venting. I don't have a pr- problem with people venting. You wanna call somebody, "I hate my boss, I hate work." Healthy venting is a good thing. We're not talking about that.

Amy Morin 43:15 Right

Simon Sinek 43:15 We're talking about, okay, got it. The relat- It does feel better when the relationship collapses to blame the other person for it, and you should do that. But there's a point at which, again, okay, now I need to, like, take some accountability.

Amy Morin 43:29 Yeah

Simon Sinek 43:29 Is that really what it is? Is be- is playing the victim easier because then I don't actually have to look at myself and be like, "You know what? I'm not such a great catch."

Amy Morin 43:37 Yeah

Simon Sinek 43:37 "You know what? I wasn't such a great partner in my relationship. Eh, maybe I poured gas on this fire." You know? Is that the reason we don't like it?

Amy Morin 43:46 Yeah, the other person was at fault, so therefore I'm the victim versus, ooh, how did I get there? And let's say you were in a really bad relationship. Well, like, what were the steps along the way that made you stay? Or there had to have been some red flags along the way. What was it about me that decided that I'll tolerate it one more day, I'll stay in this situation for, for longer, and then I get mad at the end and I'm resentful. So I think it's really about acknowledging, what's my personal responsibility, and if I wanna do something different, I'm gonna have to be uncomfortable. You will usually choose familiar pain over the unknown every single time unless we get proactive about it. Like, I know what this is, and I'm used to it, so therefore I'll keep tolerating it versus, okay, I'm gonna try something else. It's gonna be painful as well, and I don't know what that pain's gonna feel like or how painful it's gonna be, but I'm willing to try.

Simon Sinek 44:38 I know somebody who is very attracted to very wealthy men. And some of them are wonderful human beings, and they're great connections, and every time she starts dating, they're always the perfect person, which we all have that when we first meet somebody, which is great. And it doesn't work out, and, uh, and then she blames them, and I see this pattern. I've known her for a long time, and it's the same pattern over and over and over and over again. And when you talk about staying in a relationship, and I've been there. I've, I mean, I'm... This is not... Again, there's no judgment here because I've, I've done the same thing. I've been in something, and I knew all the red flags. It's like it was fricking semaphore every day of my life, somebody standing in front of me waving red flags, and I'm just like, "Yeah, but hold on."

Amy Morin 45:24 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 45:24 "Just look how hot they are. Look at their lifestyle that I love being a part of, or look at their wealth. Hold on a second. There's so many other things that I superficially r- prefer. Let's just not look..."

Amy Morin 45:33 Right

Simon Sinek 45:33 You know? But it's so much easier to talk about how they were toxic, and they were this, and they were that, but deep down inside, I knew I shouldn't have been dating them, and I stayed in it because, let's be honest, I was a superficial ass.

Amy Morin 45:43 Yeah

Simon Sinek 45:44 And I wanted all that stuff. And my... And until I can take accountability for the fact that that's what I was attracted to, and I wasn't really attracted to the person-

Amy Morin 45:50 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 45:51 ... you know, I'm gonna keep repeating this pattern.

Amy Morin 45:54 Yeah

Simon Sinek 45:55 How do we do that, though? I mean, it's, it's all fine and good for you and me to sit in an armchair and talk about all these, but, like, how do we break our pr- patterns? Like, what practical steps can we take to learn how to be accountable, to learn how to stop playing the victim when it feels so good?

Amy Morin 46:12 So it starts with first recognizing the patterns. Sometimes people are like, "You know what? My life isn't going very well, and I'm struggling to really figure that out," or, "I've had some bad relationships." I'd sit down, and I'd write it down. Like, what are we looking at? Maybe you've had five relationships that ended abruptly. The other person ghosted you five times. Well, let's take a look. Maybe might there be something else that's going on. Are you attracted to a certain kind of person? Anything we can get out of our heads and put on a piece of paper helps us see things differently. We see it more clearly. So if you can get out a journal and do some writing, and I'm talking about writing by hand, that affects our brain differently than when we're typing, causes us to slow things down and really look at it. And to just identify, like, what are some patterns in my life? And then you might go back, too, and think, "Well, when did this start?" Right? I don't think we have to necessarily dissect our childhoods and go through everything moment by moment, but you might find, when did I feel that before? So maybe I'm attracted to people's lifestyles. So I find these people with really exciting lifestyles, and then I overlook all the red flags. So you might think, "Well, when I was a kid, was there something that maybe I was attracted to the excitement back then? Was there, uh, something in my life? Maybe I had a mom who used to date men who also had exciting lives, too." And sometimes just connecting those dots is helpful to say, okay, this is maybe a, an emotional wound that I'm-

Simon Sinek 47:31 And it's not blaming the mother

Amy Morin 47:32 Right

Simon Sinek 47:32 It's simply recognizing it has an origin.

Amy Morin 47:35 Right

Simon Sinek 47:35 That's it. It's just an origin story.

Amy Morin 47:36 Exactly

Simon Sinek 47:37 Not a blame story

Amy Morin 47:38 And then to figure out, is there an emotional wound from my childhood? Just keep revisiting. Am I trying to heal something that I haven't healed yet, and I try to heal it by reliving it over and over? Like, if this next relationship can work out, then I'll be good, or I will have figured it out. And when people can connect some of those dots, and we can do this on our own, you don't nece- necessarily have to be in therapy, just opens your eyes. So then when you meet the next person, you might think, "Oh, am I doing it again?"

Simon Sinek 48:04 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Amy Morin 48:04 Or is it, or is this somebody I'm really attracted to? And then to be cautious of those labels. If we just label ourselves something like, "Oh, I'm always attracted to assholes," or, "I'm the asshole who's always attracting people."

Simon Sinek 48:16 Yeah

Amy Morin 48:16 Like, it's the label that then makes it true.

Simon Sinek 48:19 Yeah

Amy Morin 48:19 If I label myself as something, I'm gonna live up to that label, chances are. So if I say, "I'm the, the kind of person who sometimes does X, Y, or Z," rather than, "I am-"

Simon Sinek 48:29 I have a habit, or I have a... Yeah

Amy Morin 48:31 Then to just recognize, all right, this is my tendency, but it's not who I am. And so how might I change that next time? And if I'm somebody who ignores red flags in a relationship, well, what will I do differently next time? To just be more aware and start thinking about that. Like, what's a red flag I've ignored before? And if I spot that red flag again, how will I know that I'm trying to push it under the table, or how will I know that I'm trying to convince myself that, that I don't need to pay attention to those red flags? And it is helpful sometimes when we have a, a trusted friend in our life who can say You're doing it again, Simon, right?

Simon Sinek 49:06 Mm-hmm.

Amy Morin 49:06 The person who can say-

Simon Sinek 49:08 Mm

Amy Morin 49:08 ... "Have you thought about this?" The person that can ask you that question of-

Simon Sinek 49:10 Shut up, you don't know me.

Amy Morin 49:11 Right. Right.

Simon Sinek 49:12 [laughs]

Amy Morin 49:12 And that's why it's important to make sure it is somebody that, that you trust.

Simon Sinek 49:16 Yeah.

Amy Morin 49:16 Somebody who has that.

Simon Sinek 49:17 [laughs]

Amy Morin 49:18 'Cause when the emotion isn't attached to it, they can sometimes see things that we can't.

Simon Sinek 49:22 Yeah.

Amy Morin 49:22 Our emotions cloud our judgment. So when I meet somebody and they're so exciting, I can easily overlook their red flags.

Simon Sinek 49:28 The bit that I wanna underscore in there, which is to not use the being verb.

Amy Morin 49:32 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 49:32 Which is I am dot, dot, dot, but rather I have a tendency to.

Amy Morin 49:36 Right.

Simon Sinek 49:36 Or I've a habit or I have a pattern. It's not who you are, it's something you do.

Amy Morin 49:41 Right.

Simon Sinek 49:41 Those are very different things. And so I think th- that's a phenomenal piece of advice, which is go ahead and beat yourself up, and y- you talk about your attachment problems and your childhood trauma, blah, blah, blah, fine, but just don't use a being verb.

Amy Morin 49:53 Right. And we'll see this even with emotion. Somebody will say, "I am an anxious person." Let's just try, "I have anxiety sometimes." Or when it comes to relationships, somebody might be like, "Well, I'm an avoidant." Maybe, "I avoid people in some of my relationships," or, "I push people away sometimes," but that's not who you are. You can choose to be different in the next relationship if you want.

Simon Sinek 50:14 And the word sometimes is great. Like, I'll never-

Amy Morin 50:17 Yeah

Simon Sinek 50:17 ... meet somebody yet. Like, you know-

Amy Morin 50:19 Yeah

Simon Sinek 50:19 ... like I haven't found the person that I want yet, you know? And because I think what sometimes and yet do at the end of a sentence, and this speaks directly to narrative, which is it allows for, and it goes right back to what you were saying before, it allows for

Simon Sinek 50:30 hope. It allows for bright future simply by the sentence we construct. So clever. It's, it's so funny how when we talk about these things, none of these are very complicated.

Amy Morin 50:41 Right.

Simon Sinek 50:42 Like, these are relatively simple things to do. I wanna write down all our little lessons that we've, that we've gotten here because it's a good checklist if you're in a bad place or feel like you're stuck, like, you know, go through something, go through the, the emotions, and at some point you pull the little checklist out and like, "Okay, can I say sometimes? Am I using being verbs? You know, what's my narrative? Can I compromise with myself and stay in bed a little longer, but not all day?" Like, I, I loved it that mental health or let's call it mental fitness... Actually, the minute you call it mental fitness-

Amy Morin 51:12 Yeah

Simon Sinek 51:12 ... the whole thing I... We talk about checklists. I mean, it's like having a workout. First I'm gonna do arms, then I'm gonna do legs. Ugh, I don't feel like doing core today. I'll do it tomorrow. You know? It's a checklist. And you go through the checklist, and what happens is you get fit.

Amy Morin 51:29 Right.

Simon Sinek 51:29 There's no magic to it, you know?

Amy Morin 51:32 Right, and when people talk about mental health, it's often about what they feel-

Simon Sinek 51:35 Right

Amy Morin 51:35 ... versus mental strength or mental fitness is about what you do.

Simon Sinek 51:39 Right.

Amy Morin 51:39 So if I wake up sad, I could be like, "Well, I have poor mental health today," versus, "I woke up sad. What am I gonna do about that? Maybe it's stay in bed a little longer, but maybe I'm gonna get up and go do something differently," and that's about a choice that you have.

Simon Sinek 51:51 And recognizing, like our regular physical fitness or our diets, it's not good or bad or right or wrong, it's ahead or behind.

Amy Morin 51:59 Right.

Simon Sinek 51:59 Like, I'm on it. I'm doing the things. I'm checking off the things. I'm eating the right things. I'm doing... You know what? I have not been doing it. I'm off the wagon right now, which is okay.

Amy Morin 52:09 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 52:10 It's so funny talking at lengths. The minute we call it fitness or strength, it em- it instantly becomes something I can work on, where the minute we call it health, it's actually kind of like, "You know what? I think I'm just gonna stay in bed." [laughs]

Amy Morin 52:24 Right.

Simon Sinek 52:25 That seems like the right strategy. [laughs]

Amy Morin 52:27 Right. And to, when we feel like we're taking action, it automatically starts to make us feel better.

Simon Sinek 52:33 Yeah.

Amy Morin 52:33 So if I say, "All right. I'm kind of going through a rough patch in my life. Maybe I've been feeling kind of discouraged, down lately. But you know what? Reading a book for 15 minutes a day kind of helps pull me out of it."

Simon Sinek 52:44 Yeah.

Amy Morin 52:44 So I put that on my agenda.

Simon Sinek 52:45 Put that on the to-do list.

Amy Morin 52:47 And then I think, "Okay, well, I'm gonna do this, and maybe it'll work and maybe it won't, but at least I'm doing something as opposed to thinking I'm gonna wait for this to pass."

Simon Sinek 52:53 Yeah. What is one of your bad habits that therapist you, if you were your own patient, uh, would be like, "You should do this"? Like, where are your bad habits that you, you sort of don't follow your own advice?

Amy Morin 53:07 Oh, yeah. Well, we could certainly do a whole episode on [laughs] on things that, uh-

Simon Sinek 53:11 And we're out of time.

Amy Morin 53:12 Right.

Simon Sinek 53:12 Yeah. [laughs]

Amy Morin 53:12 Exactly, the things I struggle with. And, you know, I'm scrolling at night. That's one of those things. I know that people feel better when they don't sleep with their phone in their room.

Simon Sinek 53:23 Yeah.

Amy Morin 53:23 When you put your phone in another room, your anxiety goes down. I know that.

Simon Sinek 53:27 So good though, right?

Amy Morin 53:27 It is. So then when I go to bed at night, I think, "Oh, let me just check something real quick," and then I can easily go down the rabbit hole. Simple, tiny thing I could easily fix in my life, but I often don't.

Simon Sinek 53:39 Yeah, it's like I know that being on my phone at night is bad. Do I do it? Yes. Do I know that it'll keep me up later than I want to go to bed? Yes. Will I get less sleep because of it? Yes. Will I wake up in the morning fully aware? Yes. Will I regret it? Yes.

Amy Morin 53:53 Yep.

Simon Sinek 53:54 And will I do it again? Yes.

Amy Morin 53:55 Yes. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 53:57 [laughs]

Amy Morin 53:57 And that's why, you know, when we look at other people's habits, we think, "Oh, it's so easy to change," and then when you really dive deep into your own life of the things that we do and the things that we know is bad, like insight doesn't change behavior, right? Like we think, "Oh, if something's bad for me, I won't do it anymore." Obviously, that's not the case.

Simon Sinek 54:14 I think this is very funny, which is sometimes something bad has to happen for us to actually... Like, we have to lose the relationship.

Amy Morin 54:20 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 54:20 We, we have to go through the d- the depression because we are becoming antisocial because of the addiction.

Amy Morin 54:25 Yep.

Simon Sinek 54:26 And this is what addiction does. You know better than I do. You know, addiction, it causes social problems. It causes problems in your career and your social life. That's why we know it's a problem-

Amy Morin 54:34 Right

Simon Sinek 54:34 ... as opposed to just something you enjoy doing.

Amy Morin 54:37 Yeah, the pain of staying the same has to start to outweigh-

Simon Sinek 54:39 Yeah

Amy Morin 54:39 ... the fear of change.

Simon Sinek 54:41 We've talked about a lot of things. We've given a lot of really practical advice. Any other, like, top tips that you would offer for how to help somebody stay mentally fit, mentally strong in this crazy, insane world that literally every pressure on us is trying to keep us mentally unfit?

Amy Morin 54:58 Yeah. Yeah. That's a good question, and I think one of the things we touched on earlier was like, can you schedule feelings?

Simon Sinek 55:04 Yeah.

Amy Morin 55:04 Well, there is actually research that you could schedule time to worry, and that's one of my favorite exercises, and I'll do it with my therapy clients and The ones who do it will sometimes look like the weight of the world has literally been lifted off of their shoulders in a matter of a couple of weeks.

Simon Sinek 55:18 Wow.

Amy Morin 55:18 There's so much to worry about that a lot of people don't even really realize how much they're worrying. I'm worrying about the weather. I'm worrying about what is gonna happen after work, what's gonna happen in the next meeting. People's heads are just so filled with worry all the time, not to mention that we consume so much media that we're off in this heightened state of alert, and then our anxiety's high. So then we're looking for danger all the time. But research will show when you set aside just 15 minutes a day-

Simon Sinek 55:45 Mm

Amy Morin 55:45 ... to worry, that you sit down, and you gotta put it in your calendar. You gotta actually schedule it.

Simon Sinek 55:49 Set an alarm.

Amy Morin 55:50 Yep. And you sit down and maybe just sit at your kitchen table at 7:00 at night. Write down whatever you're worried about. Maybe you just sit and think. You don't even have to write it down necessarily. When your 15 minutes is up, you say, "Okay."

Simon Sinek 56:02 As you're saying that, it reminds me of a story of a guy I know who was in a... He was riding his bicycle, was hit by a car, and, like, bad news, right? Very badly mangled and in hospital, and was in excruciating pain, and, "I hate my life. I hate this. Why does this have to happen to me?" All of this stuff. And it got to the point where it became so overwhelming, like he was doing it too much, that he f- I don't know how he came up with it, but he had the wherewithal to be like, "This is not healthy, like, for me doing this. I'm gonna schedule the time to feel sorry for myself and-

Amy Morin 56:35 Yeah

Simon Sinek 56:35 ... be in pain." And whatever time it was, 20 minutes, he set a timer, and, like, he was allowed to be a victim and hate life and, "Why does it have to happen to me?" And, "I'm in pain." And then after the alarm went off, he's like, "Okay, now I have to go do the therapy," you know?

Amy Morin 56:46 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 56:46 He's like, "Now I have to go do physical therapy. Like, uh, that's it." And I, I found that fascinating, and he credits that with having, helping him have the right mental attitude towards recovery 'cause... And I think this is really important, and I think we've confused being mentally strong and mentally fit with denying or suppressing bad feelings.

Amy Morin 57:07 Yes.

Simon Sinek 57:08 We've confused those two. And what I love about your strategy is we're not denying or suppressing anything. We're allocating time for all of that nonsense, very healthy nonsense I might add.

Amy Morin 57:21 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 57:22 You know, be the victim. Go ahead. It feels good. So have... It's like eating ice cream. Go ahead, and for 20 minutes you get to be the victim, you know? He's an asshole, you know? [laughs]

Amy Morin 57:33 Yep.

Simon Sinek 57:33 And then after 20 minutes, you have to go back to accountability, focusing forwards, and moving through it.

Amy Morin 57:39 And this whole idea of mental toughness I think has convinced people you just shove it all down.

Simon Sinek 57:44 Yeah.

Amy Morin 57:44 You suppress everything. I'll have a lot of people that come into my therapy office thinking they're gonna shove it down forever, and I'll convince them-

Simon Sinek 57:51 For now

Amy Morin 57:52 ... it's gonna, it's gonna come up.

Simon Sinek 57:53 Yeah.

Amy Morin 57:53 And-

Simon Sinek 57:53 They shove it down for now

Amy Morin 57:54 ... uh, right, and when you least expect it, and those are the people that break.

Simon Sinek 57:56 And you start yelling at people for stupid things-

Amy Morin 57:58 Correct

Simon Sinek 57:58 ... and nobody's aware, including you-

Amy Morin 58:00 Yep

Simon Sinek 58:01 ... that the reason you're yelling at somebody and you're so short-tempered is for something that happened four months ago.

Amy Morin 58:04 And they'll say, "Well, no, I was fine for the last four months, so I dealt with it, and I've healed from it," or, "And it didn't affect me," 'cause there's that pressure to, to bounce back. We use resilience, like, "I'm gonna s- bounce back the next day." And people are like, "Wow, you came back even stronger." But people didn't really work through the pain.

Simon Sinek 58:21 One of the things I've learned from people like you, which is when the feelings show up, y- you know, there is, there's a time and place, right?

Amy Morin 58:29 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 58:29 Like, there are certain places if it shows up when I don't want it to, I'll suppress it for a little bit.

Amy Morin 58:33 Yep.

Simon Sinek 58:33 You know? But, but it's shown up in healthy places to just let it be, you know?

Amy Morin 58:39 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 58:39 You know, overwhelmed by something and I just feel like sitting and crying, and I'll usually call somebody. My rule with my friends is no crying alone.

Amy Morin 58:49 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 58:49 I'll just call somebody and be like, "I, I, I'm not, this is not working. Just spend with... a little bit of time on the phone with me." That has been the greatest gift that I've learned in recent time, which is if I am having really bad feelings, to, uh, l- invite someone that I love to sit in the mud with me.

Simon Sinek 59:09 And the reason I say invite them, it's because having been on the receiving end, either offering to sit in mud with somebody or been invited to sit in mud with somebody, as a friend who loves somebody, it's an honor-

Amy Morin 59:20 Yeah

Simon Sinek 59:20 ... to get down and climb into the mud with someone, not to fix them, but just to make them feel not alone when they're going through whatever they're going through. It is such an honor to be invited to sit in mud with someone and to be there with them. The whole idea is, "I didn't wanna bother you." You know, I have a friend who did that to me. Like, they were going through something and they said, "I didn't wanna bother you. You're so busy," all this nonsense. I wasn't like, "No, no." I got angry.

Amy Morin 59:44 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 59:44 I'm like, "How dare you? How dare you deny me the honor to be your friend? How dare you deny me the honor to, like, sit in the mud with you when you're going through it? Like, how dare you, you selfish bastard?" You know?

Amy Morin 59:55 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 59:56 So yeah, I've learned that I too have the feelings of I don't wanna bother people, and it's I'm just feeling sorry for myself, and you know? But I've learned my friends wanna be there for me.

Amy Morin 1:00:06 You're absolutely right, and we know from the research social support, one of the biggest indicators of how we emerge from tough times, difficult to do, especially when you're not used to it, to call somebody and say, "Having a bad day, going through-

Simon Sinek 1:00:18 And like all these-

Amy Morin 1:00:19 ... a tough time."

Simon Sinek 1:00:19 ... like all these things, I think it's a muscle.

Amy Morin 1:00:21 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 1:00:21 Really hard to do. Start with something small.

Amy Morin 1:00:24 Yep.

Simon Sinek 1:00:25 Whining about something. "Can I just whine to you for five minutes?" "Sure." And if you work that muscle, you can get to the point where, "Can I just call you up and cry?"

Amy Morin 1:00:32 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 1:00:33 You know?

Amy Morin 1:00:33 Yep.

Simon Sinek 1:00:34 Yeah. Amy, you're the best.

Amy Morin 1:00:35 Oh, thank you.

Simon Sinek 1:00:36 Thanks for coming on. It's been absolutely insightful, and I really, really do believe that the work you're doing and the message you're spreading and the books you're writing are genuinely, genuinely helping people navigate this stuff properly, healthily, and I have to believe that the people who consume your work actually don't need your work as much because of your work.

Amy Morin 1:01:00 Thank you so much.

Simon Sinek 1:01:01 [laughs] Working yourself out of a job. Isn't that the best?

Amy Morin 1:01:04 I hope so. I hope so.

Simon Sinek 1:01:05 Yeah. Thanks for coming. So good.

Amy Morin 1:01:06 Thanks for having me. [gentle music]

Simon Sinek 1:01:08 As always, thank you for watching. If you liked this episode, please subscribe to A Bit of Optimism for more interesting guests and even more interesting conversations. New episodes drop every Tuesday. But if you'd like more optimism right now, click here to watch another episode. Until next time, take care of yourself, take care of each other.