Simon SinekWhy Being Right Is Costing You Trust | A Bit of Optimism: Feelings at Work | PART 4
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
60 min read · 11,663 words- 0:00 – 6:36
Why Does Nobody Know How to Apologize?
- SSSimon Sinek
I think an apology is the highest form of accountability.
- ASAlex Simon
I teach a lot of workshops, and I decided to teach one on apologizing. We had a photographer that day, who was just supposed to be taking pictures of the workshop. I say something like, "Oh, does anyone have anything they want to say?" And he raises his hand and he's like, "I had no idea, [laughs] I had no idea that I needed to learn how to apologize. But apologies are the tip of an iceberg that I just, I didn't know how big this iceberg was, and I really think this is gonna change my whole marriage." It's one of these things that n- almost no one thinks that they need to work on.
- SSSimon Sinek
I think we all think we know how to do it-
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... because we've done it. Okay, hot take. If you want a really quick and easy way to make my blood boil, the next time I sincerely share how I feel because of something you said or did, say, "I'm sorry you feel that way." This is on the top of my list of non-apologies or deflections that so many people offer when confronted with negative impact from their words or actions. No one wants to look dumb or bad or wrong. No one wants to be told that we did something that caused pain to someone or did damage at work, and so we point fingers, offer excuses, and use words that take the spotlight off us. So let's start with our first accountability lesson. Let's all admit we have done one or all of these things, and that's okay. There are some very simple ways we can get comfortable with accountability and know how to express it in ways that strengthens trust. Instead of taking a summer hiatus, we're presenting a special five-episode series of A Bit of Optimism to go deep on human skills, those things that help us connect, collaborate, and succeed in any human relationship. That's why I invited Alex Simon, founder of LifeShop, where she teaches emotional intelligence, to join me. And over these five episodes, we will tackle some of the messier human interactions, like having hard conversations, people pleasing, listening, and giving feedback, and this one, taking accountability. Now, when you hear accountability, you may be thinking KPIs or scorecards. That's not what I'm talking about. This is about knowing how to confidently own it when we mess up. There are three big ideas we're going to explore in this episode. First, there's a reason our apologies don't land, and it's not because our intent was off or the other person is unreasonable. It's because a lot of us are running software we installed when we were five years old and we never updated. We discuss why accountability is so hard and how to reprogram our approach. Next, if you've ever sat in a meeting and watched someone present your idea as theirs, and then watched as that same person dodged responsibility when things went sideways, you're about to understand why. We uncover why taking credit and blame actually come from the same place deep inside our psyche, and how we can resolve it. And finally, we're gonna talk about what a real apology actually does, not just for the person receiving it, but for the person giving it. And something happens in the middle of that discussion that I did not expect, and it changed the way I feel about saying sorry. And I'll add just one more thing. This episode actually comes with a warning, that by the end, you may have the urge to call someone about that thing that you've been trying to avoid owning up to. And if you enjoy this episode, also please remember to subscribe. This is A Bit of Optimism. Let's talk about a very difficult topic.
- ASAlex Simon
Hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
A sensitive topic, dare I say.
- ASAlex Simon
Okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
Especially when it comes to something like saying sorry. It's amazing how people don't know how to do it.
- ASAlex Simon
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
And how not knowing how to apologize or doing it in a way that you think is self-preserving actually can inflame a situation at worst, and at best, uh, damage trust.
- ASAlex Simon
I really agree. And for me, the apology is kind of how I got started on all of this in my life.
- SSSimon Sinek
I did not know this.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Saying sorry is your or-
- ASAlex Simon
It's my origin story
- SSSimon Sinek
... is your origin story?
- ASAlex Simon
It's my origin story.
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay.
- ASAlex Simon
Because when I was growing up, I had a parent, who I will not name which parent-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- ASAlex Simon
... just in case they both listen to this. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm gonna guess it's either your mom or your dad, but we won't say which one.
- ASAlex Simon
One of my parents-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- ASAlex Simon
... really struggled to, to take accountability. Um, and they pretty much didn't apologize for anything my whole life, which is tricky because parents make mistakes 'cause they are human. And so I've been really sensitive to apologies my whole life. I used to have an apology formula, and my sister and I, when we would get in fights, I'd be like, "You have to apologize in this way," and she would say, "This is too rigid" And it probably was too rigid, but I've always taken apologies really, really seriously.
- SSSimon Sinek
Hmm.
- ASAlex Simon
And maybe four years ago, I got in a fight with my boyfriend at the time, and he said a classic apology, which is, "I'm sorry that you feel that way."
- SSSimon Sinek
Ugh.
- ASAlex Simon
I had explained to him the rigid formula of apologizing [laughs] many times. And he said it, and I just kind of lost it. And at the beginning I was angry because I felt like, "Oh, you know, you haven't listened to this thing that I have said is important to me." And then I also felt a lot of compassion. I mean, I taught you how to apologize, but no one generally teaches people how to apologize.
- 6:36 – 8:52
The Wheelie Bag Philosophy: What Saying Sorry Actually Means
- SSSimon Sinek
She goes, "Yes, I would like this to stop immediately." I said, "It's very simple. Just copy what I'm gonna tell you. Just say I'm sorry." She says, "I'm sorry." I said, "Thank you. I'm good." And this is what I find amazing, which is when somebody gives a heartfelt sorry, because it's really hard to say I'm sorry.
- ASAlex Simon
It's so hard.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's very hard to say.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? And I was fine. I literally, all of the stress, all the tension went away. Even telling her what to say to me, that she would say it, the catharsis worked, and I was good, and the whole thing diffused. And it was a lesson for her. She goes, "I never realized that, that I thought the apology was me sort of admitting that I'm at fault." And I'm like, "No, it's just taking accountability for the peace." And this is one of the great lessons I've learned about saying sorry, which is saying you're sorry doesn't mean you're wrong. All it means is you take accountability for the thing that you said or did. That's all it means. And my analogy that I love to use, if you're at the airport and you're walking through the airport with your wheelie bag, your wheelie bag accidentally rolls over someone's foot. You turn to look at them. They look at you, and you say, "What?" And they go, "Say sorry." Like, "No." "You, you ran over my foot." "I didn't mean to."
- ASAlex Simon
That's a really-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right?
- ASAlex Simon
... that's a really good analogy. Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
But we always say sorry. Do you know why we say sorry? Because it's our wheelie bag. Yes, we did not intend to run over someone's foot, but it is our wheelie bag. And so when you run over someone's foot, you immediately turn around and say, "I'm so sorry," and they're like, "Don't worry about it."
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? That's how accountability works, which is even if you didn't intend it, it's still your words. It's still your actions. It's still your wheelie bag. Just take accountability for those things, and we're good.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Nobody's looking for right or wrong. We're looking for accountability for words or actions. That's all it means. So apologies are one part of accountability.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Let's talk about credit.
- ASAlex Simon
Okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
There are people who take credit for everything. They think it helps make them look good and make them impressive. And I've seen this happen. I was literally in a meeting where there was a discussion, and let's say Person B had an amazing idea in the meeting. Okay? We all agreed that was an amazing idea. We then went to the second meeting, and in the second meeting Person A was like, "So I had this idea."
- 8:52 – 10:49
Why People Who Take Too Much Credit Can't Handle Blame
- ASAlex Simon
No. No.
- SSSimon Sinek
And, and I'm looking at Person B, and we're like, "WTF?"
- ASAlex Simon
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? We're like, first of all, not that person's idea. Like, I heard you say it. And second of all, at best, or at worst rather, just say we had an idea, 'cause we were all in the room. But, like, I listened to this person go, "I had an idea," and then tells everybody the idea, and everybody's like, "That's a great idea." It was an amazing thing to witness, this person take excessive and too much amount of credit and not very good at sharing it, the, the accumulation of it. It was a flag, and I started paying attention. I didn't say anything. I just started paying attention. And then I also noticed something that I think goes along with people who take too much credit, is when things go wrong, it's never their fault.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I think blame and, and not knowing how to take credit properly are bedfellows. And the reason is 'cause I think the root of both of them is the same.
- ASAlex Simon
It's like, uh, diffusing responsibility onto someone else when things go south, and when things go right, you're taking it all onto-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right. And I think they're born out of the same thing, which is insecurity. Blame is the opposite of accountability, and it is pointing to anything other than yourself for why something went badly.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You can blame another person. You can blame circumstances. You can blame the weather. You can blame whatever you want. Those things often show up in bad apologies. I'm sorry I was late, but there was traffic.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
True.
- ASAlex Simon
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs] Right? And I know why people do it. It's because it has the appearance of accountability, but it sort of waters it down a little bit.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm sorry I was late, but there was traffic is different than, I'm sorry I was late. Ugh, the traffic. You can still get it in there, but you and I both know this. The minute you say the word but-
- ASAlex Simon
It negates the whole-
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, literally it negates the thing that-
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's actually what the word but does.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It negates everything that came before it. I'm sorry, but you started it.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs] I'm sorry, but I wouldn't have said that if you didn't say that
- 10:49 – 13:37
The Culture of Blame: Pointing Fingers, Not Looking Inward
- SSSimon Sinek
first.
- ASAlex Simon
And I feel like this is so the water that we're swimming in, that we don't even notice that this is our first reaction. Like, something happens, and at least for me, my first reaction is to find someone to blame in my head, and I have to actively stop myself from doing that.
- SSSimon Sinek
And by the way, I think that's normal.
- ASAlex Simon
I think it's super normal.
- SSSimon Sinek
I think, I think we all do.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because it doesn't feel good to be wrong or hurt someone or make a bad decision or whatever it is. It doesn't feel good. It's much easier to blame the weather-
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... to blame another person.
- ASAlex Simon
And I just think it's the culture that we're in, and so we live in, like, a very blame-forward culture, which is just tragic, but it's also part of our, and it's part of our experience. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
And it's equally unhealthy to always blame yourself.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because sometimes it is other things. I'll tell you my favorite accountability story. You see this a lot in, like, people in finance. [laughs]
- ASAlex Simon
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
I wonder why.
- ASAlex Simon
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
That when everything goes right, like, when they, like, make tons of money and they're like, "20% portfolio growth, wah, wah, wah," right? It's because they're geniuses.
- ASAlex Simon
Of course.
- SSSimon Sinek
I achieved 20% growth, right? But if the portfolio loses 20%, it's always the market conditions.
- ASAlex Simon
The market conditions, of course.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's always the market conditions. Like, the portfolio lost 20% this year, but you, it's easy to understand if you understand the conditions of the market this, this season. The funny thing is I'm, I don't mind either logic, but you can't mix your logics, right? You can either be the genius, I'm fine with that, but then when things go down, then you're the idiot.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
That would be correct. That would be linear logic. Or you can either be the luckiest bastard in the world, 'cause it's going up, and just really unlucky, 'cause it went down.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? You can't mix your logics. [laughs] But it, what it is is I like to take credit and I don't like to take responsibility.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
So Alex, we've talked a little bit about blame, saying sorry, credit. What is the root? What is getting in the way of why people do blame, why people can't say sorry, don't know how to apologize, and don't know how to effectively take credit or give credit?
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah. It's so unbelievably hard. First of all, I think we don't really know, we're never really taught how, and we're not really modeled how because of this culture that we're in.
- 13:37 – 17:34
Being Wrong With Confidence: The Leadership Skill Nobody Teaches
- SSSimon Sinek
And this goes back to that funny skill, which is I don't think people know how to be wrong.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Most people think of wrong as empirical. Like, it's a math formula, right? That here's the answer, you either are right or you are wrong. It is empirical, right? But in many things, that's sometimes true, sometimes it is empirical, you know, and there is right and wrong, but, but very often it's subjective. And so when I say people don't know how to be wrong, I'll give you an example. I made a call, it was the wrong call, and it had a negative impact on the company, the team, the revenue, whatever, right? And everybody knows it 'cause I made the decision and I could say, "Well, that was the best..." You know, like, I could sort of, like, go around it and be like-
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... "Well, how was I supposed to know?" Or, "I'm just trying to do the best I can," right? Which are all deflections of accountability. And so let's say I'm like, "All right, I'm gonna take accountability, and I'm gonna admit that I was wrong," right? There's a couple ways to do it, and people get it wrong. When we say, this is what-
- ASAlex Simon
[laughs] Only empirically
- SSSimon Sinek
... w- this is what people think, right? "Hey, that decision, um, I was wrong and, uh, I should have asked for more advice. Um, I was too quick and, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm sorry. I was wrong." And that's what most people think when they talk about admitting you're wrong. They think that tone of voice, which is defeatist, it's weak.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's, um, humiliating.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
When you have a growth mindset and you recognize that you have inherent value and that sometimes you make mistakes, saying you're wrong can come out completely differently. For example, "So that decision, I was completely wrong."
- ASAlex Simon
[laughs] Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
"I should have asked for more advice. I made the decision too quickly, and yep, I-"
- ASAlex Simon
"And here's what I learned from it."
- SSSimon Sinek
"And, and I completely made the wrong decision."
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And owning the, the accountability versus fearing the accountability, that is what makes people follow you.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's not that you get things right, and this is what people get wrong, which is they think that, "If I get everything right, I'm a credible leader. If I get everything right, people will follow me and trust me." Incorrect, 'cause everybody knows that you're not perfect, and nobody is, and everybody knows when you made a mistake. Like, everybody knows. And owning it, the confidence to own it, is what makes somebody wanna follow you.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
That makes you build trust. And it's not humiliating.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It is a growth mindset and sets an incredible tone for any team, whether you're the leader or not.
- ASAlex Simon
We think that we need to be strong in this kind of like puffed up chest, like, "I'm d- not making mistakes" way, when actually it's like that's actually a really brittle sign of strength, and true strength is what I'm hearing from what you're saying is being able to admit, "Oh, this thing, didn't get it right. This is what I learned." Like, we're still okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
You're making a nuanced observation that I think is worth just unders- underlining for just a second, which is people puff up and act strong to, uh, promote themselves or their position, whatever it is, and project confidence, and they think projecting confidence-
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... is being bombastic, and giving excuses, and proving that I'm infallible, right? But what they're recognizing is that is false confidence.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It is theatrical confidence, the kind of confidence you play, you know, when you're playing that character.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- 17:34 – 24:04
The Catharsis of Apologizing: Relief for Both Sides
- ASAlex Simon
Like, for me, I've noticed when I mess something up, it's still my first instinct to be defensive-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- ASAlex Simon
... to kind of steel myself off, to try to figure out why w- this thing wasn't my fault. Like, those are still my instincts. And then the, the second I'm able to eke out a, "I'm sorry," even if at the beginning I'm, like, kinda saying it through gritted teeth, I feel like it opens the door for me to actually express my feeling, which often is, like, genuine remorse that I'm kind of protecting myself from for a lot of the time. But, like, once I say the words, then something relieves, gets relieved-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- ASAlex Simon
... in my system. There's also catharsis for me. And then it opens the door of like, "Oh, what are, what are the things that I can take accountability for?"
- SSSimon Sinek
It does relieve tension, right? If you go back to the wheelie bag example, right? A failure to say a, a, a sorry, that will escalate.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? Saying sorry deescalates.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah, it connects also, I feel like. And for me, I think often I don't want to apologize first, not because I don't feel bad and because I can't see the part that I can own, but because I have a fear almost that if I apologize first, if I take responsibility for my piece first, that means somehow that I will have lost the fight-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- ASAlex Simon
... and I will be wrong, and then I will lose... I will basically be forfeiting the opportunity for them to recognize how they also hurt me or how their actions also impacted me.
- SSSimon Sinek
What's so interesting about knowing how to apologize is it models behavior, right?
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
That when one person does it and does it effectively, it very often, I'd say more often than not, creates an environment for the other person to just take a deep breath, let the stress go down, and also take a- accountability.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And very often we think that if you say you're sorry first, it means the admission of guilt or that you're wrong or that you caused it. It doesn't. It just means you're the first person to take accountability for your share in whatever happened. Maybe they did start something, but your reaction wasn't great. You can say sorry for that, which creates the conditions for everybody to take accountability. If we go back to what a leader is, we call you leader not 'cause you are at the top of the organization. We call you leader 'cause you went first. You literally-
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... led the way. And so I would argue that anybody who chooses to lead a leadership lifestyle will model behavior, whether they have position of rank or authority or not.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And by leading the way and saying the, taking accountability for your, whatever your part is, even if it was the second part, you're creating a safe space for somebody who struggles with apologies to then say sorry. And it almost always works. I have a horrible one where it didn't, where somebody really did wrong me, and they really were out of line. My reaction, my initial reaction wasn't great, but after that, it was just very difficult situation that created massive amounts of tension. And I could never get an apology or an accountability for this person. The relationship was destroyed.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so I decided, in an effort to repair the relationship, that I would go first. And so I met up with this person and I said, "You know, we both know what happened and I just wanna say that I'm sorry for the way I reacted. It's not the way I like to show up, and I'm sorry that I, I spoke to you that way." And he looked at me and went, "Good."
- ASAlex Simon
No.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- ASAlex Simon
He didn't say anything back?
- SSSimon Sinek
Nothing. He just stared at me. And I know going in that taking accountability, you should never expect it, right? Like, you should never do it for that reason.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You take accountability because it's-
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... you know, the other person be like, "I'm sorry I put my foot in front of your bag," you know? [laughs]
- 24:04 – 27:55
Leaders Give Away All the Credit, Take All the Blame
- ASAlex Simon
for yourself.
- SSSimon Sinek
And the pin on credit and blame I wanna put in is I think, as I said, they are, they are bedfellows.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And we've talked about negative examples, people who blame too much, people who take credit too much, that it's hard to trust them, especially when you're, start to figure it out. One of the best leaders I know He's a leader that I admire, I try to model myself to af- after. He is astonishing.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I talk about this all the time, which is one of the, one of the really shitty things about being a leader and the choice to live the leadership lifestyle, one of the really uncomfortable things is you have to give away all the credit and take all the blame. Like, when things go wrong, it's on you, 'cause you're the leader, and when things go right, it's because of everybody else, right?
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's just how it works. And I've seen it modeled by this guy I know who is astonishing. And if you pay him any compliment, "It's amazing what you accomplished," he'll be like, "It was, it was my team. It was them."
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
"I, I played a bit role." And you're like, "No, man, you, you, you..." He's like, "Yeah, I mean, sure, but you gotta see this team I've got. They are amazing."
- ASAlex Simon
And is it genuine, or do you-
- SSSimon Sinek
It is 100% genuine.
- ASAlex Simon
I love that.
- SSSimon Sinek
He oozes-
- ASAlex Simon
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... with gratitude for the people who sacrifice to serve him. And then I've seen the opposite. When things go sideways, he goes, "The buck stops here."
- ASAlex Simon
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
"The buck stops here. Maybe I should have intervened more. Maybe I should have checked in more often. Maybe I should have given better direction. But at the end of the day, the reason it went wrong, if you wanna look for somebody to blame, you blame me." And the result is he has credibility through the roof. People will die for him, you know? People will change career paths to be with him.
- ASAlex Simon
Wow.
- SSSimon Sinek
And everybody from very senior people to the most junior people worship him. He is so respected, and he's so humble the way he goes through life. And the reason he reeks of humility... Just as a quick aside, my favorite definition of humility is by Bob Gayler, who's the, uh, former Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force. He said, "Don't confuse humility with meekness."
- ASAlex Simon
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
He said, "Humility is being open to the ideas of others," which I love.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And it's not, "Aw, shucks." That's not, that's meekness.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Humility is like, "That's a great idea. Your idea is better than mine."
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And the ability to give credit is humble.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And this leader, he's insanely senior and insanely powerful, and he goes through life with deep, unfettered gratitude to those who give and work hard. He goes through life accepting that it's on his shoulders, and he also maintains high standards. So when somebody screws up, he will tell you. When something goes horribly wrong and someone's irresponsible, he will tell you. So I don't want people to confuse that giving credit and taking blame means that you let go of standards. He does not.
- 27:55 – 35:17
The Apology Formula: Recognition + Impact
- SSSimon Sinek
rigid-
- ASAlex Simon
[laughs] No, I've-
- SSSimon Sinek
... apology formula.
- ASAlex Simon
The first thing that I think about is recognition of what happened in a specific way. This, to me, is maybe the most important thing, is often when we apologize, for me, just saying the words "I'm sorry" doesn't do anything. The things we know don't work. "I'm sorry," just for me, "I'm sorry," period, doesn't really do that much. It feels like a script. "I'm sorry, but we talked about this," like that negates it. Um, "I'm sorry that you feel that way." These are, like, the, the three, like, definitely don'ts. I think the alternative is to recognize both what happened and also the impact on the other person. And so this avoids the, like, vague, like, "I'm, oh, I'm sorry," you know? Or like, "I'm sorry that you're hurt," or er, like there's this kind of like, these big statements that don't, for me, don't actually land with anything. It's like, "Well, what, what are you sorry for?"
- SSSimon Sinek
They're more attempts to try and end the-
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... fight or end the tension-
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... rather than take actual accountability.
- ASAlex Simon
When it comes to recognizing with specificity, I'm like, I like to recognize, okay, literally, what did I do, and what is the impact that it had? For example, it could be like, "I'm really sorry that I canceled last minute, and I imagine that it made you feel like you weren't a priority, and I really wanna own that that is how it could have impacted you." And so it's not just like, "I'm sorry for what happened." That's another one that I think is a big don't. Or, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry for what I did." It's like, okay, well, what did you do?
- SSSimon Sinek
What did you do?
- ASAlex Simon
What did you do, and have you taken the time to empathetically imagine how did that make me feel? And that, to me, those two prongs of, like, recognition of what happened, of my piece of what happened, and also the impact that it had on me, that's a really beautiful combination.
- SSSimon Sinek
I 100% agree. I 100% agree that the apology should be specific. "I'm sorry it, that things happened."
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right?
- ASAlex Simon
It's like-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- ASAlex Simon
... okay. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay. You know? "I'm sorry I showed up late to your party." "I'm sorry I, I dropped the ball-
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... on the project that you assigned to me." Those are, those are great. Those are specific. "I'm sorry I didn't communicate sooner when things went wrong, and then things got out of hand." And when you talk about impact, it doesn't necessarily have to be feelings. Like, "And I know I let my team down."
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? Then I completely agree with the apology. I think that is very effective and very powerful. In fact, even saying it hypothetically now, I'm like, "That's a good apology." [laughs]
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah, I also felt that. I was like, "Wow. Thank you."
- SSSimon Sinek
That was, phew.
- ASAlex Simon
And totally-
- SSSimon Sinek
Thank you. I feel, thank you. I feel better. Thank you.
- ASAlex Simon
And you know what? You're, it's okay. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs] We will get through it, and we won't let it happen again.
- ASAlex Simon
Yes.
- 35:17 – 41:06
The Three-Part Apology That Finally Landed
- SSSimon Sinek
to what has happened.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah. I'll share a personal story of, of a recent time that I had a really hard time apologizing. I was in a fight with someone who I was dating, and I did something that was clearly a mistake but also really impacted him. And he was very hurt. And I was really focused on how it was a mistake. [laughs] Like, how obviously I didn't mean to hurt him, 'cause I know that my intentions are good. And I'm often in the trap that I've discussed before which is, oh, I know my intentions are good, therefore if it's clashing with how it's impacting you in a bad way, I'm like, "Well, how is that possible? My intentions are good. I never wanna hurt anyone." But he was clearly very hurt, and I was being defensive. I was, like, justifying my position rather than just acknowledging his pain and expressing that the thing that was true to me, which is that I was very sorry that I made this mistake. So I was being defensive, being defensive, and he was just like, "Why can't you just say you're sorry?" And so he, similar situation, like, gave me the scripted I'm sorry. And so I took it and I said, "Okay, I'm sorry." And at the beginning, the first I said it and I, like, didn't really mean it, I would say. Like, I was saying the words, but I was still-
- SSSimon Sinek
Alex Simon.
- ASAlex Simon
I know, but I, I-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- ASAlex Simon
But this is why it's so hard. Why is it so hard? And I was saying the words, but more in a, like, I want this to be over way.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right, yeah.
- ASAlex Simon
And, like, you're making me say this thing that is-
- SSSimon Sinek
Which is much akin to I'm sorry you feel that way.
- ASAlex Simon
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, it's, say, same-
- ASAlex Simon
It's the same family
- SSSimon Sinek
... same, same, same family. [laughs]
- ASAlex Simon
And I said it, and I like clearly forced it out, clearly didn't mean it. But then he took it like it was real, and he was like, "Thank you. Thank you so much. It really hurt." And then when he said that, I looked at him, a person who I love, and I was like, "Wow, I really hurt him. I do feel sorry."
- SSSimon Sinek
So the actual remorse came after you got the response.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Very interesting.
- ASAlex Simon
And then a few minutes passed. We were kind of like in awkward silence. We were kind of just sitting there. And the waves of realization just started hitting me of like, "Okay, why am I defending myself that I didn't wake up early to go to this thing that I know really mattered to him? Why am I so invested in making sure that he knows that I didn't do it on purpose?" Like, the reality is that I didn't go to this thing. He matters to me. It matters to him. And so then after a few minutes, I said, "Wait, actually, I am really sorry."
- SSSimon Sinek
Beautiful.
- ASAlex Simon
And I elaborated my apology, and I owned the, both what happened and the impact. And then he softened even more. And then-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, this is so good
- ASAlex Simon
... and then a few minutes passed, and like we kinda got over it. He forgave me.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- ASAlex Simon
It was over. And then like half an hour later, it hit me even more. Like, "Wow, I really wish I didn't do this thing," and on an even deeper level, and I could apologize again. Even though the conversation was over-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah
- ASAlex Simon
... like everything was done, the third apology definitely wasn't necessary, but I was able to find genuine regret.
- SSSimon Sinek
H- here's the very, very, very, very important insight that you are revealing.
- ASAlex Simon
What is it? [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
No, no, it's so important.
- ASAlex Simon
It's so important.
- 41:06 – 43:44
How to Receive an Apology
- ASAlex Simon
we can do.
- SSSimon Sinek
There's one glaring hole that we haven't talked about.
- ASAlex Simon
What is it?
- SSSimon Sinek
We have been spending all of our time talking about the person who's doing the apologizing.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
But what about the person who's being apologized to?
- ASAlex Simon
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
They play a role as well.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so we've talked about how to give an apology, but do people know how to receive one?
- ASAlex Simon
Also so hard.
- SSSimon Sinek
Also so hard. I think sometimes when somebody gives a genuine, heartfelt, honest, good apology, and the other person fails to receive it or receives it, brushes it aside and starts attacking-
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... and says like, "Thank you, because you do that all the time to me-
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... and I'm just, I, I kind of have this..." And like, "Never let that happen again. How dare you?" It's like there's a point at which when an apology is good and heartfelt, you have to receive it.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And rejecting the apology over and over and over again, I think is as irresponsible as failing to apologize.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm. I agree. It's a tender thing when someone comes to you and says, and actually takes responsibility for something. I sometimes have the instinct to do exactly what you're saying, like to twist the knife, to be like, "And these other things that you did wrong, and this is da, da, da, da, da, da." I think it's very normal, and it's almost like when someone takes responsibility for their part, we wanna like show them the whole tsunami of all the things that they're also not taking responsibility for. We wanna be even more right. But I think that we need to let that instinct go in the moment.
- SSSimon Sinek
Let's bring it back to work, right? "I'm, I'm so sorry I missed the deadline, and I'm so sorry I didn't communicate, and I know I let the team down."
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay? And then the person receiving that apology goes Yeah, you do this to us all the time. There's no reason to twist the knife. They are, they are genuinely trying to take accountability.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And the correct response is, "Thank you. I hear you. Let us work together. I will help you if you need it to ensure that this doesn't happen again in the future."
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
"Because I know it hurts you, and I know I can hear the pain, and we will work together to ensure this doesn't happen again."
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
"Okay?"
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And the other person, "Yes. Okay." So to be future-oriented, when you're on the receiving end of the apology, I know what happened in the past is what they're apologizing for, but the minute that you, you recognize that the apology, the apologizer is genuinely trying-
- 43:44 – 47:47
When Sorry Isn't Enough Without Behavioral Change
- ASAlex Simon
through.
- SSSimon Sinek
If you get really good at apologizing, it may disincentivize you to actually fix things-
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... because you're so good at apologizing and just making the tensions go away and making people feel seen and heard. But at the end of the day, if all you do is repeat behavior and just keep apologizing, at some point, though the apologies are good and heartfelt, at some point people will just stop trusting you because an apology is like college commencement. It's not the end of something, it's the beginning of something.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? And we're talking, we're not talking about little apologies, right? If there's something systemic or something behavioral or something, you know, that you've gotta work on fixing whatever. And I'll use my example, I'm sorry I missed the deadline and I didn't, I didn't communicate. And then somebody says, "Okay, so let's work together to fix that," and you make no attempts to schedule things or ask for help or, and it just keeps repeating and repeating. We always say this at work, which is you can't fire somebody for performance issues and you can't fire somebody for behavioral issues. You can fire people if they're uncoachable.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because if you have performance or behavioral issues, I can coach you through either of those things.
- ASAlex Simon
Totally.
- SSSimon Sinek
I can help you. But if you prove yourself to be uncoachable, in other words, there is no growth, then there's no place for you on this team because I can't fix the performance or the behavior, and I can't work... You won't fix the performance or the behavior, and I can't help you.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so I think the same goes here, which is I accept the apology, but now I need growth.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Even if the growth is bumpy and stumbly, the momentum has to be forwards, and if you fail to commit to growth and repair for whatever has happened, especially if it's repetitive behavior, I think somebody really does put their job at risk. And the irony here is taking accountability is not what gets you fired. It's failure to repair or ask for help and grow-
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... that risks you getting fired.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm. It needs to be paired with behavioral change.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yes.
- ASAlex Simon
Otherwise, it's just words.
- SSSimon Sinek
Otherwise, it's just words.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Even if they're really, really, really true and honest in the moment.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like I, I do believe that some people feel tremendous guilt and truly do say sorry in that moment.
- ASAlex Simon
I agree.
- SSSimon Sinek
But then forget and let go-
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... and, and don't make the changes necessary to be made.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
I've seen it happen, and sadly, I think we've all done it, too.
- 47:47 – 49:57
The Small Gestures That Reinforce Your Apology
- ASAlex Simon
The other thing that I really love with repair is, this is just a little thing that I like to do, is when I'm sorry and, you know, I apologize, I recognize it, and the impact, da, da, da, da, da, we figure out what is the path forward. Something that I like to do on top of making sure that I'm doing the behavioral change that is needed in the moment is find a small way to make it up to someone.
- SSSimon Sinek
I find cupcakes work very well.
- ASAlex Simon
Yes, cupcakes.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- ASAlex Simon
Or a little note.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, that's good. You know what that does? It reinforces the heartfeltness of the apology.
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
I think that's very, very nice. I think that's good. A l- even a little note going, "I just wanted to say sorry."
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
"I think you're great."
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I'll tell you the biology of that. Well, it's not really the biology. The anthropology of that, which is money is a redeemable commodity. We spend money, we make money, whatever. We waste money, we make more money, right? But time and effort are non-redeemable commodities.
- ASAlex Simon
Oh, cool.
- SSSimon Sinek
We all have a fixed amount of time.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And you can't get effort back. And so when someone gives you time or effort-
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... it feels richer than someone giving you money.
- ASAlex Simon
I love that.
- SSSimon Sinek
And-
- ASAlex Simon
I've never thought about it in those terms
- SSSimon Sinek
... and, and, and so for example, like you're moving house and- One friend says, "You know what? I wanna help you. I'm gonna pay for the moving van. Here's $5,000." And you're like, "Amazing. Thank you." And another friend says, "You know what? I'm gonna come over, I'm gonna help you pack all the boxes, I'm gonna ride in the van with you, I'm gonna get to your new house, I'm gonna help you unload and unpack all the boxes." Amazing. Both friends call you the same day and go, "I need a favor." You help the one who helped you with the time and effort-
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... not the one who gave you money. Even though you're super grateful for the money, at the end of the day, time and energy, time and effort are just more valuable.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And people always say that, you know, when you have a meeting. It's like, "Hey, thank you for your time."
- ASAlex Simon
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
"Boy, thank you for your time for this meeting. No, thank you for your time. I know you're busy." Like it really means something. And so going out of your way slightly, taking a few minutes to write a note, that is often worth more than large sort of displays or, or, or hefty words even sometimes.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a difference between, um, it's the showing versus telling. Like I can tell you I'm sorry, and that matters a lot clearly to me. And to your point about how we can ask people how they wanna be apologized to, we can also ask them what repair would look like. What would feel good to you going forward?
- SSSimon Sinek
What, what do I need to do to prevent-
- 49:57 – 52:34
Why We All Think We Already Know How to Apologize
- ASAlex Simon
happen. But I teach the class-
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm really sorry I'm late for the workshop on apologizing. [laughs]
- ASAlex Simon
[laughs] When I do people pleasing, that one happens. And procrastination, procrastination, no one signed up for. And I was like, "Huh, this is weird." And then day of, 20 people signed up.
- SSSimon Sinek
Really? Is it? [laughs]
- ASAlex Simon
[laughs] I was like, "Okay, true to form."
- SSSimon Sinek
That's really funny.
- ASAlex Simon
Yes. And when I taught how to apologize, normally my workshops are pretty much always sold out, and very few people signed up for how to apologize, and I was a little bit surprised. And we get there, we had a smaller group, which is nice. We had a photographer that day, and so he was like not really in the workshop. He was just supposed to be taking pictures of the workshop. And then around halfway through, I like, I, I say something like, "Oh, does anyone have anything they wanna say?" And he raises his hand and he's like, "I had no idea, [laughs] I had no idea that I needed to learn how to apologize. But apologies are the tip of an iceberg that I just, I didn't know how big this iceberg was, and I really think this is gonna change my whole marriage." And he just like goes on and on and on and on. And so I think it's one of these things that n- almost no one thinks that they need to work on because we genuinely believe that, like, we are right and other people are wrong-
- SSSimon Sinek
So, so-
- ASAlex Simon
... and they should be apologizing
- SSSimon Sinek
... a- and I think we all think we know how to do it-
- ASAlex Simon
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... because we've done it.
- ASAlex Simon
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Even if we did it inef- ineffectively. This was a, a, an episode about, broadly about accountability, where we talked about blame, we talked about how to take and give credit, and we talked a lot about apologizing-
- ASAlex Simon
And what not to do
- SSSimon Sinek
... and, and what not to do, and how an apology is cathartic, obviously for the receiver, but deeply cathartic for the giver. It relieves tension when it is real and authentic, and it is an opportunity for greater teamwork.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It is an opportunity for greater cooperation.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And how simple, right? Though complex, how simple that learning how to apologize and take accountability in the right way is a gateway for trust, engagement, and vastly better performance inside an organization.
- ASAlex Simon
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I... It's amazing to me how this little idea... I mean, when we first said this, like, "Can we do a whole episode on apologizing?"
- ASAlex Simon
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, "We can figure that in about 10 minutes and we're done." And like we've talked for over an hour about this. I think an apology is the highest form of accountability. I mean, there's a bit of a bait and switch we have to acknowledge, which is we called this episode Accountability because people will click on that. But if you say How to Apologize-
- ASAlex Simon
No one's gonna click on it
- SSSimon Sinek
... nobody's gonna click on it. So for those who are listening, sorry, not sorry. [laughs]
- ASAlex Simon
[laughs] There we go.
- SSSimon Sinek
As always, thank you for watching. If you liked this episode, please subscribe to A Bit of Optimism for more interesting guests and even more interesting conversations. New episodes drop every Tuesday. But if you'd like more optimism right now, click here to watch another episode. Until next time, take care of yourself, take care of each other.
Episode duration: 52:35
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Transcript of episode N0vS-QKvYvw
