Modern Romance Interview | Dr. John & Julie Gottman | Talks at Google

Logan Ury 0:00 Great. So, uh, my name is Logan Ury. I'm here visiting Seattle from the Mountain View office, where I work as a behavioral researcher, and I am so glad that we can welcome Dr. John Gottman and Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman here today. So thank you so much for joining us at Google.

Dr. John Gottman 0:17 [coughs]

Logan Ury 0:18 We're, we're thrilled to have you. I've been a fan of yours for many years. I'm so glad that you're here, and this is our fourth event in our series on Modern Romance. So first of all, I'll introduce the Gottmans, then I'll ask them some questions, and then we'll invite you all up at the end to ask questions at this podium at the mic. So first, we have Dr. John Gottman. He's world-renowned for his work on marital stability and divorce prediction. He's conducted 40 years of breakthrough research with thousands of couples. He's re- he was recognized as one of the top 10 most influential therapists of the past quarter-century by the Psychotherapy Networker. He's also the author of 190 published academic articles and the author or co-author of 40 books, including the bestselling "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work," "What Makes Love Last," and "The Relationship Cure." He's also the co-founder of The Gottman Institute with his wife, and he's Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of Washington, where he founded the Love Lab to research couples. Now, Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman is the co-founder and president of The Gottman Institute. She's also highly recognized as a clinical psychologist whose work with distressed couples, abuse and trauma survivors, substance abusers and their partners, and cancer patients and their families. She's also the co-author of the immensely popular "The Art and Science of Love Weekend Workshop for Couples," and the author of four books, including "Ten Lessons to Transform Your Marriage" and "Baby Makes Three." Wow, those are quite introductions.

Dr. John Gottman 1:52 Yeah. [laughs]

Logan Ury 1:53 Yeah. So thank you so much for joining us. And [audience applauding] So for those people in the audience who aren't as familiar with your work, I wanted to start at the beginning. Who are the Four Horsemen, and why is their presence so dangerous for couples?

Dr. John Gottman 2:13 No, you, you take it.

Dr. Julie Gottman 2:14 No, you.

Dr. John Gottman 2:15 [audience laughing]

Dr. Julie Gottman 2:17 I'll take it. All right. So, um-

Dr. John Gottman 2:19 Pick up the microphone.

Dr. Julie Gottman 2:19 Is this on?

Dr. John Gottman 2:20 [laughs] Yes.

Dr. Julie Gottman 2:22 Yeah, it is on. You can turn it on. [laughs] Okay. All right. So, um, the Four Horsemen, uh, how many of you have heard of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse? Yeah, heard of it? Okay. So these are the big predictors of demise in relationships or, uh, you know, really destroying the path of relationships. The first one is criticism, which is talking down to your partner, uh, blaming your partner for a problem in the relationship, blaming the problem on a personality flaw, basically. Telling your partner they're lazy, they're a slob, they're a jerk, all those lovely words that we hate to hear, right? The second one is contempt, and contempt is even worse. Contempt is criticism, but from a place on high, a superior position. So it's sort of like this. Um, do you remember when you were a teenager? Do you remember when your parents said terrible things to you, and you would go? Remember that expression? That's an expression of contempt. So if you see that in your partner, that's trouble. Sarcasm, abuse, kind of abusive, uh, put-downs, "You're such a bitch," that kind of stuff, uh, not said lightly, uh, really is contempt. And what we learned about contempt was that it was the worst predictor, the most powerful predictor of relationship demise. And not only did it predict relationships going down, the number of contempt expressions that a listener heard in fifteen minutes predicted how many infectious illnesses the listener would have in the next month. Isn't that incredible?

Logan Ury 4:22 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 4:23 So it's frightening. So contempt actually erodes the immune system as well as the heart, the relationship. The third horseman is defensiveness, and defensiveness, uh, is usually either, "I did too pay the bills," you know, kind of that righteous victim thing, or counterattacking. "Oh, yeah? Well, you didn't pick up the dry cleaning." The counterattack. Defensiveness is the hardest one to eliminate. How many of us have been in defensive? I mean, like all of us, right?

Dr. John Gottman 4:59 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 5:00 So John and I are continually still working on that after thirty years. It's, ugh, it's tough. So defensiveness is a response to feeling attacked. That's why we get defensive. The fourth one we call stonewalling, and this was my darling's brilliant research breakthrough, one of them, one of many, which related stonewalling, which means completely shutting down in the middle of a conversation and not giving any response at all, no head nods, looking away usually, looking down, and, you know, hoping that the ogre sitting across from you will go away. That's stonewalling. And what John discovered was that typically when people were stonewalling, their heart rates were above a hundred beats a minute just sitting there. Sometimes it would be as high as a hundred and forty beats a minute. Really high. Meaning they were in fight or flight, that fused physiological arousal, and that was leading them to stonewall. That's our fourth, and it's a problem, too. There you go. Now you can go out and destroy your relationships.

Speaker 6:18 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 6:19 You know how to do it.

Logan Ury 6:21 That's a great introduction. So John, I read a story about you that I really liked, when you met the young, unimpressed publisher of The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, and he said, "Tell me one thing in the next 30 seconds that I can do to improve my marriage right now." Can you please share that story, as well as your favorite advice for couples who want to improve their relationships?

Dr. John Gottman 6:41 Yeah. It was, uh, it was a great moment, because I was trying to convince, uh, Random House to invest money in marketing the book, and, uh, he was unimpressed with the video tapes I presented, so he said, "Tell me one thing I can do to improve my marriage in the next 30 seconds." And I said, "Well, there's a lot of things in the book, but if I had to pick one, I would say it's honor your wife's dreams." And, and this guy sat up, put on his coat, and walked out of the meeting.

Speaker 7:13 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 7:14 I thought, "Okay, I blew that one." He-

Logan Ury 7:15 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 7:16 ... he's the head of marketing, so, uh, but I found out later that he actually went home, uh, he took the subway to Brooklyn, and he walked in, uh, and his wife was there, and she said, "Did you get fired?"

Logan Ury 7:30 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 7:31 And he said, "No, no. I, I, uh, I came home to find out what your dreams are."

Speaker 7:35 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 7:37 'Cause he didn't have a clue.

Logan Ury 7:38 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 7:39 So they had a great conversation that afternoon, and he decided to put money in marketing the book after that.

Speaker 7:44 [laughs]

Logan Ury 7:44 That's so beautiful. And what's your advice for people in the audience for what they can do, maybe not in 30 seconds, but to improve their relationships?

Dr. John Gottman 7:52 You know, I really think Julie hit the nail on the head, because when I thought about it, the w- the work that's required in relationships, um, and we can prove mathematically that relationships are systems that require energy. They're dissipative energy systems. Uh, and if anybody's interested in the math, you could look it up at, in the book that I recently published on it. Uh, but based on the math modeling, you have to do work or the relationship deteriorates over time. And I think the work really is down-regulating your own defensiveness, which means that when your partner is angry with you, or disappointed in you, or you- you've hurt your partner's feelings, instead of reacting really quickly and saying, "Bullshit, I didn't do that," or, you know, "It's your problem," you really wait a beat and, and then when you speak, you say, "Okay, I'm listening. Talk to me." And I think that's the work. It's really, it's hard work, and we still work at it. [laughs] So it doesn't ever get really easier. No one is ev- no one ever feels joyful about their partner's disappointment, or anger with them, or, you know, having hurt your partner's feelings. It's just something that happens all the time. But, you know, people come to our couples weekend workshop, and they're always thinking, "This is great," you know. "I'm glad I'm here, because she really needs this."

Speaker 9:21 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 9:22 "So I'm fine, but she really needs a lot of communication work." Uh, but they're always surprised and horrified that the work really is work you have to do on yourself.

Logan Ury 9:36 So you talked about being a better listener, but I also read your criticism around how some people think active listening is the cure-all for marriages. What are some other misconceptions around what can help save a marriage?

Dr. John Gottman 9:49 Part, part of the reason that active listening is a mistake, you know, the idea that, you know, every time Julie says something, if I'm listening, I paraphrase what she says and summarize it, is that nobody can listen to a person who's attacking them. You know? There has to be responsibility, not just on the listener, but on the speaker as well. So we talk a lot about softened startup, about how the masters of relationship really think before they present an issue, and they, you know, they try to really calm their partner down and say, "Hey, this isn't a big deal, baby, but, you know, here's what I really need." Rather than the four horsemen, they're pointing their fingers at themselves and saying, "This is what I'm feeling, and here's the recipe for being successful with me," instead of pointing the finger at their partner and saying, "You are so..." You know, and, and all of that.

Dr. Julie Gottman 10:45 Can I?

Dr. John Gottman 10:45 Sure.

Dr. Julie Gottman 10:45 Yeah, let me add to that. Um, one of the big misconceptions I think about how to be in a good relationship is, first of all, don't get angry. Anger is a bad thing. And the reality is that anger is not a bad thing, it just is. It's organic. It's part of our brain hardwiring. It's an organic, uh, thing that needs to be expressed, but how it's expressed is the key. So, you know, as we were talking earlier, it can be expressed through criticism or through contempt, or more a description of, "I'm frustrated, I'm furious," than about what, not about who. So, you know, "I'm upset that the kitchen is still a mess." "The kitchen is still a mess" is the situation you're angry about. It's not a personality flaw of a partner. And then saying what you need. It's so important to say what you need, and what you do need rather than what you don't. "I need you to stop being a jerk." Is your partner gonna wanna hear that? I don't think so. So, you know, "I need you to be kind to me when I'm being interviewed in front of, you know, a million people."

Speaker 12:03 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 12:04 So, you know, there's- Hear that?

Logan Ury 12:06 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 12:07 So, um, you know, there's-- So expressing your needs is also, uh, a really important thing to do.

Logan Ury 12:15 So what about sex? How important is sex to a relationship?

Dr. Julie Gottman 12:18 Oh, boy. Our favorite topic.

Logan Ury 12:20 [laughs] I love the name of your website, gotsex.com.

Dr. Julie Gottman 12:23 I know.

Logan Ury 12:24 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 12:25 We didn't think of it. I mean, you know, it had, it took a twenty-five-year-old to think of that.

Logan Ury 12:29 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 12:32 Yeah. So should we talk about sex?

Logan Ury 12:34 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 12:36 Okay. [laughs] So, um, sex is important in a relationship. It's a way of expressing fondness, admiration, love, cherishing the person. But an important thing is that it needs to be personal. It needs to be personal sex. So, you know, what we're talking about there is blending emotional intimacy with physical intimacy. So, you know, lots of people are doing hookups. Everybody's doing hookups these days. That's impersonal sex. You don't know who you're having sex with. So what are you actually doing? Well, you're kind of doing mutual masturbation. You know, you're stimulating each other. So that's not what preserves a relationship. What preserves a relationship is really understanding what turns your partner on, understanding how your partner wants sex to be initiated in a way that's comforting to them, and how, um, a person can refuse sex without destroying the ego of the other person, right? So having those discussions about sex openly and honestly is one of the things that can really help strengthen the physical relationship.

Dr. John Gottman 14:01 I need to take notes 'cause my wife is talking about sex.

Logan Ury 14:04 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 14:06 So, uh, you know, there are a lot of misconceptions about this. Uh, and one of the most common misconceptions is that too much intimacy destroys eroticism. You know, familiarity breeds contempt.

Logan Ury 14:21 I just read Mating in Captivity.

Dr. John Gottman 14:23 Mating in Captivity.

Logan Ury 14:24 Yeah.

Dr. John Gottman 14:24 Good example. Esther Perel says, you know, "Don't wear that flannel nightgown, ladies, because, uh, it'll turn your partner off. You know, wear, wear a sexy negligee, uh, and be mysterious. You know, don't really share all of your secrets with your partner. Have some mystery, and do not cuddle." Cuddling is the death knell for eroticism, and she advises her clients not to cuddle. And in fact, she has advised her clients, uh, to ask for money for sex.

Logan Ury 14:57 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 14:59 And making sex impersonal is, is her recipe for increased eroticism. Well, we actually have good data on this now from seventy thousand people who reported about their intimate sexual relationships online from twenty-four different countries. And in fact, everywhere on the planet, the opposite is true. Couples who kiss one another goodbye when they go to work, uh, turns out that, uh, in, there's a study in Germany, if men kiss their wives, uh, goodbye, you know, versus men who don't, those men who do kiss their wives goodbye live five years longer.

Logan Ury 15:38 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 15:39 So, you know, so what are they tapping into? And all of these, in all of these countries, uh, sex is the same and romance is the same. So people who have great sex lives kiss one another passionately for no reason at all. You know, hug each other. They cuddle. They give surprise gifts, compliments, uh, flowers, and they do the kinds of things that really Esther Perel is saying not to do. Uh, and furthermore, most of us really know how to get underneath that flannel nightgown very easily.

Logan Ury 16:12 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 16:14 I don't wear one.

Logan Ury 16:15 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 16:19 Good.

Logan Ury 16:19 So you've, you've done research into relationships and marriage for the last forty years, and obviously there's been big changes in this space, such as much more women in the work-- many more women in the workplace and many more people meeting through online dating. So through the years of your research, what's changed and what's stayed the same?

Dr. Julie Gottman 16:38 Huh. That's an interesting question. Um, you know, I think, uh, part of what's changed is that, uh, the percentage of women that are having affairs has gone up, uh, because, uh, in the fifties and sixties, early sixties, when data was collected, sort of data was collected back then, women didn't work. Women were at home drinking coffee with their neighbors, and their neighbors were all other women staying home with the kids like they were. So they didn't really have access to other partners outside their spouse. Now, with women having entered the workforce, there's lots of access, and so their percentage of, uh, the ones that are having affairs are going up. But at the same time, you know, what's interesting, I think, is that, um, people still want the same thing for the most part. People, uh, most people still want a committed relationship. Uh, they still want families. They still want something that's long-lasting. They want their partner to be a close friend. Um, they want, you know, maybe this is a little different, they want equality in terms of the roles that each plays in terms of- All the daily activity, taking care of the house, the kids, et cetera. Um, there's more, um, so there is more equality, especially in, you know, the younger generation been raised with those values. Um, and there's more balance, I think, to some degree between, um, men and women in whose career path do you follow. There's more flexibility with that. So men are following women's career paths sometimes too, as well as the other way around. Used to be only the other way around. Um, what do you think, John?

Dr. John Gottman 18:46 Well, I, you know, I would say that, um, the biggest thing that's happened, uh, at least in the last 60 years, is the erosion of trust in our culture. And Robert Putnam, in the book Bowling Alone, talked about this on a societal level, and you see, um, since 1960 in the United States of America, a big decline in community. People are more alone, they're more lonely. Uh, they don't join organizations. And probably the best indicator of this is the disparity between what the poorest people in a culture earn and what the richest people in the culture earn, and this has been growing enormously, so that, you know, earlier in the United States, in the '50s, uh, CEO of major corporations would earn 25 times what the average worker earned, and now CEOs are earning 350 times what the average worker is earning. And if you look even internationally, this erosion of trust is, uh, is reflected at all levels of society. So these indicators of how much do people trust other people, uh, just as a very simple question that sociologists ask on the phone, is related to overall health of people, uh, longevity, school achievement of children, crime. And the statistics are really quite traumatic, uh, both within the United States and internationally. But in an interpersonal level, we've also seen an erosion of trust, so that now the major thing that people want when they select a partner is trustworthiness. That's the, that's the quality they're looking for. And, and I think Julie's right. You know, we want to be with somebody who's really gonna be with us for a lifetime and gonna cherish us and, you know, take care of us when we're sick, be with us for richer or for poorer, just like the wedding vows. But now it's even more important to find somebody who will really stay the course with us, and we can rely on them.

Dr. Julie Gottman 21:01 May I add just one more thing-

Logan Ury 21:02 Yes, please

Dr. Julie Gottman 21:03 ... Logan? Um, I think one of the biggest negative impacts of the past 10 years or so is internet pornography. So, you know, we are seeing, within the clinical world, we are seeing huge impact of internet pornography on couples. Um, of course, there was always, you know, Playboy magazine or something, but it's never been as accessible, as secret, as easy to hide. Uh, and so, you know, millions and millions and millions and millions of people are going on internet porn, and the effect of that when people really, uh, use it frequently is that it changes their expectations of sex with their partner. They want the sex with their partner to look like what they're watching on the computer. And of course, it's impersonal sex that they're watching, and I've seen some of the carryover of that into relationships that really can be very disastrous.

Logan Ury 22:17 Well, that was fascinating and not what I was expecting, so I really appreciate it, and I would love to talk more about trust and how people can build trust, and then after a betrayal, which I think you say is one of the biggest issues in the end of a marriage, how can people repair trust without necessarily breaking up?

Dr. John Gottman 22:36 Why do you want to know?

Speaker 22:37 [laughing]

Dr. John Gottman 22:38 That's what she wants to know.

Logan Ury 22:39 Yeah. What are the foundations of building trust-

Dr. John Gottman 22:41 Okay. So-

Logan Ury 22:42 And what-- how do you repair it?

Dr. John Gottman 22:43 Okay. So-

Logan Ury 22:44 Yeah

Dr. John Gottman 22:45 ... um, here's, here's one of the places where mathematics really illuminates the nature of relationships, and the mathematics that's important is game theory. And, uh, game theory is, you know, this idea that, uh, when people interact, it's as if they were selecting from a set of strategies in order to maximize some metric that has to do with payoff or utility. So it's like, you know, Julie and I are interacting, and each of us are selecting what we're gonna do with one another for some purpose. And turns out that, uh, when you solve, uh, various games and find a solution, that there are two possible solutions that you can come up with. One is called the von Neumann solution, and the von Neumann solution is basically selecting the best of the worst. So you think about, you know, the relationship and you go, "Well, let me cut my losses. I don't want to expect much from this relationship, so let me figure out how not to get hurt," and you interact that way. That, you know, that's one way of solving any game. Another way is called the Nash solution, and John Nash won the Nobel Prize for this solution, and here what you try to do is get to the best for both people. And so the metric you're trying to maximize is not only your own benefit, but your partner's benefit as well. So trust is really having a metric where you care as much about how your partner does as you do about how you do, where you really care about your partner's feelings, your partner's needs as much as you care about your own. And that's how you build trust, is really the idea of I have my partner's back, which is I know that when Julie and I are negotiating some decision we're trying to make, and I have one point of view and she has another point of view, that she's all-- she's thinking not only about herself, she's thinking also about me and, you know, and how I'm gonna fare and what's good for me, and I'm thinking about that as well for her. We're gonna arrive at the Nash equilibrium, the Nash solution. Well, how do you arrive at that? And what our research tells us is that the way to build trust is to be there as a great listener when your partner is upset. The negative emotions are the magic moments for connecting. So, you know, not what you would think, which is really that, you know, that couples who build trust appear to have a motto in which they're saying, "Baby, when you're in pain, the world stops, and I listen. I care. I care about what you feel, I care about what you need," and that's what builds trust.

Dr. Julie Gottman 25:41 Okay. Um, and let me add a little bit to that and then talk about how to recover when there's been a betrayal. So, um, part of being trustworthy is when your partner turns towards you for anything, you know, just a bid for attention or, um, a need of some sort, or they're really tired, they want you, you to do a little extra housework or something. What do you do? Do you turn towards them and say, "Sure, yeah, I'll, I'll take care of that for you"? Or do you simply ignore them? You know, if they call your name and you're right in the middle of reading something or you're doing your email, what do you do? Do you stop your email and say, "Yeah"? Or do you keep doing your email? Or do you say, "Stop interrupting me. I'm finishing my work," which is turning against, right? So there's a huge difference in building trust in terms of turning towards versus turning away, where you don't respond at all, versus turning against. So the more you can turn towards your partner, the deeper the friendship is, the more your partner trusts you to be there for you, uh, and the more your partner may also be willing to give back to you, so it deepens the trust system between the two of you, which is wonderful. Okay. So let's talk about betrayal, um, and what leads up to betrayal. Part of what, what leads up to betrayal, um, which we've seen in our work, uh, is people avoid conflict. Isn't that interesting? So John was saying something wonderful a moment ago, which is negative moments are magic. They are opening a door to greater intimacy, because if you process, if you actually talk about those negative emotions you may be having, even about your partner or about something else, your partner is learning what's important to you. Your partner is learning, you know, what you really need, what you really feel. They may be learning more about, you know, the baggage from your past that you brought into this relationship. It's all, it's all important. So, um, you don't avoid conflict if you want to build trust. If you do, what starts happening is the resentment builds up, right? You're unhappy about stuff. Um, you are not talking about it. You get more and more and more unhappy, and the more the resentment builds, the more distance grows between you, and then eventually you grow quite lonely, right? Because you've been looking to your partner for a deeper connection, and it ain't there. So what happens? You start comparing your partner to somebody else, somebody at work who you just had this lovely conversation with, you know, at the popcorn bin. So, right, he does have popcorn. [laughing] Yeah. So, um, and that's a lovely conversation, and you think, "God, that person was so warm and so friendly and so outgoing," and you start comparing the partner at home to this one, and it's those negative comparisons, "My partner wouldn't do that. My partner wouldn't smile at me like that." The negative comparisons then lead you towards confiding in that person more, maybe, and then eventually talking to that person about your own relationship, et cetera, and they're going, "Oh, poor dear, poor dear," and being sympathetic, and before you know it, you know, there's bonding and eventual infidelity. So that's one common path. How do you recover? Well, first of all, you don't lie about it in the first place. It's got to be open. If a person is deceiving and lying about having an affair, it's a double betrayal. One, going outside of monogamy, if that's been your agreement, and two, lying about it. So, um, what needs to happen In terms of the recovery, and we're gonna be doing a research project on this, is, and typically this needs to happen in therapy, it's very hard to do it outside. First, the person who's been betrayed needs to be able to ask all the questions they have about the affair, and the betrayer needs to be able to answer those questions. But what's also important is that the person who's been betrayed typically suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder. You guys have all heard of that, right? In relation to combat vets or maybe abuse histories. Same thing happens with an affair. That's what you're causing the partner. So they become hypervigilant, they're constantly suspecting an IED, you know, another affair. They are waking up at night with nightmares. They're having intrusive images into their mind of you with the other person, uh, which they don't wanna have, but they're having anyway, and their emotions are spiking all over the place. They're having big explosions. That's all PTSD. So that needs to be explained. And then, um, uh, the person who's done the betraying needs to be able to really hear the feelings of the betra- of the person who's been betrayed, right? So the betrayer needs to hear the feelings of the betrayed, really hear them. But here's where therapy comes in. Therapy needs to somewhat coach the person who's been betrayed to not use contempt and criticism to express the anger and pain that they have. As that process slowly winds down, which it does, then you look at rebuilding marriage number two, because an affair destroys marriage number one. But you can still build marriage number two by opening up how to do conflict in a much better way, how to turn toward the other person, how to express honest admiration. And over time, the relationship is rebuilt, and oftentimes it's stronger than ever. So people definitely do recover from affairs if they get some help.

Logan Ury 32:42 Thank you. So I wanna shift gears a little bit. You two are the experts on marriage, and this has been a big year for gay marriage. And in all the research that I study on relationships and marriage, so much of it is focused on heterosexual couples. I know you've done some work with the lesbian community. Can you talk a bit about any differences that you see either with gender roles or any other changes, uh, in a gay relationship?

Dr. John Gottman 33:07 Uh, my colleague Bob Levinson and I, uh, studied committed gay and lesbian couples for a dozen years. And, uh, we found the same principles apply to gay and lesbian committed relationships as to, uh, heterosexual married couples. Um, there, there were some differences qualitatively. Um, one, one really interesting difference was that, um, most heterosexual couples in, in the subcultures in the United States, except for Latino and Hispanic subcultures, are very embarrassed talking about sex, even when there's no camera there, uh, with one another, and, you know, are very indirect in what they ask for, are very, uh... don't have a way of initiating sex, a formal way of talking about it. And so, uh, gay and lesbian couples were very different from heterosexual couples that way. They were very open and very, you know, direct in talking about what they needed sexually. But the overriding difference was that gay and lesbian couples were a lot nicer to each other than heterosexual couples.

Logan Ury 34:16 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 34:17 They, they were gentler in the way they presented, you know, their conflicts, and they were less defensive, and there was more of a sense of humor. And, uh, and we know that there's a lot more sensitivity in, uh, in gay and lesbian couples to power differentials in the relationship and a desire, maybe 'cause there's less choice, only 10% of the population is gay or lesbian, um, because there's less choice, I think they're more willing to have an equal relationship, even if there are differences in income or education, to really make sure that there's not that power differential. That's kind of what we found.

Logan Ury 35:00 Do you, do you predict anything will change as it goes from committed long-term relationships to official marriage?

Dr. John Gottman 35:05 Yes, I really do. I think, um, I think the difference is that they will feel, gay and lesbian couples will feel more a part of society rather than, uh, defensive about who they are. They're really-- They'll be accepted. Um, they'll be, you know, really, you know, treated as equals.

Dr. Julie Gottman 35:30 Yeah, let me add to that a little bit, um, less positive note. Uh, but first, um, I did the first study in the country on, um, when daughters were raised by lesbian mothers, um, how did they turn out compared to the daughters of hetero moms? Um, and this was back in 1980, uh, when kids were in custody situations with the hetero parent when the mom wanted to go live a lesbian lifestyle, and the kids were being taken away from the mother every single time because she was lesbian, and they would often be given to a heroin-addicted father, um, and a alcoholic grandfather. They'd be given to anybody else, but taken away from the mother. So, uh, the study that I was fortunate to do and very supported by many, many lesbian moms and their daughters showed that, of course, uh, the daughters, who are now adults, were actually doing better having been raised by lesbian moms in terms of social adjustment, and there were no differences in gender identity and sexual orientation. It was exactly the same. So now, um, the thing that I'm beginning to hear, which really frightens me, which you guys might wanna be aware of, is that as gay marriage has now become, uh, the law, there are groups in America who are trying to roll back the laws about gay adoption, uh, because the stuff, you know, the research that I and many others did at that time allowed gay parents, lesbian parents, uh, or gay and lesbian couples to adopt kids. Well, now they're trying to roll it back. So, um, there's still tension in this issue despite the fact that, hooray, you know, gay and lesbians can now marry.

Logan Ury 37:38 That's really interesting. Yeah.

Dr. John Gottman 37:40 Yeah. And, and subsequent research to Julie's landmark study has replicated that effect and shown that, uh, gay and lesbian couples are, you know, every bit as, as good parents. And in fact, my personal experience, you know, sort of trailing along as a spouse when Julie gave talks for, uh, concerned gay and lesbian parents, was that they're much more concerned than heterosexual parents about will they be terrible parents? And, you know, they really go for parental education classes and workshops. So I think just the opposite is true, and I think it's worthwhile raising this alarm.

Logan Ury 38:18 Yeah. The kids are all right.

Dr. John Gottman 38:20 Yeah, they are.

Dr. Julie Gottman 38:21 The kids are great.

Logan Ury 38:21 Yeah. So I've been wondering this for a long time. You're famous for your ability to predict a couple's success rate for staying together in the next three to five years with more than 90% accuracy. So as you're doing research and you see a couple that's really, you know, the four horsemen are present, there's all these issues, do you say anything to them?

Dr. John Gottman 38:39 [laughs]

Logan Ury 38:40 Do you say, "You better watch out," or, "Don't get married?" [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 38:44 [laughs] Not in private.

Dr. John Gottman 38:45 It's the season, right?

Logan Ury 38:46 And then I was wondering, are you ever at a coffee shop or on an airplane and you hear a couple-

Dr. Julie Gottman 38:50 [laughs]

Logan Ury 38:50 ... do you ever go up to them and say, "Listen, there's just nothing working here." [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 38:54 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 38:55 Oh, God. Wait, I-

Dr. John Gottman 38:57 I'm desperate to talk to them.

Logan Ury 38:58 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 38:58 So, um, no, see, that's how he accepts influence. That's another really important thing-

Logan Ury 39:04 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 39:05 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 39:05 ... in terms of successful relationships. So, um-

Dr. John Gottman 39:09 It's enlightened self-interest.

Dr. Julie Gottman 39:10 Right. [laughs]

Logan Ury 39:13 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 39:14 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 39:15 So, uh, first of all, no, we don't do that.

Logan Ury 39:17 Okay. [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 39:18 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 39:18 Um, otherwise we'd never get invited to dinner as it is.

Logan Ury 39:21 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 39:21 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 39:22 When that came out in the public, our invitations-

Logan Ury 39:25 It would save people time

Dr. Julie Gottman 39:25 ... dropped down to just ... So, um, we don't typically do that, uh, because these are group statistics, right? They're all group statistics, so there's always exceptions in group statistics. On the other hand, I have to tell you a story, which is we have one child, one daughter. We were really old when we had her, so any of you who have old parents know that your parents will dote all over you and, you know, hover and protect you. So when our daughter was two, John put her in front of the TV with videos from the lab and said, "What do you think about how that father and, you know, what do, what do you think about those two?"

Logan Ury 40:09 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 40:09 "You know, are they doing okay or not?" And we've been doing that with her-

Logan Ury 40:15 The whole thing.

Dr. Julie Gottman 40:15 I mean, you know.

Logan Ury 40:16 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 40:16 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 40:17 We not only started a college fund, but a psychotherapy fund.

Logan Ury 40:20 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 40:21 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 40:21 She's the daughter of two psychologists. So, um, yeah, we rarely tell people they should split up, but every now and then we do when it's, when there's definite abuse and no clear path towards change.

Dr. John Gottman 40:41 Sometimes it's really painful. I, you know, we, uh, we did this study of, uh, couples having a first baby, and we followed them f- from a couple months after the wedding, and we found that two-thirds of them had a big drop in relationship happiness in the first three years of the baby's life, you know? Two-thirds of them. And when Julie and I designed this workshop, two-day workshop called Bringing Baby Home, we could reverse that trend for almost 80% of the couples in just two days.

Logan Ury 41:15 Wow.

Dr. John Gottman 41:16 Right? We could do that. And we were at a restaurant recently, and I saw this young couple, uh, and they had a new baby, and they also had, you know, about a five-year-old girl, and they weren't speaking to each other throughout the whole dinner, and the glances were pretty negative. Uh, and I was just dying to go over to them and say-

Logan Ury 41:38 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 41:38 ... "Would you take our workshop?"

Logan Ury 41:40 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 41:40 [laughs] "Because you could avoid all of this pain in such a short time and prevent this misery." But, you know, now I don't feel I can do that, go over to somebody and say that, but I would really appreciate that.

Logan Ury 41:53 It's like to have a superpower.

Dr. John Gottman 41:55 [laughs] Right.

Dr. Julie Gottman 41:56 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 41:56 Right. Yeah.

Logan Ury 41:58 So I, I have so many more questions. I'm gonna just ask one so that we can open it up to the audience afterward. But in my own personal research and talking to people about their relationships, the question I get the most is, "How do I know if I'm with the right person?"

Dr. John Gottman 42:10 Yeah.

Logan Ury 42:10 And, "When do I settle down?" and, "Are my standards too high?" And through you, I discovered the research of Dan Balcom about, um, realistic versus idealistic standards. I was wondering if you could talk a bit about this.

Dr. John Gottman 42:22 Yeah.

Logan Ury 42:22 Especially for people in the audience or on YouTube who are thinking, "Am I with the right person?" or, "How do I find the right person?"

Dr. John Gottman 42:28 You know, every couple of months when I used to watch Oprah Winfrey- There'd be this depressed psychiatrist-

Dr. Julie Gottman 42:35 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 42:35 ... on, you know, as an expert on relationships, and he, his advice was always, "Lower your expectations," you know. And, and he said, "Don't expect anything from people," you know-

Dr. Julie Gottman 42:46 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 42:46 ... 'cause, you know, it's really gonna be bad if you, if you expect something. You'll always be disappointed. This guy looked so depressed.

Dr. Julie Gottman 42:53 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 42:55 And so, but you hear this advice over and over again, "Don't expect anything," 'cause expect- high expectations are the death knell of relationship. So Don Baucom at the University of North Carolina spent a decade studying this, and he found just the opposite, that when people expect to be treated well, that's what they get in relationships. And when people have lowered their expectations so that they're okay being treated like dirt, that's what they get. [laughs] So his advice was, have high expectations and, you know, expect to be treated well, and bail out of a relationship if you're getting treated badly.

Dr. Julie Gottman 43:35 Um, one of the things that I really love, uh, to tell folks, um, is how does your partner make you feel about yourself? So if when you're with that partner you feel handsome, you feel beautiful, you feel smart, you feel cherished, you feel, uh, like, you know, your partner really respects you, uh, that's a sign that the relationship is a good one. If, on the other hand, you feel insecure, you feel nervous, you feel scared, you feel like, "Oh, God, was that a stupid thing I just said?" Um, uh, "How come they're not responding? Uh, why are they always looking away? Why are they looking at other people instead of looking at me?" Those kinds of questions indicate to you that, you know, a big question mark in terms of whether the relationship is really working for you.

Dr. John Gottman 44:40 Yeah. Let me tell a, a story. I, I was, uh, uh, talking to somebody at a shop, this shopkeeper, and she said, "You know, I'm now really in a good relationship. But I used to be in this relationship where the guy always said to me, you know, 'Why do you have to laugh so much?'"

Dr. Julie Gottman 44:56 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 44:57 "And why do you have to laugh so loud? Can't you think before you laugh?"

Dr. Julie Gottman 45:00 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 45:01 That was his message to me. And she said, "You know, when I was thinking about it, you know, nobody thinks before they laugh. They just laugh or they don't laugh, right? And I'm now with somebody who just loves the way I laugh. And, you know, I'm with this guy and he's just perfect."

Speaker 45:21 That's a beautiful story.

Dr. Julie Gottman 45:22 That's amazing.

Speaker 45:22 And I'm also really happy about what you said about keeping high standards, because I think this community especially is one where people are gonna hold off until they find the right person.

Dr. John Gottman 45:31 Yeah.

Speaker 45:31 And I think that's a great reminder that you shouldn't lower your standards, even if your family and friends are telling you to.

Dr. Julie Gottman 45:35 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 45:38 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 45:40 Spoken like a strong young woman. [laughs]

Speaker 45:44 We'll see how my boyfriend and I do at your workshop this weekend. [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 45:48 [laughs] We'll be watching you.

Speaker 45:50 So I wanna make sure that people in the audience have a chance to ask questions. There's a mic right here, so please feel free to come up to the podium and ask a question. Don't be shy. If you, if you're able to make your way up, or I'll just pass the microphone back.

Dr. Julie Gottman 46:06 I can yell, too.

Speaker 46:07 Yeah.

Dr. John Gottman 46:08 Oh.

Dr. Julie Gottman 46:09 And we've got one right here, or not.

Speaker 46:12 Thank you.

Dr. Julie Gottman 46:12 No?

Speaker 46:14 I'm actually a counselor in Washington, and I see couples and individuals, adult individuals, and one of the things that I've shifted in my practice now is that I'm seeing more, uh, arranged marriages in my practice.

Dr. John Gottman 46:27 Oh.

Speaker 46:27 And it feels like it's a whole different ball of wax doing counseling with them, and I'm wondering, have you done any research on, uh, arranged marriages versus one where here in the US we get to select?

Dr. John Gottman 46:40 Uh, we haven't systematically studied arranged marriages, but there is quite a big research literature on this. And, [clears throat] and you know, I just wanna say that the same principles apply, that respect and affection is what makes those relationships work. Now, arranged marriages are very different when they're, when they're in the community that has arranged the marriages, 'cause then there's a lot of social support. And sociologists has, have found that it's not religiosity or any of that that determines the greater stability of arranged marriages, but that continued social support. So if a couple has an arranged marriage in Calcutta, then they move to Seattle, very different kinda situation, and they're at some peril because they don't have that community of support that intervenes when he loses his job or, you know, they're running through some difficult times.

Dr. Julie Gottman 47:36 On the other hand, [clears throat] um, one has to be pretty careful, uh-

Speaker 47:43 Right

Dr. Julie Gottman 47:44 ... in term- I've done a lot of work with arranged marriages as well, uh, and one of the things to look out for in terms of that community support is because the marriage has been arranged, the people who've arranged it have great investment in it continuing, right? And in the event that there's some domestic violence, which I've seen a lot of, uh, they do not wanna support, typically, the wife to leave. Uh, and they want her to stay, and they tell her to put up with it. "It's been put up with for generations. Oh, well. It's okay. Be a good wife." Uh, and that is a problem.

Dr. John Gottman 48:25 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Gottman 48:25 Big problem.

Speaker 48:29 Oh, and do you wanna come up? [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 48:33 Question.

Logan Ury 48:34 Um, so [laughs]

Speaker 48:37 [laughs]

Logan Ury 48:38 So I've read, uh, uh, several of your books, and I really enjoy them. But, um, I noticed that a lot of your research is focused on long-term couples. Um, for people who are single or just starting to date, um, do you have any books that you recommend or that you wrote, um-

Dr. Julie Gottman 48:55 So, you know, part of the problem is that there has been this much research on dating and single people and how to pick a good relationship. Um, so all of the internet stuff, I mean, there is no research that backs it up. Uh, and so we need to do that research. We would love to do that research. We have thoughts about doing that research. We don't have the money to do that research.

Speaker 49:22 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 49:23 But, uh, you know, it's a very valid thing to be looking at, 'cause people, especially if they're coming out of divorced homes, and many are, don't know what to look for in terms of a decent relationship. So good question.

Dr. John Gottman 49:41 You know, uh, one of the things that, that's so interesting about, you know, uh, research on relationships at the beginning, selecting somebody, is that the research is just awful. And part of the problem is that, um, these matching services are using the wrong algorithm. They're trying to help people find their clone, okay? Find somebody just like you, who has the same interests, the same philosophy of life, the same personality. And from what we know about just the, just what, how pheromones work in initial selection, people select T-shirts that smell good based upon, you know, the pheromones there. They're selecting the genetic- the genetically more diverse person on the major histocompatibility complex. They're selecting people who are different from them, very different from them. So, you know, we've got the wrong algorithm there. And, uh, you know, that's just an indicator that, uh, we really don't know how to help people select the right mate. But I think that the guide is to find somebody who really likes the way you laugh, and thinks you're funny-

Speaker 50:54 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 50:54 ... you know, and really enjoys your company, and you enjoy their company, and that's, that's really the best guide we have at the moment.

Logan Ury 51:02 I'd love to hear this guy's question.

Speaker 51:03 [laughs]

Logan Ury 51:05 It better be really great.

Dr. John Gottman 51:07 No pressure.

Logan Ury 51:08 No pressure. [laughs]

Speaker 51:09 One thing I find interesting about your work is that it's based on data. And, uh, like the, uh, it was quoted earlier that during the stonewalling, the, the beat rate went up to 100, 140. And, um, I guess that made me really curious. Is that conducted in a laboratory setting? Are couples then put in a contentious situation-

Speaker 51:30 [laughs]

Speaker 51:31 ... in, in a lab in a study?

Dr. John Gottman 51:35 Uh, you know, we ha- we, we've studied them in several ways. One is, you know, standard kind of situations that are designed to elicit conflict or having them talk about how their day went after they've been apart for at least eight hours. But in the, in the love lab that I built at the University of Washington, couples just hang out for 24 hours, and the videotapes just roll with no instructions at all. So we watch them having dinner, we watch them reading the newspaper, uh, you know, cleaning up after dinner, stuff like that. So there you can just look at everyday moments. And they're wearing halter monitors, so we're looking at their heart rate, electrocardiogram, and when they urinate, we take a urine sample and measure stress hormones.

Speaker 52:20 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 52:20 And we take blood from them, too. But frankly, I'm curious-

Speaker 52:23 [laughs]

Logan Ury 52:24 There's no cameras in the bathroom.

Speaker 52:26 [laughs]

Speaker 52:28 Thank you.

Speaker 52:29 Yeah. Um, my name's Craig. I'm here with my wife, Wendy, 28 years.

Speaker 52:34 Aw.

Speaker 52:35 Um, but you mentioned at the very start, uh, the four horsemen, and I can think of many times in our relationship when all four have been present, stampeding through the room-

Speaker 52:47 [laughs]

Speaker 52:48 ... um, causing hate and destruction and everything.

Dr. Julie Gottman 52:51 [laughs]

Speaker 52:51 Um, but yet we've still managed to... Oops, sorry. Not my phone. Uh, still managed to continue on, and I was wondering, you know, if, if the presence of the four horsemen is always there and you're just trying to keep them at bay, or is it trying to not ever let them exist in your relationship? I guess I'm a little confused there because I've, we, we should have broken up many, many years ago because of the horsemen's presence for so many times, but at the same time, we seem to have survived past that, and yet they're still there, so.

Dr. Julie Gottman 53:25 Righto. Righto. I mean, they are for us, too, right? So, you know, we're all human beings, and as human beings, we do have moments when we are not editing ourselves, right? [laughs] Um, have you guys ever heard of Cokie Roberts?

Speaker 53:41 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Gottman 53:41 Know who she is? She's an NPR fabulous political commentator. And she and her husband, who was a senator from Tennessee, wrote a book about their marriage, and one of the things that they said that was wonderful is the sign of a good marriage is how many teeth marks you have on your tongue.

Speaker 53:58 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 54:00 Right? So, you know, what we saw in our research, though, is that, you know, despite having high expectations for your marriage, there's also, um, our concept of what is the good enough marriage. Good enough, right? So that doesn't mean perfect. Nobody, uh, really gets away in their marriage without having incidents of being critical or defensive or, you know, even contemptuous, whatever. I mean, we all will slide into that from time to time. This is a very critical culture we've grown up in. So we come by it righteously. We know what criticism looks like, most of us, and so it comes trippingly to the tongue, you know, when we're angry about something. So, um, what we saw, though, is that the couples who were successful, um, had a little bit less of it, but they still did it from time to time, but they made repairs. They made repairs after they were critical, after they were contemptuous, after they were too defensive or stonewalling. They would go back and say, "You know what? I really hated how I just put you down half an hour ago. I, I want to apologize for that." And they might have a conversation about, "What was going on with you, you know, when that happened?" Um, and what we've seen in our clinical work, it's one of the tools that we give in our couples workshops that you, too, will get to learn, uh, is that, um, when couples can go back and process a regrettable incident, you know, a bad fight they've had, as if they were sitting in the upper balcony of a theater looking down on the stage and saying, "What the heck happened during act one?" And understand from their partner's point of view what their partner was feeling, what their partner was perceiving, um, and do that in both directions, really listening to the other person, and then owning responsibility for whatever they contributed to that regrettable incident. It's, it's a beautiful way of, again, taking something negative that's happened and turning it into magic, turning it into understanding the other person's kind of inner life in a much deeper way.

Logan Ury 56:34 I think we have time for one more quick question.

Speaker 56:36 Okay. Very well. Thank you so much for, uh, for coming today. For those of us who have young children but aren't able to, uh, attend your two-day workshop, what are some of the things, uh, that are specific to couples with young children, uh, both in terms of the problems that they experience and also in terms of the strategies that they can use?

Dr. John Gottman 56:59 Hmm. Sure. Uh, one of the things that is very important is that when you become a parent, you've made a huge philosophical leap. Um, I'm sure you experienced this when you became a father, that you become infinitely vulnerable, right? I mean, no question that you'd stop a Mack truck to save your kid's life. Automatically, you know that if something bad happened to your kid, it'd be disastrous, and you've immediately joined the family of man, family of mankind, humanity, and you become so vulnerable, and you're able to love at a level, you know, that is beyond what you imagined. So it's a huge change, and loving this creature together with your wife, with your partner, is, you know, a very powerful bond. And part of what we teach in this workshop is how to listen to babies, how to understand that babies operate on a completely different timescale from us, much slower. And if you can slow down and be with your baby and enjoy, you know, the fact that there is no toy on the planet that is as interesting to your baby as your face, and there's no music as interesting as your voice to that baby, and it's a hell of a lot of fun to be with that child and spend time with that child. And, uh, I'll tell you one really quick story, which is-

Dr. Julie Gottman 58:44 And I get to talk. [laughing]

Dr. John Gottman 58:46 Okay, and then you get to talk.

Speaker 58:47 [laughing]

Dr. John Gottman 58:49 Uh, we were, we were talking to, uh, the Tulalip, uh, Reservation one time and, uh, and we were talking about the importance of listening to children. And, uh, and they were saying, "Well, you know, people have been telling us, speakers have been telling us to tell stories to children, stories about our culture and our people, and you're telling us to listen." And I asked people, "You know, how many of you remember what it was like to be a kid?" And, you know, some hands went up, and I said, "Of those of you who remember what it was like to be a child, uh, how many of you had an adult who treated you with respect and kindness and listened to you?" And only a few hands stayed up. And I said, "Would you be willing to share your stories?" And all those people talked and wept as they talked about the fact that, "My grandmother, when I walked into a room, she would brighten and sit down and drop what she was doing and listen to me and celebrated me and found me interesting and respected me." So I think that's really what I would recommend as the key thing, is to learn how to listen to your child.

Dr. Julie Gottman 59:59 Okay, so let me ask you something. Are you sleep-deprived, or is your partner?

Speaker 1:00:03 [laughing]

Speaker 1:00:05 Yes and yes.

Speaker 1:00:06 [laughing]

Dr. Julie Gottman 1:00:08 Okay, then. Let me just mention to you, uh, that sleep deprivation is a biggie for young parents. And, um, after thirty days, typically, of interrupted night's sleep, people will, almost everyone will show many, many signs of clinical depression. What that means is that young parents tend to be more irritable with one another, a little bit more- Withdrawn, more exhausted, conflict goes up. Aren't you glad you had children?

Dr. John Gottman 1:00:45 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 1:00:46 And, um, you know, wonderful moments, too, but the work has tripled, and you're exhausted all the time. So part of what we really recommend, um, is not only listening to your kids, but listening to each other. So having, if you can have what we call a little ritual of connection, uh, which means, uh, a time of connecting with your partner that you can really count on, that's predictable. If you can have a stress-reducing conversation in the evenings, even when you're exhausted, of, "How was your day, dear? Tell me about your day." And each of you can whine and complain to each other. Um, that is really useful, where people are just empathizing with one another, um, to stay connected. Because when you're so busy, you know, parents find they don't have much time to just talk to each other, hang out with each other. So it's really important to build in rituals of connection to do that, um, that are talking about things other than, uh, did you call the plumber? So that's one. Another is, if at all possible, have a date night. Have a date night where you go out, you know, once a week. Even when the kids are little, you can do that. Um, and third, if you can possibly, depends on how old your kids are, once in a while have an overnight. You know, just, it's, all you'll do is talk about your kids.

Dr. John Gottman 1:02:24 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 1:02:24 You know that. But you won't be interrupted while you're doing that.

Dr. John Gottman 1:02:29 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 1:02:29 Which is a good thing.

Dr. John Gottman 1:02:30 Get our book.

Dr. Julie Gottman 1:02:31 And-

Dr. John Gottman 1:02:32 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 1:02:32 They can get our book.

Dr. John Gottman 1:02:34 Thank you. Thanks for-

Dr. Julie Gottman 1:02:35 Yeah. So our book has all this stuff in it.

Dr. John Gottman 1:02:38 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Gottman 1:02:38 Um, but anyway. So, you know, staying connected with your partner is super important, and building in those rituals of connection where you can really count on talking to each other is wonderful. Helps the marriage.

Dr. John Gottman 1:02:54 Thank you.

Dr. Julie Gottman 1:02:55 Yes.

Logan Ury 1:02:56 Well, that's all, that's it for time. But thank you so much. This was really a dream of mine. [applauding]