Alex Honnold Interview | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)

1. 0:00 – 10:31

   Growing Up in Sacramento and Starting to Climb

   1. TFTim Ferriss0:00

      Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

   2. SPSpeaker0:06

      Can I ask you a personal question?

   3. TFTim Ferriss0:08

      Now we're receiving a broken code. What if I give you everything?

   4. SPSpeaker0:12

      I'm a cybernetic organism. Living tissue over metal endoskeleton. The Tim Ferriss Show.

   5. TFTim Ferriss0:23

      This episode is brought to you by 99designs. When your business needs a logo, website, business card, thumbnail or any other design, I recommend checking out 99designs. I use them myself. I've used them for many years. I use them to create book cover prototypes for The 4-Hour Body, which went on to becoming number one New York Times bestseller. I've also used them for banner ads, illustrations, and much more. With 99designs, you get a variety of original designs from designers around the world. Give your feedback, and then pick your favorite. Your happiness is guaranteed. So check out some of my competitions and designs and some of your competitions and designs from fellow Tim Ferriss Show listeners at 99designs.com/tim. And right now you can get a free $99 upgrade on your first design. So check it out, 99designs.com/tim. This episode is brought to you by Headspace. More than 80% of the people I have interviewed, world-class performers across the military, entertainment, sports, and beyond, all have some type of meditative practice. I tried for years and years and failed miserably. The key is making it simple, and you can dramatically improve your life in just 10 minutes a day, and technology can help you. This change comes through guided meditation, and Headspace is by far the most popular app for this purpose. More than four million users, it's meditation made simple. So what I recommend is that you take this practice, meditation, which is rooted in thousands of years of tradition, supported by thousands of scientific studies, and try it for 10 minutes a day for 10 days. That's all you need to do. You could also check out the founder, Andy Puddicombe's, uh, TED Talk, which has more than 5.5 million views. His last name is P-U-D-D-I-C-O-M-B-E, if you wanna look that up. But otherwise, download the free Headspace app, I have it on my phone, and begin their Take 10 program for 10 days of guided meditation, completely free, 10 minutes a day. That's all it takes. You should give it a shot. Headspace.com/tim. Just go to headspace.com/tim. Hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where each episode it is my job to deconstruct a world-class performer, to tease out the habits, routines, tips, favorite books, et cetera, that you can use, whether that is someone like Jamie Foxx or a chess prodigy or a special operations commander and everybody in between. This episode we have Alex Honnold. I've wanted to interview Alex for a very, very long time. You can find him on facebook.com/alexhonnold, H-O-N-N-O-L-D. He is a professional adventure rock climber whose free solo, that means no ropes, no partner, ascents of America's biggest cliffs, have made him one of the most recognized and followed climbers in the world. If you want to sweat profusely from your palms, you can watch videos of Alex, and I'll put them in the Show Notes at fourhourworkweek.com/podcast. Uh, Honnold is distinguished for his uncanny ability to control fear while scaling cliffs of dizzying heights without a rope to protect him, and we really dig into that, how he looks at risk, fear, addresses both in training and with these first ascent attempts and so on. His most celebrated achievements include the first and only free solos of the Moonlight Buttress, that's a 5.12d, which means super fucking hard. Uh, that's 1,200 feet in Zion National Park in Utah. And the Northwest Face, that's a 5.12a, of Half Dome, 2,200 feet, and that is in Yosemite in California, right in my backyard. Beautiful spot. In 2012, he achieved Yosemite's first triple solo, climbing, that means in succession, the national park's three largest faces, Mount Watkins, Half Dome, and El Capitan alone, and all in under 24 hours. He is the founder of the Honnold Foundation, an environmental nonprofit. And to this day, and perhaps one of the most fascinating aspects of Alex, is he maintains a very, very minimalist dirt-bag climber existence, and that's not meant as a slight. That is meant as a compliment. Living out of his van, and I think he's done that for the last 10 years or so, despite the fact that he has big sponsors, and traveling the world in search of the next great vertical adventure. So we dig into all sorts of things. And without further ado, I will let you hear the wide-ranging conversation that I had with Alex Honnold. [upbeat music] Alex, welcome to the show.

   6. SPSpeaker4:53

      Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me.

   7. TFTim Ferriss4:55

      I have wanted to interview you ever since I first saw footage of you climbing.

   8. SPSpeaker5:01

      Yeah.

   9. TFTim Ferriss5:01

      Because I trained long ago at Mission Cliffs here in San Francisco, and did top roping. Never have climbed outside except for Castle Rock. I don't know if you know the place.

   10. SPSpeaker5:12

       Yeah, by Santa Cruz.

   11. TFTim Ferriss5:13

       Exactly.

   12. SPSpeaker5:13

       That's where I started as a kid, kinda.

   13. TFTim Ferriss5:14

       Really? S-

   14. SPSpeaker5:15

       Yeah, it's one of my local areas.

   15. TFTim Ferriss5:16

       So you grew up in Sacramento?

   16. SPSpeaker5:18

       Yeah.

   17. TFTim Ferriss5:18

       Or am I making that up?

   18. SPSpeaker5:18

       Yeah, I grew up in Sacramento.

   19. TFTim Ferriss5:20

       And what was your upbringing like? I mean, if you had to describe your childhood, how would you take a stab at it?

   20. SPSpeaker5:26

       Uh, just, just normal suburban life. You know, Sacramento, good times.

   21. TFTim Ferriss5:29

       Good times. Sac Town.

   22. SPSpeaker5:31

       Yeah, yeah.

   23. TFTim Ferriss5:31

       I haven't spent a lot of time there. I mean, Mark Bell, who's a buddy, has a gym called Super Training Gym up there. He's, I think, one of the top 10 in his weight class of all time.

   24. SPSpeaker5:39

       Mm-hmm.

   25. TFTim Ferriss5:40

       That is the extent of my exposure to Sacramento, is just hanging out with him, then feeling really weak.

   26. SPSpeaker5:44

       Hmm.

   27. TFTim Ferriss5:44

       Which probably would've been the experience if I'd gone climbing with you, even in the early days. What did your parents do?

   28. SPSpeaker5:50

       Uh, my parents are both teachers or professors.

   29. TFTim Ferriss5:52

       What did they teach?

   30. SPSpeaker5:53

       Um, they taught language, like, uh, English as a second language and French, mostly.
2. 10:31 – 14:59

   Engineering Dreams, Legos, and Family

   1. TFTim Ferriss10:31

      I, uh-

   2. SPSpeaker10:31

      [laughs]

   3. TFTim Ferriss10:32

      I wonder what, what did you think you were going to be or what did you fantasize about becoming when you grew up when you were a kid?

   4. SPSpeaker10:39

      I mean, as a kid, I th- thought I was gonna become an engineer or something, you know? I just thought I would have some normal job and-

   5. TFTim Ferriss10:45

      Mm-hmm

   6. SPSpeaker10:45

      ... um, I mean, when I was growing up, there really wasn't a professional climbing scene. Like, you couldn't really be a professional climber 'cause the whole climbing industry hadn't really taken off, and there weren't so many gyms, and it, it was like a different world. So I never thought that I was gonna be a climber. Um, I just thought that I'd have some random job.

   7. TFTim Ferriss11:01

      You, uh, now I'm going off the internet here, so that's a, that's a risky business.

   8. SPSpeaker11:05

      Yeah.

   9. TFTim Ferriss11:06

      But, uh, you ended up at one point at, was it UC Berkeley?

   10. SPSpeaker11:10

       Yeah.

   11. TFTim Ferriss11:11

       Planning to be an engineer.

   12. SPSpeaker11:12

       Yep.

   13. TFTim Ferriss11:12

       What type of engineering?

   14. SPSpeaker11:13

       Um, I'd applied for civil engineering. I was g- yeah.

   15. TFTim Ferriss11:16

       Why civil?

   16. SPSpeaker11:17

       Uh, I mean, basically one of my uncles was a civil engineer. I was just like, that's cool. And I loved, I liked building things and the idea of, like, building bridges or, like, big, big projects like that. I mean, it's appealing, you know, the idea of, like, constructing something cool. Um-

   17. TFTim Ferriss11:30

       Do you, did you collect anything as a kid or do you-

   18. SPSpeaker11:32

       Yeah, I was way into Legos. [laughs]

   19. TFTim Ferriss11:34

       Legos. Okay.

   20. SPSpeaker11:34

       Which, which is good for building.

   21. TFTim Ferriss11:34

       So, no, this is like the theme, right? So the kinda large structures, large walls, uh, how long did you collect the Legos for? I mean, do you have any idea? I'm not looking for exact-

   22. SPSpeaker11:46

       Uh

   23. TFTim Ferriss11:46

       ... timelines here, but...

   24. SPSpeaker11:47

       Well, I don't know when I first started getting Legos, but probably when I was really small, and then up until being a teenager, basically, I had a ton of Legos. [laughs]

   25. TFTim Ferriss11:53

       Did you have any, any, like, uh, [sighs] I'm not, coup de grâce is not the right expression here. I'm looking for Like, your landmark piece, is there anything that you remembered? I, like, I had friends who built, like, the Death Star out of Legos, and that was, like, the-

   26. SPSpeaker12:08

       The coolest thing

   27. TFTim Ferriss12:08

       ... the pinnacle [laughs] of their Lego career.

   28. SPSpeaker12:10

       No, I mean, I think I had a few just epic forts and, like, really cool pirate ships and things. And, um, no, but I never constructed anything that was, like, the, the culmination of my Lego, Lego career. I don't know. [laughs]

   29. TFTim Ferriss12:24

       [laughs]

   30. SPSpeaker12:24

       But, but the thing is, I, I think I took almost as much pleasure in destroying the things afterward as c- you know, 'cause you'd create, like, this elaborate city, and then my sister and I would take, like, a golf ball or something and just, like, destroy it-
3. 14:59 – 20:43

   Dirtbag Life, the Van, and the Climbing Industry

   1. TFTim Ferriss14:59

      And, uh, you have a reputation for, or you're well known for living as, and this is a term I hadn't heard until I watched a documentary that E- Yvon Chouinard was in, a dirtbag.

   2. SPSpeaker15:14

      Mm.

   3. TFTim Ferriss15:14

      So, like, living as a dirtbag climber. Can you describe that? What, what does that mean, first of all, and what is your version of that?

   4. SPSpeaker15:22

      Um, well, so I mean, I guess that just means somebody who is, like, a lifestyle climber, like someone who just lives to climb, so it's, like, the full time on the road, you know, doing whatever it takes to be a climber, I guess. I mean, being a dirtbag isn't, isn't a negative thing in the climbing community.

   5. TFTim Ferriss15:37

      Right.

   6. SPSpeaker15:37

      It's just like, "Oh, that guy's committed to the, the cause."

   7. TFTim Ferriss15:39

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SPSpeaker15:39

      And I'm sure there's the same kinda term for, like, the surf community or whatever else.

   9. TFTim Ferriss15:43

      Mm.

   10. SPSpeaker15:43

       You know, people who just, like, live to go mountain biking or surfing or whatever, you know, taking odd jobs and just, like, doing their thing just to, to be able to do their sport as much as they can.

   11. TFTim Ferriss15:51

       And it seems... I, I remember years ago I chatted with, um, Steph Davis, uh, when I was working on The 4-Hour Body. It seems like a very, uh, semi-monastic lifestyle. I mean, you're, you're really dedicated. It makes me think of, like, the marathon monks in Japan. Uh, but instead of, you know, running every day, you're climbing, sort of this itinerant lifestyle. Uh, now, you live... Do you currently... Do you still live in a van?

   12. SPSpeaker16:15

       Uh, yeah. I mostly live in my car, but then I'm overseas a lot more now, and then when I'm traveling for work stuff, I get put up in hotels or whatever.

   13. TFTim Ferriss16:21

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SPSpeaker16:21

       But, um, but yeah, I mean, I'm still focused in the van.

   15. TFTim Ferriss16:24

       What kind of van?

   16. SPSpeaker16:25

       Well, I just sold my old van. So I lived in a van for nine years, and then I just sold it to one of my cousins 'cause I was just kinda over it. I felt like I sorta outgrew it. Um, and so now I have a, a Dodge Promaster-

   17. TFTim Ferriss16:36

       Mm-hmm

   18. SPSpeaker16:36

       ... which I can stand in, which is a big, big upgrade-

   19. TFTim Ferriss16:38

       How tall are you?

   20. SPSpeaker16:39

       ... from my old way of life. I'm, like, 5'11". But-

   21. TFTim Ferriss16:41

       What's... Uh, so how have you, how have you kitted out this van to be suited to your needs?

   22. SPSpeaker16:45

       Well, so I actually just left it with a friend of mine who built it out while I was on an expedition in Patagonia this winter.

   23. TFTim Ferriss16:50

       Okay.

   24. SPSpeaker16:50

       And so he just made it nice. I mean, you know, a super nice bed and, like, a kitchen and good cabinetry and, um, you know, a refrigerator. And, um, yeah, I mean, it's basically a really small apartment. It's super nice.

   25. TFTim Ferriss17:01

       And, uh, the... Coming back to the industry, so, uh, are there people who criticize the industry of climbing, the sponsor influx? And the reason I bring that up is not because I'm critical. It's because I've seen, for instance, in the UFC and MMA, when in the very early days it was, it was really unfeasible for people to be professional MMA athletes.

   26. SPSpeaker17:27

       Mm-hmm.

   27. TFTim Ferriss17:28

       And as soon as sponsors came in and you had that sustainability, the level of athleticism and training and competency just went completely through the roof.

   28. SPSpeaker17:39

       Mm-hmm.

   29. TFTim Ferriss17:40

       Is, uh, is there something similar in climbing? I mean, do you feel... How do you feel about the so-called climbing industry?

   30. SPSpeaker17:48

       I mean, I think it's, I think it's great. Um, I mean, there, uh, is obviously criticism. I mean, you can find stuff online from... You can always find traditionalists and stuff who are like, "This isn't the way it was when I grew up, so I don't think it should be this way." Or like, "Oh, I feel like it's corrupting the art of climbing," or whatever else, you know, the, the having corporate money coming into the climbing world is, is tainting the, the artistic experience. I mean, whatever. I mean, you know, you can find criticism for it. Um, I think it's great. I mean, obviously, since I'm making a living from it and I'm able to go climbing all the time, you know, I'm very content with the whole situation. But mostly, I just feel like it's sort of a, a natural outgrowth. I mean, climbing gyms are becoming much more popular because people enjoy climbing, you know? And so if people are into it and, and the industry's making money, then, then power to it.
4. 20:43 – 27:31

   Mental Prep, Minimalism, and the Borrowed Chalk Bag

   1. TFTim Ferriss20:43

      when, when you are getting ready to climb something that is going to be challenging, I'm not saying, uh, like a first ascent or something like that, but, uh, really anything that you're expecting to be reasonably challenging, what does your self-talk sound like? What is your ... Do you have any sort of, uh, prep, anything you ritual- ritualistically say to yourself before you get going?

   2. SPSpeaker21:05

      Um, no, I don't really, I don't self-talk like that. But, um, normally if I'm planning on doing something challenging, I spend the time sort of visualizing what the experience will feel like and what the individual section... So, I mean, with climbing, there's a, there's a component to it of just memorizing the actual moves. So I'll think through the sequences and make sure that I remember, like, which foot to move in which order and, like, how to do everything. And then, um, particularly if it's a free solo or something, if I'm climbing ropeless, then I'll think through what it'll feel like to be in certain positions, because some kinds of movements are, are insecure, and so they're just, like, kind of scarier than other types of moves. And so it's important to me to sort of think through how that'll all feel when I'm up there so that when I'm doing it I don't suddenly be like, "Oh my God, this is really scary." You know? Like, I know that it's supposed to be scary. I know that's gonna be the move. I know what it's gonna feel like, and I just do it.

   3. TFTim Ferriss21:53

      So you rehearse the fear in a sense-

   4. SPSpeaker21:54

      Yeah, re-

   5. TFTim Ferriss21:55

      ... or rehearse the sensation-

   6. SPSpeaker21:56

      Yeah

   7. TFTim Ferriss21:56

      ... of one type-

   8. SPSpeaker21:57

      Yeah, exactly

   9. TFTim Ferriss21:57

      ... of which could be fear.

   10. SPSpeaker21:58

       Yeah. And I think through, you know, how airy certain positions will feel, 'cause sometimes you can be all spread out with, like, the void below you, and you're just like, "Wow, this is, like, quite the, quite the air around me."

   11. TFTim Ferriss22:07

       [laughs]

   12. SPSpeaker22:07

       And so it's good to have, like, thought about that. Basically to think through all potential things beforehand so that when you're up there, there's no, like, unexpected thing that happens.

   13. TFTim Ferriss22:15

       You know, we were talking, uh, earlier about this, this, this odd looking fellow, the white bust over on my counter, who is, for those of you who don't have a visual, is, is Seneca the Younger-

   14. SPSpeaker22:26

       [laughs]

   15. TFTim Ferriss22:27

       ... uh, which was a gift. And of course, those of you who listen to this podcast a lot know that I'm somewhat obsessed, uh-

   16. SPSpeaker22:33

       [laughs]

   17. TFTim Ferriss22:34

       ... compelled to read a lot of Stoic philosophy and Marcus Aurelius and so on. Uh, how would you describe your ... [sighs] If you had to take a stab at it, I know this is a hard question, but your just, like, general, how does your philosophy or philosophies of, of life and living differ from most people?

   18. SPSpeaker22:54

       Uh, [sighs] I don't know. I mean, I've never really th- thought of any comprehensive life, life philosophy or anything. You know, I don't feel like I have a particular set of principles that I live by. Though, um, you know, I suppose I'm pretty minimalistic and, and, uh, you know, I'm leading a fairly simple life, and, I mean, I guess that's basically how, how I live. I don't know.

   19. TFTim Ferriss23:15

       What are the benefits of living simply to you? Aside from the ease of travel, but I would imagine at this point you could probably travel reasonably easily.

   20. SPSpeaker23:22

       Well, no, I mean, that's kind of it, is that, um, yeah, just the ease of living. You know, basically it just cuts away everything except for what I want to be. I mean, 'cause my, my goal is basically to climb as much as I can, and that's what I enjoy most in life is climbing. And so everything else, to some extent, is a distraction from that. And so, you know, I basically just cut away the, what I don't need.

   21. TFTim Ferriss23:42

       So I heard a story, and this was, like, a friend of a friend of a friend relaying something they had heard.

   22. SPSpeaker23:49

       [laughs] Okay.

   23. TFTim Ferriss23:49

       So we'll see, we'll see where this is.

   24. SPSpeaker23:50

       Yeah, it's like telephone.

   25. TFTim Ferriss23:51

       Yeah, yeah, exactly.

   26. SPSpeaker23:52

       So...

   27. TFTim Ferriss23:52

       So who knows?

   28. SPSpeaker23:53

       Yeah.

   29. TFTim Ferriss23:53

       But they, they told this story about you free climbing. And this, this might-

   30. SPSpeaker23:59

       Or free soloing probably.
5. 27:31 – 33:42

   Eating on the Wall and the Epic Space Dump

   1. TFTim Ferriss27:31

      What do you, we were talking just during the soundcheck about eating. Uh, and I'd like to talk about that for a second. Uh, what does your typical breakfast look like?

   2. SPSpeaker27:43

      Um, generally, well, so I've kinda gone through two main phases, I guess. I used to always do, like, an egg scramble for breakfast. Um, and now I pretty much always do some kind of muesli concoction with, like, fruit and some kind of alternative milk stuff and, like, flaxseed, hemp hearts, like random things, sort of like a wholesome muesli mix. But-

   3. TFTim Ferriss27:59

      And then I asked you about lunch, and what do you have to say about lunch?

   4. SPSpeaker28:04

      Yeah, so I, I rarely eat a lunch per se. I pretty much always just snack for the several hours in the middle of the day. Um, n- normally, like, a couple pieces of fruit, maybe some nut butter, um, you know, a, a bar or two or something, and then I eat, like, a big dinner. I normally do a pretty big breakfast and a pretty big dinner, and then just snack throughout the rest.

   5. TFTim Ferriss28:21

      Why, why no lunch?

   6. SPSpeaker28:22

      Well, the no lunch thing makes sense when you're up on a wall for the day, or if you're, like, out at the cliff or... It's just, like, a bunch of work to e- take a real meal.

   7. TFTim Ferriss28:31

      So I wasn't gonna get to this immediately, uh, this, this early. This is early for me in the-

   8. SPSpeaker28:36

      I'm always premature, so it's fine

   9. TFTim Ferriss28:38

      ... podcast world. What, what was that?

   10. SPSpeaker28:39

       I said I'm always premature. It's fine.

   11. TFTim Ferriss28:40

       Yeah. [laughs]

   12. SPSpeaker28:42

       Yeah.

   13. TFTim Ferriss28:42

       It's like my friend when he drives. We call him a premature accelerator.

   14. SPSpeaker28:45

       [laughs]

   15. TFTim Ferriss28:46

       But that's, that's, that's a whole separate story. Uh, so this is from a friend of mine who's an elite athlete, very high level female athlete. I'll, I'll ask her main question first. Actually, no, I'll ask the related question first. So the food, real hassle. So the q- question was, what happens if you have to take a shit on the side of a mountain? [laughs] Meaning-

   16. SPSpeaker29:05

       Oh

   17. TFTim Ferriss29:05

       ... like, on a wall.

   18. SPSpeaker29:06

       I've got so many good pooping stories.

   19. TFTim Ferriss29:08

       Okay. Let's-

   20. SPSpeaker29:08

       And we can do a whole podcast on poop stories.

   21. TFTim Ferriss29:10

       [laughs] Well, let's, let's give a preview. That could be the round two. But yeah, let's, I, I mean, I was wondering, as soon as she brought it up, I was like, "Holy shit, yeah."

   22. SPSpeaker29:18

       Should I go straight to my most epic dump story?

   23. TFTim Ferriss29:21

       Yes, please.

   24. SPSpeaker29:22

       Okay. So [laughs] like, uh-

   25. TFTim Ferriss29:23

       [laughs]

   26. SPSpeaker29:23

       ... a y- uh, two years ago, I guess, I was free soloing this route called Romantic Warrior in the Needles, which is actually a super-

   27. TFTim Ferriss29:28

       Romantic Warrior?

   28. SPSpeaker29:29

       Yeah.

   29. TFTim Ferriss29:30

       Okay.

   30. SPSpeaker29:30

       It's, like, it's actually one of the most striking granite walls, like, in the world. It's this totally beautiful route on this crazy spire. It's, it's an amazing, amazing route. It's something I've thought about for a long time, and it's actually quite difficult. And so I was going up there to free solo. It was, like, kind of a big thing for me, and I was way stoked. And typically, when you get to the base of a free solo like that, if, if you have to poop at all, like, you have to go, like, then [laughs] you know? When you're at the base. But I was just like, I don't know, it just didn't quite happen. And, uh, and so I started climbing. And that route, the first 400 feet or so are, like, pretty moderate terrain, and then it goes into, like, some pretty extreme terrain for the second 400 feet. And, uh- So basically right before I got into the real stuff, I was like, "Oh, now I really need to shit." [laughs] I was like, "Oh, man." You know, basically I was like, "Oh, it's about to get real up here, and like I, now I need to poop."
6. 33:42 – 41:44

   Alpinism, Mentors, and Training Advice

   1. TFTim Ferriss33:42

      So this, this is actually, I will be the first person to admit that I actually do not know what alpinism is.

   2. SPSpeaker33:49

      Okay.

   3. TFTim Ferriss33:49

      Uh, and but one of the questions that came up, this is from Kelly O'Shea, one of, uh, my listeners, is, "Ask Alex about his recent achievements in alpinism. Uh, what was it like, as someone who's so accomplished in one discipline, to be a beginner again in another type of climbing?" Can you explain what alpinism is, and then how you would answer that?

   4. SPSpeaker34:11

      So alpinism, I guess, is basically just climbing bigger mountains or big snowy or icy faces or, you know, granite walls that are also covered with ice. I don't know. I mean, alpinism is just climbing the things that you see in posters where you're like, "Whoa, that looks like a big scary mountain." You know, 'cause I've always been more of a rock climber, which is climbing like vertical dry granite walls. Um, alpinism is like when you do that in more remote places and like you hike across a glacier, you get to the bottom of some huge icy face, and then you do all kinds of shenanigans to get to the top. But...

   5. TFTim Ferriss34:42

      So what, uh, what mistakes did you make, if anyone, first starting that type of climbing?

   6. SPSpeaker34:49

      Uh, well, so basically, I mean, I haven't done a lot of alpinism and I still, I can't ice climb at all. I've like never led a pitch of ice. But I've actually done a handful of things that are considered like noteworthy alpine ascents now. But it [laughs] has more to do with choosing like the right partners. 'Cause I go with somebody who's like way more experienced than me or just someone who has much more of a plan. And then it's sort of about the division of labor, you know? Like someone who's good at one thing, and then I'm, I'm obviously good at the rock climbing component of it. So even though I'm a total beginner with the ice climbing and with all the logistics and the camping and like dealing with living on a glacier, all that kind of stuff is totally new to me, but at least I know how to do the climbing pretty well. So then it, you know, you just find the teammate who, who complements the skill set well, and then you can go out and climb all kinds of crazy things.

   7. TFTim Ferriss35:32

      So now, I probably mentioned this in the intro, but just in case I haven't, for people listening, I'm sitting in my living room, we are sitting in my living room, and we have a whole like phalanx of people surrounding us because we're filming this. Now, one of the, one of the people here has actually been on the podcast before, so Jimmy Chin. How does your climbing differ most from his?

   8. SPSpeaker35:54

      Well, Jimmy Chin is predominantly a photographer, so his climbing, it's not really climbing.

   9. TFTim Ferriss35:59

      [laughs]

   10. SPSpeaker35:59

       It's mostly just going up behind people to take pictures.

   11. TFTim Ferriss36:01

       [laughs]

   12. SPSpeaker36:02

       But I'm talking to you, Jimmy. [laughs]

   13. TFTim Ferriss36:05

       [laughs]

   14. SPSpeaker36:05

       No. I mean, but so Ji- Jimmy has been, Jimmy has been classically more of a big wall climber. Um, I mean, Jimmy's never been like the best free climb- Like, you know, I mean, he's not doing one-arm pull-ups on small edges and he's not like climbing the hardest sport routes, but he's always been able to like get to the top of big walls, and then been able to do that in the mountains, you know, with ice and snow and bad conditions. And so he sort of- The climbing that he's been good at has been, like, farther along the spectrum of, you know, big and badass than the type of climbing... You know, 'cause I grew up in a climbing gym, um, and then sort of gradually extended to, like, big rock walls, you know, and, and he sort of started on big rock walls and then extended into the bigger mountains.

   15. TFTim Ferriss36:44

       Who were... When you were getting started, just thinking back to, say, the first 10 years of climbing, how old are you now?

   16. SPSpeaker36:50

       I'm 30.

   17. TFTim Ferriss36:51

       30.

   18. SPSpeaker36:52

       Getting old.

   19. TFTim Ferriss36:53

       I, I thought I heard your joints creaking.

   20. SPSpeaker36:54

       Yeah, I know.

   21. TFTim Ferriss36:55

       Uh-

   22. SPSpeaker36:55

       I feel like it right now.

   23. TFTim Ferriss36:56

       [laughs] Who were some of your early mentors in climbing?

   24. SPSpeaker37:01

       Um, I didn't have a lot of mentors when I... I mean, I kinda just grew up in the gym just climbing a lot, so I didn't really have mentors. I mean, I definitely had people that I looked up to and people in the climbing community, but that's just sort of the typical hero worship-y style. You know, like, Peter Croft was a really prominent soloist from this generation before me, and I was like, "Oh, Peter's the man." And, um, you know, Chris Sharma obviously was, was, like, setting all kinds of world record-type things when I was a kid, and I was just like, "Oh, he's so amazing." And Tommy Caldwell was also a big hero, um, which has been cool because now I get to climb with Tommy as an adult, and I'm just like, "Oh, that's pretty cool." I'm still always excited to climb with Tommy, but...

   25. TFTim Ferriss37:36

       What, uh... If, if you were... So I'm gonna take like 20 different questions and t- hopefully wrap it into one question, and we can, we can take some time on this. But if you were taking a, let's just say, an athletic rope beginner, so someone who's never done any climbing-

   26. SPSpeaker37:52

       Mm-hmm

   27. TFTim Ferriss37:53

       ... but has a decent athletic background, right? 20, 25 years old, and they want to get really good at, say, bouldering. Uh, and you were going to just kinda lay out, give them advice or train them for like eight weeks. What would you, what would you have them do? What would, what would the, what would that look like?

   28. SPSpeaker38:12

       I, I don't know. I'd have to think about it a lot because, I mean, particularly with bouldering, it's sort of, it's interesting. So adults are more prone to injury than, than kids to some extent, and especially with, with something like bouldering, where, um, it's really heavy on finger... Like, basically, it's really easy to injure your fingers and hands because all the connective tissue and, like, tendons and ligaments take a very, very long time to strengthen. So I mean, there's no real shortcut to, to avoiding tendon injury.

   29. TFTim Ferriss38:37

       Mm-hmm.

   30. SPSpeaker38:38

       Whereas an adult, like a 25-year-old male, would gain muscle mass super fast, so really quickly they could exceed the capacity of their tendons and then basically just rip their tendons out of their arms.
7. 41:44 – 49:48

   Struggles, Depression, and Money Beyond Climbing

   1. TFTim Ferriss41:44

      ... uh, what do you worry about when you go to sleep at night, if anything? Like, when you worry before you go to bed, what kind of stuff do you worry about?

   2. SPSpeaker41:52

      Oh, I was like, that's a quick 180. [laughs]

   3. TFTim Ferriss41:55

      Yeah.

   4. SPSpeaker41:55

      But, uh-

   5. TFTim Ferriss41:55

      This is gonna be full of all sorts-

   6. SPSpeaker41:56

      Yeah

   7. TFTim Ferriss41:56

      ... of weird night editing returns.

   8. SPSpeaker41:58

      That's fine. Yeah, keep listeners on their toes, you know?

   9. TFTim Ferriss41:59

      [laughs]

   10. SPSpeaker42:00

       So that people scrubbing through the podcast get confused and wonder where-

   11. TFTim Ferriss42:03

       Yeah, yeah. I don't want any storyline that they try to skip ahead-

   12. SPSpeaker42:05

       Yeah, exactly

   13. TFTim Ferriss42:05

       ... with.

   14. SPSpeaker42:06

       Um, uh, no, I don't really worry that much when I, when I sleep. I mean, the stuff that I get stressed about is all, like, real-life stuff with, uh, you know, dealing with email and responding to calls and, like, you know, hustling and, I don't know, like doing my taxes, you know, like all the stuff that I'm just, like, not good at.

   15. TFTim Ferriss42:20

       [sighs] So l- so let, let me ask, this is, like, partially me turning this into a therapy session for myself. But-

   16. SPSpeaker42:27

       Oh, should I just lay down? Oh.

   17. TFTim Ferriss42:28

       [laughs]

   18. SPSpeaker42:29

       No, I was like gonna lay on the sofa here. I'm getting all psyched.

   19. TFTim Ferriss42:31

       Uh, that's, that's usually my second favorite podcast approach.

   20. SPSpeaker42:34

       There you go.

   21. TFTim Ferriss42:35

       Just relax.

   22. SPSpeaker42:36

       [laughs]

   23. TFTim Ferriss42:36

       But the, uh, the [laughs] , the, the question I'd like to ask is why do this ... [sighs] When is enough enough to fuel the climbing? Meaning, what do you hope to do with the additional money you make above and beyond what you need to sustain climbing, often? Because it's not ... At, at a certain point, you surpass that pretty easily.

   24. SPSpeaker43:01

       Yeah.

   25. TFTim Ferriss43:01

       But you're certainly keeping busy. Uh, you're, you're f- you have a number of sponsors. Uh, you're tremendously good at what you do. So h- what do you wanna do with that?

   26. SPSpeaker43:11

       No, I mean, that is interesting because, uh, and I've, you know, thought about this a lot over the years because for, say, the first five or seven years that I'm, was living in the van, my overhead's probably 10 to 15K a year.

   27. TFTim Ferriss43:22

       Yeah.

   28. SPSpeaker43:22

       And I now obviously make a lot more than that through sponsorship, and just doing, like, one commercial or something, you know, I can make many times what I need to, to live in the road for a long time. And so, you know, part of that, I mean, I'm, I'm obviously saving for retirement, things like that, trying to be responsible with money. But, um, and then I've also started a foundation where I've been giving probably a third of my income now to, to, uh, environmental nonprofit things. Um, but yeah, basically, I mean, honestly, the foundation was kind of my, my response to that kinda stuff 'cause I was like, "I just don't need to make more." But the thing is, it is actually kinda fun to make more. You know, it's, like, fun to do the random opportunities, like to do a commercial project or to, like, give some talk to some interesting company or, you know, whatever. I mean, it's kinda fun to be able to hustle up money like that.

   29. TFTim Ferriss44:03

       Mm-hmm.

   30. SPSpeaker44:04

       But then it's, like, equally fun to be able to, you know, use that money for something positive, which is, you know, through the foundation, basically. Um-
8. 49:48 – 55:00

   Training, Joint Care, and Marc-André Leclerc

   1. TFTim Ferriss49:48

      When, uh, when you are about to do a big climb or just a very strenuous, um, climbing workout, I'm not even sure if you do that anymore, maybe we could men- talk about it, but how do you warm up, if you do?

   2. SPSpeaker50:01

      Um, I always warm up pretty, pretty gently when I can. Just so, just, um... I mean, it depends on where I am. If I'm in a climbing gym, um, then I just warm up on a handful of easy routes, and then, and then start the harder ones later. Uh, I mean, for the last month and a half I've been stretching, like, every morning and every night because of the back thing and because of how tight my hips and, and everything feel right now.

   3. TFTim Ferriss50:21

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SPSpeaker50:22

      Um, so doing some stretching and some, like, light exercise to sort of warm up and then, yeah.

   5. TFTim Ferriss50:27

      When you can't climb, uh, let's just say you're, you're on the road-

   6. SPSpeaker50:32

      Mm-hmm

   7. TFTim Ferriss50:32

      ... what type of exercise do you do?

   8. SPSpeaker50:35

      I mean, I, I try to still climb when I'm on the road. Um, I mean, there are just so many gyms in different places that you can always do that, but, um, if there's absolutely nothing, then maybe I'll run or I'll go hiking or... It kinda depends on what opportunities there are. I mean, I'd rather go mountain biking than, than other things, or I'd rather go skiing if, if that's available.

   9. TFTim Ferriss50:51

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SPSpeaker50:51

       Um, but, I mean, as long as I'm getting some kinda exercise. I mean, even, like, stand-up paddle boarding or something, I'm like, "Well, at least I did something today," you know?

   11. TFTim Ferriss50:57

       A, a lot of recreational climbers deal with, as we've touched on earlier, sort of, uh, hand issues, wrist issues, elbow issues.

   12. SPSpeaker51:05

       Mm-hmm.

   13. TFTim Ferriss51:06

       Uh, I'm... I mean, you saw me when, when, when you guys arrived today, I had myself wrapped up in this stuff called Voodoo Floss 'cause I, uh, my elbows are killing me. Uh, and how have you seen climbers, uh, keep their elbows and joints in good health? Is there, are there any particular approaches that-

   14. SPSpeaker51:24

       Um-

   15. TFTim Ferriss51:25

       ... that you think have, have merit?

   16. SPSpeaker51:26

       No, I don't, I don't think there's, like, an easy answer to that kind of stuff. I mean, I had some elbow issues for a while. Um, now it's like eight or nine years ago or something, but I had sort of, like, chronic elbow pain on and off for almost a year. But then eventually it just sort of resolved and... I mean, I think the best way with that kind of stuff is sort of prevention. You know, like may- maintain antagonist muscles and just sort of like stay well-balanced and everything, and just... And if you start to feel achiness or pain coming on, then to, you know, take the appropriate rest or, or maybe change your training to some extent or basically just not to let it become a big problem, 'cause I feel like all those overuse injuries, like, once they're a problem, then it's, like, really hard to deal with.

   17. TFTim Ferriss52:01

       So the antagonistic muscles, meaning if you're doing a lot of, say, like, flexor work, kind of gripping that you're gonna use, like finger extension and wrist extension and so on.

   18. SPSpeaker52:10

       Yeah. Though I've actually never done the whole extension stuff with, with hands. I don't have... But to me, um, antagonist muscles are more like doing pushups or random, you know, or tricep pulls or things to balance out your arms a bit.

   19. TFTim Ferriss52:22

       Got it.

   20. SPSpeaker52:22

       Since you do so much pulling-

   21. TFTim Ferriss52:23

       Mm

   22. SPSpeaker52:23

       ... like, to be able to do some kind of pushing sometimes.

   23. TFTim Ferriss52:25

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SPSpeaker52:26

       But...

   25. TFTim Ferriss52:26

       Uh, w- what, in your mind, separates a great climber from a good climber? And you can answer that however you want.

   26. SPSpeaker52:34

       Uh, I don't know. I mean, yeah, I don't know.

   27. TFTim Ferriss52:39

       Well, let's... Well, okay, I'll ask it, I'll ask it differently. Who impresses you right now as a climber?

   28. SPSpeaker52:44

       Um-

   29. TFTim Ferriss52:44

       Just one of, I'm sure, many, but...

   30. SPSpeaker52:47

       Uh, this, this kid Marc-André Leclerc.
9. 55:00 – 1:02:21

   Free Soloing's Influence and Fear on Half Dome

   1. TFTim Ferriss55:00

      On the- On the, uh, on the danger side, um, this is a question from Paul Jones. So being the first sponsored superstar of free soloing, do you ever have concerns about the influence that you could have on young climbers who-

   2. SPSpeaker55:15

      Um

   3. TFTim Ferriss55:16

      ... may not put in the mileage and the training to get to a point where they can do it as safely?

   4. SPSpeaker55:23

      Yeah. Well, so there are two things. One, I'm definitely not the first superstar or whatever, um, 'cause there are a bunch of European climbers who are well-known for soloing who've, you know, come before me. And even in the US, somebody like John Bachar was, like, super well-known in the 1970s, and he was on all kinds of TV programs. It might not have been sponsorship in the same way that we have today, 'cause the industry wasn't the same.

   5. TFTim Ferriss55:43

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SPSpeaker55:43

      But he was definitely on, you know, like, the evening news and all kinds of crazy things free soloing. So, um, I mean, I'm definitely not the first by any means.

   7. TFTim Ferriss55:50

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SPSpeaker55:51

      Um, and, and it's interesting because, you know, I was obviously a kid who was influenced by that kind of stuff, but then I've gone through, you know, years and years of, of practice or whatever. Um, I kinda feel like soloing is a bit, um, I don't know, almost like self-regulating in a way because the thing is, is that anybody can watch a video and be like, "I wanna do that." But then as soon as they climb 15 or 20 feet off the ground, they start to have a very frank discussion with themselves like, "Do I really wanna do this?" [laughs] You know? Like, it suddenly feels very scary. 'Cause, I mean, people have, like, an overwhelming fear response to the prospect of falling to their death, you know? And so-

   9. TFTim Ferriss56:24

      I have an overwhelming fear response-

   10. SPSpeaker56:25

       Yeah

   11. TFTim Ferriss56:25

       ... just watching videos of it.

   12. SPSpeaker56:26

       Well, yeah, exactly. I mean, that's kind of the thing is that hardly anybody sees that film and is like, "Oh, I'm gonna go do that." And then even, even if they do, once they start trying to do it, I mean, it is actually quite difficult to climb these walls, so it's not as if some kid can just, like, wander up and do that. And then, and even if they are strong enough or, like, you know, well-versed enough in climbing to climb a little bit, then they're also like, "Wow, this is really, really scary. I didn't expect it to be this scary," and then they just climb back down.

   13. TFTim Ferriss56:48

       Mm.

   14. SPSpeaker56:49

       Um, so I mean, you know, you know, I've thought a little bit about influencing kids and, like, you know, wondering if that's a bad thing. But in general, like, you just don't really see copycat things. Like, you see it a lot more in, in gravity-assisted sports or, like, action sports, so like kayaking or skiing or something where, like, anybody can just line up at the top of a cliff and be like, "I'm gonna huck this cliff, and I'm gonna stick it, and it's gonna be sick," you know? And then once they sort of commit and start going, it's like they're going off the cliff [laughs] one way or another.

   15. TFTim Ferriss57:14

       Right. They can, they can start the music, but they can't turn it off.

   16. SPSpeaker57:16

       Yeah, exactly. But with climbing it's like each move that you make upward is, like, a decision that you're gonna continue going upward. You have to decide over and over, like, "I wanna keep going, I wanna keep going, I wanna keep..." And at a certain point you're like, "I don't really wanna keep going." [laughs] Like, "I think I wanna go down." And then you're just like, "Mommy."

   17. TFTim Ferriss57:30

       [laughs]

   18. SPSpeaker57:31

       You know, and then, like, yeah, I mean...

   19. TFTim Ferriss57:33

       Have you ever hit that point when it was, let's just say over-

   20. SPSpeaker57:38

       When I've started screaming for Mommy? [laughs]

   21. TFTim Ferriss57:39

       Aren't you... Ex- well, yeah.

   22. SPSpeaker57:41

       Yeah. [laughs]

   23. TFTim Ferriss57:41

       Screaming for Mommy or, like, hundreds of feet up and you're like, "I don't wanna keep doing this."

   24. SPSpeaker57:45

       Yeah, no, I've definitely had a bunch of times soloing where I'm like, "I'm not into this. I'm going down."

   25. TFTim Ferriss57:50

       And what happens then? Because I've, I've never seen footage of you climbing down. And it's tr-

   26. SPSpeaker57:56

       Well, the thing is-

   27. TFTim Ferriss57:57

       Yeah

   28. SPSpeaker57:57

       ... th- but that's kind of a practical thing is that if you have people there filming with you, it's like obviously you're doing something that you've rehearsed or, or you know a lot about or it's like a, you know, it's a classic enough route that it's worthy to film on. Like, you have all those epic misadventures on things that, like, aren't that well-known that, you know, people aren't climbing all the time. But no, so I've had tons of experiences where, um, especially when I was younger, I didn't really know how to read topos. Like, well, the little maps that show you, like, where a climbing route goes. So I'd look at it and be like, "Okay, I think I'm climbing that big corner," and then I'd go up there and be like, "This isn't even the right route. Like, what the heck am I doing?" And then I'd start, like, questing way to the left or right being like, "Well, maybe if I traverse 200 feet that way, then I'll get to the real route." And then you're like, "Oh, God, what am I doing?" And then it all starts to go south, you know?

   29. TFTim Ferriss58:37

       Uh, and, and then you would climb down in an instance like-

   30. SPSpeaker58:40

       Well, or I would, like, quest over to some other route and escape off of that or-
10. 1:02:21 – 1:08:47

    Leaving Berkeley, Mortality, and Books

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:02:21

       All right, we're back, back in action. So during the little break we were just talking about some, some past lives, and, uh, [laughs] I was mentioning that I wanted to be a comic book penciler, was an illustrator for a period of time paying expenses in college, and had this other weird side gig of bouncing, which was terrible 'cause I was always the smallest guy, uh, as a bouncer. But what are the, what are the best and worst jobs that you've, that you had prior to climbing?

    2. SPSpeaker1:02:47

       I haven't really had that many jobs. I mean, I worked at the climbing gym as a kid, um, just, you know, cleaning the bathrooms and doing summer camp stuff with kids. And then I worked doing night security at Berkeley for, for a semester that I was there. I mean, I was only at Berkeley for a year, and so for my second semester there I was doing night security. I was basically just like walking around campus at night getting paid to like look at buildings.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:03:06

       [laughs]

    4. SPSpeaker1:03:07

       But...

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:03:09

       Uh, when you were at Berkeley, how did you decide to leave? And what was that calculus like? I mean, how long did it take you? Is that-

    6. SPSpeaker1:03:17

       Um, yeah, I mean, I didn't, I didn't decide to just drop out of Berkeley. It was more that I wasn't really happy there, and then, um, my first year at Berkeley I happened to get second at, at, uh, the national, at nationals, and so I got invited to the Youth World Cup, um, which was during what would've been my second fall semester. And so I decided to take the semester off and then go do, you know, Youth Worlds and then travel a bit and climb and do whatever. Um, and also my father happened to die the summer after freshman year, and he was part of the pressure for like going to school. And not really pressure, but he just sort of like expected the kids to go to college type thing. And then when he died it also left life insurance money for my sister and I to finish school, and so, you know, that sort of allowed me to not, to not [laughs] go back to school. And so, uh, yeah. And so just kind of a combination of events just led me to take the semester off, and then I just like, you know, I've just taken the next 10 or, no, like 20 semesters off since then.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:04:11

       Were you, uh, close to your dad?

    8. SPSpeaker1:04:15

       Um, I w- I was fairly close to my dad. I mean, or we weren't super close and like talking about things and like having, having deep chats, but he definitely invested a ton of time in me. You know, he took me to the climbing gym all the time. He would drive me all over the state to competitions. You know, he would take me camping, take me outside. Like, you know, we, we, we would do, be doing family camping trips in the mountains and stuff. Um, so I mean, he definitely put a ton of energy into me.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:04:40

       Do you, and I apologize, I don't know your status, do you want to get married, have kids?

    10. SPSpeaker1:04:45

        Um, yeah, I think I'd like to have a family someday.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:04:48

        So that, that brings up something that I, I've wanted to talk about and, uh, hesitated to ask in part because I'm sure you've been asked a million times, but as it relates to mortality, let's just say that somebody came to you, so this is kind of two in one. Uh, they said, "I have $10 million and I'm going to dedicate it to you, but with the following condition. You have to predict how you're gonna die accurately. And in that case, it goes to the cause of your choosing." So what would you predict, and what cause would it go to?

    12. SPSpeaker1:05:24

        Um, that's interesting. And if I predict wrong it just like doesn't go anywhere?

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:05:28

        It dis- disappears.

    14. SPSpeaker1:05:29

        Yeah. Poof. Um, okay. Um, I don't know. I mean, I think I would predict, I don't know. [laughs] I'm sort of 50/50 between natural causes, just like dying of old age at some point, or like climbing accident in the grander scheme of like not necessarily, um, you know, like falling to my death, which is what people think with the free soloing, but just the random stuff like, you know, rappelling in the mountains or like being swept by an avalanche or like being hit by a random rock. Because there is a lot of just like random chan- or not a lot, but there is random cha- chance involved with climbing, and just the fact that I am out climbing all the time, like it wouldn't be shocking if some random thing just happened to me like that. Um, though, I mean, that's kind of the, the, you know, price, price to play. You know?

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:06:10

        Yeah.

    16. SPSpeaker1:06:10

        Like, if you're gonna be in those places, like there is just a random, random risk associated with it. Um, so yeah, I mean, I think... And then the cause I would devote it to, um, I don't know. Some probably envi- I mean, basically the stuff that I'm supporting through my foundation, which is, uh, you know, any kind of environmental project that like improves standard of living, which has mostly been, uh, like off-grid solar projects or like energy access and stuff for rural communities.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:06:32

        Off-grid solar and energy access for, for whom, or where are those?

    18. SPSpeaker1:06:35

        For like rural communities. I mean, I've been supporting a group that does that kind of work in Africa, which, you know, makes sense 'cause folks have no access to energy. And we've also been supporting grid alternatives here in the States which does, uh, like home PV systems for like low income families. Um, basically it's just a way to like help, you know, folks that need some help, and it helps the environment obviously.

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:06:54

        And just when we took a break, you were talking about, we were talking, talking about books and, uh, the fact that you read mostly nonfiction. Uh, what nonfiction books have had a, had an impact on you or that, or do you particularly like?

    20. SPSpeaker1:07:11

        Um, I mean, in the last several years, I mean, some of the most noteworthy books I've read, I guess, um, like A People's History of the US, the Howard Zinn book, totally changed the way I look at politics. Um, and then in the same way, uh, I read a book recently called Sacred Economics that, like, totally changed the way I looked at economics.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:07:28

        Sacred Economics?

    22. SPSpeaker1:07:29

        Yeah, it was actually totally interesting. I forget who the author was now, though. I didn't know him.

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:07:34

        I will... We will look it up and-

    24. SPSpeaker1:07:35

        You should, you should-

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:07:35

        ... put it in the show notes.

    26. SPSpeaker1:07:36

        Sacred Economics is, like, kinda awesome. It, like, yeah, changed my world a bit. But-

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:07:41

        What, uh, what's, what are the, what's the kinda basic thesis of Sacred Economics, or is it-

    28. SPSpeaker1:07:46

        Um, I don't know what the author-

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:07:47

        Too, too hard to summarize

    30. SPSpeaker1:07:48

        ... would say the thesis.
11. 1:08:47 – 1:19:12

    Assessing Risk, Fear, and Misconceptions

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:08:47

       how do you assess risk, whether that's with, uh, and you can, you can focus on one of these, but whether that's on a particular climb, on, like, a business venture, a decision to do A versus B, how do you, how do you think about risk?

    2. SPSpeaker1:09:05

       Um, y- I don't know. That's an interesting question 'cause obviously I spend a ton of time thinking about risk, but I just don't have, like, a clear cut, you know, like I don't have clear metrics for, like, oh, you know, this is... And, uh, because with the climbing, so much of it comes down to a feeling of, like, I feel a lot of fear when I think about that. Obviously, it's not for me. Um, yeah, I don't, I don't know exactly, and I've never really had to evaluate business ventures and things.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:09:29

       So when, uh, so let's touch on something you just said, which is if you're very afraid of something, then that's something you shouldn't do. So d- do you then climb, say, hard routes in an absence of fear, or is it present and then you overcome it?

    4. SPSpeaker1:09:46

       That's a good question. Um, I generally climb hard routes in the absence of fear. I generally don't go up on them unless I feel comfortable and I don't have that fear, I guess. Though, yeah, though, I mean, it's important to sort of differentiate fear and risk and, like, all the terms, I guess.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:10:03

       Definitely.

    6. SPSpeaker1:10:03

       Because, um, you know, I mean, if there is a high level of risk, I mean, you should be feeling fear. I mean, fear is sort of that warning that, you know, like, that there is real danger, and so, like, if there is danger present, like, I mean, you should be feeling fear. And so, you know, and there are times when maybe you should just suppress that fear and, and go for it anyway. May- maybe not. I don't know. But, so with the free soloing, typically if I'm feeling a lot of fear, then, um, I just, you know, wait and prepare more or, I don't know, some- do whatever it takes to mitigate that to, like, to feel comfortable and then, and then do the climb when I feel comfortable.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:10:36

       And do you have a, my s- my, my suspicion says no, but do you have a, a checklist, like, "I have to do this with gear X number of times and then do this Y number of times before I'm willing to free solo this," or is it just-

    8. SPSpeaker1:10:51

       I, I don't have a checklist, but I definitely have a degree of comfort that I need to feel on the route before I'm willing to solo it.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:10:59

       What does that feel like?

    10. SPSpeaker1:11:00

        I think-

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:11:01

        What does it-

    12. SPSpeaker1:11:01

        Well, it just feels like a certain... I, I guess I need to have a certain amount of reserve, I guess. You know, I, I need to feel like I can climb the route in a variety of conditions, um, and, and have some extra in the tank just in case, you know?

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:11:13

        Mm-hmm.

    14. SPSpeaker1:11:13

        Like, if I can climb the route only by the narrowest of, like, razor-thin margins, like, I mean, that's probably not good enough for free soloing.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:11:19

        And, uh, the definitions point is important. So for instance, I'm involved with a lot of speculative startups, or startups-

    16. SPSpeaker1:11:29

        Mm-hmm

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:11:29

        ... uh, whether they're speculative or-

    18. SPSpeaker1:11:30

        They're all speculative. [laughs]

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:11:31

        Yeah. They, I mean, m- most would be considered very highly speculative, and people say, "Wow, that's a really high-risk investment. You have a very high risk tolerance," right? Doing things in entrepreneurship and so on, and I've never felt that way. I actually feel like I'm focused on risk mitigation at all times. [laughs]

    20. SPSpeaker1:11:48

        Mm-hmm.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:11:49

        And, uh, so for me, I thought about it at one point 'cause they're like, "Oh, you have a really high risk tolerance," risk, risk, risk, and I was like, well, wait a second. Like, we should try to figure out the definition of this term that we're using before we have an, a discussion about it.

    22. SPSpeaker1:11:59

        Well, I mean, and isn't the thing with startups is that you're sort of willing to lose money on a certain number as long as, like-

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:12:04

        Exactly, so-

    24. SPSpeaker1:12:04

        ... some of them come out.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:12:05

        Right. No, exactly. So I-

    26. SPSpeaker1:12:06

        I mean, so you're sort of just doing the math on the overall picture. It's like, doesn't matter if some of them fail.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:12:10

        That's exactly right, and what, what's important, at least in that game, right, is, or that sport, I mean, you can look at it that way, is-

    28. SPSpeaker1:12:17

        [laughs]

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:12:17

        ... following your own rules. Like, if you set rules-

    30. SPSpeaker1:12:20

        Yeah
12. 1:19:12 – 1:29:52

    Beliefs, Biographies, Food, and Daily Rhythms

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:19:12

       When you think of the word successful, who's the first person who comes to mind for you?

    2. SPSpeaker1:19:17

       When I hear successful?

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:19:18

       Yeah, just the word successful. Who comes to-

    4. SPSpeaker1:19:19

       I mean, when you just said it, I thought Elon Musk. [laughs] But then like I have no idea, you know?

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:19:23

       [laughs]

    6. SPSpeaker1:19:23

       Like 'cause I don't know, but I don't know that much about business, but I'm just like, "That's rad."

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:19:26

       [laughs]

    8. SPSpeaker1:19:28

       But...

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:19:28

       Is there, uh, is there anyone that you would want to model your life after in any way?

    10. SPSpeaker1:19:37

        Um, probably not, but... Though I do like reading, you know, a biography or something, and then sort of, um, like I have some notes on my phone of, like, lists from random things I've read, you know, where you sort of choose little lessons out of, like, a book about somebody, and you're like-

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:19:50

        Mm-hmm

    12. SPSpeaker1:19:50

        ... oh, like, that person did these things well, and those are all things that I could apply to my life. But, you know, I wouldn't wanna model my whole life on somebody. It's more, like, you know, cherry picking-

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:19:59

        Cherry picking

    14. SPSpeaker1:19:59

        ... the good lessons here and there.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:20:01

        Uh, w- which biographies have produced a lot of notes for you?

    16. SPSpeaker1:20:06

        I, I've written notes-

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:20:07

        Or just the-

    18. SPSpeaker1:20:07

        ... a few times. But, so I, I read, um, the biography of, uh, uh, Brad Washburn, who was, like, a big id- if you know him, he was like an-

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:20:14

        I don't

    20. SPSpeaker1:20:14

        ... Alaska explorer, photographer. He also ran the, like, a natural history museum in, in, uh, Boston, I think. Um, but so he just had, like, a wide and varied career, and he was, like, a National Geographic explorer type. You know, he just did a lot with his life. And so after I finished reading the book, I was like, "Whoa, this guy, like, got shit done," you know? And I don't know, you know, I respect that, and so I just, like, kinda thought about it.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:20:38

        What is something that you believe that other people think is crazy?

    22. SPSpeaker1:20:43

        That I believe that other people think is crazy? Well, I don't know. I mean, I think that my evaluation of risk and all the things we were just talking about, a lot of people think is totally crazy.

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:20:51

        Mm-hmm.

    24. SPSpeaker1:20:52

        Um, but that's bec- I mean, I think it's because they don't have a full set of facts on it, you know? That they don't quite appreciate it in the same way that I do.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:20:59

        Mm-hmm.

    26. SPSpeaker1:21:00

        But, but I don't know if I have any other, like, totally outlandish beliefs like that.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:21:05

        Mm-hmm.

    28. SPSpeaker1:21:06

        I don't know.

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:21:07

        Do you, uh... I'm sure you've had this question before, but would you consider yourself a religious person? Do you have a particular belief system?

    30. SPSpeaker1:21:17

        No, I'm, like, strongly atheist and just, like, not into religion at all.
13. 1:29:52 – 1:37:59

    Fear as a Skill, Plateaus, and Training Volume

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:29:52

       are there ways that you've seen lessons learned or skills developed in climbing translate to other parts of your life? And if so, does any, is there any particular examples come to mind?

    2. SPSpeaker1:30:04

       Um, I don't know exact- I mean, so I've gained a lot from being a professional climber, like having to go and give talks and like do the whole work side of climbing. I mean, that's really like helped me grow as a person and feel comfortable doing public speaking and all that kind of stuff. Though I think from the actual climbing itself, maybe the most useful thing I've gotten has been sort of being able to differentiate, you know, risk and consequence and fear and like all these different things, and sort of being able to separate my feelings from what's actually happening. You know, like, oh, I feel fear, but is that fear justified because I'm actually in danger? Or is that like totally irrational fear that I should just squish and like move forward with something? And I don't, I don't know. I mean, I feel like climbing has sort of h- helped me understand like the different things that are going on there. You know, whereas I, I feel like a lot of people are just like, "Oh, I'm afraid," and then they're just like, "Oh, God, I'm afraid." You know? But sometimes, like, I mean, fear shouldn't necessarily control you any more than anything else. You know, it's like-

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:30:55

       Desire or fill in the blank-

    4. SPSpeaker1:30:56

       Well, yeah

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:30:57

       ... powerful emotion

    6. SPSpeaker1:30:57

       ... I mean, like hunger. You know, when you're really hungry, you're not like, "Oh, God, I'm hungry, I'm hungry, I'm hungry." You know, you're just like, "Oh, I'll eat lunch in two hours." You know? And I feel like fear, to some extent, should be the same way, where you can just register like, "Oh, I'm feeling fear right now." But sometimes that doesn't matter. I mean, sometimes it does, and you need to be like, "Oh, you know, I'm about to die. Like, I should watch out for that." But, but a lot of times, I mean, you should be able to just set that fear aside and just do exactly what you're supposed to be doing.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:31:21

       Yeah, so I mean, in a way, I mean, you're a connoisseur of fear, right? I mean, you can, you can distinguish sort of the va-

    8. SPSpeaker1:31:26

       Yeah, all the different flavors

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:31:26

       ... the varietals of fear. [laughs]

    10. SPSpeaker1:31:28

        Yeah. Yeah, totally.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:31:28

        Like the fears of the-

    12. SPSpeaker1:31:29

        Yeah, I mean, yeah, when you experience enough fear in your life, you're like, "Oh, now I can sort of differentiate between all the different types." Yeah.

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:31:35

        Uh, do you drink- Coffee or caffeine?

    14. SPSpeaker1:31:40

        No. Though I don't have, I just don't like coffee. Um, and I don't really like tea and, but I don't have any problem with caffeine. I don't really even notice caffeine, I don't think, that much.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:31:48

        Hmm.

    16. SPSpeaker1:31:48

        'Cause you get it in, like, ShotBloks and gels and Goos and whatever-

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:31:51

        Right

    18. SPSpeaker1:31:51

        ... all the little energy products. Like, some of them have caffeine and some don't, and I, I don't feel like I notice an effect either way.

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:31:57

        Well, the reason I asked is that I find personally, I remember I did a three-day meditation retreat, my first meditation retreat, and they disallowed caffeine. They said, "No caffeine and no alarm clocks. You wake up when you wake up." And when I came-

    20. SPSpeaker1:32:10

        Welcome to my life.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:32:10

        Y-

    22. SPSpeaker1:32:11

        That's ... I'm on a-

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:32:11

        Sounds amazing

    24. SPSpeaker1:32:11

        ... I'm on a 20-year meditation retreat.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:32:13

        [laughs] Yeah, I need to do more of that. And but I came back from that experience and went back into my normal routine, which was drinking, not coffee at that point, but a lot of iced tea. Like, I'd go to a restaurant and they would, they would just endlessly refill my iced tea.

    26. SPSpeaker1:32:27

        Mm-hmm.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:32:27

        And I felt like a complete crackhead, like a miserable-

    28. SPSpeaker1:32:30

        Yeah

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:32:30

        ... crackhead. And I was like, "Is this what my normal was? Holy shit." And the reason that I brought it up is that it strikes me that at least in that state, I would have a lot of trouble distinguishing the fine nuances of different types of fear.

    30. SPSpeaker1:32:46

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
14. 1:37:59 – 1:52:14

    Looking Ahead, Changed Views, and Wrap-Up

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:37:59

       What advice would you give to your 25-year-old self, 25 or 20, depending on who needed it the most, and if you could just place like what you were doing and where you were at the time.

    2. SPSpeaker1:38:10

       Well, 20 is still slightly too old, but like my 18-year-old self-

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:38:14

       Sure

    4. SPSpeaker1:38:14

       ... I would just tell to, I would say just not bother going to college at all. 'Cause like the year that I spent at Berkeley was a total waste of my time, basically. Not, not because there's anything wrong with Berkeley, but because I just wasn't passionate about what I was studying, and there's no, there, I mean, there was no point in me like grinding out a year of studies that I didn't care about, that, you know, I should have just like gone climbing, 'cause I mean, that's what I really cared about. And that's what's been so funny over the years, is that like with climbing, you know, I have no problem putting in, you know, 20 to 40 hours a week every week all year into climbing. Like, and I mean, that's a fair amount. I, I've been keeping a training journal, um, so I have like sorta hours of exercise, and last year, um, I counted up at the end of the, at the new year, and uh, I basically averaged like 27 hours a week of exercise every week last year, which is, you know, like I think that's kinda comparable to other... I mean, you would know more than me about other sports, like for training volume.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:39:06

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SPSpeaker1:39:06

       But I mean, and then when you think that I've probably been doing that for the last 10 years that I've been on the road, and actually, and last year was a particularly low volume year for me because I, I had a book come out, and so I did a month of book touring, and I also did like a month of touring in South America. And so like I was climbing much less than I normally would. So presumably, a few years ago living in the van, I was probably doing like 30, probably 30 or 32 hours a week of exercise, which is like a lot of time spent climbing.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:39:29

       It is a lot of time.

    8. SPSpeaker1:39:29

       But, yeah.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:39:30

       What else do you put in your training journal? What other details are in there?

    10. SPSpeaker1:39:35

        Um, it's one li- I do one line hours of exercise, one line, um, any additional like strength training type stuff or like the stretching I've been doing recently, and then one line diet, which is like ate well, ate poorly, ate so-so, or like, you know, too many cookies, like whatever, things like that.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:39:52

        Do you go back, do you eat a lot of cookies?

    12. SPSpeaker1:39:54

        Uh, s- sometimes. I have an unfortunate problem [laughs] .

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:39:56

        What's, what's, what's, what's your go-to cookie?

    14. SPSpeaker1:39:58

        Just chocolate chip cookies, like straight.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:40:00

        [laughs]

    16. SPSpeaker1:40:00

        Yeah. Yeah. I can eat a lot of cookies.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:40:03

        Yeah. Well-

    18. SPSpeaker1:40:04

        When the pounds come off

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:40:04

        ... that's probably the only thing that athletically, well, not athletically, that we share in common [laughs] .

    20. SPSpeaker1:40:08

        Oh, yeah? Do, do you go big on the cookies?

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:40:10

        I do. [laughs] Yeah, they're these-

    22. SPSpeaker1:40:11

        I see you looking towards your cabinet over there.

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:40:12

        Oh, well, I was looking. I have this like secret stash.

    24. SPSpeaker1:40:15

        Yeah. [laughs]

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:40:15

        I have to keep it out of sight.

    26. SPSpeaker1:40:17

        Yeah. [laughs]

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:40:17

        Uh, there are these chocolate chip cookies, uh, that are actually from Long Island, Tate's I think they are. There's [laughs] somebody's nodding over there.

    28. SPSpeaker1:40:25

        Oh, you have like special imported chocolate chip cookies?

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:40:27

        Well, I'm originally from Long Island, and they have, there's, they're chocolate chip cookies, then there are these, I think they're gluten-free ginger cookies, and I can't have those in my house or-

    30. SPSpeaker1:40:37

        [laughs]

Episode duration: 1:52:14