Hugh Jackman — His Best Decisions, Favorite Books, Daily Routines, The 85% Rule, & More

1. 0:00 – 5:32

   Intro

   1. TFTim Ferriss0:00

      Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat-out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question? Now would seem an appropriate time. What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton. The Tim Ferriss Show. This episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN. I've been using ExpressVPN since last summer, and I started using it as a full retail paying customer. I always test things before considering sponsors, and I find it to be a super reliable way to make sure that my data are secure and encrypted. Do you like how I said data are like a pompous ass? But I like to ensure that my data are secure and encrypted, but to do so without slowing down my internet speed. If you ever use public Wi-Fi at, say, a hotel or a coffee shop, where I often work, and as many of my listeners do, you're often sending data over an open network, meaning no encryption whatsoever. One way to ensure that all of your data are encrypted and, uh, cannot be easily read by hackers or script kiddies or whoever is by using ExpressVPN. And the onboarding process for ExpressVPN, meaning the sign-up flow, the use of the product, is one of the best I've ever seen in my life. All you need to do is download the ExpressVPN app on your computer or smartphone and then use the internet just as you normally would. You click one button in the ExpressVPN app to secure 100% of your network data. It's kind of ridiculously simple. And as many of you know, I only recommend brands that I have researched and vetted thoroughly. For me, of the many VPN solutions out there, ExpressVPN is one of the best on the market, and I use it personally. Here are a few reasons why. First, privacy. ExpressVPN does not log your data. Lots of cheap or free VPNs make money by selling your data, believe it or not, to ad companies and so on. ExpressVPN developed a technology called TrustedServer to prevent their servers from logging your information. Second, speed. Many VPNs slow your connection down or make your device seem sluggish, just to a crawl. I've been using ExpressVPN for a while now, as I mentioned, and my internet speeds are blazingly fast. I don't even notice it. Honestly, I forget that it's even on. So that includes when I connect to servers thousands of miles away or during travel, I can still stream HD-quality videos with zero lag. The last thing that really sets ExpressVPN apart is how easy it is to use. As I mentioned earlier, unlike other VPNs, you don't have to input or program anything. You just start up the app, click one button, and that's it. Super, super simple. And by the way, it's not just me saying all this about ExpressVPN. You've got TechRadar, The Verge, CNET, and many other publications rating ExpressVPN as the number one VPN in the world. So consider protecting yourself with the VPN that I use and trust. Use my link expressvpn.com/tim today and get an extra three months free on a one-year package. That's expressvpn.com/tim. Visit expressvpn.com/tim to learn more. [electronic music] This episode is brought to you by Magic Spoon. Magic Spoon is a brand-new cereal that I eat just about every day that is low-carb, high-protein, and zero sugar. I just ate a huge bowl of their cocoa flavor about an hour ago after a short workout. Magic Spoon cereal has received a lot of attention since launching last year. Time Magazine included it in their list of Best Inventions of 2019, and Forbes called it the future of cereal. It tastes just like your favorite sugary cereal from childhood. Remember that? But it's actually good for you. Each serving has 11 grams of protein, three grams of net carbs, zero grams of sugar, and only 110 calories. It's also gluten-free, grain-free, keto-friendly, soy-free, and GMO-free. All the things. It's delicious, and I don't say that lightly because most of this healthy version of X stuff is not delicious, but these guys really nail it. Magic Spoon has nailed it. It comes in your favorite traditional cereal flavors like cocoa, frosted, and blueberry. You can try them all by grabbing a variety pack at magicspoon.com/tim, or you can just grab a box or a bunch of boxes, I'm gonna order some more today, of the cocoa, which is my personal favorite. But there is a new contender for favorite flavor because they just launched two limited edition flavors, Honey Nut and Peanut Butter, which are delicious. I am a sucker for peanut butter, and, uh, it is outstanding. So I think cocoa and peanut butter are my two new favorite flavors. And fun fact, my friends are also obsessed with Magic Spoon. One of the podcast's most popular guests, Dr. Peter Attia, routinely crushes six to seven servings at a time, that's a lot, with no glycemic response. He's looked at this with a glucometer. He likes it so much, he invested. Other friends, two very fine gentlemen and also past podcast guests, Kevin Rose and Ryan Holiday, also invested. So check it out. See what the buzz is about. Go to magicspoon.com/tim and grab a variety pack or cocoa, which is my favorite, or anything else. But see what strikes your fancy. Why not? Try a variety pack and be sure to use code Tim at checkout. My listeners, that's you, get free shipping and a 100% happiness guarantee. So if you're

2. 5:32 – 7:37

   Show setup and why Hugh Jackman was a long-awaited guest

   1. TFTim Ferriss5:32

      not a fan, if you don't love it, they'll give you a full refund, no questions asked. Again, check it out, magicspoon.com/tim. That's magicspoon.com/tim. Take a look. [electronic music] Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. This isn't just any other episode. It is a very special and exciting one for me. But let's back up. This show is about deconstructing world-class performers to tease out the habits, routines, favorite books, and so on that you can apply to your own life. And this particular episode, I think, delivers the goods And then some. My guest is Hugh Jackman. I've wanted to have Hugh on the show for a very, very long time. Who is Hugh Jackman? If you have to ask that, I don't know where you've been living, under a rock. I'll keep this intro short. Hugh Jackman is an Academy Award-nominated, Golden Globe, and Tony Award-winning performer who has made an impression on audiences around the world, certainly audiences of all ages, with his multi-hyphenate career persona. He's done everything. He is as successful on stage in front of live crowds as he is on film. He's a beast in the gym. [laughs] This man does it all. You can find him on Instagram, @thehughjackman, Twitter, @realhughjackman, on Facebook, Hugh Jackman, and there is one resource I'll mention here. He talks about converting photographs into puzzles, and the website for that is portraitpuzzles.com. It'll all make sense. He'll tie it all together. [laughs] And without further ado, please enjoy a wide-ranging, thoroughly enjoyable conversation with none other than Hugh Jackman. One quick note on timing for context, this episode was recorded on May 21st, 2020, before the death of George Floyd. [electronic music] Hugh, welcome to the show.

   2. HJHugh Jackman7:27

      Tim, great to be here, man. I'm very excited.

   3. TFTim Ferriss7:30

      I am so thrilled that we are able to connect on the podcast.

   4. HJHugh Jackman7:35

      Yeah.

   5. TFTim Ferriss7:35

      I've wanted to do this for so long.

   6. HJHugh Jackman7:36

      Yeah.

3. 7:37 – 11:44

   Morning couple ritual: reading aloud, cold showers, and meditation

   1. TFTim Ferriss7:37

      And I have so many different questions I've wanted to explore with you, and I thought we would start, this might be a strange place to start, but I'll start there nonetheless, and that is in the course of doing homework for this conversation, I found an anecdote that you, in the mornings, sometimes read a book with your wife or read to each other.

   2. HJHugh Jackman7:58

      [laughs]

   3. TFTim Ferriss7:58

      Is that something you still do, and how did that start?

   4. HJHugh Jackman8:02

      Every day. Um, I nicked the idea from Patrick Stewart. I was on set with Patrick Stewart. For those who don't know him, he's a great actor who played Professor X in the X-Men series, Star Trek, lots of stuff. And he said to me that when he was about 60, he realized that he was never gonna read all the books that he wanted to read in his life. He did the calculation. And so he decided that no matter what time he, his call was, let's say he's picked up at 5:00, he w- whatever time he would've woken up, he wakes up 30 minutes earlier, gets a cup of tea, and goes back to bed, and he go- and he reads. And he said, "I don't read the paper because it makes me angry. I don't read my emails because it usually makes me anxious, gets my mind going." He said, uh... What's the other thing he doesn't read? He doesn't do emails. Oh, scripts. He won't work. He said that makes him anxious. He said, "I read a book, the kind of book that you pick up when you go on vacation, the I've got nothing to do book." And h- he's been doing that for years. And he said, "The reason I do it first thing in the morning is the day just gets away from you, and you think, Oh, I'll read later in the evening, but you don't." He says on weekends he spends an hour. So for Christmas this year, I gave Deb a couple of books which I'd got off your podcast from your, from Seth Go- the Esther Perel Seth Godin one about their five books he mentioned-

   5. TFTim Ferriss9:26

      Oh, yeah

   6. HJHugh Jackman9:26

      ... which-

   7. TFTim Ferriss9:27

      Absolutely, yeah

   8. HJHugh Jackman9:27

      ... we've now read all of.

   9. TFTim Ferriss9:28

      The books they've loved.

   10. HJHugh Jackman9:29

       Um, and we met Esther, and I signed up for [laughs] Seth Godin's marketing kind of workshop thing that, uh, unfortunately got canceled. Anyway, so we wake up whatever time we're gonna get up. Uh, th- uh, I go down, I make a cup of coffee for me, cup of tea for Deb. We come back up. I, I have a cold shower first, another thing I learned from you, uh, from your 4-Hour Body book when I was getting ready for Wolverine, the old cold bath. So I have a cold shower every morning, and then we go back and we read. And we read for at least 30 minutes, and then we meditate together, and that way we-- it's become our, like, favorite time of the day as a couple. We-- And we know that no matter what happens in the day, which invariably gets away from you, you've had that quality time together. Um, and so that's, that's just been a godsend. It's been an absolute blessing.

   11. TFTim Ferriss10:21

       I love that because i- if I'm looking at, for instance, my own experience with my girlfriend, who I'm very close to, who-- and we live together, it's so easy to say we're going to find the quality time at dinner, after dinner, at this point in the afternoon, and then the day gets away with you. So you're, you're front-loading it in a way so that-

   12. HJHugh Jackman10:42

       Yeah

   13. TFTim Ferriss10:42

       ... it doesn't get lost. And do you, do you read the same book at the same time? Do you read out loud-

   14. HJHugh Jackman10:48

       Yes

   15. TFTim Ferriss10:48

       ... to each other?

   16. HJHugh Jackman10:49

       We read out loud to each other. So we, we split it up. We do half-half, and we read out loud to each other. And it's interesting, w- if you've got something on your mind, you know, often it stirs during the night, and, and it could be... I'm not just talking negative stuff. It could be ideas. I find the evening, uh, when your subconscious is probably brewing at its, at its highest level, lots of ideas or anxieties come to the surface. So I find that first thing in the morning, you know, we'll be five minutes into reading, right now we're reading David Brooks, The Second Mountain, that book, and we might just stop and say, "Hey, I'm worried about this." Could be something about the kids or, or stuff, or stuff's on my mind an- and then we'll just end up talking about that, you know? Um, but often just the reading itself sparks things in us, um, gives us ideas, things to talk about, come together with. But we, we read the same book out loud to each other.

4. 11:44 – 15:22

   Books Hugh gifts most and the fiction that changed how he sees nature

   1. TFTim Ferriss11:44

      And I'm gonna come back to the meditation because you mentioned it, but since we're on the topic of books, what, what books, if any, come to mind, I know you read a lot-

   2. HJHugh Jackman11:53

      Hmm

   3. TFTim Ferriss11:53

      ... have you gifted the most to other people?

   4. HJHugh Jackman11:56

      Hmm. Uh, I learnt this from a great mate of mine, Billy Shaw, who's often known as Saint Billy, runs No Kid Hungry, Share Our Strength. You know that organization?

   5. TFTim Ferriss12:06

      I do. Mm-hmm.

   6. HJHugh Jackman12:06

      Yeah, they're incredible. And, uh, so he came over to my place one day and he gave me two books that I now gift very regularly. One is E.B. White's Here Is New York. And the other one is David Foster Wallace's speech, This Is Water, his commencement speech. Um, I've heard you talk about the David Foster Wallace one, so I know you know that. And he said-- I said, "Oh, I haven't read either of these." And he said, "Man, I w- I learned a long time ago, it's really nice to give books, but it can be a burden to give a big book [laughs] because people feel like, 'Oh, I'm gonna see, I'm gonna see him in a month. Oh, shit, I'm having dinner with him next week, and shit, I haven't read the book.'"

   7. TFTim Ferriss12:46

      [laughs]

   8. HJHugh Jackman12:47

      But, like, the David Foster Wallace is a 15-minute book, and the, uh, E.B. White book, Here Is New York, um, the New York had, had a program post-World War II where they would invite the greatest writers in the world to come to New York and just they'd pay them for three months just to write essays about New York. So that was his, and it's amazing to read a 1949 account of New York and how much of that spirit still resonates now. So that's the little book that to anyone who lives in New York or likes New York, I give. And in terms of fiction, and this completely breaks that rule, Tim, [laughs] 'cause this is a long book, uh, but I was gifted it actually, uh, uh, by Gary Hart, Senator Gary Hart, who I played in a movie, The Overstory by Richard Powers. I'm not sure if you read that, but that's the most transformative bit of fiction I have read in a long time.

   9. TFTim Ferriss13:39

      I need to read it. It's been recommended so many times. It's sitting on my Kindle, and I started reading it, and I remember I read for about a half hour, and it said whatever it said, .001% complete, and I went, [laughs] "Oh, my God."

   10. HJHugh Jackman13:51

       [laughs]

   11. TFTim Ferriss13:51

       How big is this book?

   12. HJHugh Jackman13:53

       No, it's big. And stick with it.

   13. TFTim Ferriss13:54

       For those who don't know the book, could you, could you give it a, just a quick description?

   14. HJHugh Jackman14:00

       Yeah. It's, uh, Richard Powers. I believe it won the Pulitzer. I think it did. Um, it, it's a piece of fiction interweaving a- about eight storylines of humans. But what you realize, the, the, the misdirection of the book is by the end you realize the book is completely about trees. So we might relegate trees or nature to some 5 or 10% of our awareness, and this book, what it does is draws you in in these incredible human stories and these very varied characters and their varying degrees of interaction with nature in v- various different forms. But by the end, you realize the book actually, the main character of the book is trees, is nature, and it completely reverses the way you look at the world when you walk outside. Now, I promise you, after you read that book, Tim, you will sit in your backyard, and you will notice things you have never noticed before.

   15. TFTim Ferriss15:00

       Oh, I'm in. All right. Uh, my-

   16. HJHugh Jackman15:03

       Yeah

   17. TFTim Ferriss15:04

       ... my, my complacency has been called. I will read-

   18. HJHugh Jackman15:07

       [laughs]

   19. TFTim Ferriss15:07

       ... The Overstory. [laughs]

   20. HJHugh Jackman15:09

       But stick-

   21. TFTim Ferriss15:09

       I've just-

   22. HJHugh Jackman15:09

       ... stick with it. Stick with it

   23. TFTim Ferriss15:10

       Yeah

   24. HJHugh Jackman15:11

       It, it, it, it works on you in the way nature does. It's patient, and it's in no rush. It, it's, it's slow, and it's steady, and it's true.

5. 15:22 – 19:43

   Meditation practice: mantra, clarity, and letting go of “duty”

   1. TFTim Ferriss15:22

      Well, I think the, the, the word true maybe, uh, is a segue to meditation. I know you've meditated-

   2. HJHugh Jackman15:29

      Mm

   3. TFTim Ferriss15:29

      ... for decades now, and you and Deb meditate in the mornings. And I, I say that as a segue because at, at least for me, meditation has been a tool of pr- that provides, helps to provide clarity-

   4. HJHugh Jackman15:43

      Mm

   5. TFTim Ferriss15:43

      ... in, in some respects. Could you describe your meditation practice and what you feel are the main benefits that are derived from that practice?

   6. HJHugh Jackman15:53

      Sure. I was introduced to meditation when I was at drama school. Um, and I... And, and it was a form of transcendental meditation. Um, there's lots of different types of, of meditation. Just very briefly, it involves the use of a mantra which you are given, which you repeatedly sound. And the very basic concept is that we-- the nature of our minds is to always be working or always be thinking, and the trick to life is not letting that mind be your master, but to let it be a servant. Then it's an incredible thing. Once it become-- Once it's running the show, it, you know, it's very easy to get off track. So during this period of meditation, you are given a mantra, which was described to me as the mind is often called the monkey mind in Eastern philosophies. So a monkey, you know, is very energetic, and if not given something to do, will be mischievous. So the mantra is, like, basically saying to the monkey mind, "I need you to climb to the top of that telegraph pole, and when you get to the top, I need you to climb back down. And when you get to the bottom, I need you to climb back up. And when you get to the top, I need you to climb back down." So it's just giving this activity. So the mantra or this word that is silently repeated ends up fading away. And the best way I can describe it is the effect that it has on me, I mean, sometimes I fall asleep, by the way, which is totally fine, uh, and clearly what my body needed, but when you first pour a glass of water, it's cloudy, and then in a period of time, that all settles, and you see crystal clear, uh, through the glass, through the water. That's what meditation does for me. It's got that feeling where things drop down. I have a feeling of coming home, the feeling of experiencing my true self and not just being caught up in the monkey mind or, um, being reactive to life, and it gives me a finer energy. Um, I, I don't always get out of meditation, like, ready to, you know, do a one-hour Peloton class, but I always come out with a finer energy. Um, it feels-- my intention feels clearer. Um, my listening is, is, um, more purposeful and, and things feel easier and more connected.

   7. TFTim Ferriss18:18

      Do you meditate then twice a day in these, these, the what-- I guess One might consider the, the traditional TM format. Do you, uh, in, if you meditate in the afternoons or later in the day-

   8. HJHugh Jackman18:30

      Hmm

   9. TFTim Ferriss18:30

      ... how do you time that for yourself?

   10. HJHugh Jackman18:33

       So I, uh, um, I always did it twice a day for years. So I started, yeah, when I was 23. I'm 51 now. So I did it very regularly twice a day. And about three or four years ago, I kind of let go of the duty element there was, and I can be guilty of this, uh, uh, uh, this, this is good for you, should be doing this. Don't fall off that wagon. You know, it's a slippery slope. [laughs] So I-

   11. TFTim Ferriss19:02

       [laughs]

   12. HJHugh Jackman19:02

       And once I let go of that too, I, I just had a kind of experiment with, with myself. I was like, "Okay, why don't you meditate when you really want to meditate?" And that has turned into a practice where it's every morning for sure, and then definitely when I'm working, if I'm on a movie set or I'm working in theater, there will always be a second one. But sometimes, um, I'll let the afternoon one go. And when I say afternoon, I can't sit down or I get restless leg syndrome, so after about 4:00 or 5:00, it's uncomfortable for me to sit for 20 minutes. So I will do it around lunchtime or s- just after lunch.

6. 19:43 – 27:34

   Sustaining stage-performance energy: rules, quiet, and pre-show centering

   1. TFTim Ferriss19:43

      I'd love to, to use this as a path to talking about self-care and maybe to sex up the expression a little bit.

   2. HJHugh Jackman19:53

      [laughs]

   3. TFTim Ferriss19:54

      The, the building and recharging of your energetic reservoir. And here's why I'm using such fancy wording [laughs] but-

   4. HJHugh Jackman20:03

      Mm

   5. TFTim Ferriss20:03

      ... I think it's appropriate. Uh, we have, we have, we have a few mutual friends, and one saw you perform on stage, uh, in, uh, I believe it was New York, and what he said to me, this is someone, Peter, who can work easily 12, 14 hours a day if he wants to for seven days a week nonstop for years at a time, and he said that he could not conceive of doing what you do even twice a week.

   6. HJHugh Jackman20:33

      [laughs]

   7. TFTim Ferriss20:34

      And [coughs] let alone, uh, the, the maximum number of times you might do it in a given week. I, I don't know what that number is. You could, you could speak to it. Uh, but could you describe your emotional energy practices and replenishing approach when it comes to, let's just say, stage, stage performances and stage work? Because it, it's, it's really hard for me to even wrap my head around how you have that much energy output-

   8. HJHugh Jackman21:05

      Hmm

   9. TFTim Ferriss21:05

      ... repeatedly in a given week.

   10. HJHugh Jackman21:07

       You see, I find this hard to believe, man, because I sit here and, and I hear you and Peter talking about the 100-mile swim that you did [laughs] or some of the crazy stuff. Th- that sounds to me like, wow, I didn't even know the human body could do that, let alone the amount-

   11. TFTim Ferriss21:24

       [laughs]

   12. HJHugh Jackman21:24

       ... of training it goes for. That kind of pushing through, that energy that pushes through pain. Um, or if you see that documentary Kim Swims, when I watch her, I just go, wow, that, that's amazing to me because I know in my heart that I was born to be on the stage, right? It's taken me a long time to feel the same feeling on a sound stage for acting. But my, one of my favorite movies of all time, and definitely my favorite quote from a movie of all time, is from Chariots of Fire, which I loved as a kid, and Eric Liddell, who's the religious runner who decides not to run on the Sabbath during the Olympics. You've seen the movie, right?

   13. TFTim Ferriss22:06

       I have.

   14. HJHugh Jackman22:07

       Yeah. There, so there's this great scene where he's meant to be going off after the Olympics to, uh, do missionary work in China, handing out Bibles or something, and his sister's talking to him. She's like, "You gotta throw away this silly running thing. Um, we have really important work, God's work to do. Um, why are you doing this and spending time on this?" You know, basically kind of accusing him of not following God's will. And he just says, he looks at her and he says, "But I feel His pleasure when I run." And I've always, somehow that line, it always makes me tear up just saying it. That's what I feel on stage. There's a kind of natural energy, and what I keep saying to my kids actually, "Don't settle. Find that thing that resonates with you in that way, where you feel some kind of the pleasure of, of the universe, of consciousness." Like, there's some joy where you feel you can do it longer. And in that way, it's not such a Herculean effort. Although I'm gonna tell you in a second, I have a bunch of sort of rituals and things that I do s- to make sure that I can be my best. But there is a natural energy that I understand other people going, "I don't know how you do that," but maybe that's in the same way I don't know how you train for ultramarathons, for example. Um, so in terms of self-care, on Broadway I have a bunch of rules, or when I was doing my tour. Um, I certainly don't drink alcohol before, and I really limit it after. It's really important for me to wake up feeling in a good frame of mind rather than that feeling of catch up. You know that feeling if you wake up and you go, "I just want to go back to bed"? Then that's a really difficult place to be in if you've got to perform that evening, 'cause then an anxiety comes in that you're gonna be withdrawing on reserves that are not replenishable. I don't go out after any show, and I would love you to come and see [laughs] I'm doing The Music Man come, but I, it, I never go out, and I make... That's a blanket rule. I don't go out with anybody. Partly because the party I've just had on stage is better than anything I can imagine anywhere else. But the other thing is-

   15. TFTim Ferriss24:27

       [laughs]

   16. HJHugh Jackman24:27

       ... I think it's really important for me to get quiet To allow what has happened, the energy of what has happened, because there is a lot of energy. Um, and I'm, I think I'm the only actor I know who I can be asleep within 45 minutes after getting off stage. There's something very calming. It's not-- it's like you've g- had your greatest workout, you have a bath, that feeling after the bath after a great workout in the evening where you just can sit and be at peace with yourself, that I love. So I limit the amount of coffee I have just because you're battling dehydration with stage work all the time. I always-- I have-- I know what my routine is before I go on stage, and I'm religious about it, and that's more about quieting my mind. Um, I don't ever want my monkey mind saying, "Oh, you didn't do your warm-up today," or, "You only half did it," or this or that. "You haven't stretched. You haven't done that. You didn't really eat very well today." You might be, you know-- The mind can-- my mind can easily pick up on that, uh, the perfectionist side of me. Uh, I always take a minute before I go on stage, literally before, to pause, um, and just connect with the senses. So even if I'm not in the opening of a show, I will stand in the wings. I first of all like to just listen to that titter of excitement as people come in to the theater, because I love the theater myself, and I remember that, and it reminds me of how, uh, privileged I am and how much I owe every single audience member at every single show. Uh, they're not coming in to see my fourth show of the week. They're coming to see the show for the first and probably only time in their lives, so-- and I-- who knows what they've sacrificed to get there. So I really take that minute, and then I fall still and remind myself that this is all in service of something. Um, I say a little-- I say, "Om paramatmane namah," which means I dedicate this show or whatever it is to the service of the absolute, that there is something beyond the show, some reason we're doing this. Same for your show, you know? There's got to be a reason beyond just what the immediate thing is there. Um, and that just connects me to that. Um, I'm pretty quiet during the day, um, when I do a show. And the other thing I really try to do is read and listen to other stuff. I had a great acting teacher, Lyle Jones, who said to me, he goes, "You, you can't call yourself a real actor unless you expose yourself to ballet and classical music and David Adam." Like, you should be so inquisitive and curious and find inspiration from surprising places. Could be a walk in the woods, but that stuff feeds you so that in the act of performing, which is very much giving out, you have enough energy there, uh, and stores, I suppose. Um, they'd be the main things.

7. 27:34 – 36:30

   Doubt, humility, and early family lessons about actions and ethics

   1. TFTim Ferriss27:34

      I'm so pleased we finally made time to get on the podcast. This is just fantastic.

   2. HJHugh Jackman27:40

      [chuckles] Me too, man. I was saying before we got on, I'm gonna say it now. I was a little nervous. I was asking myself-- I went for a bike ride this morning, and it's not-- I wasn't nervous like heart pounding, like I'm about to go on a talk show and I've got to perform. Not that kind of nervous, but I think because this is the only thing I can think of, only bit of media really that I actually consume that I'm now participating in. And I thought to myself, "What-- why do I consume it?" And the reason that I listen in is that I have learned, apart from people in my inner circle, I've learned more from your show in the last two years than anywhere else. Uh, I-- countless examples, Seth Godin, Esther Perel, um, Sam Harris. Uh, you know, I, I do his Waking Up app quite, uh, regularly. So there's so many things that I've learned, and I always feel like I'm going to get some wisdom [chuckles] that has-- that will help me in life or the people I love. And, and I think the nervousness came from a bit of a habitual thought pattern with me is like, "Oh, well, you're not that good. Like, you don't know that much, man." [laughs] Like, you know, "You're not-- You know, you've done all right, but you're not the person that people are gonna listen to on Tim Ferriss," you know? Again, [laughs] it's, you know, those doubt, those doubts that clearly have fueled me in my life. And I, I mention that, A, to compliment you on what you've created, but B, just to be completely open and honest that, uh, I have those doubts, you know, that I'm, I'm not good enough, which have driven me. And, um, yeah, sorry if I'm going off, off-piste here.

   3. TFTim Ferriss29:28

      No, I-- you're not going off-piste. There's no such thing in-

   4. HJHugh Jackman29:33

      Okay

   5. TFTim Ferriss29:33

      ... these conversations, and I really appreciate the kind words, and, uh, it means a lot to me that you listen to the show. And, uh, I also want to say that for those people who might wonder what you are like in person, that there, there's always a risk in meeting your heroes, meeting the people you might be inclined to put on a pedestal. And as far as I'm concerned, you are, in person, with your friends, with your family, with your fans, everything that someone would hope you to be.

   6. HJHugh Jackman30:07

      Hmm.

   7. TFTim Ferriss30:07

      So I just want you to, to know that, uh, at least for me, you are one of the most reassuring, uh, of, of high-profile celebrities [chuckles] in that sense, because it, it is easy to kind of fall for a facade, and, uh, you've been very inspiring to me in person. Uh, and I'll just give a few examples. Th- that-- or I'll, I'll talk about a pattern that I've observed, which is that you are polite to Everyone. Uh, th- I mean, I've seen you, you shake hands with everyone you meet. You, from, from the, whether it's the sort of janitor up to a prime minister, you're, y- you ex- extend the same courtesy to everyone, and I think that's, I think that's a rarity.

   8. HJHugh Jackman30:57

      Mm.

   9. TFTim Ferriss30:57

      So, uh, thank you for, thank you for being you.

   10. HJHugh Jackman31:00

       Yeah, please.

   11. TFTim Ferriss31:01

       And I'd li- I'd like, I'd like to ask about, in a sense, how you were shaped, and I'd love to ask about your-

   12. HJHugh Jackman31:09

       Yeah

   13. TFTim Ferriss31:09

       ... your dad, if, if that's possible.

   14. HJHugh Jackman31:11

       Sure.

   15. TFTim Ferriss31:12

       And, and I have a specific example that jumps to mind, and this is from a piece some time ago, uh, in Good Housekeeping, so I want to give credit where credit is due. But the, the quote here, and feel free to correct it, this is from you: "I remember at one point being in a fellowship, and everyone used to wear the fish symbol that said you were a Christian. So I asked my father, 'Dad, why don't you wear that at work?' And he said, 'Your religion should be in your actions.'"

   16. HJHugh Jackman31:36

       Yeah. [laughs]

   17. TFTim Ferriss31:37

       He set a great, great example. Uh, could you speak to what impact, uh, your f- your father or family had on you in terms of, of lessons learned?

   18. HJHugh Jackman31:48

       Yeah. Um, I'm glad you mentioned that story. That actually came to mind a couple of days ago. My dad, you know, when people talk about their, "Oh, my father always told me this," there weren't many times that Dad would come up with a sentence, like, but there's a few I remember. "You cannot over-invest in education," that's one he would say to us. And he says, "If you're ever in doubt of what to do, go and learn more," [laughs] is what he would say.

   19. TFTim Ferriss32:18

       [laughs]

   20. HJHugh Jackman32:19

       Um, your actions, that one, it was... I, I, I actually now remember it. It was, um, I was very, we grew up very religious. My father was converted by Billy Graham, and my mother and father, I think, went to the Billy Graham crusade, and my father was not religious at all and became a born-again Christian. My mother did not. That was one of the things, actually, I think, that, you know, brought the end of their marriage. They sort of went down different paths. And my, so, but my dad was not a, a Bible basher. He di- he rarely talked about it. And I remember saying, "Dad," because I was really about 13, 14. I was really in school, uh, uh, church groups, fellowship groups, and, and I got one of those stickers that you put on the back of the car. And I said, "Dad, we should put that. Like, we're meant to do that. We're meant to spread the word and do this." And, and when he said that to me, I was disappointed. I, I thought he was copping out, but only later did I realize that when he said, "People should know you're a Christian through your actions," is so much more powerful. Um, if someone eventually comes up to you and says, "You know, there's something about you, man. I don't know what it is, but I'd love to know where I can get it," you know? Then there's an opening. But someone, people have noticed how you act is far stronger than what you say, and we all know that. Um, I often speak a little more about my dad in interviews because my mum left when I was eight, so, uh, I was brought up from that moment on primarily by my dad. And so I got a lot of those lessons as I was growing into a man with him being around. But my mum, I always remember her saying, she says it to this day, "Everyone needs to feel appreciated. It doesn't matter what they do. It doesn't matter who they are. That's a need in everybody." And I sort of have extrapolated that out to mean people need to be seen. Um, I've learned a lot of that from Brené Brown. Um, they, they need to be seen for who they are and appreciated for what they give. And I've seen my mother in particular, and my father do that, and that's something we were all taught, so it has become a natural thing. And it really pleases me I see that in my kids too now, um, that they've picked up on that. And it's a little, really doesn't take a lot, but it, it's that outward-facing understanding where people are coming from, walking in their shoes to a certain degree. And no one, to be honest, there's no better example of that in my life than my wife, Deb. She's, she's, because you could argue that I, that's the way I was brought up. It's kind of like manners, you know? Uh, that's the way I, I was taught to be. Um, you know, I couldn't go to someone else's house, and to this day, I always offer to clean up. Even if I'm going to someone's dinner party, they always say no. Uh, I always, if there's a bowl of chips on the table, I will offer, I won't pick one up until I've offered them to everyone around me, even if it's not my house. All that stuff that I've learned. But my wife acts purely from instinct, from heart. So she, she cannot walk past someone homeless in the street. And, you know, I'll stop quite often, but sometimes I'll go, "Oh, I'm just too busy. I can't deal with this right now." She will never do that. It, it's like an instinct, an impulse. That kind of, that's where I think manners or any way you're brought up somehow goes to another level, um, of truly connecting. That's what I've learned from her. So there, there've been three big influences.

   21. TFTim Ferriss35:57

       And, uh, Deb, Deb is, uh, of course an amazing, amazing woman-

   22. HJHugh Jackman36:01

       Yeah

   23. TFTim Ferriss36:01

       ... in her own right. And, um, if, if she would like, I can certainly link to some of her works in the show notes as well, because I do think that the, the sort of dynamic duo of the two of you is, is a, is a very important-

   24. HJHugh Jackman36:15

       Yeah

   25. TFTim Ferriss36:15

       ... combination for making, uh-

   26. HJHugh Jackman36:16

       Well, mate, you, you have dinner with us, and I can't tell you how many people-

   27. TFTim Ferriss36:20

       Yeah

   28. HJHugh Jackman36:20

       ... invite us for dinner, and they'll be saying, "Listen, if Hugh's busy, that's fine, but..." [laughs]

   29. TFTim Ferriss36:27

       [laughs]

   30. HJHugh Jackman36:27

       'Cause Deb does light up a room.
8. 36:30 – 46:29

   Communications, debate, and the “sliding doors” shift from journalism to acting

   1. TFTim Ferriss36:30

      I'd love to ask about journalism or communications. This is maybe gonna seem strange, but-

   2. HJHugh Jackman36:36

      Oh, I just remember what it was about my dad.

   3. TFTim Ferriss36:38

      Oh, fire away.

   4. HJHugh Jackman36:38

      Stickler-

   5. TFTim Ferriss36:39

      Let's, let's go there

   6. HJHugh Jackman36:40

      ... stickler on ethics. If you get an invitation to go, uh- To, I don't know, go across the road to your mate's place for dinner and then an hour later you get an invitation from the Queen of England to go to the Buckingham Palace, you stick by your first one. He was just a stickler on ethics. You keep your word, n- even if it does not benefit you, you always keep your word. That was a big one. My dad was always big on ethics. And, uh, and the other beautiful one, I remember when my-- 'Cause his relationship didn't work out, and it was a big source of pain for him. Um, as, you know, he shared with me it was, uh, a real feeling of failure for him around his marriage. And, uh, when things started to take off for me with X-Men, he very rarely offered advice at all about parenting, nothing. Um, even when I asked him for advice at one point, uh, at one point, I, I had an opportunity to be in a TV show. I got cast in a TV show, and at the same time I got a spot at a very, um, revered acting school in Australia, the West Australian Academy of Performing Arts. And over the weekend I had to choose, do I go on Neighbors, which Kylie Minogue, Guy Pearce, Margot Robbie, you know, all these people, that's, that was the breeding ground, or do I go and study for three years? And I asked my dad on the Friday, I said, "Dad, I don't know what to do, and I need your help." And, and I was 22 at the time. And he said, "I can't answer that for you." And I was really like, [laughs] "Come on, Dad, please." Anyway, by the Sunday it was clear to me I wanted... You know, obviously his lesson about education had sunk in, and so I went, "No, I need to go and study because I want to feel that not only do I belong on a, you know, a TV series, uh, set, but I can also audition for the Royal Shakespeare Company in, in England." And so, and I didn't feel I had that before I studied. So I went off and studied, and when I told Dad the decision, he, he-- I remember he sighed, he goes, "Oh, thank goodness." I said, "You knew?" And he goes, "Of course I knew." I said, "Couldn't you have just saved me this grief the last two days and told me?" And he goes, "Man," he says, "you're a man. You have to make those decisions on your own." Now, as a father, I have a 20-year-old, I don't know if I'd be able to hold my tongue. If I could see it so clearly, go right, don't go left-

   7. TFTim Ferriss39:09

      [laughs]

   8. HJHugh Jackman39:10

      ... to be able to hold back. Uh, that was another great bit of advice. Um, I've gone off. And what were we talking about before?

   9. TFTim Ferriss39:16

      Well, I was gonna bring up journalism and communications, but I, I might go... We can, we can go somewhere else. I was, I was, uh, that, that was one topic sort of on the list, but we, uh, we can go in any direction that we like. I'll tie it in in the sense it's a, it's a curiosity for me as to how you came to be so well-spoken. Uh, there are many performers I've met, many people who are excellent on stage, uh, on camera who nonetheless in person or in interview otherwise are not as facile with words as you are. And I-

   10. HJHugh Jackman39:54

       Mm-hmm

   11. TFTim Ferriss39:54

       ... I noticed in, in doing homework, and I don't know if, if this is, if this is a factor, but that you were initially, uh, well, I should say in, uh, at the University of Technology in Sydney studying communications in hopes of becoming a journalist. Is that true?

   12. HJHugh Jackman40:11

       True. Yeah.

   13. TFTim Ferriss40:13

       So I'd, I'd love to hear you speak to why that's the case and, and perhaps just try to paint a picture of how you came to use words in the way that you do.

   14. HJHugh Jackman40:23

       Um, thank you, man. I haven't had that compliment before. I'll take it. Um-

   15. TFTim Ferriss40:28

       You're, you're welcome. I've interviewed 400 plus people, and I can tell you [laughs] .

   16. HJHugh Jackman40:33

       Um, my wife says I can be a little too verbose sometimes. She'll be like, "All right. Got it. Got the point. Wrap it up." Um [laughs] .

   17. TFTim Ferriss40:40

       [laughs]

   18. HJHugh Jackman40:41

       So, uh, I, I-- if I look back, I was always in the debate team. Loved debate. Uh, my brother is probably the most successful barrister in Australia, um, certainly in his field of law, an incredible debater. My other bro-- like, so we used to get into it at home, and certainly with my oldest brother, who was a Rhodes scholar, you had to be on your game or he would literally eviscerate you [laughs] in one line. So I probably learned best there. Um, kind of reminds me of Jordan saying, "I really learned how to play basketball from trying to beat my brother growing up," you know? [laughs]

   19. TFTim Ferriss41:17

       [laughs]

   20. HJHugh Jackman41:17

       Um, and then I was in the debate teams and all of that, and, uh, we always had family dinner every night, Sunday lunch as a family. Uh, there was always conversation. So in a way, that was always encouraged. Um, and in my family, I'm certainly n- I don't stand out as a speaker, but if I think about it now, it was really something that was always prized. And so I came out of high school with pretty good scores, and I was accepted into a degree, a dual degree in economics and law. Interestingly, my father was a-- my brother was a lawyer or going into law at that time. My father was an accountant his whole life for Pricewaterhouse. Um, and I was good at maths and, and I really was interested in people and good at speaking, so law and economics. And I went off and had a gap year. Halfway through the gap year, I was like, "I actually... I wonder what I think. I don't think that's for me." But I didn't really. I just knew I was very much a people person and interested in that. And this communications course was, was new at the time and, in Australia, and I, I went and studied there without really knowing anything about it, to be honest. Um, but I knew media was a big part of it, and gradually as I went along, my love particularly for radio, um, more than writing, uh, blossomed. And so I did graduate with a journalism major with that degree, but Honestly, [laughs] the biggest thing to happen for me in college was that I did a play in my last semester, which I didn't mean to do. I was doing-- I had to fill a minor elective, and my friend said, "You gotta join the theater class because it's the easiest thing possible. You turn up for four hours a week, there's no exam, there's no play, and you pass." So I was like, "Great, done." So he decided for the first time in the course's history to do a play, and I begged to get out of it, and by ballot, I got the lead role. I-- no, there was no auditions. And only when I graduated, as I was graduating, I realized I've just spent 90% of my time doing that play and loving it. And I said, "There's something wrong here." Like, I'm a-- I'm doing investigative journalism. Surely I should be really more passionate about that. Maybe something's off. We went, actually toured the play, uh, to another university that was half theater and half communications. And I remember viscerally walking into the place where we were staying. We were staying at a student house, about eight people in this house. Uh, the smell of weed was [laughs] just suffocating as I walked in. But-

   21. TFTim Ferriss43:56

       [laughs]

   22. HJHugh Jackman43:57

       ... what I remember was the moment I walked into that house and I met those people, I had this feeling all over my body that I'd made a mistake, that I should've been here, uh, or I should've been doing this course. I knew then, and it was deeply frustrating to me [laughs] to be three weeks away from graduation thinking, "Oops, I think I turned right and I was meant to turn left." Um, and so, yes, officially I graduated j- as a journalism major, but I never studied it. I went straight to go and study acting after that. So that was, uh, my sliding doors moment, I guess. But, but it has, funnily enough, I do get a lot of journalists, and I don't consider you a journalist. Do you describe yourself as, as a journalist, Tim?

   23. TFTim Ferriss44:44

       No, I think that would, that would insult-

   24. HJHugh Jackman44:45

       No

   25. TFTim Ferriss44:46

       ... any, any actual-

   26. HJHugh Jackman44:47

       [laughs] I don't know, man

   27. TFTim Ferriss44:49

       ... full-time journalist.

   28. HJHugh Jackman44:50

       I don't know. I don't know. I've got a lot more understanding of the world around me from your podcast than almost everything I read, so no.

   29. TFTim Ferriss44:56

       [laughs] I appreciate that.

   30. HJHugh Jackman44:58

       Oh, by the way, Ken Burns, you-- thank you for putting me onto Ken Burns. I am-
9. 46:29 – 51:32

   A five-year contract with himself: treat acting like building a business

   1. TFTim Ferriss46:29

      At the end of drama school, did you make a contract with yourself about pursuing acting, and could you speak to that, please?

   2. HJHugh Jackman46:38

      So I gra-- [laughs] damn, your research is good. Um, so I had worked I don't know how many jobs. I graduated drama school at 26, so gas station attendant. I dressed up in a koala suit for the National Parks and Wildlife Foundation. I-

   3. TFTim Ferriss46:56

      [laughs]

   4. HJHugh Jackman46:56

      ... worked-

   5. TFTim Ferriss46:57

      That's a tall koala.

   6. HJHugh Jackman46:58

      Oh, yeah, totally. [laughs] And, uh, yes, I've been punched in the kidneys by 14-year-olds, you know, the whole thing.

   7. TFTim Ferriss47:05

      [laughs]

   8. HJHugh Jackman47:06

      And yes, I told them to fuck off and all of that, you know. Um, uh, restaurants. But the, the thing I learned, um, from working in all those jobs, that if you start a business, it could be a pizzeria, it could be a bar, a restaurant, anything, you have to give it seven days a week for five years. And after five years, you may be able to pull back a little bit and you may be able to be in a position where you've built the brand to a certain point. You may have to-- you may be able to hire a manager, you may be able to hire staff to make things a little easier. Um, but no one really goes into owning their own business thinking, "Oh, this is gonna be the easy life." They do it because they've-- there's something they wanna create and they don't wanna be told what to do, and they go out and make it happen. And it dawned on me really only in the last semester of drama school that that's what I'm doing. I'm going out there. There's no-- no one's employing me in their company to be an actor and then sending me out. I have to go and rehire every time I go for a job, um, and my brand is my name, so I have to build that up. And so I thought, "Okay, what have I learned from all these jobs? I've gotta give it seven days a week." So I vowed to never wait for the phone to ring. I was gonna write letters. I was gonna start, me and, um, Simon Lyndon, my fellow mate I graduated with, we're gonna start a theater company, um, which he did, by the way. I ended up getting a job straight out of drama school. Got lucky, but the Tamarama Ro- uh, Rock Surfers, m- which is, uh, you know, in Bondi in Australia, still going today after 25 years. But my feeling was you have to drive, you have to work. You cannot be a victim. You cannot wait for the phone to ring. You have to go out and generate and get your brand out there and get going. So I figured five years was the time Because I was 26, so five years, I'm like 31. We all hear stories of people staying too long at a party. I mean, if you go to LA, there's just so many people who stay a good 10 years too long at the acting party, you know? [laughs] And they're like-

   9. TFTim Ferriss49:07

      I feel like that

   10. HJHugh Jackman49:07

       ... "Oh, you know, I, I met a guy at my gym, and he's introduced me. He's the guy who parks the car around the corner of his place. He knows someone who's a friend of the casting agent, and he's putting a word, and I think I'm gonna get a..." You know, that story comes out, and this feeling of, it's gonna happen next week. And, um, I figured 31. Okay, 31, if it's not happening, be stoic. By the way, thanks for Ryan Holiday and the stoicism, all that stuff, love. Um, be stoic, be hopeful, but work your ass off, but know when it's time to leave the party. So after five years, at 31, I'd done X-Men. It was all sort of happening for me. It didn't happen immediately in terms of what most people think of as, as success. But certainly after the first five years, I did actually mentally say to myself, "All right, another five years and we'll see how it goes." I don't like the word career. I, I, particularly when I began and I say to actors, I said, "I'd be wary of the word career." I said, "It's not a right that you're gonna act. 98% of actors are unemployed. It's a privilege when you get a job, and don't expect there'll always be one around the corner. Work your ass off as though this is the last one, and you have to be at your best to get there, 'cause that's kind of what it takes." So I, I'll admit, I don't redo the contract anymore.

   11. TFTim Ferriss50:27

       [static] Just a quick thanks to our sponsors and then we're right back to the show. First up, Magic Spoon. Magic Spoon is a brand-new cereal that is low carb, high protein, and zero sugar. It tastes just like your favorite sugary cereal, but it's actually good for you. My favorite flavor is cocoa. Each serving has 11 grams of protein, three grams of net carbs, zero grams of sugar, and only 110 calories. Try Magic Spoon today by grabbing a variety pack at magicspoon.com/tim. That's magicspoon.com/tim. Second and last, ExpressVPN. ExpressVPN keeps my data secure and encrypted, all without slowing down my internet speed. It is so easy, so fast, you don't even notice it's running. So if you're on public Wi-Fi anywhere and don't want your data sniffed, you don't want creepers looking in on what you're doing, this is what I use. Go to expressvpn.com/tim to get an extra three months free on a one-year package. That's expressvpn.com/tim. [static] What were some of the best decisions that you made in the first few years

10. 51:32 – 58:46

    Saying yes, trusting the gut: musicals, Trevor Nunn, and a lesson from regret

    1. TFTim Ferriss51:32

       of working hard, pounding the pavement as a, as a, as an aspiring/working actor?

    2. HJHugh Jackman51:40

       Uh, well, definitely going to drama school. That was before. That was a huge turning point. I had a big-- I just had also this attitude, you gotta say yes to everything when you graduate. Just say yes. Go for everything. When my agent called me and said, "They're looking for someone to play Gaston in Beauty and the Beast in the musical," I was like, "Well, I'm a theater actor. I'm, I'm not a singer." She said, "You know, I just think you should go for it." And me saying yes to that audition and going and getting singing lessons was a huge turning point. [laughs] I mean, you know, now I've done a bunch of musicals and I've learned a lot over those years, but I did not think I could ever do that. So that was, that was a big one. And doing Beauty and the Beast, um... Man, in my contract, I think I must be the only actor in history, in my contract it said, "Must get a singing lesson once a week, paid for by the company." [laughs]

    3. TFTim Ferriss52:33

       [laughs]

    4. HJHugh Jackman52:33

       So I was a professional, on paper, professional musical theater actor de- and, and I had to go and get singing lessons, which I loved, man, 'cause I was singing eight times a week in a show. Getting a singing lesson every week, that's really where I learned how to sing. So that year was amazing for me. But I had a-- This was more of a turning point. After-- I remember when I was doing Beauty and the Beast, I started that, getting well known for that, and I remember seeing, uh, something like, they had a list of people, what are they doing for Christmas kind of thing, and they had Hugh Jackman, comma, singer. And it was up at the theater. Someone put it up in the theater, and I just remember going, "Uh-oh, I'm being labeled as a singer." I said, "I'm an actor." Like, this is gonna... This is a problem. This is gonna affect me. And it did become a problem. Um, I couldn't get an audition for a film because there was, I don't know about the rest of the world, but in Australia, a kind of snobbishness about musical theater, that you weren't an actor, you were a performer, stagehand, you know, jazz hands, and that's not acting. So anyone in musical theater can't act, and I, I couldn't get an audition. Drove me crazy. So I made a choice then to get out, basically. I'm gonna get out of, um, theater, uh, musical theater, and I'm just gonna concentrate on acting until I've established that, then maybe I can go back to it. And just as I'd decided that, my agent rang me and said, "Trevor, Sir Trevor Nunn is coming to do Sunset Boulevard in Melbourne." And I said, I... [sighs] I said, "I really want to meet Sir Trevor Nunn." He was a huge hero of mine through drama school, uh, the Royal Shakespeare Company, everything. I, I, like, huge. I really wanted to meet him. That's who, that's really who I wanted to work for. Uh, but it was a musical, and this was another 12 months, and I thought, "Now it's gonna be back-to-back musicals. I'm gonna be even more entrenched down this path that, you know, is a one-way street." I actually-- And I think back, it was a pretty arrogant thing. I rang the casting director myself and I said, "I need you to do me a favor." And I had met her. I knew her. I said, "I really want to meet Trevor, and I want to audition for him, but I don't want to do the job." She said, "What? What do you mean?" I said, "I really want to meet him, but I've made this decision. I've got to go into acting, but can you just do me a favor? I just want to meet him, and I want him to see me act." So I went in. The audition was The most incredible hour I've ever spent. I learned so much. Like one hour on an audition, he taught me so much about acting. He heard me sing, and then he came and worked with me for 40 minutes. And I remember about halfway through that going, "Okay, if he gives me the part, I'm gonna do it. It doesn't matter to me if it's a musical or not, I've got to work with this guy. I, I feel it in my gut. I've got so much to learn from him." And that was a massive turning point. I got the part. I learned an incredible amount from him. He then went on to cast me in Oklahoma! in London, and really working with him gave me the confidence to be able to take on the world stage. I'm not sure I would have had the confidence to do that before him. But I suppose the lesson of that or the turning point of that was when you have that gut feeling, go with it. Um, and I haven't always done that, by the way. And you're gonna learn, uh... Actually, not long after. So after I did, uh, Sunset Boulevard, I doubled down on my commitment to not doing [chuckles] musicals, right? Or after Oklahoma! I'd now done three musicals, and I still couldn't get an audition for a film. And I got an offer to do The Boy From Oz, which I went on to do here in, on Broadway about 15 years ago. And when I heard the pitch for that show, I had that same feeling in my gut, "Oh my God, this is gonna be amazing. You got to do it." But my head was saying, "You've done three musicals. Stop. When are you gonna stop? You got to stop. You made a commitment." So I turned it down. And when I went to see that show two years later, by the way, I still hadn't got a film audition pretty much. [chuckles]

    5. TFTim Ferriss56:37

       [laughs]

    6. HJHugh Jackman56:37

       When I went to go and see that show, I was actually sick to my stomach because it was everything I knew it was gonna be when they pitched it to me, and there I was making some strategic plan in my head, and it was wrong. And from that moment on, I have always followed my gut on stuff, even if it doesn't make sense.

    7. TFTim Ferriss57:03

       I've, I have so many questions about this. I love where we're going. And I was gonna ask you about intuition, but first I have to ask just a brass tacks question, which is, the casting director who did this favor for you, why do you think they did that? Because that, that seems to me to not be a small ask. Why do you-

    8. HJHugh Jackman57:21

       It's not

    9. TFTim Ferriss57:21

       ... why, why did they feel compelled to do that? What persuaded them?

    10. HJHugh Jackman57:26

        Um, hmm. It's a small, um, industry in Australia, and I'd just come out, and I'd got quite a lot of recognition, I think, for that first musical, and I think she was thinking, "I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one because I think I'll see him again in something." You know what I mean? Um-

    11. TFTim Ferriss57:48

        Right

    12. HJHugh Jackman57:48

        ... and I really pitched to her the reason I got into acting was I'd seen those, you know, tapes from the Royal Shakespeare Company, the, the Bar- Barton tapes, and I'd watched so much about Trevor Nunn, and to me, that was my dream, was to one day be at the Royal Shakespeare Company and working for Trevor Nunn. Like, that was my dream. So I think I pitched it very passionately. I owned up to the arrogance. I said, "I know this is a really unfair thing to do." Um, and I, to this day, don't know if she told him that or if they knew. Maybe that's why Trevor-- As I was telling that story, I thought, "Is that why Trevor spent an hour with me? Maybe he was like, [chuckles] 'I'm gonna convince this guy to do it.'"

    13. TFTim Ferriss58:31

        [laughs]

    14. HJHugh Jackman58:32

        I'm not sure. Um, but anyway. Yeah, it's a really good question as to why. It was, it was a kindness, but I'm-- I remember her doing it through gritted teeth. I remember her going, "Mm. All right."

    15. TFTim Ferriss58:45

        "Right, Guy. Okay."

    16. HJHugh Jackman58:46

        Yeah.

11. 58:46 – 1:07:31

    Intuition and ‘messages’: faith roots, daily design, and committing without a safety net

    1. TFTim Ferriss58:46

       "This is, uh, this is, this is not the easiest ask she's ever received," but nonetheless, it happened. And in a few of the instances you've mentioned, you have, and not all, but you've, you've honed it, it seems, over time, listened to this gut feeling, this intuition, this, uh, I would say sensitivity that, that you seem to have-

    2. HJHugh Jackman59:06

       Mm-hmm

    3. TFTim Ferriss59:06

       ... even when you've had huge sunk cost, right? So you've invested years into education pointing you in one direction, and then at the 11th hour, you go, "Hmm, okay, well, I turned right. I should turn left," and you turn left. And then you have these examples that you've given. H- how do you relate to intuition or that gut feeling now? Is there a, a certain way you-

    4. HJHugh Jackman59:30

       Hmm

    5. TFTim Ferriss59:30

       ... think about it or have become more attuned to feeling it? And I'm, I'm asking in part because I've spent a lot of my life trapped in my-- the front of my brain-

    6. HJHugh Jackman59:41

       Yeah

    7. TFTim Ferriss59:41

       ... and I'm hyper-

    8. HJHugh Jackman59:42

       Mm

    9. TFTim Ferriss59:42

       ... analyzing things, and it has often been a disservice because it's, uh, overpowered feelings, intuition on deals, partnerships, friends or foes that I should have listened to, right? So I'd just be curious to know how you have-

    10. HJHugh Jackman59:58

        Yeah

    11. TFTim Ferriss59:58

        ... developed a relationship with listening to that.

    12. HJHugh Jackman1:00:02

        Yeah. Yeah, I-- It's-- I've never been asked this question. I think this is probably the most vexing, most important, vital thing to work out in your life, certainly in my life, and I think about it a lot. To answer the question what I do now, I, I just-- I think I need to take you back. I, I've never really said this before publicly, this particular thing I'm gonna say, but as I told you, I was brought up in a very religious household, so a lot of the messages I was getting and instructions for life came through the examples of Jesus and through all these characters and the parables in the, in the Bible, and I carry them very close to my heart. I can remember praying nightly for I don't know how long to God. I used to s-- I remember just saying, "I don't care, God, what it is you want me to do. If you want me to collect trash, I'll collect trash. If you want me to... I d- I do not care, but please make it clear to me what you want me to do." Please make that clear. I, I had much more fear of being on the wrong path than I had fear of failing at a path, if that makes sense. That whatever that decision was, whatever that moment of clarity becomes, whatever gets you to that feeling of Eric Liddell in Chariots of Fire, "I feel his pleasure when I run." For me, that was always, and I carry it today, even though my feelings about religion are different than what they were when I was younger, the essence is the same, that there is some calling, as Joseph Campbell would talk about, follow your bliss. There is some calling that is beyond the conscious brain's strategizing of how to be happy and successful and-- or meaningful in life. There's something elemental and instinctual. And honing that, the people I admire the most really hone that ability in, in big decisions in their life and in f- to small day-to-day decisions. Um, so now I still, like you, battle with that, 'cause I can be dominated by my mind, my brain, uh, pros and cons, think this through. And I have been working with a li- a life coach, Lauren Zander, now for four years, and this is one of the biggest things we focus on, really understanding what it is you're here for, what it is you wanna do, having those priorities very clearly set out so that those, uh, turning points in your life become clear. Um, and just to add to that, when you get married or when you make a commitment, a lifelong commitment to someone, and you have kids, then the first question Deb and I will always ask, is this good or bad for our family? So if it's bad, we won't do it. And if it's good, we will. You know? So that's a very simple thing, but that's my number one priority. And I just remembered the thing about my dad when I... I, I don't think I said it. When I got famous and things were going really well for me, he turned to me aside, he said, "Don't forget to always check that everything's okay with Deb at every point." And I was like, "Oh, okay, that's great advice." [chuckles] Uh, so anyway, I got off pace. But that, the decision-making, I still ask for that every day. You know, I do a... And I should have mentioned this upfront, uh, in terms of that first question you asked me, uh, in terms of performing and the things you do, you know, daily. I do a daily design, uh, every day. I create as if in the past tense of what the day had been. Dreams can be crazy, can be wild. And then at the end of the day, I, I score it out of 10. I keep myself accountable to what I was trying to manifest or make happen. And one thing I, uh, a consistent theme in that is that I listen to the messages, that they come in crazy ways. They come in strange but clear, concise ways. [sighs] Okay, so I've just come full circle. Let me give you an example. I'm gonna go back again. I-- in terms of knowing to get into acting, right? Following those examples, I went and studied, sorry, auditioned for an acting school, and I got in. I got in on the reserve list, so I didn't get on the first time around. This was a one-year course I did before my three-year one. I just snuck in, and I was so excited. After graduating as a journalist, I, "Okay, I'm gonna go to acting school for one year." And then I got a letter in the mail a week later saying, "Congratulations, you're in. Uh, please make sure you come, uh, with the $3,500, uh, tuition fee." And it had never dawned on me that it was gonna cost anything, 'cause when I was young in Australia, secondary education was free. Like, all university was free. So I was like, "Uh-oh." And I thought, "I've gotta go and ask my dad." And I've just graduated from college, and I thought, "I can't do that." I literally ripped up the letter, screwed it up, put it in the bin. And I'm not joking. This is, to me, one of those signs, crazy signs, that are just like a wallop in the face. I got a check the next day from my grandmother's will, she died three months before, for $3,500, the exact dollar amount. And-

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:05:31

        Wild

    14. HJHugh Jackman1:05:32

        ... yeah, I mean, that, that's an obvious example. That's when the universe is going, "All right, you're an idiot. I've given you a lot of signs." [chuckles] You went off and did that play. You walked into that house. You got that sign. You knew this is where you're meant to be. This is it, and maybe so it's time to move on. And you're about to throw it up because of $3,500 and that path you're meant to go down, you're gonna kind of falter at the first hurdle, and then the wallop comes to my face. And so I've had really clear moments of that, but I ask every single day, Tim, not ask, I, I manifest every single day that I will hear those messages. And they're not just about me, they're about my kids, they're about my wife, they're about my friends, they're about purpose, they're about meaning, they're about, um, Life of Man Coffee. There's all, all of that stuff that the direction I'm meant to go will become clear to me, 100% clear in my gut. Remember what I said about being verbose? [both laughing] Feel free to cut up, edit away.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:06:35

        Oh, no. I wouldn't say verbose. This is definitely suitable for long form.

    16. HJHugh Jackman1:06:39

        Okay.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:06:40

        The question of intuition, so one of the fine-tuning questions I have, which is based on something you said earlier, which is even if it sometimes doesn't make sense, uh, what I've noticed in my own experience is that oftentimes, in retrospect, the most important times to listen to intuition, which you could think of any number of ways, right? You could think of it as a, a few million years of pre-verbal evolution giving you a signal. You could think of it in, in a multitude of ways, but- Oftentimes the most i- important examples of me listening to intuition have been when it has seemingly made no sense, right? Where it hasn't been obvious. Uh, are, are there any examples that come to mind for you where you're like, "It just didn't seem to make sense. I couldn't connect the dots at the time, but I just felt I knew I had to do X"? Are there any examples like that that come to mind? And if not, that, that's okay as well.

12. 1:07:31 – 1:19:25

    Letting go of control: surrender on stage and the ‘Perfect Tommy’ pattern

    1. HJHugh Jackman1:07:31

       Um, you know, when I perform on stage, there, um ... I, I ad lib quite a lot. I go off script, I go to things, I pull people out of the audience, I do stuff like that. Um, I learned that from doing The Boy From Oz, where the character did that 10 minutes a night. And this is not a big life-changing moment, but first thing that came to mind was just last year I was on stage, and I never plan. Uh, people always think I've either planted someone in the audience because of what comes out. They're either be funny or something will happen. Or I've at least spent the first half of the show scouting the audience and scanning to see [laughs] who I'm gonna pick, but I, I don't. I use that as an example of just trusting that in front of 20,000 people in Madison Square Garden, I'm just gonna go with my gut on who to pick, and that's some- and there's a reason for that. And I promise you, nine times out of 10, something happens that is just crazy. And maybe it's because of that intention to be open and just to meet the situation as it arises. But I remember being in Sydney, and in the middle of the show, I'd spotted this kid, and I went ... I was going on singing a song. I stopped the song. Something in my head said, "You gotta grab that kid." So I said, I went up, and the kid was dressed in The Greatest Showman outfit. That's probably what attracted my attention, which is not uncommon, to be honest. But I went and grabbed him, and he came up on stage, and he started getting teary. Um, and I was worried that actually I'd got, like, an 11-year-old kid up on stage, and it had been overwhelming for him. And so I just sort of brought it down, and then he shared his story that he had just ... This was his first outing after recovering from brain surgery, and that The Greatest Showman was the thing he listened to every single day, the being here. Um, cut a long story short, I looked out, m- myself included, he, his father had also died. His father was a famous guitarist, I didn't know any of this, in Australia in a famous band. He had died two years before, so the day he got his diagnosis. Um, and by the way, he ... not all this came out on stage. I found a lot of this out afterwards. But something in this kid made the entire audience melt and cry. The kid ended up staying on stage with us for the entire evening. His dream was to one day perform. He grabbed his guitar. He- I got his guitar up. He sang in front of 20,000 people. He got a standing ovation. Tears are streaming down my face. Everyone, you know... He then went backstage and he joined us for the rest of our time in Sydney. He went backstage with his mom. And this was, you know, when you're doing a show with 100 people in an arena and your brain goes, "Go over to that kid," my head was screaming, "Don't listen to that. [laughs] You're halfway through a number. You're two hours into the show. People have already been here for blah, blah, blah." Like, this is the, you know. And going with that, that moment was one of the most transformative in the entire thing, and I have no idea why it came to me, and I have no idea why I stopped, but I'm really grateful I did.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:10:57

       It, it seems to me, from the outside looking in at least, that you've cultivated the ability to surrender in specific circumstances-

    3. HJHugh Jackman1:11:09

       Mm

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:11:09

       ... like that, if that makes any sense at all. Uh-

    5. HJHugh Jackman1:11:12

       Yeah

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:11:13

       ... and that seems to be a huge strength. I, I wanna come back to something you said about-

    7. HJHugh Jackman1:11:17

       I've had to work on that, by the way. I really have, 'cause I can be a bit of a control-

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:11:21

       How have you worked on it?

    9. HJHugh Jackman1:11:23

       Um, with Lauren Zander, my coach. She always jokingly, she goes, "Oh, hello, Perfect Tommy." She's like, "She's got... You've got this alter ego, Perfect Tommy, in there." She gets it from Buckaroo Bonsai. I don't know if you ever saw that '80s movie. [laughs]

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:11:35

        Yeah, I know the movie. [laughs]

    11. HJHugh Jackman1:11:36

        Yeah, so, and Perfect Tommy, right? She goes, "Oh, you're Perfect Tommy." So, you know, sometimes even when, when you gave me that compliment at the beginning when you say, you know, "You seem to be... You know, you're always kind to everyone," I'm like, "Oh, is that the real me or is that just Perfect Tommy?" [laughs] You know? So-

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:11:49

        [laughs]

    13. HJHugh Jackman1:11:50

        ... but she's really made me work on that, and to trust myself. Do the work that you need to do. Don't do an ounce more than you need to do. And I was more prone to be an overworker, an over-worrier, and miss some of the fun of my life because of it. Um, and I've really worked hard on doing that, um, on film, of letting go on stage, uh, of not letting my own expectations get in the way.

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:12:16

        And if we, if we come back to the design of the day, if I'm remembering the phrasing you used, is that a paragraph that you write down in a journal or type out in the morning, which i- if I'm, if I'm-

    15. HJHugh Jackman1:12:27

        Yep

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:12:27

        ... getting this right, is, "Today I did X. Today I felt this." It's past tense for the day to come?

    17. HJHugh Jackman1:12:34

        It's happened. So it's, yes, it's past tense. It's already happened. There's no, "I really hope. I think that. I'm ho- I'm gonna try. Um, I will." Like, today, my, my son and I had the best hour together laughing and talking, and we connected on some of the most elemental things in ways we've never connected. That kind of thing it would, it will have. Um, and I do that every morning on a text, which I send to her, because sh- as she says, you know, we all need to be accountable to someone. Um- And I'm looking at them now, uh, our relationship goes to new levels of honesty and intimacy. So that's, you know, just, just that kind of thing that, that Deb and I can, who it's the best, really the most successful part of my life [laughs] is my family life. But wanna go for more. There's new levels, there's other things. There must be things that I'm keeping hidden or I'm ashamed of that I, that I should share, you know? So I write that every day, and then either that night or if I'm too tired in the morning, I read it again and go, "Oh, sh- wow, shit, that was a four out of 10." Like, that day did not [laughs] turn out at all like that. And then it's got to do with belief really. I... And, and I'm new to this, man. Like, my wife's always been into manifestation and I was like, "I don't know if that's the way to live life." Like, you know, isn't more to be open, like, in present and deal, like, in that stoic way deal with what's coming? Can we really manifest it? But I'll give you a really great example. So of that manifesting, um, The Greatest Showman, and I have not told this story, I was on the fence about it for a long time. Uh, the studio were on the fence. I wasn't sure if they were gonna make it. We-- I wasn't, I just wasn't sure if our script was in the right place. Um, and I had lots of reasons for that. And so Lauren, my life coach, who I found through Dr. Mark Hyman, um, and has changed my life, she'll text me saying, "I need to slap you." And then [laughs] I'm like, "Okay." So I ring her up and she goes, "All right." Uh, for example, sometimes she'll ring me up and say, "You know, I think you some- I think in general you're a good listener, but sometimes I think you're better at looking like a good listener than you really are a good listener."

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:14:53

        [laughs]

    19. HJHugh Jackman1:14:53

        I was like, "Oh, all right. Challenge accepted, slap taken." But in this case, she said to me, "I think you're preparing to choke. I think you are laying the safety net for The Greatest Showman to be, um, to not work, and you're thinking of all the reasons outside of yourself why it won't work. Um, and you have 24 hours to either decide to get on or get off. But if you're on, you need to be 100% in." And I was like, "She's right." I wasn't preparing for a choke. What was the-- It's like prep- you may be preparing for a choke, but I clearly-- it's easier to do that in life. Oh, you know, I'm, I'm gonna give it a go. Uh, I'll give it my best. You know, look, I'm not sure if musical's really hard. Original musical is impossible. You know, uh, you know, we've... Is-- the studio won't spend this amount of money on this writer that we wanted. We got this writer, but, you know, we're gonna give it our best. Like, you're right there in your language pretty much gonna fail, and you're preparing yourself for the failure. And you don't wanna fall too far, so you've got the safety net so that when it fails you go, "Yeah, well, you know, if the studio had spent a bit more money on the writer or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, X, Y, Z." So I hung up the phone, slap taken, a little stunned, and I just sat down for about an hour and I imagined what that movie was gonna be in its end, and I imagined the effect it would have and why we were doing it. And then I wrote all that down, and then I wrote that down every day to the day we finished principal photography. And then I had to recommit again when we're in the editing process. And I just-- Let me be clear. Our director, by the way, [laughs] Michael Gracey, I, I have such high regard for him because from the moment we started, and eight years he was working on that film, everything that's happened with that film, he used to say, "This is what's gonna happen. This is gonna be a movie that's gonna be around forever. This is gonna be one of the legacies of your career, Hugh, blah, blah, blah." He would say all these things, and I used to say to him, I said, "Mike, this is your first film. Tone it down a little bit, dude." Like-

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:17:16

        [laughs]

    21. HJHugh Jackman1:17:17

        ... "Can't-- Why don't we just say we make a great film? Do we have-- Does it have to be one of the most successful films or something?" He would literally say, "This is the most successful musical of all time," and he would never deviate from that, ever. So I'm not saying I was the only person manifesting, but I do think that was a big turning point. And when Lauren slapped me around, that changed my intention to that project completely. And I don't think that ensures you against failure, but that quote of, "Don't insure yourself for failure," you know what I mean? Don't, uh, don't have that safety net out all the time. I really learned that from Lauren, and that's probably one of the best career examples I can give of that daily design.

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:18:02

        What, what strikes me about that is, number one, the consistency, the daily practice. The second is the accountability, like you said.

    23. HJHugh Jackman1:18:12

        Yeah.

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:18:12

        Texting Lauren, and which is something that I now want to do even with a friend. I mean, people listening could, for instance, just find an accountability partner where you text each other in the morning and then at 5:00 PM or 6:00 PM each evening you check in and you have to score-

    25. HJHugh Jackman1:18:28

        Hmm

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:18:29

        ... yourself against that accountability partner. Just seems like such a wonderful practice. And I'd like to, like to talk about practices, and I just have a few more questions for you. Uh, and I'll pull from a, a quote first, and you can, you can tell me if this is accurate or not. This is from an interview in Oprah Magazine, but, uh, it relates to meditation, and I'm gonna use this as a segue. But I, I love the, the analogy that, that you use, which is, "Everyone takes a shower every day and we don't complain about it. We do it out of discipline. There will always be an excuse not to meditate. In the Hindu tradition, there's something called ahankara," if I'm saying that correctly, "or the ego. The ego says-

    27. HJHugh Jackman1:19:04

        Ahankara.

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:19:05

        Ahankara, there we go. "The ego says you don't need to meditate You don't need to meditate, man. You're really busy. What about the kids? But do I say I can't shower today because I have to [laughs] make time for the kids? No. And o- one of the, uh, I'm sure, many elements that seems to be a discipline for you is your, your physical practice, exercise.

13. 1:19:25 – 1:28:01

    Fitness essentials and the 85% rule: rowing, relaxation, and performance

    1. HJHugh Jackman1:19:25

       Mm, mm.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:19:26

       Uh, it's, you've transformed yourself multiple times certainly, and, uh, I've seen you work out. It's, it's enough to make me wanna retire my sneakers.

    3. HJHugh Jackman1:19:36

       [laughs]

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:19:36

       Uh, it's just outrageous, uh, the, the intensity involved. And I'd be curious to know if there are any particular exercises or types of exercise that you have found to be particularly good bang for the buck. So if you were ... If you had to just take the desert-

    5. HJHugh Jackman1:19:54

       Sure

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:19:54

       ... island test and you could only take a handful of exercises or X, Y, and Z with you-

    7. HJHugh Jackman1:20:00

       Yeah

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:20:00

       ... does, does anything come to mind?

    9. HJHugh Jackman1:20:03

       Rowing machine, definitely. A rower. Um, there's a reason the rower's usually empty at the gym, [laughs] because it's difficult.

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:20:13

        [laughs]

    11. HJHugh Jackman1:20:14

        Um, and a lot of people wanna say it and feel they've worked out, and they wanna get a sweat, but they don't necessarily ... And, and I learned a lot of this from your book, you know? And I worked at a gym, by the way, yeah, The 4-Hour Body. I worked at a gym for three years, so I saw a lot of people coming in five days a week and not really changing anything about them. [laughs] Um, and the rowing machine, I think if you add in some chest work, some pushups, that's e- everything you need to keep fit, healthy, strong. Um, and I've, I've learned a lot of that. I, I work with Beth Lewis, the trainer, who, uh ... You, you can look her up. She does a lot of free classes right now, I think, during COVID. Uh, I found her through Peter. Do you know Beth? Have you met Beth?

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:21:03

        Uh, I know of Beth.

    13. HJHugh Jackman1:21:05

        Well, she was a powerlifter and a dancer, so she ... It really is great for me because, I mean, in the past, even with someone like Wolverine, I have to prepare to look physically a way, but I can't get injured. So I can't prepare as a bodybuilder. I have to be able to prepare as a really [laughs] jacked, ripped athlete/dancer because fighting is dance. It is more relaxation in a fight scene than there is strength. Um, which is probably the case for if you think about all the great athletes you see, uh, there's relaxation. And, and, and that movement has moved in sports. That's why you see every sprinter poking their tongue out now and dancing around with joy before they run the 100 meters, you know? That sense of having the right level of relaxation. I think that they call it the 85% Rule. If you tell most sort of A-type athletes to run at their 85% capacity, they will run faster than if you tell them to run 100, because it's more about relaxation and form and optimizing the mus- muscles in the right way. So Beth has really taught me that. But the rowing machine, man, you can't go wrong. You ... A- And, and if you ... And forget time. Just do the seven-minute thing. And I had to do this for a film. A movie Australia. Baz wanted me to be big, and so I was big. And then about a month before, he said, "Ah, doing a lot of research about these, uh, jackaroos or cowboys." And he goes, "They're lean. They're all lean, lean, lean." And I'm like, "Dude, you asked me to get big. I've been getting big." [laughs] And he goes, "I need you lean." So I went to my trainer and he goes, who was a rower, and he said, "You wanna get lean? Row." So apart ... As well as the ice baths that I learned from your book, which I used all through the Wolverines, particularly the later Wolverines when you see me in better shape. That's a great way to lose fat. Um, but seven-minute row, four times a week, and the goal is 2,000 meters. And, and when you try it, at some point, you're gonna hate me for it. But still-

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:23:08

        [laughs]

    15. HJHugh Jackman1:23:09

        ... that's the quickest, best way.

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:23:11

        That's, that's excellent advice. Yeah, the, the rower hits your entire, almost your entire posterior chain, and then you do some pushups-

    17. HJHugh Jackman1:23:17

        Yes

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:23:17

        ... and you're, you're in good shape.

    19. HJHugh Jackman1:23:19

        Yeah. It's such a good building exercise for deadlifts and all these core movements, compound movements, getting your scapula, everything sort of in the right place, and your breathing, and relaxing your neck, you know, at the same time as doing it. Um, yeah, I would say the rower.

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:23:37

        And I love the, the 85%, run at 85% effort example that you gave. I find so much truth in that statement, and I haven't ever thought of it. But you could apply that to sitting down and writing. You could apply it to almost anything where being-

    21. HJHugh Jackman1:23:53

        Yeah

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:23:54

        ... tense is not your friend. [laughs] It's not going to help you.

    23. HJHugh Jackman1:23:58

        No, no. And that's my ... Like, everyone's got different things. If I was coaching me, myself, like if I was the coach and Hugh Jackman was on my team, I wouldn't put more pressure on him, push him more. I wouldn't yell at him, scream. That, I've got that motivation. If anything, I have had to work from building up insecurity. So I'm not good enough. Uh, I need to work extra hard. Uh, if I do everything perfectly and I work my ass off, then I'll be okay. That kind of thing. Which, in the end, does certainly limit your ability to enjoy [laughs] life or enjoy the row or the show or anything like that. But it doesn't get the best out of you. Uh, it really doesn't. So I mentally, quite often during the day, just before I do an activity, imagine that it's done, that feeling I have when it's done and gone well, and I go into it with that. Um-

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:24:57

        I love that

    25. HJHugh Jackman1:24:57

        ... it's that Viktor Frankl quote, "Live life as though it's the second time around, but you got it wrong the first time." [laughs]

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:25:05

        [laughs]

    27. HJHugh Jackman1:25:05

        Um, is a good one. And that's, that's what works for me. Or even if you practice a simple thing, just sit down and as you're breathing in- Imagine that you're breathing out, 'cause a lot of us, me included, and I, and I got this from my singing teacher, um, I breathe in with a, "All right, I got to sing this big note. All right, let's hope it goes well," you know? And all of a sudden I'm tense, and I'm- my breathing's gone up, my larynx goes up, and I've- I'm gonna have to work my ass off to get that note out, right? [laughs] Whereas the great singers, the ones that make you melt when you listen to them sing, when they're breathing in preparing, it's like they're breathing out. They're relaxed as they breathe in.

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:25:44

        Oh, I love that.

    29. HJHugh Jackman1:25:44

        And then they're ready for bed. So there's some of the, the little things I use, and I, I suspect you're a little similar to me, Tim, right? The 85- you, you work better with the 85% rule?

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:25:54

        I definitely do. I mean, if I, if I think about the times when I've performed best, it's never when I'm, uh, whipping myself extra fast and extra hard with a, a cat o' nine tails-
14. 1:28:01 – 1:33:05

    Puzzles as meditation: how to start, what to choose, and why it changes noticing

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:28:01

       ... something I think is near and dear to your heart, and it's, it's puzzles and games. So you-

    2. HJHugh Jackman1:28:07

       Yeah. [laughs]

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:28:07

       You, some people know this, but not everybody realizes that you're a connoisseur of puzzles and games, and I'm wondering for s- for someone who has been perhaps a little too serious, taken themselves and their work a little too seriously, and they need or want to explore puzzles or games, are there any that you might, any approaches or specific games or puzzles you might recommend people start with?

    4. HJHugh Jackman1:28:29

       Um, start with 1,000 piece, right? Anything less than that's probably gonna be... Like, 1,000 piece is good. And, you know, and that'll take you a few weeks probably, but it's just enough of a challenge. Um, don't, [laughs] don't pick up the black and white photo, right? On the front cover to start with. Have some color, make it a little easier. Um, I love the company Wentworth. Uh, there's a few other puzzle companies, but Wentworth, when you put it, it's got like this, some technology, when you put the piece in, it's like squeezing a pimple. It goes like, "Ah."

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:29:06

       [laughs]

    6. HJHugh Jackman1:29:07

       It's like the best, like you know. Like, there's some puzzles that are made a bit cheaply, and you're like, "I think that fits. Not sure." This has got something about it, click technology or something.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:29:16

       [laughs]

    8. HJHugh Jackman1:29:17

       And you go, "Oh." So yeah, clearly I'm into it. And, um-

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:29:21

       Oh, man, that's amazing

    10. HJHugh Jackman1:29:22

        ... see, the, after a show, you said what do I like doing after a show, like if I could have my way, I'd eat something, and I'd just spend an hour doing a puzzle. Um, I actually have to set my alarm to make myself go to bed, because I, I can stay up till 4:00 in the morning doing puzzles. And for someone with restless leg syndrome, it, by the way, it doesn't come up at all when I'm doing a puzzle. But start with a Wentworth 1,000 piece.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:29:42

        Do you have... Two things, do you have any recommendations on subject matter for the, for the image? And then number two, what do you get from assembling puzzles? What is it that makes it so addictive to you and so mesmerizing?

    12. HJHugh Jackman1:29:55

        Um, I like to do puzzles of places, um, that I've been or lived in. Like, so, or now you can send in a photograph, and I did this one at Christmas. So I did this for Deb for Valentine's Day. I sent her a photo of the two of us. It's a shot she loves, and we're on a vacation to a place we always go to. So as I'm going through it, it's reminding me of where I've been, of that feeling in that moment. And because you look at a scene, all the ones of New York, you're looking at this scene for about a month, and you're focusing in minute details of this building and that building or that tree, this tree. When you go back to that place or you go out into that world, your appreciation of the world is so much greater. I, I guess, I'm not an artist, but how artists must feel when they're trying to solve color, that when they watch a sunset, they're appreciating it in a way far more than we do, just because they spend all that time immersed in different colors and combinations and composition. Um, why is it so addictive? I don't know. Like, the reason I got into it, I got into it at a point, my father had just had an operation or something, and I thought, "I've got to find something for the two of us to do together." And he had no interest. [laughs] Like, we were 30 minutes in, and he was like, "Yeah, I'm out."

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:31:16

        [laughs]

    14. HJHugh Jackman1:31:18

        And I had not done a puzzle since I was, like, eight years of age, and now I'm addicted to them. So it stuck for me. I think it's probably another form of meditation in a way. It stops my mind going. There is, um, a weird sense of accomplishment even in every piece. Oh, got that piece. It's, it's detail. It's you're zoning in on this image for a month and looking at it and looking at the detail. Um, it's just deeply satisfying to my mind, um, and my being. I just, I just feel very relaxed when I do it. I feel guilty when I do it because it's a very solitary thing, and I try and get the kids involved, you know, really to offset the guilt. [laughs]

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:32:02

        [laughs]

    16. HJHugh Jackman1:32:02

        But they're not into it really, so, you know. Yeah.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:32:06

        It sounds like to me I need to take a picture of a beautiful outdoor space, have it made into a puzzle, read the overstory, and work on-

    18. HJHugh Jackman1:32:15

        Yes

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:32:16

        ... for a day.

    20. HJHugh Jackman1:32:16

        Yes.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:32:17

        That sounds like it would-

    22. HJHugh Jackman1:32:18

        Where do you sit and have coffee? Do you sit out in the backyard there? Where, where are you?

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:32:21

        I sit, I, I sit outside. I'm very fortunate to have a lot of trees nearby.

    24. HJHugh Jackman1:32:26

        Take a photo of that, right?

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:32:28

        Yeah. That's great. I-

    26. HJHugh Jackman1:32:29

        You send it off to, I think it's... Oh, I'll send it to you. I can't remember the name of it off by heart. I put it on my website once, my jigsaw puzzle or something.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:32:36

        I'll put it in the-

    28. HJHugh Jackman1:32:36

        Anyway

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:32:36

        ... show notes once you send it to me too.

    30. HJHugh Jackman1:32:38

        Yeah. Um, and, and then when you go out for that coffee, it will always be different to you. You'll notice things that you have never noticed before.
15. 1:33:05 – 1:41:47

    Coaching and the ‘art of living,’ then wrap-up and outro

    1. HJHugh Jackman1:33:05

       And I love that you use that phrase art of living.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:33:07

       Mm.

    3. HJHugh Jackman1:33:08

       It is an art. That's, I mean, I, I used to think it was an Australian thing, like I think it was an Australian thing. Like, oh, come on, all the Americans always have, you know, therapists, psychiatrists, and come on. You know? Silly. But it's a little arrogant to think you've got it all sorted out. Why, why wouldn't you want help? Like, Roger Federer's the greatest tennis player of all time, and he has a full-time coach, right?

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:33:31

       Right.

    5. HJHugh Jackman1:33:31

       So why-- Pavarotti, I have a sing- Pavarotti had a singing teacher to the end of his life. Um, why wouldn't we invest that in the art of living? Um, and so certainly with me, with Lauren, Xander, that's changed my life in the last four years big time.

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:33:51

       Hugh, I so enjoy our conversations.

    7. HJHugh Jackman1:33:54

       Mm.

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:33:54

       And this has been so much fun, and, uh-

    9. HJHugh Jackman1:33:58

       Yeah

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:33:58

        ... I just really ap- applaud you for, uh, dedicating yourself to the art of living and continual improvement and also sharing your gifts with the world. I, I, I think that, uh, you, I mean, you really are... And, and I hope this doesn't come off as, as trite sounding, but you really are what a diehard fan would hope you to be. And I don't mean that in-

    11. HJHugh Jackman1:34:20

        Mm

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:34:21

        ... a superficial way, but the, the kindness that they see, the, the compassion that they see, that is not an illusion. And I, I, I feel that's important to underscore because I do think it's rare. I do think it's rare, and I recognize that that's not just how you popped out of the womb. That's required deliberate thought and practice and awareness. So I, I really-

    13. HJHugh Jackman1:34:45

        Mm

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:34:45

        ... appreciate that. I appreciate you, and-

    15. HJHugh Jackman1:34:48

        Thank you, man

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:34:48

        ... thank you so much for taking the time to, to spend-

    17. HJHugh Jackman1:34:51

        Yeah

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:34:51

        ... spend some time today.

    19. HJHugh Jackman1:34:52

        Honestly, it was my pleasure really, and, uh, keep up the great work, and, uh, good luck with the puzzle, man. [laughs]

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:34:58

        [laughs] You too. You too.

    21. HJHugh Jackman1:35:00

        I'm telling you, man, I know-- I think I know enough about you. Your girlfriend is gonna rue the day I ever met you.

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:35:07

        [laughs] I'll, I'll have to make sure I have a backup puzzle, uh, for Valentine's Day, and we'll, um, I'll, I'll offset the-

    23. HJHugh Jackman1:35:14

        [laughs] That's a great way in. [laughs]

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:35:15

        I'll offset the risk. And, uh, to everybody listening, you can find show notes on everything we discussed, and there will be lots, lots of goodies at tim.blog/podcast. And until next time, thanks for tuning in. [upbeat music] Hey, guys. This is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is 5-Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And 5-Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up [laughs] in the, uh, the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I have read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to 4hourworkweek.com. That's 4hourworkweek.com all spelled out, and just drop in your email, and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Magic Spoon. Magic Spoon is a brand-new cereal that I eat just about every day that is low carb, high protein, and zero sugar. I just ate a huge bowl of their cocoa flavor about an hour ago after a short workout. Magic Spoon cereal has received a lot of attention since launching last year. Time Magazine included it in their list of Best Inventions of 2019, and Forbes called it the future of cereal. It tastes just like your favorite sugary cereal from childhood. Remember that? But it's actually good for you. Each serving has 11 grams of protein, three grams of net carbs, zero grams of sugar, and only 110 calories. 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Episode duration: 1:41:57