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Tim FerrissMalcolm Gladwell Interview (Full Episode) | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)
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CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 12:38
Easiest and Hardest Books, and Michael Lewis as Storyteller
After the intro and sponsor material, Tim asks Malcolm which books were easiest and hardest to write. Malcolm links hard with fun, says his last books were his most enjoyable, and names Michael Lewis as the gold standard of storytelling.
- •Malcolm equates hard with fun and says the last two books were the most fun
- •He resolved about 15 years ago to become a better storyteller
- •Michael Lewis is his gold standard, though he says he can't be him
- •Malcolm tells many short stories because he lacks the confidence to sustain one for 200 pages
- •Tim says his nonlinear book structure comes from the same worry
- 12:38 – 15:12
No Writer's Block: Newspaper Habits and Thinking Before Writing
Malcolm explains that a decade at newspapers cured him of writer's block. He says a book is about 20% writing and 80% organization, and that for every hour of writing he spends three hours thinking.
- •Newspaper deadlines make writer's block unthinkable
- •Writing a book is roughly 20% writing and 80% organization and logistics
- •Three hours of thinking for every hour of writing
- •The actual writing is just putting down what is already worked out in his head
- 15:12 – 22:09
How Stories Begin: School Shooter Transcript, Jewish Lawyers, and a Mennonite Pastor
Asked for an origin story, Malcolm describes finding a school shooter's interrogation transcript online and the Jewish lawyers chapter that anchored Outliers. He also tells of interviewing a 98-year-old Mennonite pastor for Revisionist History, where his job was simply not to ruin it.
- •The school shooter transcript made that New Yorker story write itself
- •The Jewish lawyers chapter held all of Outliers' themes in miniature
- •A 98-year-old Mennonite pastor's interview became his favorite Revisionist History episode
- •Sometimes the storyteller's only role is to not screw it up
- 22:09 – 26:11
Organizing Notes and Choosing What's Interesting
Malcolm describes his old-school process of transcribing interviews himself, printing them, underlining passages and moving them into Word files. He says judging what is interesting is the core skill of a writer, and that he tries several openings and doesn't start at the beginning.
- •He transcribes interviews himself, prints them, underlines and moves excerpts into a Word file
- •Deciding what's interesting is the core of a writer's value
- •Repeated passes of pruning distill a very long interview into a couple of thousand words
- •There are many good ways to open a chapter, which takes pressure off
- 26:11 – 35:33
Podcast Storytelling and Becoming a Better Public Speaker
Malcolm says podcasting changes storytelling because tape, voices and emotion matter, using a memorial acapella song as an example. Tim then asks about his keynotes, and Malcolm explains that he realized speaking needed ten times more work and is a performance, citing Niall Ferguson's toast as a model and authenticity as his aim.
- •A podcast opening can come from powerful tape that print can't convey
- •Speaking required about 10X more work and is a performance, not reading an article
- •Niall Ferguson's seemingly spontaneous birthday toast is his speaking benchmark
- •He strives for authenticity even when speaking to audiences from worlds he doesn't belong to
- 35:33 – 45:46
Finding More Stories by Walking Around the Nugget, and Learning to Ask Questions
Malcolm explains how one teenager's story in Revisionist History grew into three episodes on college recruiting and philanthropy. Tim asks who taught him to ask questions, and Malcolm credits his father, who has no intellectual insecurity and asks the obvious questions.
- •One kid with a 150 IQ led to episodes on colleges' failure to find such kids and on philanthropy
- •He often stops interviewees to make them elaborate on points they skip over
- •His father, a mathematician, asks dumb questions without fear, including with farmer neighbors
- •He imagines his father would have asked Bernie Madoff questions until the scheme unraveled
- 45:46 – 50:55
Best Investments, Failure and Quitting Running at 15
Tim moves into a rapid-fire list of questions. Malcolm says his best investments are of time spent persevering past the point he would normally quit, and a favorite failure was losing races and quitting running at 15, which he later revisited.
- •The best investments are time spent persevering, such as the long hunt that found the school shooter transcript
- •Good discoveries come only after elongated searches
- •Quitting running at 15 was his first real failure
- •He later scrutinized his reasons for quitting, tying into the idea of Revisionist History
- 50:55 – 57:38
Morning Routine, Writing Habits and Family Traits
Malcolm describes eating little in the morning, drinking Lapsang Souchong, checking three websites, and writing in noisy public places before lunch. He covers his evening running, his family of champion sleepers, and traits like introversion and not being adventurous.
- •Wakes around 8, drinks Lapsang Souchong and eats half a cup of oatmeal
- •Checks letsrun.com, Marginal Revolution and espn.com before starting work
- •Writes in coffee shops in the two hours before lunch, preferring the noise from his newsroom days
- •The Gladwells are epic sleepers but introverted and not very adventurous
- 57:38 – 1:05:43
Bad College Advice, Flawed Friends and Compensating for Flaws
Malcolm calls the advice to get into the best college the worst advice, saying a good college is where you have late-night conversations with interesting people. He praises learning from flawed people, and says he turned his impatience and sloppiness into strengths by compensating for them.
- •Obsessing over best-college rankings is bad advice; interest matters more than test scores
- •A great college is one with deep late-night conversations
- •A hapless but brilliant college friend taught him about compensating for weaknesses
- •He is sloppy and impatient and compensates by forcing himself to invest more time
- •He prefers openness to opportunity over planning his path
- 1:05:43 – 1:13:18
Galen Rupp, Restraint in Running and Systems
Asked about success, Malcolm names runner Galen Rupp for his systematic career and his beauty of motion. The two discuss how training is about restraint and racing is not, with Tim bringing in Charlie Francis and the pushing of elite athletes.
- •Galen Rupp stays with one coach and a thoughtful training path, and runs beautifully
- •Running requires restraint; being a perfectionist leads to injury
- •Charlie Francis said his job was to rein athletes in, not push them
- •Training is about restraint but racing demands letting go, which Malcolm finds hard
- •Malcolm envies the structure Rupp has and values leaving no potential on the table
- 1:13:18 – 1:19:09
Favorite Books, Spy Novels and Brian Eno
Malcolm names books he gifts most, including Timothy Wilson's Strangers to Ourselves and The Merchant Princes, and recommends starting spy novels with John le Carré. His most impactful cheap purchase was Brian Eno's Another Green World, and he praises Eno's articulateness.
- •Strangers to Ourselves and The Merchant Princes are books he gifts often
- •The Merchant Princes covers the Jewish immigrant founders of American department stores
- •Start spy fiction with John le Carré, including The Spy Who Came in from the Cold
- •Brian Eno's Another Green World is his most impactful purchase under $100
- 1:19:09 – 1:26:36
Believing in Ghosts, Peter Thiel and Atul Gawande
Malcolm says he believes in ghosts and in things outside direct experience, citing a haunted house in Jamaica and his mother's twin experiences. Tim brings up Peter Thiel's critique of his views on success, and Malcolm praises Atul Gawande's checklist work as innovation requiring courage.
- •Malcolm believes in ghosts, citing a haunted room in Jamaica
- •Believing in God makes believing in ghosts not so hard for him
- •Peter Thiel's book disagrees with his emphasis on circumstance over individual agency
- •Atul Gawande's checklist work took risk to his reputation and was carried out in practice around the world
- 1:26:36 – 1:30:53
Advice to a 30-Year-Old Self: Leave North America
Malcolm says he would tell his 30-year-old self to leave North America, especially for the developing world. Tim shares his exchange year in Japan, and Malcolm praises Mennonite and Mormon missions and shares his own short trip to Japan.
- •Malcolm says young people, especially privileged ones, should leave the cocoon
- •Mennonites and Mormons institutionalize sending people to other cultures
- •A year in Paris or Florence doesn't expand horizons; go somewhere real
- •Tim's year in Japan at 15 upended his worldview
- •Malcolm recounts a hidden Tokyo coffee shop where his tip was refused
- 1:30:53 – 1:35:14
Why Podcasting and the Future of Revisionist History
Malcolm explains that a friend running the Slate Group persuaded him to start the podcast. He enjoyed group creation and the emotional power of audio, and he and Tim discuss experimenting with formats and possibly inviting others into the show.
- •A friend at the Slate Group pushed him into podcasting
- •Group creation and meetings were novel for him
- •Audio can generate emotion in ways the page can't
- •He may do another season and possibly bring in another host
- •Tim encourages experimenting with the format, noting his own hits and misses
- 1:35:14 – 1:45:25
Billboard, Mottos and 'Difficult Cases Make Bad Law'
Malcolm says his billboard would show a favorite runner, Asbel Kiprop, and he wants track to be popular. His guiding adage is that difficult cases make bad law, which he applies to the response to 9/11. The episode closes with where to find him and Tim's outro.
- •His billboard would feature Asbel Kiprop and promote track and field
- •He likes the legal adage "Difficult cases make bad law"
- •He argues policy shouldn't be built on a single outlier event such as 9/11
- •Tim extends the idea to personal life, and Malcolm says humans are resilient
- •He can be found at revisionisthistory.com and @Gladwell on Twitter
