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Tim FerrissMike Rowe Interview (Full Episode) | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)
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EVERY SPOKEN WORD
120 min read · 24,242 words- 0:00 – 15:47
Meeting at TED and the Sheep Testicles Story
- TFTim Ferriss
Optimal minimal [upbeat music]
- MRMike Rowe
At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question? Now we're just seeing a perfect kind of-
- TFTim Ferriss
What if I give you all of it?
- MRMike Rowe
I'm a cybernetic organism. Living tissue over metal endoskeleton. The Tim Ferriss Show.
- TFTim Ferriss
This episode is brought to you by Audible, which I have used for years. I love audiobooks, and I have two to recommend right off the bat. Number one is perhaps my favorite audiobook of all time, and that is The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman, the only audiobook I've wanted to immediately listen to a second time as soon as I finished. It's amazing. You will thank me. The Graveyard Book. The second is Vagabonding by Rolf Potts, which had a huge impact on my life and formed the basis for a lot of what became The 4-Hour Workweek. So all you need to do to get your free audiobook and a free 30-day trial is go to audible.com/tim, and you can choose one of those two books, The Graveyard Book, Vagabonding, or more than 180,000 audio programs. So that could be a book, that could be a magazine, that could be a newspaper, could be a class. It's that easy. Go to audible.com/tim. That's audible.com/tim, and grab a book. Enjoy. This episode is brought to you by MeUndies. If I'm not going commando, I'm in MeUndies. I have been testing these underwear for three to four months now, pretty much every day, and in fact, threw out a bunch of my other underwear this morning. And on the road, in the house, they are extremely comfortable. They look good, feel good. They are made of micromodal, two times softer than cotton, as scientifically tested using the Kawabata method. Sounds very fancy, of course. And I get a lot of compliments from the ladies for these. You don't get diaper butt. You don't get the tired elastic band. They look great, and they have underwear for both men and women. Check out meundies.com/tim, and you can see everything I've been wearing, the ridiculous, the sublime, everything in between, including my favorite, which is called out. And I would be remiss if I didn't mention their lounge pants. This is a new thing, and I've been wearing their lounge pants when I record podcasts. I've been wearing them out and about when I'm walking the dog, meeting people for coffee, and they are extremely comfortable. They'll-- They're made from the same material as the underwear. But some of them, like the blue ones I have, have pockets, so you can walk about without seeming like you're off of your meds and completely crazy. So that is awesome. And if you're not happy with the first pair you try on, I assume that refers to the underwear, they'll refund you completely, and you can keep the pair you tried on for free. But if you're that kind of person, you should be ashamed, 'cause that's disgusting. Uh, meundies.com/tim, check it out. Hello, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. I've had a bit of wine to drink, and by a bit I mean two bottles with a friend of Pleiades by Sean Thackrey, which I highly recommend. This show is usually about deconstructing world-class experts, and this episode is no exception. Although instead of a chess prodigy or a military strategist or an entertainment icon, we have perhaps the best storyteller and pitch man I've ever had on this show. Uh, certainly he would give Cal Fussman a run for his money, and he is none other than Mike Rowe. Uh, Mike Rowe you may know from Dirty Jobs, but I'm gonna read his bio because I've had enough to drink, and this is on mikerow.com. [laughs] And having spent some time with Mike now, this is, uh, this is very fitting. Here we go. I'm gonna read the entire paragraph, so bear with me. Uh, and this episode, I will say, is so worth listening to in its entirety because we cover how to sell a pencil, QVC, the meaning of freelance, the business of Mike Rowe, his mentors. We talk about some of his favorite, uh, influences and mentors. We talk about favorite books. We talk about the art of voiceover. We talk about Bruno Mars and how he became Bruno Mars. We talk about Orson Welles. It goes on and on and on. I had a blast with this. I just got back from spending some time after the interview with Mike, and I hope we have a part two and a point [laughs] a .3. Oh, Jesus. I'm with somebody next to me, and they're admiring my state of inebriation. Here we go. Mike Rowe, from the website, is a TV host, writer, narrator, producer, actor, and spokesman. His performing career began in 1984 when he faked his way into the Baltimore Opera to get his union card and meet girls, and that is true, both of which he accomplished during a performance of Rigoletto. His transition to television occurred in the-- in 1990 when, to settle a bet, he auditioned for the QVC Shopping Channel and was promptly hired after talking about a pencil for nearly eight minutes. There, he worked the graveyard shift for three years until he was ultimately fired for making fun of products and belittling viewers. [laughs] So all of that is true, and we dig into it. And you should say hi to Mike on either and/or Twitter, and I'm flipping through pages because I've had too much to drink, @MikeRoweWorks. That's Twitter, @MikeRoweWorks, or on Facebook. [laughs] Facebook. Wow, it just gets better and better. Uh, TheRealMikeRowe. Uh, this was a blast of a conversation that I've wanted to have for 15, 20 years, and I hope you enjoy it. So say hello to Mike. And without further ado, here is my conversation with the inimitable Mike Rowe. Mike, welcome to the show.
- MRMike Rowe
I think you mean welcome to your living room.
- TFTim Ferriss
Welcome to the esteemed studio Of Tim Ferriss Enterprises, i.e. my living room
- MRMike Rowe
Sophisticated, understated, with a certain insouciance and, dare I say, an Asian influence.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs] I- that's actually my Tinder description.
- MRMike Rowe
Not bad.
- TFTim Ferriss
You just, you, you-
- MRMike Rowe
Is it working? [laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs] It's converting pretty well. [laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
I have wanted to have the chance to sit down with you for many years, and I wanted to thank you right off the bat. I'm not sure if I mentioned this when we met, which we'll get to, for the first time, but you helped keep me sane for a period of several years when I had an extremely punishing job-
- MRMike Rowe
Hmm
- TFTim Ferriss
... from about 2000 to, uh, 2002 specifically. That was, that was when I was logging the most hours. And I would come home, and there were two shows. It was Dirty Jobs, uh, so you, and then Geoff Corwin-
- MRMike Rowe
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
... who were, like, my, my th- my tele-therapists.
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
And, uh, so I just wanted to, to thank you for putting out good work.
- MRMike Rowe
Well, you're welcome. I mean, look, when people say things could always be worse, um, it means whatever you decide it means. But then when you can actually turn on the TV and see some sort of optical manifestation of what worse is, well, there you go.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
You know, reinforcement.
- TFTim Ferriss
Well, I remember, I remember one episode in particular. Oh, I remember several episodes, of course, but one came to mind. [laughs] I'd seen you do, do really, really dirty stuff. There was one where I think you were winterizing a boat-
- MRMike Rowe
[laughs] Sure
- TFTim Ferriss
... and you just looked so bored out of your mind. And I just remember thinking exactly what you said. I was like, you know, sitting in the fire exit, violating code at this startup, being unable to move, sleeping under my desk. Those are all hard things, but at least I'm not doing that.
- MRMike Rowe
I'm not wrapping a boat.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah, that was, um, Manhattan Beach, oddly named, since we were in Cincinnati on the river. And it was, I think, late November, and all of the pleasure crafts down there, you know, are obviously vulnerable and susceptible to the, to the climate in a huge way. I mean, they'll just crack, it just gets so cold. And a team of guys wrap them in the same way you might wrap your sandwich in-
- 15:47 – 18:26
No Second Takes and Improvisation
- TFTim Ferriss
How did you become good at impromptu performance? Because the fact of the matter is, at that same event, and I watched your talk, it was a very good talk, I thought.
- MRMike Rowe
Thanks.
- TFTim Ferriss
And the vast majority of other presenters probably spent weeks or months agonizing over what they were going to do.
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
But you seem to have just an incredible innate, and I hate to use that word, but I'll throw it in there just, just for the fun of it, ability to improvise and perform. Where does that come from?
- MRMike Rowe
Thanks. Um, I don't know is the honest answer, but if I had to guess, I would say one of the, one of the things that was important on Dirty Jobs, and, uh, one of the few things I really insisted upon, was no second takes. And the reason I did that wasn't because I thought it would make the show better. I did it because I thought it would make the show more authentic, and everybody was talking about the importance of authenticity back in 2003. They still are today. It's, um, it's really hard to do, you know? And, and when you consider how many people say it's critically important and then look at the things people do to put barriers between themselves and the authentic experience they, they actually want to impart, uh, it'll break your heart, you know? And, you know, turn on news, listen to FM radio. The reason it all sounds the same, the reason most TV, I think, looks the same, is because we're all doing it the same basic way. So my hope with Dirty Jobs was to say, "Listen, this is gonna be a hot mess. I mean, this is warts and all. We're gonna go into the field with a good-natured crew. Everybody has a camera. Um, we never stop rolling until or unless we have to, and we never go back to, quote-unquote, 'pick it up.'" So I don't know that I'm necessarily good at improvising, but I'm, I'm almost always better at take one because I do a lot of other things now that, you know, I, I like to get along with people, and so they wanna do it again, and so I'll do it again. But it doesn't matter how facile you are the second time. The second time is always going to be a performance. And, uh, I learned that lesson early on and forgot it for about 15 years and then with Dirty Jobs had a chance to circle back and, uh, and live it. And so, you know, whether it's a speech or a show or a commercial or a podcast or a Facebook post, whatever it is, you know, I wanna get it right, but not to the point where I'll completely forsake the first pass.
- 18:26 – 29:20
Talking About a Pencil: The QVC Years
- TFTim Ferriss
So I want to flash back to a part of your history that I actually have not heard much about, uh, and that is QVC. Or was it Home Shopping?
- MRMike Rowe
QVC. Uh, but a distinction without a difference, sure.
- TFTim Ferriss
Distinction [laughs] without a difference. Just don't want to offend anyone at corporate if they might be listening. Uh-
- MRMike Rowe
That's it
- TFTim Ferriss
... Susan, Susan, Suzanne-
- MRMike Rowe
That's very kind of them. Of course
- TFTim Ferriss
... you know, you have to be sensitive about these things. Uh, how did you end up working at QVC?
- MRMike Rowe
Honestly, in the same way I, I got most of my jobs back in the day. I, uh, I lost a bet, and I crashed an audition. I was, um, I was singing. This was 1989, and I was in the Baltimore Opera, and, uh, it was during a performance of Die Ring des Nibelungen, I think, Wagner, "Interminable Dirge," and I was dressed as a Viking. And, um, I didn't need to be on stage, uh, for the intermission obviously, but then for an hour after, which meant I could walk across the street and watch the football game at the Mount Royal Tavern dressed as a Viking-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
... which of course I did. And, uh, [laughs] look, if you haven't, if you haven't had a couple of beers and sung Wagner, I heartily recommend it-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
... you know, especially if you can put on the, the Viking helmet. Anyway, I walked into the bar, and my buddy Rick was, uh, pouring the beer. Uh, but the game was not on. The Ravens were not playing. Uh, he instead was watching a, a, a fat guy in a shiny suit sell pots and pans.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
And I said, "Rick, what the hell are you doing?" And he said, "I'm auditioning for that guy's job tomorrow. QVC is in town, and they're having an open cattle call down at the, uh, at the Marriott, and I'm gonna go see if I can get an actual job." So I sat there dressed as a Viking drinking, uh, National Bohemian beer and arguing with Rick over the demise of Western civilization, and he bet me $100 I wouldn't get a call back if I accompanied him to the audition, which I did. And, uh, the next day... It's kind of a long answer to your question, but the next day I found-
- TFTim Ferriss
It's a long podcast. [laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
Oh, good. All right. Well, let me, uh, g- hit you with a little interpretive dance then.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
I, uh, so I wind up, uh, auditioning that next morning in a conference room at the, uh, Marriott Renaissance in Baltimore Inner Harbor, which is maybe the strangest audition of my life. But, uh, I didn't get a call back, but I, I got a job offer on the spot.
- TFTim Ferriss
W- okay. So what was the audition like? What was the audition process?
- MRMike Rowe
It was, uh, it was elegant in a way that I know you'll appreciate as a guy who values some measure of efficiency and effectiveness. Um, and it was elegance personified, uh, by a company who had abjectly failed to create, uh, a workable audition process. So it's 1989. Uh, uh, the home shopping industry is just the part of the map where it says, "Here be dragons," you know?
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
You can't, you can't hire an actor and expect him or her to know how to sell, and you can't really hire a salesman and expect him or her not to shit the bed when somebody says, "Action," right?
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
So, so it's a very weird set of muscles. And the way they determine, um, potential candidates in my case, uh, was they, they, they rolled a pencil across the desk while a camera was rolling. And the man said, "When I ask you to, I want you to pick up the pencil, and I want you to talk about it. And I want you to make me want it. I don't care how you make me want it. I don't care what you tell me to make me want it. I don't care if it's true or not. But I want you to harness whatever enthusiasm and passion you can muster for this number two pencil and do not stop talking until I tell you to." And, uh, I learned later that anybody who could do that for eight minutes was immediately hired and, um, put on a three-month probationary period where you were given enough rope to truly hang yourself from 3:00 to 6:00 AM every morning on live television. So anyway, that's how it happened. I talked about a pencil for eight minutes.
- TFTim Ferriss
Do you remember any, any particular feature or benefit that you focused on?
- MRMike Rowe
Well, it's interesting you use those words because if you're, if you're really trying to sell in a classic sense or kill time in a practical sense, there's no better approach than the feature benefit. So all the obvious things, you know, the, it's yellow. Now, that's a feature, and if you limit yourself to simply saying it's yellow, then you're gonna be out of time, you know, real fast. Why is, why is yellow important? Well, because you're a busy executive in the middle of a busy day, and when you need a pencil and open up that top drawer of your desk and gaze into it, you don't wanna play some sort of game with your receptors. You want a color that pops out there. You wanna know where, where that pencil is, and what better way to do it by this bright canary shade of yellow? And then of course, if you wanna take a little detour, right, you can talk about the exact hue of yellow, and then you can talk about where the paint came from or how the paint was mixed and where the paint was mixed. And you might even leave the viewer, uh, with an image of the person mixing the paint to create the exact shade of canary yellow. And then of course you can touch on the application process. And before long, you've talked yourself into this endless tautology just about the, the color of the pencil.
- TFTim Ferriss
It's a New Yorker piece.
- MRMike Rowe
It could be.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
It could be. Sure.
- 29:20 – 42:51
Freelancing, American Airlines and the Magic D3
- TFTim Ferriss
When did... And we were, we were sitting down chatting before we started recording. When did American Airlines fit into your chronology?
- MRMike Rowe
Oh, God. Well, [clears throat] in 1993, I was fired for the third time from QVC.
- TFTim Ferriss
So hold on. [laughs] I have to pause. So fired for the third time. Does that mean they fired you and then begged for you to come back, or that you negotiated?
- MRMike Rowe
I wouldn't say they begged. Uh, each situation was different. Um, I spent... Wh- when I was fired the first time, I was only, I had only been there about two months. And I stayed on a kind of a, oh, what'd they call it in Animal House? Double secret probation-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
... for the next three years. Because remember, you know, the, th- for me, the products were there to be made fun of. Um, and the callers were there to, um, [laughs] to help me. I didn't see them as customers. My first night on the air, I picked up the Amcor Negative Ion Generator, and I looked into the camera and I said, "Look, this is item," uh, what was it? Like, E1410. Now, at the time, there were also items like E28960. So, like- E1410 meant that thing had been there from day one. W- we'd been selling it for years. I'd never seen it before, and I didn't know what it did. I looked into the camera and said, "If one of you people at home, and I'm talking to you, you narcoleptic, lonely heart, right now, it's 3:30 in the morning. You. You know who you are. You're watching me sit here about to go up in flames because I have no idea what the hell this thing is. Could you please call in so my producer can put you on the air so you can tell me how this works?"
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
You know, I swear to God I did that, and I got overwhelmed with phone calls.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
Hundreds of people, which at 3:30 in the morning is saying something, hundreds of people called in to tell me how to do my job-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
... on live TV. And it was, um, it was awesome.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- MRMike Rowe
It was just-
- TFTim Ferriss
It sounds incredible.
- MRMike Rowe
It was great.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- MRMike Rowe
I mean, it was, it was the... I mean, I would look out at the producer, who was sound asleep, right?
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
I mean, I, I'm sound asleep.
- TFTim Ferriss
Just a dead... Just silence in the earbud.
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah, I swear to God. [laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
You're, like-
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah
- TFTim Ferriss
... trying to fit his name into your dialogue so he wakes up, like Meow with Super Troopers? Okay.
- MRMike Rowe
He, he, he didn't have his earbud in.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
His, his feet are up. He, he, he had fallen asleep doing a sudoku, like, 20 minutes earlier, and he had the thick trails-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
... of saliva coming out of his mouth and going all the way down to his chest. And I was utterly alone on stage, save for these product coordinators who would bring me this never-ending chain of dreck that had failed to sell in prime time, you know? And that's what it was, three hours a night. So the viewers became my, um... They were never customers to me. They were this good-natured but slightly dangerous group of people, kind of like a Greek chorus, you know, who would call in and instruct me and, and I'd mess with them, and they'd mess with me. And occasionally the calls would become utterly obscene, and then things would really go off the rails, you know? But I, I mean, honestly, Tim, I, we could talk about this for days. It was, it was utterly, uh, transformational. And I'd never been on TV before, ever. I'd never had a job in broadcasting before. And suddenly it's 3:00 in the morning, I'm on live television, people I don't know are bringing me things I can't describe, and I'm completely reliant upon the viewer to get me through the shift.
- 42:51 – 52:27
Hubris, His Grandfather, and the Birth of Dirty Jobs
- TFTim Ferriss
So when did that hubris lead to a reckoning? You know, when did Icarus get too close to the sun? Or what was the... When did that change, and why did it change?
- MRMike Rowe
I don't know why. Uh, I mean, I could theorize. Uh, but it happened when, um, when my grandfather got sick. He was 92, and, um, built the house. The guy could build a house without a blueprint. You know, the guy could take my watch apart right now, blindfolded, and put it back together. He had the chip, the chip of knowing, I used to call it, you know? Uh, he only went to the seventh grade, but he was a, a master electrician by the time he was 30, uh, a plumber, uh, a mason, a mechanic, welder, whatever. And, um, I idolized him. By 19... Uh, sorry, by 2001, I was working here in San Francisco, impersonating a host over at, uh, Evening Magazine, uh, working really for CBS News in that capacity. And, um, my mother called me to tell me my grandfather was fading, and I hung up thinking, "You know, Goddammit, I never did anything on television that he would look at and recognize as work." You know? I mean, he loved me, and he was proud of me, and vice versa, but I never... You know, he... Imagine the guy I just described seeing his grandson singing opera, selling things in the middle of the night on QVC, flying around the country doing a bullshit TV show for no reason other than mercenary, you know? A- and i- it just, for him, a guy who built things, repaired things, fixed things, I was just, uh, from another universe. So I thought before he goes, it would be nice to do something on TV that looked like work. And that really started a conversation with my boss about a segment that was called Somebody's Got To Do It. That segment ultimately took place in construction sites and, and, and factory floors. The first one was me in the sewers of San Francisco, hosting a show called Evening Magazine, you know? Uh, it was a, it was a hugely important moment because it, it nearly got me fired. It did get my boss fired. Um, uh, he was g- really early retirement anyway, but you know, you know Evening Magazine, right?
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- MRMike Rowe
You know, it's 7:00 here in the Bay Area, and you sit down for another heartwarming story about a three-legged dog-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
... in Marin who's overcome some sort of canine kidney failure.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
And, uh, and you get me crawling through a river of shit, you know, with a sewer inspector.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
You know, covered in the worst excrement there is, with rats and roaches, and it was great.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
You know, and it was horrible. And, and half the people who called, called to congratulate me, and the other half called demanding my, my head, which of course is exactly what you want in TV. And so even though, um, it didn't work ultimately on Evening Magazine, I did 20 of those segments, cobbled them together, and, uh, ultimately sold them to the Discovery Channel, and that became Dirty Jobs. But it all happened fundamentally because I wanted to, I wanted to put something on TV that wouldn't cause my grandfather to throw his crumpled-up National Bohemian beer can at the screen.
- TFTim Ferriss
And, uh, i- if, uh, if this is not something you can talk about or don't wanna talk about, that's totally fine, but I'm so curious. When you sold those shows to Discovery, were you able to negotiate back the rights, or did you have them in the first place, or how did that work?
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah, I'm, I'm kinda, uh, simplifying and overstating a little bit. I, I took Dirty Jobs everywhere and heard no in as many ways as a person can hear no. You know? It's, uh, it was too gross for CBS, not gross enough for Fox, too funny for PBS, not funny enough for Comedy Central. I mean, round and round we went. And I eventually, uh, showed the pilot to a guy named Craig Piligian, who runs Pilgrim Films and, and Television, and he actually owed me a favor, I think, because a couple years earlier, I hosted a complete abortion called Worst Case Scenario-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
... which aired on, uh, TBS. And, uh, he produced it, and I hosted it. And he said, "Look, if I can ever help you," you know. So I, I gave him this pilot. It basically was, it was a pilot of me collecting semen from a bull called Hunsucker Commando.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
And, uh, and he showed this to, uh, Discovery, and Discovery was like, "Look, that's weird. Uh, it'll never work, but let's talk to that guy," uh, not even knowing that they had hired me 10 years earlier in 1993 to host a show called Romantic Escapes, which turned out to be neither. But anyway, uh, I often say, you know, f- Romantic Escapes was me and a, and a pretty girl going around the world creating the illusion of romance in five-star hotels. From there, I worked my way up to the sewer-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
... and finally got a career started.
- TFTim Ferriss
So this gent that you mentioned, how did he then return the favor? D-
- MRMike Rowe
He took the pilot I shot to Discovery, and he showed it to them, and that opened a conversation about me becoming the Discovery guy. So I made a deal with Discovery to narrate, um, their tentpole specials and to become a kind of, uh, de facto avatar. My whole pitch to Discovery was, "You don't need another host, and your network doesn't need another expert. The world's full of them. You, you need a fan." You need a fan of your brand. You need a curious cat to go out in the world and look under the rock with a, with a crew that leaves a light footprint just to ask the kinds of questions I would ask if I were watching TV with my friend from home. That's what you need. They bought that idea. I said, "Can we do Dirty Jobs?" And they said, "God, no."
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
And I said, "Why not?" And we had this whole conversation about brand and off-brand and everything else. And eventually they just said, "Look, we'll, we'll take three hours of it just to put it on to kind of introduce you. But what we really want you to do is dive, uh, in a submersible with James Cameron and go to the Titanic, and then we want you and Zahi Hawass to explore, um, uh, sarcophagi in the largest cemetery recently discovered in North Africa. And then..." You know, all these cool expeditions. Well, they put Dirty Jobs on the air, and we got 10,000 letters the first month, and that was that. But to answer your question, no, I don't own Dirty Jobs. Um, I own me, and thankfully, uh, Dirty Jobs with Mike Rowe became this thing that ultimately launched, I think, 30, 31 other shows.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- MRMike Rowe
And so I was able, uh, with the help of my partner, a brilliant woman called Mary Sullivan, uh, we were able to take the basic DNA of the show, the basic guts of it that were frankly inspired by my granddad, and turn that into a nonprofit foundation called mikeroweWORKS and turn that into a completely separate business. And so while the show was on the air, I was able to start filtering a lot of other opportunities through this other entity. But sorry, I'm free associating this-
- TFTim Ferriss
No, no, no. I enjoy this. I'm taking notes so I can, I can reassociate.
- MRMike Rowe
I'm gonna circle back.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- MRMike Rowe
Um, the, the answer to your first question was it happened through some weird mix of serendipity, me Forrest Gumping my way once again into this, um, th- this weird area, and, and being called on my own bullshit, honestly. You know? I had been making fun of TV, and suddenly I'm doing a show where I'm getting thousands of letters from people who are genuinely grateful to see their job, to see their vocation, uh, presented not as a punchline, uh, but, but as an honest way to, to make a decent living. And so we, we touched on something that was really real and, you know, remember too, in, in 2003, there's no, uh, there's no Deadliest Catch, Ax Men, Ice Road Truckers. There's no Gold Rush. There's no, there's no work on television. So it was, it was a very, very... I understand why Discovery was, you know, tiptoeing around this thing. You know? This was the, the province of Cousteau and, uh, and, and David Attenborough. And now, you know, a smart aleck covered with other people's crap is making dick jokes in a sewer. You know? That, that was scary.
- 52:27 – 57:12
Pitching Discovery and Embracing Transparent Ignorance
- TFTim Ferriss
So you are very good at crafting a compelling pitch. And I've, I've witnessed this in, in, in many different capacities. But to go back to one of the stories you just told about pitching Discovery Channel. You, you have this. You have this. You don't need more of this. This is what I'm proposing. And getting that deal done, how did you plan that meeting, or did you walk in and free associate?
- MRMike Rowe
Uh, a little of both. Um, when I was... I think it was 1986, I guess. So I'd been out of college a couple of years. I was, uh, flicking around. And in those days, when you flicked around, you, you got up and walked over to the TV and turned the dial [laughs] . You know?
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- MRMike Rowe
So I'm flicking around and, uh, and I saw a documentary on the Discovery Channel, and I... This was the first time I'd seen it. And I was utterly enamored of, of the brand, the idea, the notion, the idea of satisfying curiosity. Just, I j- I, I said, "I'm, I'm gonna work for these guys one day." Um, and so that, that was the first thing in the back of my mind. And as a viewer from '86 until 2002, um, I was with them all the time, and Nat Geo and, you know, all the usual suspects. But, but I love Discovery, and I love the story of John Hendricks, the, one of the greatest entrepreneurs who ever lived.
- TFTim Ferriss
That was the founder of Discovery Channel?
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah. Yeah, his story is, is amazing. You would love, you would love his book, A Curious Mind.
- TFTim Ferriss
Ooh, I'll look it up. Yeah.
- MRMike Rowe
And, um, anyway, I, I just always wanted to not just work for them, um, I wanted to work with them somehow. And, um, again, I, I didn't know how I could possibly do it because it was a landscape populated completely by experts. And you know, you and I are different in the sense that you, you, I think, get, get comfort and, um, and meaning from mastering a thing. I get anxious by the prospect of mastering a thing. And, and so as a viewer and as a host, you know, I, uh, I, I had always been a little fraudulent. You know? I tried to be transparent about it, but, but I always felt a little icky, you know, memorizing a bunch of things, uh, the night before and then pretending to have always known them. I used to call it the, uh The plaque phenomenon. You know, you walk up to a statue, and there's always a plaque on it. And you read the information on the plaque, and suddenly you get a snapshot of the biography of whoever the guy is. Well, for years, you know, everything I did on TV was based on information gleaned from a plaque moments before someone said, "Action." And, um, and I, I didn't wanna do that on Discovery because I knew they, they were hiring people who were, who were genuine. Uh, so the question became, how can I be genuine and authentic and still embrace my inner ignorance? [laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
And of course, the only way to do it is to be aggressively transparent.
- TFTim Ferriss
So I just want just to pause for one second. I think that what you just said can be translated to so many people in so many worlds.
- MRMike Rowe
Mm.
- TFTim Ferriss
I just think who are, who are suffering from some type of existential malaise or career impasse, I don't know, it strikes me as-
- MRMike Rowe
Well, look, it's-
- TFTim Ferriss
... very good advice.
- MRMike Rowe
I just don't think there's a... I'm suspicious of playbooks-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah
- MRMike Rowe
... because once you write down the thing, then it becomes, uh, dogma. And pretty soon it's morals and dogma, and pretty soon you're Alfred Pike, and it's the Masons, and now there's a secret handshake, and oh my God, this is the way you're supposed to do it. I, I was so certain for so long that I had cracked my own little Rosetta Stone, and then I became so utterly humbled by the fact that I, I... I'm not even gonna say I was wrong. I just realized I couldn't spend the rest of my career with so much contempt for the, the very industry upon which I relied, you know? And so I just, it, I just wore myself out being glib, and then it was suddenly time to be, uh, something else. You know, I'm, I'm wary of earnestness in and of itself, but, but I wanted to be a- authentic. And the only way I could do that on the Discovery Channel was as a fan with access.
- 57:12 – 1:02:57
Creative Constraints, Antagonists and the Ford Campaign
- TFTim Ferriss
We were talking, before we started recording, about creative process just a little bit and the, the trap and the temptation of the blank page and parameters, creative constraints. You mentioned, uh, maybe one example, correct me if I'm wrong, but that is focusing on the first take.
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
And what other constraints or parameters have you used for yourself in your various projects?
- MRMike Rowe
That's a great question, man. I, because I, I used to be enamored of the idea that I can do anything I want. I mean, it's kinda like owning a business, right? If you ask the average person, "Hey, would you like to own, own your own business?" The average person says, "Yes." And then a year later, the average person doesn't have their business anymore. You know? Creatively, it's not so different. I think, I think it's, it's, it's very Roman. You know, what good's a protagonist without an antagonist? What, what good is a story, you know, without all these zigs and zags? The blank page is, is very scary to me because there's no antagonist on it, you know? And it forces me to be both. Um, for all of the grief, uh, and derision I've leveled toward QVC, um, they did me a huge solid because if you were a viewer in, in, uh, 1990, you could turn on QVC any day of the year, any time of the day, and while you might see different people, you would see the exact same process. You would see, uh, parameters. You would see graphics that are utterly predictable. You would see rigor. You would see all, all that stuff that I used to think I hated was actually the very thing that allowed me to be such an anarchist. And in truth, I really wasn't. But when you have that much rigor around you, all you have to do is put one toe over the line, and you look like a complete malcontent, a lunatic. You know? You really stand out. It made it so much easier. I didn't do anything all that, uh, subversive in hindsight. It just looked that way because I had such clear parameters. And, um, really when I look back at every other, uh, good thing that I think I've done, it's always been because there's an antagonist in the room.
- TFTim Ferriss
What would be, uh, could you give an example of f- of a, of a good antagonist looking back?
- MRMike Rowe
Well, aside from QVC, Discovery. You know? Again, because they had so firmly, um, entrenched in their viewers' mind a set of expectations. When I came along as the non-expert, just, you know, going around the country, looking under the rock, it was... It's, it seems so obvious now.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- MRMike Rowe
And I, and I, I'm not saying this 'cause I'm taking, because I wanna take credit for it. I just mean, wow, one of these things is not like the other, and all of a sudden I got a lot of attention.
- TFTim Ferriss
I got it.
- MRMike Rowe
Not 'cause I was good, 'cause I was different.
- TFTim Ferriss
Because you were able to contrast against the expectations that had already been set.
- MRMike Rowe
I'll tell you where it was even bigger than both those two combined: Ford. Ford hired me in, uh, I don't know, whenever it was, 2006. And I did a, I did a commercial for them for the Super Bowl. It was a truck commercial. Uh, it took a day and a half to shoot, and it was 30 seconds long. It involved a giant centrifuge hooked up to the bumper of a truck, and we dug a giant pit And the centrifuge spun the truck like a giant carnival ride, and I stood right next to it talking very heroically about the, uh, about the construction and the reliability and the durability of the truck. And I wore a, a shearling jacket, and my hair had product in it, and I had makeup on. And I hit my mark, and I said my line, and I hated it. The commercial did fine, but I hated it. And that opened a dialogue with Ford and, um, and their agency, and it took about a year and a half, but my basic pitch was the same thing it always is. I said, "You guys, [laughs] if you guys wanna put some dude in a shearling jacket and let him hit a mark and say a line, there's a long list of guys who can do that better than I can. But if you wanna shoot quickly, and if you wanna make your customers the hero of your brand, let's experiment because I think you can take the, the same, uh, DNA from Dirty Jobs, and I think you can shoot it straight into an advertising campaign." And, um, to the credit of the ad agency, we eventually got around to doing it. And a year and a half later, in the course of one day, we shot 22 commercials.
- TFTim Ferriss
Wow.
- MRMike Rowe
And it worked. The campaign became something called Swap Your Ride. There was one called [laughs] Spread the Word. There was... There were all these different campaigns that relied not upon storyboards or scripts, but real people. And all I did was get out of the way and just have conversations with people. Um, go figure.
- TFTim Ferriss
You have... So I, we have, uh, a, uh, sort of a mutual acquaintance who I, I tried to mine for questions that he would like to hear you ask.
- MRMike Rowe
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
And, uh,
- 1:02:57 – 1:11:22
Follow Your Passion, Bring It With You
- TFTim Ferriss
one was, "He," meaning Mike, "talks about pursuing opportunity and not your passion," in parentheses, "which I agree with, by the way." Uh, and then there, there's a follow-up to that. But could, could you... If that is true, could you elaborate on, on that?
- MRMike Rowe
Sure. Um, one of the best things to come out of Dirty Jobs after we did a couple hundred of them was a l- a new level of permission from the network to basically do whatever I wanted. And what I wanted to do, uh, on occasion, was look back and try and glean some lessons from the dirt. I wanted to take some of the many experiences we had from the show and make a case for what I called, uh, alternative platitudes. I've always railed against those bromides that hang in paneled conference rooms-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
... that have pictures of guys in, like, kayaks-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
... or, you know, rainbows.
- TFTim Ferriss
Or eagles.
- MRMike Rowe
Eagles soaring.
- TFTim Ferriss
A lot of eagles.
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah. And, you know, teamwork, and then some, some thing about teamwork. Or, you know, determination or persistence. Um, that's what I meant before when I said I'm, I'm wary of earnestness. You know, I think it's so easy to serve up a, a good idea but then choke on the sacronicity of it, if there is such a word. The thing that chap my ass more than any of them-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
... was follow your passion. I remember seeing one of these platitudes. What were they? Successories, they call them, right?
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. [laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
Right? It, it was, it, it was a rainbow. There might have been a unicorn in it. Uh, butterflies, uh, happy people, uh, and it said, "Follow your passion." And, um, you know, I took the position on Dirty Jobs that so many of the people I met, who at a, at a glance were not enviable in any way, but in fact seemed to be better balanced and happier than most of the people I knew in real life, I began to ask myself, "What in the world do these people know that, that the rest of us don't?" Regarding passion, I started asking around, and I heard the same thing from everyone. The, the happiest people I met, the people who were most passionate about their work, were people who looked around, uh, watched where everyone was going, and simply went the opposite direction. That's how Les Swanson from Wisconsin wound up with three honey wagons. A former, uh, psychologist and guidance counselor is now sucking the shit out of people's septic tanks full time. He's in his 60s. He loves his work. He can work whenever he wants. I'm having this conversation with Les Swanson, and he's saying, "Look, this is not my wish fulfillment except for the fact that I love what I do, and I'm very good at it." And my question to him was, "Well, which one of those came first?" And he said, "Neither. What came first was the fact that nobody was doing this. What came second was my own hard-headed commitment to be very good at it. And then I did the thing that is the hardest thing to do, and that is figure out how to love something that you didn't think you did."
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm.
- MRMike Rowe
So all, so always follow your passion, for me, became never follow your passion, but always bring it with you.
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm. So that, I remember I was told... So, so we live in an area, you know, Northern California, where you have a lot of very wealthy and simultaneously very miserable people.
- MRMike Rowe
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
It is... And this is not unique to the Bay Area.
- MRMike Rowe
Ah.
- TFTim Ferriss
And there are certainly happy wealthy people. But the money, much like alcohol for some people, seems to exaggerate who they were already-
- MRMike Rowe
Sure
- TFTim Ferriss
... if that makes sense. And-
- MRMike Rowe
Cocaine makes you more of who you are.
- TFTim Ferriss
There you go. And I remember being told at one point, "If you can't be happy with what you have, nothing you ever get w- will make you happy."
- MRMike Rowe
Mm-hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
And so that's that observation by Les of br- bringing passion to what you do or learning to do that if you don't have it seems to be Extremely, extremely, uh, important lesson to put into practice with whether it's... I mean, I personally use journaling in the morning and trying to practice gratitude because historically I haven't been good at it-
- MRMike Rowe
Mm-hmm
- TFTim Ferriss
... to be quite frank. I mean, very focused-
- MRMike Rowe
No one's historically good at gratitude.
- 1:11:22 – 1:24:16
Vocabulary, Books and Recommendations
- TFTim Ferriss
you have an incredibly, I don't know what that Kermit the Frog, like, inflection was [laughs] that just came out.
- MRMike Rowe
I like it. You know, it's very authentic, Tim.
- TFTim Ferriss
You have, uh, a [laughs] very-
- MRMike Rowe
Don't you cut that out
- TFTim Ferriss
... No, that's gonna stay in. That's probably the highlight of the podcast from my perf- my side of the performance. Uh, a very impressive vocabulary. Uh, where did that come from?
- MRMike Rowe
Um, uh, although I don't read as much now as I used to, I used to read a lot. And I, um, I think reading, but I also think weirdly, um, plays. You know? I, I, I did a lot of plays when I was a kid and, um, and I just think there's something really elegant, uh, and maybe indulgent about finding a different way to say a thing. Um, and so I think often in an attempt to turn a phrase, I'll play with the language a lot and stumble across words that I wouldn't otherwise use. And so, look, I mean, it's, uh, I've read Elmore Leonard and Hemingway, and I understand how important it is to be simple and brief. I really do. In fact, that's probably the most important thing, which is why I think it's a little indulgent to go the other way, but I do just because it, it pleases me. I think, I think the lexicon is extraordinary, and I, you know, sometimes pass the salt is the simplest thing you can say if you would like somebody to hand you the salt. But it's also fun to ask them to, uh, you know, slide the white crystals in your general direction with all due speed.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs] I feel like every third turn of phrase that you've had in this conversation could be either a great punk rock band-
- MRMike Rowe
Hmm
- TFTim Ferriss
... like Tails and Testicles.
- MRMike Rowe
Exactly
- TFTim Ferriss
... a restaurant in the Castro, or, and for those people who are gonna get all social justice warrior with me-
- MRMike Rowe
Uh
- TFTim Ferriss
... go to the Castro first. There's the Squat & Gobble, there's Little Orphan Andy's, like, there's, there's a theme in, there's a theme here with the naming. Uh, the, do you have any books that you've gifted to other people more than others?
- MRMike Rowe
Oh, God, that's great, too. Um, I, I tend to recommend, uh, whatever I'm reading just because it's obviously in the, uh, you know, random access memory. But, but the book I've given most frequently is actually, I, I mentioned it earlier, um, John D. MacDonald.
- TFTim Ferriss
Curious Mind. No.
- MRMike Rowe
No.
- TFTim Ferriss
Oh.
- MRMike Rowe
That's a good one. That's, uh, John Hendricks. But John D. MacDonald wrote the best pulp fiction that I've ever read. I'm a big fan of fiction, by the way, and I know looking around here, I have a lot of the same nonfiction books that you do. Um, my-
- TFTim Ferriss
Which one, which ones?
- MRMike Rowe
Uh, I just made that up. I can't read any of these titles.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
But, but judging from the color over there. [laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
What, what does that say? The Magic of Thinking Big? No.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, that's-
- MRMike Rowe
I, I don't have that one
- TFTim Ferriss
... that's, that's Schwartz. We've got Dune. We have-
- MRMike Rowe
I still have Dune
- TFTim Ferriss
... we have Zorba the Greek. We have-
- MRMike Rowe
I've got Zorba the Greek
- 1:24:16 – 1:31:33
Great Voices and Narrators
- TFTim Ferriss
So I mentioned Neil Gaiman as, as a fantastic narrator. What speakers or narrators, voiceover folks, anything involving voice, really have blown you away, alive or dead? Just where you're like, "God, how do they do that?"
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah. I, I'm, I'm most impressed n- nowadays by the guys, and the women, but mostly men. You know, the men are dominant in the business, and it's the ones who can hide. It's the ones who, who really don't get in the way of the story itself, you know? And it's really a balancing act. Um, y- most of the stuff I narrate now has a, has a level of spectacle to it, so I get to, you know, I get to butch it up a little bit, you know? And it, and it works for Deadliest Catch and some, and some other shows. But How the Universe Works, for instance, which I've been doing for five years now, it's a totally different proposition. Uh, Morgan Freeman has one of the most wonderful, recognizable voices ever, but it's impossible to listen to a show and not constantly know you're listening to Morgan Freeman.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right.
- MRMike Rowe
Um, likewise James Earl Jones You got a guy though like, um, uh, Peter Coyote narrates, uh, as much or more than anyone, and he has a really interesting, uh, way of being flat and, uh, engaged at the same time. Uh, you watch, uh, Donovan? Uh, now is it Do- Ray, Ray Donovan?
- TFTim Ferriss
Ray Donovan on-
- MRMike Rowe
That's it
- TFTim Ferriss
... Show- Showtime, I think.
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- MRMike Rowe
What's his name? I'm drawing a blank. Uh, uh, who-
- TFTim Ferriss
Talking about the actor?
- MRMike Rowe
Liv.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, Liev Schreiber.
- MRMike Rowe
Him.
- TFTim Ferriss
I think that's the right-
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah
- TFTim Ferriss
... pronunciation.
- MRMike Rowe
It's him.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- MRMike Rowe
It's him. He, uh, is, is a wonderful narrator. We were up for the same big project a couple years ago.
- TFTim Ferriss
I had no idea.
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah. Son of a-
- TFTim Ferriss
Huh
- MRMike Rowe
... bitch got it and I didn't. Heartbreaking. Um, but, you know, the... Honestly, the best ones, you don't know their names.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right.
- MRMike Rowe
And that's, that's part of the deal. I'm, I'm very lucky because I've used what little notoriety I have to just relentlessly leverage my way into that space because I just love doing it so much, but, um, but the really great narrators are, are utterly anonymous and transparent.
- TFTim Ferriss
If you had to, uh, pick any particular female voice performer, and I... And by voice performer it could be a singer, could be, could be an actor or actress who uses their voice very effectively, voiceover, anything. Uh, anyone come to mind?
- MRMike Rowe
Do you remember Hidden Valley Ranch-
- TFTim Ferriss
I do
- MRMike Rowe
... salad dressing?
- 1:31:33 – 1:39:28
Hard Work, Telling Your Own Story and Peripeteia
- TFTim Ferriss
I'm not trying hard enough, Mike. And you know, I think that people might think we're- We're further apart than we are on the trying hard part, um, which is, it... And I read an interview with you recently about sort of working smart, working hard-
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah
- TFTim Ferriss
... and the, the false dichotomy between the two where people choose one or the other.
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
And, uh, you know, it's the, the blessing and the curse of having a book with a title like The 4-Hour Workweek-
- MRMike Rowe
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
... is that people never seem to forget it, and that people never seem to forget it. So, uh, th- but the, the fact of the matter is I, I have absolutely no problem with hard work as long as it's applied to the right things.
- MRMike Rowe
Sure.
- TFTim Ferriss
And, uh, the operative portion of that being focusing it in the right place. And you know, another thing that you mentioned earlier when we were talking about passion versus opportunity that at least I've observed a few times in friends who've made this decision and then ended up having to reverse it in some way later is when you follow just your passion and not the opportunity, it's also a great way to corrupt something that gives you a great degree of personal pleasure-
- MRMike Rowe
Mm
- TFTim Ferriss
... and decompression.
- MRMike Rowe
Oh, turning your, uh, avocation into your vocation.
- TFTim Ferriss
Exactly.
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
So friend... I've had friends, for instance, who've decided they love surfing on Sunday mornings so much that they want to do it full time, and then they end up teaching, you know, finance wonks how to surf at 7:00-
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah
- TFTim Ferriss
... 6:00 in the morning, Monday to Friday, and before you know it, two months later, they want to never surf again.
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah. You bitched up your hobby.
- TFTim Ferriss
Exactly. Uh, so, so here is a question. We're gonna, we're gonna back into some, some of your current projects here. Uh, if you were doing a five-minute podcast story and the secret reveal were Mike Rowe, how would that podca- how would that episode begin, and where would the story take its major turn or turns?
- MRMike Rowe
Wow. Well, I mean, the key to what Paul Harvey did, uh, was find an obscure, uh, moment in the life of a famous person and then try and make that moment, uh, uh, relevant, and it almost always is. You know, sometimes it's a bigger stretch than others. But if it were, you know, I, I [laughs] I mean, given all that we've just talked about, um, you know, I would, I would probably circle back to, um, you know, the home shopping salesman who somehow or other became, uh, closely associated with, uh, well, a, a blue collar apologist, you know, or an opera singer who took a very, very crooked path and, uh, you know, wound up becoming, um, a purveyor of podcasts. I mean, who knows? I, I guess, I guess I don't know how to tell my story.
- TFTim Ferriss
Do you think that is common among people who are exceptionally good at telling other people's stories? Because I listened to, for instance, an episode of Here's The Thing with Alec Baldwin, and he was interviewing Ira Glass.
- MRMike Rowe
Mm-hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
And it was a really difficult interview for, uh, for Alec, and at one point he said, "You know, it's amazing how you can tell anyone's story except for your own." Now, you are good at telling your story, but, uh, do you find those tend to be somewhat exclusive, or what makes it hard for, for you to, uh, to think of how that might be formulated?
- MRMike Rowe
I don't know. I mean, look, there, there, there's something sociopathic about being great at telling your own story, I think.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
Um, I mean, it, it, it is-
- TFTim Ferriss
It's easy to forget living in Silicon Valley, that's like, that's the new norm.
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- MRMike Rowe
I, I, I just, I'm, uh, I just think that if you're good, if you're too good at it, it either means... Well, it probably just means you've been practicing it, you know?
- 1:39:28 – 1:50:08
The Way I Heard It and the Bruno Mars Story
- TFTim Ferriss
why did... Of all of the creative outlets and opportunities that you have, why did you choose podcasting? And maybe you could just give people an overview of what you're currently doing, but I'd love to know why.
- MRMike Rowe
Well, look, I'm always late to the party, uh, social media or otherwise. Um, and I, I don't think what I'm doing right now... Maybe I just don't know what podcast means, but what we're doing right now I think is, is about as honest an example of two people having an unscripted conversation that's touching on a lot of interesting things. I love that. But I don't... And I would love to, I would love to do what you're doing. You know, I'd love to have people over to my home and have these conversations and have a glass of wine. I mean, my God, how, if, if, if you're actually making money and prospering from this, Tim, you win.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
Um, at the moment I can't do it, but I'm still scratching this...
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
I'm watching your adorable dog, Molly, having a dream-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
... and slapping her tail into your hardwood floor.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
You should actually get some clean audio on that-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
... 'cause that's, that's just remarkable.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs] Yeah, it sounded... I was gonna who's knocking on the door.
- MRMike Rowe
I did too.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, that was great.
- MRMike Rowe
Man, what, what do you think she's dreaming about?
- TFTim Ferriss
I would say chasing birds is her ultimate most just, uh, savored, enjoyed experience in life, I think. So probably chasing birds.
- MRMike Rowe
She ever catch them?
- TFTim Ferriss
I, she is not... I haven't seen a successful kill yet.
- MRMike Rowe
Hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
But she's getting more and more athletic, uh, as she grows. So I, I think if it were maybe, uh, one of these sort of hard-hitting urban pigeons with like a club foot-
- MRMike Rowe
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
... she might get it. She m-
- MRMike Rowe
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
She might. It-
- MRMike Rowe
And Tourette's
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, and Tourette's.
- MRMike Rowe
And a cleft palate.
- TFTim Ferriss
But it would have to be, uh, it, like a Planet Earth moment where they're like, you know, "The wolves have isolated a calf." It-
- MRMike Rowe
You know what? If that happens, call me.
- 1:50:08 – 2:09:09
Billboards, Work Ethic Scholarships and Rethinking College
- TFTim Ferriss
When you think of the word success or successful, who's the first person who comes to mind, and why?
- MRMike Rowe
Carl Noble, my granddad, for reasons we touched on before. But a seventh grade education, drops out of school to work, becomes a master craftsman and a tradesman four times over, five times over, and, uh, lives to build houses and churches without blueprints that are still standing. Um, he was the guy who said to me when, when I flunked out of all my shop classes in high school, he said, uh, "You can be a tradesman. Just get yourself a different toolbox."
- TFTim Ferriss
Ooh, I like that.
- MRMike Rowe
That was a good one.
- TFTim Ferriss
That is a really good one.
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
So, uh, this is out of my usual order, but since, since [laughs] we had a little chat about it earlier and I, and I, I don't know the story, but I, I wanted to bring it up. If you could have a billboard anywhere with anything on it, what would it say?
- MRMike Rowe
And the reason that question is so crazy in my world right now is I got a call about four months ago from a guy who said, "Mike, you don't know me, but if you could have a billboard anywhere you want, what would it say?" And I said, "What, what am I, like inside the Actor's Studio?"
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
Well, he, he's a big shot over at, uh-
- TFTim Ferriss
How did you get this number, sir? [laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
Honestly, that's exactly what I said. He goes, "Well, your people passed it on because they thought, you know, you would want to answer the question." Uh, he's a guy who worked for Lamar. Lamar Outdoor Advertising.
- TFTim Ferriss
Huge.
- MRMike Rowe
He's huge. This guy owns billboards. I mean, tens of thousands of them. And he said, "Listen, I'm a big fan of your foundation, and at any given time, I got 20, 30% billboards that are empty. You know, advertisers do their thing, we pull them down." And n- every single person listening to this podcast right now has driven down the highway and looked up and seen a blank billboard. Well, he was just calling to say, "What would you like to put on them?" And I said, "Jesus, seriously?" And he said, "Yeah, anything you want." And I said, um, "Well, we're currently in the midst of a, uh, a work ethic scholarship program. Um, we've raised about $4 million selling crap out of my garage and various other places, uh, and we, you know, have this program, right?" And I, I said, "Uh, if I send you a picture of me holding a sign that says help wanted, uh, and a, a big, in big letters mikeroweworks.org Work Ethic Scholarships, would you put that up there?" And he said, "In a heartbeat." So all over, all over the country now, that's on a billboard-
- TFTim Ferriss
Wow. That's a hell of a-
- MRMike Rowe
... because somebody asked that question
- TFTim Ferriss
... that's a hell of a call.
- MRMike Rowe
It's a good call. I'm glad I took it.
- TFTim Ferriss
Now, could you, could you just elaborate for a second on, on the work ethic scholarships? What does that mean?
- MRMike Rowe
So, uh, in 2008 when the economy went sideways, Dirty Jobs was in 212 countries and, uh, the number one show on the network, and I was doing well, and everybody I talked to on the show that owned a business was sa- telling me an extraordinary thing, and that was, uh, the biggest challenge that they were facing was technical recruiting, really any kind of recruiting. Uh, help wanted signs everywhere I went on Dirty Jobs while the headlines are screaming about 10 and 11% unemployment. So I realized there was a huge, uh, parallel but conflicting narrative going on in the country with respect to work. And, um, the skills gap, as it existed in 2008, uh, included maybe 2.1, 2.2 million jobs that existed that people either weren't trained for or just simply didn't want. Today, the number is more like 5.8 million. I decided that it would be good for the show and good for me and hopefully good for the businesses that, uh, allowed us to, to, to thrive to set up a foundation that functioned as a PR campaign for jobs that actually existed. These are not the glamorous jobs, but these are jobs that make civilized life possible. Uh, and that PR campaign morphed into a bunch of trips to Congress and a bunch of partnerships with the Fortune 200, uh, and then ultimately into a, an attempt to reward the kind of behavior that we actually wanted to encourage, uh, which was work ethic. Most scholarship programs, as I'm sure you know, reward the usual stuff, academic achievement, um, athleticism, talent, and of course, basic need. Uh, I didn't think anybody was making an affirmative case for work ethic. So we look for kids. I'm less interested in your GPA. I'm more interested in your attendance record. I'm more interested in people who will make a case for themselves with respect to the reasons why I should pay for them to become a plumber or a welder or a steamfitter or a pipefitter or any of the jobs my, my granddad did intuitively, you know? Uh, that's what the foundation is, and it's been around since Labor Day of 2008, and, um, every six months we release, you know, another tranche of money raised mostly from our, uh, chronic low-rent telethon that really never seems to end. It involves me hawking the crap out of my garage, uh, mementos from Dirty Jobs in a style not unlike the old QVC days where I'm now using my, my powers for good. [laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
Your toolkit.
- MRMike Rowe
My toolkit, right?
- TFTim Ferriss
Uh, if, if you could have every, let's just say, high school graduate in the US, uh, read, watch, consume two or three things. You can sort of prescribe it, and every single kid coming out of high school would get these things. What would you, what would you prescribe?
- MRMike Rowe
Well, the first thing, I mean, w- and there is no bromide for all these kids, but in general, I think, I think we make a horrible mistake m- matriculating right out of high school right into college. I think it's a hell of a thing to ask a 17-year-old kid to declare a major, uh, borrow money. I mean, the pressure to, to borrow is m- mind-numbing. $1.3 trillion in student loans today. 5.8 million jobs nobody's trained for, a widening skills gap, and this increasing belief that somebody's moved our cheese, you know? 25% of millennials are living back home. It's... We're just doing it wrong. So I would... I, I think the general answer to your question is, I don't know about books or movies and things. They, those impact everybody differently. I would take a year and I would say, "Look, you gotta get a job." You have to do something. Call it an apprenticeship, call it an internship, call it a... I, I don't know, but we have to, we have to back away from the pressure that's, that's conspired to, to drive so many kids so far into debt and, and start to go down a road, uh, so soon. Because really, look, I always think there's time to change the road you're on, Robert Plant, last stanza, "Stairway to Heaven," but it's hard. And, you know, I was very lucky. I did it at 42, and I, I c-
- TFTim Ferriss
Meaning you took a... What did you do at 42? I apologize.
- MRMike Rowe
Well, I hit the reset button.
- TFTim Ferriss
Ah, got it. Yep.
- MRMike Rowe
You know? I, I decided this career, uh, that's been based on not caring about [chuckles] the work I do is going to be based on caring very much about it, and it just required a complete, you know, brain dump and reset button. Uh, it's hard to do that at 42, but it's, it's, it's even harder now, I think, at, at 26 because now you've got your paper, right? You've graduated. You've done well. You've done everything everybody told you to do, but you've just realized there's... the opportunity in the, in the field you've studied is not what you thought it was. The $90,000 in student loans is. That's not going away. And so it's, it's, it's just a terrible thing to have your coffee served to you by, you know, a double major in poli sci and medieval French. It's, th- it's, it's, it's, it's kinda tragic. Whatever we do, it, it has to happen between high school and this, and this period of declaration and this, this horrible assumption of mindless debt. Look, there's... W- when I say things like this, I always get criticism because people say, "Ah, he's, he's anti-college. He's anti-education." I'm not. I, I wouldn't trade my education for anything, and I challenge anybody who says there's any hope of success without it. But when people say, "How the hell can college get so expensive?" Man, the answer is right in front of us. We've been telling kids for 50 years the best path for the most people is in this direction, and here's an unlimited pile of money. Borrow as much as you need. Is it any wonder tuition has gone up faster than the cost of real estate, uh, food, energy, healthcare, and 500% of inflation over the last 40 years? It's, it's unprecedented. But we're still doing it, Tim. We are, we are lending money we don't have to kids who will never be able to pay it back to train them for jobs that don't exist anymore.
- TFTim Ferriss
I, uh, uh, when, when I think about this, and, uh, uh, I get asked quite a bit about college because I, I, I went to college, but, um, I have friends who very vociferously disagree with that being the right path for everyone, which I would agree with, so I get asked about it a lot. And I, I think what you suggest in terms of, you know, in the UK they would call it a gap year, right?
- MRMike Rowe
Yeah.
- 2:09:09 – 2:21:23
Drinking with Geniuses, Advice and Wrap-Up
- MRMike Rowe
Oh my God. Okay. So [laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
I just have to tell you, that, that is the story of my life. That, that, that's actually why, uh, I'm here today, and it's why I'm still in television. I'm working on a project now called Drinking with Geniuses, okay? It's just a-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
... title in my head, and I, and I, and I went ahead and locked it up because it sounds like a show or something. And it happened because... Do you remember a couple years ago when that, um, that meteorite came burning through the atmosphere in Russia?
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- MRMike Rowe
Right? So I don't know about you, but I'm watching this on TV, and the only question tearing through my mind is, "What the fuck was that? How the hell is this possible?" So I called an astrophysicist I knew over at Berkeley, and I said, "Hey, meet me over at Grumpy's." There's a little bar down in the financial district here in San Francisco. We sit down, get a couple of beers, and I look at him just like I'm looking at you right now, and I say, "What the hell just happened?"
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
And he said, "I know, right? You have lots of questions." I said, "I have so many questions. I mean, I get that meteorites are out there. I get that sooner or later one of them's gonna flip our switch, but how did we not see it coming? How did it get past the satellite net?" And for the next 20 minutes, he explained everything I needed to know about meteorites and satellites, right? Uh, i- interestingly, that same day I had narrated most of episode, uh, four of How the Universe Works. So I... It's on my mind. The beer is cold.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
The brain across the table is enormous.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
And I suddenly look around and say, "Why? Why aren't we recording this?"
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
You know? That's a show. But so is this.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- MRMike Rowe
You know? I mean-
- TFTim Ferriss
Alternate title, Cold Beers, Enormous Brands also.
- MRMike Rowe
Not bad.
- TFTim Ferriss
Not bad. [laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
Not bad at all.
- TFTim Ferriss
Well, I will be, I will be one of the first to listen. I like the... I love it. I love this idea. Uh, just one or two more questions. What advice would you give your 30-year-old self? And if you could place where you were at the time-
- MRMike Rowe
Mm
- TFTim Ferriss
... what you were doing.
- MRMike Rowe
Um, okay, not to be glib, but I, I, I don't, I don't believe I would advise myself in hindsight, only because, you know, you hate to tear a hole in the time-space continuum. You know, you step on the butterfly, the next thing you know, right, you know, the mastodons are, you know-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
... singing show tunes when you come back or something, crazy stuff. But I would, I would pull myself aside, um, i- in, in the very, very early days of... Actually, I was hired in QVC at the... I was 28. And when I was 30, I was on the verge of my own, I won't quite say a mental collapse, but I knew I couldn't do that anymore, and I was trying to figure out if I could go into the whole entertainment business and freelance in an effective way. And I... It gave me hives. I mean, I was really... I was scared, you know? If I could go back, I would have probably just pulled myself aside and said, "It's gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine." And then as sort of a side note, I would have said, "Stop wearing makeup on camera."
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- MRMike Rowe
"It just makes you look weird."
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs] Uh, for those people who would like to sample your podcast, and I encourage everyone to sample it because let's face it, you don't always wanna listen to three-hour podcasts, uh, and you might want some professional narration and storytelling, uh, which two episodes would you suggest they start with that are already out there?
Episode duration: 2:21:23
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Transcript of episode 2omFKcCmX-o
