Random Show — Fasting, Biohacking, and Tony Robbins | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)

1. 0:00 – 2:48

   Welcome Back to the Random Show and Kevin's Background

   1. TFTim Ferriss0:00

      Hello, boys and girls, Mogwai, and gremlins. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. If you're looking for perhaps some type of highbrow intellectual long-form conversation, you might want to go to tim.blog/podcast for one of my other long-form interviews.

   2. KRKevin Rose0:17

      Oh.

   3. TFTim Ferriss0:17

      [laughs]

   4. KRKevin Rose0:18

      Don't sell us short, dude.

   5. TFTim Ferriss0:19

      [laughs]

   6. KRKevin Rose0:19

      Come on.

   7. TFTim Ferriss0:21

      Hold on. Kevin, I haven't introduced you yet. [laughs] But for those of you who enjoy the, the random helter skelter ... Is that a right word?

   8. KRKevin Rose0:30

      I don't think so.

   9. TFTim Ferriss0:30

      Yeah, I think it is. Nature. Well, I'm gonna run with it. [laughs] Of the Random Show, which, uh, we haven't had an episode of for a very, very long time, and it's a conversation between yours truly and my good friend, uh, Kevin Rose.

   10. KRKevin Rose0:43

       Guest number one on The Tim Ferriss Show.

   11. TFTim Ferriss0:45

       That's true. You were guest number one, the very first episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, and-

   12. KRKevin Rose0:51

       Actually, that's in my LinkedIn bio now.

   13. TFTim Ferriss0:52

       [laughs]

   14. KRKevin Rose0:53

       It's, it's my claim to fame.

   15. TFTim Ferriss0:56

       It's in your Google+ bio.

   16. KRKevin Rose0:57

       That's right. [laughs]

   17. TFTim Ferriss0:58

       And [laughs] we have not done a Random Show for a long time, but I'll let you do, if you want to do, an introduction of The Random Show.

   18. KRKevin Rose1:05

       I don't think we even need to anymore.

   19. TFTim Ferriss1:06

       I don't think we need to.

   20. KRKevin Rose1:07

       We don't even know what episode we're on. Like, for those that of you that have heard The Random Show before, I think we've done probably, if I had to guess, I'd say maybe 25 episodes?

   21. TFTim Ferriss1:15

       Something like that, 25 to 50 episodes.

   22. KRKevin Rose1:16

       Yeah, something like that. So we're episode 27, let's call it.

   23. TFTim Ferriss1:20

       Episode 27, and Kevin, for people who don't know you, what's your story? What would you like people to know about you? What's the-

   24. KRKevin Rose1:26

       That's a good question

   25. TFTim Ferriss1:27

       ... the speaker bio version of Kevin Rose?

   26. KRKevin Rose1:29

       I don't even know these days. Uh, no, seriously, um, I would say that I've been a longtime internet entrepreneur. Um, I probably am best known for creating the social news website Digg back in 2004. Um, that grew to become a pretty big entity, um, for a number of years, and then I was at Google as an investor, and now I'm at True Ventures as an investor. Tim, you and I probably co-invested in maybe a dozen or so angel deals.

   27. TFTim Ferriss1:59

       Yeah, at least.

   28. KRKevin Rose2:00

       Um, Facebook together, I think Twitter together.

   29. TFTim Ferriss2:03

       Twitter together, Blue Bottle Coffee together.

   30. KRKevin Rose2:06

       Yeah. Yeah, a, a bunch of them.
2. 2:48 – 13:31

   Fast Mimicking Diet and Kevin's Cancer-Fasting Story

   1. TFTim Ferriss2:48

      I wanna hear about the fast mimicking diet because this is-

   2. KRKevin Rose2:52

      Yeah

   3. TFTim Ferriss2:52

      ... something I thought I, I would've put money on you never sticking with the fast mimicking diet, and maybe you can explain for people what that means.

   4. KRKevin Rose2:59

      Yeah.

   5. TFTim Ferriss2:59

      But you've actually now done a number of scheduled five-day?

   6. KRKevin Rose3:05

      Yeah, that's right.

   7. TFTim Ferriss3:05

      Fast mimicking diets.

   8. KRKevin Rose3:05

      It's five-day, uh, FMD. So, uh, well, I'll start back by saying that, uh, probably the reason why, Tim, you and I are friends, I met you when you were launching your first book-

   9. TFTim Ferriss3:14

      Mm-hmm

   10. KRKevin Rose3:14

       ... um, on your boat party that you did.

   11. TFTim Ferriss3:16

       That's right.

   12. KRKevin Rose3:16

       You rented out a warship in the, the San Francisco Bay, and, um-

   13. TFTim Ferriss3:20

       The SS Jeremiah, where they recorded a lot of the boiler room audio for the James Cameron movie Titanic, um-

   14. KRKevin Rose3:28

       Oh, crazy

   15. TFTim Ferriss3:29

       ... in fact. Mm-hmm.

   16. KRKevin Rose3:31

       That's awesome, but, um, yeah, well, I, we, we hit it off because we're, we both love all kinds of, of this idea of lifelong learning, I think has been a theme that you and I both enjoy, and, um, you know, I've certainly got really into biohacking in the last couple years. I've watched, uh, from afar, um, you poke and prod yourself and-

   17. TFTim Ferriss3:50

       [laughs]

   18. KRKevin Rose3:51

       ... squirt all kinds of different juices out of your elbow. [laughs]

   19. TFTim Ferriss3:55

       You know, I n- [laughs] this requires a little bit of explanation. So just ... This is so gross, all right? But, uh, now I have to explain it. So I had a botched PRP injection, which is platelet-rich plasma injection, in my right elbow, and people can look up PRP. It actually has some fantastic applications, but there was a botched injection which pushed effectively subcutaneous bacteria into the elbow capsule itself, and it turned into this horrible infection that required, uh, abridgment and surgery, and so on. But Kevin, uh, being the good friend that he is, came to visit me in the ER when I was having the, uh ... I'm not sure if you would call it synovial fluid, the infection fluid.

   20. KRKevin Rose4:37

       It was the pus drained out of your elbow, basically.

   21. TFTim Ferriss4:39

       The pus drained out of my elbow with this gigantic syringe, and, uh, being the mature adult that I am, I thought it would be funny to take this [laughs] turkey baster worth of elbow fluid out of the, [laughs] the sharps container and squirt it at Kevin, who was in the room. I'm not proud of it, but I don't regret it either. So yes.

   22. KRKevin Rose5:02

       Yeah, that was good.

   23. TFTim Ferriss5:02

       You've, you've seen me do a lot, uh, and make a lot of, uh, short-term decisions that haven't turned out very well in the world-

   24. KRKevin Rose5:09

       Yeah

   25. TFTim Ferriss5:09

       ... of biohacking.

   26. KRKevin Rose5:10

       It's always entertaining, though, gotta say. [laughs]

   27. TFTim Ferriss5:13

       [laughs]

   28. KRKevin Rose5:13

       Had a lot of fun doing stupid shit together. Um, but yeah, speaking of, of, well, probably not that dumb these days, but, uh, fasting. So I got into fasting, um, here probably about three years ago, two and a half, three years ago. Um, I started the Fasting App Zero, which is a, a free fasting tracker. Um, and so that, uh, has really kind of blown up and, and taken off. Um, but then I started hearing about, um, the research from Dalter, uh, Dr. Valter Longo, and so, um, we ... Actually, it was from a friend of mine. Uh, you know Mike Mazur, a mutual friend of ours.

   29. TFTim Ferriss5:47

       Yep.

   30. KRKevin Rose5:48

       And Mike was diagnosed with stage four cancer. Um, he went into chemotherapy treatment, and he was one of the guys that said, "I'm just not gonna, you know, um, just take what they give me, but I'm gonna go out and do my own research and see what else I can be doing to help, um, fight this and, and beat this down." And one of the things that came up was this idea of doing these five-day FMDs, and the FMD stands for fasting mimetic diet, and the idea- is that, um, compliance of doing a standard five-day fast is relatively low because it's, it- it's an extremely difficult thing to do. Um, and Tim, have you ever done a five-day water-only fast? Have you tried-
3. 13:31 – 17:44

   Cholesterol Results, Attia's Keto FMD and Measuring Ketones

   1. TFTim Ferriss13:31

      Right, and then you do maintenance once a quarter thereafter.

   2. KRKevin Rose13:35

      That's right.

   3. TFTim Ferriss13:35

      Okay.

   4. KRKevin Rose13:36

      Yeah, so I did the first five-day fast three months ago, um, had my blood work drawn, uh, drawn pre and post. Um, you know, small, minor improvements. Second fast, same thing. And then by the third, we actually saw, um, a, a dramatic drop on a few different fronts cholesterol-wise. And Attia was like, when he called me up on my, uh, 'cause we do these, like, little, you know, calls to go over my blood work, and he was just like, "Kevin, you're gonna, you're gonna live to 90 if you, you keep this up. This is amazing." So he was shocked, and he was blown away. And so, um, we're pretty happy with the results. We'll see how long they, they stick. Um, and this is no dietary changes. This is just ... I mean, granted, there's, there's a dietary change during those five days, but no, like, long term. I'm still kind of sticking to the same diet that I've always been, been sticking to.

   5. TFTim Ferriss14:24

      I like that he was so specific with 90. That's lower than I would've expected, so it must be all the-

   6. KRKevin Rose14:28

      Only with Attia

   7. TFTim Ferriss14:29

      ... it must be all the meth that you're doing that's gonna [laughs] kill you.

   8. KRKevin Rose14:32

      Yeah, I mean, I still do a dose of meth every, every now and then, but ... No, actually, speaking of meth, dude, I just did some L-theanine for the first time today.

   9. TFTim Ferriss14:39

      Yeah? Yeah.

   10. KRKevin Rose14:39

       Have you tried this with coffee?

   11. TFTim Ferriss14:41

       Yeah, I, it is very interesting stuff, to be sure.

   12. KRKevin Rose14:43

       Oh, my God, dude. I had never tried it before. I took a pill of it. I took, uh, 200, uh, milligrams this morning, and I was out with, with a, a mutual friend, Tony Conrad. We met for coffee, and I gave him a pill too.

   13. TFTim Ferriss14:53

       Oh, God.

   14. KRKevin Rose14:54

       And we were, like, cracked out for like three hours, man. [laughs] It-

   15. TFTim Ferriss15:00

       Yeah, so this observing of the biohacking is a mutual arrangement that Kevin and I have. [laughs]

   16. KRKevin Rose15:05

       [laughs]

   17. TFTim Ferriss15:06

       So it's not just him watching me squirting fluid out of my elbow. I also observe things that you do. Now, on the f- on the FMD though, just to return to that for a second, you mentioned in passing that Attia had looked at the possibility of doing a lower carbohydrate, higher fat version-

   18. KRKevin Rose15:26

       He actually has a protocol for that, yeah. I'm sure he'd p- he'd give you the PDF if you, if you asked for it for the podcast notes.

   19. TFTim Ferriss15:32

       Ha- have you tried it?

   20. KRKevin Rose15:33

       I did. Yeah, I did that for the second one, and it was ... I, I liked it. Um, actually, I just happened to buy a three-pack of the ProLon kit, so I wanted to go through them and use them-

   21. TFTim Ferriss15:41

       Oh, got it

   22. KRKevin Rose15:41

       ... 'cause, um, they're not cheap, and so I just used that for the last one. But I like Attia's in that it's a little bit more work, obviously, 'cause you're preparing your own food, but it's largely like, his is different in that with ProLon you get these little tiny snacks throughout the entire day. With his, it's one meal a day, and it's a, it's just a salad.

   23. TFTim Ferriss16:00

       Got it.

   24. KRKevin Rose16:00

       It's like a, uh, greens and, like, you know, three tablespoons or four tablespoons of olive oil and, like, six olives and, you know, like, some sunflower seeds. [laughs] Like, it's not, it's not a whole lot, but it certainly is, is, um, gives you ... It's not as refined, and so you, uh, my, I saw my ketone levels go up on his versus. And I, I think I had certainly more energy on his versus the ProLon.

   25. TFTim Ferriss16:22

       Got it. Well, I'll ping Peter about that. Uh, it makes sense that you would, on multiple levels, that you would have higher ketone levels. And for people who are wondering how one would measure ketone levels, uh, I think you and I still use the same device-

   26. KRKevin Rose16:35

       Yeah

   27. TFTim Ferriss16:35

       ... which is the Precision Xtra, X-T-R-A, by Abbott Labs, which does a, uh, sufficient job in measuring something called BHB, beta-hydroxybutyrate, in the blood for a, uh, for a number of different reasons. This is a much more precise and accurate ... Well, let's just call it precise, but consistently precise, maybe it's accurate, maybe it isn't [laughs] uh, method of measuring ketones or whether the degree to which you're in ketosis than pee sticks, because as your body becomes or if you're al- already very efficient at using ketone bodies, uh, you could show a false negative where you pee on this, on the stick, it tells you you're not in ketosis when in fact you are.

   28. KRKevin Rose17:18

       Right.

   29. TFTim Ferriss17:18

       So the blood, the blood is just more accurate. Uh, well, I, I'm glad you're gonna live to 90. That makes me happy.

   30. KRKevin Rose17:24

       Yeah. I mean, it was a, it was a pretty cool experiment, and, and certainly for someone that has heart disease running in their family, um, I'm gonna keep it up. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do another blood draw here next week to see where my levels are at, and then, um, try and do this quarterly. That's ... And hopefully, if we can get it down to, um, where I won't be using statins any longer, that'd be great.

4. 17:44 – 27:25

   Fatherhood and Living a Minimalist Lifestyle

   1. TFTim Ferriss17:44

      The last time we did a random show, it was a very, very long time ago I s- I believe, uh, it, it was at least before you had, uh, a little monkey in your house. And-

   2. KRKevin Rose17:56

      Yes

   3. TFTim Ferriss17:57

      ... uh, a reason, uh, many reasons of course to stick around, but now a, a very compelling new reason. So what is it ... W- how would you describe Since certainly I have no kids that I'm aware of at this point.

   4. KRKevin Rose18:10

      That's a good, uh, d-

   5. TFTim Ferriss18:11

      [laughs]

   6. KRKevin Rose18:12

      ... disclaimer there.

   7. TFTim Ferriss18:13

      Yeah, just, you know, that I, I don't have kids, asterisks, that I know of. Uh, what have been the biggest changes that you've felt or observed in, in yourself or otherwise, how you view the world, anything like that now that you have a kid?

   8. KRKevin Rose18:28

      Oh, man.

   9. TFTim Ferriss18:28

      And what, and, and what is your kid's name? I know you've-

   10. KRKevin Rose18:30

       Yeah, uh, Zelda. She's four months old, and, um, she's named after the video game because, um, one of the first things that my wife and I bonded on, uh, very early on in our relationship was our love for the game Zelda. And actually, the new Zelda game allows you to track your hours played. It actually shows it in, like, the little settings menu. And so Darya has, um, like, over 200 hours played of the latest Zelda.

   11. TFTim Ferriss18:54

       [laughs]

   12. KRKevin Rose18:54

       So she's, she's hardcore. She played it a lot during her pregnancy.

   13. TFTim Ferriss18:57

       She, she's a true believer. And when we were in Japan n- uh, a, a long time ago, uh, Darya was using some type of emulator. I don't know what, what device it was on exactly, but she was playing Zelda on all the trains when we were sitting down and chilling. That's one thing I do remember.

   14. KRKevin Rose19:12

       Yeah, like, the, the original... Yeah, Josh Cook was too.

   15. TFTim Ferriss19:14

       Yeah, that's right.

   16. KRKevin Rose19:15

       Yeah. That's, it's fun to play the original ones with those old school emulators. Um, but yeah, so in, in terms of her, I mean, it's, it's hard for, I think, a guy in that when you first have your first child it's, it's like, um, there's not a whole lot to do. There's just, like, a lot of crying.

   17. TFTim Ferriss19:31

       [laughs]

   18. KRKevin Rose19:31

       And so [laughs] it, it's... You know, I tried to help out where I can, but it's really, like, you know, on the hip of mom she was for the first, you know, several weeks, and just there's a lot of getting used to new things. And then now it's just, it's just amazing, dude. You walk into a room and she lights up when she sees me for the first time. She smiles and giggles and, you know, it kind of changes the way that I want to approach life in terms of, um, what things are important and trying to make more time to be a good father. And so, uh, for someone like myself and that has so many varying interests and, and certainly can get sucked into new things pretty easily, I've been, um, trying to be a little bit more thoughtful about where I, where and when I spend my energy, um, so that I can kind of dial back, you know? So, so I've spent a, a good portion of this year trying to live a little bit more m- minimalist lifestyle.

   19. TFTim Ferriss20:26

       What are some of the steps that you've taken to do that?

   20. KRKevin Rose20:29

       Well, um, one of the things that, um-

   21. TFTim Ferriss20:31

       I feel like you and I have had this conversation every year since we first met.

   22. KRKevin Rose20:34

       Oh, we always do.

   23. TFTim Ferriss20:35

       S- but now you actually have a h- a gigantic incentive to follow through.

   24. KRKevin Rose20:41

       Right.

   25. TFTim Ferriss20:41

       Right? [laughs]

   26. KRKevin Rose20:41

       Well, it's funny, every time Tim and I get together, it's just like, "Oh man, I've got too many investments. I'm doing this. There's too many things going on, and I gotta spend my time here," and we're always, like, com- more or less complaining to each other, uh, of just, like, just taking on too many things. Um, even [laughs] it's so ridiculous. Um, uh, [laughs] so I, I've just been trying to, um, implement a few rules. So one of the things I did starting January 1st was to throw away or donate something every single day. And so I have forced myself to go in and... So for example, um, a few days ago I went in and I just, like, picked out all the clothes that I haven't touched in, um, a year, and I took them down the street, like, I t- a half a block away is a donation place, and I donated anything that I hadn't worn in a year, and it really thins out your closet. And I've been doing that for-

   27. TFTim Ferriss21:34

       Was that, was that easy for you to do or did you have any-

   28. KRKevin Rose21:36

       Yes, absolutely.

   29. TFTim Ferriss21:37

       It was. There was no resistance.

   30. KRKevin Rose21:38

       That, that-
5. 27:25 – 31:52

   NAC, Lithium and Tim's Approach to Supplements

   1. KRKevin Rose27:25

      I still have one thing in there actually from you. It's, um, uh, that NAC, NAC supplement.

   2. TFTim Ferriss27:31

      Oh, yeah. N-

   3. KRKevin Rose27:32

      Should I buy that?

   4. TFTim Ferriss27:33

      N-acetylcysteine

   5. KRKevin Rose27:33

      I still haven't decided yet.

   6. TFTim Ferriss27:34

      Well, NAC, uh, so this is-- I, I should say with all of this stuff that we're discussing, because it bears repeating, we are not doctors. We don't play them on the internet. So everybody, everybody sh- should assume that at least 50% of what we're saying is complete fucking nonsense, and we're just-

   7. KRKevin Rose27:54

      [chuckles]

   8. TFTim Ferriss27:54

      ... not sure which 50% it is. So work with a qualified professional, uh, before you start taking or stopping any type of medication or supplement. The NAC came to me initially because I was, I was looking at, at it as a means to accelerate recovery between workouts. And, uh, my understanding, I might be getting this wrong, but is that it is a precursor to glutathione, which-

   9. KRKevin Rose28:21

      Mm-hmm

   10. TFTim Ferriss28:21

       ... some people think of as this master antioxidant or upstream antioxidant that has a host of beneficial effects. And what I noticed in taking the NAC is that I was, over the period of a week to 10 days, perhaps seven, eight days into it, that I was, I was more even-keeled than typ- than, than was typical. I felt ver- like the week had been very smooth, and I hadn't changed anything else that I could identify. I'd been either meditating or not meditating for a series of weeks. There were a lot of constants. And when I went onto PubMed and began to look at N-acetylcysteine and search for other terms like depression or bipolar and so on, th- there were a number of search results that popped up that seemed to indicate to me that there was some promise in using NAC to mitigate the amplitude of the ups and downs that could be associated with, say, bipolar.

   11. KRKevin Rose29:24

       Mm-hmm.

   12. TFTim Ferriss29:24

       And that, that's the primary reason that for, for periods of time, and I cycle off of all of these things, I become very fascinated by NAC, which quite nicely does have potentially recovery benefits from an athletic standpoint. Although most of my athletic prowess has been focused on eating oatmeal cookies recently, so I can't really claim that I'm doing a lot of, uh, killer workouts. I'm, I got rhabdo from eating oatmeal cookies. For you CrossFitters out there, that's for you. But, uh, the other would be something you and I are both familiar with, which, with a-- which is, uh, low-dose lithium orotate.

   13. KRKevin Rose30:00

       Mm-hmm. Yes.

   14. TFTim Ferriss30:01

       Very, very low dose lithium orotate, uh, five milligrams, which you can find on Amazon and elsewhere. And, uh, there's a great New York Times article which people can find very easily a- that is titled along the lines of, "Maybe We All Just Need a Little Bit of Lithium," and it talks about the inverse correlation of groundwater concentrations of lithium with, I want to say- at least reported suicide, homicide, manic depression, uh, and so on. So those two for me function in tandem or at least appeal to me for very similar reasons. So the NAC, should you use it or not, I think is a question of whether you feel you need it, and for me at least currently, uh, I, I get asked all the time, like, "What are your top 10 supplements that you're using right now?" Because people have this impression after reading The 4-Hour Body and so on that I'm [laughs] just like, I, I walk around with a drip IV bag in my arm and have 1,000 pills I'm taking four times a day.

   15. KRKevin Rose31:03

       Well, I've certainly seen you in that mode.

   16. TFTim Ferriss31:04

       You've seen that. No, you have seen me in that mode, but my mode right now is to really ensure that I am using supplements as supplements.

   17. KRKevin Rose31:14

       Right.

   18. TFTim Ferriss31:14

       And that I'm not using them to absolve me of the responsibility to eat proper food, for instance. And it's like, look, if you're drinking a lot and you're, like, compulsively watching porn and not exercising and, like, mainlining Pixy Stix for your diet and you're like, "Wow, I'm depressed. Maybe I should take 15 different supplements," it's like, no, you need to fucking fix the rest of your life [laughs] .

   19. KRKevin Rose31:37

       Right. Right, right.

   20. TFTim Ferriss31:37

       And then see what your baseline is because you're creating so much static and noise and garbage inputs that you don't even know what your baseline is.

   21. KRKevin Rose31:46

       Mm-hmm.

   22. TFTim Ferriss31:46

       It's, it's so disguised with sort of the, the trauma and confusion of your inputs that you need to-

6. 31:52 – 38:38

   Tracking Baselines and a Social Experiment on Drinking

   1. KRKevin Rose31:52

      Do you track your baseline? Like, do you log what you, what you consume and what you take?

   2. TFTim Ferriss31:58

      I log... You know, my baseline, this is gonna sound so primitive, and it is, but my baseline is really how do I feel when I wake up? You know, do I, do I wanna stay in bed because I don't wanna face the day? Am I anxious? Are those my first thoughts coming out of bed? Assuming that I'm not checking my phone, right? Because I'm... It, it's really my starting state out of the gate of wake, you know, sleep to wakefulness. And then at night, how much trouble do I have sleeping?

   3. KRKevin Rose32:25

      Mm.

   4. TFTim Ferriss32:26

      If any, or do I fall asleep easily? How deep is my sleep? And so for deepness of sleep, you could certainly use something like an Oura Ring or an accelerometer. I mean, there are different means by which you could try to assess the quality of your sleep. But for me, really looking at how consistently I feel good waking up and how long it takes me to get up to, say, first or second gear, 'cause it do- it, it, it historically has taken me a long time to go from park [laughs] to, like, second or third gear. Some people wake up, you might be one of these people, and they're like, " [inhales] Fuck it, world. Here I am. I'm ready to party." That's not me. It's like I have a real slow build, and-

   5. KRKevin Rose33:06

      I think I'm in between you and that. I-

   6. TFTim Ferriss33:08

      Yeah

   7. KRKevin Rose33:08

      ... I'm definitely not ready to party the second I wake up.

   8. TFTim Ferriss33:10

      Yeah.

   9. KRKevin Rose33:10

      I am after coffee. Have a cup of coffee-

   10. TFTim Ferriss33:12

       So I, uh-

   11. KRKevin Rose33:12

       ... I'm ready to party

   12. TFTim Ferriss33:12

       ... so I feel that way if, for instance, I'm in ketosis, past about two millimolars.

   13. KRKevin Rose33:17

       Hmm.

   14. TFTim Ferriss33:18

       I need less sleep, so let's call it six versus eight hours, and when I wake up, I am awake versus feeling groggy for an hour or two, hour and a half, uh, which can be remedied somewhat by the psychological advantage of exercising in the morning, which is one thing I've been scheduling to do more of per, uh, Jocko Willink, uh, retired, uh, Navy SEAL commander and all around-

   15. KRKevin Rose33:42

       Yeah

   16. TFTim Ferriss33:42

       ... intense dude.

   17. KRKevin Rose33:43

       He's a badass. Yeah [laughs] .

   18. TFTim Ferriss33:44

       In- intense, intense, accomplished guy. Uh, people can find him, tim.blog/jocko, first ever public interview. Uh, so I'm, I'm thrilled to have unleashed the giant white gorilla on the internet. [lip smack] And, uh, baseline, though, to return to your question, is really something I try to keep as simple as possible. Do I and have I measured all those other things? Yes. But I think that whether it's with your body or with a business or any number of other things, it's really easy to become addicted to measuring things that don't matter very much.

   19. KRKevin Rose34:18

       Mm-hmm.

   20. TFTim Ferriss34:18

       Uh, or, uh, we're still measuring things that will distract you from the things that do matter. Does that make sense?

   21. KRKevin Rose34:27

       Yeah.

   22. TFTim Ferriss34:28

       Yeah.

   23. KRKevin Rose34:28

       Yeah, that totally makes sense.

   24. TFTim Ferriss34:29

       Yeah.

   25. KRKevin Rose34:30

       Um, I, I've, I, I've tried to kind of pare it down to just the stuff I really care about. I just sent you a link, uh, in our video chat, um, to my dashboard for the things I measure every day.

   26. TFTim Ferriss34:39

       Cool.

   27. KRKevin Rose34:40

       Um, so for me, you know, I'm really concerned about my glucose levels 'cause they are a tiny bit heleva- elevated. So I do waking glucose, bedtime glucose, I do whether I meditated that day or not, I do how many hours I fasted the night prior, I do how many drinks I've had, and then I do what type of workout, whether I had tea or coffee that day, and then my food. But food not in terms of kind of a, a by, by the calorie, you know, super anal kind of breakdown, but really just typing out what I ate for that day as a way to hold myself accountable and just, like, look over the last few days at a glance and see if I've been behaving or not.

   28. TFTim Ferriss35:17

       I-

   29. KRKevin Rose35:18

       So I find that just the act of writing it down makes me behave a little bit better.

   30. TFTim Ferriss35:21

       It does. Okay, that was gonna be my question is h- how does that actually impact your behavior?
7. 38:38 – 48:13

   Cutting Back on Alcohol: Sauna, Travel Hacks and Measuring Cups

   1. TFTim Ferriss38:38

      So, so what-

   2. KRKevin Rose38:38

      You can see my spreadsheet here

   3. TFTim Ferriss38:39

      ... so what has helped you most to decrease the amount that you drink?

   4. KRKevin Rose38:44

      Well, I think there is fear. Um, you know, I, I've seen a bunch of studies. There was one that was just published here a couple weeks ago that said the number one, um, [smacks lips] uh, the largest study ever around, uh, dementia and alcohol abuse, and, um, they're very closely linked, which is really frightening. Um, and I think just, you know, wanting to live longer for my daughter has been another one, back to the point that you had, um, earlier about what, what has changed. Um, and just getting older. You know, hangovers get, uh, they happen at two and a half drinks these days.

   5. TFTim Ferriss39:15

      Right.

   6. KRKevin Rose39:15

      And so it's like, why, why roll the dice? And so for me, it's, um, it, it's finding, uh, to, to, uh, to get to your, uh, question around what have I done differently, there's a couple things. Um, [smacks lips] one, I've, I kind of set aside time to learn at night, which I think is really important, and you really can't drink and learn at the same time. So, um, you know-

   7. TFTim Ferriss39:38

      [laughs] Or, or remember what you attempt to learn.

   8. KRKevin Rose39:39

      Right. Exactly. And the second thing that has been huge for me, though, has been the sauna. The sauna has been massive because it is like four drinks or three drinks r- just by going and doing a 30-minute high intense heat sauna session. Um, and you come home and you sleep like a baby. And, you know, if you don't have a sauna, that can also be substituted with a really hot bath. And just finding ways to ... It, it's like the f- it's always been about I'm with my wife, I'm sitting down, and we're gonna crack open a bottle of wine and I'll have a couple glasses of wine. It's never been like, "Hey, let's go party." Those days are long gone, like, you know, a decade plus gone. Um, I've, I've ... No, don't look at it like that.

   9. TFTim Ferriss40:19

      A decade, a decade plus? [laughs]

   10. KRKevin Rose40:20

       No, listen, if we're out traveling together, Tim, I'm gonna g- uh, we're, we're gonna have fun, right?

   11. TFTim Ferriss40:24

       [laughs] Okay.

   12. KRKevin Rose40:25

       So the only times we, you and I hang is, like, when we're traveling together.

   13. TFTim Ferriss40:28

       All right.

   14. KRKevin Rose40:28

       So you can't like, you can't put that on me.

   15. TFTim Ferriss40:30

       That's true. All right, all right. Fair enough. We're in different cities now. I, I will say-

   16. KRKevin Rose40:34

       Yeah

   17. TFTim Ferriss40:34

       ... for those people who are like, "Wait, they can see each other?" Uh, we are doing a very intimate, uh, video chat on Skype that you c- you will be able to see on my YouTube channel, just youtube.com/TimFerriss, two Rs, two Ss, and Kevin is dressed for success, I will note.

   18. KRKevin Rose40:49

       [laughs]

   19. TFTim Ferriss40:50

       He is.

   20. KRKevin Rose40:50

       I, I just had a partner meeting this morning, so-

   21. TFTim Ferriss40:52

       [laughs]

   22. KRKevin Rose40:53

       ... we dress up a little bit.

   23. TFTim Ferriss40:54

       No, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. So, uh, so I gave you that look. Traveling's a bit of an exception. Now, how do you prevent yourself, you like, you have traveled a lot in some cases historically. Now, that may change with your daughter, but how do you prevent that from becoming the excuse to drink that happens frequently? Does that make sense? Because this happens in all sorts of capacities, right, where people will say-

   24. KRKevin Rose41:20

       Yeah

   25. TFTim Ferriss41:20

       ... "Oh, you're traveling. You should eat pizza every night." Right? I, I hear that and I'm like, if I, if I followed that rule, I'd be Jabba the Hutt because I'm, I ch- I end up traveling so much. If I allowed myself that out, it would become a real problem.

   26. KRKevin Rose41:34

       Yeah. Yeah, traveling is, is difficult and especially when it's in kind of a, a social setting. You know, if you combine traveling with social, like, you know, I'll be going to, um, to, to TED in a couple weeks, and I know that there's just gonna be a lot of parties and a lot of events and a lot of drinking. So, um, I, I think that's one of the things that I need to work on, is that I have a hard time dealing with, like, large groups of people that I don't know. And as a social lubricant, alcohol is amazing, right? So it's like, what else can we do? And, and I think that, that, someone was telling me this, that, um, you know, you never really strengthen that muscle, like, if you're y- leaning on the crutch of alcohol. So you're never gonna become more, uh, comfortable with new humans and new interactions and new ways of, like, kind of breaking the ice if you always just go to the booze, right? So I think of it as like, okay, this is my workout I'm going into. And the other thing I do is I, so I got a couple little hacks. One is to show up a little bit late. So then you skip a drink, right? And it's funny how if you skip a drink or two and you get there and people are already a little hammered, how unattractive and unappealing drinking then becomes. Because you look and everybody's like, "Hey, it's good to see you." You know, and it's like a little bit sloppy and it's a little... And you look at that and you're like, "Okay, they're relaxed. They're not gonna, like, you know, remember what I said anyway."

   27. TFTim Ferriss42:53

       [laughs]

   28. KRKevin Rose42:54

       Not, not the, the that hammered, but you know what I mean. They're, they're in a relaxed state, so I can be a little bit more jokey and be myself and not have to worry about being hammered.

   29. TFTim Ferriss43:02

       Sure.

   30. KRKevin Rose43:02

       And so I think that, that's a big piece of it. Um, you know, when I'm at home, you're gonna laugh at this, but on Amazon I went and I bought these, um, speaking of buying more things and probably I'm gonna throw away in a year, um, I bought these measuring cups that measure out exactly one glass of wine.
8. 48:13 – 56:18

   Learning How to Learn and Spaced Study Techniques

   1. KRKevin Rose48:13

      Honestly, have you heard of this, uh, Coursera course called Learning How to Learn?

   2. TFTim Ferriss48:17

      I have not. Who teaches it?

   3. KRKevin Rose48:18

      Oh. Oh, so it's done by a couple professors, and I'm actually in the middle of that right now. Um, it was another kind of biohacker recommended it to me. Yeah, apparently it's the number one watched course on Coursera right now.

   4. TFTim Ferriss48:30

      Hmm.

   5. KRKevin Rose48:31

      And it's just been fascinating how they dig into the science of learning and, like, how, um, you go in this kind of like focused or diffused mode and how to really go in and concentrate on something and when the optimal time is to learn, and it's all the science around learning.

   6. TFTim Ferriss48:45

      What did we-

   7. KRKevin Rose48:46

      So that-

   8. TFTim Ferriss48:46

      Oh, sorry to interrupt. Go ahead.

   9. KRKevin Rose48:48

      Oh, I'm just getting, I'm just getting started with it. So that's, that's what I've been diving into and kind of spending my nights watching those videos. Um, but it, it talks about the importance of actually getting away from your material, so like getting really focused and setting a timer for 25 minutes maximum, going really in depth on the, the, the course material, and then backing away and kind of going into this more relaxed mode. Um, they were talking about how, uh, was it, um, Benjamin Franklin? I can't remember who it was that used to hold a, a pair of keys in their hand, and then kind of... And Salvador Dali did this as well, actually. Hold a pair of keys in your hand, and you kind of just go into this relaxed state, thinking about, um, what you wanna learn, and to where you almost fall asleep, and when you drop the keys out of your hand and it wakes you up, that's when you kind of go back, and then you realize you were successful at getting that, that relaxed, and you'll retain and become more creative. And I don't know, it's just fascinating stuff. And so I'm, I'm just getting started with the course. It's free.

   10. TFTim Ferriss49:40

       Very cool. Yeah, the, uh, the intervals and the duration of intervals for learning, along with break periods is, is something that I've experimented a lot with as it relates to language learning, because it's so measurable. You can look at, say, your recall of foreign vocabulary, assuming you're controlling for a few different variables, right? So s- uh, adjectives are generally gonna be harder than nouns, for instance. But if you are controlling for that, you can look at what your retention is, say, 48 hours later for 100 words you attempted to learn in one session versus two sessions-

   11. KRKevin Rose50:16

       Mm-hmm

   12. TFTim Ferriss50:16

       ... versus three sessions with different types of breaks. And I did that when I was looking at, uh, a few different languages, specifically over 2004, 2005. Actually, I've never shown you these notes. I have text edit documents with all of my notes on language learning for about a year p- year-long period, looking at all of this type of stuff.

   13. KRKevin Rose50:34

       Hmm.

   14. TFTim Ferriss50:35

       And, uh, there were some very clear patterns, such as f- focusing on the material right before bed-

   15. KRKevin Rose50:43

       Mm-hmm

   16. TFTim Ferriss50:43

       ... right? With no interruption. So mu- much like how it's recommended by many names both you and I know, that you meditate first thing in the morning, before you brush your teeth, before you check your phone, before anything else, when you have this tabula rasa blank state-

   17. KRKevin Rose50:59

       Mm-hmm

   18. TFTim Ferriss50:59

       ... of sorts. Uh, focusing on material that you want to consolidate in memory and recall later right before bed, uh, at least in my experience, dramatically improves recall. And then-

   19. KRKevin Rose51:12

       Mm-hmm

   20. TFTim Ferriss51:12

       ... this is actually very important, not just doing that, but when you wake up, before doing anything else, which for, for me would override meditation, doing a recall exercise of some type, I, I tend to use flashcards, to determine which have stuck and which have not. So those-

   21. KRKevin Rose51:28

       Hmm

   22. TFTim Ferriss51:28

       ... that have not, since I'm looking at language, I would usually, I would give myself, like, a quarter of a second. It couldn't be delayed, because in speech, you're not going to have the luxury [chuckles] of sitting there p- paused for long periods of time. It would go back into the rotation for review again throughout that day and later that night. Uh, but that's, that has proven really, really helpful. Um-

   23. KRKevin Rose51:50

       How about exercise? One of the things they mention in this course is this idea of doing cardiovascular exercise. I believe it's post learning something new, and apparently the science was saying that it just sticks, um, that much more. I don't have any numbers in front of me, but it was, it was something along... Have you heard anything about that?

   24. TFTim Ferriss52:08

       Uh, so I, I have, in terms of, uh, spacing... or I'm sorry, the, the timing of exercise, uh, I, I, I have less clarity, but there's an entire book called Spark that talks about the, uh, among other things, the role of exercise in education and learning, and would point to things like BDNF, the release of brain-derived neurotrophic factor, which can be elicited through different types of exercise. And, you know, part of me thinks that, uh, when one says because these are the easiest to study, or very often the easiest to study, cardiovascular exercise, uh, this is where it comes down to trying to become literate with reading scientific studies or understanding how things typically work. So f- as a couple of baselines, scientific studies usually use volunteer populations known as students, and those students have 45-minute class blocks or 60-minute class blocks. [chuckles] So to keep those students busy, people are very often disincentivized from using shorter duration, say, uh, high-intensity training, uh, or s- or something like that, weightlifting for instance, resistance training. A- and if you want to, as an experimenter, design something that requires as little monitoring as possible, it's like, all right, stick them on a stationary bike, right?

   25. KRKevin Rose53:33

       Mm-hmm.

   26. TFTim Ferriss53:33

       If you have people doing burpees or deadlifts, [chuckles] like you actually need to-

   27. KRKevin Rose53:37

       Ah, I hate burpees.

   28. TFTim Ferriss53:37

       Yeah, but you need to pay attention, right? You need to pay attention-

   29. KRKevin Rose53:39

       Sure

   30. TFTim Ferriss53:40

       ... if people are, are lifting weights and so on. There are more safety concerns. So I think that i- and just to point out perhaps the obvious, that weightlifting is actually one of the most cardiovascular activities you could possibly engage in. Uh, but I, I won't digress into that. You can look at a book called Body by Science, uh, for, for all the details on why that is the case. But it would make sense to me that exercise could certainly play a role in increasing cognitive function.
9. 56:18 – 1:03:24

   Getting Back on Track and Kevin's Tony Robbins Experience

   1. KRKevin Rose56:18

      oh, one thing I did wanna talk about, which I think would be fun to chat about 'cause we've both done it, um, real quick, is the, uh, is Tony Robbins.

   2. TFTim Ferriss56:25

      Yeah. Yeah, let's talk about it, for sure.

   3. KRKevin Rose56:27

      Yeah.

   4. TFTim Ferriss56:27

      So you, so you recently had... I've done two different Tony Robbins events, uh, UPW, Unleash the Power Within, which was my first event, and then more recently in December of this last year, Date With Destiny, which is a longer event.

   5. KRKevin Rose56:40

      Oh, you did that. I didn't know you did Date With Destiny as well.

   6. TFTim Ferriss56:42

      I did. I did. So I've done two events, and, uh, some people have had a bit of exposure to Date With Destiny through the I Am Not Your Guru documentary, which, uh, was, was co-produced, in fact, by someone who's been on this podcast, Bryan Koppelman, a really accomplished filmmaker. But what was your experience like, first Tony Robbins event?

   7. KRKevin Rose57:01

      Yeah, I mean, it was kinda crazy. I, I've, um, thanks to you, uh, got, you know, hooked up with him, and, uh, and went down and, and got a chance to meet him and, and hang out with him. Um, I, you know, I think that Tony is this, this kind of, um... He's proven himself now that he's been doing this for so long. I mean, he's doing it for, for 40-plus years. But I think that in, in the back of my mind, I kind of remember when I was a little kid, the kind of like audio tape version, infomercial version of Tony, you know?

   8. TFTim Ferriss57:32

      Right.

   9. KRKevin Rose57:32

      So there's always this stigma in my mind that was like, "Oh, is he trying to sell me something? What's going on here?" You know? And I, I w- also watched his documentary, and I was like, "Wow, this guy's clearly brilliant. He's, he takes this stuff very seriously, and he's r- truly breaking through to people and helping people change their lives." And so he's like, "Hey, I'm gonna be in the Bay Area. You know, you should come down." I was like, "Okay, that sounds awesome." [lips smack] Took a buddy of mine, um, that, uh, uh, has a lot of anxiety, a- and he shall go unnamed, but he, he wanted to go, and he was like, "Kevin, let's do this," and I was like, "Okay, let's do it." Um, so went down for the three-day event, and I thought it was great. I gotta tell you-

   10. TFTim Ferriss58:08

       Yeah

   11. KRKevin Rose58:08

       ... it's, you walk into it, and I was in an arena where there was, you know, 12,000 people, and so there is a lot of people there. And, um, everybody is coming there for a different reason, right? So I was sitting across from a guy that had lost his legs, um, and was, uh, previously a, a drug addict, and I think he had some infection in his legs or something, had to have them both amputated. Um, I was sitting next to someone that, uh, she was running her own social media business and just wanted to, like, uh, you know, get better with her business and improve, um, her, her finances, and, um, she was getting through a relationship that she had just ended. And, you know, so everyone had something to kinda come in and bring to the table, and of course, we all do. If we're honest with ourselves, everyone has someone they're, something they're trying to work on. And so, you know, I went in there, and day one was awesome. I mean, Tony got out there, and he, he spoke for, like, uh, I don't know, 12 hours. We were there-

   12. TFTim Ferriss58:58

       Yeah, he's a b-

   13. KRKevin Rose58:58

       ... until after midnight

   14. TFTim Ferriss58:59

       ... he's, he's a complete mutant. Yeah, it's, it's unbelievable.

   15. KRKevin Rose59:01

       I don't even know when he pees.

   16. TFTim Ferriss59:03

       Yeah.

   17. KRKevin Rose59:03

       Like, I have no idea when he uses the bathroom.

   18. TFTim Ferriss59:05

       Or drinks water. Yeah, just-

   19. KRKevin Rose59:07

       Yeah. [laughs]

   20. TFTim Ferriss59:07

       Yeah, he's just a machine. The guy's a machine.

   21. KRKevin Rose59:08

       He is a machine. Um, but, uh, you know, I walked over the coals, um, with him, and he, he was like, "Bring out some fresh coals for Kevin." And of course, they put, like, fresh... You, you walk, you actually walk over coals at the end of the night. You know, you've done this, right?

   22. TFTim Ferriss59:23

       I have, yeah. Mm-hmm.

   23. KRKevin Rose59:24

       Did he bring out fresh coals for you?

   24. TFTim Ferriss59:25

       [laughs] I can't recall if he brought out fresh coals for me. I think that might've been the, the VIP treatment that you received.

   25. KRKevin Rose59:31

       It was a lot of fun, and I think that the biggest takeaway for me was really, um, um, a c- a couple things. Uh, one was definitely this thing called the wheel of life. Did you have to do that?

   26. TFTim Ferriss59:45

       I think-

   27. KRKevin Rose59:45

       Where you fill out your wheel?

   28. TFTim Ferriss59:46

       I'm sure I did. I'm sure I did.

   29. KRKevin Rose59:48

       Okay. So, so he's-

   30. TFTim Ferriss59:49

       And I, and I, and I should also point out that for the attendees at these events, and I'll, I'll, I have a little bit more to say about this, but the exercises that really... And they, they, there are very tactical, prescriptive exercises, but that the exercises that change someone else's trajectory and give them extremely concrete next steps that have an impact are very often completely different exercises from those that affect the person right next to you.
10. 1:03:24 – 1:12:27

    Tim's Take on Tony Robbins Events and Social Proof

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:03:24

       Yeah, he, he's a real master of his craft, and what I would say to folks, uh, who have a certain image of Tony is that when you go to an event like this, I think the right away to approach it is to be skeptical but not cynical and open to trying all of the exercises he suggests.

    2. KRKevin Rose1:03:49

       Mm-hmm.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:03:49

       And that there are going to be components that may not agree with you in the sense that there's a lot of jumping around, there's a lot of music, there's a lot of noise, for lack of a better word, and a lot of those elements made me uncomfortable. They're not things that I would seek out normally.

    4. KRKevin Rose1:04:08

       Oh, my God, I could not see you dancing and jumping around.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:04:10

       Uh, right? Right?

    6. KRKevin Rose1:04:12

       Yeah. [laughs]

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:04:12

       It's, it's, it's just not my thing. So s- but the filter that I used going into it or the lens through which I was looking at it was, I, it was made easier because one of my f- one of my very close friends I've known since college who's had multiple company exits, is extremely, extremely accomplished, and he goes to Unleash the Power Within every year as a reset. He's been 11 times, maybe 12 now. He's been to Date With Destiny six times.

    8. KRKevin Rose1:04:39

       Wow.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:04:39

       And this, and this guy is not a seminar junkie. He's not someone who avoids the work and goes to listen to a motivational speech so that he can feel better on a sugar high for two days and not take any next steps. Like, this is not that guy. He is an operator. So the fact that he had been so many times, uh, really led me to want to stick with the entire event. And I'm not g- not gonna lie, I had hard points, and then I mentioned this to you, and it may not be the exercise that had a, a, a large impact on you, but the Dickens process that I ended up-

    10. KRKevin Rose1:05:13

        Yes

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:05:13

        ... along with Tony, uh, including in Tools of Titans, one of my more recent books, because it had such a big impact, made the entire event an easy like 10 to 100x return for me.

    12. KRKevin Rose1:05:27

        Mm-hmm. That was the last day, too.

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:05:28

        That's right. So just that 30 to 60-minute exercise led me to dramatically improve my relationship with my father, to take responsibility for certain things that I had been telling myself were unchangeable-

    14. KRKevin Rose1:05:42

        Mm-hmm

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:05:42

        ... to really buckle down and step into discomfort to make some meaningful changes. And it, and th- those are changes, uh, Unleash the Power Within I wanna say I went to, now it's gotta be three to five years ago. Uh, those changes, the ripple effects of those changes that I made then are still very tangible now. And, uh, then Date With Destiny, very similar. But to go into it expecting that if you step into it and accept some level of discomfort and commit to trying everything, this is just my view, that at least 50% you're going to end up discarding. Probably 20% you're gonna find really uncomfortable and you're gonna dislike actively. And then like 10 to 25% you're gonna go, "Holy shit, I can't believe how powerful that just was." And it's not a lot of hand-wavy, woo-woo ambiguity. These exercises are really, really, really specific.

    16. KRKevin Rose1:06:42

        Mm-hmm.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:06:42

        So you don't have to accept Tony as your one and only savior. You don't have to believe that he is flawless, because he is not. He's just like everyone else. He's a imperfect creature trying to do the best with the gifts and talents he's developed. Uh, but the guy knows his shit, and he actually, he actually really cares, and as I've gotten to know him over the last few years more and more so, I've become more impressed with him, not less impressed. Um, and, uh, that is at least if one were thinking of, let's say, attending one of these events, and I have no-- I have zero vested interest in sending anyone to these events other than they, they've had a material impact on my life. That's why I was, I was happy to see that you were going to attend. Uh- That they go in with an open mind expecting that much like if you read any type of book, you're not expecting every line to be a life-changing piece of gold. You're hoping that net-net it's going to be worth the time that you invested.

    18. KRKevin Rose1:07:44

        Yeah.

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:07:44

        Right? And-

    20. KRKevin Rose1:07:44

        I, I-

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:07:45

        Yeah. That's been my takeaway, that it's absolutely been worth the time investing.

    22. KRKevin Rose1:07:48

        Yeah, 100% agree. And I, I think that, um, like you, going into this was a, certainly a really uncomfortable thing for me in terms of when they first start the music and [laughs] and people come out on the stage and they start dancing. And like, you can tell the people that have been there before because they immediately like jump out of their seats and like start like kinda rocking out and throwing their hands in the air. And I'm thinking to myself, "I hate dancing. I hate dancing."

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:08:16

        [laughs]

    24. KRKevin Rose1:08:16

        I've never liked dancing with anyone, my wife or anyone. I always feel so awkward when I'm doing it, you know? Like, I'm like a, a geek that likes to like sit in front of my computer at night. And so-

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:08:26

        [laughs]

    26. KRKevin Rose1:08:26

        ... it's like ... Then I thought, uh, something another friend had told me that had gone and said, "Hey, Kevin, like you just have to go with it. Like, if you wanna get anything out of it, you have to realize that he's doing this by design to put you into a certain state," right? He wants to g- to get you in- into an optimal state and an optimal ... That can mean like, like one, one example of one thing that we did is we took something, um, that was very serious to us, like something, uh, uh, like a limiting belief that you had held so seriously, and you say it out loud in a very joking and like laughing way, and everybody, like 12,000 people are all doing this at the same time, and you're like laughing and saying it. And it's kind of like breaking it down in your, in your mind and letting you know that you don't have to take it so seriously, and you can joke about it and have fun with it because it's been forever since, since, um, you know, you've probably ever done that in your life. Like, you've ... When was the last time you were able to take something that you held so seriously and so guarded and, and, and have a good time with it? And so he knows how to set up these little traps for you that, that trick you into reframing things in your mind, and it really does change your long-term pers- perspective on things. And yeah, I, I, I'm ... Dude, I'm a fan. I would definitely go back again. I did the three-day event, the Unleash the Power Within, the same one as you. Um, but yeah, had, had fun with it, so, so thanks for helping out with that.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:09:44

        Yeah, man. My pleasure. I, I would suggest also that [dog barks] Uh, that's, that's Molly saying hello in the background for those people who can hear my dog barking. But that as, as a, as a point of social proof, and of course Tony's fully aware of, of the sort of gravitas this would bring, but there are people, for instance Marc Benioff of Salesforce, uh, which I think has more than 10 billion in annual revenue now, uh, who will point blank say that Salesforce would probably not exist were it not for Tony Robbins, and still attends some of these events. Uh, he-

    28. KRKevin Rose1:10:25

        Yeah

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:10:25

        ... was right behind me at Date With Destiny.

    30. KRKevin Rose1:10:27

        [laughs] Crazy.
11. 1:12:27 – 1:18:21

    Rethinking the Self-Help Genre and Spotting Bad Science

    1. KRKevin Rose1:12:27

       Yeah. I just love that this whole genre, like the self-help genre, is becoming ... Like, it, it's not as frowned upon as it used to be. Like, I don't know if you, you remember, but probably, you know, 10, 15, 20 years ago, like if you went to that area of like the bookstore, you were like, "Oh, oh, look at like who's in the self-help section."

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:12:46

       [laughs]

    3. KRKevin Rose1:12:46

       Like, "They must, there must be something wrong with them."

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:12:48

       [laughs]

    5. KRKevin Rose1:12:48

       And now, now ... No, seriously, d-

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:12:50

       Yeah

    7. KRKevin Rose1:12:50

       ... that used to be the case.

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:12:51

       Oh, yeah.

    9. KRKevin Rose1:12:51

       And now it's like it's gone, and he's probably at the center of it, but it's become this idea of not s- uh, self-help. It's, it's really it's just like th- this idea that we're all on a journey of lifelong learning, and we all are, are done BS-ing ourselves, and there's not a single person that has all of life figured out, so why don't we all a- actively, openly work on this together? And, and I think it's awesome.

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:13:13

        Yeah, and I should also say that at, at one point, as, as an example, I was interviewed on the BBC, and, uh, they wanted to talk about sel- the self-help genre. And I knew it was gonna be a setup, right? I, I knew that they wanted me to defend self-help and they wanted to attack self-help, right? [laughs] So, and I knew this going in, that this is what it was gonna be, or I figured it out about an hour beforehand when I got some notes and I was like, "Oh, I see where this is going." [laughs] So they, they bring me out. This is a, this is a television show- And they say, "Good evening, Mr. Ferriss. We just wanted to talk about da, da, da, da, bio, bio, blah, blah, blah. What is your general opinion of the self-help genre?" Something along those lines. And in effect, I said, "I think 99.9% of it is just horseshit." And I said, "It's, it pains me sometimes to be associated with the label self-help, uh, for X, Y, and Z reasons." And then th- they didn't have a leg to stand on, right? Because I'd taken their side of the argument, which was kind of hilarious.

    11. KRKevin Rose1:14:11

        [laughs] That's funny.

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:14:12

        And, uh, and then I said, "But at the same time, I think the label self-help has, in many cases, an unfairly negative connotation because, A, if you look at almost any type of reading, whether it's a novel where people want to escape or it's nonfiction where they're hoping to learn more about, let's just call it Andrew Carnegie or you name the figure, there is s- there is some motive behind that that they hope to help them, whether it's a shift of emotion, the gathering of knowledge so they can impress people at a dinner party or otherwise. And that if I were to look at who I would say potentially emulate in the world of self-help, it would probably be someone like, this is a name you brought up earlier, Ben Franklin, right?

    13. KRKevin Rose1:15:00

        Mm-hmm.

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:15:00

        Who most certainly, uh, wrote extensively about what we would consider today self-help, but he's not lumped into the category of, say, potential, and these people do exist, certainly charlatans who are just selling a l- a, a bill of goods that doesn't deliver, right? There are plenty of people who have not walked the walk and talk extensively about their expertise and make recommendations and prescriptions. There are people all over the world in every possible discipline who do this, and a lot of them tend to concentrate in this section of the bookstore called self-help, unfortunately. But it's, it's that alone isn't enough to disqualify something. And certainly if we look at these, the popularity of tutorials on YouTube, for instance, of, in-

    15. KRKevin Rose1:15:52

        Yeah

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:15:52

        ... any possible subject matter, if you look at the popularity of the Creative Lives and the Courseras and so on.

    17. KRKevin Rose1:15:58

        Sure.

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:15:59

        Uh, everyone now has access to expertise that even 10 years ago would've cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to access if they had the ability at all. You look at, say, Harvard, MIT, Stanford, many of these schools that are putting, uh, their courses online, in some cases for free access, and I know people who have taught themselves to code in this way. All of that is self-help, right?

    19. KRKevin Rose1:16:25

        Yeah.

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:16:25

        So it's, it's important, I think, that people not, uh, disqualify exploring certain realms because of a label that really represents a concept which may or may not apply to what it is you're examining. Um-

    21. KRKevin Rose1:16:40

        Yeah, I mean, there's gonna be scammers in every genre too.

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:16:43

        Yeah.

    23. KRKevin Rose1:16:43

        I love, I love how Joe Rogan, I don't know if you've seen these posts that he's done recently, but he does videos of these martial artists-

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:16:48

        Oh, the Legit as Fuck? Yeah.

    25. KRKevin Rose1:16:50

        Yeah, where they can, they can-

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:16:50

        That's his, that's his caption

    27. KRKevin Rose1:16:51

        ... throw people with their mind.

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:16:52

        Yeah, yeah.

    29. KRKevin Rose1:16:52

        And he's like [laughs]

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:16:53

        Yeah, Joe Rogan puts up these fake martial arts videos. I mean, they're not fake. They're videos of people who actually believe that what's happening is happening. But you have-
12. 1:18:21 – 1:22:49

    Most Recommended Books and Sign-Off

    1. KRKevin Rose1:18:21

       I was gonna ask you, um, Tools of Titans, I mean, obviously in your books there have been tons of book recommendations.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:18:29

       Yeah.

    3. KRKevin Rose1:18:29

       And there was that one kid, do you remember the kid that, that, like, took all, and he, he had created-

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:18:34

       Oh [laughs]

    5. KRKevin Rose1:18:35

       He took, took out all the books out of your recommendations-

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:18:37

       Yeah

    7. KRKevin Rose1:18:37

       ... and then ranked them?

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:18:38

       Yeah, uh, yeah, ranked them or just organized them as thumbnails. Yeah, I do remember that. Mm-hmm.

    9. KRKevin Rose1:18:42

       Yeah, so the, the idea was that what is the most recommended book inside Tool- Tools of Titans across the board-

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:18:48

        Yeah

    11. KRKevin Rose1:18:48

        ... by all the people that were, that were in that book, and kinda stack ranking them based on the votes.

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:18:54

        Mm-hmm.

    13. KRKevin Rose1:18:54

        Um, do you have that list anywhere? Do you have a list of, like, the most recommended books by all of your guests?

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:18:59

        Yeah, I do actually, and I'll pull the, I'll pull it up right now because I put it o- I put it on the blog for, for everybody.

    15. KRKevin Rose1:19:05

        That's a great way.

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:19:07

        Yeah. I put it up on-

    17. KRKevin Rose1:19:07

        Yeah, that's a great way to cut through all the crap, you know?

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:19:09

        Yeah, I put it up on the blog, and if you give me a second, I will find where it is. Uh, this might take a second. So I'm looking at Tribe of Mentors, the most recent, uh, but the-- Where would I find this? If you go onto tim.blog and search Like Tools of Titans books

    19. KRKevin Rose1:19:29

        We can put a link in the show notes, right?

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:19:30

        We'll put a link in the show notes. So if you want a link, this will be the smarter way to do it. If you want to see a page where the most commonly recommended books from Tools of Titans and from Tribe of Mentors, th- uh, combined, you're looking at about 500 different world-class performers of all different disciplines, ranging from top professional athletes to chess prodigies to, uh, former generals, uh, certainly 12-plus billionaires, uh, then you will get to see rank ordered in terms of frequency which books are most recommended. So I will put those in the show notes, and you guys can find that at, uh, tim.blog/podcast, uh, if you wanna see, you know, of these people who are the best at what they do, which books across disciplines do they recommend most often. A few of them, just off the bat for people who are curious, uh, Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, uh, Poor Charlie's Almanack by Charlie Munger, Seeking Wisdom by Peter Bevelin, uh, and, uh, certainly Atlas Shrugged, even though it's a controversial book, but Ayn Rand comes up a lot in terms of developing a sense of personal agency. I think that has popped up quite a lot, and many more. But I'll, I'll give you the full list, because there are some that pop up quite frequently, uh, that you won't recognize at all, and those are, to me, oftentimes the, the, the really fun ones to explore.

    21. KRKevin Rose1:20:55

        Awesome. Yeah, I've got a bunch of Audible credits waiting to be spent, so I'll do that.

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:20:58

        [laughs] Awesome, man. Well, I think that, uh, this is, this is a solid catch-up.

    23. KRKevin Rose1:21:04

        Yeah. Thanks for having me on, and, uh, yeah, it was fun to chat.

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:21:08

        And where, where can people learn more about Kevin Rose, find you-

    25. KRKevin Rose1:21:12

        Yeah

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:21:12

        ... on the interwebs?

    27. KRKevin Rose1:21:14

        Certainly, um, my podcast is available at, uh, kevinrose.com. Um, and then also if you wanna check out my, uh, free meditation app, it's 100% free, um, a little bit more traditional meditation. It's called Oak, and you can do that at oakmeditation.com.

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:21:30

        Nice and succinct. No social?

    29. KRKevin Rose1:21:33

        Uh, I don't... You know, Twitter at K- @KevinRose. But, like, I, I don't know that I use it that much anymore.

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:21:39

        That's good.

Episode duration: 1:23:08