Rick Rubin Interview (Full Episode) | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)

1. 0:00 – 5:59

   Intro and Rick Rubin's Background

   1. TFTim Ferriss0:00

      Optimal minimal At this altitude, I can run flat-out for a half-mile before my hands start shaking.

   2. RRRick Rubin0:06

      Can I ask you a personal question? Now we're receiving a proxy command.

   3. TFTim Ferriss0:10

      What if I give the opposite?

   4. RRRick Rubin0:12

      I'm a cybernetic organism. Living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

   5. TFTim Ferriss0:16

      The Tim Ferriss Show. This episode is brought to you by 99designs, your one-stop shop for all things graphic design related. I've used 99designs for everything from banner ads to book covers, including sketches and mock-ups that led to The 4-Hour Body, which later became number one New York Times, number one Wall Street Journal. And the brainstorming, a lot of it took place with designers from around the world, and here's how it works. Whether you need a T-shirt, a business card, a website, an app thumbnail, whatever it might be, you submit that project, and designers from around the world will send you sketches and mock-ups and designs. You choose your favorite, and you have an original that you love, or you get your money back. It's that straightforward. And many of you who are listening have already used it and created some amazing things that I'll be sharing in the future. But in the meantime, if you wanna see some of my competitions, some of the book covers, as well as get a free $99 upgrade, go to 99designs.com/tim. That's 99designs.com/tim. The Tim Ferriss Show is brought to you by ONNIT. I have used ONNIT products for years. If you look in my kitchen, in my garage, you will find Alpha Brain, chewable melatonin for resetting my clock when I'm traveling, kettlebells, battle ropes, maces, steel clubs. Sounds like a torture chamber, and it kind of is. It's a torture chamber for self-improvement [laughs] . And you can see all of my favorite gear at onnit.com/tim. That's O-N-N-I-T.com/tim, and you can also get a discount on any supplements, food products. I like Hemp Force. I like Alpha Brain. Check it all out, onnit.com/tim. Guten tag, my sexy little munchkins. This is Tim Ferriss in a very echo-laden wooden room on an island, and we'll be hearing more about that in a future episode with Chris Sacca. But in the meantime, I am so excited to present an episode that was very, very physically demanding. And this conversation you are about to listen to is with none other than Rick Rubin. And if you don't recognize that name, well, the bio could seem almost fabricated. It is so impressive. So he has been called the most important producer, that's music producer, of the last 20 years by MTV. And in 2007, he appeared on Time's 100 Most Influential People in the World list. Why would he appear on such a list? Well, if you could imagine, say, in the book world, that you named every author you could think of off the top of your head, all the name brand folks, and then found out that one agent and one editor were responsible for all of them, you'd be dumbfounded. And that's pretty much the case when you look at the discography of Rick Rubin. So he was the former co-president of Columbia Records. He was co-founder, along with Russell Simmons, of Def Jam Records and helped to popularize hip hop music by working with the Beastie Boys, LL Cool J, Public Enemy, Run-DMC, for instance. And I'm not gonna give the whole list because it's too long, but here are just some of the artists that he has worked with: Red Hot Chili Peppers, Beastie Boys, which I already mentioned, Johnny Cash, Slayer, Jay Z, and he appeared in the 99 Problems video. Danzig, Dixie Chicks, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, Black Sabbath, Slipknot, Metallica, AC/DC, Aerosmith, Linkin Park, Weezer [laughs] , The Cult, Neil Diamond, uh, Mick Jagger, System of a Down. It goes on and on, and the genres span from, say, Lady Gaga to ZZ Top to Shakira and everything in between. Kanye West, Eminem, you name it. So he's a fascinating guy. Uh, very much a Zen monk in his temperament. And I've gotten to know Rick over the last few years, and he insisted that we do the podcast in his sauna, which is a barrel sauna that makes your head melt. It is so intense. So this was a very challenging episode. I hope you get some laughs out of it. And, uh, what you will realize very quickly is you have to listen intently to Rick's answers. So Rick has sort of layers behind layers behind layers. So he'll tell you something, and you're like, "Wow, I'm not sure I actually get what that means." And then months later, it'll dawn on you, "Oh my God, there are so many different depths to that answer I didn't pick up on it the first time around." So [laughs] uh, you will have to interpret and ponder a lot of what Rick brings up. But I hope you enjoy this. Uh, I enjoyed it, although I nearly had heatstroke. And without further ado, here is Rick Rubin. Well, well, almost without further ado, folks, one more ado. I forgot to mention, if you are interested in music, be sure to check out the drumming episode of The Tim Ferriss Experiment, which is my TV show. It's been the number one TV season on iTunes now for some time, amazingly. But if you go to itunes.com/timferriss, two Rs, two Ss, you can see a bunch of bonus footage, all of the episodes, including the drumming episode, where I am trained by Stewart Copeland, the founding drummer of The Police, widely considered one of the top 10 drummers of all time. His teaching method resembles Doc from Back to the Future. It is an amazing experience, and I only had a few days with a gun against my head to train to then play to a sold-out auditorium as the drummer for Foreigner, uh, which was a nervous breakdown inducing, to say the least. So you can check it out, itunes.com/timferriss, two Rs and two Ss. And now, here is Rick Rubin. Rick, welcome to the show.

   6. RRRick Rubin5:46

      Thanks for having me.

   7. TFTim Ferriss5:48

      And this setting is somewhat unique, and I've been looking forward to it/fearing it ever since you first mentioned it to me. Uh, where are we right now?

   8. RRRick Rubin5:59

      Uh,

2. 5:59 – 7:57

   The Sauna and Ice Bath Setup

   1. RRRick Rubin5:59

      we are sitting in a sauna

   2. TFTim Ferriss6:01

      We are sitting in a very hot barrel sauna, and I was told that was [laughs] one of the conditions for having this conversation. And it's, uh, such an impressive barrel sauna, it's indoors, that I wanted to get the specs for it when I first saw it, and you have a heater that has to be, what, four times the size of the off-the-shelf heater that would go into such a heater.

   3. RRRick Rubin6:21

      Yeah.

   4. TFTim Ferriss6:22

      And it's-

   5. RRRick Rubin6:22

      It's a, it's a much bigger heater than for the size of the room that we're in.

   6. TFTim Ferriss6:25

      [laughs] And I'm sitting on the floor because I have such little confidence in my ability to withstand heat compared to you.

   7. RRRick Rubin6:32

      [laughs]

   8. TFTim Ferriss6:33

      But we do have the, the alternate, which is the bath just outside of this door. And, uh, you and I have gone back and forth, of course, quite a few times with this type of cycling, but what is right outside of this door?

   9. RRRick Rubin6:45

      A metal tub filled with ice.

   10. TFTim Ferriss6:47

       It is a metal tub about four feet, hmm, three and a half feet off the ground, full of ice. Uh, it looks like, if you were to say, what, a, a horse trough times two, something like that.

   11. RRRick Rubin6:58

       Something like that.

   12. TFTim Ferriss6:59

       [laughs] It's gotta be maximum low 50s, something like that?

   13. RRRick Rubin7:04

       I think it's about, today it's probably about 38 degrees.

   14. TFTim Ferriss7:06

       Oh my God. All right. So we have a, we have two mics on the floor I'm hoping won't explode or melt down. We have the H4 and the, and the H6, and we have, uh, water, ice, heat. Nothing could go wrong. I'm looking forward to it. So Rick, I was, uh, I was hoping perhaps we could start with, uh, a discussion of your physical transformation.

   15. RRRick Rubin7:29

       Okay, sure.

   16. TFTim Ferriss7:29

       And I'd love for you to perhaps just describe to people, I mean, you're, i- in my mind, the sort of the, the picture of, of fitness in a lot of ways now, and we've been paddleboarding before, and you summarily whoop my ass every time we go out. I'm always impressed.

   17. RRRick Rubin7:42

       [laughs]

   18. TFTim Ferriss7:43

       [laughs] There are a lot of things contributing to my, my lack of competency and fear there. But, uh, where, where were you, and how did you end up undergoing this tr- this physical transformation? Because you've lost how much weight at this point? How much fa- fat, I would say?

   19. RRRick Rubin7:57

       Um,

3. 7:57 – 22:55

   Losing 135 Pounds: Phil Maffetone and the Diet

   1. RRRick Rubin7:57

      I lost... At, at the peak moment, I lost, uh, between 135 and 140 pounds, and I always thought I was eating a healthy diet. I was vegan for 20-something years, and, um, all organic, vegan, really, you know, very strict with what I ate. And doing that, I got up to 318 pounds. Um, and I, I read a book by a guy named Stu Middleman, who ran 1,000 miles in 11 days, and I remember reading that and just thinking, "Wow." It's like, I can barely walk down the block, and this guy ran 1,000 miles in 11 days, and it just seemed so inspiring. So I read his book, and in the book, he talked about a guy named Phil Maffetone, who I'd never heard of before, and he said, i- in Stu's book, he gets to the part where he said, "Well, I met this doctor, Phil Maffetone, and he changed the way I trained, and he changed the way I ate, and he changed all these things. And then all of a sudden, I was able to do all these things." It's like, okay, I wanna find Phil Maffetone. So, um, I, I found him online. I sent him an email, and he was, um, living in Florida, and I asked if, if, you know, I could become his patient. And he said that, uh, he had just stopped treating patients and retired from being a doctor. It's like, that's terrible news.

   2. TFTim Ferriss9:26

      [laughs]

   3. RRRick Rubin9:26

      And, um, but the reason he decided to stop being a doctor was he decided to become a songwriter. And I said, "Oh, that's interesting. I'm, I'm involved-"

   4. TFTim Ferriss9:35

      Funny you should mention that. [laughs]

   5. RRRick Rubin9:37

      Yeah. It's like, "I'm involved in songwriting and, and the music world. Maybe we can trade. Maybe I can help you with your songwriting, and you can help me with my health and fitness." And he liked the idea, and we ended up meeting a few months later, and then, um, met several times and became friends. And then he eventually ended up moving into my house and lived in my house for about two years. And, um, I did everything he said, and I got much healthier. My metabolism got turned on. Um, the hours that I was sleeping shifted. I, for most of my life, I stayed up all night and slept most of the day. And, uh, when I was in college, I never took a class before 3:00 PM because I knew I wouldn't, I wouldn't go.

   6. TFTim Ferriss10:20

      And this was at NYU?

   7. RRRick Rubin10:21

      At NYU. So I'm used to living a night lifestyle. Even, I, I remember even in high school, I missed, I missed the first three classes of school so many times that, you know, it was really an issue. But it was just, I'd learned to be up all... I'd learned to be a late-night person. And, um, and it kinda suited the music life. Like, it worked well with my life. Um, and one of the first things that Phil suggested when we got together was, um... I slept with blackout blinds, and I usually didn't leave the house until the sun was setting. And he said, "From now on, when you wake up, I want you to go outside op- as soon as you wake up, open the blinds and go outside, naked if possible, and be in the sun for 20 minutes." And when he said it, I remember thinking he... it'd be the same as him saying, "I want you to jump off this, this ledge." You know? Like, it sounded like the most terrifying-

   8. TFTim Ferriss11:23

      [laughs]

   9. RRRick Rubin11:23

      Based on the way I lived my life, that just sounded terrible.

   10. TFTim Ferriss11:26

       Right.

   11. RRRick Rubin11:27

       Um-

   12. TFTim Ferriss11:29

       What time was he recommending that you wake up?

   13. RRRick Rubin11:31

       Well, f- f- he, by the time we started, it, it kept moving down, and it, and it, um, [clears throat] it went from 3:00 to probably noon to 11 to 9, and it just sorta happened naturally. And he knew that if I immediately went in the sun, that naturally my body would wanna start waking up earlier and going to sleep earlier. I, I, it was the first time ever that my circadian rhythm was kicking in. It never was, I never n- knew that there was such a thing or knew what that was. So he, um, he got me to connect to that. And I did everything he said, changed my diet, started eating some animal protein. I was, as I said, a devout vegan, so eggs and fish were the first things that I would eat. And even then, I never liked eggs and I never liked fish, so I ate them more like medicine. Um, and slowly I got healthier and healthier and healthier and, um, more and more fit, but I was still very heavy, and I was heavy for a long time.

   14. TFTim Ferriss12:39

       What age were you when you brought him into your house?

   15. RRRick Rubin12:42

       Uh-

   16. TFTim Ferriss12:43

       Or how long ago was this?

   17. RRRick Rubin12:44

       Yeah, I'm gonna guess, I'm gonna guess I was probably late 30s.

   18. TFTim Ferriss12:57

       And how, if you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

   19. RRRick Rubin12:59

       Yeah, like 10 years ago, 12 years-

   20. TFTim Ferriss13:01

       10 years ago

   21. RRRick Rubin13:01

       ... 10, 12 years ago, something like that.

   22. TFTim Ferriss13:03

       So you, you were changing your diet. What were some of the other things that, uh, he had you change that, uh-

   23. RRRick Rubin13:08

       He had me do, um, 20 minutes of l- uh, low heart rate exercise, aerobic activity every day. And, um, he had me start wearing a heart rate monitor. And my heart rate, I would get into... You know, for me, walking up a flight of stairs would be an aerobic activity, so I had to really watch what I was doing to, to stay, or, or, I, sorry-

   24. TFTim Ferriss13:35

       An anaerobic

   25. RRRick Rubin13:35

       ... an anaerobic activity, yeah. So I had to work hard to stay in the anaerobic space.

   26. TFTim Ferriss13:43

       Or the aerobic space, you mean?

   27. RRRick Rubin13:44

       In the aerobic space. [laughs]

   28. TFTim Ferriss13:46

       [laughs] Below that is anaerobic threshold.

   29. RRRick Rubin13:47

       It's getting hot in here.

   30. TFTim Ferriss13:48

       Yeah, it is getting hot in here. [laughs]
4. 22:55 – 24:27

   What a Producer Does and Becoming One

   1. RRRick Rubin22:55

      I don't know how to answer that question.

   2. TFTim Ferriss22:56

      You don't know how to answer it?

   3. RRRick Rubin22:57

      No.

   4. TFTim Ferriss22:58

      [laughs] So what, uh, what does a... Let's, uh, perhaps start with definitions then. What does a music producer do, for those people not familiar with it?

   5. RRRick Rubin23:06

      Well, I don't know what, I don't know what music producers do.

   6. TFTim Ferriss23:09

      Okay.

   7. RRRick Rubin23:09

      I could tell you, I can tell you what I do.

   8. TFTim Ferriss23:11

      Okay, let's do that.

   9. RRRick Rubin23:12

      Uh, which is I help get the best performance from an artist, help, help them pick their material or develop their material, and help set the course for the direction of what they're doing creatively.

   10. TFTim Ferriss23:32

       And, uh, how did you end up initially becoming involved with that type of work?

   11. RRRick Rubin23:41

       Um, I don't know how you usually do, and, uh, I guess you can do it in many different ways. Some people might start as a recording engineer and then graduate to a record producer. Some people might be successful artists and then transition into being record producers. Um, in my case, I was just really a fan of music, and I come at it from the point of view of being a fan.

   12. TFTim Ferriss24:08

       What did you study at NYU?

   13. RRRick Rubin24:11

       I started as a philosophy major, and then after two years I switched to film and television because all of my friends were in film and television, and it just seemed like more fun.

   14. TFTim Ferriss24:22

       Was it more fun?

   15. RRRick Rubin24:23

       It was.

   16. TFTim Ferriss24:26

       Uh,

5. 24:27 – 31:39

   Letting Artists Discover Their Voice

   1. TFTim Ferriss24:27

      I think it's Natalie Mainer of the, the Dixie Chicks-

   2. RRRick Rubin24:30

      Yeah

   3. TFTim Ferriss24:30

      ... it's said, and this is paraphrasing, but that you let music be discovered, not manufactured. And this, this, uh, what does she mean by that or what do you think she means by that?

   4. RRRick Rubin24:40

      Well, we have a whole process. Depen- uh, you know, it's different for every artist, but, um, we, we try to go on a journey and let the artist discover who they are, and in the process, um, the best art comes from them. It, it's like getting to be their true selves and trying to take away all of the, um... There's so many things that get in the way of the artistic process. For example, any commercial considerations usually get in the way. If you're thinking about making music that's gonna get on the radio, chances are you won't be using your, your own voice to its, um, most potent, um, most singular, um, you know, finding the, what your personal gift is. Um, so that's one of the, that's one of many things. Just, it's, uh, getting closer to the source and not being distracted by any, uh, any nonsense that would get in the way of the art being as good as it could be.

   5. TFTim Ferriss26:07

      What are other things that get in the way of artists producing their best work?

   6. RRRick Rubin26:12

      Mm, concern about what other people think, uh, competition, wanting to do better than someone else. Um, let's see. What other things? Self-doubt, um, ego.

   7. TFTim Ferriss26:34

      What manifestation of ego?

   8. RRRick Rubin26:36

      Um, s- if someone thinks that everything they do is great, they might not be willing to edit themselves enough or work hard enough at, um, you know, "If, if I can write, if I could write 10 great songs in five minutes each, and those are the best songs, and I'm just gonna record them and put them out," then those might not be as good as the ones that you develop over a longer period of time, for example.

   9. TFTim Ferriss27:03

      Mm-hmm.

   10. RRRick Rubin27:04

       That might be an egotistical artist who thinks, "Everything I do is just great."

   11. TFTim Ferriss27:07

       When you have the opposite, when you have an artist who is doubting themselves, how do you, uh, help them through that?

   12. RRRick Rubin27:15

       Um-

   13. TFTim Ferriss27:16

       Or what is, uh, what do you recommend?

   14. RRRick Rubin27:18

       Yeah.

   15. TFTim Ferriss27:20

       I have a lot, I mean, I, just speaking personally, I, I have continuous self-doubt- [chuckles]

   16. RRRick Rubin27:25

       Mm-hmm

   17. TFTim Ferriss27:25

       ... as a writer, I decide.

   18. RRRick Rubin27:26

       Yeah, I think most, I think most artists do. That's more the, more typically self-doubt is the case. Um, I think if your goal is to be better than you were, you know, if you're competing only with yourself, it's a more realistic, um, it's a more realistic place to be. You know, if you say, "I'm, I don't wanna write songs unless I could write songs better than The Beatles," it's, it's a hard road. But if you say, "I wanna write a better song tomorrow than the song I wrote yesterday," that's a realistic, that's something that can be done. And if you write a better song than you wrote yesterday every day, then you continue to get better and better and better, and it really is small steps. And, um, and also trying not to, um, trying not to think too much 'cause so much of it is more of a, um, the job is, it's more emotion and heart work than it is head work. Like, the, the head comes in after to look at what the heart has presented and to organize it, but the initial inspiration comes from a different place, and it's not the head, and it's not an intellectual activity. It's, uh, it's more of a, um, it's more inspiration. So the key first is to really s- do whatever activities you can to tune into inspiration, and things like meditating help. And, um, diving into art in general, doesn't have to be even your modality. I mean, going to museums and looking at beautiful art can help you write better songs, reading great novels, reading great, great works of art. Um, seeing a great movie could inspire a great song, reading poetry. Um, so I would say being in, submerging yourself in great art, and the, the more you can do to get out of the mode of competition where you're looking at what other people are doing and wanting to be better than them or be inspired by them. I'd say the only, the only way to use the inspiration of other ar- artists is if you submerge yourself in the greatest works of all time, which is a great thing to do. You know, like, if you listen to the greatest music ever made, that would be a better, uh, a better way to work through to find your own voice to matter today than listening to what's on the radio now and thinking, "I wanna, you know, compete with this."

   19. TFTim Ferriss30:28

       Right.

   20. RRRick Rubin30:28

       So it's more like a- Stepping back and looking at a, a, a bigger picture than what's going on at the moment.

   21. TFTim Ferriss30:36

       As someone, uh, speaking as someone who is not very well-versed with music, I don't feel highly literate when it comes to music. I enjoy music, but, uh, hanging out with, with you and Neil Strauss, certainly, I, I feel like I'm lacking perhaps a vocabulary to, uh, and a lot of references. Are there any... For people who feel like they're in my shoes, are there any particular albums, uh, that you would, you could offer as a, as a starting point? Not the end-all, be-all, but just as a, as a starting point for appreciating, uh, good world-class contemporary music, meaning not necessarily, could be classical music, but w- are there any recommendations you would give?

   22. RRRick Rubin31:16

       Yeah, I would, I would just start by listening to the, the greats, which you can look at, like, um, if you look at, search online for Mojo's top 100 albums of all time, or Rolling Stone's top 100 albums, or, um, any trusted source's top 100 albums, and start listening to what, you know, what are, what are considered the greats. It's a good place to start.

6. 31:39 – 40:35

   Inspiration from Nature and the Range of Genres

   1. TFTim Ferriss31:39

      And, uh, are, are there any particular stories that you have that come to mind of, uh, experiences outside of the medium of music, say a specific film or a specific trip or a specific book that catalyzed a breakthrough m- in the work that you did?

   2. RRRick Rubin31:59

      Let me think about that for a sec. Yeah, I, I wouldn't say breakthrough, um, because it's a more, it's a more personal thing than that, so it doesn't come as much from the outside.

   3. TFTim Ferriss32:16

      Mm-hmm.

   4. RRRick Rubin32:17

      But I get inspiration every day, you know, every day from either what I'm reading or watching a sunset or the, you know, the w- noticing the amount of birds that fly overhead and what they look like and their different shapes and paying attention or hearing the sound of the waves. Um, all of those things speak to, or looking at the horizon, um, they all speak to me, and, um, so much of the work we try to do is to create something with the natural balance that we see in nature. That, that's sort of the per- the perfect version of, you know, if you can make a piece of music that can take your breath away as much as a beautiful sunset, you've done well. So, um, you know, any opportunity to see dolphins swim or see, you know, see something beautiful that's not your run-of-the-mill experience, or even could be a beautiful cloud-filled sky, um, or, you know, on a particularly clear night when you can really see lots of stars. Those are, they're all inspiring things and, um, help turn on the muse of recognizing, um, kind of a, a, a greater vision of either what's possible or what's beautiful than, you know, something that you see in a magazine that's, you know, advertisement that they're to entice you to buy it.

   5. TFTim Ferriss33:55

      [laughs] Right. And, uh, was it... Can you talk a little bit about the, when you realized that you were good at working with musicians or music? When did, uh, uh-

   6. RRRick Rubin34:07

      When did that happen?

   7. TFTim Ferriss34:08

      Yeah, when did that happen? And, and are there any particular, whether it's instances or artists where you're like, "Wow, I think I might actually have a knack for this"?

   8. RRRick Rubin34:16

      Well, I started g- Right from the beginning, I started having a lot of success, and it, and it, it, um... I did it, I, I really made music as a hobby while I was in college, and thought I would have a real job, and then I would make music as my hobby. And, um, and I thought I would have a job to support my music habit. And then the first album I produced was, um, by LL Cool J. He was 16 at the time, and I think it cost us about $8,000 to record, and sold 900,000 copies.

   9. TFTim Ferriss34:49

      [laughs]

   10. RRRick Rubin34:49

       And that was a good start.

   11. TFTim Ferriss34:51

       That is a good start.

   12. RRRick Rubin34:51

       And then the second one was, um, Beastie Boys, which I think sold, I don't know, 9 or 10 million. And, um, from then on, like, just a lot of records, sold a lot right from the beginning. So it, um, it bec- I w- I'll say it took a long time for me to understand that that doesn't always happen, you know? [laughs]

   13. TFTim Ferriss35:18

       [laughs]

   14. RRRick Rubin35:18

       It was an unusual series of events, but after a long time of having a lot, working with a lot of artists and seeing a lot of success, it, it became clear that, um, I could support artists in doing good work, and people seemed to appreciate it.

   15. TFTim Ferriss35:33

       What are, what are some of the ways that, uh... What are some of the things or characteristics that make you perhaps different from other people who work with musicians?

   16. RRRick Rubin35:45

       H- It's hard to know, 'cause I, I don't know so well what other people do, but I, I, I don't think we do the same thing. I, I think, um, there are some producers who, um, make beats for artists, and, um, there was a time that I did that early in, in, early in my career, I did that. Um, still on occasion will do it if, you know, if it, if it makes sense with the, the project that I'm doing. Um, I think it's unusual that I get to work in lots of different genres and get to make heavy metal records and rap records and country records and spiritual records, all d- all different kinds. S- I think that's unusual and just lucky, and I think that might come from the fact that I come from it from that fan perspective, and I, I like all kinds of music and I get to, um- examine them and, and, and the fact that I've been able to work on so many different kinds of music over such a long period of time gives me a good perspective, 'cause when I come into a new project, it's not... It's, it's rare that I'm going to the studio to work on another of what I was just working on. So let's say, for example, I was a heavy metal producer, and all I did for the last 30 years was produce heavy metal. I don't know how fresh those records would be today. But now, if I get to produce a heavy metal record, like the last one I did, I guess, would be the last Black Sabbath album, it was really fun, 'cause I hadn't made a record like that in a long time, and, and it was a brand-new experience. And I was-

   17. TFTim Ferriss37:16

       That's, uh, 13?

   18. RRRick Rubin37:17

       13 was the last one, yeah. And, um, that was a great experience, really fun. Never worked with those guys before, and we had a great time.

   19. TFTim Ferriss37:25

       So I'm not sure I ever told you the first time I ever saw the name Rick Rubin was actually on the inside of a, an audio cassette. It was the first heavy metal album I ever bought, which was Reign in Blood.

   20. RRRick Rubin37:35

       Oh, that's a good one.

   21. TFTim Ferriss37:35

       [laughs] And I just remember-

   22. RRRick Rubin37:37

       That's a really good one

   23. TFTim Ferriss37:38

       ... not having... This is be- pre-internet, of course.

   24. RRRick Rubin37:40

       Yes.

   25. TFTim Ferriss37:41

       And I, I was just told by my friends, "You have to, you will love heavy metal. You should listen to heavy metal."

   26. RRRick Rubin37:47

       Yeah.

   27. TFTim Ferriss37:47

       And I asked what the hardest heavy metal was-

   28. RRRick Rubin37:49

       Yeah

   29. TFTim Ferriss37:49

       ... that could possibly be found, and Reign in Blood came, uh, to the lips of those I asked. And, uh, [laughs] and I just remember listening to, I think it's "Angel of Death," the first track on that, and going, "Oh my God, what have I gotten myself into?"

   30. RRRick Rubin38:06

       Yeah.
7. 40:35 – 46:49

   Listening to Artists, Calm, and Overwhelm

   1. RRRick Rubin40:35

      Yeah, I would say it's, it's really different with every single artist, and it's, um... You spend time with the artist. You get to know them. And if you, if you listen to people, if you really listen to what people say, usually they, um, they tell you everything. If you really listen and pay attention to what people are saying, they'll let you know a lot of stuff. And, um, I just really pay attention to what people say, and through that, I can then reflect back, um, thoughts that they've told me about themselves that they don't know about themselves [laughs]

   2. TFTim Ferriss41:23

      [laughs]

   3. RRRick Rubin41:24

      And, um, allow them to unlock those doors to, to get to the places they wanna go artistically.

   4. TFTim Ferriss41:33

      Are there any particular examples of that or, uh, or a story that you could share?

   5. RRRick Rubin41:38

      Hmm. Um, the f- the first story that comes to mind isn't related to my music work, but it's related to our friend Neil, and, um, just the, the journey, the journey that led to his new book that, that's about to come out, um, started through him complaining about something going on in his life that, uh, he thought was something that he wanted in his life. And I don't think that he knew that the thing that he wanted was making him unhappy.

   6. TFTim Ferriss42:23

      Mm-hmm.

   7. RRRick Rubin42:24

      And through that conversation, he decided to examine that. So that'd be an example. It'd be the sa- same thing as that. That's the first one that came to mind-

   8. TFTim Ferriss42:34

      Yeah

   9. RRRick Rubin42:34

      ... maybe because we both know Neil.

   10. TFTim Ferriss42:35

       Right. Uh, now you seem very, obviously, philosophical, uh, philosophically minded, very calm. Uh, and, uh, I should thank you also. Uh, you and a friend named Chase Jarvis, actually, uh, he's a world-class photographer, are the people who got me into meditation, uh, consistently with TM.

   11. RRRick Rubin42:56

       Great.

   12. TFTim Ferriss42:56

       So thank you for that. But have you always been very calm and, uh, I mean, does... You seem very unperturbed, very unfazed by, by anything that I've observed. [laughs] Is that, is that, is, is that an illusion? Is, or have you always been that way?

   13. RRRick Rubin43:13

       Um, I'm very lucky in that I learned to meditate when I was young. So I started meditating when I was 14, and I meditated, um, a lot for a long time, and through that, I think it has really, um, it, even, even though I'm not always calm, uh, on the inside, it has at least given me an air of calm and maybe, uh, comparative to other people, I'm probably calm. I know sometimes internally I can get, um, disrupted.

   14. TFTim Ferriss43:53

       [laughs] What do you do when you get disrupted?

   15. RRRick Rubin43:56

       Uh, I try to do something like o-often, um, exercise will make me feel better. Meditating will make me feel better. Ice bath is the greatest of all. Um-

   16. TFTim Ferriss44:12

       King of mood elevators.

   17. RRRick Rubin44:13

       It's just the m-magic. Sauna/ice back and forth. At the end of, at the end of the fourth or fifth or sixth round of being in an ice tub, there is nothing in the world that bothers you.

   18. TFTim Ferriss44:24

       [laughs] It's true. It's very true.

   19. RRRick Rubin44:26

       It's just like the world's a great place.

   20. TFTim Ferriss44:28

       [laughs] What d- what are the types of things that, uh, disrupt you? Are there any particular patterns?

   21. RRRick Rubin44:43

       Hmm. I would say usually, um, like work things or political related, you know, political type things related to work could really bother me and just, um, n- they don't fit into my, into my realm of, uh, the way I look at life. So th- so I get surprised by those things, and-

   22. TFTim Ferriss45:11

       Just having to manage, say, the various relationships on the, uh, within a, a label or something like that?

   23. RRRick Rubin45:18

       Yeah. I would say more like dealing with business people-

   24. TFTim Ferriss45:21

       Mm-hmm

   25. RRRick Rubin45:21

       ...can, can often like, "Wow, you really think that? You really want to do things that way?" It's like s-surprising.

   26. TFTim Ferriss45:28

       [laughs] How do you... Uh, how have you designed... What, what are some of the ways in which you've designed your life to, say, not have to contend with as much of that as possible?

   27. RRRick Rubin45:45

       Well, I always, um, f- r-really try to s-focus my life around art. So I consider my job, even though there are other parts of my job, I consider my real job, the reason I'm here, is to sit with artists, talk to artists, help artists be better at what they do. Um, and if I'm not doing it with an artist, I'm doing it with something else. So I, my goal is to make things as good as they could be, either make, um, what-whatever it is. I mean, I've, I'm to the point of where I've gone in to friend, visit friends in their office, and I rearrange the furniture in their office-

   28. TFTim Ferriss46:33

       [laughs]

   29. RRRick Rubin46:33

       ...because I'm insane. [laughs] You know, "It would really look better if you, you know, if you move these things this way, and you could see the sun coming in through the window here, and if you open these blinds and turn this around, this place would feel much more comfortable."

8. 46:49 – 56:49

   Defining Success and Recommended Books

   1. TFTim Ferriss46:49

      When you think of the word successful, who's the first person who comes to mind?

   2. RRRick Rubin47:02

      It's not, it's not such an easy question to answer because, I mean, so many things go into what makes someone successful.

   3. TFTim Ferriss47:09

      What are some of those things?

   4. RRRick Rubin47:11

      Um, I would start with, um, somebody who's happy. You know, I know a, a great many people who are financially successful and not happy, so I would rule all them out to start with. Um, let's see. It's not coming so easily. I have to think about that, and we'll come back to it.

   5. TFTim Ferriss47:36

      We can come back to it.

   6. RRRick Rubin47:37

      Yeah.

   7. TFTim Ferriss47:39

      How do you... This is a big question, but I'll, I'll ask a very self-interested question. So I'm thirty-seven. Of course, we've both spent a lot of time around Neil. [laughs]

   8. RRRick Rubin47:47

      Mm-hmm.

   9. TFTim Ferriss47:47

      And [laughs] I c- I'm not gonna spoil the, uh, the secret because Neil would have go into apoplectic shock, but, uh, the next book I'm looking forward to-

   10. RRRick Rubin47:55

       Oh, I just thought of who-

   11. TFTim Ferriss47:57

       Oh, you did?

   12. RRRick Rubin47:57

       ...a couple of examples of people who are successful.

   13. TFTim Ferriss47:59

       Let's do it.

   14. RRRick Rubin48:00

       A g- a good example of someone who's successful is Don Wildman, our friend from the beach. He's-

   15. TFTim Ferriss48:05

       Ah, who I s- whom I still have not met.

   16. RRRick Rubin48:06

       Yeah. Okay. He's eighty-

   17. TFTim Ferriss48:07

       Amazing

   18. RRRick Rubin48:07

       ...he's eighty years old. He's, um, did twenty-three pull-ups on the beach the other day. He's, uh, in the Senior Olympics. He retired in his fifties because he wanted to spend his days enjoying life and exercising. And, um, he's one of the most inspiring, uplifting, um, great, successful people on so many levels, on so many levels.

   19. TFTim Ferriss48:40

       Mm-hmm.

   20. RRRick Rubin48:41

       Um, he'd be, he'd be probably the first one I think of. Laird's another great example of someone who I would think of as successful. He's a successful human being.

   21. TFTim Ferriss48:50

       And this is L- Laird Hamilton

   22. RRRick Rubin48:52

       Laird Hamilton. Um-

   23. TFTim Ferriss48:53

       For those people who are not familiar with, with Laird, uh, pretty much, I'd say w- uh, uncontroversially thought of as the king of big wave surfing, uh, among, among other things.

   24. RRRick Rubin49:05

       Yeah. I mean, w- it, it's not uncommon to hear him referred to as the greatest athlete on Earth. Um, he's r- real... You know, so many athletes of so many disciplines think of him as the best athlete. [laughs]

   25. TFTim Ferriss49:17

       Also a king of, of steamer ands [laughs] and ice baths.

   26. RRRick Rubin49:22

       I first started doing the sauna and the ice with Laird. [coughs] Anyway, successful, someone who enjoys their life, um, is great at what they do, is curious and continually pushing forward and wanting to be better than they were yesterday without a, uh, without beating themselves up about it.

   27. TFTim Ferriss49:47

       And w- what are, uh, s- uh, Don, Don is, is in... His name has come up so many times. What, what are some of the things that you've learned or picked up from him and, uh, adopted for yourself?

   28. RRRick Rubin50:01

       He, he's just seems so positive and so, um, it, nothing, it seems like nothing gets to him. He's, um... He can, he can push through anything that's in his way, and all the time with a smile on his face and, um, a positive outlook and, uh, and a curious nature. You know how... I don't know how many people that are 80 that, uh, every time you meet them, talk, tell you, you know, teach you something about something new they've learned because they're so curious about a great article or this great book, and you have to read this book, and you have to go to see this movie, and you have to do this. And, um, you know, we just came back from snowboarding in Alaska, and you gotta go see. It was like it was unbelievable, and just it's, it, he's got a wild life.

   29. TFTim Ferriss50:56

       That's inspiring. I've, I've, in the last, I'd say, three or four years, particularly after my, my health scare last year with Lyme disease and everything that came of that, tried to surround myself not just with the extremely young athletes and performers, but, uh, for instance, this, uh, Polish gentleman and his wife, both of whom are world record holders in Olympic weightlifting. But what's, what's so fascinating is how re- relatively injury-free and mobile they still are, and they're in their, I'd say, early 60s at this point.

   30. RRRick Rubin51:28

       Amazing.
9. 56:49 – 59:53

   Working with Jay-Z on 99 Problems

   1. TFTim Ferriss56:49

      The, uh, your cameo in, uh, 99 Problems.

   2. RRRick Rubin56:53

      Yes.

   3. TFTim Ferriss56:54

      How did that come about?

   4. RRRick Rubin56:56

      Uh, I had produced a song for Jay, and then when it was time to make the video, um, a friend of mine, Mark Romanek, who's a great video maker, made the video. And, um, I think it was Mark's idea. He said, "Why don't we get Rick in the video?" And Jay agreed, and then they called and asked if I would come. And I love Jay. He's a really great guy, and I thought it would be fun.

   5. TFTim Ferriss57:19

      Uh, w- what, uh, what are you proudest of as it relates to that track?

   6. RRRick Rubin57:28

      Um...

   7. TFTim Ferriss57:31

      If it comes to mind. I know you've worked-

   8. RRRick Rubin57:32

      Yeah, I think-

   9. TFTim Ferriss57:32

      ... with a lot of tracks.

   10. RRRick Rubin57:33

       Yeah, I think that, uh, just the fact that Jay is one of the most, you know, important artists in the world, and that that's one of his most popular songs, and that we got to do it together is really great.

   11. TFTim Ferriss57:45

       How were you... H- how did you become involved with that song? Or were you involved with the entire album?

   12. RRRick Rubin57:50

       Um, I was involved with that song. We went into the studio together. He... It was his last, it was going to be his last album, The Black Album, his retirement album, and he asked his 10 favorite producers to each do one song. And we went into the studio. That was the first time we worked together, and we, um, we spent a week in the studio trying different things and then eventually came upon this track and, uh, in the experimentation, and he loved it. And then the, the words came to him sort of magically. He sat in the back of the room listening to the track over and over and over again, and after about a half hour jumped up and said, "I've got it," and ran to the other room and did the vocals.

   13. TFTim Ferriss58:33

       [laughs] I, I heard-

   14. RRRick Rubin58:35

       Without writing anything down.

   15. TFTim Ferriss58:37

       So I've heard this about him before, where, uh, at some point I, I heard a story that he, he wrote basically gibberish down on a piece of paper because someone trying to supervise him earlier in his career was so worried that he wasn't taking the recording session seriously. But in fact, he didn't write anything down at all. It was just to put them at ease [laughs] -

   16. RRRick Rubin58:55

       Yeah

   17. TFTim Ferriss58:55

       ... and then freestyled the entire thing. Is that generally how he operates?

   18. RRRick Rubin58:59

       That's how he does it, yeah.

   19. TFTim Ferriss59:01

       That's exciting.

   20. RRRick Rubin59:01

       Very talented.

   21. TFTim Ferriss59:02

       Mind-boggling.

   22. RRRick Rubin59:03

       Yeah. He's super talented and just a great, great person. Really one of my favorite people.

   23. TFTim Ferriss59:09

       What do you like about him?

   24. RRRick Rubin59:11

       Uh, everything. He's, uh, humble. He's honest. He's, um, he's a deep soul, you know. He looks at things deeply, understands them deeply, is caring, and, um, he's just a, you know, first-rate person. I think I'm gonna get in the ice.

   25. TFTim Ferriss59:31

       All right. Time to jump into the ice.

   26. RRRick Rubin59:33

       And we'll hit pause.

   27. TFTim Ferriss59:34

       [laughs] Hit pause, right. [laughs]

   28. RRRick Rubin59:39

       [grunts] Geez.

   29. TFTim Ferriss59:43

       [laughs]

   30. RRRick Rubin59:44

       Crazy.
10. 59:53 – 1:10:02

    Sauna, Ice Baths and Underwater Training

    1. TFTim Ferriss59:53

       It's now lower than the minimum measurement, which is 40 degrees. So I feel like all my skin below my neck is just contracted by 30%.

    2. RRRick Rubin1:00:05

       [laughs]

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:00:05

       It's a good feeling. [laughs] And, uh, you, you'd mentioned this briefly when we were coming in, but who is, who is the person who introduced you to using a sauna?

    4. RRRick Rubin1:00:14

       Yeah. The fir- the first sauna that I was ever in was, uh, a f- a local friend of ours, Chris Chelios, who's a hockey player, and he was the, um, he had the longest hockey caree- professional hockey career of, of anyone ever. He continued playing professionally until he was 48 years old, and, um, all the people on the other teams that he was facing at the time were in their 20s, so he's really an unbelievable athlete. And he, um, has done sauna every day of his life for the last, you know, since he's been playing, and he could... He believes the reason he had the longevity in the sport, and the reason he never got sick and was able to never miss a game And to play for, you know, such a long career was all due to the sauna every day

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:01:07

       And he used, uh, hot sauna. He was not alternating between hot and cold?

    6. RRRick Rubin1:01:12

       He did hot and cold, but he wouldn't necessarily always use an ice bath. He would do cold showers if not, um... But he would do 15 or 20 minutes in the sauna, cold shower, 15 or 20 minutes in the sauna, round and round.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:01:26

       And how were you introduced to the ice baths?

    8. RRRick Rubin1:01:29

       Uh, the ice baths came from, um, Joaquim Noah, who's, um, my girlfriend's nephew, and he, um, he bought an ice tub for Laird because he s- Laird started doing the sauna after, after Chris started the sauna, uh, with our group. We would do it on the beach. Chris has a sauna on the beach, so we would do the sauna and even in the wintertime, then jump into the ocean, and that was how he did the hot and the cold. And then Joaquim suggested we started using the ice tub. Um, and then we started doing that, and that was... It took it to a whole new level.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:02:10

       And you've done some very unusual training that sounds terrifying to me underwater, right? And, and, or do you continue to do the-

    10. RRRick Rubin1:02:19

        Yeah, that's-

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:02:19

        ... underwater training with weights?

    12. RRRick Rubin1:02:20

        Yeah, that's something that we do with Laird. We'll do, like, um, 50-pound dumbbells 14 feet underwater, and, um, it's, it's an interesting experience. It's a lot like getting into the ice bath. Like, if you're not used to getting into an ice bath, most people, if you say, "Get into a tub of ice," they, they, uh, react negatively. [laughs]

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:02:41

        They panic. [laughs]

    14. RRRick Rubin1:02:42

        They panic. And when you're underwater holding weights, your brain goes crazy, and it, it, you know, relates to, oh, it's like weight underwater, you die. That's like, uh, cement shoes.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:02:56

        Right. [laughs]

    16. RRRick Rubin1:02:56

        And, um, so we do all these different exercise weights underwater, and it's really interesting.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:03:02

        And do you... What do some of those... And keep in mind, folks, do this [laughs] don't do this without supervision. Talk to your doctor. But the, uh, what, what does the technique look like or an example?

    18. RRRick Rubin1:03:13

        Well, it started, it started, um... Laird has a pool that you can start in the shallow end and walk down to the deep end, and then up the center of the pool there's a staircase in underwater. So it started with holding heavy weights, walking from the shallow end into the deep end, and obviously there's a point where you have to take a big breath and hold it, and then you walk down into the deep end, and then you turn around and you walk up the stairs and make it before you run out of breath. And each time you do it, you would make wider and wider circles and get used to being under longer and longer. And then we started adding, once we were completely submerged, start adding maybe curls or shoulder presses, um, and doing those underwater. And then one day, after we'd been doing this for about a year, Laird came into the, uh, the gym the next day and he said, "I had a dream last night that if we use lighter weights, they'll be heavy enough to keep us down, but light enough where we could get up, where we could jump up to the top if we needed to."

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:04:25

        In, in, in the deep end?

    20. RRRick Rubin1:04:26

        In the deep end. So you'd be down in the deep end. So now instead of doing one rep and recovering, which was all we could do before, you know, you could do one round basically, and then be in the shallow end and recover. Um, we started doing these exercises jumping. So we'd start with maybe 15-pound dumbbells, and you would hold two 15-pound dumbbells, jump into the deep end, sink to the bottom, um, and jump as hard as you can, just throw your arms over your head, and then kind of do one stroke pulling your arms down to your sides h- while holding the dumbbells, and it was just enough to get your head out, and you'd gasp for a breath, and then you'd sink.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:05:19

        [laughs]

    22. RRRick Rubin1:05:20

        And we would do that over and over and over again. And, you know, at first, maybe the, the goal would be to try to get 10 in a row, and it'd be really a big deal when we could do 10 in a row. And then, you know, over time, we worked up to being able to do 100 in a row, and then doing it with heavier weights. And then since then, Laird's come up with maybe, I don't know, 50 different exercises that we do with weights underwater, either underwater or in water, and, um, it's wild.

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:05:50

        He, he dreams up some really fascinating, not only exercises, but devices. Uh-

    24. RRRick Rubin1:05:54

        Yeah, he's amazing

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:05:54

        ... for those people who haven't seen the, the foil board, is that what it is? With the-

    26. RRRick Rubin1:05:57

        The foil board's amazing

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:05:58

        ... the foil board, yeah. So people can Google foil board.

    28. RRRick Rubin1:06:01

        He, he invented standup paddling, really. You know, he invented standup paddling. He invented tow-in surfing. Um, he's an amazing... He's got an amazing, um, analytical mind.

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:06:15

        Do you think, uh, did he develop that in any particular way?

    30. RRRick Rubin1:06:19

        The mind?
11. 1:10:02 – 1:13:08

    Breaking Down the Impossible

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:10:02

       What, uh, how do you, just as Laird did for you, when you are working with an artist who believes they can't do something or is just hitting that wall, what are some of the ways that you help them get past that?

    2. RRRick Rubin1:10:17

       Um, usually I'll give them, um, like homework, like a, a small doable task. I'll give you an example. There was an artist I was working with recently who was, who hadn't made an album in a long time and was struggling with, struggling with finishing anything, and, um, and just had this like a, it was a version of a writer's block, but it was a, um... I don't know, hard to explain what it was. But I would give him very doable homework assignments that almost seemed like a joke. You know, like, "T- tonight I want you to write one wor- you know, one word in this song that needs five lines that you can't finish. I just want one word that you like by tomorrow. Do you think you can come up with one word?" And usually he'd be like, "Yeah, I think I can do one word." And then just very quickly by chip, by breaking it down into pieces like I learned from Laird, and chipping away, um, one step at a time, you can, you can really get through anything.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:11:28

       Yeah. Breaking it down into-

    4. RRRick Rubin1:11:30

       Yeah. I remember-

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:11:31

       ... manageable bites

    6. RRRick Rubin1:11:31

       ... on the beach we had a, um, we had a, a zip line. Not, not a zip line, a, um, you know, the, the, the beam that you balance on.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:11:43

       Oh, a slack line.

    8. RRRick Rubin1:11:43

       Slack line. And, um, Laird was pretty good at it in the beginning but had never done it before, and he would work for hours. He would just be there hour after hour after hour falling off and getting back on, falling off and getting back on. And then of all of the group of people, he was by far the first one who was able to do it, and it wasn't because he just naturally was gifted at it. He's, he knows that anything he sets his mind to learn to do, if he focuses and just continues to, you know, not mind falling off and not thinking he's supposed to be good out of the box, learning to be able to do it, that's how you learn things. So it's, I, I, I also will say that after having the weight problem that I had for so long and then finally finding the solution and making the change, it really makes me believe that anything's possible. You know, we can learn, we can train ourselves to do absolutely anything. It's really just getting the right information. If we get, get the right information, we can learn to do anything, whatever it is. Now, it doesn't mean we can necessarily, um, be the best in the world at something, but we can be our best at that thing.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:12:59

       Right, the best version of ourselves.

    10. RRRick Rubin1:13:01

        Yeah. And do things that never dreamed of as poss- you know, possible for us.

12. 1:13:08 – 1:20:51

    Advice to Younger Selves, Perfectionism, and Closing

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:13:08

       What, uh, what advice would you give, and I'll ask this for a couple of different ages, but, uh, I'll start with, uh, your 20-year-old self. What advice would you give your 20-year-old self, if any?

    2. RRRick Rubin1:13:23

       Try to have more fun.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:13:27

       Why do you think you weren't having as much fun as you could have at that point?

    4. RRRick Rubin1:13:32

       Hmm. I think I was more driven and, um... F- I, I don't know. I wanna say almost like I felt like I had something to prove. I don't know if I did have something to prove, but it felt like, I felt like, um, doing the work was the most important thing in the world as opposed to doing the work and enjoying the process and f- you know, feeling what it was f- being able to step back and see what it was. You know, not just be so deeply into it that, um... You know, I feel like I missed a lot of years of my life because I was just in a dark room working on music, you know, seven days a week for probably 20 years.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:14:21

       Wow. I, I recall, that makes me think of a story from, uh, Neil Gaiman, the writer, when he, I think he was with the success of Sandman, and he was in a huge line of readers who wanted signatures and fans who wanted to tell him stories. And, uh, Stephen King pulled him aside and just said, "Enjoy it." [laughs]

    6. RRRick Rubin1:14:40

       Yeah.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:14:41

       And he didn't. He didn't, uh... He was too caught up in the, in the flow. Uh, what about your 30-year-old self? What advice would you give to your 30-year-old self?

    8. RRRick Rubin1:14:57

       I guess, um, I would probably tell myself something that I, that still might apply to me today. Um, I wouldn't have known it at all then. I know it now, I just, still it's not second nature. But, um, to be kinder to myself 'cause I, I think I beat myself up a lot and, um, because I expect a lot from myself, I'll be hard on myself. And, um, I don't know that I'm doing anyone any good by doing that.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:15:27

       [sighs] Yeah, that's advice that I need to [laughs] to give myself as well. When do you tend to beat yourself up?

    10. RRRick Rubin1:15:36

        Hmm.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:15:38

        I, I've s- I've, I've made somewhat of a, uh, sport of it it would seem.

    12. RRRick Rubin1:15:43

        Yeah. It, it, it can happen, you know, any time I can come up with anything that I could be doing to further something and didn't already think of it and didn't already do it, I might beat myself up about.

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:16:03

        [laughs]

    14. RRRick Rubin1:16:04

        Why, you know, why have I not done that?

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:16:06

        Now something, something I struggle with that I'd love to get your two cents on and, uh, is related to this which is on one hand I w- I don't wanna beat myself up. On the other hand I feel like the perfectionism that I have has enabled me to do, uh, achieve whatever modicum of success I've, uh, been able to achieve. And I've, I've heard stories, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but about for instance, uh, ZZ Top and La Futura and, uh, you know, how they worked on it with you from I guess, uh, I wanna say what? 2008 to 2012, something like that. But how they realized the value of, uh, you wanting the art to be as perfect as it could be or the best that it could be and taking whatever time and pains necessary to make that possible. Uh, so I'd love to hear your thoughts on that because it's, it's something that I continually struggle with. I wanna be easier on myself, but I, I worry that if I do that I will lose whatever magic, if there is such a thing, that enables me to t- to do what I do.

    16. RRRick Rubin1:17:10

        Yeah. I think that ultimately the... I think that's a myth. [laughs] And I think that, um, your take on things is specific to you, and it's not because of your... You've, it's, it's almost like you've won the war. And to accept the fact that you've won the war. You've broken through to now you have an audience. People are open to hear, hear what you are interested in, what you learn, what you're interested in learning about [coughs] and what you wanna share. And, um, you can, you can do that without killing yourself, and that killing yourself won't be of service either to you or to your audience. I gotta get the ice. [laughs]

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:17:58

        All right. You know what? Let's, uh, let's, uh... This is, this has been great. I need ice as well. Let's, let's call a close to this. Is there any last parting advice or comment that you'd like to make before we sign off?

    18. RRRick Rubin1:18:16

        I think it's t- it's too hot for me to know what's even...

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:18:19

        [laughs]

    20. RRRick Rubin1:18:20

        I don't know what's happening.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:18:20

        What's up or down? [laughs]

    22. RRRick Rubin1:18:21

        Yeah. Very confused at the moment.

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:18:23

        [laughs]

    24. RRRick Rubin1:18:24

        But I know that this ice bath is gonna change everything for the better. [laughs]

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:18:27

        [laughs] All right. Well, on, on that note, uh, thanks so much, Rick.

    26. RRRick Rubin1:18:31

        Thank you.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:18:32

        We will both get some ice. [laughs] I'll let you get out first. [upbeat music] The Tim Ferriss Show is brought to you by ONNIT. I have used ONNIT products for years. If you look in my kitchen, in my garage, you will find Alpha Brain, chewable melatonin for resetting my clock when I'm traveling, kettlebells, battle ropes, maces, steel clubs. Sounds like a torture chamber, and it kind of is. It's a torture chamber for self-improvement. [laughs] And you can see all of my favorite gear at onnit.com/tim. That's O-N-N-I-T.com/tim. And you can also get a discount on any supplements, food products. I like Hemp Force. I like Alpha Brain. Check it all out, onnit.com/tim. [upbeat music] This episode is brought to you by 99 Designs, your one-stop shop for all things graphic design related. I have used 99 Designs for everything from banner ads to book covers, including sketches and mockups that led to The 4-Hour Body which later became number one New York Times, number one Wall Street Journal. And the brainstorming, a lot of it took place with designers from around the world. And here's how it works. Whether you need a T-shirt, a business card, a website, an app thumbnail, whatever it might be, you submit that project, and designers from around the world will send you sketches and mockups and designs. You choose your favorite, and you have an original that you love or you get your money back. It's that straightforward. And many of you who are listening have already used it and created some amazing things that I'll be sharing in the future. But in the meantime, if you wanna see some of my competitions, some of the book covers, as well as get a free $99 upgrade, go to 99designs.com/tim. That's 99designs.com/tim. And until next time, thank you for listening. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 1:20:51