Tim FerrissThe Brothers Who Live One Life — The Incredible Adventures of David and Daniil Liberman
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,078 words- 0:00 – 0:15
Intro
- SPSpeaker
[upbeat music]
- 0:15 – 3:21
Childhood.
- SPSpeaker
Gentlemen, David, Daniil, nice to see you again.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Hello.
- SPSpeaker
So where did you grow up? Where were you, and what did, what did childhood look like?
- DLDaniil Liberman
So the two of us were born in Moscow.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Still Soviet Union at that time. To a family of the very known neuroscientist, like biophysicist-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... who... Like, the family were, uh, sort of like upper middle class-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... for the Soviet measure.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, right.
- DLDaniil Liberman
But as soon as the Soviet Union collapsed, we with, with the Soviet Union, the family collapsed to the below poverty-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... type of situation because our dad was born in 1925.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So in 1990 he was pretty old already.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And didn't, didn't have a chance to adapt to the new reality.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
He always-
- DLDaniil Liberman
And it was six of us-
- DLDaniil Liberman
It was six of us
- DLDaniil Liberman
... uh, elementary school-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Kids, elementary school kids, so a complicated situation.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Both of parents had to continue the work as they wanted actually to finalize and finish the work of their life.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And at the same time, somehow survive and feed kids and, like, get some clothes for us and stuff.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And it's like six of us, one year apart.
- 3:21 – 6:36
The influence of scientist parents on curious kids.
- SPSpeaker
So you have lots of excitement, maybe lots of chaos. You have goldfish, snail, grandparents, lasers. Sounds like a pretty awesome setup for curious kids.
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs] For curious kids.
- SPSpeaker
Honestly. [laughs] And what did you pick up on intellectually as a way of thinking from your parents? And I ask that because I know both of you, for instance, and I'm not trying to lead with this question, but pay a lot of attention to data. You're, you're sort of geeks for parsing the data, whether it's to, like, refine how you think about or identify problems, and then also how you might solve problems. What did you observe in your parents or pick up from them when it came to how they thought about things?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Now that you said that, I realize that our parents were doing those experiments which required them years of repeating, repeating, repeating, repeating the same stuff.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Like trying to get data which would make sense on top of their hypothesis of how everything works.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So I guess we've been surrounded by the papers, piles of papers with just numbers. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Literally, I remember this.
- DLDaniil Liberman
You know, like this, how, how was, uh, what called is this cards?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Cards.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Like punch cards.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, like the, the punch cards.
- DLDaniil Liberman
The punch cards.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes, yes, the punch cards. Like everywhere, the punch cards. Like, like before the PC was there, there were, like, this huge type recording machines with all this data as well. And like, but what's interesting, both of them was always challenging the status quo of-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... of the current understanding of, of science.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So if just someone claims something and you cannot really-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Prove
- DLDaniil Liberman
... prove it for yourself with data, probably something is missing and you need to dig deeper basically.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And that's how they lived, and they had their own discussions with everyone around, and we sort of picked it up. As we were growing already, like, I don't know, 15-ish years old-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... our dad was even older, so he needed someone to escort him to the conferences and, like, meetings of scientists. Just basically, like, it's, it's Moscow in winter, and the roads are icy-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- DLDaniil Liberman
... I don't know, five, six months a year.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Like something, something like this. So, so he needed someone to, to basically help him get there. And being there all the time, we saw his conversations with the rest of the scientific community in the, in his institute. As they were just, like, laughing out of nowhere. I mean, just like be like, "Oh, yeah. Of course." Like, a- again, Liberman is talking about the quantum nature of, of, of, of the consciousness, blah, blah, blah, blah.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- 6:36 – 12:28
The perils of pursuing anti-corruption innovation in post-Soviet Russia.
- SPSpeaker
So as, as far as a, a next logical place, I mean, I like hopping around because I see things on paper, I find certain things exciting to talk about, and then we can fill in the gaps. So I'm just gonna actually answer my own question and I'm [laughs] gonna take you to [laughs] around... And then we can fill in the gaps as we go. So you're around 18 to 19 years old and you're presenting to Russian Parliament. What are you, what are you presenting about, and how is the reception?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah, so a little bit of background. So-
- SPSpeaker
Sure
- DLDaniil Liberman
... after Soviet Union collapsed, the entire population of the country l- l- lost their savings-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... in the banks, like twice during the decade.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So it was a quite harsh time for, for everyone, and for us it was-
- SPSpeaker
Strange
- DLDaniil Liberman
... really strange. Like, we weren't able to understand how with all the modern technologies, with computers and et cetera-
- SPSpeaker
Internet
- DLDaniil Liberman
... how it's all, like how all this corruption and how it's even possible because definitely-
- SPSpeaker
That your savings can just disappear.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. Definitely some technologies-
- SPSpeaker
Should be there
- DLDaniil Liberman
... should be there to solve these problems. We had internet pretty early, and we were hackers, like pretty... I mean, it was at that time of, of the internet era when everything was possible.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs] Access to everything was possible. So at that moment, we read lots of the hackers manifestos and-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... some, like, libertarian ideas wandering around the internet and we saw all these ideas of, of decentralized type of data storage, which, which can be pro- like-
- SPSpeaker
Protected
- DLDaniil Liberman
... bulletproof from, from like, from, um-
- SPSpeaker
Various attacks or-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Attacks and modifications, like falsifications.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, right. It's resilient against-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Res-
- SPSpeaker
... falsification.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes, resilient against falsification, like a blockchain type of ideas before Satoshi actually-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... released his first paper on the blockchain-
- 12:28 – 18:14
Building a business with cables and crossbows.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So we quite soon realized that, uh, they, they, uh-
- SPSpeaker
You were like, "Well, I appreciate the invitation."
- DLDaniil Liberman
Well, well, appreciate the invitation. Never call us again.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Thank you. Goodbye.
- SPSpeaker
That was our reaction.
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
But yes, that, that's was the moment when we decided to pivot to building our own businesses and gather resources-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Making our own money
- SPSpeaker
... gather resources.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And then building type of technologies ourselves.
- SPSpeaker
And then you can buy the Ministry of Ecology seat. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah. One day. One day. [laughs] Or we can, like, like do the revolution or something like that.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Now at that point, you... W- while you're observing all of this, and it's imprinting your young minds, are you thinking eventually we are going to want to build businesses somewhere else? Or did you anticipate that you would be building in Russia for the foreseeable future? How were you thinking about things at that point? Y- you know, for us, somehow at this particular moment, it was still unreach- unreachable, the idea is that we can fly somewhere and build-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Right
- SPSpeaker
... businesses there. Like, i- it's only years after that we, we start to be more confident in our abilities and start to think about that. But yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
It was miserable. Like, the first time we flew to United States just on our own, miserable experience.
- SPSpeaker
Ugh.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Very low level, like poor, poor level of English, no understanding whatsoever what the country looks like and what's going on in the-
- SPSpeaker
We're trying to raise investment at the time
- DLDaniil Liberman
... we were trying to raise investment.
- SPSpeaker
A lot of flops.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Miserable. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That sounds like a hard slog of a first trip. Yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Okay. So, so at the time then, you're just focused on building businesses. And what type of business were you building at that point?
- 18:14 – 25:14
Lessons learned by bankrupting a gaming studio.
- SPSpeaker
Moving fast. Then later on we realized that what we actually need to do is
- DLDaniil Liberman
Super computing. Like, we were like, "We are smart in mathematics. We can build out, like we can write algorithms." And this is something, like we foreseen the future of cloud computing using like machines in internet to be-
- DLDaniil Liberman
To parallelize
- DLDaniil Liberman
... to like parallelize-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mm-hmm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... compute over the u-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mm-hmm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... like this was our idea originally, then we realized that, so like it's impossible to do in Russia type of the business. And we decided that what we can do, we can start building games.
- SPSpeaker
Now before you go on-
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... was the computer science and like whatever coding experience you had, was that self-taught? Was it school? Was it parents?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Our college degree is computer science.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
But in reality, in Russia at this moment, no one will really teach you properly computer science because your, your teachers will know less than you would.
- SPSpeaker
Than you would, I see.
- DLDaniil Liberman
If you haven't internet-
- SPSpeaker
If you're motivated
- DLDaniil Liberman
... if you're motivated.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So we were lucky. Because of our parents were scientists, we got PCs at our home much earlier than most of our peers. We got internet in our home much earlier than most of our peers, and we were super excited about these technologies and-
- DLDaniil Liberman
We were curious and how to say? Naughty. So we would break-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
... the computers all the time, and we had to fix them all the time for the parents to continue their work, and that's how we actually learned how to like, um-
- DLDaniil Liberman
We built our first website to-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah
- DLDaniil Liberman
... for our guild in online games-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Online gaming
- DLDaniil Liberman
... like Ultima Online and, and, uh-
- SPSpeaker
Great choice. Curious and naughty, that can be the name of your autobiography. [laughs] The Life and Times of the Libermans. [laughs] Okay. So you have the consolidation, and then you decide to focus on games after that.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
And what form did that take?
- 25:14 – 26:53
Moscow-style investment recovery.
- SPSpeaker
How did you decide on that versus the hundred other things that you might choose?
- DLDaniil Liberman
First of all, it was a super challenging time. Like, the company was bankrupt. We, by that time, we actually already were quite successful in different stuff. We already have the-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Started
- DLDaniil Liberman
... venture firm
- DLDaniil Liberman
Venture firm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... raised $30 million to the venture firm. But this venture firm was took over.
- DLDaniil Liberman
By our investors of the gaming studio.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So, so it's like Russian mafia situation, like-
- DLDaniil Liberman
It's Russian, Russian style, Russian style move. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
Like, the people with, with the guns and the cars and like-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Literally people on the, like, the security people from the, from the persons arrived to the office, took us in the, like, black cars, driving us to the underground of the, what is, like, office building in, in, in the middle of Moscow.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So first of all-
- DLDaniil Liberman
And then threatening us that they will kill us and our family because they know where everyone lives, unless we'll return the money.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So this type of business experience. Um-
- DLDaniil Liberman
This type of business experience.
- SPSpeaker
Hard line, strict investors.
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
And in that moment we, we knew that we need to, with the new projects, we need to do something fast because we still had some obligations in place which we just fired because we haven't paid the salary for last month.
- DLDaniil Liberman
We, we tried some-
- SPSpeaker
Okay. Right. So you had outstanding debt to these employees.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. The outstanding debt was, like, half a million dollars.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So-
- DLDaniil Liberman
And we were still living with our parents.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
So we knew that-
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
... that we don't want to have investors anymore. And they see, like, all this experience which we had. We wanted to do something which can generate cash right away, not like a development for-
- SPSpeaker
Enough apartment building basements.
- 26:53 – 27:58
A lucky break in the darkness of debt.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So-
- DLDaniil Liberman
And then there was a luck
- DLDaniil Liberman
... in, in animation we-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Because a friend of ours, who is a famous actress in Russia, she told the CEO, the president of, um, Channel One, which is like NBC of Russia, like the largest network-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, or, or like one of the BBC channels in the UK 20 years ago. Right?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yes
- DLDaniil Liberman
... that we can do magic with computer graphics.
- DLDaniil Liberman
She told him that we can do magic with the computer graphics.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, with graphics. Nice. How did you become friends with the actress?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Friends of friends introduced us, and, like, we basically become super cool friends. We were, like, writing scripts together for the future movies and stuff. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
But in reality, she... I- I'm not sure that she really knew that we can do that.
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
What, uh, what the she... What-
- SPSpeaker
But she was very confident in selling it
- DLDaniil Liberman
... but, but she knew that we, we fixed her internet [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
Many times.
- DLDaniil Liberman
That's, uh, many times. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Goes a long way.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So-
- SPSpeaker
Keeping somebody online.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. Uh-
- SPSpeaker
So she tells this head of the, you know, the, this primary channel that you guys can do, you can work magic with-
- DLDaniil Liberman
We work magic with graphics
- SPSpeaker
... graphics.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. And he had a-
- DLDaniil Liberman
And we actually were doing magic with graphics, but for games
- 27:58 – 31:01
Streamlining production through decentralization, parallelization, and a DJ connection.
- DLDaniil Liberman
... and he wanted to create a political satire show which would be based on the last week events, which is impossible. Animation usual production cycle is-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
... nine to 12 months. South Park-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Of production is actually, like, three, four months.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
But then they leave this several minutes for something topical which they can produce over a couple weeks right before the episode is released. Like, they're doing this trick.
- SPSpeaker
And that's South Park. They're the fastest of the fast.
- DLDaniil Liberman
They're the fastest. Exactly.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And we invented the production process which allowed us to produce half-hour animated show 3D graphics in one week.
- SPSpeaker
How did you do that?
- DLDaniil Liberman
The interesting part was we just basically disassembled the entire process on smaller pieces and parallelized them.
- SPSpeaker
Okay. Got it.
- DLDaniil Liberman
This idea of decentralization and parallelization was like we couldn't leave it.
- SPSpeaker
Right. So rather than an assembly line type of production-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... you're like, "How c- how many of these can we have running in parallel?"
- DLDaniil Liberman
Parallel. Exactly.
- DLDaniil Liberman
In profile that sets-
- SPSpeaker
Were you able to borrow resources from the channel to work on those parallels?
- DLDaniil Liberman
No.
- DLDaniil Liberman
No.
- DLDaniil Liberman
We actually at the time were able to borrow resources from IBM.
- SPSpeaker
Okay. How's that work? [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
A friend of ours was the president of IBM of, of Russia. And we agreed that they will be able-
- DLDaniil Liberman
And he was a DJ in the club-
- SPSpeaker
He was a DJ
- DLDaniil Liberman
... during the weekends.
- DLDaniil Liberman
That's how we knew the guy.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
During the weekends-
- 31:01 – 36:34
When playing the fools is the smart move.
- SPSpeaker
Okay. So what happens then? So you have, you have this parallel processing that's working with your [laughs] semi-permanently borrowed IBM machines from the DJ. You make three million. You, you manage to negotiate prepayment, so you satisfy your outstanding debts to paying the ex-employees. And then what?
- DLDaniil Liberman
The summer was hard work. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. But, but this was the first time when we actually start to earn enough of our own funds, and we return to, first we return to our-
- SPSpeaker
Ideas
- DLDaniil Liberman
... ideas, that we need to think about-
- SPSpeaker
How to fight the corruption
- DLDaniil Liberman
... how to fight the corrupt-
- SPSpeaker
Hmm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... fight the corruption, what type of technologies can be created to-
- SPSpeaker
Were you guys not afraid, just for your personal or family safety?
- DLDaniil Liberman
We still are not. Honestly, the part of us not being afraid probably somehow was related to our dad was never afraid of, uh, whoever was challenging him. Uh, but at the same time, back in 2000, when, as we finished the school, we knew that if we have all these ideas of changing the world, it's gonna be impossible if we just stay home, play computer games and stuff.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So we decided we would go to some business trainings, personal development trainings, fear trainings. Like, all, we started challenging ourself and developing ourself. And by 2005, like 2005, we spent like four years developing our own internal equanimity.
- SPSpeaker
Well, let's talk about this equanimity for a second, because this is super important, and it's sort of the enabler or the handicapper, the lack of it being a handicapper, in so many different capacities. And I would say a lot of the people listening to this are gonna be from the US, and fortunately for them, they've never had the experience of being under a political regime where people disappear. But I've spent a lot of time in South America-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Or poisoned
- SPSpeaker
... or poisoned, or fill in the blank. Yeah, disappears in quotation marks.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And but what, what you realize is there are political regimes all around the world, very common, where people routinely are killed, poisoned, or otherwise made to disappear. So the risks were very real for you, right? These are not, uh, c- conspiracy theories. Like, there were actual threats. So was the lack of fear a lack of fear of death, or was it a belief that you could extricate yourself or avoid any type of, like, really significant consequence, or something else?
- DLDaniil Liberman
There are three answers to that. A, yes, we don't afraid to die.
- SPSpeaker
Okay.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Somehow don't. I mean, this is like you die, that's it. Whatever.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
B, somehow, and it actually really helped with the bandits in 2009 when they, when they came to ask for all of their money invested in the game back.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
We knew that it's their way of threatening you, and they want you to be afraid. They want you to fear.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And that's how you're on the hook.
- SPSpeaker
And you show the fear.
- DLDaniil Liberman
As soon as you show the fear-
- 36:34 – 40:33
Coming to America.
- SPSpeaker
idiots.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Incredible. All right, we may come back to this, but I wanna, I wanna [laughs] make sure I don't lose the thread. So the graphics for this political satire
- SPSpeaker
It seems to be working pretty well. You return to your ideas-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... from prior, which is how we got here.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
So thinking about anti-corruption and things like that. And then where do you leave-
- DLDaniil Liberman
You know, so we started our move to United States, so since 2010-
- SPSpeaker
You started thinking about this
- DLDaniil Liberman
... we already established our presence in Los Angeles because of animation-
- SPSpeaker
2010
- DLDaniil Liberman
... in 2010, and started to move our own attention, all attention to United States. So we were like, "Nothing good gonna happen in the country. It's run by the KGB, and we'll, like, they, they're not going to release their gr- gr- grasp over the country-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- DLDaniil Liberman
... unless it's gonna be, like, a, a revolution type of a situation," which we saw that the, even opposition, they were trying to play the political game, mm, and it was a l- lost game from the very beginning.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So we knew that the show, political satire on largest TV network in Russia, is not going to last more than the, the, the term of President, p- p- puppet President Medvedev. That's exactly what happened. Like, as soon as [laughs] Putin get back to his position, like, the show was shut down immediately. So, so we knew it's gonna, uh, end, and we knew that we need to spend all of the money which we'll make from this in order to transit to United States.
- SPSpeaker
So two questions, b- and it might seem obvious to you guys, but I think for a lot of people listening, they might wonder, well, why not Europe? Why not somewhere else? Why, why the US? And then was it, how hard was it, or how easy, to start to move your lives to the US?
- DLDaniil Liberman
You know, in Europe, especially animation industry, is-
- SPSpeaker
It's mostly subsidized
- DLDaniil Liberman
... mostly subsidized by government. So you actually need to deal with bureaucrats, and you need to, to get any funding.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, I didn't know that.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And, like, the, the, the private sector almost doesn't exist.
- SPSpeaker
So I would say that makes it very hard for immigrants.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Yes, exactly.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes, yes.
- SPSpeaker
And it was always, like, if you want to get-
- DLDaniil Liberman
If you're not local, you need to, uh, to work with local studios
- SPSpeaker
... to work with the local studios
- DLDaniil Liberman
... and they should get this funding, and, like, all this stuff.
- 40:33 – 42:22
Building momentum with animation in Los Angeles.
- SPSpeaker
of talent
- DLDaniil Liberman
... free flow. Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Which makes it hard sometimes to retain talent in Silicon Valley, but that's a whole separate story. So you land in LA. You have introductions to people at, say, William Morris Endeavor and other places. What happens as that momentum starts building?
- DLDaniil Liberman
We actually had a, a pretty good success working with different studios and different big names like Jimmy Fallon.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
We worked on the, on the, on the show with him in, um-
- SPSpeaker
At some point we met with the guy who used to be Jon Stewart's head writer.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Head writer.
- SPSpeaker
And he just moved back from New York to Los Angeles, and was sort of available-ish. He wasn't for a year, but then a year later he was available, and we, like, we took our chance to become friends over the year. And then when he be- become available, like, "Josh, why don't you work with us?" And, uh, we managed to convince him because we showed him how fast we actually can produce animation. And he-
- DLDaniil Liberman
No, we, we realized that he-
- SPSpeaker
We re- what we realized that people-
- DLDaniil Liberman
... doesn't believe us
- SPSpeaker
... even like William Morris Endeavor or Josh even being a friend for, for us for, like, a year, they never actually believed that we can produce animation in one week. And we had to prove it, like, literally by saying, like, "Josh, are you serious? Okay, just let's write a script right now, a one-pager. You will write one-pager joke."
- DLDaniil Liberman
In a week you will have it.
- SPSpeaker
"In a week we, you will have it in animation." And that's what we did, and it was like, "Whoa! You guys were saying true."
- DLDaniil Liberman
You guys can actually do it.
- SPSpeaker
You guys can actually do it.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Like, before that he worked at Simpson, before Jon Stewart.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And at Simpson it's, like, 12 months production, like, uh, nine months production.
- SPSpeaker
And, like, a year. And you're like, you're making a joke, and it's already old, a year old joke.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And with us, there was an opportunity for him to make jokes which are super
- 42:22 – 43:15
Divorce lawyer power dynamics.
- SPSpeaker
current.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So it was cool, m- but on the other hand, really wanted to focus more on the technologies which can transform society.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And plus, H- Hollywood wasn't really our thing. You know, like, uh-
- SPSpeaker
There are some trade-offs.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
There are a lot of trade-offs. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
No one cares about technologists, especially that time. You know, like, it's before Netflix and before all the stuff. No one cared about technologists. No one cares that you're faster and cheaper. And we realized it's too late
- DLDaniil Liberman
Who is your, like, producers and, like, all these-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Divorce lawyers
- DLDaniil Liberman
... uh, divorce lawyers and all this stuff. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
Wait, wait, wait, wait. How does the divorce lawyer fit in?
- DLDaniil Liberman
We, we, we don't know, but people in Hollywood say so. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
Oh, wait. You want... You need to know divorce lawyers?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes, because they know people, like they know, like the power dynamics and-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Oh, this is good for me to know. Okay.
- DLDaniil Liberman
There's like a power dynamic of, like-
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
... the divorce lawyers who, who control-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Oh, I picked up a new stratagem today.
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
Thank you.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Exactly.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Okay.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And we're like, "Wait,
- 43:15 – 45:30
Another unforeseen financial hurdle.
- DLDaniil Liberman
what?"
- DLDaniil Liberman
Divorce lawyers.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So and eventually-
- DLDaniil Liberman
And then should we-
- DLDaniil Liberman
... we knew all the lawyers, and we started to know the people.
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
And we started to meet the people, and eventually we, we deconstructed what the show needed to be in order to come to a meeting in Fox, at Fox.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Okay, so you were at that point then, you're pitching your own show.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. So we get to the point understanding that we cannot sell our technology. We have to sell the entire show.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Package. Yeah, yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
We package it. We should package voice actors.
- DLDaniil Liberman
The Trojan horse with the technology inside.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Voice... Exactly. We took it all. Like, we, we... That's why we needed Josh, because we needed a head writer that, like, we took the voice actors. We took, like, the, the best concept-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Artists
- DLDaniil Liberman
... artists, like, to, to combine this all and then produce a pilot, a f- like a literal final quality pilot, and brought it to Fox. And who was it? Susanna Makkos at the time. She was like, "Wow, I love it," because we actually knew what she likes, who she likes.
- DLDaniil Liberman
What type of artists. Yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
What type of artists, what are like... We, we, like, engineered it all.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Data. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
Data, data, data.
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
And then we br-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Went to a custom tailor to put together a pilot for her.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes, exactly.
- DLDaniil Liberman
But it was also some misfortune-
- DLDaniil Liberman
The challenge, misfortune
- DLDaniil Liberman
... a misfortune time because, still, like Putin get back to power, so our show was canceled back in Russia. In 2013, the banking crisis in Cyprus.
- DLDaniil Liberman
The
- DLDaniil Liberman
All our money was, were na- nationalized. So basically we had-
- DLDaniil Liberman
All of our money.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah. From Russia.
- 45:30 – 49:01
To Silicon Valley and nonprofit transparency.
- DLDaniil Liberman
fuel. And we tried to think what we can do in Hollywood more for like half a year, a year. But then we realized that it, it will take us another four or five years to recover because there's no money. There's, like-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah
- DLDaniil Liberman
... nothing in there. So we're like, "Screw it. We're not gonna stay in Hollywood. Let's move to Silicon Valley." [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
And so, and we'll move to Menlo Park at the, at this-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah. Right in the middle. Right in the middle. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah. And also we really w- already wanted to return to our real, like, ideas. We, we started with transparency again.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
We decided that we can do a trick, that we can actually not target governments to become co- transparent, but target nonprofits.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Like, why we don't see how nonprofits actually spends our money? It's, like, kind of obvious. It's not your, like, personal money. It's like we all together gather these funds to make-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Change
- DLDaniil Liberman
... world a better place. So we created a, a transparent bank- banking platform for nonprofits.
- DLDaniil Liberman
For many reasons-
- DLDaniil Liberman
In general
- DLDaniil Liberman
... we were wrong about the, the ability and readiness of-
- DLDaniil Liberman
The appetite
- DLDaniil Liberman
... the appetite, exactly. The appetite for the nonprofits.
- DLDaniil Liberman
But, but, you know, like, this was one of the... This was also the times when we realized that some of the challenges which, like fundamental challenges which we saw in-
- DLDaniil Liberman
United States economy
- DLDaniil Liberman
... uh, uh, uh, economy, actually they were true in United States as well. Not only in Europe, not only, like, in Russia, not only is Israel, but in, in the United States as well. And we realized that even with the nonprofit transparency, like if you will look at research of what actually donors want, you will see is that the previous generations of donors, they don't really want to see where is the money spent. It's like, it's almost the last- Donate, don't tell.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. Yes. It's almost the last, uh, item in the list of their preferences-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Requirements
- DLDaniil Liberman
... is, uh, is their requirements. But our generation and generations younger, they want it-
- DLDaniil Liberman
It's actually one
- DLDaniil Liberman
... on the first place. We want to see what happened with, uh, the-
- DLDaniil Liberman
The dynamic of thinking behind this is just for the older generation, they donate money because it's a give back for them. They're like, "Society gave them a lot."
- DLDaniil Liberman
So society-
- DLDaniil Liberman
It's feeling good versus doing good.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Maybe.
- 49:01 – 55:30
How are David and Daniil able to pivot between different ideas so quickly?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
It's night and day. So it's, it's important to factor that into how you evaluate them. So question for you guys with the, the looking at the nonprofit and the this and the the, the, the platform, right? You have... You, you're very good at, it seems like, letting go of ideas, having a light grasp on ideas if things are not working so you can move to something else that you think might work better.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
That's not true for everyone, right? Some people get very attached to one thing, and they wanna ride it until they die, and they get attached to things that may never work. And I'm wondering how you think about changing direction, maybe failure in quotation marks. Like, what allows you to do that so readily?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Data.
- SPSpeaker
Data? All right.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes.
- DLDaniil Liberman
A, we learn the, the hard way.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So the first, the game studio we grasp and we try-
- DLDaniil Liberman
So you, you know that if you don't stop, uh, at the right moment, you can actually get to a-
- DLDaniil Liberman
And, and that was-
- DLDaniil Liberman
... a deep shit.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. You can get into a hole.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. But also what we saw in the data is that, and what we realized also through the experience of game development failure and then animation s- success, that we realized that it's not all-
- DLDaniil Liberman
It is not always about your abilities
- DLDaniil Liberman
... y- your abilities. So you can fail just-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Then-
- DLDaniil Liberman
... because of, uh, different reasons like financial crisis and like-
- DLDaniil Liberman
There are multiple factors
- SPSpeaker
It's like, like poker, right?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes
- DLDaniil Liberman
... the time not right and-
- SPSpeaker
You have to study the decision-making, not just the outcomes.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes.
- DLDaniil Liberman
In the statistics of venture startups is that two thir- like two-thirds will fail.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Like completely fail. Losing all the money.
- SPSpeaker
Losing. Yeah, zero.
- 55:30 – 1:05:43
The formation, advantages, and drawbacks of the Liberman hive mind.
- SPSpeaker
All right, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna zoom out for a second, 'cause I, I like to think about sort of meta decisions that span across a lot of other decisions and projects and so on. So [laughs] the two of you living one life, I, we have to talk about this. I've never seen an example quite like this. I mean, there are, there are couples who are, say, power couples, but it's a different dynamic. I mean, you guys have been seemingly sort of hive mind from a very early age. So when did this start, right? So you have one email address, one Instagram account, one LinkedIn. I think the phone is maybe the same.
- DLDaniil Liberman
It's connected, so that's-
- SPSpeaker
Right. So I'm looking at some notes here. So since, since you were born-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... this year was the first time that you guys spent 10 days apart. [laughs] Or other, put another way, not being together in one place when you went to a Vipassana retreat. All right, so, so could you explain for people who understandably will find this interesting and kind of alien, how did this come about? And, and how is it helpful versus confusing? I mean, how do you guys do it?
- DLDaniil Liberman
It is confusing in many ways. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
But, A, we should understand that we, the six of us grew up in one room of a size smaller than this studio.
- SPSpeaker
Okay. [laughs] And for those who can't see the full studio, not, not, [laughs] I mean, it's not huge, right? It's not a, this isn't a airplane hangar.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And basically-
- SPSpeaker
It's not a basketball court
- DLDaniil Liberman
... basically-
- SPSpeaker
It's like a bed- it's like, it's like a bedroom. Yeah
- DLDaniil Liberman
... three bunk beds.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
That's how the th- the six kid could, could fit in the room like this. And then even later, so we grew up like this up until, like, school already started and I think, like, until four- 13, 14 years old it was the situation.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
More or less. And then the, at this moment, and then parents also send us to school by pairs.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
It was like a logist- logistical in, in, innovation.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
Like-
- SPSpeaker
It's like buddy diving when you're scuba diving.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah, exactly.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
But because it w- it was dangerous to walk-
- SPSpeaker
Walk on the streets in '90s
- DLDaniil Liberman
... walk alone.
- SPSpeaker
Alone in Moscow.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So if we're together, they don't need to walk us to school, so we can do it by ourselves and all the stuff, so.
- 1:05:43 – 1:07:38
Separation pros and cons.
- DLDaniil Liberman
further.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Do you guys get physical or psychological anxiety when you are separate?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Sort of.
- DLDaniil Liberman
You know, th- this was the first time when, [laughs] when we were separate, uh-
- DLDaniil Liberman
April was the first time when we were separate, not, like, not even being able to text each other because the phone is off-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Uh-huh
- DLDaniil Liberman
... during Vipassana for 10 days long in our life.
- DLDaniil Liberman
What was that like? Well, so you had something to do. I mean, you're in your own mind.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah, I was working.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Right? Like, but you had a task. So what was it like for you, David?
- DLDaniil Liberman
It was unexpected, but for me it was okay. Because I knew that Daniil is working on something which is important. And if I knew that if he will extract some new experiences out of it, I also will do that. So it's kind of, I outsource this-
- DLDaniil Liberman
He was the guinea pig
- DLDaniil Liberman
... this challenge.
- DLDaniil Liberman
That was the guinea pig. And I actually felt like I had this intuition like, [snaps finger] "I gotta do this." A- and I just went.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Um-
- DLDaniil Liberman
And, and it was so quick. So David had to wait for three months in a line.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So everyone expected-
- DLDaniil Liberman
I was accepted four days before the, the, the course started.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Everyone expected around that I will be devastated by this experience. But somehow I was super calm because I, I probably because I knew that, uh, Daniil is working on something important for us.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And that didn't felt like-
- DLDaniil Liberman
There was a purpose behind it Yes. And then the second time was, like, the same situation but reversed. He was working on his mind and I was back home. For me, it was a little bit more challenging, meaning that I had this sort of mind trick, which was, "Oh, it's your fault that he's there struggling there." And like, "What are you talking about? For you it was a great experience." But like, "Yeah, but for David maybe it's not as, as great. Maybe it's challenging for him." And like, "Come on, seriously. Stop it." [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] All right. So you had these... You had, you had the internal voice keeping you company.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. [laughs]
- 1:07:38 – 1:10:53
How does external romance fit into this arrangement?
- SPSpeaker
Part of the reason I ask, and I don't know if this is true, this is from The, The New Yorker piece, Is Selling Shares in Yourself the Way of the Future? Which I would love to hear what they got... If there's anything you wish were different in that piece, I mean, for those people who might check it out. But I was curious because at one point it says, "At home, the brothers share a single king size bed." Is that still the case?
- DLDaniil Liberman
We recently changed it.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Like, in April we moved to a new house, and we basically decided to have more bedrooms, and we have separate bedrooms now.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Because this behavior creates some limitations, especially around relationships, so. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, I would imagine so.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And so we decided that, especially now when it's published, we have an [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
... additional problem. [laughs] So.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Oh, it was already... Yeah, right, in The New Yorker, right.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes, in The New Yorker.
- SPSpeaker
I imagine I'm not the first person to ask about this.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So-
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
... in general, our bond is quite challenging in terms of relationship. That's why we decided that we need to make it easier-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Like romantic relationship even.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
We decided that we need to explicitly make it easier for potential romantic partners, and like-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
... splitting bedrooms is, like, is one of the first-
- SPSpeaker
Key
- DLDaniil Liberman
... floors.
- SPSpeaker
It may be a key aim. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
Different floors. Like, Daniil has his own floor and David has his own floor in the house, so.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Oh, I can imagine those in my mind, right? As I'm, as I'm painting a picture, I just imagine the floors looking very different. Like, if, if the, the respective brother's-
- DLDaniil Liberman
They are. They are
- 1:10:53 – 1:19:05
The Dalai Lama, Jerry Murdock, and Snap.
- DLDaniil Liberman
them together.
- SPSpeaker
It's like a spaceship.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. I like it.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
I like it. I'm very interested in all. That's why maybe the divorce lawyers can give you some advice [laughs] about Hollywood.
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
What has worked? What has not worked? [laughs] So you, you mentioned Evan earlier. Not everyone's going to recognize that name. How did you guys end up at Snap?
- DLDaniil Liberman
So our point of view, we always tell the story from the perspective of us meeting Dalai Lama in 2010.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] When in doubt, go with the Dalai Lama story.
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs] So it was back in 2009.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Right in between us starting the animation studio and bankrupting the game studio.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
There was a three months of us-
- SPSpeaker
Took a Dalai Lama sabbatical. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah, yeah. There was three, three months of us clearly not knowing what to do, and then the bandits are threatening our lives. We don't know how to, like, return the money. And then we just decided to go for a five, six days meditation retreat-
- SPSpeaker
Oh
- DLDaniil Liberman
... of Rinpoche, a Tibetan lama-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... who just arrived to Moscow, and a friend invited us. So we came there with no expectations whatsoever. But the gentleman was very interesting. He was young. He was super smart, speaking like 11 languages. And from time to time, he would switch from this Tibetan stories about the enlightened kingdoms to something more practical, even c- like claiming that a single person can actually change the world if they want. And for us it was like, "Wait, what? Are you talking to us?"
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Like, [laughs] and we then asked if we can have a, an audience with the, with the Rinpoche, and, and we were told that we, that, that everything is booked already. But five minutes later he called us.
- SPSpeaker
Now just so I'm clear, so he is which teacher?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Rinpoche, Gyatrel Jigme Rinpoche.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
He's like a T- Tibetan-
- SPSpeaker
Spiritual leader
- DLDaniil Liberman
... spiritual... Yes.
- DLDaniil Liberman
It's like a title which you can get only from your childhood if you-
- 1:19:05 – 1:28:22
Reversing Snapchat’s 2018 decline by adapting to data and fixing real problems.
- DLDaniil Liberman
in all places.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And so you guys get acquired, and if I'm missing a chapter, let me know. But can you describe
- SPSpeaker
... what you did, what your analysis looked like when Snapchat suddenly started losing users. I think it was in 2017?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
2018.
- SPSpeaker
'18.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So it was early 2018.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Oh, you're right. Yes.
- DLDaniil Liberman
2017, Instagram released their stories. And in the beginning of 2018, new version, new update version of Snapchat was released. And like Kim Kardashian tweeted-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Complained
- DLDaniil Liberman
... or Kylie Jenner tweeted that, like, no one would use Snapchat anymore, all this stuff. And audience started to decline.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And at that moment, most of the people believed-
- DLDaniil Liberman
An internal idea in the company was that it's due to the-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Competition
- SPSpeaker
Public sentiment, competition.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Competition.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Public sentiment of the bad new version or competition of-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Instagram and TikTok
- DLDaniil Liberman
... of Instagram and, and TikTok or altogether. While our analysis of data showed us that it's not true, and then the major reason for the decline of the audience was in r- was related to the fact that Android version of Snapchat, after the update, becomes so slow-
- SPSpeaker
Hmm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... that people over time developed... Not developed, but, like, gave up.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, they just abandoned because-
- DLDaniil Liberman
They just aband- started abandoning.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. And we realized that-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Like, 10%, 10% of the slowest devices of Android users could have experienced, like, up to 40 seconds before the feed with stories would load.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Next time when you will-
- SPSpeaker
Forget it
- DLDaniil Liberman
... open some feed, like, count to 40. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
Forget about it. [laughs]
- 1:28:22 – 1:34:27
Applying principles of compound growth to life.
- DLDaniil Liberman
since then.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm. So I have a question about this type of data-driven analysis. Do you attempt to do this type of analysis with goals or challenges that you have in your personal lives? Is, do you, do you try to apply it everywhere? Are there examples that you could give outside of the business context?
- DLDaniil Liberman
First of all, we, we should note that we, as Daniil mentioned about intuition, we believe in both. We believe in intuition-
- SPSpeaker
Right
- DLDaniil Liberman
... we believe in data approach. But yes, so for example, one of our, kind of, one of the major principle is that so we know what is compound growth.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And for example, we, when we have some crazy goals, crazy for some people, they, they, they, we'll, we'll set some goals, and these goals are seems to be impossible. What we show again and again that actually if you have KPI-
- SPSpeaker
Hmm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... for example, number of followers-
- DLDaniil Liberman
If you have, uh, goals, like for example, number of followers or number of dollars in your pocket.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Quantifiable.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Uh, quantifiable things.
- SPSpeaker
Quantifiable. Key performance-
- DLDaniil Liberman
What you can do is that y- you can evaluate what you have right now. And then if you can multiply this number to-
- DLDaniil Liberman
If you can double
- DLDaniil Liberman
... two times a year.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Actually, in 15 years-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Every year if you can double your results
- DLDaniil Liberman
... it is a greatness. You, like, you have, like, the entire money on Earth, the entire-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Population on Earth
- DLDaniil Liberman
... population of following, et cetera. So it's really important then you, when you have these big goals, you can have any big goal with this a- approach. You just-
- DLDaniil Liberman
But you just don't need to run faster than doubling-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Two times
- DLDaniil Liberman
... the num- two times a every year.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Actually, what we realized that there is this corridor.
- DLDaniil Liberman
There's probably, if physical limitation at the top, which is around 2.4, like you cannot run faster than increasing your results 2.4 times a year in a-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Long run
- DLDaniil Liberman
... long run.
- DLDaniil Liberman
But what we realized that is actually it's, it's really tiny corridor. If you increase this number 1.6 times, you are successful.
- 1:34:27 – 1:38:46
How working with family has helped with logistics.
- SPSpeaker
So what, what are some of the maybe logistics challenges, and how have you addressed them in running your businesses how you run them, or organizing your lives the way that you guys organize them?
- DLDaniil Liberman
We have a very messed up calendar.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
It's like multidimensional. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Does that mean that you're just traveling all over the place? Do you have, do you have-
- DLDaniil Liberman
We travel a lot
- DLDaniil Liberman
... we travel, uh, we travel a lot.
- DLDaniil Liberman
For sure.
- DLDaniil Liberman
We probably, like this year we're in the States for three months all over the year. But at home, like at home in LA even less-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... time than that. Maybe like one week a month, no more than that.
- DLDaniil Liberman
But, but what helped a lot that it, it, it started with two of us, but quite fast two of our sisters joined.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Joined.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And, and they usually-
- DLDaniil Liberman
And they don't travel that much
- DLDaniil Liberman
... and they usually run operations and scaling of the projects which are-
- SPSpeaker
Do any of your other siblings have the pair bonding that you guys have? No.
- DLDaniil Liberman
But, but five of us, we are quite close, and we work together.
- DLDaniil Liberman
We work together. We live together in LA. Like our houses is literally like two minutes away from each other.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. And, and they start to run our operations since game development. And then they, um, the-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Become our equal partners
- DLDaniil Liberman
... equal partners in animation studio. And since then i- it's much easier for us to, to dream more and to, to act, uh, more-
- DLDaniil Liberman
No, now we discuss everything together, like philosophy, the vision for the future-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... the, the morality. Like it's a, it's a constant discussion re- among all of us.
- SPSpeaker
So I can imagine, I'm just putting myself in the place of people listening to this, that there pr- there, I'm sure there are people out there who work with family, and then there are other people who don't work with family. But I imagine working with my family, and I love my family, but I'm like, wow, if I hired two people from my family to run my operations, what do you do if it's not working? I mean, would you ever fire them? Or do you just have complete confidence that you can resolve anything that might come up? How do you think about-
- DLDaniil Liberman
You definitely can fire, but-
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
For sure. What-
- SPSpeaker
I mean, whatever doesn't work
- 1:38:46 – 1:48:26
The value of interdisciplinary synthesis.
- DLDaniil Liberman
in many ways.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm. So I wanna, I wanna ask you about... This is same question applied to two different groups. So the first is going to be your parents. And I wanted to just ask about what ideas of theirs you find most interesting. Maybe that's a place to talk about Chematics, maybe not. But the, the, then the second is what ideas you guys are most excited about right now.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Hmm.
- SPSpeaker
But I wanted to start with the parents.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Do we have a couple more hours for each?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. [laughs] Exactly.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So our parents, so our dad-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... he was from physics. But he was by government pushed out from physics because he was Jew and, and-
- SPSpeaker
And switched to bio-
- DLDaniil Liberman
He switched to-
- SPSpeaker
Biology
- DLDaniil Liberman
... biology because biophysics was an open field. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm. So physics was more protected and, and Jews were more discriminated against-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... in physics.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So he found this niche. It was a new niche. It was an emerging new science, and he came there with knowledge of physics.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And that gave him a different perspective than most-
- SPSpeaker
An advantage
- DLDaniil Liberman
... of the biologists-
- SPSpeaker
Huge advantage
- DLDaniil Liberman
... who would see everything through prism of chemistry or through the prism of biology and-
- SPSpeaker
He looked at this through the prism of physics
- DLDaniil Liberman
... and he start discovering things faster faster in this field.
- SPSpeaker
Starting with the first thing which he discovered was that the color which received by an eye is encoded not in the frequency, which is then translated as a, as a signal inside of the eye nerve, but as a pattern of the signal-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Pauses in between spikes
- SPSpeaker
... pauses in between spikes.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So this pattern encodes the color.
- SPSpeaker
He's like almost like a Morse, like dee, dee, dee, dee, dee. Like Morse code.
- 1:48:26 – 1:56:23
How the Libermans might teach people to code.
- DLDaniil Liberman
All right. So I wanna segue to the ideas that you guys are currently most excited about. Thank you for explaining all that. Every time I... A- anyway, I, I could spend hours just digging into what you just said. Maybe another time. But since you mentioned teaching, which relates to learning, how would you teach kids to code or people to code?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Oh, that's interesting.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Versus, versus how it's maybe currently taught.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So first of all, we saw that computer science historically emerged from mathematics. And this-
- DLDaniil Liberman
And the geeky minds like ours.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And so it's really great for us, but for most people it's really alienating because if you're not good in math, you-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mathematics
- DLDaniil Liberman
... mathematics, you will just avoid even learning.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Trying.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Because you will think that you are not really great at that.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
In reality-
- DLDaniil Liberman
It's a language
- DLDaniil Liberman
... coding is much closer to learning French [laughs] or learning Japanese.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
It's actually easier. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
A friend of mine published a small book which was basically code is poetry.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Oh, that's interesting.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Um, ca- can you share it? Because we actually also wrote s- a tiny book like code is language.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Oh, sure. Sure, sure. I'll find it for you. I'll find it for you.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Oh.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And, and I'm not sure if he published it, but he gave it away as a gift. Matt Mullenweg, who's the founder and CEO of Automattic and was one of the lead developers, arguably the lead developer of WordPress.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Probably need to combine our thoughts in one book and then publish it. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
So-
- DLDaniil Liberman
[laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
I'll find it for you. I created, during pandemic, had some additional time, so I, I created a interactive book.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Online book. Mm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Where you learn that you can actually first type something in a normal language, description of the world, and-
- 1:56:23 – 2:09:24
A data-driven look at our current financial crisis.
- SPSpeaker
Things that, things that are... It could be projects, could be missions, could be ideas. Just things that have you both feeling excited and-
- DLDaniil Liberman
A-
- SPSpeaker
... motivated
- DLDaniil Liberman
... like where do we go? So-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Identity, intergenerational, uh, gap.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So, so understand this idea as-
- DLDaniil Liberman
AI
- DLDaniil Liberman
... two thing, there are two, two things.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Sure.
- DLDaniil Liberman
First, observations-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mm-hmm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... which we have-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mm-hmm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... about the world. And this observation give, they give us a different perspective, and this perspective has almost obviously led us to some ideas.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And projects. Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And, and then usually when we have ideas, these ideas exist in us for some years, and then we trying to crystallize them-
- DLDaniil Liberman
In the-
- DLDaniil Liberman
... in projects
- DLDaniil Liberman
... product.
- DLDaniil Liberman
One of the major observation, which actually started from bankruptcy of game development studio. We really wanted to understand what was that-
- DLDaniil Liberman
What the hell happened-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Like with financial crisis
- DLDaniil Liberman
... during the financial crisis? Like, what-
- DLDaniil Liberman
How we missed it.
- DLDaniil Liberman
We, not, not that we missed it, like, we saw that there was, like, a problem in the real estate market, but everything collapsed around real estate market.
- DLDaniil Liberman
We, we thought that just real estate market will collapse, but everything collapsed. Mm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Little did we know about how the financial market works. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. So, and then we dig deeper and get... First we got to the same-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Conclusion
- DLDaniil Liberman
... uh, conclusions, uh, that-
- 2:09:24 – 2:12:10
What’s the Liberman solution?
- DLDaniil Liberman
So in this term, we realized that the solution which we can test and propose-
- DLDaniil Liberman
At least try
- DLDaniil Liberman
... is to try to convert income-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Individual income
- DLDaniil Liberman
... to-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Into, uh, securities
- DLDaniil Liberman
... eq- securities.
- SPSpeaker
This is where the, The Libermans Company comes from.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah. The Libermans Company comes from.
- DLDaniil Liberman
The first time, first time we did this, uh-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Ourselves
- DLDaniil Liberman
... ourself with... Is, is, as a scientist, you need to, to make the experiments, and the experiments first have to be-
- SPSpeaker
Mm. I wish more scientists did this.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, you gotta be the first, be the first monkey shot into space.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] At less than three Gs, just to be clear.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah. So we realized, okay, like-
- DLDaniil Liberman
If you want to survive this experiment.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
So even though our income is not stable, but if you will build a model around all the founders, all tech founders, and the, the probabilities of successes during the period of time, we can build an income model like you would do with a company, kind of cashflow projections.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Risk-weighted, risk-adjusted cashflow projection of an entrepreneur.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And then based on this projections-
- SPSpeaker
Like a value stock. Like, mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. In the, in the... By based on these projections, you can actually set a price for a company which would have the same type of income.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
In this ca- case, if you can form the company, then you can attract investment. The same way companies do. And in this case, you will eliminate this bias, and vice versa, will be supercharged-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... by this-
- 2:12:10 – 2:16:31
Incentivizing adoption of such a solution.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm. So how do you think you incentivize this type of wider adoption and data sharing, right? Because I can imagine if you're, if, if... Let's just say we flash forward and this has been widely adopted. Now I can choose, all right, do I want to invest in people who are going getting accounting degrees, where maybe I have a more reliable return on my investment year on year? Or do I want to invest in like the growth stocks that have much higher volatility, [laughs] right, like the entrepreneurs of a certain class or maybe-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... age bracket, where it's gonna be a much riskier by volatility measurements-
- DLDaniil Liberman
But probably higher
- SPSpeaker
... investment, but who knows? Like, you know, the, the, the gains could be higher. How do you go from a single proof of concept? I have also questions about taxation, just if you're being taxed at an ordinary income level, how you translate that effectivity, effectively to equity holders who might be your investors, let's just say. But, well, we could, we could, we could tackle any, any one of those. So it could be like, how do you, how do you contend with maybe the handicap of having ordinary income-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... taxed, even though that's presumably what people are investing in on some level, like the discounted cashflow or whatever. And then what does this, how do you take this and encourage other people to experiment with it?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Some laws should be changed to make it widely adopted.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
But now we start with ourself as tech entrepreneurs because most of our income comes from building companies and selling companies or, like the selling company, like making companies public trades.
- DLDaniil Liberman
It's even today. There is no difference whether you registered this company under your name or you registered this company under a holding company name.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So there is no-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. That's a great point
- DLDaniil Liberman
... difference.
- SPSpeaker
That's a great point. You guys are actually operating in a very, in an, in an easier-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Straightforward
- SPSpeaker
... case, straightforward case because most of your gains would be-
- DLDaniil Liberman
From companies
- SPSpeaker
... from companies, therefore likely long-term capital gains. Maybe you have like-
- DLDaniil Liberman
That's why-
- SPSpeaker
... USBS ex- ex- exclusions-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Exactly
- SPSpeaker
... et cetera.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Absolutely.
- SPSpeaker
Versus if you guys were like very high paid lawyers or something. It could get a lot trickier.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. We went through that- prove it to regulators-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Pave the way. Pave the way so that thousands of-
- DLDaniil Liberman
... show that it works pretty good
- DLDaniil Liberman
... thousands of, like, entrepreneurs can actually show on their example that it works for the investors.
- 2:16:31 – 2:20:32
A real-world test.
- SPSpeaker
how... Now, do you think if somebody is really successful that they would try to renegotiate, or that they would not try to renegotiate?
- DLDaniil Liberman
There is an example. It, it's not us, it was, uh, before us. There is a fund which invested in college athletes.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And they proposed to every college athlete. They-
- DLDaniil Liberman
They had their model
- DLDaniil Liberman
... they took the statistics because it's quite statistical thing.
- DLDaniil Liberman
It's like a Moneyball type of a game. Like, they, they calculated-
- SPSpeaker
Sure
- DLDaniil Liberman
... their weight, understanding how to predict-
- DLDaniil Liberman
And they offered-
- DLDaniil Liberman
... how many students they should invest in in order to basically hit the-
- SPSpeaker
Have a couple of LeBron James.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Exactly. Yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And, yes, and they offered every student, or like-
- DLDaniil Liberman
The same price
- DLDaniil Liberman
... 5, 10% investment.
- DLDaniil Liberman
We're buying 5, 10% of your future income, and we pay you the same price. It's $10 million of, of-
- DLDaniil Liberman
So half a million, million-
- DLDaniil Liberman
... valuation
- DLDaniil Liberman
... per 5 to 10%.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
70 students agreed. One of them already netted 15 years contract for $350 million.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So they, they did great with the funds.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, they did pretty well.
- DLDaniil Liberman
There is one-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Attempt to sue them
- DLDaniil Liberman
... a- athlete who's tried to challenge, uh, this agreement in court.
- SPSpeaker
This one athlete challenged?
- DLDaniil Liberman
One athlete.
- 2:20:32 – 2:26:38
Who/what makes for a good investment in this model?
- DLDaniil Liberman
It's like-
- SPSpeaker
So question about your investments.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes
- SPSpeaker
To the extent that, and we can look at it at least two different ways. So one could be your investors and why they chose to invest in you guys. But since you guys made the decisions about your investments, I'm curious about those people. How many of them, to what extent did you choose them based on their earning potential and so on, versus their potential to be a good ambassador or story for this model?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Right now-
- SPSpeaker
Because they both seem to matter, right?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. Now we, we care about both.
- SPSpeaker
So, so like a g- like a good investment may have the financial ROI, but there's also showcasing-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Obviously, because we have not that much money to invest in every people we want, we needed to pick those who will be a good story.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So definitely we, we look at both.
- SPSpeaker
Makes sense.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So in terms of investors in us, the first in investor who supported us was-
- DLDaniil Liberman
And who basically, you know, he did not allow us to-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Quit
- DLDaniil Liberman
... back, back, back, back, back off, back, back, back off. Like how to say back off.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Like, and we were almost ready to say like, oh, to give up and say like, okay, we're not doing this. And he's like, "No, no, no, guys, you have to do this. Like, please."
- DLDaniil Liberman
Sam Lessin.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
He actually had the similar idea when he was out of high school in 2001. He is one of the general partners of Slow Ventures.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Too early.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So he invested in us, but then other prominent names like Mark Andreessen or Chris Dixon or Josh Kushner, they, they all like invested-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Also now own a tiny share of The Libermans
- DLDaniil Liberman
... in Libermans. So but we earned it. So we, it didn't worked right away, but we made the first round, then we proved some results, then we made the second round. So like the startups. So when we invest, for us, definitely it means a lot that we want to find really great examples, because all these examples will affect the future of the idea, and this will help others to get access to, to the same type of resources.
- DLDaniil Liberman
But what's more important for us, the major thing is whether we believe in this assumption, if the person will continue building after failing.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, that's a big one. That's a big one, right?
- DLDaniil Liberman
I mean, because, because we invest-
- SPSpeaker
Because you're not just investing in one company or one idea
- 2:26:38 – 2:35:26
Do we reduce or elevate the potential for success by minimizing suffering?
- SPSpeaker
So, so this brings up something that I wasn't sure we would get to, but I, I figure I can bring it up. So-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Time machine. Is it possible? [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Well, well, there's the time machine, but there's also maybe the... And I go back and forth on how I feel about this, but the, I guess we could, we could look to the data if, if you have such data, and there is some it would seem. But the, maybe the over-fetishizing of suffering and how that contributes to success, or the belief that the more one struggles, the more likely you are to have outsized success. Because those make for good stories, right?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Somebody suffers for their whole life, and then they show how much they can persevere, and then they succeed. But if you look at, you know, some of the examples that you mentioned earlier of, like, the dropout and then the big company, these are not stories of abject suffering-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... from the earliest stages of childhood generally, right? So would you say, and this is tying it to what you just said, that by relieving some of those pressures with the mortgage and the kids, you're improving the likelihood of an, a bigger success later? Or somebody could certainly look at it and say, "Well, she's not gonna be as hungry."
- DLDaniil Liberman
So we have lots to say about this subject.
- SPSpeaker
That's why I'm asking. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
A, A, if we will look at the most successful experiment of all times for the humanity, providing free school education, free school education for everyone, doesn't matter whether they're a smartest kid in, on the street or not, like every kid, gave us more than any other investment which we, which we as a humanity, like infrastructures and stuff. No, providing free education is this.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Like a capital early on.
- DLDaniil Liberman
It, it was a controversial idea, like, 100 years ago, you know, like [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
It's an expensive investment-
- SPSpeaker
Hmm
- DLDaniil Liberman
... to give, to provide education for every kid. Expensive investment. And we scored a beautiful world, gave a lot to us. So providing a little bit more of the same can give us unexpe- unexpected results. The different perspective is if we'll look at majority of the unicorns created in United States, and look at who were the founders of those companies-
- SPSpeaker
And these are companies worth a billion or more
- DLDaniil Liberman
... those are companies worth a billion of more, or more. They, uh, what was it, like around-
- DLDaniil Liberman
A big share of them, like, uh-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Huge share
- DLDaniil Liberman
... most of them are from upper middle class families.
- DLDaniil Liberman
80%.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
They never struggled as us. You know, like, they never went through real, like, poverty type of situation-
- SPSpeaker
Poverty
- DLDaniil Liberman
... of hunger.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Losing all the money on the bank accounts and stuff like this.
- DLDaniil Liberman
You know, all the stories about dropouts-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Dropouts
- DLDaniil Liberman
... from high school, from college.
- 2:35:26 – 2:46:22
How to invest in people (and why you should).
- SPSpeaker
So question for you guys. I'll answer it first too. So what would you, what request would you like to make of my audience? So very, very diverse audience across many countries, many places. Most of them are interested on some level in technology. Not all of them. Well, let's be honest, all humans are interested in technology. They just might not recognize it as technology. [laughs]
- DLDaniil Liberman
As I said, like-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- DLDaniil Liberman
... limited liability company is a technology.
- SPSpeaker
Uh, is a technology, right. If, uh, we all use tools. That's the reason, [laughs] it's the reason that Homo sapiens have done what they've done, good and bad. But, you know, my request from, for my audience would be to send me links to some of the biological and biophysics topics that you both discussed earlier. Very interested in all of that, including quantum effects in, and potentially, you know, bird vision or olfaction. All of this is of great interest to me. So people can shoot those to me on Twitter, @tferriss, or elsewhere. But what requests would you like to make of my audience or places you'd like to point them? Anything at all.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Two things. First, there is a conference about quantum biology in near San Diego in 20s, like 18th of August.
- DLDaniil Liberman
18 to 20.
- SPSpeaker
All right. Here we go. Look at that.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Like best scientists-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Consciousness
- DLDaniil Liberman
... right now are gathering. And still like, you know, like still a quite a small group of people. That's why they really supportive to each other even though they-
- DLDaniil Liberman
And open to talk
- DLDaniil Liberman
... should compete with each other. But they, they actually are quite supportive, uh, to each other. We, we will be in the conference as well.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So but what we would ask is actually to first to think who would be those individuals you would invest in.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Likely all of us have someone who we're like, "This guy is gonna be very successful."
- DLDaniil Liberman
Uh, second is, uh, send this information out to us. So if you know the great person-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Let us know. Let us know
- DLDaniil Liberman
... you would invest, you would invest. You would invest your money in like-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Probably we also should invest
- DLDaniil Liberman
... let us know.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
And the third one is think that maybe you should invest in this person as well. You know, like maybe it's your kid and you're a parent, and maybe you should make an agreement [laughs] and actually invest in the person. Or-
- DLDaniil Liberman
Our agreement is publicly available online. You can all read it and check what the clauses in there. Like you can use this.
- SPSpeaker
And that's Libermans.co?
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. Libermans.co.
- DLDaniil Liberman
Yes. There is a agreement there.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- DLDaniil Liberman
So I would say that this is request. So first think about these people you would invest in. Send out the information about them to us.
- 2:46:22 – 2:47:51
Parting thoughts.
- SPSpeaker
ever. [laughs] Right. So I think everybody listening has, has a good amount to think about, and they have options for communicating with you. They can go to Libermans.co to see examples of the agreements, right? The types of contracts that have this participation in future earnings potential and outcomes of individuals. They can go to humanism.is to fill out a form after they think about which of their friends, which of their peer group, which of their circle they would most invest their own savings into. And they can also consider doing that themselves with the templates that you've provided. We've got the Instagram book and course for those interested in exploring coding, and the Instagram is instagram.com/libermans. David, Daniil, Daniil, thank you so much for taking the time today. Thank you. It's awesome. Ab- absolute pleasure. Yeah. Absolute pleasure. So much fun to traverse so much ground with you. And for everybody listening, as per usual, we'll have extensive show notes linked to all the resources, everything that was mentioned, and we'll track down a few things here and there, including links to, might have been in Wall Street Journal, but the sports example. Mm-hmm. And you can peruse those at your leisure at tim.blog/podcast. And until next time, be a little bit kinder than is necessary to others, but also to yourself. And as always, thanks for tuning in
Episode duration: 2:48:13
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Transcript of episode 5zP75PCZ_P0
