Tim FerrissThe Strategies and Tactics for Building a Bestseller from Nothing — Elan Lee of Exploding Kittens
CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 0:26
Open-ended brainstorming and the “Zero Effect” mindset
Elan Lee explains why starting with a rigid target can sabotage brainstorming, and why searching for “anything” keeps idea generation pleasurable. Tim Ferriss frames this as a series of “what if” experiments where failure is expected and useful.
- •Elan Lee warns against fixating on finding one specific idea because the odds of hitting it are low
- •He describes the “Zero Effect”: if you’re looking for anything, success is guaranteed because you’ll find something
- •Brainstorming becomes enjoyable when you allow imperfect discoveries and plan to tweak later
- •Tim Ferriss connects the process to rapid “what if” iterations
- 0:26 – 4:04
What Coyote is and why Tim wanted to make a game
Tim introduces the card game Coyote and describes it as a gesture-driven game with both cooperative and competitive modes. He shares how early experiences with Dungeons & Dragons and simpler board games shaped a lifelong desire to create something that generates memorable shared experiences.
- •Tim presents Coyote as a gesture/action card game with modifiers and optional cooperative or competitive play
- •He links his motivation to childhood refuge and magic found in Dungeons & Dragons
- •Tim emphasizes wanting an off-screen activity that deepens connection with close friends
- •Elan celebrates the milestone: Tim made a game after decades of wanting to
- 4:04 – 8:17
Elan Lee’s background and the ‘two minutes to learn’ design philosophy
Elan gives a concise bio and explains the core product philosophy behind Exploding Kittens: simple, fast, repeatable games. Tim connects this to the adult reality of limited time and the difficulty of recruiting people for long, complex rulesets.
- •Elan identifies as co-creator and CEO of Exploding Kittens and mentions the company’s scale in games sold
- •He explains his aversion to games that take longer than five minutes to explain
- •Elan states a guiding rule: roughly ‘two minutes to learn, 15 minutes to play’
- •Tim describes pivoting away from complex RPG ambitions toward casual social games
- 8:17 – 19:19
Retail reality check: line reviews, buyers, and why selling is half the work
Elan breaks down how major retailers decide what gets shelf space and why access to buyers is scarce. He stresses that designing the game and selling the game are inseparable if the goal is broad distribution.
- •Elan explains category buyers, limited shelf space, and twice-yearly ‘line reviews’
- •He notes each line review includes many pitches and retailers choose what to stock for the next year
- •Getting the meeting is as hard as having a strong pitch once you’re in the room
- •Elan argues selling/distribution effort is comparable to the design effort for wide release
- 19:19 – 29:27
Collaboration origin: sprints, friendship, and choosing projects for the process
Tim describes how he began collaborating more intentionally—delegating differently and doing creative sprints with others. Both reflect on how repeated meetups built trust and a shared sense that the project would be worthwhile even if it didn’t ship.
- •Tim contrasts ‘figure-it-out delegation’ with over-specified instructions to reduce decision fatigue
- •He sets a goal of ‘sprints with creatives’ to avoid solo creative work
- •Both recall early meetups focused more on playing games and building vocabulary than making progress
- •Tim cites a reframing: choosing projects where the process alone is worth it
- 29:27 – 34:08
Toronto breakthrough: from Hanabi to Rock, Paper, Scissors—and ‘playing each other’
A Toronto sprint with a third collaborator becomes the turning point: cooperative gameplay inspiration comes from Hanabi, and the key spark comes from Tim’s love of Rock, Paper, Scissors over multiple rounds. Elan explains how repetition transforms simple mechanics into social mind games.
- •Tim recounts the Toronto trip as the make-or-break sprint that finally produced momentum
- •Hanabi reinforces the appeal of cooperative play and elegant design
- •Rock, Paper, Scissors becomes a seed idea once framed as a multi-round, player-reading experience
- •Elan explains the shift from ‘playing the game’ to ‘playing each other’ beginning in round two
- 34:08 – 42:17
Rapid prototyping with Sharpies: building Coyote’s core loop
Elan shows how the earliest version was built from blank cards and markers, adding modifiers until patterns became challenging and fun. They iterated by playing, noting what worked, rewriting cards, and replaying—quickly moving from months of stalling to major progress in days.
- •Elan starts with a minimal baseline and adds modifier cards to create challenge and variety
- •Early ideas included color-based rules, skipping players, and other simple twists; some concepts (like shouting) were cut
- •They iterated in tight loops: play a few rounds, discuss, create more cards, and replay
- •Elan identifies the key indicator: finishing a session and immediately wanting to ‘play again’
- 42:17 – 48:12
Books and principles that shaped the design process
Tim and Elan recommend resources and connect game design thinking to real-life systems and incentives. Elan highlights two books—one explicitly about fun and game design, and one about behavior shaping that reframes responsibility for user experience.
- •Elan recommends ‘A Theory of Fun’ as a foundational game design book
- •He recommends ‘Don’t Shoot the Dog’ for the mindset that user confusion is the designer’s responsibility
- •Tim argues learning game design helps reveal the ‘games’ people are already playing in life
- •Elan notes game theory concepts can help people avoid missteps by recognizing incentive structures
- 48:12 – 51:24
Beginner’s mind instructions: simplicity, self-correcting rules, and QR-video learning
Elan explains that instruction quality can make or break a great game, because the designer won’t be present to clarify confusion. He emphasizes stripping out exceptions and writing rules from a beginner’s perspective, supported by a video option for faster learning.
- •Elan says rules should be simple enough to be ‘almost self-correcting’ and warns against ‘except’ clauses
- •He describes writing instructions as if the designer is in the room anticipating confusion
- •Tim describes extensive iterative editing to remove ambiguity and define terms precisely
- •They include a QR code because reading is a poor way to learn games compared to watching a video
- 51:24 – 57:19
Less complication = more fun: components, public information, and underdog mechanics
Elan outlines a core heuristic: if a component isn’t necessary, remove it—and gives examples from Coyote. They also discuss how public information changes social dynamics and how attack/sabotage mechanics can prevent dominant players from steamrolling everyone.
- •Elan’s rule: remove any component that doesn’t need to be in the game; they cut items like extra tokens by using cards instead
- •He contrasts private hands with public choices, arguing public decisions create more player interaction
- •Tim describes the problem of highly specialized players dominating and the need for comeback tools
- •They credit the attack-card idea as a way for trailing players to sabotage leaders and rebalance play
- 57:19 – 1:09:12
Cognitive challenge and the ‘sweet spot’ of difficulty progression
Tim frames the game as fun first but also potentially a ‘Trojan horse’ for cognitive effort, while noting no formal study has tested that. Elan describes the sensation of new patterns ‘clicking’ and explains how good games repeatedly deliver the cycle of ‘I can do that’ followed by ‘now I need to level up.’
- •Tim describes wanting the game to stay fun while also pushing cognition, without claiming proof
- •Elan compares the learning curve to practicing drums until patterns suddenly become possible
- •Tim notes players discover personal strengths and weaknesses (e.g., trouble with skipping)
- •Elan explains ramp design: players must feel ‘I can do that,’ then see a path to mastery, repeatedly
- 1:09:12 – 1:18:03
Exploding Kittens’ output and what made ‘Hurry Up, Chicken Butt’ explode
Elan shares how many games the company now releases annually and what sells at the top of their catalog. He details the design criteria he used for a kids-and-parents game and shows how naming and packaging decisions were tested with real children.
- •Elan describes the company’s publishing volume growing dramatically over time
- •He names top sellers and notes ‘Hurry Up, Chicken Butt’ was designed largely with his four-year-old daughter
- •He lists three success criteria: fun for parent and child, child can win without being handed wins, and no losers
- •He explains naming tests with kids produced an immediate, unmistakable winner and led into packaging challenges
- 1:18:03 – 1:30:18
Playtesting beyond the industry norm: Kitty Test Pilots, video review, and iteration cadence
Elan critiques standard one-way-mirror market research as unrealistic because people don’t usually play with strangers. He describes building a long-term community of external testers who submit recorded sessions, enabling the team to diagnose real friction points—especially around instructions.
- •Elan says typical paid testing with strangers is ‘fundamentally flawed’ for party games
- •He built ‘Kitty Test Pilots’ by mailing prototypes to families/friends groups in exchange for recorded play sessions
- •The key question at the end is whether testers want to play again, but video reveals truth behind polite answers
- •They review videos at high speed, flag moments, and iterate in small batches (e.g., sending only a few copies per version)
- 1:30:18 – 1:40:04
From packaging tests to retail commitment: how Coyote won big line reviews
They describe testing box art and characters through large-scale surveys, reducing opinion battles by running experiments. Elan recounts how an in-room gameplay demo plus a heartfelt video from Tim helped secure unusually broad retailer commitments early on.
- •Tim explains using survey tools to test cover/box variants and quickly find strong preference signals
- •Elan praises the practice of defaulting to ‘Let’s test it’ instead of debating aesthetics
- •Elan describes the Walmart line review: demo the game first, then show Tim’s video to convey story and passion
- •He says the meeting resulted in a full-line purchase commitment far beyond their typical initial rollout
- 1:40:04 – 2:04:01
Line review strategy: agents, meeting choreography, sequencing, and modern marketing proof
Elan details the mechanics of winning line reviews: representation matters, meetings must be orchestrated, and demos must create emotion quickly. He explains why agents are critical for credibility and preparation, how pitch sequencing works, and why short-form social video now dominates marketing plans.
- •Elan says strong agent representation is crucial both for credibility and for pre-solving meeting landmines
- •He describes pitching by forcing quick gameplay experiences rather than describing games one by one
- •He shares sequencing strategy: a ‘warm-up’ product first, the ‘glory spot’ second, then additional pitches with diminishing returns late in the meeting
- •Elan says modern retail buyers increasingly care most about social media strategy and evidence of short-form video performance
- 2:04:01 – 2:34:50
Paths to selling a game: why hybrid crowdfunding + publisher is his favorite
Elan lays out three routes—self-publishing, pitching publishers, and crowdfunding—then argues the best approach combines crowdfunding proof with publisher distribution. He discusses why crowdfunding is harder now, why fulfillment credibility matters, and what publishers look for in deal terms.
- •Elan dismisses self-publishing as costly because you pay for every mistake and can’t undo them
- •He says pitching publishers can work but slots are scarce; conventions can help scouts find games
- •Crowdfunding provides both funding and discovery, but platform trust eroded after many projects failed to deliver
- •His preferred path: succeed on crowdfunding, ship successfully, collect testimonials/videos, then approach publishers with proof; he also explains royalty rates are often a small percentage of revenue (top line), not profit
- 2:34:50 – 2:43:41
Business risks and contracts: returns, counterfeits, and why experts matter
Elan and Tim describe how post-sale policies and contract details can make or break a product, even a good one. They highlight return abuse, counterfeit swaps, and the ‘hug of death’ scenario where bad terms and cash flow strain destroy otherwise promising businesses.
- •Elan distinguishes between simply selling inventory and negotiating restrictions on how retailers can handle unsold product
- •He describes costly Amazon return dynamics, including damaged returns and counterfeit swap returns
- •Tim stresses agreements matter most when everything goes wrong, and gives examples of overextension and delayed payment terms crushing companies
- •Both argue the safest move is hiring people who have seen every failure mode rather than learning every hard lesson firsthand
- 2:43:41 – 2:52:11
Closing resources, Elan’s new YouTube channel, and the Coyote ‘mansion party’ promotion
Elan shares additional learning resources and explains he began documenting how to make games step-by-step on a new YouTube channel. Tim inserts the updated sweepstakes-style promotion details (inside a sponsor read), then both close with gratitude and a reiteration of making games as a way to build durable memories offline.
- •Elan recommends the ‘Fun Problems’ podcast for more game design discussion
- •He says the collaboration inspired him to start documenting game design and launch a YouTube channel with instructional content
- •Tim provides the updated promotional offer details for participating via social posts (embedded in a sponsor segment)
- •They end by emphasizing experimentation, expecting early failures, and using games to build shared memories away from screens
