Tony Robbins Interview: Part 2 (Full Episode) | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)

1. 0:00 – 5:36

   Asset Classes and the Math of Losses

   1. TFTim Ferriss0:00

      Optimal windows. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

   2. TRTony Robbins0:06

      Can I ask you a personal question? Now would seem an appropriate time.

   3. TFTim Ferriss0:10

      What if I did the opposite?

   4. TRTony Robbins0:12

      I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton. The Tim Ferriss Show.

   5. TFTim Ferriss0:25

      Well, hello there, my dear little munchkins. This is Tim Ferriss. I've had some caffeine since you last heard from me. What you're about to hear is part two of a multi-part conversation with Tony Robbins. To put it briefly, Tony Robbins is a performance strategist with clients including presidents like Bill Clinton, Mother Teresa, not making this up, Andre Agassi, Leonardo DiCaprio, and Oprah Winfrey, who calls him superhuman. This guy is a force of nature. If you didn't catch the first part, you might want to do that before venturing in, but really we jump around a lot, cover a lot of different topics. So if you don't mind your stories as more of a jigsaw puzzle, then by all means, keep on listening from this point on. This episode is brought to you by 99designs.com, the largest marketplace of graphic designers in the world. Here's how it works. You go to 99designs.com, I suggest /tim for reasons I'll explain, and whether you need to create a logo, a website, a car wrap, a bumper sticker, whatever it might be, a T-shirt, you can put up what you need, a description, then designers around the world compete for your business by submitting ideas and designs and so on, and in less than a week, you have an original design that you love or you get all your money back. And I have used 99designs for years, including for some very big projects like the book cover, or at least, uh, brainstorming book cover ideas for The 4-Hour Body, which went on to become a number one New York Times bestseller and is in, I don't know, a dozen plus languages and has sold a gajillion copies. So I have used it when time and money has been of the essence. It is a fantastic tool, and if you go to 99designs.com/tim, you can actually see some of the campaigns, some of the competitions that I've run. So actual submissions for the book covers and things like that. You can also get a $99 upgrade for free, which gets you more submissions. So check it out, 99designs.com/tim. And now, without further ado, please enjoy part two, the final part, of The Tim Ferriss Show with Tony Robbins. And to, to touch on a few things that you mentioned, uh, for those people asking themselves, as I'm sure a lot of people would, how, how can I apply what these guys do to what I do? And I think that you, you present a number of observations articulated very, very well that most people will never be exposed to. For instance, uh, number one, asset allocation does not mean choosing if you are going to be a stock picker or invest in an index fund for the S&P 500, because those are both-- You're, you're in one bucket right there.

   6. TRTony Robbins3:17

      That's right. You're still-

   7. TFTim Ferriss3:18

      You're in a correlated class.

   8. TRTony Robbins3:19

      That's right.

   9. TFTim Ferriss3:20

      And-

   10. TRTony Robbins3:20

       There's no diversification in that.

   11. TFTim Ferriss3:21

       Right. There's more-

   12. TRTony Robbins3:21

       Well, there's some. There's diversification of maybe more companies-

   13. TFTim Ferriss3:24

       Yeah

   14. TRTony Robbins3:24

       ... but it's all within the same asset class.

   15. TFTim Ferriss3:25

       Yeah. And the, the other thing is that there are ways, uh, there are th- there are ways to look at the problem, um, that are not obvious right off the bat. For instance, uh, you mentioned something that's so simple but a lot of people miss. If, if you invest and you lose fifty percent, you have to now have a hundred percent gain to get back to break even. Put another way, uh, and this is also straight from the book, if you-- Let's just say you, uh, I think it was investing over, uh, it was either five or ten years. Uh, the, the exact number is in the book. But-- And you had, uh, you'd invested in the stock market through a, let's just call it sort of off-the-shelf mutual fund that charges typical fees.

   16. TRTony Robbins4:07

       Yeah.

   17. TFTim Ferriss4:07

       And the market moves up and down, up and down, up and down. At the end of that period of time, you're back at the same market levels.

   18. TRTony Robbins4:13

       Yes.

   19. TFTim Ferriss4:14

       You would think if you put in a hundred grand, you'd be, you'd, you'd have a hundred grand at the end of that period of time.

   20. TRTony Robbins4:18

       Yes.

   21. TFTim Ferriss4:18

       And it ends up that you're what, forty-seven percent down?

   22. TRTony Robbins4:20

       Yeah.

   23. TFTim Ferriss4:20

       Something obscene.

   24. TRTony Robbins4:21

       It's, it's, it's the idea of average rates of return. So if a lot of people look at their, what they've invested, and their, their broker or their whoever represents them will show them their portfolio and go, "Well, look, you know, you went up, you started here, you went up fifty percent, you went down fifty, but you went up fifty, you went down fifty. So your average rate of return is zero." But when I put real dollars in there, a hundred thousand dollars, and you go up fifty or a hundred and fifty, you go down fifty-

   25. TFTim Ferriss4:46

       Yeah

   26. TRTony Robbins4:46

       ... you're at seventy-five. You go up fifty, oops.

   27. TFTim Ferriss4:48

       Yeah.

   28. TRTony Robbins4:49

       And then you go down, and you end up at thirty-seven thousand dollars instead of a hundred thousand dollars.

   29. TFTim Ferriss4:53

       Yeah.

   30. TRTony Robbins4:53

       'Cause your principal's moving up and down. So there are all these ways we could delude. The biggest one, the biggest lie, you know, in the book, I walk you through seven steps, and one of those steps is, frankly, you've got to do what most of us guys, probably people listening on your team already do, and that is you've got to become an investor. You've got to be an owner, not a consumer.
2. 5:36 – 10:39

   Automating Savings and the Mutual Fund Lies

   1. TRTony Robbins5:36

      Yeah, totally automate, which is fantastic. So, you know, they took, they took a group of blue-collar workers who couldn't save more than three percent, and they showed in twelve years they end up with sixteen percent with absolutely no sense of loss. Because, you know, once-- If I-- They show this with example. Behaviorists showed me that if you, if you give a monkey an apple, they go crazy. And you give them two apples, and they go crazy. And if you take one of the two apples back, they're angry as hell. They still have the same first apple.

   2. TFTim Ferriss5:59

      Yeah.

   3. TRTony Robbins5:59

      What happens is if you don't give them that second apple, but it gets invested for them, you know, that changes your world. You don't feel a sense of loss. There's no drop. And yet you set yourself up saving fifteen, sixteen, seventeen percent at a totally different world than three or nothing, obviously. The second piece that I got through that brought this up for is You gotta n- it's great to get in the game, but oh my God, don't get in the game till you understand the rules, till you're an insider. And so I go through the nine biggest lies. They're, and they're, they're investment lies, they're Wall Street lies, however you wanna call them, but they're marketed lies. There's a reason you believe them.

   4. TFTim Ferriss6:30

      Very heavily marketed lies.

   5. TRTony Robbins6:31

      Very heavily marketed to the advantage, right? And one of those is this idea that they're gonna beat the market. Now here's the real facts: 96%, check it out, 96% of all mutual funds in a 10-year period will never even match the market. Now you're paying a premium. You could have owned an index that cost you 20 basis points, right, at Vanguard, or 14 basis points, depending on which, what, what index you're dealing with. Instead you're paying, they say 1%. Now you ask people, "What? Oh, it's just 1%." In reality, if you go through, Forbes has shown the average mutual fund, when you put all fees in, if you read the prospectus, and there's all these 21B trading f- [laughs] all these things that don't... They don't call fees very often, but they're money out of your pocket. The average is 3.1%. Now when you do that, here's the problem. Number one, only 4%. What's your chance of picking the 4% of mutual funds that are gonna be succeed? If you go through Morningstar, you're screwed, 'cause I can show you statistically Morningstar's own statistics that show in a 10-year period, out of 250 people that made it to five-star Morningstar, four are left. Doesn't work that way, right? So if you could pick the 4%, if you were magically able to do that, you could do all right, but the 4%'s always changing. So your chances of picking the right mutual fund are 96% against you. And the average person's 401 [k] at work, they don't know how to evaluate this. They try and pick it so they're screwed. And then you get poor performance, and you pay somewhere between 10 and 30 times more for the same investment you could've got for 30 times the, 10 to 30 times less. It's like the ultimate insult to injury. And you go, "Why does that matter?" Well first, let me give you this. So people understand what 96% means are getting a 4% possible success rate. If you and I play blackjack, most people know how to play, right? 21. You get two face cards, that's worth 20 points. If your inner idiot says, "Hit me," [laughs] right when you got two face cards and go 21, you have an 8% chance of success. You have a greater chance of success there-

   6. TFTim Ferriss8:23

      [laughs]

   7. TRTony Robbins8:23

      ... than you did if you were trying to find the right mutual fund. Now, what's your chance of success in getting financially free when, here's what's unbelievable. If, if I said to you, "Here's an investment I want you to try, Tim. Here's how it works. You put up all the money, you put up all the risk, and I will put up no money and I put up no risk. And if you win, I get up to 60% of your entire growth of what you have over the lifetime of your investing. You put up all the money, you, I take no risk, I put no money in. And if you lose, you lose, but I don't lose anything." That's a deal that most people said, "I'd never take in a million years." That's the average mutual fund.

   8. TFTim Ferriss8:59

      [laughs]

   9. TRTony Robbins8:59

      Because for every 1% you pay, it's 20% over the lifetime of your investments of growth. 'Cause just like there's compounded growth, there's compounded fees.

   10. TFTim Ferriss9:07

       Right.

   11. TRTony Robbins9:07

       So Bogle showed me 60%. I'm saying, "Jack, how is this possible? How could people be doing this?" Like he goes, "Tony, it's a $13 trillion lie, and it's called one thing: marketing."

   12. TFTim Ferriss9:16

       Yeah.

   13. TRTony Robbins9:16

       He says, "Marketing." He said, "I've been in the business 64 years, it makes me crazy, and people still do it. The vast majority of people put their money in a mutual fund." They had 'em in an index fund, and now, now he's come to, you know, be the largest mutual fund of the world with an index fund now with $2.5 trillion. I mean, Jack has been modified, but most of the smart money is there. It's not the average person's money that's in the index today.

   14. TFTim Ferriss9:34

       Yeah.

   15. TRTony Robbins9:34

       So I go through these lies and, and what you don't know in the financial world will hurt you. And the one you're talking about is just the average rate of return. You don't wanna be seduced. When you look at the rate of return, Bogle said to me, "Tony, whenever you see what the rate of return was and you're trying to evaluate that mutual fund based on its past performance, just know that number's not accurate." DALBAR did an incredible study, 20-year study. They found the average mutual fund owner over a 20-year period of time made 2.5% net. The a- market was 9.7%.

   16. TFTim Ferriss10:05

       [laughs]

   17. TRTony Robbins10:05

       That ought to give you a sense.

   18. TFTim Ferriss10:07

       Yeah.

   19. TRTony Robbins10:07

       So, you know, I, I, I went to go do this book, and I won't mention the person's name. I got all these incredible endorsements from everybody, Nobel Prize winners, right? Self-made billionaires, mu- all these guys. And there's a particular person that I, a really good friend of, I won't mention the name, but it was ironic. He wrote me back and said, "Well, my team's read it and they really don't think it's that, you know, that, that special." And I thought, "Well, I'm not insulted by that, but it's, doesn't make sense to me." And then I found [laughs] out this person has six mutual funds that they buy, right?

   20. TFTim Ferriss10:30

       [laughs]

   21. TRTony Robbins10:30

       So it's like, okay, I get it, dude.

   22. TFTim Ferriss10:32

       Yeah. Don't ask a barber if you need a haircut.

   23. TRTony Robbins10:34

       [laughs] That's my fault.

   24. TFTim Ferriss10:35

       Yeah.

   25. TRTony Robbins10:35

       I'm so sorry.

   26. TFTim Ferriss10:36

       [laughs]

   27. TRTony Robbins10:36

       Never should've asked that question.

   28. TFTim Ferriss10:37

       Sorry about that one. Yeah. [laughs]

   29. TRTony Robbins10:38

       Yeah, I, I shouldn't have told him.

   30. TFTim Ferriss10:39

       Uh,

3. 10:39 – 12:49

   Why Fees Matter and Why the Book Is Long

   1. TFTim Ferriss10:39

      so I, I should point out to folks also, uh, that it, it's, some people are very math-phobic. Part of the reason I went, uh, to Princeton, and it's funny, I was reading Carl Icahn's story and how he was, he was just, you had told, he was told he would never get into any Ivy League schools-

   2. TRTony Robbins10:55

      Yes. Yes

   3. TFTim Ferriss10:55

      ... and he chose Princeton. Same thing happened to me. I was told I would never get in-

   4. TRTony Robbins10:58

      Wow

   5. TFTim Ferriss10:58

      ... uh, to a whole host of schools because, and this is kinda like your, your mutual fund guy, pe- humans respond to incentives.

   6. TRTony Robbins11:05

      Yes.

   7. TFTim Ferriss11:05

      And this particular guidance counselor is incentivized for what? To optimize, to be able to say, "X number, X percentage of students got into their first-choice school." So how do you do that most easily?

   8. TRTony Robbins11:15

      Lower their expectations.

   9. TFTim Ferriss11:16

      Lower their expectations.

   10. TRTony Robbins11:17

       Yeah.

   11. TFTim Ferriss11:17

       Uh, but the, uh, I am intrinsically not someone with a lot of math background. Part of the reason I chose Princeton over other schools is because they didn't have a math requirement.

   12. TRTony Robbins11:26

       Yeah.

   13. TFTim Ferriss11:26

       And I think for a lot of people listening, they may be like, "Oh my God, percentages and compounding odds," it's very overwhelming. And I think that part of the reason your book had to be as long as it is, uh, and a book should be as long as it needs to be-

   14. TRTony Robbins11:38

       Yes

   15. TFTim Ferriss11:38

       ... is that if you were to try to compress it into 100 pages, it would be like watching a three-hour action movie but getting a frame every five minutes.

   16. TRTony Robbins11:48

       Yeah.

   17. TFTim Ferriss11:48

       You wouldn't... It, it would be too much in too little space. But when people read the book, when I read the book, uh, you're leading people in a logical progression from building block to building block to building block so that by the end, people are very, very savvy. And so people who are, who might be thinking, "Oh my God, this is, this is really a lot for me to absorb," it's-

   18. TRTony Robbins12:07

       Well, I probably talk 100 miles an hour.

   19. TFTim Ferriss12:08

       Yeah.

   20. TRTony Robbins12:08

       In the book, I'm telling you stories too, and I think the stories take it away so it's not numbers. You go, "Holy shit."

   21. TFTim Ferriss12:14

       Yeah.

   22. TRTony Robbins12:14

       If, if me and, if me and three of my friends all put aside the same amount of money and we both get a 7% return, but my buddy's getting fees of 3% My other buddy's two and I'm one, and we both put in- all three of us put a million bucks in or 100,000, however you wanna do it. Uh, the person with 3% of fees ends up with 65% less money, and they got the same rate of return.

   23. TFTim Ferriss12:37

       Yeah.

   24. TRTony Robbins12:37

       They start with the same amount of money over the same period of time.

   25. TFTim Ferriss12:40

       Mm-hmm.

   26. TRTony Robbins12:40

       And I think when you see that with real people's lives, you start to go, "I don't have to know the math. I just know one thing, fees matter, and I'm gonna cut those babies to the absolute base."

   27. TFTim Ferriss12:48

       Definitely.

4. 12:49 – 18:52

   Ray Dalio's Background and the All Weather Approach

   1. TFTim Ferriss12:49

      And, uh, I'd love to talk, you, you brought it up a little earlier, uh, Ray Dalio-

   2. TRTony Robbins12:53

      Yes

   3. TFTim Ferriss12:53

      ... and, uh, asset allocation. Uh, because this is something I've been thinking about a lot considering that, [chuckles] due to paper gains, I'd say I have, uh, very, very, very, very high double digits of my entire net worth in tech.

   4. TRTony Robbins13:06

      Hmm.

   5. TFTim Ferriss13:06

      Uh, and it's hard, unfortunately, to rebalance when you have a lot of private stock. [chuckles]

   6. TRTony Robbins13:10

      Yeah, of course.

   7. TFTim Ferriss13:10

      They can't be traded.

   8. TRTony Robbins13:11

      Been there.

   9. TFTim Ferriss13:12

      Uh, but, uh, you know how it is. So the... But, uh, Dalio is someone I've been fascinated by for so long. Um, maybe you could talk about the, the all seasons, uh, and what some of the stuff that you, that you chatted with him about as-

   10. TRTony Robbins13:24

       Sure

   11. TFTim Ferriss13:25

       ... as it relates to asset allocation.

   12. TRTony Robbins13:26

       It might be helpful for people to take a second and, and give people his background. I mean, Ray is not the guy you would think of as Master of the Universe. [chuckles] He comes from Queens. His dad was a jazz musician. His mom was a homemaker, really lovely lady. He went from, you know, very lower middle class family and decided that he wanted to go work at a golf course. He bumped into... You know, one of the things I talk about is proximity affects your life, who you're in proximity with, and he's around the proximity with the very wealthy people, and they're talking about stocks, and he got fascinated by it and got hooked on the process and then, you know, got involved in, in the stock business. And, but he got involved in a time period when the world was incredibly volatile, the 1970s, and we're all shaped by our time periods, right? And so if you can imagine, you know, that's a time we had this massive inflation where Nixon goes on television and says, "We're going off the gold standard, that money as you know it, called the US dollar, we're not gonna back up with anything." And he thought for sure the markets would just be destroyed. The American dollar is gonna be worthless. And instead, they had what was called the Nixon Rally. And it's like it shook him to his core that as much as you think you know, you don't know. And it gave him a lifelong focus that says, "I always wanna be asking, what do I not know? And how do I find-- understand the system as a whole, not just my perspective on the system?" And, um, so he started Bridgewater, and in fact, my friend Paul Tudor Jones gave him some of his initial capital to do this and is wishing he didn't loan it to him-

   13. TFTim Ferriss14:46

       [laughs]

   14. TRTony Robbins14:46

       ... but would've kept it as an investment, I think, at this stage 'cause Bridgewater gave him so gigantic. Um, but what happened was he's the guy the US government went to when they're trying to figure out how to design tips. I mean, this is the level of design. He's the guy that when McDonald's is trying to come out with egg, uh, with, with McNuggets, and they're trying to figure out, "How can we make sure we have enough supply of chicken?" And he's the one who figured out the math of futures and what to do so McDonald's could even do that. That's, that's the way this man's brain works. So over the years, he built this alpha fund, and it's very intensive, and he's lost money in twenty-three years three times on that fund. And the fund has returned 21% compounded for twenty-three years, just mind-boggling, before fees. And then turn around, and after all these years, he said, "You know, everybody talks about, you know, different stages of your life. You wanna protect yourself, so you do a balanced portfolio, 50%, 60% in stocks maybe and 40 or 50%, you know, if you're in bonds because, you know, when, when the stocks are more volatile, the bonds are gonna balance you out." And then he says, "You know, but didn't look that way in 2000. Didn't look good in 2000. It all went down 2008, right?"

   15. TFTim Ferriss15:47

       Right.

   16. TRTony Robbins15:47

       "So over the years," he said, "this is a story everybody buys, but it's not reality in a whole segments of time." So he began to pursue what he said, "What if I wasn't around? I need a passive, almost passive form of investment. I need something that wouldn't take 1,500 people that my kids could use that, you know, that would support all my philanthropic efforts if I wasn't here." And he perf- questioned everything about asset allocation that everybody's ever been taught and came up with a different way of looking at it where he basically said, "There are four things that move the price of any investment. It's inflation and deflation and whether the economy is growing or shrinking, and that creates four different seasons in which every s- every type of investment, stocks, commodities, gold, uh, real estate, it has an ideal environment in which it grows. It has environments in which it, it will absolutely slam." And so he figured out, what's the right combination of these things so that I can reduce the risk to the lowest level of loss possible? Which, you know, Warren Buffett's rules, everybody talks about the rule, right? It isn't Warren Buffett's rule, it actually comes from his teacher, which was, you know, rule number one to investing, don't lose money. Rule number two, see rule number one, right? So how do I make that happen but also maximize the amount upside, as much upside as possible? He called it his All Weather Fund 'cause it works in all weather, and he did all his own investing in it for ten years, and he back-tested it all the way to, uh, 1925 and said, "Oh my God, I have discovered something unbelievable." So the only people who got to use this is he, and then finally his clients, the $5 billion net worth, the governments, the pension funds. So I've read about it and, you know, Ray does very few interviews, as I'm sure you know. You go online, you won't find a whole lot, you know, in front of the Congress, you know, maybe at Davos every now and then. He kind of avoids any publicity and so forth. And I did all my homework on him. I, you know, Paul Tudor is one of his dearest friends, arranged to go see him, spelled it all out, and I was prepared. And then I go into this meeting and I, I start asking him. I asked him a question I ask everybody, which was, if you can't-- if you couldn't pass on any of your money to your children, none, all you could pass on was a set of principles, an investment strategy, and a portfolio, what would it be? For your kids, they don't have your skill. Everybody gave me different answers, but his answer was, "Well, it'd be my all, you know, all weather approach." I said, "So explain to me how it works." He explained it. At the end of it, just like me telling it to you right now real fast, you know, people are probably going, "I don't have a clue what he just said. It's, seems logical." [chuckles] Um, but the one thing he said is, "Tony, is when people think they've got a balanced portfolio, stocks are three times more volatile than bonds. So when you're 50/50, you're really 90/10."

   17. TFTim Ferriss18:15

       Yep.

   18. TRTony Robbins18:15

       "You really are massively at risk, and that's why when the markets go down, you get eaten alive." So he has this portfolio, he describes principles. I said, I said, "You know what, Ray?" I said, "This is spectacular. I understand it." But he said, "The only way you really get the result from this is if you know the exact percentages." It's like if you got a f- you, you know, if you got somebody's recipe and you put in a gallon when they put in a teaspoon [laughs] of-

   19. TFTim Ferriss18:36

       Right

   20. TRTony Robbins18:37

       ... a particular ingredient, you're messed up. So I said, "I need the secret sauce."

   21. TFTim Ferriss18:41

       Yeah.

   22. TRTony Robbins18:41

       And he looks at me and laughs. He goes, "Tony, I, y- that's my business." And that's when he gave me the whole $5 billion net worth and, [laughs] you know, gotta have 100 million. I said, "Yeah, Ray, but you just got done telling me you haven't taken anybody's money for 10 years and you're not gonna take anybody's money."

   23. TFTim Ferriss18:52

       Right.

5. 18:52 – 21:45

   Getting Dalio's Simple Strategy and Testing It

   1. TRTony Robbins18:52

      He goes, "Yeah, but, you know, it's really complex and..." I said, "I know it is, but give me a simple version." And he said, "No, you know, it, it's always changing." I said, "Give me a version with no leverage that the average person can do. You just got done telling me they go into their broker, go into their wealth manager, and, you know, going to their mutual fund's not gonna work. So help the little guy out. I know you care." And I started teasing him. I said, "Come on, you know, give me the juice." He started laughing. He goes, "Well," he said, "I could give you something. It wouldn't be perfect." I said, "I don't want perfect. Your m- worst design will be the best design anybody else will ever come up with, right?" So I got him going. He said, "Well, we might do..." And he lays out this simple strategy.

   2. TFTim Ferriss19:24

      Mm-hmm.

   3. TRTony Robbins19:25

      And I was vibrating. I mean, I was, like, vibrating. It just s- I could... I knew what his generosity level was. It was unbelievable. He's never revealed it to anyone in history. And I ran as fast as I could. I got in the helicopter, flew back, went to the guys at Hightower, I went to the guys at, uh, at two other firms. And I said, "I want you to run these numbers. Show me the modern period. Show me the last 30 years. What really happened with this formula every single year for 30 years, and what's the overall for the 30 years?" 'Cause that's... I look at 30 years, 1984, you know, that's when we finally had cell phones even, right?

   4. TFTim Ferriss19:54

      Mm-hmm.

   5. TRTony Robbins19:54

      That's when the world started to shift. Show me 40 years and show me 75 years. Take me back right before the Depression even, right? And the guy, the guy texted me. I'm, uh, in the middle of the night, and he never texts me. And he says, "Have you seen the numbers?" And so I'll never forget. I, I get up, I call him on the phone. I said, "What? No, I haven't seen them." He emails them to me. And Ray was right 85 to 86% of the time, every time period we look at, between 85 and 86, 30 years, 40 years, 75 years. What that mean... And by the way, that's being liberal because the 15% where he lost money, the most he ever lost was 3.95% in 75 years. And that was 2008 when the market was from peak to trough was down 51%. The average loss, including that, was 1.9%. So, like, for example, you know, one of his losses was 0.03. I mean, really it was break even, but we called it a loss 'cause it's technically it's a loss. If you could go to Vegas, and you knew that for 75 years the strategy you used had been successful 85% of the time, and that when you lost, the most you lost was 1.9%, how much would you bet? How long would you, [laughs] you know, continue-

   6. TFTim Ferriss21:01

      Yeah

   7. TRTony Robbins21:01

      ... to gamble? I mean, it's not hard to figure it out. So, I mean, I mismatched it. I took it, I took it to some very large institutions. Then they're like, "I've never seen anything like this." So a couple of people said to me, you know, "This, let's just... Don't put this in the book. This is gon- this is a business, man. [laughs] This is a business."

   8. TFTim Ferriss21:15

      Yeah.

   9. TRTony Robbins21:15

      "This'll, this will give you the lowest level of volatility, the highest level of return." It averages just under 10% return with that little volatility. It's mind-boggling. So I said, "You know what? That's not the spirit it was shared in."

   10. TFTim Ferriss21:26

       Yeah.

   11. TRTony Robbins21:26

       I said, uh, you know, "We can do this for people if they wanna do it. We can get that option, but I'm putting it in the book so anybody can do it," and it's in the book right then and there.

   12. TFTim Ferriss21:33

       Right.

   13. TRTony Robbins21:33

       And, you know, it's not the only one. There's-

   14. TFTim Ferriss21:34

       Yeah

   15. TRTony Robbins21:35

       ... strategies for everybody.

   16. TFTim Ferriss21:35

       No, that's why I said-

   17. TRTony Robbins21:36

       But it's one of the more exciting ones that you'll see.

   18. TFTim Ferriss21:38

       Is there anything, totally up to you, but just is there anything you can share from what, uh, what he told you about the, uh, the All Weather?

6. 21:45 – 26:57

   Context, Stronghold, and Swensen's Portfolio

   1. TRTony Robbins21:45

      Well, the, the, I, I don't think-

   2. TFTim Ferriss21:46

      And I will just say as a preface-

   3. TRTony Robbins21:47

      Yes, yes

   4. TFTim Ferriss21:48

      ... there, there is so much in this book. Number one, I've had also people say to me, for instance, I'm not gonna name any of my close friends, but, uh, you know, like, "Yeah, four-hour body, blah, blah, blah, that's fine. Give me the index card." And so-

   5. TRTony Robbins21:57

      [laughs] I know, I know

   6. TFTim Ferriss21:58

      ... and I give them the index card, and there's, there's context missing-

   7. TRTony Robbins22:01

      Exactly

   8. TFTim Ferriss22:02

      ... and, and they also... It's not just because they, they can't, in some cases, do it 'cause they're missing the detail. They won't do it. So get the book. Do yourself a favor.

   9. TRTony Robbins22:10

      I'm not holding back on that.

   10. TFTim Ferriss22:10

       I-

   11. TRTony Robbins22:10

       I don't think you can read a damn book anyway.

   12. TFTim Ferriss22:11

       No, I-

   13. TRTony Robbins22:11

       The reason, the reason I wouldn't share that is because it'll be out of context. But even in the book, I tell people in the first chapter, I tell them this result.

   14. TFTim Ferriss22:18

       Yeah.

   15. TRTony Robbins22:18

       I give one example. And I say, "I know the first thing you're gonna wanna do is turn back to that [laughs] section of the book and look." And I said, "You can do it, but I caution you. There's a syntax."

   16. TFTim Ferriss22:25

       Yeah.

   17. TRTony Robbins22:25

       "There's a sequence. The dog, the joint, jump, the dog. And if you will go through the sequence, it's gonna be more. If you know that portfolio, but you don't know truthfully what your risk tolerance is, you don't know truly what your personal goals are, you don't know what you need to avoid on the fee structure and the tax structures-

   18. TFTim Ferriss22:40

       Mm-hmm

   19. TRTony Robbins22:41

       ... then that return won't be very great for you."

   20. TFTim Ferriss22:42

       Yeah.

   21. TRTony Robbins22:43

       "And more importantly, you won't go through the psychology that'll make you actually follow through for a while."

   22. TFTim Ferriss22:46

       Yeah.

   23. TRTony Robbins22:46

       But if people wanna do it, by the way, I then went to, um, Hightower, which is the fifth largest registered investment advisory in the United States, 30 billion in assets, 13th fastest growing Inc. Magazine company, fastest growing company. Amazing. Elliott is the CEO. Blown away by this man. I did an interview with him, and I left there going, "This man is committed to total transparency. This man blows out all those fees, all the s-" to say it in the nicest way possible, screwing over that happens to most clients. He eliminates that. He, he's a former litigator. He's got a moral code that's pretty intense. I loved him. So I came back, and I called him up and said, "Let's meet again." And met again, and I said, "You know, I, I got a challenge for you." I said, "How about you do this for everybody else?" He said, "What are you talking about?" I said, "How about for the average man that really needs it?" He said, "What are you talking about?" I said, "Bring that ultra-wealthy advice to them. Show them on a small scale how they c- they can do what your ultra-wealthy client does." He goes, "Tony, you can't make money doing that." I said, "You don't need to make money doing it." And I'm doing a book. I'm not making any money doing it. I said, "A part of our life has to be for something more." And I said, "I know that's what you're about." I said, "But I'm not talking about putting your business at risk." I said, "Let's use technology. Technology with live people, the balance."

   24. TFTim Ferriss23:51

       Mm-hmm.

   25. TRTony Robbins23:51

       And so we built together a site. I put him together with this group called Stronghold, which is brilliant. They've been managing my money for me for up to seven years. Ajay Gupta, he's actually, uh, the person that Charles Schwab put on the cover of most magazines, uh, for the last year as kind of the, the face of the 10,000, you know, registered investment advisory fiduciaries around the world and around the country. And, uh, the two of them got together, created a site, and it's kind of like check your broker. So now you can go online, and you can put in all your accounts. It'll aggregate them. It's a patented technology. You get to see, A, what your real costs are on everything, all in one picture.

   26. TFTim Ferriss24:23

       Mm-hmm.

   27. TRTony Robbins24:23

       So there's no BS. Versus what you could have the same [laughs] investments for.

   28. TFTim Ferriss24:26

       Right.

   29. TRTony Robbins24:26

       Right? It's like why would I pay more? Second thing it does is it shows you what your real returns have been combined, what, versus what you think they are. And third, it shows you what your volatility levels have been, the amount of risk you're taking, so you know. And then fourthly, it does a comparison to that versus other portfolios, including the one designed by Ray Dalio. And you can go, "Wow, do I wanna do this?" If, if you're a person like half the US with less than 25,000 investable assets, you get to do the whole thing for free. It's given to you, go do it. If you are not, you have more money, you can still do it for free. You can do it yourself. Or you can push a button and say, "I'd like you to become my registered investment advisor," and somebody can do it. So I got them to do it saying, mostly people you're never gonna see anything from, but wealthy people started not wealthy, right?

   30. TFTim Ferriss25:04

       Right.
7. 26:57 – 30:44

   Planning for Crashes, Power Laws, and Diversification

   1. TFTim Ferriss26:57

      So a couple things I'd love to, to just underscore for folks. The first is, and, and, and again, this is pulling stuff from the book. I'm gonna paraphrase some of it. But I think it was Dalio who said something along the lines of, uh, like, losers react, winners anticipate. Um-

   2. TRTony Robbins27:12

      That's actually me, but that's okay.

   3. TFTim Ferriss27:13

      It's you.

   4. TRTony Robbins27:13

      [laughs] I'll give it to Ray Dalio.

   5. TFTim Ferriss27:14

      Well, you know what? I give.

   6. TRTony Robbins27:14

      [laughs] It'll sound better coming out of him.

   7. TFTim Ferriss27:15

      Take that as a, take that as a compliment.

   8. TRTony Robbins27:17

      [laughs]

   9. TFTim Ferriss27:17

      No. But, but the point being that the, uh... And I guess Mark Twain quote is also in there, which was, uh, what? History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes.

   10. TRTony Robbins27:25

       Yeah.

   11. TFTim Ferriss27:26

       So there are going to be crashes. There are going to be-

   12. TRTony Robbins27:29

       For sure

   13. TFTim Ferriss27:29

       ... black swan events, and you want to have a plan in place for when that happens.

   14. TRTony Robbins27:35

       Exactly right.

   15. TFTim Ferriss27:35

       And the more you can automate your, uh, many of your financial decisions, you know, know when to hold them, know when to fold them, and actually have a plan going in. So if, if you buy something and have no plan for selling it, you're gonna be subject to sort of impulse reactions that will cause you to do what the vast majority of people do. They, they buy high, and they-

   16. TRTony Robbins27:55

       That's right

   17. TFTim Ferriss27:56

       ... sell low. So what, what p- what is, in this, what, uh, what, what we're talking about when we talk about asset allocation, among other things, just to sort of, uh, try to, tr- try to distill it for people as a concept, is that you have uncorrelated or inversely correlated buckets so that if, if, if one portion of your investments goes down because of inflation, deflation, fill in the blank, there are others that go up which mitigate your risk.

   18. TRTony Robbins28:21

       That's correct.

   19. TFTim Ferriss28:22

       And what you notice, and I live in Silicon Valley. I'm very involved with tech. That's, that's sort of been my sandbox for the last, uh, you know, close to 10 years, I guess. And what you notice about the ve- Okay, 95%. So talk about venture capital ha- is very similar to mutual funds. So it's the vast majority are horrible. As a, as a class, they're terrible.

   20. TRTony Robbins28:45

       Yeah.

   21. TFTim Ferriss28:46

       However, if you, if you pick the unicorns, and you use the same term, there are-

   22. TRTony Robbins28:50

       Reid, Reid Hoffman or-

   23. TFTim Ferriss28:51

       Yeah, yeah. There are a handful who are very, very consistent. And so what I've tried to do, just like you did with, uh, a lot of these hedge fund managers, is, uh, look at what separates them. And what separates them is you have the vast majority of tech investors who think, uh, high risk, high return. I've gotta swing for the fences. I'll be okay as long as a third of my startups lose money, a third break even, and a third make money. Does-

   24. TRTony Robbins29:16

       Wouldn't it be li- nice if life worked that way? [laughs]

   25. TFTim Ferriss29:18

       Yeah. Doesn't, doesn't work that way.

   26. TRTony Robbins29:20

       No, it does not.

   27. TFTim Ferriss29:20

       Whereas, whereas the, whereas the guys who are really good realize that there's a power law distribution. One or two of their investments are going to make up for all of the losses. And the, the, the very top of the top, even though they don't talk, they don't talk about it publicly, if they have a lot of their personal money at play, have thought a lot about asset allocation.

   28. TRTony Robbins29:39

       That's right.

   29. TFTim Ferriss29:39

       So if they're heavily vested in tech, and it might have an IPO, blah, blah, blah, they have, uh, they have an entire basket of shorts on the NASDAQ-

   30. TRTony Robbins29:47

       Yes
8. 30:44 – 34:58

   Security vs. Growth Buckets and Real Risk Tolerance

   1. TRTony Robbins30:44

      It's just buckets. Some of my money's gonna go in a secure bucket.

   2. TFTim Ferriss30:47

      Mm-hmm.

   3. TRTony Robbins30:48

      That bucket is like a church steeple. I'm gonna... It's not going away. It's very secure type investments. Its upside is not gigantic in terms of speed. But you know what? It, the compounding process, if you give it enough time, those low returns are giant returns still, but you're not gonna lose. And then there's this bucket called, what most people call growth bucket, I call risk growth, 'cause it's really risk first.

   4. TFTim Ferriss31:09

      Yeah.

   5. TRTony Robbins31:10

      And on that, I'm taking bigger risks for potentially greater rewards. And now the question is: how do I balance these? Am I 60/40, 50/50, 80/20? And that's designed really by three things. Number one, what's your real risk tolerance, not what you think it is.

   6. TFTim Ferriss31:22

      Yeah.

   7. TRTony Robbins31:22

      Right.

   8. TFTim Ferriss31:22

      And they're never the same. [laughs]

   9. TRTony Robbins31:23

      They're never the same. Uh, you know, I do, I do these wealth mastery programs in, uh, through the years and t- I, invariably I'll do some crazy thing, like I'll say, "Everybody stand up, make change." They look at me. I'll go, "Make change," and they start reaching in their pockets and making change. And so somebody will pull out five bucks and 10 bucks and somebody will pull out $100, and they'll... Someone will come up, and they'll take it and give them five bucks, and they're like, you know, they'll, they, they don't know how to react. So this goes on for three or four minutes. The music's going on. I go, "Okay, stop," right? "Sit down." And then I go on like I'm talking about something else. And then, you know, invariably somebody's like, "Hey, wait a second. I want my, I want my $100 back." I say, "What are you talking about?" They say, "I want my $100 back. The game's over." I said, "When'd you, when did you think the game was over? Did you think the game had ever gone over?"

   10. TFTim Ferriss32:01

       [laughs]

   11. TRTony Robbins32:01

       Right? And, and who said it was your $100?

   12. TFTim Ferriss32:03

       Yeah.

   13. TRTony Robbins32:04

       Right? And it's like the, they, it takes a while, but fi- they finally get, you know, I'm stressed about $100. What do you think is gonna happen when you lose a million or half a million or 100,000 or 10 grand? I mean, your risk tolerance is not what you think it is.

   14. TFTim Ferriss32:15

       Yeah.

   15. TRTony Robbins32:15

       So when you find out what your risk tolerance is, and we got great ways to do that in the book, and then you figure out really how much time do you have. If you're younger, you got more time to make mistakes, and so you can take bigger risks. You know, you got timeline on your part, your support. And then another, next piece is how much is your cash flow?

   16. TFTim Ferriss32:29

       Yeah.

   17. TRTony Robbins32:29

       What's, what's gonna be the real flow? If you look at those three things, now you can decide how much goes in my secure bucket and how much goes in my growth. And if you don't make that decision, it's the most important investment decision of your life according to everybody I interviewed, like what percentage secure, what percentage growth and risk, then when things come up, you're always gonna go for the growth risk 'cause it looks so sexy and exciting. And I can't tell you how many people over the years have done this. They're telling me, "Why would I put money over here when I've got this real estate, and I'm making 120%?" I have a friend that built, uh, some of the first big condos in Vegas back in the boom time, and he, he actually went to my programs, sold the business. He had made $200 million, invested in these condos, started building the Panorama Towers and places of that nature, and he was up to, like, three-quarters of a billion. I kept saying to him, "Dude, take some of your growth money and put it in the secure bucket," right? "How many times have I told you this?" He goes, "Tony, I love you. I made $200 million because you, but now I'm, I, you know, I'm really... Like, what I touch goes to gold." I'm listening to his ego, and I'm going, "I love you, brother," but I said, "You know how many times we've had this conversation?" And then guess what happens in 2008? How much do you think he lost? He was worth three-quarters of a billion dollars. He'd grown that rapidly in those short years. What do you think happened to his net worth?

   18. TFTim Ferriss33:37

       Oh, I'm guessing it went down according to the Ray Dalio prediction. I'd say-

   19. TRTony Robbins33:40

       How about minus 400 million?

   20. TFTim Ferriss33:42

       Oh, that's, that's, that's-

   21. TRTony Robbins33:44

       He didn't just lose what he had. He lost everything and then beyond. So then he's trying to negotiate to survive.

   22. TFTim Ferriss33:49

       So he was le- he was, he was leveraged.

   23. TRTony Robbins33:49

       He was le- he was leveraged out, right? Wiped himself out. So most people don't put enough in the security bucket is the lesson, and a guy like Dalio provides you a strategy that's got great sustainability. But there are many approaches in the book. But you do have to decide how much is secure, how much is growth, and I show you how to do that in the book.

   24. TFTim Ferriss34:04

       And I would emphasize at least, uh, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts, Tony, but for me, it took me a long time to think, to realize what investing represents for me, and it's not maximizing return. It's maximizing quality of life.

   25. TRTony Robbins34:18

       Yes.

   26. TFTim Ferriss34:18

       And there's a big difference.

   27. TRTony Robbins34:19

       Yes.

   28. TFTim Ferriss34:20

       Uh, and they, they... Then for me at least, I've, I've, I have a very kind of barbell strategy where I have s- super, super sta- safe stuff and then the, the, the startup stuff. But I, I need to modify that. I want to modify that because it's not currently-

   29. TRTony Robbins34:34

       Yeah

   30. TFTim Ferriss34:34

       ... all seasons at all.
9. 34:58 – 37:35

   Becoming Financially Literate and Using Heuristics

   1. TFTim Ferriss34:58

      so it's, it's important to become literate, I think, with a lot of these basic concepts, which is, which is not difficult. Uh-

   2. TRTony Robbins35:04

      I, I wanna put one last thing about that. People need to remember that everybody's a financial trader, but most people are making a bad trade.

   3. TFTim Ferriss35:10

      Yeah.

   4. TRTony Robbins35:10

      'Cause they're trading time for money.

   5. TFTim Ferriss35:12

      Yep.

   6. TRTony Robbins35:12

      Worst trade of your life 'cause you can't get more time. We all know it. So what this book'll do, if you're willing to just give yourself a chapter a day for a month or go crazy on a weekend, you'll go from maybe not even knowing why these terms sound so complex to being juiced 'cause you'll be an insider. You will look at the world in a totally different way. You'll go, "That is the biggest rip-off on earth. That'll never happen to me. That is where I wanna go." And you'll make some decisions, and then it's not an everyday thing. Literally, you might do rebalancing once a year for 15 minutes.

   7. TFTim Ferriss35:41

      Yeah.

   8. TRTony Robbins35:41

      I mean, unless you're gonna be a trader every day, this shouldn't dominate your life. But you ha- when did you give yourself the initial education about one of the most important areas of your life? There's only a few areas that really impact the quality of your life, your body, your emotions, your relationships, your finances, your career, your business, the spiritual side of your life, man, how you use your time. About a half dozen or so, maybe seven areas that really affect you. But most people, major and minor things, they know so much more about [laughs] shit that doesn't matter.

   9. TFTim Ferriss36:07

      Yeah.

   10. TRTony Robbins36:07

       So I'm saying to people, give yourself the gift of just a short burst of time so that you can truly look at life and be good at this area. And if you want someone to do it for you, you can, but at least then you lead them.

   11. TFTim Ferriss36:19

       Yeah.

   12. TRTony Robbins36:19

       You're not being led by them, right?

   13. TFTim Ferriss36:21

       No, definitely. And I think that, uh, you know, just like one of the things that sort of changed my world in startup investing was, you know, any company you invest in should be able to return the fund, just as, like, a general, the amount of money that you're investing-

   14. TRTony Robbins36:33

       Yeah

   15. TFTim Ferriss36:33

       ... over X number of years. And, uh, just like the sort of $1 to $5-

   16. TRTony Robbins36:39

       Yeah

   17. TFTim Ferriss36:39

       ... principle with Tudor Jones. And there, there are a couple of pithy ... uh, heuristics, like rules of thumb, that I think will change how you view not just money or stocks, but the world in general, such as assume, in the, in the, the Dalio, uh, case, that, you know, your favorite area, your kind of pet investment bucket-

   18. TRTony Robbins37:00

       Yeah

   19. TFTim Ferriss37:00

       ... is going to decrease by at least 50% in the next, you know, X period of time.

   20. TRTony Robbins37:03

       50 to 70. 70 will get your attention.

   21. TFTim Ferriss37:04

       50 to 70, even better.

   22. TRTony Robbins37:05

       [laughs] 70 will get your attention a little more.

   23. TFTim Ferriss37:06

       Yeah, that'll get your attention. And, and plan accordingly.

   24. TRTony Robbins37:09

       Yeah.

   25. TFTim Ferriss37:09

       Right? And, uh, I, I think that, um, it's, yeah, it's been a very, very fun process to read this and also to connect with you over it. Uh, let me ask, if I could, 'cause I know, uh, you've got, you've got a lot planned, and, uh, I, I also wanna finish up the last few interviews [laughs] in the, uh, in the book, reading the ones that you did. Uh, I'm curious if there are any, any particular funny stories, or what was the funniest story or interaction you had while researching or writing this book that comes to mind?

10. 37:35 – 40:03

    Funny Moments, Hunger, and Systems

    1. TRTony Robbins37:35

       Well, I think you shared one of them already, I think, is, uh, the... It's funny now, it wasn't until funny in the moment, is walking to Carl Icahn's office, so excited, so prepared, ready to rip open, 'cause this guy, he's got the greatest returns of anybody out there, and very few people know that. Kiplinger did the first review that really showed all the numbers. I mean, oh, if you'd invested him in 1968, you'd have a 31% compounded return within his firm, versus at Buffett's firm, you'd have a 20% return.

    2. TFTim Ferriss38:00

       Yeah.

    3. TRTony Robbins38:00

       People think of Buffett as the ultimate guy. So you're like, I got these facts, figures, I'm excited. And to have him literally throwing my video crew out the door-

    4. TFTim Ferriss38:08

       [laughs]

    5. TRTony Robbins38:08

       ... and, and then telling me no audio, and I'm like, "How the hell am I gonna keep up with this guy, capture the no?" So that'd be one. A, a fun moment was introducing Carl Icahn to Jack Bogle. They didn't know each other, and they're fans of each other. So it's like I came from being an outsider to now introducing them. Um, but most of the time with these guys wasn't as much funny as it was fascinating.

    6. TFTim Ferriss38:28

       Yeah.

    7. TRTony Robbins38:28

       It was just seeing the level of the- they play the game. It's like with a great poker player, you know, they know the psychology, they know the numbers, they know the probability, and you just realize why most people are never gonna win, because, you know, they're not gonna win gold medals against these guys that are playing this game-

    8. TFTim Ferriss38:44

       Don't stand a chance

    9. TRTony Robbins38:44

       ... day and night, night and day, you know?

    10. TFTim Ferriss38:46

        Yeah.

    11. TRTony Robbins38:46

        So... And some of that isn't new to me, just because Paul's been my dearest friend for, you know, 21 years now. Um, but it's, it's fascinating to see that in every, in every industry and every sport, there are a few players that play at the highest level, and they have one thing in common above all else: hunger. It- but it's an unquenchable hunger. You have that hunger. I see that in you. That's why I'm a fan of your work. It's like you're gonna keep finding the answers, no matter what answers. You're gonna wanna know more. And a- every one of these people has that, and it's fun to be around them because there's energy in every one of these people. They have different styles, but there's an energy, and that energy is driven by that desire, that hunger to know more.

    12. TFTim Ferriss39:22

        And the, the other observation, uh, and that was reinforced by, by reading the book, was that they also, they have principles. They, they have-

    13. TRTony Robbins39:31

        Without a doubt

    14. TFTim Ferriss39:31

        ... operating systems-

    15. TRTony Robbins39:32

        Without a doubt

    16. TFTim Ferriss39:32

        ... that they use. And whether you are trying to lose weight, trying to quit smoking, trying to improve your, uh, investment returns, you can ensure against your lesser instincts by having a system-

    17. TRTony Robbins39:45

        That's right

    18. TFTim Ferriss39:45

        ... and putting systems in place so that when you have the impulses that are going to lead to your destruction or eating [laughs] the cupcake when you shouldn't eat it-

    19. TRTony Robbins39:54

        Yes

    20. TFTim Ferriss39:54

        ... that you can mitigate against that. And it's possible. You can set these things up in advance. Uh, I would love to, before we wrap up, just ask a couple of rapid-fire questions.

    21. TRTony Robbins40:02

        Sure, go for it.

11. 40:03 – 42:21

    Rapid-Fire Questions

    1. TFTim Ferriss40:03

       Okay. Uh, when you think of the word successful, who's the first person that comes to mind?

    2. TRTony Robbins40:09

       Gosh. I, I like Richard Branson. I don't know why that's the first thing popped in my head when you said that. Only because I think he lives so passionately. He lives life on his terms. There's no bullshit with him. Uh, he's having a good time. He's close to his family. Um, lives on an island like I do. [laughs]

    3. TFTim Ferriss40:25

       [laughs]

    4. TRTony Robbins40:25

       I guess I relate to... But he's a extra- an extraordinary leverage and very conscious man about society and what to do. His Elders program and things like that, he's very socially conscious, and yet still has a great time. So he'd be one of the first people I think of probably.

    5. TFTim Ferriss40:38

       Uh, what have you changed your mind about over the years? Any positions you've taken that you've, that you've reversed since?

    6. TRTony Robbins40:45

       Uh, you don't have to be perfect in everything you do, including not eating anything enjoyable. [laughs]

    7. TFTim Ferriss40:50

       [laughs]

    8. TRTony Robbins40:50

       That'd probably be a big one, my wife would tell you. Uh, gosh, you know, over the years, there's, you're always updating. I mean, I don't look at it as changing as much as updating and-

    9. TFTim Ferriss40:59

       Yeah

    10. TRTony Robbins40:59

        ... informing myself, you know? If you thought of it as changing, I think you'd find resistance within your own, uh, consciousness or your own identity, and, you know, identity plays-

    11. TFTim Ferriss41:06

        Yeah

    12. TRTony Robbins41:06

        ... such a strong wall, the need to be consistent with what you believe. And that's why the political system's so messed up. You know, somebody can actually grow, and they're seen as inconsistent.

    13. TFTim Ferriss41:14

        Yeah. Oh, it's a mess.

    14. TRTony Robbins41:15

        You know, it, it, it, it makes the political system not grow.

    15. TFTim Ferriss41:17

        Yeah.

    16. TRTony Robbins41:17

        It makes the system locked in place. Um, so I don't look, think there's... Anything that comes to mind just real directly, but I think it's, there's a constant upgrading, and sometimes it's those two mete- two millimeter upgrades that provide the biggest impact.

    17. TFTim Ferriss41:28

        Yeah. Uh, side note for folks, it's also, uh, common among the top venture capitalist investors. Marc Andreessen, who created the graphical web browser, uh, hi- one of his mottos for Andreessen Horowitz is, "Strong opinions weekly held." So he's, he's-

    18. TRTony Robbins41:42

        Yeah

    19. TFTim Ferriss41:42

        ... he's ready to be corrected-

    20. TRTony Robbins41:44

        Yes

    21. TFTim Ferriss41:44

        ... or update, as you mentioned.

    22. TRTony Robbins41:46

        Yeah.

    23. TFTim Ferriss41:46

        Uh, [clears throat] what would people be surprised to know about you?

    24. TRTony Robbins41:51

        Um, gosh. You should ask my wife that question. [laughs]

    25. TFTim Ferriss41:54

        [laughs]

    26. TRTony Robbins41:55

        Um, I, I don't know. Some people would not be surprised at all. People at my events would. I'm a, I'm a love bug. I'm that kind of guy that I can be brought to tears by seeing someone do the right thing, just... And yet I'm, you know, I'll run, I'll run through that wall, shake the building with 10,000 people in it. Um, I'm a softie really, truly underneath it all. That's what drives all this in me.

    27. TFTim Ferriss42:12

        Okay.

    28. TRTony Robbins42:12

        I love to see people lit up. I love to see people happy. I love to see people freed.

    29. TFTim Ferriss42:16

        So I'm gonna ask a, an unusual one, given that answer. Uh, what's the first face that comes to mind when you think

12. 42:21 – 50:44

    Confronting President Obama

    1. TFTim Ferriss42:21

       punchable? [laughs]

    2. TRTony Robbins42:23

       Punchable? [laughs] Oh my gosh. Well, I had an interesting meeting with President Obama. [laughs]

    3. TFTim Ferriss42:29

       [laughs]

    4. TRTony Robbins42:30

       Um, it was actually interesting. It was, it was, uh, I was invited by Marc Benioff- To, uh, come. It was for, I don't know, 15 of, you know, billionaires there in Silicon Valley. I was in S- in San Jose, and it was for the president, and it was before the, his second election, his re-election. And, uh, I voted for the president, you know, so I- I'm, been a fan of the president. But I was getting more and more frustrated by watching the style of politics, which was, you know, creating greater and greater division. And there seemed to me a great level of inaccuracy in the promises that are being made that very har- hard not to see. And at that time it was the whole thing, we're gonna raise taxes on the rich and that's gonna, you know, balance the budget. And, you know, I've done the numbers. I did a whole video on it. It shows you can kill every rich person in the United States and take all their money-

    5. TFTim Ferriss43:13

       Right

    6. TRTony Robbins43:13

       ... and take all the corporations and all the advertising from the Super Bowl. I mean, I do this whole long gig that came from some statistics another man put together for me, but I did it together, and you can't cover the budget for one year, and then what do you do next year, right? Um, and so I said to Mark, I said, "Listen, I- I support the president," um, but I said, "Honestly, I don't know. I can support the other side, but I don't know that I- I'm a guy to be there. I don't know that I'm a fan." And Mark... And I said, "Mark, you and I are so aligned on so much, but, you know, the way in which, you know, h- how Simpson-Bowles was this close and he let it pass, we had both sides willing to make some tough decisions, is beyond me. That just, the, it lacks the leadership that fundamentally the president of the United States, in my mind, has to have." And that's my judgment. I'm just a person. But it's like, I don't understand. W- Taking the easy route is not something that's gonna sustain or grow this economy long term. And, and I said, and, and using the political capital, even though I'm supportive of healthcare, using that healthcare where half the country is upset about it and pushing it down their throat, and trying to say it's gonna cost less money, I mean, it's just like there's certain things... So Mark says, "I agree with you. I agree with you." And Mark is the second largest fundraiser-

    7. TFTim Ferriss44:18

       [laughs]

    8. TRTony Robbins44:18

       ... for the president. So I said, "Well, then, how the hell do you raise all that money?" He goes, "Well, 'cause I feel stronger about him than the other guy."

    9. TFTim Ferriss44:24

       Yeah.

    10. TRTony Robbins44:24

        And he said, "And you and I are aligned with him on so many other things about, you know, the environment and, you know, you know, people's right to marriage regardless of their sexual preference." And I said, "Of course we are." So he said, "Come. Come and be there." I said, I said, "You know me. I'm totally respectful, but I'm honest." He goes, "Come." He says, "I'll sit you right next to the president," he said, "and we'll have a great conversation." [laughs] So I went to this, to this meeting, and it was crazy. I mean, I've worked with so many presidents over the years, but I had not been with Obama. And it's downtown San Jose. They, they locked everybody in their buildings. And literally, you know, it looked like one of those movies, you know, when everybody's died and there's nothing left but the buildings.

    11. TFTim Ferriss44:59

        [laughs]

    12. TRTony Robbins44:59

        It was, it was the wildest thing for several blocks. Took us up in this room. There's nobody else sitting. There's these 16 people, many of which you'd know from, you know, Silicon Valley. And, uh, and I listened, and the president came in, and it was really wonderful, and he shared, you know, uh, some comments and said, "I'm not here to give a speech. I'm here, you guys have built the biggest companies in the world." I'm thinking, "Not me. I don't fit that category." [laughs] And so I wasn't gonna say anything. And he said, "But I really want to hear from you guys." So Mark turns to him and says, "Well, are, are you ready for some, you know, real give and take, Mr. President?" He said, "Yeah." And he goes, "Okay. Who wants to go first?" And he points straight at me.

    13. TFTim Ferriss45:30

        [laughs]

    14. TRTony Robbins45:30

        [laughs] Right?

    15. TFTim Ferriss45:32

        That's what friends are for. [laughs]

    16. TRTony Robbins45:33

        [laughs] So I said, uh, "Mr. President," I said, I paused, I literally paused. I thought, "I shouldn't do this. I'm not here. They've all paid a quarter of a million bucks to be here." I actually had never done this before. I went 1001, 1000, trying to s- see if somebody else is gonna say something.

    17. TFTim Ferriss45:45

        [laughs]

    18. TRTony Robbins45:46

        1003. I finally said, "Okay." I said, "Well, Mr. President," I said, I, I said, "I really want you to know I voted for you. I know you're a man of tremendous integrity. I share the same values you do, I believe." But I said, "I'm really confused about two things. Number one, how you think you'll be able to have a, you know, a second four-year run and get anything done when you have taken the other side and demonized them to a point that they're never gonna work with you. And my second question, if I ever get one, would be-

    19. TFTim Ferriss46:15

        [laughs]

    20. TRTony Robbins46:16

        ... why didn't you support Simpson-Bowles?" [laughs] Right? I said, "It was right there. It needed to be done." And he, you know, he's long pause, and he said, "Well, those are fair questions." And he said, uh, he said, "First of all, I don't think I've ever demonized the other party, ever." And I, and I just sat there, and I watched him say it. I was like, are you kidding me? I'm not, I'm not a Republican, but, uh, come on.

    21. TFTim Ferriss46:35

        Yeah. [laughs]

    22. TRTony Robbins46:36

        Right? You know, both sides have demonized. Are you kidding? And he goes, "And they've been really unfair to me," and he went through this piece. And, and I said, "Mr. President, that's happened with every president-"

    23. TFTim Ferriss46:42

        Right

    24. TRTony Robbins46:42

        ... "you know, to be fair. You know, that's, that's what they both do. And it's gotten worse throughout the years, for sure." I said, "But what about Simpson-Bowles?" And he said, "Well, Tony," and he, you know, everybody does their research about who's in the room. The president knew. And he goes, "Well, Tony, you know, your friends, your hedge fund friends-"

    25. TFTim Ferriss46:55

        [laughs]

    26. TRTony Robbins46:55

        He said, "You know, they wouldn't like it if we got rid of, you know, the 15%, uh, you know, tax they give. And they would..." And he goes, "And, you know, most Americans wouldn't like it if they got rid of their mortgage deduction and, you know, and all those things." And he said, "I got a better plan." I said, "The better plan is you're gonna raise taxes back to Bush on the wealthy." And I said, "It takes $4 billion a day to run this country, and you know as well as I do the estimates of all that money in won't even cover three months of this government spending, so it won't solve anything. You're gonna have to raise taxes on everyone to cover this." I said, "So how do you deal with that?" And so he and I went back and forth.

    27. TFTim Ferriss47:30

        [laughs]

    28. TRTony Robbins47:30

        And to be fair, I'm telling my version of the story. I'm sure he gave a different version of the story. But there was a point where I was, I felt I'm losing rapport with every person in this room. [laughs] But I had to be honest. And, and finally at one point, the secret service agent came over and grabbed my wrist and he said, "I think that's enough." And the president's, uh... I wasn't, didn't raise my voice. The president's, um... You know, to honor him, he said, "No, Tony's created some creative tension here." And he said, "I'm not used to that in these rooms." But he said, "It's a fair question." I said, "You know, Mr. President, I just want to know because I voted for you, and there are a lot of people I know that voted for you. I don't know if they will again. I don't know if they need to. You're gonna win anyway."

    29. TFTim Ferriss48:03

        Yeah.

    30. TRTony Robbins48:03

        "But I'd really love to know what to tell them about how you're gonna govern with this level of division." And so at the end I just said, "Well, thank you for your time." And then everybody else got up and asked questions like, "Will you give a shout to the Jews?" And, you know, things like that.
13. 50:44 – 58:55

    Dark Moments, Experience, and Where to Find the Book

    1. TFTim Ferriss50:44

       I have my moments of doubt, dark moments. I don't know if you have those, those, those moments of doubt yourself anymore.

    2. TRTony Robbins50:50

       No, never.

    3. TFTim Ferriss50:51

       Never?

    4. TRTony Robbins50:51

       [laughs]

    5. TFTim Ferriss50:51

       But what, what-

    6. TRTony Robbins50:52

       I'm human

    7. TFTim Ferriss50:53

       ... what do you do, uh, when you have those, those, those, those dips, when you have those, those down moments and, uh, and doubts?

    8. TRTony Robbins51:01

       Those moments, those moments I've experienced primarily when I've found an inner conflict, uh, that's hard to resolve. Um, and that has been in the past when I'm traveling around the world. You know, I feel like I'm made to do what I do as a human being. I'm certainly not the only human being that can help people, but I'm, I'm able to help a lot of people, and I, and I feel it's a privilege and it's, um, it's a gift and, and something that's earned and something that is part of grace. And, um, and yet I... The greatest thing in my life, uh, outside of my work and my family is my wife. And ironically, [laughs] when I met her, she had extreme motion sickness since birth, and I spent almost a decade going everywhere 'cause she would throw up on... We never wanna be apart, and she would throw up on the flight up and on the flight down, and she literally lost, I don't know, it was 19 pounds, which she couldn't lose. She was a size zero. I took her to every type of physician. I took her to every kind of natural healer, acupuncturist. I took her to NASA to the expert there. Nobody's able to help her. I took her to the guy who works for the Top Gun pilots, 'cause if they lose their v- vestibular system, you know, they're dead. So he had this system, and he was the only one who could help her like maybe 10% of the time not throw up. But the process she did to just tighten her body created a constriction of lymph fluid and she developed a tumor.

    9. TFTim Ferriss52:13

       Oh.

    10. TRTony Robbins52:14

        And so the darkest days are, you know, what I think I'm made here to do and is hurting the person I love most or I've gotta be apart. And you know, as corny as it sounds, I just, I just believed that there was a larger lesson that I need to find a way to break through, and we finally did and she no long- she doesn't love motion, but she no longer throws up on any flight. And it was ironically an experience in India, which sounds so bogus to me, but I experienced it and she's never thrown up since that time. It's mind-boggling. It's this man who's, you know, he doesn't... He's not of any particular faith. It's called Oneness. And, uh, he does this form of meditation work where it basically primes your brain to a certain, uh, way of being and it, it balanced her body out, just amazing. Um, but the point of the matter is I went through all this pain, all this questioning, all this doubt, but I kept asking what's right, what's real, and I trusted my gut even when it was painful to trust my gut. And I found that that's probably the most useful thing. The other thing you gotta do is h- it sound, it sounds stupid, hydrate your ass off. Make sure you rest because in a lowered state of energy, you'll doubt everything.

    11. TFTim Ferriss53:19

        Hm.

    12. TRTony Robbins53:19

        And, and the worst thing can happen, if you are what I call energy rich, if you are physiologically at a, at a peak, you can slam anything against you and you'll know. Um, and so that's not to say you won't have those downs, but that's what I try to do, put my body back in the strongest place. That'll put your mind back there. Your heart is always there. And then ask what's right and live it. And you're gonna still make mistakes, and when you do, I think it's being forgiving yourself and learning from it and moving the hell on to what's next as quickly as you can so that that experience allows you to help other people. And for me, the worst events I've ever gone through in my life have always been the best events 'cause I've figured if I'm experiencing this, someone else is too, and if I figure it out, I can help millions of people. And that's given me sanity, so I'm not just dealing with my pain or bullshit or whatever the case may be, and that's, that's a big part of my life is ending suffering, which is impossible. But ending it in areas of people's life is possible. And you know, as like I always say, and it's corny, you know, you know, suffering is optional. Pain, pain, you know, that everybody's got pain in their life, but suffering is optional and I really believe I can help people get out of that. And more importantly than get out of the suffering is to give them an experience of more of the joy that's already inside them. And I live to see that light in their eyes and I'm gonna look forward to seeing it in you at some point at an event 'cause you'll have an experience of it and it won't be this discussion. Discussion's wonderful. Experience is 10 times better. I always tell people, you know, a belief is a poor substitute for an experience, right? You can believe all you want about what you think something is or investing is or what China's like, but go to China. Get an experience. Go to event. Then you'll know. And I'm a big guy on put people in the experience as quick as they can and let their spirit and their heart and their soul kind of take over, and that's what my life's about.

    13. TFTim Ferriss54:55

        It's a good mission. It's an amazing mission. Uh, where can people learn more about the book, more about you? Where would you like them to, to visit you?

    14. TRTony Robbins55:02

        Well, I'll, I'll give you the address, but they can go to tonyrobbins.com. That's the easiest way. And, uh, the book, again, is called Money: Master the Game: The 7 Simple Steps to Financial Freedom. And, uh, uh, what I'll do is I'll give you a site, and if people decide to do this and they go to Amazon, if they'll send me their receipt, I will give them something I did for people during the pre-publication period, which is I've made three, uh, videos that are kind of a fast track. So if somebody's going like, "600 pages seems like a lot to me," well, here's... This'll get you going. Um, I think for a lot of people, the audio/video approach is a good approach to them, and then it'll take them deeper in the book. But I do want you to know that, um, most people, I don't know if you're experienced with this, most people who read the book are entertained because it isn't just like some heavy factual piece. It's take, it takes you on a journey, and it's, uh, a journey through the financial world, which is wild, weird, crazy stuff happening. It's a journey into the lives of people that started with nothing, that are the wealthiest people in the world, and how they did it. And it's your own journey about where you're gonna take yourself from this point on, and how you want to live that life and, and the experiences that you wanna not only have for yourself, but what you really wanna give. And, and that's the greatest thing. I, I, I look back and you think about money, money is nothing but a tool that you either use for a life of service and a life... increase the quality of life for yourself or the people you love, or it's used on you as a weapon. And I'm big on saying time for it to no longer be a weapon used against you, and the only way to do that is educate yourself, and you can do it in a way that's really fun, and that's what this is.

    15. TFTim Ferriss56:27

        Oh, absolutely. So guys, check out the book. Check out Tony. Uh, Tony, you've had a huge impact on my life. And just to [laughs] the, the entertainment aspect of the book, uh, I have tons of books sent to me, I mean, dozens a week, as I'm sure you do. Huge stack. Uh, a lot of the questions that I asked did not require me to read the book.

    16. TRTony Robbins56:44

        Yes.

    17. TFTim Ferriss56:44

        And I ended up pushing off [laughs] probably a half dozen important projects of mine because I got pulled into the book. And I remember I emailed you-

    18. TRTony Robbins56:52

        Yes

    19. TFTim Ferriss56:52

        ... and I said, "You know, it's been 20 years."

    20. TRTony Robbins56:54

        [laughs]

    21. TFTim Ferriss56:54

        "You still have it. Hot damn." Like, I... That feeling, the sort of, uh, the Tony Robbins response that I had reading your material back in high school. And I remember you emailed me, you're like, "High school? How old are you?"

    22. TRTony Robbins57:05

        [laughs]

    23. TFTim Ferriss57:07

        Uh, it's, it's a really fascinating read, and I know some of you listening are my friends who are deep in the world of finance. You will find things, uh, in... whether it's in the interviews at the back, the profiles of the, uh, you know, the top performers over the last several decades or within. It's, it's a really fascinating romp with lots of good stories. So Tony, thank you so much for taking the time.

    24. TRTony Robbins57:26

        Thanks for coming down. Great to meet you in person finally.

    25. TFTim Ferriss57:28

        Definitely. Hope it's not the last.

    26. TRTony Robbins57:29

        [laughs] It won't be, brother.

    27. TFTim Ferriss57:30

        Thanks.

    28. TRTony Robbins57:31

        Thank you. [upbeat music]

    29. TFTim Ferriss57:34

        Thank you for supporting the sponsors of this show. I've used them, I like them, and I think you will too. 99designs.com/tim. It's the world's largest marketplace of graphic designers. You can see the projects that I've put up, the competitions that I've spearheaded, including the book cover of The 4-Hour Body, and you can also get a $99 upgrade for free. So check it out at 99designs.com/tim. Of course, you can subscribe to this show on iTunes. You can also find every other episode in the show notes, links from this episode at fourhourblog.com. That's F-O-U-R-H-O-U-R-B-L-O-G.com, and just click on Podcast. There's all sorts of other cool stuff, including my interactions with people like Warren Buffett, Mike Shinoda of Linkin Park. The list goes on and on and on. And I would love your feedback. Let me know what you thought of this show, who you'd like to hear on the show next, and any other thoughts, really. You can find me at Twitter at @TFerriss. That's Twitter.com/T-F-E-R-R-I-S-S, and on Facebook at Facebook.com/TimFerriss with two Rs and two Ss. Until next time, thank you for listening. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 58:55