EVERY SPOKEN WORD
145 min read · 29,476 words- 0:00 – 1:00
That Time We Almost Started with Aliens
- TNTrevor Noah
[funky music] Oh, wait. Let's talk about aliens, actually.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
That's good.
- TNTrevor Noah
Eugene is a huge fan of aliens.
- CACleo Abram
I am also.
- EUEugene
We love aliens.
- CACleo Abram
Me too.
- TNTrevor Noah
Have you, have you discovered anything like-
- EUEugene
Apparently we're close to making first contact-
- CACleo Abram
So-
- EUEugene
... in the next two years or so.
- TNTrevor Noah
You see, I love it. Now we're at the party. He's just said that.
- CACleo Abram
Tell me more.
- EUEugene
Yeah. So there's a guy called-
- TNTrevor Noah
Well, first, first, first have your drink and say it.
- EUEugene
So-
- TNTrevor Noah
I think it, it sets the scene.
- CACleo Abram
We're at a party.
- TNTrevor Noah
[beatboxing]
- EUEugene
Hey, uh, um-
- CACleo Abram
So, aliens. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[beatboxing]
- EUEugene
[laughs] So there's an extraterrestrial, uh, being that comes through a guy called Darryl Anka.
- TNTrevor Noah
[trilling] [laughs]
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- EUEugene
Don't you just hate it when your pessimistic friend is a DJ?
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[upbeat music] This is What Now? With Trevor Noah. [upbeat music]
- 1:00 – 3:00
ADR, Accents, and the Universal African Accent Problem
- TNTrevor Noah
You take your time. [laughs] You take your time. You just go ahead and take your time. Every moment, every second you need, you just take it. Do they have that on, on YouTube? I know they have subtitles and dubbing, but can you dub to other accents? That would be dope.
- EUEugene
That would be nice.
- TNTrevor Noah
We should just have the whole-
- CACleo Abram
I mean, they let you-
- TNTrevor Noah
... episode in a Southern accent.
- CACleo Abram
They ... I think you should do that for this episode.
- TNTrevor Noah
We really should.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
I think you should ADR it after.
- TNTrevor Noah
Just do the whole thing.
- CACleo Abram
Mm-hmm.
- EUEugene
What's ADR?
- CACleo Abram
Uh, I think it's the word for-
- EUEugene
I'm, I'm techno-challenged.
- CACleo Abram
I actually don't know what the-
- TNTrevor Noah
By the way
- CACleo Abram
... I, I... Oh, I did what I always hate, which is using an acronym when I don't know what it stands for. I think what ADR means is when they go back in a movie-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- CACleo Abram
... and make the same sounds again, uh, when they didn't catch it-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh
- CACleo Abram
... earlier.
- EUEugene
Okay.
- CACleo Abram
So like if-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- CACleo Abram
... I don't know. You've acted in movies.
- TNTrevor Noah
No, that, that is ADR.
- CACleo Abram
Is that right?
- EUEugene
Additional dialogue recording.
- TNTrevor Noah
Ha! Additional dialogue recording. But they should have a name for it when it's over the other one, 'cause not additional. This is the same dialogue recording.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah, yeah. Just do it again.
- 3:00 – 6:00
When Views Have Consequences (And You Have to Actually Think About It)
- TNTrevor Noah
... It's a very, it's a very specific kind of accent.
- EUEugene
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
I don't even know how to do it.
- EUEugene
Exactly.
- TNTrevor Noah
Because it's nowhere.
- EUEugene
You shouldn't know.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's nowhere.
- EUEugene
'Cause if you did know.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
Then you can't do Howie.
- EUEugene
[外国语]
- TNTrevor Noah
Uh, [laughs] no, but do you, do you, um ... You know, it's, it, we, we, we were talking about this just before we started recording. And I wonder if you have to think about this, you know. As, as your platform's grown, as you've gotten bigger, do you have to think about balancing out, like, what you'll do for a view, and then what the views will do for the people who are viewing the thing?
- EUEugene
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
Tell me more about what you mean by that.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, so what we were chatting about earlier is, let's say I'm interviewing somebody on the show, right? We're hanging out here. It's me, Eugene, the person, who- whoever it is. Let's say they're a politician. And then you go ... Like, for instance, we had Zoran on, on, on the show. And then someone's like, "Oh, it'd be cool if you did a thing on Trump and whatever." And then I go, it could be cool, and it could be crazy, and you could do whatever you want.
- CACleo Abram
Hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right? So I could go off and, and do, like ... I, let's say I do, like, a mini roast of Trump or whatever. Here I am with Zoran.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
So it's like Zoran Mamdani, the mayor of New York. And then you're like, "Oh, let's play out what happens, Zoran." He's like, "Welcome, Zoran. Nice to see you in my office, Mamdani. Nice to see you, Mamdani." Now, if he joins in-
- EUEugene
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... and Trump sees that, and Trump gets pissed off, and then goes, "Oh, I'm gonna cut funding for New York," was it worth it?
- EUEugene
Mm.
- CACleo Abram
No.
- TNTrevor Noah
That's my point.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
So now ... But I wouldn't have to think that if we only had, like, 50 viewers. Then you just do whatever you want.
- EUEugene
Yes.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah, but you wouldn't feel good about it, even if you had 50.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, I would definitely feel good about it. Do you ... How, how can you not feel good about an act out?
- CACleo Abram
It ... Well, I'll just say about my show, I've constructed the whole thing so that it prevents that question, because the premise of the show is I'm gonna genuinely explain something to you-
- 6:00 – 8:00
Cleo's Three Rules for Making Content That Doesn't Suck
- CACleo Abram
and what doesn't.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
And it, it's a pressure that counterweights a lot of the other pressures on journalists and on-
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay
- CACleo Abram
... news.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay. Got it.
- CACleo Abram
To be-
- TNTrevor Noah
Got it. Got it
- CACleo Abram
... clickbait-y. To be-
- TNTrevor Noah
Right
- CACleo Abram
... pessimistic.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
To be, um-
- TNTrevor Noah
Un- unscrupulous, insensitive.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
All of those things, na?
- CACleo Abram
Yeah. Yeah, it's a, it's a counterweight.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
And I'm not saying, like, it's, it's perfect every time. We, we also think a lot about how do I do those three things in a way that millions of people wanna watch. So there's absolutely, like, a, a storytelling element to it. But it strips away a lot of the things that I didn't like as a journalist, that I don't wanna watch, that aren't, in the end, helpful for me to actually understand something, make me feel optimistic about the future that I can participate in building-
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm
- CACleo Abram
... um, and that use the fact that it's a video, right? Like, watching a video requires a lot of your time and attention. It requires your eyes as in addition to your ears. And so I think a lot about how do I earn that from my audience. So anyway, if those, if I'm doing those three things-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- CACleo Abram
... then it should be on the show. And in those moments where, like, you can feel the pressure to, to do something else because you think it'll spike in viewership.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm. I mean, everyone talks about that. Everyone who's been involved in YouTube, every ... 'Cause I'm, it-
- CACleo Abram
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... because I think there's a, there's a specific, um, there's a delineation between the types of content you make when you w- when you're making it for, like, what we call, like, mainstream media, let's say.
- CACleo Abram
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Your bosses have already confirmed it, it goes out, it's commissioned, it gets put on TV or in the movies, and then it's done. YouTube, you are the boss. You're making, you're making the decisions, you're putting it out there, you're doing your thing. So in essence, the only driving force behind whether it does or doesn't go out is you.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right? But that means that people ... I remember talking to, uh, is it Jake Paul or Logan Paul? I always forget which brother. I think it was Jake. I think it was Jake. But it was ... And, um, w- w- was interviewing him, and we were talking about his life and his show, and then he talked about how the, the click cycle got him.
- 8:00 – 10:00
The Jake Paul Click Cycle and How It Ruins Everything
- CACleo Abram
Hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
He did one thing.
- CACleo Abram
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
He, he, he fell somewhere, he broke something, and the people are like, "More of that. More of that." And they didn't say it verbally, but people loved it.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
And then him and his team were like, "You gotta do it again." And then you're jumping off the top of your stairs, the banister in your, in your house. And people are like, "More, more."
- CACleo Abram
You're going higher and higher.
- TNTrevor Noah
And the next thing you know you're in, like, you know, a forest, a suicide forest in Japan. And you are looking at yourself going, "How did I get here?"
- CACleo Abram
Hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
But stand-up has a lot of those elements, right?
- CACleo Abram
Oh, yeah. Definitely.
- TNTrevor Noah
St- stand-up, when we first started, was just us trying to see how far we can push the envelope.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah, you're not wrong.
- TNTrevor Noah
And then you get one TV gig, and now you have to be careful. You get one endorsement, now they're like, "Also, are you gonna say that for real, real, real?"
- CACleo Abram
Yeah, it, it, but it's almost the, the other way around funny enough with stand-up now that you mention it.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- CACleo Abram
It's almost like stand-up, they, they almost calm you down in a way. 'Cause as stand-ups what we're trying ... You see, like, your rules.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
I, I don't know about all stand-ups, but, like, I, I can say-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- CACleo Abram
... for myself and this gentleman s- seated across from me.
- TNTrevor Noah
Again, gentlemen.
- CACleo Abram
This fine squire right here across from me.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
I would say it's like if we think of our rules, you go, "Do we find it interesting?"
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- CACleo Abram
"Do we think it's funny?"
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- CACleo Abram
Then that's it.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- 10:00 – 14:00
Wait, Why DO You Care? (Getting Into Cleo's Origin Story)
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
So my goal, I'm not an engineer, I'm not a scientist. My goal is to present who's working on hard things and how are they doing it and what could it potentially do and how could it go wrong and how could it go right.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
And make a optimistic explainer video that helps people see if you're watching it in the audience-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- CACleo Abram
... and maybe you are someone who could help, and I believe that everybody can in their own way.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- CACleo Abram
You can help participate in making that better somehow.
- TNTrevor Noah
I look at people like you-
- CACleo Abram
And that's the mission
- TNTrevor Noah
... with a mission and I go, "Why do you care?"
- CACleo Abram
Well, now we could get into all kinds of, you know, my, the way that I grew up and, and why I wanna do this work. Um-
- TNTrevor Noah
Then let's do it.
- CACleo Abram
Let's do it. I'm happy to.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
Let's do it. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
We're not-
- CACleo Abram
Why do you care?
- TNTrevor Noah
I like how you said it's like we don't have an option. You're like, "No, well, then I gotta get into it." It's like-
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
...
- CACleo Abram
"Let's do it"
- TNTrevor Noah
... you've come to the right place.
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Why did you get it?
- CACleo Abram
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
'Cause I remember when I ... So I'll, I'll give you a bit of context. When I first-
- CACleo Abram
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... came across your work, I had just started on The Daily Show. So, um, I joined The Daily Show in 2015, right, when Jon Stewart was still around. And so I was just a, a correspondent. Jon would phone me, be like, "Come and do this funny thing." I would be like, "Yeah." And then we'd leave. And then, you know what I mean?
- CACleo Abram
Mm-hmm.
- 14:00 – 17:00
How Death Penalty Cases Taught Someone to Explain Things Simply
- TNTrevor Noah
meet you at this point? What, what, what happened in your life that made you this person?
- CACleo Abram
So I was, if we rewind all the way back, I was a kid who, I grew up in Washington, DC, and my parents were both lawyers. And my mom was working for Congress, and my dad was a litigator, and he did a lot of death penalty cases. And we would talk about these things. We would talk about my homework, and we would talk about their work at the dinner table, and I, b- both of my parents were the kind of people where if I gave them something that I'd written, they would, like, cross out the lines really brutally and say, like, "There's a simpler way to say this." Like, you can always say it in a simpler way that people can better understand.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hm. Wow.
- CACleo Abram
And my dad, in these, these cases that he would work on, I really saw as a young kid how if you can explain something complicated in a way that 12 normal people can understand, you can actually save someone's life, like in a real way. Like, that's what he was demonstrating when I was a kid. And I guess that lesson stuck with me. It's hard, sometimes it's easier now to draw lines b- b- from, you know-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, yeah
- CACleo Abram
... what you did.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah.
- CACleo Abram
Like, now I see how that's connected. At the time, like, it was just a, a thing that I knew. And I grew up, and I go to college, and I graduate, and I begin working at Vox, V-O-X, and Vox at the time was doing explainer journalism, which I loved. Um, and I'll shorten the story somewhat, but-
- TNTrevor Noah
No, no, no
- EUEugene
No, we don't have to
- TNTrevor Noah
... there's no rush.
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
There's no rush here.
- CACleo Abram
Great.
- EUEugene
Please.
- TNTrevor Noah
We were fully in.
- CACleo Abram
Great.
- TNTrevor Noah
Y- you only need to start... W- Eugene does the yawn, then we-
- CACleo Abram
I'll look for it.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's a very special-
- EUEugene
About four hours in
- TNTrevor Noah
... it's a very special type of yawn that Eugene has. It's fake, but it works well on people.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
I'll, I'll show you an example now. I'm, I'm gonna tell you about my morning-
- CACleo Abram
Yeah, what's the cue? [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
... and then I'll show you-
- CACleo Abram
How do you do that?
- TNTrevor Noah
... I'll show you how Eugene just gently lets you know that it's time to move on.
- EUEugene
Oh, great. [laughs]
- 17:00 – 21:00
That 1903 Article That Said Planes Would Never Work
- CACleo Abram
and I was really unhappy with it. I was really frustrated.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm.
- CACleo Abram
And I, I think to boil down the reason that I was frustrated was I felt like there was this knee-jerk pessimism-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm
- CACleo Abram
... in the news that I was consuming-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- CACleo Abram
... that was preventing me from understanding what was really happening in the world and also understanding how I could participate in making the world a better place.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- CACleo Abram
And I, in doing some research, I happened upon an article. Um, I was looking through The New York Times archive for reporting reasons, and I found an article from 1903, October 9, 1903, and it was called Flying Machines Which Do Not Fly. This is a r- like you can go into The New York Times-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- CACleo Abram
... artic- uh, archive and find this article. It talks about how we will basically never have planes. It talks about how-
- TNTrevor Noah
When is this?
- CACleo Abram
This is 1903.
- TNTrevor Noah
1903. Mm-hmm. We will never have planes.
- CACleo Abram
We will never have planes. They basically say, it, it boils down to if it took birds thousands of years to dev- to develop evolutionarily the ability to fly-
- TNTrevor Noah
Wow, I love this
- CACleo Abram
... it'll take humans millions of years. And it ends, my favorite line in this piece, I still remember it, is something like, um-
- TNTrevor Noah
Good luck. [laughs]
- CACleo Abram
It basically is. It basically is like, it basically is like, "The effort might be employed more profitably" or something. It was 1903. They were writing-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- CACleo Abram
That's-
- TNTrevor Noah
That's beautiful.
- CACleo Abram
And, um-
- TNTrevor Noah
Hm
- CACleo Abram
... and s- so basically they were saying like, "Do other things. This will never work."
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. Effort might be employed profitably elsewhere.
- CACleo Abram
More profitably elsewhere.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- CACleo Abram
October 9, 1903. December 17, 1903, two months later was when the Wright brothers took their first assisted flight.
- TNTrevor Noah
No way.
- 21:00 – 24:00
Pessimism Plus Helplessness: A Terrible Recipe
- CACleo Abram
It's like, if the world is just getting worse-
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm
- CACleo Abram
... and I can't do anything about it, and I'm not seeing stories about people that are helping make it better, and I'm not imagining technologies like quantum computers, for example. I'm only imagining the ways in which they're gonna be a security problem and not the ways in which they're gonna help develop new medicines and new materials-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- CACleo Abram
... then I ... Like, why do I, why should I try?
- TNTrevor Noah
It-
- CACleo Abram
Why shouldn't I just be very self-interested and, like-
- TNTrevor Noah
So pessimism coupled with helplessness always-
- CACleo Abram
Yes
- TNTrevor Noah
... goes well together. Yeah.
- CACleo Abram
That's a much more succinct way to put it. Yeah. Exactly.
- TNTrevor Noah
That's what that said.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah. Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
You just scratched out the thing and you just went like-
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Bam. Pessimism combined with helplessness.
- CACleo Abram
Is bad.
- TNTrevor Noah
Go do your homework.
- CACleo Abram
And we're trying to do the opposite. Yeah.
- EUEugene
You know, I, I, I often find that, um, a healthy amount of pessimism is a good catalyst for people to act.
- CACleo Abram
Hmm. Interesting. Yeah, yeah.
- EUEugene
So you've oft- you've, you've often heard people who are very successful talking about the teacher that told them they'll never amount to anything.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- CACleo Abram
Mm-hmm.
- EUEugene
Then we have that conversation in hindsight of them being successful and the teacher seemingly being pessimistic and, and negative. But-
- CACleo Abram
Yeah, they were reacting to it.
- EUEugene
Exactly.
- CACleo Abram
But they had to have the optimism, right?
- EUEugene
Yes.
- CACleo Abram
Like, they had to, like, push off against it somehow.
- 24:00 – 28:00
How AI Became Less Scary in Africa (Eugene's Theory)
- TNTrevor Noah
I, I don't know if you've, if you've seen any of the, um, any of the polls that people have conducted around AI.
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right? When they ask the general public, "What do you think of AI?" And not, not, not, like, how it's being applied now, just AI as a concept.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
The sentiment is generally negative. Like, you go, "W- would you trust machines? Would you trust an all-powerful AI? Do you think it would be good for humanity?" Without fail, a majority of the population says, "No, it won't be good for us. It's gonna kill us. It's gonna take over. It's gonna ..." Do you know what I mean?
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's also interesting that most of those people have had their views shaped by The images of AI that they, they had growing up. So they watched Terminator.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah.
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
They were watching Star Wars. They were watching ... So they go like, "Oh, no. There's only one path that technology can take."
- EUEugene
Yes. It only goes this way.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, it, it can only go this way, and it can kill you.
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
An interesting poll that I saw the other day, and I, I was shocked by this, is people in Africa generally have a more positive attitude towards artificial general intelligence-
- CACleo Abram
Huh.
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... than people in the Western world.
- EUEugene
Yeah, 'cause people in Africa had to deal with racism for a long time. You see you, my man.
- TNTrevor Noah
And that was man-made intelligence.
- EUEugene
You see you, my man.
- TNTrevor Noah
So if you try artificial.
- EUEugene
Aha.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- EUEugene
Aha.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- EUEugene
But I thi- I-
- TNTrevor Noah
Eugene is the other half of my brain.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
You know, when people are like, "Your left brain, right brain," I'm like, "Eugene." [laughs]
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- 28:00 – 34:00
Being the Proxy for the Audience (And Not Pretending You're an Expert)
- CACleo Abram
visual storyteller.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- CACleo Abram
But I am not an expert in anything that I'm talking about.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
And so that requires me to come in by understanding, like, I'm the secondary character. The topic is the primary character.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, damn.
- CACleo Abram
My goal ... Like, why learn from me about quantum computers? You could learn from a quantum physicist on YouTube.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh.
- CACleo Abram
Like, why am I there? The reason I'm there is so that I'm a proxy for the audience. I'm, like, having fun with it, like you might have. I'm asking the questions that you might ask. I'm, I'm there to recontextualize what the expert is saying, to kind of, like, translate for them a little bit. Like, that's the magic of what we do. Because the, the problem with that first bucket that we talked about, the, the feeling of like, oh, pessimism ends the conversation.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- CACleo Abram
Explainers that are too complicated, like, they're just not ... They don't bring people in. The problem with that is you end up at, in a place where I think, unfortunately, despite the fact that Huge is growing really quickly, like we're-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- CACleo Abram
... we're ve- we're small compared to, you know, mainstream media. The, um, the place that we're in is one where, like, most people hear about the future when it is, has largely been set up by a smaller number of people. And my belief-
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm
- CACleo Abram
... is that if you bring people more into the earlier parts of the conversation-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- CACleo Abram
... if you say, like-
- TNTrevor Noah
Definitely
- CACleo Abram
... "We're, we're gonna need to learn about quantum computers now," though you're, you know, not actually interacting with them anytime soon, m- more people at the beginning of that process is a good thing.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- CACleo Abram
More people, to your point about AI, more people are helping to build that system if you show them what it is at the beginning.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- CACleo Abram
Versus saying, "Oh, it won't work. Oh, don't worry about it. Oh, this is not something that's gonna be accepted, not something that people are gonna want. It's not gonna be a ... You know, maybe it'll change the world, but just you should be scared of it."
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
That posture mean- means that you are less likely to participate in helping it go right. And so that's something I think a lot about. Like, how can I make it fun enough and good enough and entertaining enough so that you want to be a part of it earlier in the process? So, like, now when you go about your day, you understand something about what we've discovered about dinosaurs.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah.
- CACleo Abram
You understand something about CRISPR or quantum computers or supersonic planes. And like-
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm
- CACleo Abram
... maybe you won't work on those things tomorrow, but maybe there's some way in which that is part of your life and you at least know about these topics, and you're, you're having conversations that are interesting, and you're more a part of it than you would be otherwise. I believe that having more people understand complicated issues means that more people will participate in making sure that they go right. That's what I'm trying to do on my show.
- TNTrevor Noah
I like that you say that. I, um, I was in, uh, Washington State and I was at an event where- We're working with Microsoft on basically, like, getting AI into schools, like having kids learn, teachers learn, whatever. And they set up this, this program where the teachers are advising on it. So they're going, "This is what we actually need AI to do."
- 34:00 – 40:00
Why You Can't Just Vote on Your Phone (It's Worse Than You Think)
- CACleo Abram
difficult from an encryption perspective.
- TNTrevor Noah
Wait, same, why?
- CACleo Abram
Because voting is ... So, this was a, a little while ago, so I don't wanna butcher this too much. But the question I went into the story with-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- CACleo Abram
... is why don't we all just vote on our phones?
- TNTrevor Noah
I love this, love this question.
- CACleo Abram
Wouldn't it be, wouldn't it be great?
- TNTrevor Noah
It would be great.
- CACleo Abram
And wouldn't it make, uh, for a more participatory democracy?
- TNTrevor Noah
Sounds good to me.
- CACleo Abram
But I, I generally believe more people voting is good.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- CACleo Abram
Let's make it easier to vote.
- TNTrevor Noah
Love this.
- EUEugene
Bad idea.
- TNTrevor Noah
I'm in.
- CACleo Abram
And so I went and I talked-
- EUEugene
I'm, I'm not, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not a fan of-
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- EUEugene
... of total outright democracy.
- TNTrevor Noah
Eugene.
- CACleo Abram
Maybe we should start there.
- EUEugene
The-
- CACleo Abram
Well, it would still be a representative democracy
- EUEugene
... Eugene, the semi-dictator. I'm the-
- CACleo Abram
You would vote for the representatives.
- EUEugene
[laughs] I'm like, some people don't deserve a voice.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
Let's unpack that later. We should come back to that.
- 40:00 – 44:00
Digital Rain and Other Ways Foreign Powers Could Hack Elections
- CACleo Abram
making it rain in just the right places, and we would never notice."
- EUEugene
Cloud seeding?
- CACleo Abram
And I was like, d- like making it like-
- EUEugene
This is not cloud seeding.
- TNTrevor Noah
Wait, what do you mean?
- CACleo Abram
Like digitally making it rain. Like, like, um, making it, um, the lag time on the screen, they could make it a little bit longer, and that would mean that fewer people would vote, and you'd never notice. Or the-
- TNTrevor Noah
Wow
- CACleo Abram
... the login, maybe they would make it mess up a couple times.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, wow.
- CACleo Abram
And that would affect like older people in particular.
- EUEugene
It's like gen- yeah.
- CACleo Abram
It would just, it just a little, little things on the edges, and then you'd have an outcome that you didn't expect because someone-
- EUEugene
The politicians would have very little to do with the outcome.
- TNTrevor Noah
This is insane. That's, that's literally how I keep Eugene out of my house when I don't want him to visit me.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
I'll just like, I'll make the lock a little tighter.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
I'll jam the door a little bit more.
- CACleo Abram
And he never, and he never, he hasn't noticed.
- TNTrevor Noah
And then some days he just doesn't sh-
- CACleo Abram
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
I'll be like, "Yeah, come over anytime."
- EUEugene
I was there.
- TNTrevor Noah
And then he'll be there.
- EUEugene
I just didn't come in. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- EUEugene
But, uh, but you know what? It makes so much sense.
- 44:00 – 47:00
When Your Knowledge Makes You Both Fun AND Annoying at Parties
- TNTrevor Noah
you do it.
- EUEugene
Still have two months to complain about you.
- TNTrevor Noah
I feel like this got personal. [upbeat music] You know what I just realized? You must be both the most fun and irritating person at a party.
- EUEugene
[laughs] That's why she comes in early and le- uh, comes in early-
- TNTrevor Noah
Leaves
- EUEugene
... and leaves early.
- TNTrevor Noah
Leaves early.
- CACleo Abram
That's exactly what it is. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
No, no. You know why? 'Cause this is what I-
- CACleo Abram
Let's-
- TNTrevor Noah
This is what I was thinking
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
Go to a party. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
People love, people love speaking to other people who know things.
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
They love it.
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Until those people actually know things.
- EUEugene
Hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
That's what I've learned.
- EUEugene
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
No, but I don't know anything.
- TNTrevor Noah
No, no, no, but you do.
- EUEugene
No, no, no. You lie.
- TNTrevor Noah
You do. 'Cause let's say we were at a party now. We're all standing around with our drinks, right? And we're all having this conversation.
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
We're all, "Oh, yeah, yeah. So, so how do you know Eugene? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Yeah." Then I'm like, "You know, uh, the, the election, I think they should vote. You... Oh, you saw in Canada they're gonna, they're gonna do the digital voting." Then you go like, "Oh, yeah. Actually, they did, they did a thing on the..." Then we're like, "No, but the thing..." And then you, "Encryption, encryption, encryption, encryption, encryption. Facts, facts, facts, facts, facts, data, experts spoken to, et cetera."
- EUEugene
Hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And then someone would be like, "I'm gonna go, um, I'm gonna go get a-
- EUEugene
Look for this next.
- 47:00 – 53:00
Eugene Explains Bashar and Why We're Making First Contact in Two Years
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs] Oh. Oh, wow. Oh, okay.
- EUEugene
I think I encouraged him to start mixing.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, wow. [laughs] Now look at me. Oh, wow. [laughs]
- EUEugene
So there's this being that comes through him. It, it's been doing this for the last 20, 30 years. It's called Bashar. So Bashar, a couple of years ago, predicted-
- TNTrevor Noah
Are you ready for a Eugene explainer by the way?
- CACleo Abram
Wait, I'm sorry. Are we talking about, like-
- EUEugene
Darryl Anka
- CACleo Abram
... the real worlds or-
- EUEugene
He channels Bashar.
- CACleo Abram
[laughs] Are we talking about-
- EUEugene
He's a feminist. [laughs] Guys, am I the only one who knows about Bashar and Spirit Box at the same time?
- TNTrevor Noah
So explain there, Eugene, please.
- EUEugene
Okay. So-
- TNTrevor Noah
This is, this is one of Eugene's favorite YouTube channels.
- EUEugene
Yes. So-
- CACleo Abram
Is this like a, like-
- EUEugene
Spirit Box and Bashar are two different things.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- EUEugene
But we'll go into Spirit Box later.
- CACleo Abram
And are they ... Is this like-
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
I'll ask, I'll ask this the way that my five-year-old niece would ask this.
- EUEugene
Yeah.
- CACleo Abram
Like, is this the pretend world, or is this the real world?
- EUEugene
Real, real world.
- CACleo Abram
Okay.
- EUEugene
But with some level of pretending.
- TNTrevor Noah
I'm, I'm gonna pull this up in the meantim- while he describes it, then I'm gonna play it for you.
- 53:00 – 56:00
The CIA Agent Who Said Conspiracy Theorists Are Sometimes Right
- CACleo Abram
what is the core interest here? Like, so for example-
- EUEugene
Mm
- CACleo Abram
... I, um, I love the idea that I might be alive when we make first contact.
- EUEugene
Mm.
- CACleo Abram
Like, the idea that there are aliens out there, especially intelligent aliens, is-
- EUEugene
I'm taking supplements for that reason.
- CACleo Abram
[laughs] You wanna be alive for longer, to be-
- EUEugene
Not for my daughter to graduate university
- CACleo Abram
... to see, to see when we make ... Yeah. Totally. Or even, I mean, I would be-
- EUEugene
Lion's mane, I'm in
- CACleo Abram
... I would be excited about, like, bacteria-
- EUEugene
Trevor
- CACleo Abram
... on another planet.
- EUEugene
[laughs] I'm sorry. Just, sorry.
- TNTrevor Noah
I'm, I'm so sorry.
- EUEugene
I'm so sorry.
- TNTrevor Noah
Cleo, I'm, I'm really sorry.
- EUEugene
This guy just said ... [laughs] Wait, I'm sorry. This man just said, "That's what I'm taking," 'cause now I pictured the aliens coming down to Earth, making first contact with you specifically.
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- EUEugene
Going back to the mothership. And then they go like, "Have you met them?" It's like, "Yes, I've made contact. Full of magnesium-
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- EUEugene
... high, high levels of lion's mane mushrooms."
- TNTrevor Noah
"Is this all of?" "Yes, I think they are 50% mushroom-
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
... and 50% human." "Are you sure?" "I'm pretty sure. I, I scanned him. I'm pretty sure." [laughs]
- EUEugene
And why is his pee orange?
- TNTrevor Noah
"He had-
- EUEugene
Leave that
- TNTrevor Noah
... ash, ashwagandha."
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- 56:00 – 1:00:00
What Would Actually Happen If We Found Aliens?
- CACleo Abram
Like, what would the realistic scenarios be? And then you create a sort of ... I'm really in- into the idea right now of mixing science fiction with the explainer stories that we're doing.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- CACleo Abram
Because I do think that science fiction, if you are very clear, again with the voicing with Mark Rober-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes
- CACleo Abram
... if you're very clear about what's fiction and what's fact, you can play out a situation. An asteroid is coming for Earth. Okay, now what are the real, what is the real science and technology that we would use in that situation?
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm.
- CACleo Abram
So in this case, okay, imagine the realistic scenarios in which we might actually encounter life in, off Earth. What would happen next? What would we do if we encountered some, you know, light? How would we verify that? Would we send a probe? It's gonna take 100 years to get there if it's 100 li- it's gonna take much, much more, more than that, actually.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
- CACleo Abram
Um, how would we verify that? And so you, you play this out and you, you accept what people find interesting and what the seed is, and then you try and show them the science and the technology that you're convinced is real through the scientific method, but that gets at this, this thing that they are excited about. So another example is, um-
- TNTrevor Noah
It's the same as the 1902 article.
- CACleo Abram
Exactly.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah, yeah. You try and, you try and do that in, in an optimistic way so people can see, like, okay, if the plane were to fly, what would that mean? Okay, if we were to find aliens, what would that, what would that look like? What is the real science and tech there? Same thing ... I guess what I'm doing is sort of sci-fi every time.
- TNTrevor Noah
You are the 1902 first article.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah. I'm, I'm-
- TNTrevor Noah
It was 1903 or 1902?
- CACleo Abram
1903 for the-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, 1903
- CACleo Abram
... for the ... Yeah. For Mars was-
- TNTrevor Noah
The Wright brothers was 1903?
- CACleo Abram
Pretty sure, yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay, 1903. Yeah.
- CACleo Abram
December, December something.
- TNTrevor Noah
No, no, I'm s- I don't know. Yeah, yeah. I, I j- I'm just, I'm just making sure I remember it correctly. Yeah, 1903 article about the-
- CACleo Abram
And so you can do that over and over again with all of these different, these different interests. I don't even want to call them conspiracy theories. It's just like-
- TNTrevor Noah
You know-
- CACleo Abram
... okay, you're interested in CERN. You're interested in the fact that we're smashing particles together.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
Let me tell you the real science and tech.
- TNTrevor Noah
Did you just say ... Oh. No, can I tell you, listen.
- 1:00:00 – 1:08:00
The Curling Stone Mystery That's Baffled Physicists for 100 Years
- TNTrevor Noah
world now for the most part where people go pro, anti, fight.
- CACleo Abram
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
How can you not? How can you? And that's it, it's as simple as that. And there's very few people who, who will take a moment to go, "Well, somebody who is anti-vaccine has actually spent a lot of time on their own Googling and reading."
- CACleo Abram
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And that's almost why they've become anti-vaccine-
- CACleo Abram
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... is because they've gone out of their way to consume copious amounts of information-
- CACleo Abram
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... that have led them down a certain path. Now, whether the information is valid or not is a separate discussion, but it means that they have a hunger and they have an interest in the topic that has now brought them to that place.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah. Can you, can you offer more research-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, can you offer anything? Oh, wow
- CACleo Abram
... that allows them to do that thing that they do-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- CACleo Abram
... in a, in a direction-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm
- CACleo Abram
... that i- that has more for them to do it too? There's more information over here.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- CACleo Abram
You could, you could be more excited about all of the many different research papers that are coming out every day. Like, here's, here's a place to start. Like, here's, here's some interesting information. And I also think, like-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm
- CACleo Abram
... the, the thing that gets me really excited is that the world is Very strange and very exciting and ver- and full of things to learn and to get excited about.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
And so I, I view my job as to create a, a menu of journalistically rigorous, genuinely beautiful, deep explainers that might excite someone to go down all of these different paths.
- TNTrevor Noah
Have any of them been wrong in any way?
- CACleo Abram
I mean, we issue corrections when we get things wrong.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, you do?
- CACleo Abram
There have been ... There haven't been any ma- major stories where the underlying point of the story has been wrong.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right. Right.
- CACleo Abram
And I, I ... We work really, really hard to make sure that that's not the case. If it ever is, we would do a big correction on that. So far, it hasn't happened. Um, but every once in a while, we'll d- we'll need to do a correction on a, on a fact. So you, you can ... Um, YouTube has a really great UX where you can put the time code and then a colon and put correction.
- TNTrevor Noah
UX is user-
- CACleo Abram
User experience
- 1:08:00 – 1:14:00
Trevor's KFC/KKK Joke That Almost Got Us Fired
- TNTrevor Noah
Thanks for the facts, facts guy. We were having so much fun here guessing.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
[laughs] They were gonna make me make up an island, so thank you.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, man. [laughs]
- CACleo Abram
Um, here's my point with this.
- TNTrevor Noah
The Island of Bashar, and then we would've put the correction. See?
- EUEugene
Too soon.
- TNTrevor Noah
It would've been perfect.
- EUEugene
Too soon.
- TNTrevor Noah
Sorry, Eugene. Sorry.
- EUEugene
Yeah, it's okay.
- CACleo Abram
My point is that curling is a sport where if you read the YouTube comments in most videos about curling, or if you look at the way that people cover curling, especially on television during the Olympics, they make a lot of fun of it.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm.
- CACleo Abram
They, they, they talk a lot about, like, how did this become an Olympic sport? Like, oh, you know, w- why are we ... Like, it's, it's sort of a, a joke.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- CACleo Abram
It becomes a, a joke. First, I think curling is amazing, and I think the curling athletes are amazing, so I, I think that shouldn't be the case in the first place.
- TNTrevor Noah
You call them athletes?
- CACleo Abram
Yeah, yeah. Oh, oh, I tried curling. At the curling Olympic trials, I tried it. It's insanely hard.
- TNTrevor Noah
Wait, what makes it hard?
- CACleo Abram
It's so hard.
- TNTrevor Noah
What's hard about it?
- CACleo Abram
Um, the, the-
- TNTrevor Noah
Knowing that your friends might see you doing it?
- CACleo Abram
[laughs] No. The balance of doing it.
- EUEugene
Oh, that's so good.
- CACleo Abram
And, like, chasing.
- TNTrevor Noah
I mean, you know, you know which side of this we on, man.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
You know which side of this we on, man. Come on, baby.
- 1:14:00 – 1:21:00
How Helicopters Shouldn't Exist (But Do Anyway)
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, man.
- EUEugene
We're walking home after this thanks to you.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- EUEugene
Ooh. Ah.
- CACleo Abram
Amazing. [clears throat]
- TNTrevor Noah
I'm gonna go get another drink.
- EUEugene
Look, she doesn't even have water.
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- EUEugene
You see what happens with no funding.
- TNTrevor Noah
Actually, I need wa-
- CACleo Abram
I chugged it
- TNTrevor Noah
... can we, can I get you water, Cleo?
- CACleo Abram
I chugged it.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
She chugged it to-
- EUEugene
For the sake of science
- TNTrevor Noah
... she chugged it for the sake of science-
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
... to show us something. Oh, it's, it's right behind you-
- CACleo Abram
Thank you
- TNTrevor Noah
... in the credenza.
- CACleo Abram
Thank you. In the credenza.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's in the credenza.
- EUEugene
It's called a credenza?
- TNTrevor Noah
In the credenza.
- EUEugene
And a credenza is something else.
- TNTrevor Noah
My uncle used to drive a-
- EUEugene
Credenza is a problem
- TNTrevor Noah
... a credenza. [laughs]
- EUEugene
Aw, thank you so... Thank you.
- 1:21:00 – 1:24:00
The Feeling of Awe (And Why Your Phone Sees the Northern Lights Better)
- TNTrevor Noah
unknowing?
- CACleo Abram
Hmm. You know, there's this feeling of awe when you look at something that you already know is spectacular.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- CACleo Abram
Like, you go and you look at, I've never seen this, but this is what I imagine the feeling of looking at, um, like the aurora, like the northern lights or, um-
- TNTrevor Noah
Bucket list
- CACleo Abram
... yeah, or like, um-
- TNTrevor Noah
Apparently better on your phone.
- CACleo Abram
Is it really?
- TNTrevor Noah
I, I just, I've just heard this.
- CACleo Abram
Well, you sound like a Debbie Downer.
- TNTrevor Noah
From the guides. No, I'm, I'm just ... From the guides they say-
- EUEugene
That's all they say
- TNTrevor Noah
... they say when you're there-
- EUEugene
Yeah
- CACleo Abram
Okay, what's something that fills you with a sense of awe?
- TNTrevor Noah
No, no, no. I just wanted to let you guys know that, the, it's beautiful y- on your phone when you're there because you should do something on this.
- CACleo Abram
About why it, like, fills you so-
- TNTrevor Noah
Because, because apparently-
- EUEugene
The resolution is better
- TNTrevor Noah
... apparently your phone-
- EUEugene
Artificial
- TNTrevor Noah
... and again, I'm only working on what I've heard from people who've gone there.
- EUEugene
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
And they've said that your guide even is like ... 'Cause you know, some people are like, "No, don't, don't pull out-"
- EUEugene
Why is your voice so calm all of a sudden?
- TNTrevor Noah
"... 'cause it's the nighttime sky, Eugene."
- EUEugene
Oh.
- TNTrevor Noah
You want me to be shouting like a rural bananas?
- CACleo Abram
We're feeling, we're feeling awe.
- EUEugene
Yeah.
- 1:24:00 – 1:30:00
Eugene's Grand Theft Auto Theory About the Next 100 Years
- EUEugene
is, um ... I, I have a theory that the next 100 years we won't see any huge technologic- technological jumps.
- CACleo Abram
Really?
- EUEugene
I think it will be, to explain it to people, will be the same as how we've been, as gamers, anticipating the release of Grand Theft Auto VI.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes. Preach, brother.
- EUEugene
But then it keeps being postponed.
- TNTrevor Noah
It does indeed.
- EUEugene
And, in its postponement, we've realized that there's so much we haven't explored in Grand Theft Auto V.
- TNTrevor Noah
Ooh, interesting.
- EUEugene
We keep discovering new universities.
- CACleo Abram
No, that-
- EUEugene
There's upgrades. It gets better and better, and we, like ... Now we've come out and said, "But Grand Theft Auto VI can wait." But I think there's so much that we haven't explored about, 'cause we've been on this technological binge and gorge, as you were saying, that-
- TNTrevor Noah
We're just going to the next thing-
- EUEugene
We've just move, move, move
- TNTrevor Noah
... before we-
- EUEugene
Devices
- CACleo Abram
I think it probably means, what-
- EUEugene
Shows, information
- CACleo Abram
... what do you mean by, like, big shift? Like, I think that's-
- EUEugene
Like, there won't be any new technology that blows us out the water.
- TNTrevor Noah
That's your bet?
- EUEugene
That's my 100% bet.
- TNTrevor Noah
Wow.
- CACleo Abram
I think that's-
- TNTrevor Noah
We should save this.
- EUEugene
Please do.
- TNTrevor Noah
No, no, no, I'm, I'm serious. Just as, like, a bet.
- EUEugene
Yeah, yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
I'm interested.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah, but I think-
- TNTrevor Noah
I don't think you're crazy, but I-
- 1:30:00 – 1:36:00
Why Leaving Vox Was "So Brave" (And What That Really Means)
- CACleo Abram
gratifying things about making Huge If True has been that all of a sudden there are other people who are along for the same ride you are, that feel the same itch that you do, that, that also felt like the journalism that they were getting-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm
- CACleo Abram
... was, was pessimistic and it wasn't a full media diet, and they wanted something like this. Like, to, to be, um, to see that other people have the same feeling that you do is really, really gratifying.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm.
- CACleo Abram
And I knew that in order to make something that had this kind of, to be honest, like, sharp edge-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- CACleo Abram
... like, Huge is different than other media that I consume, and it, that's not to say that other media isn't great. Um, but I, there is, there are things that I'm saying I don't like about mainstream media. There are things that, like, I, the show has a, an incredible positivity and a joy. It also has an edge. It's saying, like, there is harm in being knee-jerk pessimistic.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- CACleo Abram
There is a, there is a, a point to this show. Um, and we're doing things a different way, and that, that feeling, I just knew that I wouldn't be able to do that in the way that I really wanted to do it, and I wouldn't be able to test whether the actual thing that was in my brain was a thing that other people wanted if I was inside a big media company.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- CACleo Abram
Like, I just, I, to be clear, I wasn't offered the opportunity to make this show inside a big media company, but I didn't even, I didn't pitch it. I didn't, I didn't want to have the incentives and the constraints and the lack of control inside a big media company.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. And we talk about this all the time. Media. Yeah. We literally talk about this all the time.
- CACleo Abram
You did this.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- CACleo Abram
And in fact, and, and so that was the, the main, the main point, was I really wanted to make this show the way that I wanted to make it.
- TNTrevor Noah
Weren't you, w- were you ever afraid? Of meeting us?
- CACleo Abram
Yeah. [laughs] No.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
But-
- TNTrevor Noah
Look at what it's done to you already.
- CACleo Abram
[laughs] Um, yeah, all the time.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah. I think there's still, when you're, when you're making anything that you really love, I think there's an underlying fear of it first not working, then when it is working, "Oh my God, it m- might, it might go away."
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm. Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
Like, there's a... You live with a kind of... When you're really doing something that you love, you live with a kind of healthy fear, I think.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm. Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
I think that's good. I think that feels good, actually, to not always feel, first the fear of something not working means that I think you're pushing yourself creatively. Second, the fear of other people not liking it means that you are potentially making something that some people will dislike and some people will love.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
And that's probably healthy. And third, there's just the fear of putting yourself out there.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- 1:36:00 – 1:44:00
The Three Pillars and How to Not Let Success Ruin You
- CACleo Abram
do people want to watch that? Is that-
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm
- CACleo Abram
... because the, the reason why I am so ambitious with this show, I really want this show to be watched by many, many more people than it is now, is because I actually think it accomplishes something that I want to happen in the world. I, I really think that if more people had generally a media diet that allowed them to see these visions more often and allowed them part, to participate more in the conversation and allowed them to explore how they could contribute to the world in an optimistic way, we'd all be better for it.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
And I wish more people were doing it, but right now, like, the way that I can accomplish that in the world is through making this show enormous. And so I, I have this incredibly strong ambition and motivation to make this show watched by millions and millions of people, which it already is, and it's, it's growing, and I'm so incredibly proud of that. Um, but at the same time, I'm not, I'm not trying to find the way in which they'll like me. I'm trying to see if they like this.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
There's a world in which nobody wanted to watch this-
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay
- CACleo Abram
... and then I just stopped.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- CACleo Abram
Because I wasn't, I wasn't experimenting. I didn't start out the channel by saying, you know, "Here I am. I'm gonna explore. Like, I'm just gonna make things. Like, come along with me for the, for the journey."
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- CACleo Abram
I said, "I'm gonna make this show." And that, I think, has been really protective.
- TNTrevor Noah
Well, yeah. You've separated yourself from the project, from the work.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah. And then the other thing that's happened-
- TNTrevor Noah
That's, isn't, isn't that in-
- CACleo Abram
... along the way-
- TNTrevor Noah
Sorry to interrupt you.
- CACleo Abram
Hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
I feel like that's, that's in that book, I'm sure many people have said it, but in that book, um, The War of Art.
- CACleo Abram
Hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
I think one of the... It's really amazing. I think you'd, you'd, you'd enjoy it. But it talks about the, the complicated nature of artistry and-
- CACleo Abram
Hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... and the journey of making and what it means to create, right?
- CACleo Abram
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
To take something from nothing, bring it out into the world, make it something, and then other people consume it.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
And one of, one of the main things it speaks about is how The true mastery of being an artist requires you to know that you are not your work, and your work is not you, but you have deep pride in that work.
- EUEugene
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Because if you're unable to separate yourself from it, then in its success or in its failure, you will always define yourself.
- 1:44:00 – 1:50:00
YouTube Is Eating Television and Nobody Can Stop It
- CACleo Abram
And it's made even more complicated by the second trend, which is-
- TNTrevor Noah
Which is
- CACleo Abram
Like all of us who m- might have been employees at large companies-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yep
- CACleo Abram
... then go independent.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- CACleo Abram
And so the, the trend-
- TNTrevor Noah
Go rogue
- CACleo Abram
... I mean, I, I'm thinking... Yeah. [laughs] I'm thinking of the trend particularly in journalism of people going independent. Um, but it's-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh
- CACleo Abram
... true in, in many other places too.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CACleo Abram
It's obviously true in comedy.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- CACleo Abram
It's, it's true in lots of different industries. And to that I would say I'm a part, and Huge is a part, and you're a part of this second trend of independence-
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm
- CACleo Abram
... that is created by the first trend of-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- CACleo Abram
... the success of YouTube. And then the third trend is, maybe, maybe it's a part of a story about pessimism itself.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
It's, it's part of a story about the feeling that people have about news and the world getting worse, and the feeling that, that news has contributed to our understanding of the world getting worse.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, definitely.
- CACleo Abram
And Huge is something different.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- CACleo Abram
And so those, I think are the three like, stories in the world that we are somehow in the middle of the Venn diagram on. And it's an interesting place to be because, to your point, there are all kinds of parts of those stories. There, there are the, the shadow sides of each of those things. There's the extreme upside of like, what if?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah.
- CACleo Abram
What if this, these trends continue and, you know... I mean, we're already at a place. It's so interesting to look at the difference between when I launched just three years ago and where we are now. I mean, the story when I launched was like, new media is coming.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
This is something that is coming. Like, we're, we're long since here.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- 1:50:00 – 1:57:00
The Island Theory: Why People Get Uncomfortable When You Leave
- TNTrevor Noah
I chose comedy. Everyone said-
- CACleo Abram
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... "What are you doing? You have a great op- what are you doing? What are you-
- CACleo Abram
You're a step away from being at Breakfast.
- TNTrevor Noah
And the thing it made me- You're one slot away ... what it made me realize, even at that time, was not only did they not see the possibility that I was aiming for- Mm ... it made them uncomfortable. Hmm. Hmm. Because if you're on, if you're living on an island, someone gets on a boat and says, "I'm sailing somewhere else that we cannot see," you'll be shocked at how it makes the people on that island angry and uncomfortable. Hmm. Because they're like, "Are you saying this isn't it? Are you..." People start to internalize things. They go, "Are, are you saying I'm boring for staying on this island?" Or, "Are you saying there's a better island out there? Are, are you saying this island might not exist in a few years?" It highlights their insecurities. "Are you saying..." And all of a sudden, people get angry at you. Hmm. "How could you? Why would you leave? What are you doing, Fox? Are you kid-" And so whenever I see people who do that- Hmm ... you know what I mean? It, for some reason it, it sparks something in me. Hmm. We only wanna leave when everything's fallen apart. We only want to explore when we're forced to go. And I'll, I often think to myself, "Wouldn't it be beautiful if you could find those opportunities and those moments to do it in, like, a good leave with energy, you know?" Yeah. Don't escape. Embark. There's a different feeling in- Yeah ... in both of them. And so for me, it was one of those things where I was like, "What you're doing was crazy." It was genuinely crazy, and I was so impressed by it. I was like, "Ah. I mean, I've loved the stuff you've made. Good luck. You're gonna kill it out there. You've got the talent." Hmm. Those types of people, you're one of them as well. Those are the types of people who inspire me. 'Cause I go like, "What are you doing? Oh, boy." [laughs] "All right. Well, that's a crazy thought." Yeah. Like, with Eugene, it was like the opposite. Eugene, like, just took a break at some point, and I was like, "What are you doing?" And he's just like, "Yeah, I'm taking a break." I was like, "Whew. You're taking a break?" He's like, "Yeah, I'm just gonna pause for a while." Hmm. And I remember d- it's the craziest thing. S- I was so inspired by the fact that this human being showed me that there was the option to take a break, even though you don't know what's on the other side of that break. Hmm. So in all of these, I'm just like, "Yeah, man." And, and by the way, I didn't think you were making the right choice. Yeah. I just thought you were making a good choice. Good choice, yeah.
- CACleo Abram
Oh, interesting.
- TNTrevor Noah
Does that make sense?
- CACleo Abram
Because the question I wanted to ask you, if I'm, if I'm honest about that message-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- CACleo Abram
... what you said was, "I've been wondering when you're gonna do that." And I thought to myself two things.
- TNTrevor Noah
Sounds like him. [laughs]
- CACleo Abram
I th- I thought to myself two things. The first was, "You know who I am?" [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
"When did you start wondering this?" And the second thing I thought was, "How did you know that that was even an option?" Like, because for me, going independent on YouTube, there was at least one person, Johnny Harris on Is Harris, who were building a journalistic independent media group from... That he had left Vox. And so there was at least one example that I could see of someone doing this well.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- CACleo Abram
But until I actually began thinking about doing it, it didn't feel like one of the options that was available to me. And I thought it was gonna be the start of what, what has now become true, which is this wave of sort of people going independent-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- CACleo Abram
... both in journalism and in comedy and in, and in all walks of life. Um, but at the time, like, how did you know that that was an option? Because my perception is I should have been more likely to know that that was true than you, who were at the kind of the, the pinnacle of mainstream media success.
- TNTrevor Noah
So I, I, I didn't know that it was an option, but I think s- I sometimes have... I dunno if it's just an innate ability, but I, I can oftentimes spot somebody who is an outlier in the environment that they're in.
- CACleo Abram
Hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And it doesn't necessarily mean that they don't gel with their environment. I just go like, "Yeah, you, you're gonna leave." And not leave in a bad way. You're just, you're gonna leave. Does, does that make sense?
- CACleo Abram
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Because there's, there's, there's something about you that tells me you are going to do something that goes beyond the... So on your side, I mean, now I'd have to be, like, trying to go back and remember what it was, but maybe just having this conversation with you, I was probably thinking at the time, "You're creating these explainers. You're, you're, you're making this world really interesting, entertaining, positive, despite what the content is." It was all about, like, Congress and-
- CACleo Abram
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... and the Senate, and this is not an, a positive world.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
And it's not necessarily an interesting world.
- CACleo Abram
An exciting... Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
But it is definitely a limited world. You know what I mean? And so maybe I saw in you something that maybe I hoped to see in myself, which was, "Oh, I'm not only this thing."
- CACleo Abram
Hmm. Yeah.
- 1:57:00 – 2:00:00
Ancient Philosophers Were Just Early YouTubers
- TNTrevor Noah
tell him, I go like, "Oh, you remind me, to use your analogy-
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... that being a human being, no matter who you are, you have your antenna up there.
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Certain things will make them vibrate more than others.
- EUEugene
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
You'll catch more frequencies than others.
- EUEugene
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
But it doesn't mean that you should only vibrate at the strongest frequencies.
- EUEugene
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Explore the other ones.
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Do you know what I mean?
- EUEugene
The faint signal.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. There's-
- EUEugene
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... this, this faint signal that's also wonderful to have. And so, I don't know. I, I, I think it was something like that with you, where I was just like, when I would see you there, I'd go, "Well, this can't be the only thing that you find interesting." So-
- EUEugene
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... it's only a matter of time before I assume you're just gonna go and make your own thing somehow, somewhere. So when it happened, I wasn't-
- EUEugene
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... I wasn't particularly shocked. I was like, "Oh, yeah. All right." I was waiting to see when this would happen.
- EUEugene
I think, um, [sighs] sometimes when you revisit the past, you get to see what the present and the future will definitely look like. What you guys are explaining now and from hearing this is, is no different from how ancient civilizations always rewarded and found a way to crowdfund, well, they called it something else back then-
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- EUEugene
... to crowdfund philosophers. And those philosophers should have apprentices, and those apprentices m- will one day become the philosophers of their time. And the written word was the only way that those philosophers ... Was their, was their YouTube.
- TNTrevor Noah
Interesting.
- EUEugene
So those people were paid to think of ideas-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
- EUEugene
... to envision how politics should be, and how art and culture, and if you had a great idea, if you could think, if you could paint, if you could sculpt, pay this person to just do that thing, and that's how civilizations are born. And I think we might just not see this now, but 200 years from now, if someone looks at this portal that was opened, which is YouTube, which is equivalent to thousand years ago to written and spoken word, scrolls-
- TNTrevor Noah
It's like a-
- EUEugene
... rock painting
- 2:00:00 – 2:04:00
Climbing Mountains You Don't Even Want to Climb
- TNTrevor Noah
others."
- EUEugene
Basically what you're saying is Michelangelo didn't spend years upside down painting the ceiling of the [laughs] of the Basilica for him to look at it.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, damn.
- EUEugene
He did it for other people.
- CACleo Abram
Other people.
- EUEugene
Yeah.
- CACleo Abram
That's beautiful.
- TNTrevor Noah
That is.
- CACleo Abram
And so what's it, what's it been like? What, what is, if the lesson is a, an ability to more fully experiment with or express who you are, what's it been like for you? What do you feel like you're able to express now? What are you trying to experiment with?
- EUEugene
Hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, that's an interesting question. Damn. Um, okay, so here's, here's, here's the analogy I would use. I think a lot of life is us trying to climb a mountain, and a lot of the times, that mountain is often introduced to us by others. They tell us, "Hey, that mountain over there, man, if you can climb that mountain, phew, you've done it."
- CACleo Abram
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And so then we, we grow up our whole lives going, "Okay, mountain. All right, mountain. One day." And then at some point you start. You start climbing the mountain. You start climbing the mountain. You s- and while you're climbing the mountain, you might meet some people along the way who've either come down or have settled at certain parts of it.
- CACleo Abram
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And they'll, you know, they'll be like, "Oh, yeah, the mount- welcome to the mount- yeah, the mountain. Yeah, mount, mountain, mountain. Yeah, mount. We're gonna ... I will see you at the mountain." And you're climbing it, and if you ask yourself the question, "Why am I climbing it?" It's c- because I've, I've always wanted to climb. I've always, you know?
- CACleo Abram
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's only when you get to what you have to define as your peak that you stop and go, "Oh, this is lovely. This was hard. But what mountains do I wanna climb? Do I wanna go walk in valleys?"
- CACleo Abram
[laughs]
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
"Do I wanna stroll a- along rivers? Do I want to... Oh, I've, I've now climbed what mountains people hoped I would climb."
- CACleo Abram
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
"So now what would I like to do?"
- CACleo Abram
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And in that exploration, it's terrifying because first of all, success or failure becomes like a, you know, everyone has the, " [laughs] When are you, uh, you gonna get back to mountain?" And you're like, "No."
- CACleo Abram
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know?
- CACleo Abram
Hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Like, one of the number one things people ask me in general is like, "So what's, uh, what's next?" That's, that's why I named the podcast is, like, What Now? "So, what now?"
- CACleo Abram
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
"What now?" And I was like, "What do you mean?" And they're like, "So, what, uh, what, what..." I'm like, "I'm gonna live life." And they go, "Yeah, but I mean [laughs] beyond that." I'm like, "What is beyond living life?" And now I get to enjoy all of that more. I wouldn't have had the time before to sit down with you like this and to sit down with one of my best friends and explore and learn and have a deeper understanding of how you create and, you know what I mean? Get into the mind of somebody who's gonna be shaping generations to come because of her work.
- 2:04:00 – 2:10:39
When Your Mom Thinks Stand-Up Comedy Is a Drug Front
- CACleo Abram
are doing right now is part of, like we talked about, this, this wave, that there is a very-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, y-
- CACleo Abram
... real future-
- TNTrevor Noah
So now, yes
- CACleo Abram
... where in l- in literal terms, in the success terms that people used to talk to you about-
- TNTrevor Noah
That's so funny
- CACleo Abram
... this actually could be the bet-
- TNTrevor Noah
You're good
- CACleo Abram
... that is the biggest thing you ever make, that is-
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- CACleo Abram
... ah, that is, like, it, like-
- TNTrevor Noah
So-
- CACleo Abram
And that's kind of hard to keep together, right? Because what you're expressing is a very healthy psychology of like, "I'm doing this because I wanna do this."
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- CACleo Abram
But at the same time, there is a reality here where you're experiencing this wave of independent-owned media, and you own it, and you're making something that, I don't know what The Daily Show viewership was, I don't know what your viewership is right now, but, like, in a very real way, this could be or become the biggest thing you ever make because you're all of a sudden part of this, this new mountain.
- TNTrevor Noah
So it, it's, it, uh-
- CACleo Abram
Hard to do, hold both things at the same time
- TNTrevor Noah
... know what you ... I think that's exactly what it is, hold them both at the same time. I'll tell you why. When Eugene and I started doing comedy in South Africa, at the time, comedy was how many years old?
- CACleo Abram
Sure. Less than-
- TNTrevor Noah
Like, like stand-up comedy, and I mean this because-
- CACleo Abram
Less than 10
- TNTrevor Noah
... yeah, because remember, we didn't have free speech in South Africa because of apartheid, right?
- CACleo Abram
Hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
So it's not, that's what I mean by stand-up comedy widespread people doing.
- CACleo Abram
Hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
It wasn't really a thing.
- CACleo Abram
Was less than, less than 10.
- TNTrevor Noah
You have the first wave of comedians who jumps out and they start doing the comedy, right? We were like the second wave, I would argue.
- CACleo Abram
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
But it was a, a relatively young scene. There were no comedy clubs. This was not a structure or a thing. I remember once my mom saying to me, "What do you do? Like, where are you going? What" And I said, "I, I do stand-up comedy." And my mom said to me, "Trevor, this lifestyle of selling drugs is gonna catch up with you."
Episode duration: 2:10:42
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