Have We Missed The Message? with Ta-Nehisi Coates | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

Trevor Noah 0:00 When I was growing up, from, from Good Times all the way to Fresh Prince-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 0:03 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 0:03 ... I was seeing a different type of, of Blackness where it wasn't its full complexity.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 0:08 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 0:08 And so I was like, "We gotta get to that." And then the music filters to us.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 0:11 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 0:11 And the style filters to us, and the vibe filters. You, you get what I'm saying?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 0:14 I do.

Trevor Noah 0:14 And because it is novel and because it seems to be completely, like, you know, devoid of all conflict and-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 0:21 Yeah

Trevor Noah 0:21 ... and, and, and struggle in a weird way, we as- we aspire to it.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 0:25 Mm.

Trevor Noah 0:26 And then I would ... I came to America, and then I met Black Americans who were all like, "Man, I can't wait to get to Africa."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 0:30 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 0:30 "Man, I can't wait." They're like, "Man, I gotta ... Man, the ..." And I was like, "Wait, what?" I was like, "Wait, we-"

Ta-Nehisi Coates 0:35 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 0:36 My cousins were trying to sound like Tupac.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 0:38 Right, right, right, right, right.

Trevor Noah 0:38 You know what I mean?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 0:39 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 0:39 My cousins were try-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 0:40 Yeah, yeah

Trevor Noah 0:40 ... and, and I was like, "Wait, we're trying to come here, and you're trying to come here."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 0:42 Yes, yes, yes. [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 0:47 Ta-Nehisi Coates is not just one of the sharpest and most beautiful writers working today. Every time he puts something out, it seems to shake the world. The Case for Reparations, Between the World and Me, his work on Black Panther, and his new book, The Message, is no different because in it he travels to South Carolina to tackle book banning. He goes to Senegal to rediscover roots that he's not sure he has. And then he delves into one of the most difficult subjects in the world today, Israel-Palestine. Most people know his work, but very few people know the man behind the words. And so this week, I sat down with him and my good friend Christiana to get into the conversations that he doesn't always get to have, and try and figure out how and why he sees the world the way he does. [upbeat music] This is What Now? With Trevor Noah. [upbeat music] So yeah, man, Ta-Nehisi, welcome, man.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:54 Thanks for having me. This is what we're gonna do the whole show?

Trevor Noah 1:56 We can.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:56 'Cause I could go.

Christiana 1:57 Yeah, have a good time.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:57 I could keep going.

Trevor Noah 1:58 We can. I can-

Christiana 1:58 Yeah, let's go

Trevor Noah 1:58 ... actually, that's the first thing I do wanna ask you, like-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 2:01 Yeah

Trevor Noah 2:01 ... do you ever feel, like, do you ever miss being treated like a normal human being? Because so many people, I think, see you as only an intellectual body-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 2:10 Yes

Trevor Noah 2:11 ... that I don't know how many people just, like, shoot the shit with you.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 2:13 Well, for- fortunately, I have family and friends who really don't care.

Trevor Noah 2:16 [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 2:17 They, they just don't care. You know, I've been thinking about this a lot this week. It's very, very important. Like, um, I'm a writer, and so that gives me a kinda status, right?

Trevor Noah 2:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christiana 2:25 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 2:25 But I am rarely the smartest person in any room. I'm not the funniest. I'm not the best looking. I'm not the most, most athletic. And so that, that's good. It's, you know, good to be reminded-

Trevor Noah 2:36 Right

Ta-Nehisi Coates 2:36 ... you know what I mean? That the thing out here, this is the abnormal thing. You know what I mean?

Trevor Noah 2:39 So do you, do you-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 2:40 And then there's life

Trevor Noah 2:41 ... do you pop into the abnormal thing, and then you live mostly life?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 2:44 I try to stay as far away from the abnormal thing as I can. It's very deceptive. Um, and I think it can damage people.

Christiana 2:50 So what's this like, having, going fully back into the abnormal thing, promoting a book?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 2:57 You know, it's dangerous in a very particular way. Um, like I- I think, like, this sort of thing is always dangerous-

Christiana 3:02 Mm

Ta-Nehisi Coates 3:02 ... but it's dangerous in a, in a, in a particular way because you actually are speaking beha- on behalf of another group of people.

Trevor Noah 3:08 Oh.

Christiana 3:08 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 3:09 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 3:09 Um, it's not really your story for a lot of it, and so you're trying to take extra care with it, while at the same time still being you.

Trevor Noah 3:18 For sure.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 3:19 Um, I, frankly, I don't know how, how, how long this can go on for. Um-

Trevor Noah 3:22 What, what do you mean by that?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 3:23 I just, I, you know, there, there are ... And we've experienced this as Black people, like, watching maybe White people who end up in spaces that we cannot be-

Christiana 3:32 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 3:32 ... and advocate for us. Um, and it's like I don't, there's, there's just great danger in being that person.

Trevor Noah 3:38 Huh.

Christiana 3:38 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 3:39 You know what I mean? Um, and there are people who, I mean, this is, like, where my darkest thoughts go. There are people who profit off of those positions.

Trevor Noah 3:46 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 3:46 You know what I mean?

Trevor Noah 3:46 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 3:47 Like, you know, I have to say what I, what I really, really need to say-

Christiana 3:50 Mm

Ta-Nehisi Coates 3:50 ... and then I, I really, it's very important that I get out the way, you know? Like, it's, it's really, really important that I, you know, go on the next, you know?

Christiana 3:56 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 3:56 That's an interesting thought because you, I think everyone has a different example of it in their heads, but I know for a fact I've seen people who, you know, it's, it's seldom writers, I think more people on social media, where they sort of traffic in the pain and suffering of others.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 4:13 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 4:13 At first, they're bringing awareness to it.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 4:15 That right there.

Christiana 4:15 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 4:15 And then at some point you're like-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 4:16 That's right

Trevor Noah 4:16 ... "Yo, is this your-"

Ta-Nehisi Coates 4:17 That's right.

Christiana 4:17 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 4:18 "Is this how you make your money now?"

Ta-Nehisi Coates 4:19 That's, that's what I'm talking about.

Christiana 4:20 It's your beat. You're right. This is your beat.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 4:21 That is what I'm talking about.

Trevor Noah 4:22 They're almost like, they're almost like ambulance chaser lawyers-

Christiana 4:24 Yes

Trevor Noah 4:24 ... where you go-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 4:24 Yes

Trevor Noah 4:24 ... I don't know if you actually care that people-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 4:26 Yes

Trevor Noah 4:26 ... got hurt at work.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 4:27 Yes.

Trevor Noah 4:28 I feel like this is how you make your money now.

Christiana 4:29 Yeah, it's your thing.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 4:30 That's it. That's it. That's it.

Christiana 4:30 So you're concerned about, like, people con- conflating somehow the things you're discussing with the project you're making and saying, "You're the spokesperson now."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 4:40 Yes. Yes, yes, but I would say even more deeply, like, my intention, my intention is to make room within the frame for people who have been pushed out of it. That, that is my intention.

Christiana 4:50 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 4:50 So it's not even, like, a ... It is a concern about perception-

Christiana 4:53 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 4:53 ... but there's a deeper concern about purpose.

Christiana 4:55 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 4:56 Um, I think, like, one of the questions I often, or I've gotten over the past few days is, "Are you worried about the pushback? Are you worried about the blowback?" Not really. I mean, I kinda knew what that was, and I knew it w- what was going, what, what I, you know, what was gonna happen going into it. But, you know, once the attention started, I think the thing I immediately began worrying about was becoming the guy and not clearing space for people who really, truly, truly, truly know and can really, really speak in a, in a way that I actually cannot.

Trevor Noah 5:24 It's, it's difficult though. I, you know, so I, I remember when I started on The Daily Show, and, like, Christiana has been with me almost, like, from the beginning, 'cause when did you come in?

Christiana 5:33 2017.

Trevor Noah 5:34 Oh, I love that you know the date.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 5:35 Wow.

Christiana 5:35 Yes. I was early hire.

Trevor Noah 5:35 I love that you know the date. Yeah, but it was early. So I'd been there, that means I'd been, only for a year I'd been hosting, right?

Christiana 5:40 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 5:40 I'd been there two years, but a year hosting, and I remember exactly what you're saying. I always, what I always loved on The Daily Show was that I had a, a platform and an opportunity, and I always saw it as, as, as, like, a, not an obligation-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 5:55 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 5:55 ... but, like, a, like, an opportunity. I was like, oh, this is cool.

Christiana 5:57 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 5:57 We get to talk about these ideas. And Christiana was always the person, like, filling in gaps for me. She's like, "Oh, Trevor, have you heard of this story? And I think there's a way we could look at this." And-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 6:05 Mm.

Trevor Noah 6:05 And to give credit to the building, there were many people who did that. It was like a brain trust-

Christiana 6:09 Yeah

Trevor Noah 6:09 ... that, like, sort of, you know, and then I was the sponge and the filter who goes, "I don't know if we, that works. I don't know if this works," et cetera. But to your point- It's like we would ... Let's say we talk about a shooting that takes place, and then we talk about another shooting, but then very quickly people would be like, "Oh, hey, there's more shootings, and there's more shootings, and the-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 6:26 Yeah, yeah

Trevor Noah 6:26 ... you gotta talk about ..." And then we-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 6:27 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 6:27 It- it's- it's- it's weird because on the one hand you want to be the person who gives voice to a topic.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 6:34 Mm-hmm.

Christiana 6:34 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 6:34 But on the other hand-

Christiana 6:35 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 6:36 ... you don't want it to be your thing.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 6:38 That's right.

Trevor Noah 6:39 Because in a strange way, you can either lose yourself or you can make-

Christiana 6:43 Yeah

Trevor Noah 6:43 ... people feel like it's you trying to make it your-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 6:46 Right

Trevor Noah 6:47 ... thing.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 6:47 Right. Right, right. And you cheapen maybe the thing that you're trying to actually bring attention to.

Trevor Noah 6:52 Yeah.

Christiana 6:52 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 6:52 Yeah.

Christiana 6:52 For sure.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 6:52 You know? Um, so, you know, I've, I've ... And I've been actually thinking about, and was just in a conversation with, uh, with someone about this, um, earlier today, about, like, what I can do structurally that is not visible, that is not, you know, public-

Trevor Noah 7:06 Mm-hmm.

Christiana 7:07 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 7:07 ... you know, to- to- to advance that aim.

Christiana 7:09 It's-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 7:09 Yeah

Christiana 7:09 ...

Christiana 7:09 it's so interesting. I love the book, by the way.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 7:11 Oh, thank you.

Christiana 7:11 What I was most pro-

Trevor Noah 7:12 It'd be great if you said you hated it.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 7:13 [laughs]

Christiana 7:14 Well, well-

Trevor Noah 7:15 What a joy.

Christiana 7:15 I didn't hate it.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 7:15 I've been through that.

Christiana 7:16 I didn't find-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 7:16 I've had that.

Trevor Noah 7:16 Oh, you have?

Christiana 7:17 No, no.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 7:17 I've had that.

Christiana 7:17 I didn't hate it. I didn't think maybe this is my politic.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 7:20 Yeah.

Christiana 7:20 It wasn't that radical. Everyone ... Like, I was like, "This is not that extreme."

Trevor Noah 7:23 Man.

Christiana 7:23 It's, I was like, "This is perfectly reasonable."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 7:24 Yeah.

Christiana 7:25 That's how I read it.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 7:25 Right.

Christiana 7:26 But the thing I was most profoundly moved by was your reflections on childhood.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 7:31 Yeah.

Christiana 7:31 Um, 'cause I'm raising children now, and I often think about how my son is experiencing his childhood-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 7:37 Mm-hmm

Christiana 7:37 ... and how my daughter is experiencing her childhood, and when you spoke about being a restless child-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 7:41 Mm-hmm

Christiana 7:41 ... and the cl- the confines of the classroom.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 7:44 Yes, yes.

Christiana 7:44 And, you know, reading kind of being this retreat from you, be- it being passed down by your parents, and it was like you spoke about the portrait of, that your father made-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 7:53 Mm-hmm

Christiana 7:53 ... that you're carrying with you, and I was like, to me it was like a reflection on beautiful parenting-

Trevor Noah 7:58 Oh

Christiana 7:58 ... in a way.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 7:58 Mm-hmm.

Christiana 7:59 But also a child that probably wasn't that happy a lot of the time.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 8:03 Mm.

Christiana 8:03 And I was just thi- I was just like, I ... For me, it was a remarkable that this child that was so restless, that would cry about a story-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 8:09 Yeah

Christiana 8:10 ... about the auntie that-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 8:10 Wow, you really read the book.

Christiana 8:11 No, I read the whole book.

Trevor Noah 8:12 Yeah. [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 8:12 You actually read the book. [laughs]

Christiana 8:13 The driver auntie is the same child that ends up in Dakar and ha- is, is-

Trevor Noah 8:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Christiana 8:17 ... it's, it's being like, "Oh, they see me as mixed-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 8:19 Yeah

Christiana 8:19 ... and is now-

Trevor Noah 8:20 Right

Christiana 8:20 ... in South Carolina dealing with this teach." To me it was just like, you know, you, you call your books your children-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 8:25 Yes

Christiana 8:25 ... but it was, it was st- it was so much about you. It was very personal-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 8:28 Yeah, yeah

Christiana 8:29 ... and very in- introspective. And I feel, feel a lot of that is being missed in place of the final chapter-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 8:36 Yeah, yeah

Christiana 8:37 ... and the, what, what you experienced in Israel and Palestine.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 8:40 You know, it's funny, I knew that was gonna happen too though.

Christiana 8:41 Okay.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 8:42 And I was okay with that. Um, one of the cool things about books is, like, they sit there.

Christiana 8:45 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 8:46 And so people will come back.

Trevor Noah 8:47 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 8:47 And they'll, they'll see that-

Christiana 8:48 Yeah, yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 8:48 ... over time. And in terms of just getting to the, the, the more personal aspects of stuff, um, I always tell my, my, my writing students, like, um, your readers could be doing anything else. You know, they could be watching TV, they could be on their smartphone-

Christiana 9:03 Mm-hmm

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:03 ... you playing video ga- You really have to justify the time.

Christiana 9:06 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:06 Like you really ... And so, like, I am always, like, trying to sacrifice and bleed on the page, you know?

Christiana 9:12 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:12 I, I really need you-

Christiana 9:13 For sure

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:14 ... to feel like my work is worth your time.

Christiana 9:17 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:17 You know? And so I'm, I'm trying to give everything I can-

Christiana 9:20 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:20 ... you know, when I'm writing.

Trevor Noah 9:22 Let, let me ask you a question about, you know, like on a human level, I, I, I honestly have to ask you this because I, I very seldom get angry on people's behalfs.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:30 Mm.

Trevor Noah 9:31 But man, we haven't been able to stop talking about the CBS interview.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:34 Wow.

Christiana 9:35 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 9:35 We, like, and I mean ... When I say we, I don't just mean the people who make this podcast.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:38 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 9:39 I mean, like, my friends-

Christiana 9:40 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:40 Yeah

Trevor Noah 9:40 ... people online.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:41 Really?

Trevor Noah 9:41 People-

Christiana 9:42 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 9:43 E- and I-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:43 I'm totally off.

Christiana 9:44 Oh, are you really?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:44 Yeah, I'm totally off.

Trevor Noah 9:45 Let me fill you in. Oh, you're off?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:46 Yeah, I'm completely off.

Trevor Noah 9:47 Oh.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:47 I'm completely off.

Christiana 9:47 Oh, our people are not happy about that.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:48 I mean, I'm obviously hearing this from other people.

Christiana 9:50 Yeah, yeah, no.

Trevor Noah 9:50 My friend, let me fill you in. Let me fill you in.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:52 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 9:53 I, I don't think you understand the shockwave that interview created-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 9:57 Mm

Trevor Noah 9:57 ... not because of what you said, but because of the way people felt like you were treated.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 10:01 Mm, mm.

Trevor Noah 10:02 Just, just the, the opening salve of that conversation.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 10:05 Right.

Trevor Noah 10:06 And I'll never forget the question that you get asked, where I think it's Tony who says to you ...

Speaker 10:10 When I read the book, I imagine if I took your name out of it, took away the awards and the acclaim, took the cover off the book, the publishing house goes away, the content of that section-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 10:21 Mm

Speaker 10:21 ... would not be out of place in the backpack of an extremist.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 10:25 Mm.

Trevor Noah 10:25 Yo, I sat there. I don't get flabbergasted by much.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 10:29 [laughs] Right.

Trevor Noah 10:29 I genuinely don't.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 10:30 Right.

Trevor Noah 10:30 I sat there and I was like, "What?" My first thought is, yes, but if you remove every context from everything, then everything could go anywhere.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 10:39 Right, right.

Trevor Noah 10:39 You know what I mean? If you remove America's history and-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 10:42 Right

Trevor Noah 10:42 ... America's Ge- America's this, then it's like, yeah, those people who fought against the British, they were terrorists.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 10:47 Mm-hmm.

Christiana 10:47 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 10:47 Mm-hmm, right.

Trevor Noah 10:48 You know what I mean?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 10:49 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 10:49 You can call it, like, uh, yeah, the Boston Tea Party. That's terrorism.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 10:52 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 10:52 If you remove the context, everything has no context. And I-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 10:55 Right

Trevor Noah 10:55 ... I'd like to know from you what ... like, maybe, like, why you think people do that. Why do they remove all context when speaking about Israel and Palestine?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 11:05 I, um, I've been trying to process why I wasn't so insulted. I think it's a couple things. I think, like, I love all of those awards and accolades, but they're not really me, so okay, you take them away, it's fine. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 11:16 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 11:17 You know what I mean? I'm still me.

Christiana 11:18 [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 11:18 I think also, I have been in this, in terms of the research and the writing, you know, from, you know, over a year now, and I guess, again, and I know I keep saying this, how much the extent to which Palestinians have been pushed out of the frame. Understanding how much of this was a third rail, I really, like, I, I knew this was coming.

Christiana 11:40 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 11:40 Okay.

Christiana 11:40 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 11:41 Even the, like, you know, right to exist, like I, I knew, like, the states' rights to ex- Like, I've, I've, I ... It was like you've been r- you know, like, shadow boxing and waiting for a fight.

Trevor Noah 11:49 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 11:49 And you see somebody throw the left that you've seen your sparring partner-

Christiana 11:52 Mm-hmm

Ta-Nehisi Coates 11:52 ... throw, like, a thousand times by then.

Christiana 11:53 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 11:54 And I figured at some point it was gonna be a fight. You know, I didn't know it was gonna be right then, but I figured at some point it was gonna be a fight. I wanna say something that actually is really important. The thing that went wrong in that interview more than anything, as far as I'm concerned, is Gayle King is a great journalist-

Trevor Noah 12:09 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 12:09 ... and a great in-

Christiana 12:09 Mm-hmm

Ta-Nehisi Coates 12:09 ... interviewer. And, um, Gayle came behind the stage before we went, and she had gone through the book. And I'm not saying she, like, agreed with the book, but she was like, "I wanna ask you about this, I wanna ask you about that. I want you..." It was like, all right.

Trevor Noah 12:23 Gayle was considered.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 12:24 Oh my God, all right.

Trevor Noah 12:24 If there's one thing Gayle King is, it's considered.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 12:26 Listen.

Trevor Noah 12:26 But she didn't speak.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 12:27 It was her handwritten notes. Her handwritten notes were there.

Christiana 12:30 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 12:31 You know what I mean? She had all these things, and I think while on the one hand, he probably did me a service, you know what I mean, by just kinda take, com- commandeering that interview.

Trevor Noah 12:43 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 12:43 I don't think he did Nate and Gayle a service.

Trevor Noah 12:46 Mm-hmm.

Christiana 12:46 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 12:47 And I, I'm really, really sorry for them. I ac- more than anything, I can take care of myself. You know? I'm good. I'm good. I, like I said, I've been hearing these arguments, I've been rehearsing, I've been...

Christiana 12:55 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 12:55 So, you know, if this is what you want to do, I, I'm okay doing it. Like, I'm good. I was okay. I left, shook his hand. I'm okay. Um, don't, don't cry for me. I'm sure, you know, that, that, that, that interview will sell a lot of books. Because the fact of the matter is, that reaction is actually endemic of what I'm, what I'm actually writing about.

Trevor Noah 13:15 Yeah.

Christiana 13:15 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 13:15 It is.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 13:16 There is no way in the world you can imagine a journalist who took the other side of that coming on here and somebody saying, "If we took away the covers, we took away the awards, we took a..." I feel like I would find this in the backpack of a settle- settler colonialist.

Trevor Noah 13:32 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 13:32 You can't even imagine that.

Christiana 13:33 Yeah, that framing just wouldn't, wouldn't come out.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 13:35 That fra- it doesn't exist.

Christiana 13:36 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 13:36 It's like 10 steps that need to happen before.

Christiana 13:38 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 13:38 And they aren't there.

Christiana 13:39 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 13:40 They aren't even there, you know what I mean? And so I think to your point, sorry I'm taking a long time to answer your question.

Trevor Noah 13:46 No, no, no. This is why we're here. This is a long time.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 13:48 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 13:48 There's no 20 seconds here, by the way.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 13:49 [laughs]

Christiana 13:50 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 13:50 That's the whole point of a podcast.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 13:51 Yes, yes.

Trevor Noah 13:51 We don't have 20 seconds.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 13:53 But, but to your point, um, removing the context I think is actually essential, you know what I mean? Because if you start asking why, then you really, really start to, to get into trouble. I mean, one of the things I've really tried to maintain both personally and in, you know, my public presentation is obviously my great horror at, maybe not obviously, but my great horror at O- at October 7th.

Trevor Noah 14:15 Right.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 14:15 The fact that I don't say that perfunctorily, but I say it because at the core of my politics is human life.

Trevor Noah 14:21 Yeah.

Christiana 14:21 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 14:22 And human life really, really matters to me. And thus, by that same token, i- if human life matters on October 7th, it should've mattered on October 6th and October 5th, too.

Christiana 14:30 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 14:30 Um, and understanding that, that it didn't. Uh, when I went over to travel, uh, to the West Bank and to Israel, and I was up and down the country. I went to, Jesus, from Haifa, uh, Jerusalem, South Hebron Hills, Hebron itself, uh, Lid, Tel Aviv. What they told me was Gaza's worse. Is I know you've seen some stuff-

Christiana 14:51 Mm

Ta-Nehisi Coates 14:51 ... and you, and you want me to tell you, Gaza, and this is obviously before October, they said Gaza is worse.

Trevor Noah 14:56 Wow.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 14:56 And I was trying to get there, but there's, you know, all sorts of things in terms of press access and everything-

Trevor Noah 15:00 Yeah.

Christiana 15:00 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 15:00 ... that I, that I, that I couldn't. And so I, I, I just think, like, is there room in the world, and I don't think there is right now, I actually don't think there is, to have genuine, genuine horror at what happened on October 7th, to feel like there, there, there really isn't a world in which, or reason, that I can apprehend. I'm not Palestinian, I'm Ta-Nehisi Coates, that I can apprehend for justifying anything like that. And yet understanding at the

Ta-Nehisi Coates 15:30 same time that things have histories, that they happen in, in, in the course of events. The example I think about all the time is, like, Nat Turner, right? Like, Nat Turner launches his rebellion in 1830.

Christiana 15:41 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 15:41 This man slaughters babies in their cribs.

Trevor Noah 15:44 Hmm.

Christiana 15:45 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 15:45 You know what I mean? Like, and I've, like, done this thought experience, o- this experiment for myself over and over. Does the degradation and dehumanization of slavery make it so that you can look past something like that? And I try to imagine, and I think I can accurately imagine, as much as possible, that there were enslaved people, no matter how dehumanized, that said, "This, this is too far."

Trevor Noah 16:11 Yeah.

Christiana 16:11 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 16:11 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 16:12 I can't do that. Now, here's the flip side of it, and I haven't said this out loud, but I think about it a lot. Were I 20 years old, born into Gaza, which is a giant open air jail, and what I mean by that is if my father is a fisherman and he goes too far out into the sea, he might get shot-

Trevor Noah 16:36 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 16:36 ... by somebody off of, you know, a side of Israeli boats. If my mother picks the olive trees and she gets too close to the wall, she might be shot. If my little sister has, you know, cancer and she needs treatment because there are no, you know, facilities to do that in Gaza, and I don't get the right permits, she might die. And I grow up under that oppression and that poverty, and the wall comes down, am I also strong enough or even constructed in such a way where I say, "This is too far"? I don't know that I am.

Trevor Noah 17:07 Hmm.

Christiana 17:08 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 17:08 You know, I don't, I, I, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't know that I am. You know? And I, and I just, um, I just wish we had room to work through that, you know what I mean?

Trevor Noah 17:18 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 17:18 And, and, and to think about that, and, and, and to talk about that. And I think that is not unique to Israel. That is not unique to Palestine. That is not unique to Zionism. That is human history. That's human beings. I always tell people, you know, like, they think if they lived in the time of slavery that they would not have been enslavers. And I always tell them, "You would've." [laughs]

Trevor Noah 17:41 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 17:41 You would've, 'cause it's a system.

Christiana 17:43 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 17:43 And most human beings, you know, we exist within-

Trevor Noah 17:45 Yeah, we exist within a system

Ta-Nehisi Coates 17:46 ... within context.

Trevor Noah 17:47 Yeah, we do.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 17:47 Within context. And without that, you know what I mean, this idea that there can be some triumphant, heroic individual who's gonna go above, um, and beyond.

Christiana 17:56 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 17:56 That, that just, that's not a real thing. That's not history. [paper rustling]

Trevor Noah 17:59 We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 18:10 I, I think about, um, y- you know, sometimes the best way for me to process a story that's happening now is to take a story that isn't happening now, because it, I have a little room, I have a little context But I remember having a conversation with, um, uh, President Obama when he was still in office, you know, and we, we were talking about this, like it was in an interview, and w- we're chatting, and I've asked, you know, state officials the same question, is I say, "I'm always intrigued by the notion of, like, a strike, as they call it-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 18:38 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 18:38 ... and the collateral damage." And I always go, "Do you ever wonder what collateral damage causes?" Not, and I'm not saying to justify, but do you ever wonder what it causes? So one of the stories that always stuck out to me was there was a strike that was conducted, and they were, they were getting, I think it was one of the heads of ISIS.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 18:53 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 18:54 He was in the back of a taxi. I don't know if you remember. It was like, and they shot down a missile, got the taxi, he was dead. And they were, they were all happy about it. And I remember we were at The Daily Show talking about this. And I said, "Wait, wait, how, where did they kill?" They said, "Yeah, we got him, clean strike, gone." I said, "What about the taxi driver?"

Ta-Nehisi Coates 19:09 Yeah, man. Mm.

Trevor Noah 19:10 And they were like, "Oh, yeah, well, the taxi's gone." I said, "Well, what, what about the taxi driver?"

Ta-Nehisi Coates 19:14 Yeah. Mm.

Trevor Noah 19:14 And they're like, "Yeah, but this is an ISIS terrorist." And I said, "Okay, maybe it's because I come from a, quote-unquote, third world country." Being a taxi driver, even in America, by the way, even in a first world, is like, those people are responsible for so many lives.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 19:30 Right.

Trevor Noah 19:30 Being a taxi driver is not a passion job.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 19:32 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 19:33 It's not a career that you aspire to. It's like, "This is what I'm doing to make ends meet." And I go, "When you've taken out a taxi driver, how many lives have you taken out around him? And I know you're celebrating that you've killed this person, but who might you have radicalized?"

Ta-Nehisi Coates 19:46 Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 19:47 Who might you have... You know, and it's, it's, it's, I, I, that's, that's I think one of the reasons I love your writing so much, is because it challenges us to continuously approach the most difficult topics with the nuance that anger and violence oftentimes don't get. You know? And, and to go back, funny enough, to that first question you were asked on CBS, I hadn't read the book, right? When that, when that happened, but I was now ready for this chapter. I was like, "Man, I'm" ... You know, I read through the book and I'm like, okay.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 20:16 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 20:16 And I'm reading about you loving American football in the beginning. I'm like, "Oh, this is sweet."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 20:20 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 20:20 But in the back of my mind now, it's like, you know when you've watched a movie trailer-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 20:23 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 20:23 ... and they've only shown you one part, and you're like-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 20:25 Right, right, right. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 20:25 I mean, I know it starts out right, but-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 20:27 Right, right, right, right, right, right

Trevor Noah 20:27 ... when does the explosion come?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 20:28 Right, right, right.

Trevor Noah 20:28 And I'm reading these sweet stories, and I'm picturing you crying because of a football player who's lo-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 20:32 Yes. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 20:32 ... who's, like, lost, he's paraplegic.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 20:34 Yes.

Trevor Noah 20:34 And you're crying, and you're having this journey, and then I'm reading about you in Baltimore and your father-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 20:37 Yeah

Trevor Noah 20:37 ... and you learning about reading and loving-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 20:39 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 20:39 ... and writing and talking to your students. But in the back of my head, I'm going, "Get ready, Trevor."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 20:44 Right.

Trevor Noah 20:45 There's a chapter in this book-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 20:46 Mm

Trevor Noah 20:46 ... that is gonna make you think about Ta-Nehisi differently.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 20:49 Mm.

Trevor Noah 20:49 I'm like, "What is this extremist thing?"

Ta-Nehisi Coates 20:50 Mm, mm, mm.

Trevor Noah 20:51 And what nobody mentions in that interview-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 20:53 Yeah

Trevor Noah 20:53 ... you spend the first, I wanna say, like, 10-ish pages-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 20:58 Yeah

Trevor Noah 20:58 ... speaking about the Jewish history.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 21:01 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 21:02 You spend the first 10 pages talking about the Holocaust.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 21:04 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 21:04 You spend the first pages talking about going through the memorial.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 21:07 You know, the names.

Trevor Noah 21:07 You talk about the names.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 21:09 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 21:09 That, a book of names-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 21:11 Yeah

Trevor Noah 21:11 ... that, that shows you all the millions of people who died in the Holocaust. You talk about the most painful stories. You know, those, those soldiers killing 2,000 Jewish people, not because the war was still happening, but because they just didn't want them to be free, and they knew the Russians were approaching, and they were gonna free them. And I didn't know some of these, like, individual moments, and I was like, "Damn, this is hard. Damn, this is painful." The... But all I kept thinking was, I was like, "Wait, wait, wait. This is not in the backpack of an extreme." This is like-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 21:38 It's probably not. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 21:39 No, but that's what I mean, is like, you-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 21:40 No, it's- It's not. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 21:43 And maybe, maybe this is, you know, it's a long way of me getting to the question, and that is, like, why would you start telling the story of the Palestinian people, that chapter, why would you start that story with the history of the Jewish people?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 21:56 It's actually not about the Palestinian people. Um, and I, you know, I have to be pretty open about that. Um, it takes a pic- a particular perspective, definitely. But, um, if you notice, there's, like, symmetry, although it's not deliberately called out, between that Senegal chapter and the Israel chapter. Yeah, I felt that. Yeah. Yeah. I felt that. And it's because in Dakar I'm confronting stories, imagined ideas that play a role in the politics, and then having to deal with Africa as a, as an actual place. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 22:29 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 22:30 You know what I mean? With people. [laughs] With people.

Trevor Noah 22:31 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 22:32 People. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 22:33 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 22:33 Who don't celebrate Kwanza. You know what I mean? Like-

Trevor Noah 22:35 [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 22:36 [laughs] You know, like, having to deal with that. You know, and, and, and, and I s- and, you know, frankly, I still haven't quite figured it all out yet, but, but the mess of that, and then, you know, like, working through that, right? You know, um, man, it is something to have a African name that nobody in Africa has. That's what I have.

Trevor Noah 22:53 Oh, wow.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 22:54 I have an African name that nobody in Africa has, right? Um, and so you're kind of, like, working through that. And I actually think that's okay. You know, I actually think that's fine, but, like, trying to work through that. And then here I am in this place where some of the, uh, I would say nationalist impulse that I grew up around and grew up under has been taken to, like, the Nth degree. Mm-hmm. Like, it's actually been operationalized. You know, it's not, you know, just people without power- Yeah ... trying to, you know, create stories, and trying to preserve themselves, and trying to armor themselves against an oppression. Um, it has become an actual state, and I knew I was gonna write about that, but, um, you see, this doesn't work if you can't see yourself in Israel and in Zionism. If, if you can't, if you think it is just evil people over here doing an evil thing, then you've missed it. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Trevor Noah 23:46 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 23:46 You've missed it. This started somewhere. You know what I mean? It's, it, it started somewhere, and, and I have to be honest, and I, and I said this in the piece. Once I started reading, like, the documents around Zionism, it was like, on one level I was like, "Oh, this is so clearly colonialism." Like, I, I recognize a colonialist discourse. Well, first of all, they use the word colonize, but also, you know, depicting the people over there in, in a certain way.

Trevor Noah 24:09 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 24:09 Either as they don't exist or they're, or they're savage, one or the other. Mm-hmm. But the other part was I recognized the yearning. Like, I recognized, you know, Moses has, talking about being a member of a degraded people. At one place he says, you know, "You're, you're- Your nose and your hair won't be made to disappear. You can't pretend you're German.

Christiana 24:29 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 24:29 He's saying this before the Holocaust. You know what I mean? You can't hide your Jewishness. You should be proud of it. And all I can hear is, like, Malcolm X, right?

Christiana 24:37 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 24:37 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 24:37 So I'm, like, recognizing it.

Trevor Noah 24:39 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 24:39 Like, I can feel-

Christiana 24:40 The parallels

Ta-Nehisi Coates 24:41 ... the parallels.

Christiana 24:42 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 24:42 Yeah, and, and, and the fraternity for it and, and, and, and, and the sympathy. Like, like, I understand it, but then you see where it goes, right?

Christiana 24:49 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 24:49 You, you, you, you, you see where, where, where it goes and how a people who have been just repeatedly degraded o- over centuries, massacred, killed, chased, eth- ethnically cleansed themselves out, out, out of Spain, you know, um, can go somewhere and perpetrate and create a system of just dire inhumanity. Dire inhuman- I say this having seen it, you know, against other people. That was a challenge for me as a Black person, actually. You know what I mean?

Christiana 25:21 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 25:21 Like, as much as I was, like, concerned about Zionism and what it, what it did because I started thinking, and this is imaginative and speculative, but this is, I think, what writers are supposed to do. What would we be if we had power? Like, what would we do?

Christiana 25:37 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 25:38 You know? And then there's this discourse around Liberia where African Americans had this whole thing about, "Oh, we're gonna go back to Africa, and we're gonna civilize our brethren," right?

Trevor Noah 25:45 Yeah.

Christiana 25:45 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 25:46 We're gonna civ- we're gonna Christianize and civilize them. And you see, my God, like, we could be seduced into the same thing.

Trevor Noah 25:52 Yeah.

Christiana 25:52 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 25:52 You know? And that's why I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm very, um, strong on this point. This is not a Jewish era. It's not a Zionist era. You know what I mean? This is a human, a deeply, deeply human temptation that is wrong, but human, human nonetheless.

Christiana 26:09 I find in the book, what I found was interesting, I feel you implicate yourself. You talk about-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 26:15 Mm

Christiana 26:15 ... I see American imperialism.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 26:18 Oh, yeah.

Christiana 26:19 I see, uh, you know, evangelical Christianity.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 26:22 Mm-hmm.

Christiana 26:22 And as an, a bearer of an American passport who can go through certain checkpoints that-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 26:26 Yes

Christiana 26:26 ... other can't, I am enmeshed with that-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 26:29 Yeah

Christiana 26:29 ... whether I like it or not.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 26:30 Yeah.

Christiana 26:30 So you're, like, calling yourself out-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 26:32 Yeah

Christiana 26:32 ... as an American in a way that I don't think people are necessarily acknowledging. You're not saying, "Oh, this is the big, bad Israel."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 26:38 Right.

Christiana 26:38 You're saying, "This is us."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 26:39 It's actually us, and that, and that's the key difference. 'Cause people will tell you, they say, "Well, well, what about, you know, Sudan? What about China? What about..." You know, they'll, they'll name all the places where horrible things are happening. What about Saudi A- And they're not wrong.

Christiana 26:50 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 26:50 You know, they're not wrong. But this is our horrible thing. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 26:53 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 26:53 That, that is the key. That is actually the, the key difference, you know? Um, every single fighter plane that drops a bomb on Gaza came from America. Ev- every single one. Every single one.

Christiana 27:07 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 27:07 You know? I was, I got that from, uh, there's a report by, by this guy Josh Paul, um, and, uh, this great Palestinian American law professor, Noura Erakat, that they wrote together. Josh Paul used to be in the State Department, and he worked in the area, um, that oversaw the sale of weapons to other countries until he was just like, "I can't do this anymore."

Christiana 27:27 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 27:27 And he sent me, you know, um, a couple weeks ago, like, the report that they, that, that he and Noura had done just outlining the human rights violations that, that had come over, ov- over the past year or so. And I saw that line about... And, uh, and this was after. And I was like-

Christiana 27:42 Mm

Ta-Nehisi Coates 27:42 ... "My God, this is really all us."

Christiana 27:43 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 27:43 You know what I mean? You just get more and more evidence. And I'll tell you even more so because we walk around the world, we go around the world, maybe not walk, we go around the world saying we are the font of democracy. We advanced ourselves through the fight against enslavement. We advanced ourselves through the fight against segregation.

Christiana 28:00 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 28:00 We advanced ourselves. You know what I mean? Uh, Martin Luther King is our patron saint.

Christiana 28:04 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 28:05 But we are supporting segregation right now. Right now. See, that's the one thing that, that, about that CBS interview, right? Like, when I say segregation, apartheid, not once did somebody say-

Trevor Noah 28:14 No

Ta-Nehisi Coates 28:14 ... "That's not true."

Trevor Noah 28:15 Yeah, he kept on saying, "And why is that?"

Ta-Nehisi Coates 28:17 Right. Right, right. Not-

Christiana 28:18 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 28:18 ... "That's not true."

Trevor Noah 28:19 Yeah, no. He said, "Why, and why is that happening?"

Ta-Nehisi Coates 28:20 You know what I mean?

Trevor Noah 28:21 "Why is that?"

Ta-Nehisi Coates 28:22 Which, which every single perpetrator of segregation and Jim Crow says, "I'm so excited about apartheid."

Trevor Noah 28:28 Yeah. No, they said all the-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 28:28 "They have all sorts of good reasons to do it."

Trevor Noah 28:29 For me, well, for me, that's the, that's the parallel-

Christiana 28:32 Mm

Trevor Noah 28:32 ... is like, you know, I, I, I've had this conversation, sometimes argument with some of my friends, you know, some Israeli-born, some just of Jewish descent, and we'll, and we'll talk about this. And, you know, one thing I, I wish people knew more of is how, how broad the spectrum is. For instance, just to what you said now, we had on, you know, one of the other podcast episodes, we had the author of Sapiens and, and Nexus, um, Yuval Noah Harari on.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 28:56 Yes.

Trevor Noah 28:57 And he's like, he said, "I'm a Zionist."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 28:59 Mm.

Trevor Noah 28:59 And he said, "But this is what my definition of Zionism is."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 29:01 Mm.

Trevor Noah 29:01 "It is me believing that Jewish people have a right to exist in a state where-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 29:05 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 29:05 ... they do not have to run away because of their nose and their hair."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 29:07 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 29:07 And I'm paraphrasing that part.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 29:08 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 29:09 But essentially that's what he said.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 29:10 Right.

Trevor Noah 29:10 And then he went on to say, "Israel's committing crimes in Gaza."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 29:13 Mm.

Trevor Noah 29:13 And he said, "In, in the West Bank is even more indefensible 'cause there's not even a boogeyman Hamas to blame it on."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 29:19 Right.

Trevor Noah 29:19 And he said that students should be protesting against the US because in your words, funny enough, he said, "It is America's participation in that specific thing." And when I think about apartheid, uh, like I'll talk to my friends, and I'll be honest, I, I think this is what it is, you know, and I, I think we're all guilty of it at different times. None of us wishes to be labeled something that we can never get out from under, right?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 29:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 29:45 Nobody wants to be called a racist-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 29:48 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 29:48 ... because this is now a, a stain that they wear forever, and there's no coming out from under it.

Christiana 29:53 Mm.

Trevor Noah 29:54 You know? And so if, that's why people are so, in my opinion, people are so afraid of saying, "Oh yeah, that was racist. What I said was racist, what I did wa-," because they're like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I know where this goes."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 30:04 Right.

Christiana 30:05 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 30:05 "I, no, I, I, I know." And I've noticed the same thing in, during apartheid.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 30:09 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 30:10 The, the architects of apartheid were like, "No, no, no. This is not, no, no, no. I'm not racist."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 30:13 Mm.

Trevor Noah 30:13 They're like, "No, we, we do this for the, for the Bantu." And they said that, "You must understand, the Black cannot govern themselves."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 30:21 Jesus.

Trevor Noah 30:21 "The Black does not have the capability to understand-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 30:25 Right

Trevor Noah 30:25 ... governance, and we are protecting them. And we must keep..." And, and then when I talk to my friends In and around Israel-Palestine, I would say to them ... They go like, "Oh, how can you call it a- how can anyone call it apartheid?" And then I'll say, "Okay, let's do it this way. You tell me what's different. I'm just gonna tell you what apartheid was."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 30:41 Right, right, right, right.

Trevor Noah 30:42 "I'm just gonna tell you what it was, and I would like you to tell me where you see a discrepancy."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 30:46 Right.

Trevor Noah 30:47 And I go, "Okay, so in apartheid, your ethnicity determined what your life could be, where you could go, what job you could get, how long you could stay in the major part of the town where the power was held-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 30:56 Yeah

Trevor Noah 30:56 ... you know, where you could move or not move. That's what apartheid did." Then they're like, "Okay, it's like that, but ..." And then I'm like, "No, don't give me reasons. Let's forget reasons for a moment."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 31:04 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 31:04 "Let's just talk about what it was and what it wasn't." And I go, "Apartheid also said that you couldn't vote depending on your ethni- ethnicity." "Well, yes, but, but I, I ..." And I go, "You're my friend. I'm not indicting you. I just want you to tell me how it's different to apartheid."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 31:18 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 31:19 And oftentimes it's ended at, "Yes, there's many similarities, but it's because..."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 31:23 It's because. And it's-

Trevor Noah 31:24 And I go, "I have yet to find a thing that happened in our past that didn't have a because."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 31:29 It's always like that. That, and that, and what I don't think fe- folks realize is that's actually a further indictment. That's actually the ... Because you sound like the thing you think you're not.

Trevor Noah 31:39 Right.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 31:40 Mm-hmm. And you don't know the history of the thing you think you're not well enough to realize how much you actually sound like it.

Trevor Noah 31:47 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 31:47 You know? Um, and so when you say, for instance, you know, the Palestinians have done this, that, you know, suicide bombings, um, you know, terrorist attacks, et cetera, that's real. That's real. And nobody would, like, deny the, the, the pain of that, you know. Um, the problem is the violence of the oppressed is that's always the reason.

Trevor Noah 32:09 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 32:10 That's always the reason, you know? And so, um, you know, I was on a podcast with somebody else, and we were discussing this, and it's like I just gave you that Nat Turner example, right? And I say, "Well, I think killing babies in the crib is wrong. Like, I don't think I could do that, right?" But that doesn't justify slavery.

Trevor Noah 32:27 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 32:27 Yeah. You see what I'm saying? That doesn't make-

Trevor Noah 32:28 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 32:28 Yeah ... that doesn't make the... You know what I mean?

Trevor Noah 32:30 Yeah, the loop.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 32:30 Like, you c- Yeah.

Trevor Noah 32:30 That's where the loop, yes

Ta-Nehisi Coates 32:31 ... you can't say because, you know what I mean?

Trevor Noah 32:32 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 32:32 That therefore justifies. No. No, no, no, no, no. And I, I think, like, this is, like, a, a, a, a principle thing that cannot be gotten past. Either you think there are good reasons for segregation, apartheid, Jim Crow, or you don't. You know what I mean? And in my mind, there is never any reason.

Trevor Noah 32:50 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 32:50 You know, like, my dream of liberation is not, like, enslaving white people. That would be wrong. Mm-hmm. Like, I oppose enslavement. You know, I use the death penalty example all the time. I am opposed to the death penalty. There is no because for me for the death penalty. Mm-hmm. There is no, you know, he's a serial killer, killed 30 people. Yeah. No, I'm against it.

Trevor Noah 33:08 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 33:08 Yeah. I'm against it for Dylann Roof. Like, I'm against it. There's no because for me. Mm-hmm. You know? And I think we all have those things. It's just the fact, the bare truth of it is some of us do not have those things for apartheid. That's just the truth. Some people think... And that is scary for me as a Black person, because now I know who I'm talking to. Because you would do that to me if there was a because.

Trevor Noah 33:30 You know, we can't imagine ourselves that way, or we can't imagine ourselves doing the worst or, you know.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 33:36 Mm.

Trevor Noah 33:37 It's interesting that we understand it fundamentally as humans, but then when it comes to practicing it, our fear takes over. Do you know what I mean?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 33:44 Yes. Yes.

Trevor Noah 33:44 Because, uh, I, like, I remember getting into a, a passionate argument with a friend of mine around Israel-Palestine, and he was like, "But Trevor, what, what, what do you want us to do? And you know that Hamas is trying to kill us, and these, we think these other countries around us wanna kill us, and what, like, what, what do you want us to do?" And I was like, "Well, I want you to not kill babies. I want you to not kill children."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 34:02 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 34:02 And he was like, "No, I, but we don't want to, and we, you gotta understand where Israel's coming-" I was like, "Yeah, no, no, I'm not saying that." And then I said to him something that I truly believe, but I don't know, again, 'cause I haven't been fully tested.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 34:13 Yeah. Mm.

Trevor Noah 34:14 I don't know that I would be able to exercise it, and maybe even we are... I said, "You know what it is? It's the burden of the good guy."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 34:22 Mm.

Trevor Noah 34:23 When you watch a movie, you watch a James Bond movie, right? For all his flaws, you watch James Bond. James Bond is pursuing one of the villains. They've got, like, a vial that's gonna-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 34:34 Mm

Trevor Noah 34:34 ... kill the whole world.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 34:35 Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 34:35 Some virus. The bad guy gets to drive through a crowded market-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 34:40 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 34:40 ... crushing everyone who's in it-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 34:42 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 34:42 ... and not give a damn. James Bond has to stop, has to go around people.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 34:46 Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 34:46 If a woman is thrown, he has to catch her. If a child falls, he has to stop. He-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 34:50 Yeah. Right

Trevor Noah 34:51 ... Superman, oh, man, I wanna go after G- Zod, but the building is falling.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 34:55 Mm.

Trevor Noah 34:55 So I have to stop the building from falling because while I'm trying to beat Zod, the building is full of people, and my mission is to save people.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 35:02 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 35:02 And so I cannot let the people die in my fight with Zod-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 35:05 Yeah

Trevor Noah 35:05 ... just because I'm trying to get Zod.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 35:06 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 35:06 And I... Do you know what I mean?

Trevor Noah 35:07 I keep going, I'm like, man, we-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 35:09 I do. Of course, the, the-

Trevor Noah 35:09 ... we understand it on, like, a-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 35:11 Yeah

Trevor Noah 35:11 ... on a, on a hypothetical-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 35:13 Yeah

Trevor Noah 35:13 ... moral level when we watch it.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 35:15 Right, right.

Trevor Noah 35:15 But when we're tested, very few of us pass that test to get-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 35:18 The o-

Trevor Noah 35:18 ... beyond our fear.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 35:19 Yeah. The other thing is, like, the building is filled with people who are not you.

Trevor Noah 35:23 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 35:23 Mm. You know what I mean? So then it's like, [laughs] you know, how can you have empathy beyond your-

Trevor Noah 35:28 Oh, damn

Ta-Nehisi Coates 35:28 ... beyond yourself. Which I, I just think, I don't know, man, like, one of the things that I was, I thought a lot about there was, um, the Israelis I spoke to, they spoke in terms of survival, right?

Trevor Noah 35:40 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 35:40 Which is actually, and that's why I started with Yad Vashem, which is, I mean, when you have faced, you know, real existential violence, you know, you st- might would start to think of things in those sorts of terms. But equally interesting was, like, the story they told about that survival, not all of them, but one of the more popular versions of it, um, which holds that they went like lambs to the slaughter, like, that there was no real-

Trevor Noah 36:05 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 36:05 ... resistance.

Trevor Noah 36:06 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 36:06 And, you know, and so it's a kind of, like, not just I won't let genocide happen again, but next time I'm, you know, I'm gonna go out-

Trevor Noah 36:15 Mm-hmm

Ta-Nehisi Coates 36:15 ... you know, fighting. I don't think that story is particularly accurate. I don't think that version of it, that just, it doesn't correspond with how oppressed people act under systems ever, you know, any human being, you know, ever. But I think also beyond that, it's like, um, what is life for? You know? Like, what, what is, what is, what is living for? What is, what is, like, what you're trying to survive for what?

Trevor Noah 36:40 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 36:40 You know? Um, and if, and like you say, you haven't been tested, so I don't, like, I agree. I don't wanna speak for anybody else, but I don't know, if my life depends on daily killing babies, I mean, I might jump off a building myself.

Trevor Noah 36:55 Right.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 36:56 Because I don't know what my life is then. Like, I don't, I don't know that I have a life worth living myself. Like, when I think about that, when I try to do that thought experiment, like, I feel like I've, like, somehow lost ... Like, is it just oxygen?

Trevor Noah 37:06 Like, you've lost the reason.

Christiana 37:07 No, but in the book-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 37:07 Yeah, the reason

Christiana 37:07 ... I think you answer it when you talk about the parallels between the dehumanization of Black people-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 37:14 Uh-huh

Christiana 37:14 ... and the dehumanizations of Arab and Brown people.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 37:16 Yeah.

Christiana 37:17 When you no longer see the humanity in these people, I think you can do anything, right?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 37:22 Right. But what about, like, um, your own humanity?

Christiana 37:26 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 37:26 Like-

Christiana 37:26 Well, you're losing your own humanity by the act-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 37:28 Yeah. Right

Christiana 37:28 ... which is, I think, the sadness in all of it.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 37:30 I, I think there's a lot-

Trevor Noah 37:30 I don't know. I would, I would challenge that, funny enough.

Christiana 37:32 Yeah?

Trevor Noah 37:32 I actually think it's, it's the first part, and it's what you said. I don't think many of the people are forced to, they're not challenging, we are not challenging our humanity because we've made it numbers, because we've made it statistics.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 37:43 Got it.

Christiana 37:43 Mm.

Trevor Noah 37:43 And you talk about this in the book.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 37:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 37:45 We d- Go read, if you go read, like, the articles, and I, I think I'm really happy that Gen Z has been as on this as they have on, like, TikTok, on Twitter, on all of it.

Christiana 37:54 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 37:54 You now see, with a real clear lens, how the media tells the stories about what's happening in the Middle East. They will say, you know, a family killed in Tel Aviv.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 38:04 Right.

Trevor Noah 38:04 A, you know, a group.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 38:05 Right.

Trevor Noah 38:05 They'll, they'll make it human, and on the other side, they'll go, "60 Palestinians."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 38:09 Right.

Christiana 38:10 Mm.

Trevor Noah 38:10 But Palestinians is not a thing.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 38:11 Right.

Christiana 38:11 Mm.

Trevor Noah 38:11 They're not humans.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 38:13 Right. Right.

Trevor Noah 38:13 Do you know what I mean? A Palestinian is not a ... Like, when you think of it, if you take that word, you should remove it and just write humans, children, humans, children.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 38:20 Yeah.

Christiana 38:20 Mm.

Trevor Noah 38:20 I don't think anyone, to borrow your words from the book, would be able to grapple with that constant toll-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 38:25 Yeah

Trevor Noah 38:25 ... and pain.

Christiana 38:26 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 38:26 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 38:27 Because we'd be like, "Whoa, how many humans and how many children and how many people?" And, and I think that's actually what it is, is throughout history, even if we zoom out from the conflict in the Middle East, what we've been very good at doing as a species, you know, through a few people who have assumed power, is they've managed to dehumanize the people that it's happening to-

Christiana 38:47 Mm

Trevor Noah 38:48 ... so that we don't have to question our humanity.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 38:50 Yeah.

Christiana 38:50 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 38:50 So when the US drones a part of the Middle East where it's a wedding or... No, no-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 38:54 Right

Trevor Noah 38:54 ... it's collateral damage.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 38:55 Right.

Trevor Noah 38:55 Insurgents.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 38:56 Right.

Christiana 38:56 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 38:56 Right.

Trevor Noah 38:57 We got the ... But collateral damage is not people.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 38:59 Yeah.

Christiana 39:00 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 39:00 You get what I'm saying? It's not torture, it's enhanced interrogation.

Trevor Noah 39:02 Exactly.

Christiana 39:02 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 39:02 Uh-huh. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 39:02 And that, and that I think-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 39:03 That's right

Trevor Noah 39:04 ... is actually it. [upbeat music] Don't go anywhere, 'cause we got more What Now? after this. [upbeat music]

Christiana 39:15 It's interesting because when you go to South Carolina-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 39:18 Mm-hmm

Christiana 39:19 ... you go to this kind of school board meeting and where people are defending-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 39:23 Yeah

Christiana 39:23 ... this teacher called Mary. They're trying to ban your book-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 39:26 Yeah

Christiana 39:26 ... basically.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 39:27 Yeah.

Christiana 39:27 And it's interesting to me that you will say, "How can they do that to me as a Black person?" Or as a really prolific Black author.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 39:33 Mm-hmm.

Christiana 39:33 There is this movement to ensure that children don't read your book-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 39:38 Yeah

Christiana 39:38 ... because they don't want the widening of the, their imagination, their aperture.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 39:42 Yeah.

Christiana 39:42 So how did it feel actually living through that? 'Cause it felt that, like, you were more burdened by what you saw in Israel and Palestine, but you were more personally impacted by what was actually happening in South Carolina, kind of like in your backyard.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 39:57 Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. Why was I not more burdened by South Carolina? It probably is the fact that this is less of a threat to me than it is-

Christiana 40:06 Mm

Ta-Nehisi Coates 40:06 ... to the students and the parents, and it, like, I, I didn't really feel-

Trevor Noah 40:09 Right.

Christiana 40:09 Yeah, yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 40:10 ... like, between the world and me, it's gonna be fine.

Christiana 40:12 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 40:12 You know? So, um, I probably felt it less personally. Maybe some of it also was the fact that it was ... Like, I gotta tell you, this was a little weird, right?

Christiana 40:20 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 40:20 Because it was really white self-interest that I was observing.

Christiana 40:25 [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 40:26 And I mean that actually in the best way, right?

Christiana 40:27 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 40:28 Because look, like, like all people, you know what I mean? These white parents down here, they want their kids to have a, a first-class education.

Trevor Noah 40:35 Mm-hmm.

Christiana 40:36 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 40:36 They want them to be able to go out in the world, in the world. They don't want people mocking them and laughing at them, and-

Christiana 40:40 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 40:40 ... you know? And to them, it's like, book banning? Like, I'm gonna have to send my kid out into the world and, like, I come from a district where they ban books.

Trevor Noah 40:51 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 40:51 Like, they, you know, obviously have enough sense to realize that is not how you raise a worldly kid with, you know-

Christiana 40:59 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 40:59 ... expectations. Like, these were kids in an AP English class, right? [laughs] So they're trying to get credit to-

Christiana 41:05 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 41:05 ... get ahead in the university, you know? And it's like, this is, like, barbaric, you know what I mean? What, what, what we're talking about here. And so when I say self-interest, I mean, they might not even have my politics.

Christiana 41:17 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 41:17 But they recognize that part of a first-rate education is reading different things, taking things from different ... Like, like, it was kind of that recognition of that value. It's not, "We completely and totally agree with, with Ta-Nehisi Coates," you know what I mean? It's just, we want our kids to have a, a, you know, a relatively high-level education.

Christiana 41:33 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 41:34 You know? Um, and you know, as I say in the book, I mean, you can mock that. You can laugh at that. But, um, there are not too many freedom struggles that have been advanced without, you know, some group of people from the majority seeing that interest-

Trevor Noah 41:46 Yeah.

Christiana 41:47 Mm-hmm

Ta-Nehisi Coates 41:47 ... you know, in, you know-

Christiana 41:48 Yeah, for sure

Ta-Nehisi Coates 41:48 ... there, too. So I was fine with it.

Christiana 41:50 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 41:50 I wanna say s- say one, something really quickly, and I have to remind myself to say this all the time, um, as I talk about this. I was talking before about my sympathy, like how I was reading the documents and everything, and I, and I felt, you know, like, the similarity. In reference to that, I get how hard it might be if you are Jewish and you're trying to reckon with this stuff. You know what I mean? That was the other reason why it was kind of written the way it was.

Trevor Noah 42:16 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 42:16 Because, um, man, you know, and I have some exposure to this in other ways, but I won't make this about me. It, I can imagine it is great, it is really, really difficult to be within a system. I saw it with my own eyes, actually, um, within a system that tells you you're, you're noble, that tells you what you're doing is correct, that tells you you are within the tradition of people who have been correct, within a movement that is correct. And somebody is telling you, "No, you're actually sticking your foot on people's throat."

Christiana 42:43 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 42:45 That's hard to take.

Christiana 42:46 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 42:46 You know? That, that, that, that's-

Christiana 42:47 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 42:47 It doesn't mean it shouldn't be said, by the way. It should be said.

Trevor Noah 42:49 No, no, no, I hear you.

Christiana 42:50 Yeah, but to de- deconstruct, like, the core of your identity-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 42:53 Yes

Christiana 42:53 ... that way.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 42:54 But I-

Christiana 42:54 'Cause when you do it, what's left to start, you know?

Trevor Noah 42:55 Well, there, there, there are two stories. Well, one, one less, one lesser story, but I, I don't know if you remember when, um, World Central Kitchen, José Andrés-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 43:05 Yeah.

Christiana 43:06 Mm.

Trevor Noah 43:06 You know what, they, they, I mean, he does an amazing job. He's all over the world, and he just feeds people. And it, it seems like such a simple mission, but what he does with his organization is there's a devastation anywhere in the world, from natural disaster, from war, you name it, he gets in there, and he gets in there faster than most, like, giant organizations, and he just feeds people.

Christiana 43:26 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 43:27 From Haiti to Florida, from Gaza to Syria-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 43:30 Mm

Trevor Noah 43:30 ... he gets in there and he feeds people. And one of the more tragic stories that came out of the, the Israel-Palestine conflict was, um, I think it was seven of the Cen-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 43:39 Yeah

Trevor Noah 43:39 ... World Central Kitchen people-

Christiana 43:40 Mm

Trevor Noah 43:40 ... being killed in a, in a strike. And you know, there's been all these reports and then, like, the Israel government said, oh, it was, like, rogue, sort of like some soldiers in the ranks who weren't supposed to be doing something, they went against orders. And i- it's muddled, so I won't, you know, put my foot anywhere in particular-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 43:53 Right

Trevor Noah 43:53 ... 'cause I keep reading new things about it. But what was most interesting for me was seeing that he got interviewed afterwards by, he got Haaretz, you know, in, in Israel. They, they, they did, like, a almost full page spread on, on him, like, an interview, and then he was on, I think it's Channel 12 in, um, in Israel. And I saw multiple people online when that was happening saying, and I- it seemed completely earnest to me, they said, "This is the first time I have seen a story saying anything about what's happening in Gaza-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 44:27 Yeah

Trevor Noah 44:28 ... from inside Israel."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 44:29 Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 44:30 And I saw multiple people saying that.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 44:32 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 44:33 Multiple people saying, "I, I wasn't hearing this. I wasn't seeing this. I wasn't..." And, and in a way I think, you know, I think of what you talk about in your book, you know, when you, when you talk about the importance of being a storyteller, the responsibility that writers bear, the obligation that you have when you're putting words on a page. Because I think about how powerful it is to be able to craft a story or a narrative for people. You know, one of the key things I hear from many white South Africans, some could be lying, but I, I think genuinely when I talk to them, many of them aren't, they'll tell me straight up, they go, "Trevor, I didn't know."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 45:08 I think that's probably true.

Trevor Noah 45:08 And I, and I'm like, "What do you mean you didn't know?"

Christiana 45:09 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 45:09 I think that's probably true.

Trevor Noah 45:09 And they go like, "Trevor," they go, "Nobody knew what was happening."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 45:12 I think that's probably true.

Trevor Noah 45:12 And I'm like, "How could you not know what was happening in apartheid?"

Christiana 45:14 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 45:14 And they say, "Remember, we had the national broadcaster."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 45:17 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 45:17 "They broadcast what we, we watch."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 45:19 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 45:19 "We weren't getting international stuff. It was banned."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 45:21 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 45:21 "You weren't getting music from America that was anything like Sugar Man-"

Ta-Nehisi Coates 45:24 Right

Trevor Noah 45:24 "... and all these songs that question. No, we weren't getting anything." So our reality was shaped by the government.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 45:31 Mm.

Trevor Noah 45:31 And if your reality is shaped, you almost have to be like Neo to escape.

Christiana 45:36 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 45:36 You really gotta do something.

Trevor Noah 45:37 You think, 'cause I always think about that-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 45:38 You really have to do something

Trevor Noah 45:38 ... you know, on, on, on that level I go, forget who's a good person and who's a bad person. Think about what kind of person you have to be to say, "Everything in my reality makes sense, but I'm gonna question it."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 45:49 Yeah.

Christiana 45:50 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 45:50 Do, do, do you know what I mean?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 45:51 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 45:51 And I think about how many Israelis don't get, like, the story on all sides. I think about how many South Africans didn't get the story of apartheid. They were just told, yeah, they were even told that Black people loved living there, by the way.

Christiana 46:02 Mm.

Trevor Noah 46:02 They were like, "No, this is great. They're loving it. They love how they live." And, and then they would show, "Look at the violence," or, "The ANC's trying to disrupt this thing. They're trying to blow everything up. We've created a working system."

Christiana 46:11 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 46:11 "Everyone is happy."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 46:12 Mm-hmm.

Christiana 46:13 Mm.

Trevor Noah 46:13 And maybe, you know, it's a question I have to you then as, as, as a writer is, like, how do you, how do you escape that? How do you even begin the journey of puncturing your reality?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 46:25 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 46:25 Do you know what I mean? You know, I think it's important everyone who listens to this understands that the book as a whole, it's not, if you think it's Israel-Palestine, it's not. That's the, the most contentious issue right now.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 46:35 Right.

Trevor Noah 46:36 But the, the part of the book where you're going into Senegal, for me is, like, you having to puncture a reality.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 46:43 Mm-hmm.

Christiana 46:44 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 46:44 You having to now see Africans as human beings-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 46:47 Right

Trevor Noah 46:47 ... who don't just exist as numbers, who don't, it's not just the beginning of a slave trade.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 46:51 Right.

Christiana 46:51 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 46:52 Oh, it's people.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 46:52 Right. It, it actually started back when I was in college because when I, when I went to Howard, I was in a history department where they were very scholarly, and it was like all of this stuff about, like, they, they came and kidnapped us, and we were kings. They had no tolerance for any of that. And it was extremely disruptive of, of my concept of what Africa was and what it meant for me. And I finally, you know, went over myself, and, um, I think, you know what's interesting, so I think by then I had let go of a lot of stuff, right? And I say that I'm still in process because even as, as I was walking down the street, I, I really do think I was, the, the film was still over my eyes, and I'll give you an example. I would just, like, repeatedly remark on the beauty of the Senegalese people, right?

Christiana 47:34 They're very beautiful.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 47:35 But-

Christiana 47:36 We have to say that. [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 47:36 Okay, okay, but I have a question about that.

Christiana 47:38 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 47:38 I have a question about that.

Christiana 47:39 Yeah, go on. Let's do it. [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 47:40 Is it that... No, they are. They are.

Christiana 47:42 [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 47:43 But is it that, or is it also the fact, and I'm speaking as an African American maybe here-

Christiana 47:48 Mm

Ta-Nehisi Coates 47:48 ... that you grow up under all of this stuff telling you you're ugly-

Christiana 47:53 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 47:53 ... you're unattractive, your nose is too big, your lips are too big-

Christiana 47:55 Absolutely, yeah. I understand what you're saying

Ta-Nehisi Coates 47:56 ... your hair is, like, all that, and then you go and you're like-

Christiana 47:59 These are stunning people

Ta-Nehisi Coates 47:59 ... these are stunning people.

Christiana 48:01 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 48:01 And you see them, and they're the coolest people in the world, too.

Christiana 48:03 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 48:03 Like, they're smooth and you know what I mean?

Christiana 48:06 The style.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 48:06 Their style.

Christiana 48:07 Right.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 48:07 And it's like, what? You know what I mean? And so I, but I, I am trying to, I guess, comprehend how much of that is me looking at them through this, you know what I mean, trying to escape, like, what I've been told here, and how much of that is the reality of it. You know?

Christiana 48:21 You mentioned the ideology niggerology.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 48:23 Yes, yes.

Christiana 48:23 Which I couldn't, couldn't get over that even existed.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 48:25 Yes.

Christiana 48:25 I know it existed-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 48:27 Yeah

Christiana 48:27 ... in an abstract-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 48:28 Right

Christiana 48:28 ... but this real way of thinking.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 48:30 Yes.

Christiana 48:30 And you were like, "Have I been somehow tainted by that-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 48:34 Yeah

Christiana 48:34 ... that I'm surprised by the humanity-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 48:35 Oh, that was the worst part

Christiana 48:36 ... of other Afri-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 48:37 That was the worst part

Christiana 48:38 ... just the way they live. And then-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 48:39 No, it was, um, that was So I think, like, yes, you know what I mean?

Christiana 48:44 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 48:44 I obviously did bring it with me.

Christiana 48:45 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 48:45 Like, that's just the truth of it. And the fact of the matter is all of the work I had done to escape it, you know what I mean, I don't know if you ever get out of it.

Christiana 48:54 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 48:54 Um, the second thing was, like, I had read all of this scholarship about how the door of no return is bullshit, it's not real, not that many people went through.

Christiana 49:03 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 49:03 Gorée, you know, ain't this and Gorée ain't that. And I'm gonna tell you, when that boat pulled off, I lost it.

Christiana 49:09 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 49:09 Hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 49:10 Even knowing. Even knowing.

Christiana 49:11 You feel, you feel something, yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 49:12 Yes. Even knowing this is BS. Like, like empirically this is not what they said it was, you know what I mean? And so what does it mean that even after, you know, you deconstruct all of this stuff that is myth and is, and is not real, like, some of this stuff still has a hold on you.

Trevor Noah 49:29 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 49:29 I mean, how would there be... You know, evenings when I would sit with two of the people I talk about in, in the book, Amadou and, and Hanada, and it's like we have this whole conversation about who's mixed and who's not-

Christiana 49:39 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 49:39 ... and all of that sort of thing, right? But see, the fact of the matter is while some people might fi- find that con- conversation hurtful, we had to have some kinship to even joke like that.

Trevor Noah 49:50 Yeah.

Christiana 49:50 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 49:50 Like, you don't just say that to people.

Christiana 49:52 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 49:52 You know what I mean? Like, you gotta have... Like, there has to be something there-

Christiana 49:54 You're still kin. [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 49:55 Right, right.

Trevor Noah 49:56 Yes.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 49:56 You have to. You have to.

Trevor Noah 49:57 Yeah.

Christiana 49:57 Yeah. It's like cousins ribbing each other.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 49:58 'Cause that can be quite rude if it's not.

Christiana 49:59 Yeah, yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 49:59 Yes, exactly, it's like cousins ribbing each other. But why are we cousins again?

Christiana 50:03 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 50:03 [laughs] Damn.

Christiana 50:04 But it was like when they-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:05 You know what I mean? But why? I mean, we are.

Christiana 50:06 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:06 I, I, I feel it. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 50:07 Yeah.

Christiana 50:07 Yeah, no, I feel you.

Trevor Noah 50:09 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:09 You know what I mean?

Christiana 50:10 I feel you.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:10 But what? You know, so-

Christiana 50:11 When you mentioned how, like, kinda grieved you were by them saying, "You know, the women out here, they bleach and they change their hair-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:18 Oh, boy, that hurt

Christiana 50:18 ... because they wanna look like African-Americans."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:21 That hurt.

Christiana 50:21 It se- seemed like that really sat with you.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:23 Yes.

Christiana 50:23 You were like, "Okay, now what has happened here?"

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:25 Yeah.

Christiana 50:25 That it was so meta that you couldn't really process it.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:28 Because this is at the same time as I'm doing, "You're so beaut..." Like, I'm doing that.

Christiana 50:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:31 Like, why would you wanna look like us? Like, why would you?

Christiana 50:34 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:34 And then, you know, the other thing is, and I don't know if this is where you're going, I might have cut you off.

Christiana 50:37 No, no, go for it.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:38 But we look the way we look because rape is an indelible part of the experience of enslavement.

Christiana 50:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 50:45 Hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:46 You know what I mean? Like, it's ins-

Christiana 50:47 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:47 ... it's not a gift.

Christiana 50:48 Yeah, systemic sexual assault.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:50 Right, right.

Christiana 50:51 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:51 That's, that's why, you know, it is the way it is.

Christiana 50:53 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:54 And so... And it's, it's a... it's actually a marker, you know, in that way of our, of our division.

Christiana 50:59 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 50:59 You know what I mean? In the way that we were kind of very much like, like, as Nikole Hannah-Jones says, you know, like born on the water.

Christiana 51:04 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:04 Like, that was like, you know, what we were there was stripped away, taken, and then something out of what was left of that and, you know, what we got here forcibly, you know, became who we are.

Christiana 51:15 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:15 You know? And, um, I mean, that's probably even tied to the why are we cousins thing, you know what I mean?

Christiana 51:20 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:20 Because it's like what are we? Like, what-

Christiana 51:21 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:21 ... like, what, what... Like, what? Like, what are we, you know?

Christiana 51:23 It did feel like in Dakar that you experienced some sort of psychic shift. And I don't wanna make it-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:28 Yeah

Christiana 51:28 ... tropey, 'cause that's the whole thing of like-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:29 No, no, no, it's okay

Christiana 51:30 ... the African-American-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:31 Yeah

Christiana 51:31 ... either abroad in France- [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:33 Right, right, right, right, right, right, right.

Trevor Noah 51:34 [laughs]

Christiana 51:34 ... writing a book.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:35 Right, which I've done.

Christiana 51:36 Or... Yeah, which you've done.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:37 Which I've done.

Christiana 51:38 In the James Bal-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:38 I wrote some of this book in France.

Christiana 51:39 In the James Baldwin tradition.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:41 Right, right, right, right. [laughs]

Christiana 51:41 Or it's like going to some place in West Africa-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:44 Yeah

Christiana 51:44 ... and feeling something. And you do mention the ancestors a lot, which I-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:47 Yeah

Christiana 51:48 ... which means we're cousins, 'cause, you know-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:49 Right, right

Christiana 51:49 ... we mention the ancestors, too.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:50 Right, right, right, right, right.

Christiana 51:51 But you're like, you know, part of... I, I'm paraphrasing, but part of your writing and the tradition you're in is like-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:57 Mm-hmm

Christiana 51:57 ... veneration of the an- ancestry.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 51:58 Yeah.

Christiana 51:59 So they're speaking to you and through you.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 52:00 Yes, yes.

Christiana 52:01 But it felt like, with the Israel-Palestine thing, it felt like you had come to a personal conclusion based on your morality, on your feeling about the human experience.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 52:10 Mm-hmm.

Christiana 52:10 But you come out of Senegal kinda s- still grappling.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 52:15 Yeah, no doubt.

Christiana 52:15 And I wonder why-

Trevor Noah 52:17 Yeah

Christiana 52:17 ... why is that? Did it not feel like home enough, or did it feel like home? Like, what was that confusion? And there was, there was an underlying tension there that I didn't-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 52:25 What, what was that confusion?

Christiana 52:25 ... feel anywhere else in the book.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 52:26 I think it's the what are we.

Christiana 52:28 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 52:28 I think I never figured out the what are we. I know what the feeling is, but I can't... I couldn't... I never figured out-

Christiana 52:32 What are we to each other, or just-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 52:33 Yes, what are we to each other?

Trevor Noah 52:34 Hmm.

Christiana 52:35 I feel like we're kin.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 52:36 Yeah. And I felt like-

Trevor Noah 52:37 Yeah, I think-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 52:37 I, I felt that, but I c- I couldn't put it into words.

Christiana 52:40 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 52:40 Like, I couldn't quite name it, you know? And, and I guess that's understandable. That was my first trip there. Again, a lot of that was about, you know, grieving a- and being, you know, African-American. And, like, I think about... Like, I spent so much time by the water, and I think about, like, watching... And I talk about this in the book, like, these little Black boys surf. I don't think I've ever in my life seen Black boys surf-

Christiana 53:03 Mm.

Trevor Noah 53:03 Damn

Ta-Nehisi Coates 53:04 ... until I went to Senegal.

Christiana 53:05 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 53:05 And they were doing it like it was the most natural thing in the world.

Trevor Noah 53:07 Yeah, yeah.

Christiana 53:07 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 53:07 Like, like, what do you mean?

Trevor Noah 53:08 'Cause it is, yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 53:08 'Cause it is.

Christiana 53:09 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 53:09 'Cause it is.

Trevor Noah 53:10 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 53:10 You know what I mean? And it, it really struck me in this really, really kind of, you know, beautiful way. And I think it probably will take a few more trips-

Christiana 53:19 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 53:19 ... until I'm, like, not amazed by that.

Christiana 53:21 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 53:22 You know what I mean? And then I can, you know, figure out, like, what that kin is and, and what it means and everything.

Trevor Noah 53:26 It's funny. I, I think of just the differing experiences. You know, what you're sharing now reminds me of, um, when Ryan Coogler, the director of Black Panther-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 53:35 Yes

Trevor Noah 53:35 ... and Fruitvale, amazing, amazing director. He was, he was going to South Africa to do research for, um, Black Panther, right? And-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 53:41 Oh, he directed you. I just-

Trevor Noah 53:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Christiana 53:43 [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 53:43 Well, none of you... That's a good friend of mine. That's why I saw him, seeing you, I'm like, "Hey." [laughs]

Trevor Noah 53:47 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so, so Ryan reaches out to me, says, "Hey, I'm going to South Africa. Can you help me out?" I was like, "Yeah, I'd love to." And so I said, "Ryan, let me, let me hook you up with my people, people."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 53:56 Yes, yes.

Trevor Noah 53:56 Not tour guides.

Christiana 53:57 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 53:58 Not like-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 53:58 Yeah

Trevor Noah 53:58 ... no, I want you to... I just want you to be with people.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 54:00 That's what he said. He said he was in it.

Trevor Noah 54:02 Yeah. And so Ryan goes to South Africa, and I'll never forget, one of my best friends was with him, and they're walking around in Soweto. And Ryan's walking around, and he has like a... My friend described it to me. He's like, he's like, "Hey, Trevor." He's like, "Ah, man, this guy, he... Man, he's edgy, man."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 54:16 [laughs]

Christiana 54:16 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 54:16 "He's edgy. He's edgy." He's like, "This guy's edgy." And I'm like, "What do you mean?" He's like, "Ah, man, I don't know. He's, every time we turn a corner, it's like he expects something to happen."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 54:24 Yes.

Christiana 54:25 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 54:25 Yes, yes, yes.

Trevor Noah 54:25 "He's edgy, man. He's edgy." And I was like, "What do you mean?" And, and then, and then they tell me the most beautiful story, and Ryan, Ryan tell- told it to me, and so did my friend from a different perspective. But he says they're walking around, they walk around, they walk around. And I don't know if this was day one or day two, but Ryan stops and his shoulders relax.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 54:42 Mm.

Trevor Noah 54:43 And he starts to cry a little bit.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 54:45 Mm. Mm.

Trevor Noah 54:45 And my friend's like, "Yo, is, is everything okay? What"

Ta-Nehisi Coates 54:47 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 54:48 And Ryan goes I've never felt this feeling before.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 54:51 Mm.

Trevor Noah 54:52 I have never seen Blackness expressed in its full-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 54:59 Right

Trevor Noah 54:59 ... like range.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 55:00 Right.

Trevor Noah 55:00 Like, you know, it's like w- where Black isn't defined by something or not something.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 55:04 Yes. Yes.

Trevor Noah 55:04 Like no one looking at you because you are Black.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 55:06 Right.

Christiana 55:06 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 55:06 It might be because of your sneakers or your T-shirt-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 55:08 Right, right, right

Trevor Noah 55:08 ... but not because... And you're not out, you're not in, you're not, you're not...

Ta-Nehisi Coates 55:11 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 55:11 You know, it, it, it was a weird... It's a feeling that I can't imagine because I d- I, I can't imagine, because I was lucky enough to grow up in South Africa-

Christiana 55:17 Yeah

Trevor Noah 55:17 ... in that, in a Xhosa family-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 55:19 Yeah

Trevor Noah 55:19 ... in Soweto.

Christiana 55:20 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 55:20 Yes.

Trevor Noah 55:20 And I'm like, okay.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 55:21 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 55:21 But when he described it, it was the most poetic thing. What a gift it is to be able to see yourself as everything-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 55:30 Yeah

Trevor Noah 55:30 ... and anything.

Christiana 55:31 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 55:31 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 55:32 You know?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 55:32 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 55:32 And I think that's, that... When I'm listening to you-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 55:34 Yeah

Trevor Noah 55:34 ... and even when you read it in the book, I feel you moving through. It's almo- well, let-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 55:39 I wanna question that a little bit, though.

Trevor Noah 55:40 Yeah, yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 55:41 And the reason why I wanna question that is that's what I th- thought, and maybe it's still true, but when that sister tole- told me about the bleaching and everything-

Trevor Noah 55:50 Yeah

Christiana 55:50 Mm-hmm

Ta-Nehisi Coates 55:50 ... so what is... Like where is that-

Trevor Noah 55:52 So, okay, this, this is my theory

Ta-Nehisi Coates 55:53 ... what is that? Okay.

Trevor Noah 55:53 This is my theory. Oftentimes, we, we look to those who we think have, like, figured it out-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 56:01 Uh-huh

Trevor Noah 56:01 ... and have found... Like w- we look to those who inspire us, is the easiest way to put it, right? I know this personally, growing up in South Africa. Many of us looked at African Americans, and we were like, "Yo, that is it."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 56:12 Ah.

Trevor Noah 56:12 I mean, I look at the struggle in South Africa, the Nelson Mandelas, the Winnie Mandelas, the, you know, the Oliver Tambos of-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 56:17 But why would you do that if you have the range of humanity right in front of you, though?

Trevor Noah 56:19 No, no, no, because what you're seeing is a glimpse. What you're seeing is a moment.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 56:23 Uh-huh.

Trevor Noah 56:24 D- does this make sense? I, I could be wrong, because I'm not a scholar in this, but I, I do think in some ways it's because while there is still a struggle, it's not the same struggle.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 56:36 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 56:36 And so it sort of-

Christiana 56:37 Yeah

Trevor Noah 56:37 ... it sort of feels freeing in a different way.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 56:39 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 56:39 And it sort of-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 56:40 Mm

Trevor Noah 56:40 ... it makes me aspire to you in another way.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 56:42 Mm.

Trevor Noah 56:42 You know? So, like, I remember first few weeks we were in New York, me, Joe Opio from Uganda-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 56:47 Mm

Trevor Noah 56:47 ... David-

Christiana 56:47 Mm

Trevor Noah 56:47 ... friend of ours, also from Uganda, but South African.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 56:50 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 56:50 We're walking through the streets of New York, we're coming back from a soccer match, cops pull us over. Mind you, I was the host of The Daily Show at this point. They pulled us over, it was, like, on, uh, 11th Avenue and maybe just into the teens now. Cop pulls us over. We're carrying our, our sports equip- we're d- dressed in our sports gear. Cop goes, "Hey, where you guys coming from?"

Ta-Nehisi Coates 57:07 Mm.

Trevor Noah 57:07 And we're like, "Oh, we're coming from, uh, a soccer game." And he's like, "Where you going?" We're like, "Oh, we're going home. We, we live uptown." He's like, "You walking?" We're like, "Yeah, we're walking." He's like, "It's midnight." We're like, "Yeah, I mean, the game ends at midnight." He's like, "You guys were playing soccer now?" We're like, "Yeah." He's like, "Do you mind if I search your bags?" We're like, "No, go ahead." And he searches them. And we're standing there, you know, like, a- against the car, and he's searching.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 57:27 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 57:28 And I can't explain this to you. We could not have been more relaxed.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 57:32 Wow.

Trevor Noah 57:33 And this all happened, and then we're done, and we're like, "All right, have a good night, officer," and then we carried on. And you know Joe, and we carry, and now we carried on talking about the game. Joe was like, "No, Trevor, you have to pass the ball in the middle."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 57:41 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 57:41 "No, Trevor, the thing is..." And then I paused us, I think, like, two blocks up, I paused us and I said, "Guys, guys, guys. Do you realize what just happened there?"

Ta-Nehisi Coates 57:48 Yeah.

Christiana 57:48 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 57:49 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 57:49 And they were like, "Oh, yeah, we got stopped." But... And I was like, "No, but because we haven't lived in this experience for that long-"

Ta-Nehisi Coates 57:55 Yeah

Trevor Noah 57:55 ... that to us, we treated and felt differently about.

Christiana 57:58 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 57:58 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 57:58 Because to us, that wasn't our... Like, police weren't our struggle in that way.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 58:02 Right.

Trevor Noah 58:03 So we were just like-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 58:04 Right

Trevor Noah 58:04 ... "Oh, yeah, sometimes the cops need to search you," you know?

Christiana 58:05 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 58:05 And we just keep it moving.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 58:06 Yeah.

Christiana 58:07 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 58:07 That's why I say it's, it's not a scholarly answer, but I sometimes feel like it's like w- you aspire to a thing that's fixed in another world, and it seems like an answer in another.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 58:14 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 58:14 And yours seems more layered and more complex-

Christiana 58:16 I-

Trevor Noah 58:16 ... and more difficult.

Christiana 58:17 So I have a view on bleaching, and I would encourage everyone to read the work of Professor Yaba Blay-

Trevor Noah 58:23 Okay

Christiana 58:23 ... who's done really great work on, like, West African communities in the diaspora-

Trevor Noah 58:27 Mm-hmm

Christiana 58:27 ... and in, like, the Black diaspora and bleaching, whether it's Jamaica-

Trevor Noah 58:30 Mm

Christiana 58:30 ... Nigeria, et cetera, et cetera.

Trevor Noah 58:32 Mm.

Christiana 58:32 Colonialism did a number on us.

Trevor Noah 58:34 Oh, yeah, definitely.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 58:35 Mm.

Christiana 58:35 Like, colorism is so rife. Like, I grew up seeing women bleach, and it was just a very normal thing, you know? It, it wasn't, it wasn't until, like, I grew up and deconstructed, and it was just like, I feel like the Middle Passage, it's very clear, the tragedy and the trauma of that.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 58:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right, right, right, right.

Christiana 58:53 Displacement.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 58:54 Right.

Christiana 58:54 You know?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 58:55 Right.

Christiana 58:55 You were taken to another country.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 58:57 Right.

Christiana 58:57 Whether it's in, um, the Caribbean or in America.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 59:01 Right.

Christiana 59:01 But the people that are still in Africa who stayed, and my family who weren't taken, they don't... You don't un- necessarily do the unraveling of, like, what did colonialism and slavery do to us? And I think it warped our sense of what is beautiful. Uh, separate from African Americans in the media and stuff like that, like, fairer is seen as better.

Trevor Noah 59:24 Mm.

Christiana 59:25 Right?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 59:26 Mm.

Christiana 59:26 And that is something that still hasn't changed. Do you know what I mean? I know women my age and young, I know Gen Z girls who bleach, right?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 59:33 Did you guys have... I mean, I'm about to sound really ignorant, but for all of his, like, political impact in terms of Malcolm X, one of the things that came out of that was, like, he, like, he made a lot of that shameful.

Christiana 59:46 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 59:46 Like, even though it still happens, you know, but, like, that whole, like, looking at yourself, like, it, it, the, it, there was a stigma then from that point on-

Christiana 59:53 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 59:53 ... among Black people about, like, nose jobs-

Christiana 59:55 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 59:55 ... changing your eyes, doing certain-

Christiana 59:57 It's, I think s- the, there's a key psychic difference where... I'm not gonna speak for all-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:03 Yeah, of course not

Christiana 1:00:04 ... West Africans.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:04 Of course not.

Christiana 1:00:05 But there's a perception, like, this is something I do t- as an act of social mobility.

Trevor Noah 1:00:09 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:10 Mm.

Christiana 1:00:10 It's got nothing to do-

Trevor Noah 1:00:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:11 ... okay, yeah

Christiana 1:00:11 ... with, like, how I actually feel about-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:13 Okay, okay

Christiana 1:00:13 ... myself or-

Trevor Noah 1:00:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Christiana 1:00:14 ... my Ibonesque, my Yorubanesque-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:16 Oh, okay

Christiana 1:00:17 ... or my Lua-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:18 Mm

Christiana 1:00:18 ... whatever tribe you are.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:19 Right.

Christiana 1:00:19 It's something I do because I know in this world, especially in the country I'm in-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:24 Uh-huh

Christiana 1:00:24 ... if you are fairer skinned, you are treated better.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:27 Uh-huh.

Christiana 1:00:27 And there's, like, studies on it. Like, it's not-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:29 Yes, of course. No, it's, yes, yes

Christiana 1:00:30 ... I mean, and Trevor, I talk about it all the time.

Trevor Noah 1:00:32 Yeah, yeah.

Christiana 1:00:32 Like, all the faces of Africa are, like, Trevor, Tyler.

Trevor Noah 1:00:35 Yep.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:35 Yeah.

Christiana 1:00:35 Like, you know?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:35 Yeah, yeah.

Christiana 1:00:35 Like, why is it that we, the face of Africa that the West has bought into is mixed race? 'Cause they're like-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:42 Mm

Christiana 1:00:42 ... we, that's what we wanna see, right?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:44 Mm-hmm.

Christiana 1:00:44 And Africans intuitively know that when you're, like, unambiguously Black and darker skinned, there's a treat- you're not gonna get- Perceived as African American, which is closer to power-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:56 Mm.

Christiana 1:00:56 And opportunity-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:57 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Christiana 1:00:57 ... in your mind. So in your country-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:00:58 And status, yeah

Christiana 1:00:59 ... and status. So you're like, "Okay, I, I'm gonna lighten my skin." And it, it doesn't, it's not, it's a very, again, 'cause race is constructed differently-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:01:08 Right

Christiana 1:01:08 ... your skin is not necessarily the basis of your racial or ethnic identity.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:01:13 Right.

Christiana 1:01:13 Normally it's your tribe. [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:01:14 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:01:14 Yeah. Fully tribe.

Christiana 1:01:15 Yeah, it's your tribe.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:01:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:01:16 Fully tribe.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:01:17 Yeah.

Christiana 1:01:17 So bleaching your skin doesn't impact your tribe, but I think if you're in-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:01:21 Oh, that's... yeah

Christiana 1:01:21 ... an American context-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:01:23 Yeah, that's like distance. You've moved away

Christiana 1:01:25 ... distance. And you have this legacy-

Trevor Noah 1:01:26 Yeah, yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:01:26 You definitely have moved away from your tribe

Christiana 1:01:27 ... you have a legacy, you have a legacy of passing.

Trevor Noah 1:01:29 Yeah, yeah.

Christiana 1:01:29 Like, it's a, it's a whole different thing.

Trevor Noah 1:01:30 Because your tribe is defined by color in the US very-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:01:32 Yes, yes

Trevor Noah 1:01:32 ... and it isn't in Africa.

Christiana 1:01:33 You know, and you-

Trevor Noah 1:01:34 Your tribe is always gonna be your tribe.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:01:35 Yeah.

Christiana 1:01:35 Your tribe is always your tribe, no matter [laughs] there's not enough bleaching skin cream in the world that's gonna-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:01:40 Uh-huh

Christiana 1:01:40 ... stop me being Ibo, right? [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:01:42 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:01:42 [laughs]

Christiana 1:01:43 So I think there is that difference, but there is a sadness there because I think that sometimes there can be an arrogance of like, I'd say in, as an African raised in diaspora-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:01:51 Mm-hmm

Christiana 1:01:51 ... oh, we were never enslaved.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:01:52 Mm.

Christiana 1:01:53 But we lost so much.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:01:54 Mm.

Christiana 1:01:55 We lost so much as well.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:01:56 Mm-hmm.

Christiana 1:01:56 And we often have the arrogance of like, "Oh, we have our language. We have..." But we lost a great deal, and I think one of the things we lost was seeing ourselves in the mirror and feeling we are beautiful just the way we are, whereas out here you guys had the Black Power movement and were like, "We're gonna reclaim the thing that you have said is not beautiful."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:02:14 I wonder if like, I'm just, I'm still th- because you asked that question about, you know, that essay being unfinished, but what-

Christiana 1:02:20 Not unfinished.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:02:21 No, no. But I'm-

Christiana 1:02:21 I thought that was a restlessness

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:02:22 ... no, still, still processing.

Christiana 1:02:23 But there was some processing.

Trevor Noah 1:02:24 But I'm with you on it.

Christiana 1:02:24 You're grappling.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:02:25 I'm, I'm with you on it.

Christiana 1:02:25 Yeah, yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:02:25 'Cause I, I feel emotionally at least it was, like, unfinished.

Christiana 1:02:28 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:02:28 Like, it wasn't... unresolved.

Christiana 1:02:29 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:02:30 Um, and I think what I hear you saying, like, when you hear, when you say loss, that is something that I obviously immediately relate to.

Christiana 1:02:37 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:02:37 And it's like, of course we had the music. [laughs] You know what I mean?

Christiana 1:02:39 Yeah. [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:02:39 Like, of course we have that, you know?

Christiana 1:02:41 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:02:41 But that's a real thing. I mean, there's been this musical exchange back and forth-

Christiana 1:02:44 Yeah, for sure

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:02:44 ... you know what I mean, that, that is, you know, even happening now. Um, but I guess if I'm honest, what I left wondering about is, is the root of this kinship actually a, a, a shared sense of loss?

Christiana 1:02:58 Hm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:02:59 You know what I mean? And if it is, is that actually enough? Is that kinship? You know what I mean? Like, is that okay? And when I was thinking about it and I was writing, I was like, I don't think that's enough.

Christiana 1:03:12 Okay.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:03:13 Because actually, in fact, the way I, I phrased it was, "Well, all we have in common is the white man." Like, that [laughs] was like my mind.

Trevor Noah 1:03:18 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:03:18 Like, that's how I, how I processed it.

Christiana 1:03:19 So-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:03:19 But you're saying something different.

Christiana 1:03:21 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:03:21 You're saying something different. You're not saying it's, it's, it's the feeling inside of you-

Christiana 1:03:26 Mm-hmm

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:03:26 ... you know, of having... 'Cause I'm gonna tell you, we do have that.

Christiana 1:03:30 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:03:30 That sense of loss.

Christiana 1:03:31 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:03:31 I mean, that's why we go back.

Christiana 1:03:33 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:03:33 That's why we go back. I mean, all of these people doing, you know, "Oh, my, my family's from here in Scotland," which is a very American thing. "I'm from here"

Christiana 1:03:39 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:03:39 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:03:40 "In Ireland. I'm from..." And we're just like, you know, at a certain point it just disappears.

Trevor Noah 1:03:43 Yeah.

Christiana 1:03:44 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:03:44 We just don't know.

Christiana 1:03:45 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:03:46 You know what I mean? It's been erased, and that feeling is a deep, deep wound, you know what I mean, that, that so many of us are chasing.

Christiana 1:03:53 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:03:53 So much so that we, you know, we would invent stuff.

Christiana 1:03:55 It's interesting-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:03:56 You know?

Christiana 1:03:56 ... 'cause you mention a lot the Jewish experience-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:03:59 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Christiana 1:03:59 ... and the Jewish diaspora.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:00 Mm-hmm.

Christiana 1:04:01 It feels like to me that they actually have bonding on, uh, on this feeling of loss.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:06 Yeah.

Christiana 1:04:06 And in ways that-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:07 Yeah

Christiana 1:04:07 ... many people have contentious feelings about.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:10 Yeah.

Christiana 1:04:10 But it was like, whether you're a Moroccan Jew, an Iraqi Jew-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:13 Right, right

Christiana 1:04:13 ... Polish Jew-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:14 Right

Christiana 1:04:15 ... we're gonna be under this umbrella.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:16 Yes.

Christiana 1:04:17 I think loss can be, has great kinetic energy.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:21 For sure.

Trevor Noah 1:04:21 When you talk about the tracing, I, it's funny, I, I think of all your work in many ways is tracing.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:27 Mm-hmm.

Christiana 1:04:27 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:04:27 You know? And every beginning of a chapter and every story that you tell in the book has a, has a feeling of like, "Go and see."

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:38 Yeah.

Christiana 1:04:38 Hm.

Trevor Noah 1:04:39 It really has a go and see.

Christiana 1:04:40 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christiana 1:04:40 See for yourself.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:41 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:04:41 Your book is getting banned. Go and see.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:44 Right.

Christiana 1:04:44 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:04:44 You went to go and see.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:45 Right.

Christiana 1:04:46 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:04:46 You know? Your people come from Africa. You have this identity and maybe you're connected, may- but go and see.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:52 Yes.

Christiana 1:04:52 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:53 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:04:54 You know what I mean? The people of Gaza are being bombed, and the people of Israel are fighting for their survival-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:04:58 Right

Trevor Noah 1:04:59 ... and it, this, there's this conflict of ideas, but go and see.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:05:01 Right.

Christiana 1:05:02 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:05:02 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:05:02 And it made me realize how important a writer is, how important a journalist is, how important a, a storyteller is because oftentimes we can't go and see.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:05:12 That's right.

Christiana 1:05:12 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:05:13 That's right. That's right. And there are a lot of journalists and writers who won't go and see.

Trevor Noah 1:05:17 Yeah.

Christiana 1:05:17 Mm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:05:17 You know, even though, you know, they, they, they should. And this is like, again, you know, the book is written to my students, and this is, like, something I'm really trying to drill in them. You, you really have to touch the thing. Like, you, you-

Christiana 1:05:28 Hm

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:05:28 ... you got to touch it, you know? You got to feel it. You got to experience it because the way it will occur for you will not be the way it'll occur for somebody else.

Christiana 1:05:35 Mm-hmm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:05:35 You know what I mean? In its most specific, I think somebody with a different history with different things might have saw everything I saw in those 10 days, and they would've written something totally different.

Trevor Noah 1:05:43 Hm.

Christiana 1:05:43 Hm.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:05:44 You know what I mean? And so I think seeing it for yourself, running it through, you know, your own filters is, is crucial and key.

Trevor Noah 1:05:50 You know, I, I know we're gonna wrap up soon, but I was thinking-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:05:54 This is my Black podcast right here.

Trevor Noah 1:05:55 [laughs]

Christiana 1:05:55 [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:05:56 This is like, I, I, like, I've been running around talking to people for, like, three days-

Trevor Noah 1:05:59 [laughs]

Christiana 1:05:59 [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:05:59 ... and I have not, you know what I mean, I have not done this.

Trevor Noah 1:06:03 [laughs] Oh, man.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:03 I've, I've needed to do this.

Trevor Noah 1:06:05 [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:05 Needed to see my people.

Christiana 1:06:05 We're fixing the diaspora wounds right now.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:07 Oh, I know.

Christiana 1:06:08 We got Black Brit, South African-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:09 Oh, I love it

Christiana 1:06:10 ... African American.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:10 I love it.

Trevor Noah 1:06:11 That warms my heart. Thank you for saying that.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:12 I love it.

Trevor Noah 1:06:13 No, thank you for saying that.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:14 It's beautiful. It's beautiful.

Trevor Noah 1:06:15 Um, you, you know, you know what I think about?

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:16 I'm gonna send this to my French people. I'm telling you, I'm gonna send this, like, like, my Black French people-

Christiana 1:06:20 I love it

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:20 ... they're gonna, they're gonna love this

Christiana 1:06:20 ... I call them the Oui Oui Blacks. I love them.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:22 Oh. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:06:22 I love, I, I-

Christiana 1:06:23 I love them

Trevor Noah 1:06:23 ... I love them too much.

Christiana 1:06:24 Oui Oui Blacks.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:24 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:06:25 When I'm doing comedy out there-

Christiana 1:06:26 My heart

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:26 ... Oui Oui Blacks. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:06:27 Love it out there. Yeah.

Christiana 1:06:28 I love them. I love them.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:28 Because even over there, I tell my wife, "I don't want too many African American friends here."

Christiana 1:06:33 Yeah.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:33 Like, there's a whole African American diaspora-

Christiana 1:06:35 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:35 ... in Paris-

Trevor Noah 1:06:36 Yeah

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:36 ... that's like, I, I just, I don't-

Christiana 1:06:37 You don't want to be around it. [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:38 Well, I, a few of them is fine, but I don't wanna, like, I gotta, you know, see my people.

Trevor Noah 1:06:42 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christiana 1:06:43 Senegal, Congo.

Trevor Noah 1:06:43 You wanna break it up. No, you wanna break it up.

Christiana 1:06:45 Cote d'Ivoire.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:45 Yes, I gotta see some of that.

Trevor Noah 1:06:46 Yes, exactly.

Christiana 1:06:47 I get, I get, I feel you.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:47 Yes, yes, yes.

Trevor Noah 1:06:48 You gotta, you gotta break it up.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:49 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:06:49 You gotta break it up.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:49 Sorry, Trevor.

Trevor Noah 1:06:50 No, no, no. Not at all.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:50 No.

Trevor Noah 1:06:51 Hey, man, this is what it's for.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:52 [laughs] Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:06:52 Um, and I, I, I'll end by saying this to you. I think if you remove the accolades-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:06:56 [laughs]

Christiana 1:06:56 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:06:57 ... if you remove your awards, if you remove the publishing house, if you remove the smartness, if you remove everything-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:07:03 Yeah, yeah

Trevor Noah 1:07:03 ... we know about Ta-Nehisi Coates, that book would fit in the backpack of somebody who truly sees other people as human beings-

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:07:10 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:07:10 ... first and foremost. And man, I, I wish we all thought like you. I think we're all guilty of stepping out of it, but-

Christiana 1:07:15 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:07:15 ... thank you, man. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for writing it.

Christiana 1:07:18 Thank you.

Trevor Noah 1:07:19 Thank you for going and seeing where we couldn't, and, uh, yeah, man, I hope we, I hope we get to... Maybe we'll do it in Paris next time.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:07:24 Yeah.

Christiana 1:07:24 [laughs]

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:07:24 I would love it. I would love it. Thank you for the discussion.

Trevor Noah 1:07:26 Yeah, man.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:07:27 This was great.

Trevor Noah 1:07:27 Thank you so much.

Ta-Nehisi Coates 1:07:27 Yeah.

Christiana 1:07:28 Great. [upbeat music]