Hilke Schellmann: Is the Algorithm Hiring the Wrong People?

Hilke Schellmann 0:00 [upbeat music] What I have learned by, like, bringing AI into the talent acquisition hiring space, I learned, like, how bad our old processes are. Like, job interviews, actually really bad, um, because you are, uh, it sort of filters out the people who are good about talking-

Trevor Noah 0:18 Mm

Hilke Schellmann 0:18 ... about doing the job.

Trevor Noah 0:20 As opposed to doing the job.

Hilke Schellmann 0:21 So we have this, like, competence versus confidence problem. Like, people who, like, come off as-

Trevor Noah 0:25 Yes

Hilke Schellmann 0:25 ... like, confident, we often think like, "Well, that person speaks so confidently about-

Trevor Noah 0:29 They must be-

Hilke Schellmann 0:29 "They must be really good." It turns out, like, that are more often than not men. Um, and that doesn't mean actually they're competent. So we sometimes complain-

Trevor Noah 0:37 What? Us men?

Hilke Schellmann 0:37 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 0:38 No.

Hilke Schellmann 0:39 Never. Uh [laughs]

Trevor Noah 0:41 What?

Hilke Schellmann 0:42 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 0:42 Us?

Hilke Schellmann 0:42 So, you know. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 0:43 Mm-hmm. You load us, Hilke? No.

Hilke Schellmann 0:47 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 0:47 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 0:48 As always, not all men, but a lot. Um.

Trevor Noah 0:51 Us little men, ooh, acting like we know more than we do. Us?

Hilke Schellmann 0:56 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 0:57 Ooh. Come on, Hilke. Ooh. [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 0:59 Uh, mansplaining. What? [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:06 [laughs] [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 1:08 This is What Now? With Trevor Noah. [upbeat music] You based here? Where are you based?

Hilke Schellmann 1:23 Uh, yeah. Um, based at NYU, 20 Cooper Square.

Trevor Noah 1:26 Okay.

Hilke Schellmann 1:26 I live in Brooklyn.

Trevor Noah 1:27 Okay. Oh, what part of Brooklyn?

Hilke Schellmann 1:28 Greenpoint.

Trevor Noah 1:29 Greenpoint.

Hilke Schellmann 1:30 It's a old-

Trevor Noah 1:31 So that's-

Hilke Schellmann 1:31 ... Polish neighborhood.

Trevor Noah 1:31 Greenpoint's-

Eugene 1:31 Why did your voice go down when you said Greenpoint?

Hilke Schellmann 1:33 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:34 I thought that she did.

Eugene 1:34 I thought that she did.

Hilke Schellmann 1:35 [laughs] He caught me.

Trevor Noah 1:36 Yeah, no. Greenpoint.

Eugene 1:37 No.

Hilke Schellmann 1:37 Um, well, it's v- very different. I've been in the same apartment for 16 years. Been beautiful 16 years ago. It's still kind of beautiful, but the neighborhood is changing a lot. Um-

Trevor Noah 1:45 But isn't it becoming cooler and younger?

Hilke Schellmann 1:48 Yeah. But then-

Trevor Noah 1:49 Oh, that's what you don't like about it

Hilke Schellmann 1:50 ... well, I like that it was, like, kind of Polish, and you walk into a store-

Trevor Noah 1:54 Ah

Hilke Schellmann 1:54 ... and people talk to me in Polish.

Trevor Noah 1:55 Okay.

Hilke Schellmann 1:55 And I don't really know Polish. The only thing I know is, like, one line-

Trevor Noah 1:58 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 1:58 ... that's, like, "Nie mówię po polsku" and that is really bad in Polish saying I don't understand Polish. But I kind of like that.

Trevor Noah 2:04 Wait, that's, that's Polish for I don't understand Polish?

Hilke Schellmann 2:07 Well, it's very bad Polish I was told, but it was enough Polish-

Trevor Noah 2:10 But that's good

Hilke Schellmann 2:10 ... that the-

Trevor Noah 2:10 That's good

Hilke Schellmann 2:11 ... Polish realtor was like, "Whoa, I've never met a German who speaks Polish." I was like, "Well, I just said that I don't speak Polish, and it took me six hours from the train from Berlin to Warsaw to learn this one phrase." Um, because Polish apparently is very hard. Um, so I kind of like that about Greenpoint, and that's, like, becoming exceedingly less, but the uptick is, like, the beauty of it now is, like, we have beautiful restaurants.

Trevor Noah 2:33 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 2:33 So that's pretty cool.

Trevor Noah 2:34 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 2:34 Um, maybe I'm just getting old. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 2:38 I-

Hilke Schellmann 2:38 You know?

Trevor Noah 2:38 I, I've never understood why people learn the phrase, "I can't speak your language," in another language.

Hilke Schellmann 2:43 'Cause you wanna be polite.

Eugene 2:44 And I think first-

Trevor Noah 2:44 But just speak your language

Eugene 2:45 ... like, it's a test on yourself to see-

Trevor Noah 2:47 Yes, but-

Eugene 2:47 ... how much you can learn.

Trevor Noah 2:48 Okay, but now think about this to, think about what this says to the other person.

Eugene 2:51 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 2:52 You've said to them-

Eugene 2:53 Yeah

Trevor Noah 2:53 ... in their language-

Hilke Schellmann 2:53 Yeah

Trevor Noah 2:54 ... you can't speak their language.

Hilke Schellmann 2:55 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 2:55 To me, what it shows me is you just don't wanna speak my language because you've learned enough to say you can't speak it, and then you won't learn the rest.

Hilke Schellmann 3:02 No, I think that's like-

Eugene 3:03 No

Hilke Schellmann 3:03 ... being really polite.

Eugene 3:04 That is not, no.

Hilke Schellmann 3:04 You're, like, visiting them-

Trevor Noah 3:05 No, that's not, that's not nice. No

Hilke Schellmann 3:05 ... and, like, you want to be nice to them.

Trevor Noah 3:06 Think about it. You've literally walked up to somebody, and you wa- someone came up to you, and they're like, "I don't speak English." And then you're like, "Well, you did a great job there." And they're like, "Mm, that's enough for me."

Hilke Schellmann 3:18 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 3:20 [laughs] Think about it.

Eugene 3:20 I think we've done enough for the day.

Trevor Noah 3:21 You're like, "Nah, that's enough for me."

Eugene 3:23 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 3:23 That's good. Well, um, Hilke, welcome to the podcast.

Hilke Schellmann 3:26 Uh, well, thank you for having

Hilke Schellmann 3:27 me.

Trevor Noah 3:27 Thank you so much for joining us. This is, I, like, you know, sometimes, and maybe, maybe it's confirmation bias, sometimes you'll see a thing in the world that confirms the feeling that you're having and the idea. And I, and like a lot of us will be like, "It's a sign. It's a sign." Literally coming here into the, into the studio today, I saw these posters that are all over New York. It's a little QR code.

Hilke Schellmann 3:47 Uh-huh.

Trevor Noah 3:47 And it says, "AI, who are the winners? Who are the losers?" And it's a QR code, and I don't know what's happening, and there's all these different ones everywhere. And then they say, "Is your job next? Is your job next?" And it's all, like, ominous and it feels like it's promo for a movie, but it's not, I think.

Hilke Schellmann 4:03 So what is on this QR code? Did you check?

Trevor Noah 4:04 I'm not gonna scan a random QR code.

Hilke Schellmann 4:06 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 4:07 This is how your phone gets hacked. I'm not gonna scan the QR... I was just, I wa- I just wa- looked, and I was like, "Yes."

Eugene 4:12 I wish I did. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 4:13 I was like, we're talking to the perfect person today because you have dedicated more time in your life than most people into answering this question. Like, basically, like, who are the winners and who are the losers? So, like, be- before we, we, we delve into it, like-

Hilke Schellmann 4:26 Yeah

Trevor Noah 4:27 ... if, if, if you were to explain to somebody who you are and what your passion is in and around the topic of AI and it, how it relates to work, how would you introduce yourself to them?

Hilke Schellmann 4:36 Oh, wow. Um, I guess I feel like, you know, I'm an investigative journalist, and I have... You know, I used to investigate all kinds of things, and now I just investigate AI, and I'm trying to understand, like, how does it work in society and maybe who are the winners and the losers. Uh, but also, like, you know, I really think about, like, the way it's changing the world of work, and I saw it eight years ago starting, and I was like, "Oh, I don't know if people are aware of this, and somebody needs to look into it." And there was kind of nobody else there who was, like, looking into it, so I was like, "Might as well look into it." Um, I'm just driven by, like, sort of curiosity, and I'm like, "What is going on here?" So now it has a little bit involved. Like, I investigate AI, um, not only AI in hiring and in the world of work. I also build AI tools. I think about, like, how journalism will be impacted by AI and how we can maybe save journalism or a factual-based society-

Trevor Noah 5:24 Yeah

Hilke Schellmann 5:24 ... um, when everything can be generated. Um, so those are kind of things and questions that I think about.

Trevor Noah 5:29 I love the idea of being an investigative

Trevor Noah 5:31 journalist, doing everything and then focusing on one thing, 'cause then it makes me go, what was it about this one thing that you thought supersedes everything else? Like, what, what were the other topics you were covering before this that you, that you just-

Hilke Schellmann 5:41 Uh, yeah, I mean, I, I covered-

Trevor Noah 5:42 ... cast aside

Hilke Schellmann 5:43 ... uh, you know, like, uh, uh, violence against women in, in Pakistan. I went to Pakistan.

Trevor Noah 5:47 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 5:48 I looked at, like, South Asia. I did all kinds of things. Um, and I don't know, I had, like, one Lyft ride in 2017 in the fall. I was in Washington, DC, trying to get from a conference that has nothing to do with AI, uh, to the train station. I got in the back of the car and asked the driver, "How are you doing?" And he said I've, I've had a weird day. In the history of me taking Lyfts, no one has ever said that. [laughs] And I was like, "Really? Well, what happened?" He's like, "I had a job interview by a robot, n- with a robot." And I was like, "What? A job interview with a robot?" Um, he's like, "Yeah." You know, he had applied for a baggage handler position at an airport, and he got a call from a robot that asked him three questions, and he was really weirded out. This was in 2017, so we are, you know, light-years, uh, further down the road of AI now.

Trevor Noah 6:30 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 6:31 Uh, but I was like, "I have never heard of this," so I started looking into it, and here we are. And then I went to a conference, and I was like, wait a second, there are all these, like, AI vendors in HR, and, like, it's being used everywhere, and no one talks about it. And whoop, down the rabbit hole I went. Um, and somehow it never... It doesn't let me go. I'm thinking about, like, the next four books on AI, the next research studies on AI. It just doesn't, um... I don't know how I... I don't know. I'm very, I'm very bad at predicting the future, uh, but I could tell that this is, like, a transformative technology-

Trevor Noah 7:01 Yeah, yeah

Hilke Schellmann 7:02 ... that we need to pay attention to, and not only how the technology work, but it's, like, societal implication. What does this mean if we use AI-

Trevor Noah 7:09 Hmm

Hilke Schellmann 7:09 ... in hiring? What is it... What are the consequences of this? If we use it in journalism, how does our world change or maybe not change, and how does it improve the world or maybe not? And I was surprised that there isn't maybe a whole lot of improvement as we wish it would be, at least in hiring.

Trevor Noah 7:26 Mm-hmm.

Hilke Schellmann 7:27 So I think that was a little bit surprising, sadly, um, that when I first saw... Like, the first time I went to a conference and somebody was explaining how they do, like, emotion scanning on their faces and, like, checking the intonation of your voices to find out if you're gonna be good at a job and, like, the words that you say, and I was like, "Wow, who knew that, like, facial expression in s- in job interview could be predictive of your success at a job? Like, what, what a way, like, a new way of science." And then, you know, we trust but verify as a journalist, so I trusted that information, and then I went on to verify it and talked to a lot of experts who are like,

Hilke Schellmann 8:01 "What? Emotion and faces?"

Trevor Noah 8:03 No ways.

Hilke Schellmann 8:03 Like, that doesn't exist to predict how good you are at a job. And I was like-

Trevor Noah 8:07 No ways

Hilke Schellmann 8:08 ... I was like, "Oh, that's too bad." Um, intonation of our voices, we can't really tell what kind of emotions you have. Like, we can sort of, like, make a prediction, but that's not always really the case. Like, you know, it's kind of like-

Trevor Noah 8:21 Yeah, but-

Hilke Schellmann 8:21 ... when I'm in a job interview and I say I'm nervous and... Uh, sorry, uh, when I'm, when I'm in a job interview and, and I smile, and people... You know, a facial, uh, emotion-scanning algorithm would say, like, "Oh, yeah, she's totally happy. She's smiling." And I'm like, "I'm fucking nervous." [laughs]

Trevor Noah 8:35 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 8:35 I'm not, I'm not happy in a job interview. Who in their world has ever been happy in a job interview? Uh-

Trevor Noah 8:42 Oh

Hilke Schellmann 8:42 ... so that's kinda like, you know... It is a prediction, uh, but we're using it to, like, sort of select people, uh-

Trevor Noah 8:47 Yeah, it's just like your intuition-

Hilke Schellmann 8:49 ... in rejection

Trevor Noah 8:49 ... fr- from what I hear, it's like your intuition as an investigative journalist was basically to say, "There's something deeper that's happening here."

Hilke Schellmann 8:55 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 8:55 "There's a world..."

Hilke Schellmann 8:56 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 8:56 Do you know what I mean?

Hilke Schellmann 8:57 Yeah.

Eugene 8:57 Hmm.

Hilke Schellmann 8:57 Totally. And we... And somebody has to look into it. And for some reason it just sometimes happens to be me who's standing right there, so I have to, like, take it on. It's like, you know, when the, when the, uh, chairwoman of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, when I was talking to her about AI and hiring, and she's like, "Yeah, I do wonder. Now we have these, like, one-way video interviews," and, and, you know, the, the companies use the recording, run them through a transcription service, like speech-to-text transcription like you have-

Trevor Noah 9:22 Uh-huh, uh-huh

Hilke Schellmann 9:23 ... on your phone, uh, and then the AI predicts upon that transcription. And she was like, "I wonder how good the transcription software works for people with accents, people with speech disabilities." I'm like, "Yeah, totally, and you have, like, a federal agency. You should totally look into that and study that." And she's like, "Oh, yeah. I don't know." And I was like, "Okay, there's no one here," so I started to study it with the help of a research team, a computer scientist, sociology professor. I don't do this work alone. Um, but, um, yeah. So that's kind of the work that I do.

Eugene 9:50 You know, the more you speak, I realize this is how it sounds like whenever I speak to Trevor about technology. He knows so much about technology. I only know how to send texts.

Trevor Noah 9:58 But you send them very well.

Eugene 9:59 Very well.

Hilke Schellmann 10:00 [laughs]

Eugene 10:00 Sometimes I send pictures as well-

Hilke Schellmann 10:02 Wow

Eugene 10:02 ... with those texts. And an emoji-

Hilke Schellmann 10:04 Wow.

Trevor Noah 10:04 Don't get me started.

Eugene 10:06 You know-

Trevor Noah 10:06 I've actually never heard you talk about AI now that I think about it.

Eugene 10:08 Never. Because also I don't understand how much of it is in my life-

Hilke Schellmann 10:13 Hmm

Eugene 10:13 ... and I don't also understand how much it scares people. So I'm even scared to ask people, "What is it about AI that scares you?" Because I don't interact with technology that much, so how would you explain to me what scares people and how much I've been using without even knowing I've been using?

Hilke Schellmann 10:28 Yeah. Um, well, we use it in everyday life. Do you have a spam filter on your email?

Eugene 10:32 Niks. [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 10:36 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 10:36 [laughs]

Eugene 10:36 Hilke, I specifically said to you.

Hilke Schellmann 10:41 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 10:41 [laughs]

Eugene 10:42 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 10:42 Uh, well, you know, it's, it's like sort of the, the rise of A- of, of AI has been everywhere, right? And it's really, like, software really when it comes down to it. It's just sort of, like, maybe software on steroids. It does things better than we're used to, where we say like, "Oh, if this, then do this." Like, we have now self-learning, uh, tools that can sort of do translations, um, from... You know, we could now be talking in German or French, and an AI could just translate that in our voices, uh, and an AI can generate that. Um, so we see it kind of everywhere, moving into everything. Um-

Trevor Noah 11:14 That's crazy. You... Like, so wait, you're saying with the technology now, out of nowhere we can just go from speaking English and then we just switched into another language?

Eugene 11:23 In real time.

Trevor Noah 11:24 In real time? That-

Hilke Schellmann 11:26 I don't know if it works in real time, but we can definitely do it.

Trevor Noah 11:28 Das ist unglaublich.

Hilke Schellmann 11:28 I could definitely do that. Yeah. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 11:30 Und dann du sprichst Deutsch und, und dann Eugene sprichst Deutsch. Du auch?

Hilke Schellmann 11:33 Ja. Ja, ich spreche auch Deutsch.

Trevor Noah 11:34 Oh.

Hilke Schellmann 11:34 Siehst du, so gut geht das AI. Okay, you-

Trevor Noah 11:37 In my ice broken-

Hilke Schellmann 11:37 ... do not have to emulate

Hilke Schellmann 11:38 the AI

Trevor Noah 11:38 ... ice broken nothing. [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 11:41 [laughs]

Eugene 11:41 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 11:42 You know, you, uh, your book, your book really, um, I think shook me up in, in, in, in the perfect ways-

Hilke Schellmann 11:48 Hmm

Trevor Noah 11:48 ... because you've written extensively about, about the world of AI, and I, and I... What I wanted this conversation to do, because I, I try to talk to people like Eugene, funny enough-

Hilke Schellmann 11:58 Hmm

Trevor Noah 11:58 ... who I realize don't have the handle or the, or, like, the passion for tech that I have, you know? And, and sometimes I think if you love tech too much, you're just focusing on, like, the tech side of it than talking-

Hilke Schellmann 12:07 Yeah, yeah

Trevor Noah 12:07 ... and you're like, "Wow, the engineering-

Hilke Schellmann 12:08 The new tech, the new tech, yeah

Trevor Noah 12:09 ... and the this." And then when I speak to a person who's not into tech, they just go like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait." What does it do for me? What does it do against me? And how do I need to think of its role in my life? And y- your book really broke it down, because one of the first things I noticed a- about your writing is AI is fundamentally gonna change what the word job means. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, job has-

Hilke Schellmann 12:33 Yeah

Trevor Noah 12:33 ... constantly had, like, evolutions over time.

Hilke Schellmann 12:35 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 12:35 Like, people used to go like, "A job is this," and, you know, like, it meant using your hands. And be like, "That's not a job." And the first people on a computer were thinking, they're like, "That's not a job." And then now people go, "That's not..." But fundamentally, from everything I've seen you write, and obviously everything that's happening in the world, it seems like job itself is gonna change. What have you found in, in your investigations on, like, how AI is changing what jobs actually are or aren't, like in different fields, lawyers, doctors-

Hilke Schellmann 13:02 Yeah

Trevor Noah 13:02 ... et cetera?

Hilke Schellmann 13:02 Yeah. I mean, I think we already see some of it coming down. Um, uh, uh, you know, we see... We, we already see some of the consequences of, like, AI infiltrating our, our daily lives.

Trevor Noah 13:14 Hmm.

Hilke Schellmann 13:14 We see a lot of, uh, way less, like, sort of early career hiring, 'cause I think a lot of times people who use AI a lot sort of, uh, describe it as like, "Oh, yeah, I have, like, a little intern with me-

Trevor Noah 13:24 Yeah, yeah

Hilke Schellmann 13:24 ... who does, like, a lot of job for me," right? Like, they can write code for me. They can do, uh, you know, you can generate a research report of stuff that I need to know. Like, I can generate emails, newsletters, like, stuff that I have to, uh, write that-

Trevor Noah 13:36 And these are all the-

Hilke Schellmann 13:36 That we maybe were gonna giving to-

Trevor Noah 13:38 These are all the early jobs that people would-

Hilke Schellmann 13:38 Um-

Trevor Noah 13:38 Set my calendar, book my flights.

Hilke Schellmann 13:40 Um, yes. Yeah, all that.

Trevor Noah 13:40 Remind me of stuff.

Hilke Schellmann 13:42 Yeah, totally. Totally. It can, it can do a lot of that. Um, you know, we're still thinking about, like, still are looking into, like, agentic AI, can it really book the best flight for you that you want? You know, we're still working on that, but it can definitely, um, help you, like, generate research, doing math problems, all kinds of things. Um, so I think we, we see a lot of companies already moving towards, like, oh, having fewer headcounts and sort of, like, I worry a lot about, like, what is... How is this pipeline gonna break of people, um, doing, like, um, early entry jobs? Um, how are they gonna get the expertise and the wherewithal to, like, move up if we sort of take out the, the first layer of jobs? Um, maybe we should-

Trevor Noah 14:18 Yeah, because I mean-

Hilke Schellmann 14:18 ... just still, like, upskill people, and,

Hilke Schellmann 14:21 um-

Trevor Noah 14:21 But how do we, how do we... That, that seems to be the conundrum, right, is law firms. Most of the people who start out in a law firm start out, they've got their law degree, they go and work at a law firm, and it's-

Hilke Schellmann 14:31 Yeah

Trevor Noah 14:31 ... like your job is just to, like-

Hilke Schellmann 14:33 They do research, yeah

Trevor Noah 14:33 ... go through the paperwork and do-

Hilke Schellmann 14:35 Yeah

Trevor Noah 14:35 ... the research and write up briefs and do this. But you're working for someone. But in that process, you're learning, and they're teaching you what they're looking for, and they're trying to... But y- if we cut off that level, then where does the expertise come from?

Hilke Schellmann 14:48 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 14:48 You know? Because we say upskill, but then who is doing the up of the skill?

Hilke Schellmann 14:51 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, like, sort of a, a, um, you know, what I sometimes fundamentally think of, and, you know, we don't have all the answers yet to some of these questions, if I may say that, is, like, sort of like what, what stays as a human, uh, in the age of AI, right? If, like, uh, AI can do sort of what we think as, like, very human-

Trevor Noah 15:10 Yeah

Hilke Schellmann 15:10 ... uh, things, like, if AI can write better than I do, how can I express myself? Like, and what does it mean for humans in a world of AI? Like, what do we bring to the table now that AI can do so many things for us? [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 15:24 Don't go anywhere, 'cause we got more What Now? after this. This episode is brought to you by our friends at SurveyMonkey. You know, Eugene, I don't know if you've ever thought of starting a business, but every time I think about people who start businesses, I'm like, man, you need a specific kind of bravery, and by bravery, I mean terrifying uncertainty. Because think about it, right now, everywhere in the world, there are people making massive life-altering decisions based entirely on a vibe, just a feeling in their gut.

Hilke Schellmann 15:56 That was me when joining the podcast.

Trevor Noah 15:58 You know what I mean?

Hilke Schellmann 15:59 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 15:59 But what if you actually knew the truth when you started a business? What if you knew your direct reports weren't just nodding along but actually had thoughts that they were too polite to tell you?

Hilke Schellmann 16:07 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 16:08 Or what if you knew that your best customers were already halfway out the door to a competitor? Because let's face it, we like to say follow your heart, but in business, ignorance is a very expensive hobby. The good news, Eugene, is that SurveyMonkey takes the fear out of asking and the doubt out of deciding. It's the difference between walking into a meeting with a hunch and walking in with 500 validated opinions, which mathematically is better for your blood pressure. The truth might hurt for a second, but it's cheaper than being wrong. So let's get you a survey and some actual answers. Sign up for an annual plan at surveymonkey.com/whatnow, and use the code WHATNOW for two months free. That's two months free with code WHATNOW at surveymonkey.com/whatnow. You have any questions?

Hilke Schellmann 16:52 Is it too late for me to run a survey about who doesn't like you in the podcast?

Trevor Noah 16:56 What do you mean who doesn't like y- you? Like, like me?

Hilke Schellmann 17:00 Like you, yes. Specifically the person in front of me.

Trevor Noah 17:02 I think surveys are supposed to be anonymous so that people's feelings don't get hurt.

Hilke Schellmann 17:05 But I did type anonymous there.

Trevor Noah 17:07 Well, I mean, now I'll know that you typed it because do, do you have a problem with the working conditions?

Hilke Schellmann 17:11 I haven't sent it.

Trevor Noah 17:12 But you wanna make a survey about-

Hilke Schellmann 17:13 I haven't sent it yet.

Trevor Noah 17:15 You can just use the code WHATNOW to get two months free when you do it.

Hilke Schellmann 17:19 Still have two months to complain about you.

Trevor Noah 17:22 I feel like this is got personal.

Trevor Noah 17:28 All right, Eugene.

Hilke Schellmann 17:29 Mm.

Trevor Noah 17:29 Let's play a little game. You know, make something fun. Two Truths and a Lie.

Hilke Schellmann 17:34 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 17:34 Here we go. One, I've had to tell a world leader that their fly was undone. Two, when getting dressed, I don't do sock, sock, shoe, shoe. I do sock, shoe, sock, shoe. Three, I've been a Verizon customer for 11 years. What do you think?

Hilke Schellmann 17:51 Hmm. Very confused. First of all, why would a world leader own a fly? 'Cause those things just come uninvited. Secondly, lying to your friend is not cool. It's never been a game.

Trevor Noah 18:01 No, Eugene, f- a fly is for... Like, the zip is what... And then it's, it's g- it's not a lie. It's a game where I'm try- it's like I give you inform- okay, I lied. All three are true, Eugene. And in case you were thinking, you know, Verizon isn't as expensive as you think. In fact, if you bring in your AT&T or T-Mobile bill, they'll give you a better deal. And the reason I've been with them for this long is just because I travel so much. I need a network that's reliable. That's right, a better deal on the best network with the most ways to save on plans, streaming, and phone deals. Take your AT&T or T-Mobile bill to your local Verizon store today. Get your better deal and start saving for real. Based on RootMetrics' best overall mobile network performance, US second half 2025. All rights reserved. You must provide recent consumer mobile bill in the name of the person redeeming the deal. Additional terms, conditions, and restrictions apply. So do you understand how two truths and... Do, do you understand it now?

Eugene 19:03 I understand that you didn't have to lie first before telling me that Verizon is the best.

Trevor Noah 19:07 No, I wasn't lying f- Eugene, it's not a lie. I wouldn't lie to you. It's, it's a game. Okay, I'm sorry.

Eugene 19:13 I lied.

Trevor Noah 19:15 Ah. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 19:27 In, in the job space actually, I, I would love to know, like-

Hilke Schellmann 19:30 Yeah

Trevor Noah 19:31 ... you've done a lot of investigating, and I wanna get into some of the stories because I th- I think people will be fascinated by how humans have been affected by AI already. Is there, is there, is there like a concrete number on how much hiring is actually done by AI now and how much is human? Because a lot of people out there, if you told them, "Oh, hey, your job application, your CV, your resume, whatever you type up, it's not even seen by a human in some companies."

Hilke Schellmann 19:54 Not?

Trevor Noah 19:54 Yeah, nothing.

Hilke Schellmann 19:55 Yeah, sorry. Um, so we think about the... [laughs]

Trevor Noah 19:57 How do you think you got here? You think if I knew you were coming you'd be here?

Hilke Schellmann 20:01 If I looked at your resume. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 20:02 This was AI. [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 20:06 You now have to say it was, like, shitty AI or something. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 20:09 [laughs]

Eugene 20:10 This freaks me out ev- at every, at every turn. Wait, wait, so someone applies for a job.

Hilke Schellmann 20:15 So you, like, upload your resume, or you don't even have it uploaded.

Eugene 20:18 Yes.

Hilke Schellmann 20:18 Or like you already have it on LinkedIn and you just t- hit the one click.

Eugene 20:21 Present.

Hilke Schellmann 20:21 Yeah. So, um-

Eugene 20:22 To the company I'd like to work for.

Hilke Schellmann 20:24 Yeah.

Eugene 20:24 Right?

Hilke Schellmann 20:24 So, like, all of these big platforms, they all use some form of AI. That I can tell you. We don't have, like, a central register where companies-

Eugene 20:31 Mm

Hilke Schellmann 20:31 ... have to register and say, like, "We use this AI tool or not." We just know this from surveys and sometimes me calling companies. Um, so I know that they use AI. So you have to think about, like, the beginning of the hiring process you often have thousands of people applying for a job, right? We call this like sort of a big funnel. And, uh, some companies, you know, this is, um, a couple years old, but I talked to Google, they get over three million applications. IBM gets five million, over five million applications a year. So it's a lot of resumes that come into this funnel. So what we now see is, like, um, a lot of companies, and usually large companies, a lot of Fortune 500s, uh, use AI to reject people, to sort of cull the herd of all these applicants. And, like, so we see in the early stages, uh, rejection, rejection, and, like, a few people, uh, going on the yes path for AI.

Hilke Schellmann 21:17 And then, you know, doing, like, one-way video interviews, and now we have video avatars interviewing people.

Trevor Noah 21:22 Just ex- just break down what is a one-way video interview? 'Cause I think a lot of people... I didn't know what that was until I-

Hilke Schellmann 21:27 Yeah, totally

Trevor Noah 21:27 ... until I read your work.

Hilke Schellmann 21:28 Uh, yeah, I hear you. Uh, I've done so many. [laughs]

Eugene 21:29 Until 30 seconds ago. What are you talking about?

Trevor Noah 21:31 No, but I didn't know.

Eugene 21:32 Me.

Trevor Noah 21:32 Yeah. [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 21:34 Yeah. [laughs] So, like, a one-way video or audio interview, like, uh, you know, there's now a traditional way to do this, which is, like, six or seven years old, uh, where you don't have anybody else, uh, on, like, you know, you kinda log in, you get a link, um, do this, uh, video interview if, if you want the job in the, in the next 48 hours. So you click the link, and then instead of a human on the other side, it's on a Zoom call, um, you just, like, get maybe a video of somebody saying, "Hey, welcome to company X. We're so delighted you are here. We have a couple of tests for you." And then you get a question like, "What are your strength and weaknesses? Why do you want this job?" And then you tape yourself basically. You get, like, a couple minutes to prepare, and then you tape yourself, like, saying like, "My strength and my weakness is this." Uh, and then I think all of the, uh, applicants I've spoken to think that, like, a human watches all these vi- videos. Bless their hearts if they do. And some companies actually do have humans watch it, all of these, but some companies also use AI, uh, to, uh, rank people and, uh, uh, do that. So we see that more and more, and we see this often, like, entry-level jobs. We see this in, like, uh-

Trevor Noah 22:38 Hm

Hilke Schellmann 22:38 ... retail companies, fast food, like, um, it's called, uh, high turnover, high... No. High volume, high... I don't remember. Um, so it's in, in, in job space-

Trevor Noah 22:48 Jobs, jobs that generally have people, where people are coming in quickly and leaving quickly.

Hilke Schellmann 22:51 Exactly.

Trevor Noah 22:51 Like, they're not gonna be there. It's not a career job. So people are going-

Hilke Schellmann 22:54 Sometimes it's a career job.

Trevor Noah 22:56 Oh, but it's just-

Hilke Schellmann 22:56 We see, yes-

Trevor Noah 22:56 ... like, high turnover

Hilke Schellmann 22:57 ... uh, but it's, it's a high turnover or you have, like, lots of candidates that you have to go through.

Trevor Noah 23:00 Okay, got it. Got it, got it.

Hilke Schellmann 23:01 Um, so for example, like, Goldman Sachs had, um, a f- a few years ago for their summer internship, they had, like, over 100,000 applications. Um, so th- they have to, like, go through these applications and, like, narrow down the pool. So you use, like, resume screening AI. Uh, you use, like, uh, video interviews.

Trevor Noah 23:18 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 23:18 You can use games.

Trevor Noah 23:19 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 23:19 Uh, we see, like, uh, personality. Uh, these games are supposed to find your personality, um, while you're clicking on balloons, pumping up balloons, they find your personality.

Trevor Noah 23:29 It's, it's, it's-

Hilke Schellmann 23:29 All kinds of ways to assess you without maybe putting in a whole lot of work because humans are expensive to do this work. And also,

Hilke Schellmann 23:38 sorry to say this, but a lot of humans, they do suck at hiring because we have bias.

Trevor Noah 23:42 So that's... Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 23:43 We have human bias.

Trevor Noah 23:43 But that's, so now that's the conundrum.

Hilke Schellmann 23:45 And I suck at hiring. Um-

Trevor Noah 23:45 But this is the conundrum though.

Hilke Schellmann 23:46 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 23:46 So, so, so this is, this is the thing that's, like, weird now just for this part of it is my refle- my reflex when I hear something like that is to go, "Oh, no, this is, this is not good. How can you have AIs screening people's interviews and..." But then on the other hand I go, if you have 100,000 people applying to a job, let's be honest, I don't think there's any human who's gonna get through those 100,000 application. I don't think there's any humans, and I wouldn't be shocked if there were, like, a bunch of humans who were skipping through this before because they were just like... It's like auditions in a way. At some point the person's tired.

Hilke Schellmann 24:21 Yeah, totally.

Trevor Noah 24:21 You know, you, you wanna get them when they're fresh. You wanna get them when they're in the mood.

Hilke Schellmann 24:25 Yeah, not when they hungry or-

Trevor Noah 24:26 And I won- I wonder is there a world where, like, does the AI make it better then?

Hilke Schellmann 24:31 You know, I wish I could tell you that. Um-

Trevor Noah 24:34 So we don't know

Hilke Schellmann 24:34 ... and I have... We don't know. I've asked-

Trevor Noah 24:36 Oh, wow

Hilke Schellmann 24:36 ... many, many companies, um, to let me come in as a researcher and, like, sort of, uh, look at, like, here's your traditional way of hiring, here's, uh, your AI hiring, and have this-

Trevor Noah 24:45 And what do they say?

Hilke Schellmann 24:45 ... like, run at both times, and then sort of double-check, like, you know, the people that the AI said that would be high performers, did they actually turn out to be high performers?

Trevor Noah 24:53 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 24:53 And I have not seen a company do this or want to share this with me or with anyone.

Trevor Noah 24:59 Huh.

Hilke Schellmann 24:59 I think it's because, I don't know, there's, like, a lot of turnover in HR, like, these processes, um, don't work that, that well, and I think what we already know... So what we know from a survey of, uh, C-suite leaders, like, sort of leadership in companies, um, of over 2,000 in Germany, the UK, and the US, uh, when they asked them, "If your company uses AI tools, um, do they reject qualita- qualified, do they reject qualified candidates?" And almost 90%, um, of the leadership said yes. So they know that their tools reject qualified candidates.

Trevor Noah 25:32 Hmm.

Hilke Schellmann 25:34 They still use it because I guess the efficiency from, uh, using AI versus humans, it's just much, much more greater. Um, but it's not that we know that one process is better-

Trevor Noah 25:44 Yeah

Hilke Schellmann 25:44 ... than the other. I mean, we do know that, like, uh, humans are very biased in hiring, and even the best anti-bias training is not gonna get out of it.

Trevor Noah 25:52 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 25:52 Um, and you know, y- we all know the shortcuts, right? If you see somebody on your resume that they went to Harvard, you're like, "Oh, they must be smart." No.

Eugene 25:59 They're not?

Hilke Schellmann 25:59 Probably s- [laughs]

Trevor Noah 26:00 [laughs] Eugene, I feel like you're just, like, going down a rabbit hole.

Hilke Schellmann 26:04 But, but we know from social science-

Eugene 26:04 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 26:05 This episode, Eugene Koza learns about the world.

Hilke Schellmann 26:08 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 26:08 She's like, "Wait, what are you telling me?" [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 26:12 Um, well-

Trevor Noah 26:12 But, but, but to go, you know... So this, this is, this is, this is where I- I feel like we stumble on the, on the first conundrum.

Hilke Schellmann 26:17 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 26:18 Generally, generally, machines like predictability.

Hilke Schellmann 26:21 Yes.

Trevor Noah 26:22 Right? Algorithms like predictability. They, that's what an algorithm is fundamentally sort of trying to do is-

Hilke Schellmann 26:27 Is fi- it finds, like, patterns and, you know, yeah

Trevor Noah 26:29 ... it's fi... Yeah, and a pattern is a predictability.

Hilke Schellmann 26:31 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 26:31 Right? The conundrum or the paradox of being human is that the biggest breakthroughs that have come from humanity have often come from the pattern breakers.

Hilke Schellmann 26:41 Yes.

Trevor Noah 26:41 The person who didn't think correctly, the person who didn't fit the algorithm, the person-

Eugene 26:45 The outliers.

Trevor Noah 26:45 So I, I w-

Hilke Schellmann 26:46 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 26:46 Yeah, the outliers. So I wonder, I wonder if companies in moving all of their resources towards efficiency and pattern recognition might go the opposite direction of innovation, 'cause it's like, it's almost like the misfits and the mistakes-

Hilke Schellmann 27:02 Yeah

Trevor Noah 27:02 ... are sometimes the ones who give you the biggest flips.

Hilke Schellmann 27:04 The weird stuff.

Trevor Noah 27:04 You know, do you know what I'm saying?

Hilke Schellmann 27:05 Yeah.

Eugene 27:05 Yeah, yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 27:05 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

Eugene 27:06 I feel like the solution has caused a problem. Well, we were speaking about how many people had, uh, applied to Goldman Sachs, and I think if it wasn't for technology, would you still get that many applications?

Trevor Noah 27:17 That's interesting.

Hilke Schellmann 27:18 Yeah.

Eugene 27:18 Would 100,000 people from all over the world show up at the address to put in their resumes?

Trevor Noah 27:23 This is true.

Eugene 27:24 So I think technology also-

Hilke Schellmann 27:25 Yeah

Eugene 27:25 ... allowed easy access-

Hilke Schellmann 27:26 Ab- absolutely

Eugene 27:26 ... 'cause I also think there's people who know they don't qualify but would do it anyway.

Hilke Schellmann 27:29 Yeah.

Eugene 27:29 So why would you put a human through all of this? But also I think it's a, sort of a box-ticking exercise for some companies as well. I think some companies don't want to hire anybody, but they'll just put out a thing that says, "We want to hire somebody."

Hilke Schellmann 27:41 Yeah.

Eugene 27:42 Then they'll end up doing the internal process anyway because if you're gonna trust people with people's monies and files and information, you'd want someone that you know. So I think companies know exactly what's going on, but they're just sending out hope. And I think once you advertise a job, it's a great way to advertise your company as well.

Hilke Schellmann 27:56 Yeah, yeah. I mean, sort of like people online, you know, they, they often joke because obviously some people obviously are very aware that companies use AI.

Eugene 28:04 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 28:04 And now a lot of, uh, uh, you know, I think, I think it felt very, uh, like passive and, and-

Trevor Noah 28:10 Mm

Hilke Schellmann 28:10 ... and sad for a lot of applicants until sort of LLMs and ChatGPT and other AI came around-

Trevor Noah 28:14 Yeah

Hilke Schellmann 28:14 ... where now it's, like, much easier for, for me as an applicant to generate a resume. There's actually now AI-

Trevor Noah 28:20 So now it's AI warfare. [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 28:21 Um, yes, it is AI versus AI.

Trevor Noah 28:23 Because it's like I'm gonna

Trevor Noah 28:24 use the-

Hilke Schellmann 28:24 Uh-

Trevor Noah 28:24 ... I'm gonna use the AI-

Eugene 28:25 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 28:25 ... to apply for the job.

Eugene 28:26 Yes.

Trevor Noah 28:26 They're gonna use the AI to grade me.

Hilke Schellmann 28:28 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 28:28 I'm gonna use the AI to pass the grades.

Eugene 28:30 Yes.

Hilke Schellmann 28:30 Exactly.

Trevor Noah 28:30 Then they're gonna... I mean-

Hilke Schellmann 28:31 I'm gonna try to use AI to, like, outsmart the AI.

Trevor Noah 28:33 Huh. Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 28:34 There's actually AI programs that now apply for you, um, so you don't even have to do anything. Um, so there's all kinds of stuff. But, like, the question is, like, well, what are we then doing here? Like, like-

Trevor Noah 28:44 Yeah, like what are we?

Hilke Schellmann 28:45 Yeah. What are we doing?

Trevor Noah 28:46 In, in fact, that is a good question.

Hilke Schellmann 28:47 That is, that is a great question. Like, what are we doing?

Trevor Noah 28:47 That becomes the question, what are we do- because if the AI is hiring the people who are using the AI to get the job, that the AI has hired the people, th- then we, that's what I mean, is, like, we have to ask the fundamental question, wait, what was the point of this process in the first place? Because multiple studies have shown humans are terrible at predicting the future, especially when it comes to hiring, right? A lot of the time when you're hired, you're hired because the person sitting across from you saw something in you that they considered-

Hilke Schellmann 29:20 Hmm

Trevor Noah 29:20 ... correct for the company, but a lot of the time it's just wrong.

Hilke Schellmann 29:23 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 29:23 You know what I mean? It's just, it's wrong. And then people don't do well, and they go like, "Well, that, that didn't work." But, uh, but the, the prediction is wrong.

Hilke Schellmann 29:30 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 29:31 You know what I'm saying?

Hilke Schellmann 29:31 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 29:32 And so now I almost feel like we, we forgot what the whole point of an interview was. Like, I, I'm not a historian, but if I was to bet, I would think an interview was just to be like, "Let me see what your vibe is."

Eugene 29:42 It was a vibe check.

Trevor Noah 29:43 It was a vibe check.

Hilke Schellmann 29:44 Yeah. But it turns out, like, vibe checks, not so great actually. Like, because you, you-

Eugene 29:48 At predicting who's a good employee.

Hilke Schellmann 29:50 Yeah. But, but also, like, a vibe check is, like, finding people who, like- Like, are often, like, have the same background as you. They speak like you.

Trevor Noah 29:57 Exactly.

Hilke Schellmann 29:57 They vibe with you.

Trevor Noah 29:58 Exactly.

Hilke Schellmann 29:58 So you find the same people again.

Trevor Noah 30:00 Yes.

Hilke Schellmann 30:01 Um, but, you know, we kind of know that, like, diversity is good for companies. Um, also, like, I mean, I think that's why we have, uh, you know, fewer women, people of color in leadership, uh, positions, because we have under-estimated them as humans in hiring for decades and, and, and promotion decisions. So we have, like, a sort of, uh, a lack of diversity already 'cause of human bias and sort of the vibe.

Trevor Noah 30:22 Yeah, the vibe.

Hilke Schellmann 30:22 You know, you know, you know, when you go, come to a job interview, you want nothing more but, like, somebody, you know, like the HR manager or the hiring manager to like you, and then you start talking about like, "Well, what school did you go to?"

Trevor Noah 30:32 If you walking wearing the same shirt.

Hilke Schellmann 30:34 Or, like, "What did you..."

Trevor Noah 30:34 Oh, boy, it's on.

Hilke Schellmann 30:34 "Do you like this, do you like this, uh, you know, uh, sports team," yada, yada, yada. And that chitchat feels, like, very good for humans to make a human connection.

Trevor Noah 30:42 Yes.

Hilke Schellmann 30:43 But it's actually really bad, uh, 'cause that what brings the bias in. Because as... And now as a hiring manager I'm like, "Oh, man, you went to the same school as me. That's so cool." I see you in a completely different light than other people, and I'm supposed to look at, like, what are the capabilities and, like, uh, your skills that you need for the job, not if we went to the same school. But we as humans do that, and that's where, like, a lot of the bias, uh, comes in. The unfortunate thing is you might think, well, AI is, like, a pattern machine-

Trevor Noah 31:09 Yeah

Hilke Schellmann 31:09 ... that just finds patterns, right? And it will just look at your, like, capabilities, your skills, and find the most skilled person. Um-

Trevor Noah 31:16 Mm.

Hilke Schellmann 31:16 But what we've seen, um, in some of the AI tools when I talk to, uh, lawyers and, and others who get access to these tools, when, like, an AI provider... You know, they built the tool, an AI vendor, and a company may use their tool. Sometimes they bring in lawyers and do their due diligence.

Trevor Noah 31:30 Mm-hmm.

Hilke Schellmann 31:30 Like, how does this tool work? And, uh, what they found out is, um, when the lawyers looked at it, that, uh, the tool used, um, some of these tools use kind of problematic keywords. So for example, uh-

Trevor Noah 31:42 Oh, there was the-

Hilke Schellmann 31:42 ... one tool-

Trevor Noah 31:43 There was the Amazon story

Trevor Noah 31:44 that you wrote about.

Hilke Schellmann 31:44 Yeah, the Amazon story is one of them.

Trevor Noah 31:46 The Amazon one was pretty insidious.

Hilke Schellmann 31:47 But, um-

Trevor Noah 31:47 Wait

Hilke Schellmann 31:47 ... so this was, this was, like, if you had the word, uh, woman or women-

Trevor Noah 31:50 Yes

Hilke Schellmann 31:51 ... um, on your resume, you got downgraded. 'Cause, you know, the, the, the t- the tool had learned over time, you know. You s- you s- you give it, um, uh, uh, resumes of people who currently work here or, or who maybe made it to the last round of hiring, sort of labeling thas- them as these are the successful people. Well, if you work in a tech company and you probably have a gender disparity already, uh, built in, uh, from maybe previous bias, um, you kind of replicate that, right? If the people who are in the role, if you use their resumes, the, the ma- sh- machine does what it does best. It looks for patterns, and it finds out-

Trevor Noah 32:24 And it finds the patterns

Hilke Schellmann 32:24 ... wow, women are less successful here, so we should downgrade them in the hiring process. So-

Trevor Noah 32:28 Yeah, there, there were some applications in the story where Amazon was hiring people, and their system basically went on its own, doing its job as it had been told, and it went, "Oh, I've noticed women's soccer team, women's baseball, women's anything does not match with the people who are currently at the top of Amazon."

Hilke Schellmann 32:51 They don't have that word on their resumes, basically.

Trevor Noah 32:53 Exactly. So this person is less likely to be like that person, so we're gonna downgrade that. But this had nothing to do with your actual qualifications.

Eugene 33:02 Wait, did AI do that, or did someone who put the input to the AI do that?

Trevor Noah 33:05 No, AI did that.

Hilke Schellmann 33:06 Yeah, there was no input. This was, this was a machine l-

Eugene 33:08 There was no input at all.

Hilke Schellmann 33:08 Yeah. You have to think about, like, you know, sort of, uh, present day AI, what we do is, like, we give, uh, uh, the AI just the data we have and l- have it, like... We call it unsupervised learning. Have it, like, figure out, uh, what do these people have in common and who should we hire.

Trevor Noah 33:23 The best fit for, yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 33:24 Um, so, yeah.

Trevor Noah 33:24 Yes.

Hilke Schellmann 33:24 So it looks at, like, patterns in the, the, the resume lake, um, that you give it, and I guess it scans all of the words, and then, then it does what it does best. It does, um, um, a pattern, um, analysis and finds out, you know... And one other example was, like, if you had the word Thomas on your resume, you also got more points.

Trevor Noah 33:43 If you had the word what?

Hilke Schellmann 33:44 Thomas.

Trevor Noah 33:45 Thomas?

Hilke Schellmann 33:45 Thomas.

Trevor Noah 33:45 Like the m- the name Thomas.

Hilke Schellmann 33:46 Thomas, like the name Thomas. Um-

Trevor Noah 33:48 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 33:48 Or, like, in an- another case it was, like, words like Syria and Canada. Um, so the-

Trevor Noah 33:53 What, those got you up or down?

Hilke Schellmann 33:55 That got you up, actually. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 33:56 If you had Syria and Canada.

Eugene 33:57 If you had the combination, you were hired.

Hilke Schellmann 33:59 Yes. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 33:59 Wait, wait, but now, but now, but now-

Hilke Schellmann 34:00 If your name is Thomas on top of that. [laughs]

Eugene 34:01 From Syria via Canada.

Hilke Schellmann 34:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 34:03 No, but now-

Hilke Schellmann 34:04 So, so-

Trevor Noah 34:04 So here's my question, though. D- does that mean that people could... Are there tricks that people could use now? So if I was writing a resume today, could I just write somewhere randomly, um-

Hilke Schellmann 34:15 Syria, Canada

Trevor Noah 34:16 ... passions, reading about Syria. Uh, Canada, I like it.

Eugene 34:21 Maple syrup.

Hilke Schellmann 34:21 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 34:22 Thomas, Thomas. You know what it is.

Hilke Schellmann 34:24 Thomas, Thomas, Thomas, Thomas, Thomas, and white.

Trevor Noah 34:25 Thomas, Thomas, Thomas.

Hilke Schellmann 34:26 Um-

Trevor Noah 34:26 And then, and then-

Hilke Schellmann 34:27 Well, so I think the, the-

Eugene 34:28 Mm

Hilke Schellmann 34:28 ... the problem is that, like, most tools are, like, individually calibrated to each company. So, um-

Trevor Noah 34:33 Oh, so I could, I could only get hired at Amazon by doing this.

Hilke Schellmann 34:36 Well, Amazon had that women's problem, um, but they say they changed that. They also say that their, uh, machine learning algorithm was never used solely to make hiring decisions. Um-

Trevor Noah 34:46 But no one would say that it was.

Eugene 34:48 Of course they will deny.

Trevor Noah 34:49 Like, I mean, which company would be... I don't think I've seen a single story where a company has come out and said, "Yeah, man, we were just using a computer to choose who was coming here." All of them go like, "No, no, this was not the only thing. This was merely a pilot program that determined..."

Eugene 35:03 You know, the more you guys-

Hilke Schellmann 35:04 Yeah

Eugene 35:04 ... talk, the more I realize, are we, are we under... You're a journalist. You know this. Are we underplaying the role that biases have played in our lives, people choosing whatever it is that represents a certain, uh, group of people or a company even based on what they think the taste of the, of the population or demographic is? Do you understand what I'm saying?

Hilke Schellmann 35:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so, so you're thinking generally or in the hiring process at work?

Eugene 35:30 No, in the hiring process. Because if you're gonna work for a company and the person sits there, goes, "I think you'd be great here because of what, what, what."

Trevor Noah 35:36 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eugene 35:37 Now we are going... Because I think bias is always, and I could be wrong, always comes in when we speak of race, gender, or religion. Once you've ticked those three boxes, we're like, "Yeah." But how many places have we gone to where there's that mix because of someone's biases who decided maybe people who are six foot with muscles should be in construction and... 'Cause they look like this, they sound like this, they talk like this. Actually, they'll be great for this job. So how many, how, how many of us are beneficiaries of biases?

Hilke Schellmann 36:06 I think, I think a lot of us are beneficiaries and a lot of us also, um, have, uh, been sort of the victims of bias. And probably unbeknownst, because, you know, you go in for, for a job interview or you, you, you, you send in your resume, and most likely is you get rejected, right? 'Cause there's only so many jobs at the, at the, uh, that are being given out. Um, so the question is, like, were you rejected? And I think most of us humans think, "Oh, well, I was rejected 'cause I wasn't the most qualified candidate." Well, it might have been that you've been rejected because your name is Thomas, or in one actually instance-

Trevor Noah 36:39 Mm

Hilke Schellmann 36:39 ... there was, uh, the word African American that was used, um, to weigh resumes. In another instance, there was if you had the word baseball on your resume, you got more points. If you had the word softball on your resume, you got fewer points.

Trevor Noah 36:51 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 36:51 So, um, that's probably gender discrimination, right?

Trevor Noah 36:54 I would give you-

Hilke Schellmann 36:54 'Cause more women-

Trevor Noah 36:54 I would give you zero points for both.

Hilke Schellmann 36:56 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 36:57 In my company, I would be fair. You say baseball-

Hilke Schellmann 37:00 Um-

Trevor Noah 37:00 You say softball, I would detract the points. But Trevor, do you see how it circled back, how those-

Hilke Schellmann 37:04 And this was not a baseball position

Trevor Noah 37:05 ... no, it really does. You know what, though?

Hilke Schellmann 37:06 And the question is, like, you know, like-

Trevor Noah 37:07 It's crazy

Hilke Schellmann 37:07 ... what does it have to do with baseball?

Trevor Noah 37:08 Yeah, this wasn't even in baseball.

Hilke Schellmann 37:09 Um-

Trevor Noah 37:09 But no, but you know, you know what? I- Whoa ... in a, in a way, I know this, this is gonna sound like-

Hilke Schellmann 37:13 Yeah

Trevor Noah 37:13 ... a little crazy, but, like, I can sort of understand these ones. And when I'd read the examples in your work, I would go, "This sort of makes sense."

Hilke Schellmann 37:21 Mm.

Trevor Noah 37:21 "I can see why they've made a mistake here, and they can rectify it." But there are some examples that you've given that, that blow my mind. For instance-

Hilke Schellmann 37:27 Okay

Trevor Noah 37:27 ... there's one, there's one story that you go into of a guy, I think by the name of Mike, and he's e- like, working for Bloomberg, or he's, like, work- trying to get a job-

Hilke Schellmann 37:37 Oh, yeah

Trevor Noah 37:37 ... at Bloomberg or something.

Hilke Schellmann 37:38 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 37:38 And please help me understand this, 'cause from what I understood, I'll say it and then you let me know if I'm right or if I... He had to play a game, like Candy Crush type stuff, of popping balloons, and then he got fired because of how he popped the balloons?

Hilke Schellmann 37:57 He didn't get fired, uh, but he did apply to a job.

Trevor Noah 38:00 Okay.

Hilke Schellmann 38:00 Um, he was based in, uh, Barcelona and, and, and pla- and, uh, he was based in Barcelona and applied to a job in, in London. Um, and he got a link immediately after applying saying, like, "Hey, go to this link." Um, and you know, I, I sort of feel like we as, uh, job applicants, we are sort of forced consumers of this tech, right?

Trevor Noah 38:19 Mm.

Hilke Schellmann 38:19 Because if you want the job and you get an email with the link saying, like, "Hey, you have 48 hours."

Trevor Noah 38:23 What are you gonna do?

Hilke Schellmann 38:23 "Click on this link."

Trevor Noah 38:24 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 38:24 "Play this game," what are you gonna do? You're gonna do it.

Trevor Noah 38:26 Yeah, you're gonna play the game.

Hilke Schellmann 38:26 Even though you were like... And he was like, while he was doing it, he was like, "This is weird. Why is it asking me all these questions?"

Trevor Noah 38:31 It sounds like the beginning of a horror movie.

Hilke Schellmann 38:32 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 38:32 "Do you want to play a game?"

Hilke Schellmann 38:34 Why do I have to do this? Like, it sounds great, and I think a lot of applicants technically like it better than answering 100 questions about, like, "Are you the life of the party?" Like, I'd rather pop up balloons. Um, but when you realize, wait, is this the only criterion I'm gonna be judged on, how well I, like, pop balloons? Or, like, uh, in, in, in, in, in one of the games I had to hit the space bar as fast as possible, and while I was doing that, I was like-

Trevor Noah 38:57 Just like da, da, da, da, da, da, da

Hilke Schellmann 38:57 ... ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, you get, like, 15 seconds or so to do that, and I was like, "What does that have to do with the job?" Like, in what jobs do you have to hit the space bar as fast as possible? Like-

Trevor Noah 39:05 Maybe it's like a company where, like, there's, like, big gaps between people's names. Maybe there's like-

Hilke Schellmann 39:10 [laughs] One of the, one of the-

Trevor Noah 39:10 Maybe you're working at a company where it's like Suspenseful Pause Incorporated.

Hilke Schellmann 39:13 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 39:13 Maybe it's like... I mean, I wanna know what this job is now-

Hilke Schellmann 39:17 Yeah

Trevor Noah 39:17 ... where somebody out there is just like, "Ugh."

Hilke Schellmann 39:19 Yeah. But, but you sort of think-

Trevor Noah 39:19 Maybe it's a company, maybe it's a company that had to cut costs because all the enters, the enters on the keyboards were broken, and now they have to hire people who can use space-

Hilke Schellmann 39:28 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 39:28 ... to get to the next line, 'cause you can't just press return.

Hilke Schellmann 39:31 Well-

Trevor Noah 39:31 You can't just press, come on, come on. And then that boss is like, "You know what we need? We need people who can press the space bar."

Hilke Schellmann 39:37 Well-

Trevor Noah 39:37 "Get me the fastest space bar pressers in the world." [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 39:41 [laughs] We found them. We found them. But you know, I mean, what's interesting, like, that actually, that suite, suite of games was, was used by, like, multinational companies around the world.

Trevor Noah 39:49 Like, we're talking, like, legitimate... Not some random company.

Hilke Schellmann 39:52 Hm.

Trevor Noah 39:52 You're saying this is used by, like, big name companies, how fast can you press a space bar, and that-

Hilke Schellmann 39:58 This is one of the many games-

Trevor Noah 39:59 As one of the tests

Hilke Schellmann 39:59 ... that you have to, have to, have to play. And you know, they say they're not actually, like, looking at your capabilities of hitting the space bar. It's, like, finding out how much, like, uh, you know, how risk-averse you are, like, what your personality is underneath this. Um, like, are you somebody who likes challenges or not? Um, I guess the space bar is sort of-

Trevor Noah 40:16 Who takes any order that you're given

Hilke Schellmann 40:17 ... a thing.

Trevor Noah 40:17 I'm sure even the-

Hilke Schellmann 40:18 That kind of stuff

Trevor Noah 40:18 ... the, the time between you deciding are you gonna press the space button or not actually maybe counts. You know?

Hilke Schellmann 40:24 Oh, that's interesting.

Trevor Noah 40:24 Did, did you really think about this instruction?

Hilke Schellmann 40:27 I don't, I don't know if that counts, but I did talk to industrial psy- um, uh, industrial organizational psychologist, uh, who said, "Yeah, we looked at all of those things, and actually the people that take longer, um, until they start playing-"

Trevor Noah 40:39 Wow

Hilke Schellmann 40:39 ... "they're actually less successful." But he said, "We are not using that, uh, criteria." Um-

Trevor Noah 40:45 Called it, my man. Touched my feet.

Hilke Schellmann 40:47 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 40:47 Called it. You called it.

Hilke Schellmann 40:50 You did call it.

Trevor Noah 40:51 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 40:51 Um, but, um, so we don't know exactly, but you know, all of these, like, every space bar hit and everything that I do obviously, uh, gets recorded somehow and can be used. But the question is, like, you know, on a good day, our personality is such a low predictive measure to measure how good we are gonna be in a job, because it also turns out, like, I can overcome things in my personality, right? Like, I don't know if any one of you have-

Trevor Noah 41:15 Yeah, yeah

Hilke Schellmann 41:15 ... like, I try to... You know, I used to be, like, really shy. I didn't like to talk to strangers. Um, I know it's part of my job. Um, I like calling people on the phone and chatting with them, but, like-

Trevor Noah 41:25 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 41:25 ... going to, like, like, a party, like a reception with actual people I don't know, and, like-

Trevor Noah 41:30 Sounds like us

Hilke Schellmann 41:31 ... going up to them is like, "Ugh."

Trevor Noah 41:33 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 41:33 I used to hate it, and then I was like, "It's part of my job," and I made it, I made it a game to challenge myself.

Trevor Noah 41:39 Oh.

Hilke Schellmann 41:39 So I was like-

Trevor Noah 41:40 You made the game

Hilke Schellmann 41:40 ... I'm gonna... I make ba- games for myself.

Trevor Noah 41:42 What did you do? You just walked into parties with a keyboard, and you were like, "How fast can you hit this space bar?"

Hilke Schellmann 41:46 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 41:48 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 41:48 You win. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 41:50 Nice to meet you.

Hilke Schellmann 41:51 Here's a drink.

Trevor Noah 41:51 Nice to meet you. I'm Hilke. We can be friends.

Hilke Schellmann 41:53 This is, this is my research.

Trevor Noah 41:55 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 41:55 Um [laughs]

Trevor Noah 41:57 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 41:57 Oh. Uh, that would be... I, I should've done that. That would've been much more interesting-

Trevor Noah 42:03 But what were the games?

Hilke Schellmann 42:03 ... a conversation.

Trevor Noah 42:04 What did you, what did you, what did you do?

Hilke Schellmann 42:05 No, no, no. The, the game was that I have to approach strangers and, like, say hi-

Trevor Noah 42:08 Oh, you did this for yourself

Hilke Schellmann 42:09 ... and like, yes, yes. Like, like-

Trevor Noah 42:10 And what, what was your reward?

Hilke Schellmann 42:11 ... we started a conversation. My reward was just like, well, getting to know people and, like, learning about them.

Trevor Noah 42:17 I like this.

Hilke Schellmann 42:18 Um-

Trevor Noah 42:18 So this was how you overcame it for yourself.

Eugene 42:20 Oh.

Trevor Noah 42:20 You went, "I'm afraid of speaking to people, so I'm gonna make it a game where I just walk up to a stranger-

Hilke Schellmann 42:25 Yeah

Trevor Noah 42:25 ... speak." What happened w-

Hilke Schellmann 42:26 That's, that's what I tell my journalism students

Trevor Noah 42:28 ... what happened when it didn't go well?

Hilke Schellmann 42:29 Uh, well, I'm still here. So I was afraid I was gonna get decapitated, right? People are nice and they're like, "What the..." Um, but you know, I'm still here. And, you know, sometimes people were just like, "Eh," and like just left me standing there.

Trevor Noah 42:40 You realize it's not as bad as you thought.

Hilke Schellmann 42:41 And I was like... Yeah.

Eugene 42:42 Yes. But you see, this is AI again, um, having... Let's say if this was a program, you would score higher because you're a woman. It's easier for a woman to do that than a man to do that.

Trevor Noah 42:51 Oh, that's interesting.

Eugene 42:52 So if, if I walk to, into a, a random room and there's a bunch of women there and I'm like, "Hey, guys," [laughs]

Trevor Noah 42:58 You wanna-

Eugene 42:58 "Aren't you playing a game where I'm trying to be social?"

Trevor Noah 43:01 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 43:01 [laughs]

Eugene 43:02 Like, uh, stranger danger, psycho.

Hilke Schellmann 43:05 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 43:05 Oh, man.

Eugene 43:06 But for w-

Hilke Schellmann 43:06 [laughs]

Eugene 43:08 [laughs] For, for a woman it's much easier, so the biases ke- kick in again. If I go to a miswe- Midwest town as a Black man from Africa, and I walk in there and there's truckers, and I go, "Howdy, folks," no one's gonna say hi to me. So-

Trevor Noah 43:20 That was a good howdy, though.

Hilke Schellmann 43:21 Yeah.

Eugene 43:22 You like that?

Trevor Noah 43:23 That was a decent howdy.

Hilke Schellmann 43:23 You nailed that.

Eugene 43:24 Howdy, folks.

Hilke Schellmann 43:24 You nailed that.

Trevor Noah 43:25 I, I mean, if my eyes were closed when you walked in-

Eugene 43:28 Close your eyes now. Howdy, folks.

Trevor Noah 43:30 Hey, who's that over there?

Hilke Schellmann 43:31 That was not bad. That was not bad.

Eugene 43:32 How-

Trevor Noah 43:32 I'm, I'm in.

Eugene 43:33 Done.

Trevor Noah 43:33 Once I look up-

Hilke Schellmann 43:34 [laughs]

Eugene 43:35 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 43:35 ... things might change.

Hilke Schellmann 43:36 Um-

Eugene 43:36 So you see how biases is informing how the, uh, w- what the outcome ends up being?

Hilke Schellmann 43:42 Well, well, but-

Eugene 43:42 'Cause even with that experiment right here

Hilke Schellmann 43:42 ... but it, but it wasn't a bias challenge. It was just, like, a personality, like, overcome challenge, right? Because we all have, like, certain things that we like to do and we don't like to do. Um-

Eugene 43:50 You were not biased. They were. On the other-

Hilke Schellmann 43:54 Yeah

Eugene 43:54 ... on the receiving side of it, they were like, "Here's a woman. She's smart, she's nice."

Trevor Noah 43:58 Less threatening.

Eugene 43:58 "She's saying hi. Let's..." Y- less threatening.

Trevor Noah 44:00 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 44:00 That's true.

Eugene 44:00 Exactly. So the biases kicked in. So the same applies when an HR manager's sitting across someone who they look at and go, "I wouldn't wanna be stuck with you in an elevator on the 14th floor-

Trevor Noah 44:10 But then, but then that-

Eugene 44:11 ... at 6:00 at night"

Trevor Noah 44:11 ... yeah, but then that raises the question then, is there ever going to be a world without bias? And is that-

Eugene 44:18 No

Trevor Noah 44:18 ... what we should be looking for? Or-

Hilke Schellmann 44:20 I mean, look, we can all wish, but we know that-

Trevor Noah 44:23 Yeah

Hilke Schellmann 44:23 ... that's, that's never gonna happen.

Trevor Noah 44:24 Mm.

Hilke Schellmann 44:24 Like, we hu- we humans are biases machines.

Hilke Schellmann 44:28 Uh-

Trevor Noah 44:28 Yeah, but, but now that the, but now that the machines-

Hilke Schellmann 44:30 [laughs]

Eugene 44:30 You're right

Trevor Noah 44:30 ... but now that the machines are doing the job, could it be possible, and I know, I'm not saying it will, but I'm saying could it be possible that the AI... 'Cause, 'cause here's, here's what I think about in, in what you're talk- in what you're saying. We're living in a world where we know that biases exist.

Hilke Schellmann 44:48 Mm.

Trevor Noah 44:49 We know, right? So whether it's, uh, in courts, whether it's in law enforcement, whether it's in jobs, whether it's-

Hilke Schellmann 44:56 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 44:56 ... in schools.

Hilke Schellmann 44:57 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 44:57 Doesn't matter, we know that bias-

Eugene 44:59 Social settings

Trevor Noah 44:59 ... social set-

Hilke Schellmann 45:00 Mm

Trevor Noah 45:00 ... bias exists, right? Now, AI's gotten involved, and we see the AI mirroring many of our biases.

Hilke Schellmann 45:08 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 45:08 But the difference is, with AI, we can actually see it. We couldn't see it before, and we couldn't, like, prove it. We had to conduct, like, weird studies.

Eugene 45:17 Yes.

Trevor Noah 45:17 We had to... Before, you couldn't say-

Eugene 45:19 Yes

Trevor Noah 45:19 ... this company didn't hire anyone because they didn't say baseball or because they had women-

Hilke Schellmann 45:23 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 45:23 ... or because they said Black.

Hilke Schellmann 45:24 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 45:24 But now you c- you can actually look at the data and go-

Hilke Schellmann 45:26 Yeah

Trevor Noah 45:27 ... "Oh, damn."

Eugene 45:28 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 45:28 And I, I sometimes wonder if it'll be easier, and again, this could be the optimistic side of me, but I, I sometimes wonder if it could be easier for us to address bias in society-

Eugene 45:39 Mm

Trevor Noah 45:39 ... because we actually have concrete data now-

Hilke Schellmann 45:41 Mm

Trevor Noah 45:42 ... that shows it, and we get to blame it. We don't have to blame each other. We'd be like-

Hilke Schellmann 45:44 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 45:45 ... "Oh, my God."

Eugene 45:46 AI.

Trevor Noah 45:46 "Look how racist-

Hilke Schellmann 45:47 The AI

Trevor Noah 45:47 ... the racist AI was to you."

Eugene 45:49 Yes.

Trevor Noah 45:49 I'm sorry, my friend.

Eugene 45:50 HR, HR AI is a Trojan horse. You're right.

Hilke Schellmann 45:52 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 45:52 No, I get... Is there, is there-

Hilke Schellmann 45:53 Um-

Trevor Noah 45:53 Do you, do you, do you see a world where that's possible?

Hilke Schellmann 45:55 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I wish companies would, would, would actually look at these, uh, tools more closely. I think the, the, the, the general notion, though-

Trevor Noah 46:02 Oh, that's interesting

Hilke Schellmann 46:03 ... is they buy it from a vendor. The vendor sort of, like, l- you know, sort of, uh, uh, services the algorithm over time and makes sure they still run, and, uh, there- there's less bias. Like, they check if there's, like, gender and, like, very basic, uh, racial bias in there. But they never look at, like, you know, does it let people with disabilities through-

Trevor Noah 46:20 Oh

Hilke Schellmann 46:20 ... or something like that, right? Like, um, and it also, we don't see a whole lot of companies actually checking how are the decision being made. Um, and I think that's sort of where the problem lies. Like, if we actually, somebody would look at the thousands of keywords resume parsers use to predict, um, if you're gonna be good at the job, they would find those keywords that are learned-

Trevor Noah 46:41 Mm

Hilke Schellmann 46:41 ... from lawyers and other places.

Trevor Noah 46:42 Mm-hmm.

Hilke Schellmann 46:42 And you know, those are keywords we shouldn't be using. We should be looking at, like, your, uh, skills and your capabilities and not if you are on the baseball team or not.

Trevor Noah 46:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 46:51 Like, you know, and I came to this as a human. I remember, like, for the first time talking to a lawyer about this, and I was like, "Well, maybe the AI found something that humans couldn't," that, like, i- in this case, it was playing lacrosse in high school that was, like, a predictor of success. And I was like, "Maybe it found out for this, like, whatever insurance job or sales job-

Trevor Noah 47:07 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 47:08 ... it was really good to play, you know, to play lacrosse in high school. It found this, like, hidden gem that we humans couldn't." And, uh, the lawyer started laughing, and he was like, "God, you think like a human." I was like-

Trevor Noah 47:17 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 47:18 ... "Really? What?"

Eugene 47:19 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 47:19 He's like, "It's a pattern machine. It does a statistical analysis. For whatever reason, like, uh, playing lacrosse in high school, a bunch of people who were in the job had that criterion."

Trevor Noah 47:29 Yeah, because if you're playing l- lacrosse-

Hilke Schellmann 47:29 Um, it doesn't mean-

Trevor Noah 47:30 ... you come from a certain family

Hilke Schellmann 47:31 ... yeah, it doesn't mean-

Trevor Noah 47:32 Yeah

Hilke Schellmann 47:32 ... that, like, lacrosse has anything to do with your success. And in fact, he's like, "Well, if it's, like, playing team sports, what's with all the other team sports?"

Trevor Noah 47:39 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 47:39 Like, why weren't they included?

Trevor Noah 47:40 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 47:40 Why do you get, uh, more points for baseball-

Eugene 47:42 Mm

Hilke Schellmann 47:42 ... and fewer points for softball? But it's essentially, I think as a non-American, it's the same game, just a bigger field.

Trevor Noah 47:50 You see? Hilke's on my team. Minus points for both.

Eugene 47:53 Like how you saw pickleball and racquetball-

Hilke Schellmann 47:55 Oh, beach ball

Eugene 47:56 ... and beach ball.

Hilke Schellmann 47:56 We call it beach ball. Beach, beach ball.

Trevor Noah 47:57 Don't, don't bring pickleball into this, please.

Eugene 47:59 All right.

Hilke Schellmann 47:59 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 47:59 Please. Let's not bring-

Hilke Schellmann 48:01 Trevor doesn't wanna talk about pickleball.

Trevor Noah 48:02 [upbeat music] Don't press anything. We've got more What Now? after this. You know, Eugene-

Eugene 48:11 Mm

Trevor Noah 48:11 ... I don't know about you, man, but sometimes planning a romantic evening is one of the most stressful things, 'cause there's that specific type of performance art that comes with a romantic night out, you know? It's like- You're sitting in a restaurant and you realize you've just paid a premium to have a room of strangers watch you eat bread while you try and have a private conversation. It's exhausting, you know what I mean?

Eugene 48:32 It is.

Trevor Noah 48:32 [sighs] But I realized recently, if you wanna skip the theater and the crowds, Whole Foods Market is the place to plan the perfect indulgent and romantic evening at home. Picture this. You see, you skip the extra trip to the flower shop, and instead you explore the Whole Foods Market floral department, full of gorgeous quality flowers with large blooms, vibrant colors, and strong stems, bunches, bouquets, and even vase arrangements are available. Ooh, why stop there? We can also skip the dinner reservation, start our sizzling hot evening in the kitchen, just us. We could serve a surf and turf made with quality no-antibiotic-ever steaks, plus seafood that must be sustainable, wild-caught, or responsibly farmed. We'll then pair that dinner with a bottle of wine from the incredibly in-depth Whole Foods Market selection. Say cheers with a sparkling rosé or choose ready-to-drink cocktails. Mm, mm, mm. [laughs] [clears throat] Yeah. Must be 21 or older. Please drink responsibly. Taste the love all month at Whole Foods Market. By the way, that wasn't our date.

Eugene 50:02 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 50:02 I just got carried away, and then your hand was there, and then ...

Eugene 50:05 I totally understand, but you know, like they say, there's no free dinners, clearly.

Trevor Noah 50:10 No, you don't owe me anything, Eugene.

Eugene 50:12 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 50:12 We, we, we didn't even have the dinner.

Eugene 50:13 I'm 41. [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 50:20 You know what I realized speaking to you guys about this, 'cause I, I wanted to know as little as possible about the topic so I can get enlightened in real time, is companies-

Hilke Schellmann 50:33 How, how's that going?

Trevor Noah 50:34 Very well.

Hilke Schellmann 50:34 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 50:35 'Cause I, I'm, I'm disc- 'cause I've worked in retail before in South Africa.

Hilke Schellmann 50:38 Oh, yeah, mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 50:38 And, and I've realized that HR has always been the enforcer and the goon of the corporation. 'Cause when you come in, they're the first people to ask you, "What do you like?" But basically they're trying to see, do you wanna fit in here and be here?

Hilke Schellmann 50:49 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 50:49 And where do you come from, first. And then when you get let go, you do what they call an exit interview.

Hilke Schellmann 50:54 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 50:55 And that will help them not hire a person like me ever again.

Eugene 50:58 Damn.

Trevor Noah 50:58 So I use public transport. I went to a township school. So they knew that all of those factors, and my age as well, and how long I stuck around in that job. So they know the propensity of me sticking around longer or doing something wrong or right according to them is based on how long I stayed and where I come from and what changes I've made in my life since I started working there. So they could predict if someone earns this much for this long at this age from this background, the money will start becoming too little for them to be here.

Eugene 51:25 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 51:26 So AI now is doing that at a rapid rate.

Hilke Schellmann 51:29 Yes.

Trevor Noah 51:29 Instead of saying, "We don't want women," it will cut out words like soccer, and blah, and blah, and blah, and blah. And then the people that say those words, maybe they get hired because likelihood is they are men. How many kids do you have? How far from the job you live, and h- what are you willing to do for this job?

Hilke Schellmann 51:46 I was gonna say, like, the, you know, like, um, when you think about it-

Trevor Noah 51:49 Hmm

Hilke Schellmann 51:49 ... like how these kinds of statistics and, and, and prediction works, it's, it, the, it precedes AI by a long time, right? Like, we know statistically that if you have a longer commute to your job site, you are much more likely to quit, statistically.

Trevor Noah 52:04 Hmm. Hmm.

Hilke Schellmann 52:04 But is that fair? And, you know, we've seen companies, um, trying to use this, like zip codes and stuff, to then say like, "Okay, well, we only hire the people that are right, you know, live in the zip code right around our store location because they are less likely to quit." But, like, does that really have ... That, that, that's a criteria. That has nothing to do with the job. It doesn't say anything about your capabilities-

Trevor Noah 52:24 Yeah

Hilke Schellmann 52:24 ... and if you're gonna be good at the job. It may be-

Trevor Noah 52:25 It's a, it only says something about your situation.

Hilke Schellmann 52:27 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 52:27 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 52:27 And, and, you know, and also, like, well, first of all, like, there are people who do the two-hour commute each way, and they do a fabulous job. So you're cutting out all those people.

Trevor Noah 52:37 Right.

Hilke Schellmann 52:37 And it's not their fault. Um, and then on the other hand, y- you also have to look, like, we live in very, um, segregated communities in the United States. There's historical redlining, so if you-

Trevor Noah 52:46 Hmm

Hilke Schellmann 52:46 ... like start taking out zip codes, you might actually, like, take out huge swath of like, um, African American population or A- Asian American population.

Trevor Noah 52:54 I think that's true around the world, to be honest.

Hilke Schellmann 52:55 Yeah, and I think that's-

Trevor Noah 52:56 Doesn't matter where you're from

Hilke Schellmann 52:57 ... a real problem, and we sort of see this kind of, um, uh, statistical bias get replicated again and again. But now we have this, like, layer of-

Trevor Noah 53:05 Hmm

Hilke Schellmann 53:05 ... objectivity, and we don't interrogate the tools, again, to actually-

Trevor Noah 53:11 Plausible deniability to enforce more of the biases.

Hilke Schellmann 53:13 Oh my God, how did you know that? I think it's plausible deniability, um, of the companies that use it and buy from the vendor because then they can't be taken ... You know, it'd be very hard to have a court case where you say like, "Well, you knew that your tool was biasing women."

Trevor Noah 53:29 Oh.

Hilke Schellmann 53:29 "And there's, like, two million people that apply to this, two million women that apply to this company."

Trevor Noah 53:34 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 53:34 "And you used a biased algorithm on them," so suddenly you have, like, po- potentially two million claims. Um, that's why we see, like, sort of what I think is sort of a cloak of silence around this.

Trevor Noah 53:43 Hmm.

Hilke Schellmann 53:44 Because companies also obviously don't wanna come out. Um, you know, I've had so many people who work in HR tell me, like after the book came out, you know, "Oh yeah, we use that tool that you talk about." And we, you know, stopped using it. And I'm like, "Oh, really?" I was like, "Well, that's good. I'm glad you did." They're like, "Yeah, we sort of realized we had the same questions. We found the same things that you found, and, uh, we just didn't think it was fair." And I was like, "Okay. Can you, can you talk about this?" They're like-

Trevor Noah 54:07 Wow

Hilke Schellmann 54:07 ... "Oh, absolutely not." Um, but we need to learn. Like, we'll never get better, we never... We, we can't put pressure on the vendors to build better tools if we don't know how the tools work, um, and, and if there's any problems in the tool. I just looked at a fraction of these tools.

Trevor Noah 54:20 Mm.

Hilke Schellmann 54:20 Like, I tested some of them myself. I worked with, like, scientists to test them. I looked at, like... You know, I spoke with, like, whistleblowers and, like, uh, lawyers who, like, work in the space, but I have just a sliver of the whole, uh, sort of world out there. Like, we need to do a whole lot more, but I don't think it's in, uh, the company's interest. They want something that, uh, you know, like, sort of saves them money in HR.

Trevor Noah 54:42 Mm-hmm.

Hilke Schellmann 54:42 It's always a cost center. HR never generates money, or talent acquisition, however you wanna call it. And, uh, so in, in a way, they wanna save more money, have less, uh, labor involved, and they don't wanna, like, hire people who know stuff. Like, picking apart the algorithms, then, you know, then they might not work, and w- what are they gonna do then? They just spent so much money in it. Um-

Trevor Noah 54:59 So when, when you... So when you look at what they're doing-

Hilke Schellmann 55:01 Mm

Trevor Noah 55:03 ... you know, it, it seems like... And, and maybe I'm going to a dystopian conclusion, but I, I've read through some of the companies that you've investigated and some of the tools that they've used. It feels like it's becoming more and more pervasive. So-

Hilke Schellmann 55:17 Mm

Trevor Noah 55:17 ... first companies just looked at what you submitted to them, your resume.

Hilke Schellmann 55:21 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 55:22 Then companies started scrubbing what the world knew about you. And then now because of the way data is shared, I'm even seeing stories where they're saying some companies may be able to go, you know, as far as your social media. I mean, one of the craziest examples I saw, which I don't know how true it is, is, like, like, your Uber rating is a possibility in a future, which sounds like something China was doing or trialing, by the way.

Hilke Schellmann 55:45 Yeah, with, uh, with, uh-

Trevor Noah 55:48 Mm

Hilke Schellmann 55:48 ... uh, uh, social, um-

Trevor Noah 55:48 Yes, remember that, where, like-

Hilke Schellmann 55:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Trevor Noah 55:49 ... basically where-

Eugene 55:50 No way

Hilke Schellmann 55:50 ... social score, yeah

Trevor Noah 55:51 ... in China you could-

Hilke Schellmann 55:51 If you have a high social score-

Trevor Noah 55:52 Yes

Hilke Schellmann 55:52 ... you get to travel, and you get, like, certain benefits of society. But if you, like, jaywalk-

Trevor Noah 55:57 Yeah, like-

Hilke Schellmann 55:57 Or you visit grandma.

Eugene 55:59 That's me. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 56:00 No, really.

Hilke Schellmann 56:00 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 56:00 And so-

Hilke Schellmann 56:01 Yeah

Trevor Noah 56:01 ... but now when I-

Eugene 56:01 No way

Trevor Noah 56:01 ... when I think of that-

Hilke Schellmann 56:02 Yeah

Trevor Noah 56:02 ... I'm like w- like, are we heading towards a world where a company can hire you or fire you-

Hilke Schellmann 56:08 Based on-

Trevor Noah 56:08 ... looking at your Spotify playlist, going, "Oh-

Hilke Schellmann 56:10 [laughs]

Eugene 56:11 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 56:11 ... this? Oh, no.

Eugene 56:13 That's good.

Trevor Noah 56:13 Oh, no."

Hilke Schellmann 56:13 Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, l- look, some psychologists say-

Eugene 56:16 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 56:16 ... that, like, the way we behave is very predictive. And they can certain, find certain ways... Like, there was a, um [lips smack] there was a, a, a, a big finding a f- a, a few years ago, and I think it was, like, uh, that a lot of computer scientists are really into manga comics. Um, so-

Eugene 56:33 Mm

Hilke Schellmann 56:33 ... the question is, like, well, if you look at, then, resumes, should you hire the people that like mangas? And, um, because you know they're gonna be good computer scientists.

Trevor Noah 56:41 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Hilke Schellmann 56:41 But what is it with the people who are great computer scientists who just are not into manga? Like, that's not fair, uh, to those people, right?

Eugene 56:48 Mm.

Hilke Schellmann 56:48 So, like, that's sort of the problem with these shortcuts. But I sort of do feel like-

Eugene 56:51 And, and there's-

Hilke Schellmann 56:51 ... there is a dystopian-

Eugene 56:53 ... different points

Hilke Schellmann 56:53 ... vision that, like, um, you know, I sort of felt like at one point, I was like, wow, maybe at one point we're just not even gonna do a job interview anymore. A company will just tell you if you're hired or fired or if they don't want you based on all of the social exhaust, the data exhaust we sort of leave around. And, and companies can predict who we are. Um, turns out we did test the, uh, uh, sort of personality testing that is being used on social media. It doesn't work. Um-

Trevor Noah 57:21 No

Hilke Schellmann 57:21 ... but it's still being used. It doesn't actually stop people from using shitty technology. That's sort of the ba- bad part here, right? Like, these are very-

Trevor Noah 57:29 But it doesn't actually work to predict what the people-

Hilke Schellmann 57:31 Mm

Trevor Noah 57:31 ... are doing. It does make me think of a dystopian world, though. Like, just this idea that you'll be hired before you've applied for a job.

Hilke Schellmann 57:39 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 57:40 I just think of, like, us in the year 3000 or something, and a van just pulls up. [laughs] The door opens, and they're just like, "Welcome to the job, Eugene. We know you by the..." [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 57:51 [laughs]

Eugene 57:51 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 57:51 "We know you better than you know yourself, soldier." And you're like, "What are you talking about?"

Hilke Schellmann 57:55 Yeah.

Eugene 57:55 But you might not even be wrong. In my conspiracy mind, I'm thinking that AI tools are just a big giant facade for data harvesting. Companies know if what they're offering to the public is still viable. Learning institutions know who are the most likely candidates for them to start giving or keep giving the courses that they're giving because we forget that higher learning institutions are just businesses as well.

Trevor Noah 58:21 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 58:21 Oh, yeah, totally.

Eugene 58:22 Yeah, so-

Hilke Schellmann 58:22 And some of them use this kind of technology, like one-

Eugene 58:25 To find out who's still interested

Hilke Schellmann 58:25 ... one-way video interviews. Like, um, and, um, yeah, I mean, I think, I think what fundamentally comes down to, it's kind of funny. What, what I have learned by, like, bringing AI into the talent acquisition hiring space, I learned, like, how bad our old processes are.

Eugene 58:39 Mm.

Hilke Schellmann 58:39 Like, job interviews, actually really bad, um, because you are, uh... It sort of filters out the people who are good about talking-

Eugene 58:47 Mm

Hilke Schellmann 58:47 ... about doing the job.

Eugene 58:48 As opposed to doing the job.

Hilke Schellmann 58:50 So we have this, like, competence versus confidence problem. Like, people who, like, come off as, like-

Eugene 58:54 Yes

Hilke Schellmann 58:54 ... confident, we often think, like, "Well, that person speaks so confidently-

Eugene 58:57 They must be-

Hilke Schellmann 58:57 ... about the... They must be really good." It turns out, like, that are more often than not men. Um, and that doesn't mean actually they're competent. So we sometimes complain-

Eugene 59:06 What? Us men?

Hilke Schellmann 59:06 [laughs]

Eugene 59:07 No.

Hilke Schellmann 59:08 Never.

Eugene 59:09 What?

Hilke Schellmann 59:09 [laughs]

Eugene 59:10 Us?

Hilke Schellmann 59:10 So, you know. [laughs]

Eugene 59:12 Mm-hmm. Little old us, Hilke? No.

Hilke Schellmann 59:15 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 59:16 [laughs]

Eugene 59:16 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 59:17 As always, not all men, but a lot. Um-

Eugene 59:20 Us little old men-

Hilke Schellmann 59:21 [laughs]

Eugene 59:22 ... ooh, acting like we know more than we do? Us?

Hilke Schellmann 59:24 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 59:26 [laughs]

Eugene 59:26 Ooh, come on, Hilke. Ooh. [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 59:28 Mansplaining. What? [laughs]

Trevor Noah 59:33 [laughs]

Eugene 59:33 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 59:34 Um-

Eugene 59:34 Wait, I think, [laughs] I think this is highlighting yet again the same point again of saying that biases have gotten us this far. I've often heard people go, "If I'm in a criminal trial, and I'm thinking of what kind of lawyer to get, I want someone who's, who's talkative, who's out there, who's loud."

Trevor Noah 59:49 Yeah.

Eugene 59:49 "But the person who handles my finances must be quiet, you know, reserved and frugal, and they'll know how to handle my finances." You know what I'm saying? So, uh-

Hilke Schellmann 59:57 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Eugene 59:57 ... we ha- we have an idea-

Hilke Schellmann 59:58 I've never heard about this talkative lawyer, but I'm sort of-

Eugene 1:00:00 Yeah, yeah

Hilke Schellmann 1:00:00 ... gonna give you-

Trevor Noah 1:00:00 We have an idea

Eugene 1:00:01 ... you are someone who goes-

Hilke Schellmann 1:00:01 Yeah

Eugene 1:00:02 ... razzle-dazzle.

Trevor Noah 1:00:02 Yeah.

Eugene 1:00:02 We've seen the lawyers that, that represent rappers-

Trevor Noah 1:00:05 Charisma

Eugene 1:00:05 ... and they... Yeah, charisma.

Hilke Schellmann 1:00:06 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:00:06 Yeah, you, you want... Uh, and it, it's interesting to, to exactly what you're saying. If I hear you correctly, you're saying- In a, in a way, it seems like we are expanding and scaling on a foundation that was already broken.

Hilke Schellmann 1:00:19 Yes. Absolutely. Um, the way we hired was already broken. Like, job interviews-

Trevor Noah 1:00:23 Yes

Hilke Schellmann 1:00:23 ... are broken. Like, sort of-

Trevor Noah 1:00:24 Mm

Hilke Schellmann 1:00:24 ... looking at... And, you know, resumes are very, have very little predictability, 'cause, you know, like, y- you put certain, like, things. You need to have this skill and this skill in, in the job, and then, and, and you put that on everyone who applies for the job, 99% of the people will have that on their resume. Um, so... And you can't find, like, things like teamwork. Are you a good collaborator?

Trevor Noah 1:00:45 Yeah, you don't know.

Hilke Schellmann 1:00:46 How are you gonna know that from a resume? How are you gonna know that from a job interview? You can ask, like, questions like, "Well, tell me how you overcome, uh, you know, really a challenging situation at work." And, but you can, you can train for that. Like, the best way-

Trevor Noah 1:00:58 Mm

Hilke Schellmann 1:00:58 ... you know, one of the best way to predict if you're gonna be successful, this will come to no surprise to anyone, is to put you in the job, uh, and then you can find out if you're gonna be good at the job.

Trevor Noah 1:01:07 Hey.

Hilke Schellmann 1:01:07 That is... Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:01:08 Look at that.

Hilke Schellmann 1:01:09 Totally doesn't-

Trevor Noah 1:01:10 Ah

Hilke Schellmann 1:01:10 ... work for most companies to hire 100 people and then let, let 99 go at the end of the month. Uh, but sort of my hope sometimes is, like, wait a second, like, we have virtual reality. Like, we have other ways. Like, could we put people in the jobs and actually have them do the jobs, the most important parts of the jobs, um, and then figure out, like, are they gonna be good?

Trevor Noah 1:01:28 And just see how they actually are at the job.

Hilke Schellmann 1:01:29 Yeah. And I think that would also give candidates a way to sort of understand better, what is this job actually?

Trevor Noah 1:01:34 That is-

Hilke Schellmann 1:01:34 'Cause it turns out-

Trevor Noah 1:01:35 This is... Have you suggested this to companies? 'Cause this is-

Eugene 1:01:37 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:01:37 ... I like this idea.

Eugene 1:01:38 You.

Trevor Noah 1:01:38 No, I really do.

Hilke Schellmann 1:01:40 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:01:40 You. I really do.

Hilke Schellmann 1:01:40 I do.

Eugene 1:01:40 Thanks so much.

Hilke Schellmann 1:01:40 I mean, I th- I think it turns... Uh, you know-

Trevor Noah 1:01:42 Yes

Hilke Schellmann 1:01:42 ... I do think it is a little bit more complicated than just what I'm saying, 'cause, you know, like a lot of jobs-

Trevor Noah 1:01:47 But it's, it's the first step

Hilke Schellmann 1:01:47 ... have different... Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:01:48 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 1:01:48 They have, like-

Trevor Noah 1:01:49 Giant step

Hilke Schellmann 1:01:49 ... different, uh, capabilities and dif- different things that you have to test for.

Trevor Noah 1:01:52 Right.

Hilke Schellmann 1:01:53 Um, and some of that is, is hard to test. But we need to be better, or some, like, total cynics in this world have sort of suggested, "You know what? If you wanna hire, use a random number generator, because that is at least fair. You have the same fair chance as you, you, you-

Trevor Noah 1:02:07 A lottery system

Hilke Schellmann 1:02:07 ... um, to, to get, to get, uh, picked."

Trevor Noah 1:02:11 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 1:02:11 Uh, obviously everyone is like-

Trevor Noah 1:02:12 It's also a way to go bankrupt as a company. I mean, that's, like, a... Hoo. I'm all for, like, r- but that's also, like, chaos. There's random and then there's chaos.

Eugene 1:02:20 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:02:20 You know what I mean? If you're gonna say to people, "Do you have a random number? Just bring the person in," uh, yeah, I don't, I don't-

Hilke Schellmann 1:02:27 If they have the basic capabilities, 'cause, you know-

Trevor Noah 1:02:29 Oh, okay. So you're going-

Hilke Schellmann 1:02:30 ... how would you know?

Trevor Noah 1:02:30 Okay, so you're going basic capabilities, and then, like, you've got the qualifications-

Eugene 1:02:33 Then you get a lottery of... Oh, yeah

Trevor Noah 1:02:34 ... then it's random.

Hilke Schellmann 1:02:34 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:02:34 Oh, I'm in for that.

Eugene 1:02:35 Okay, okay.

Trevor Noah 1:02:35 I'm down.

Hilke Schellmann 1:02:35 Yeah. Try that.

Trevor Noah 1:02:36 I'm down.

Hilke Schellmann 1:02:37 Um-

Trevor Noah 1:02:37 Wait, so b- but, but, you know what I wanna move on to is, like, the... We're talking a lot about hiring.

Hilke Schellmann 1:02:42 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:02:43 Your work really delves into keeping the job, which I think a lot of people-

Eugene 1:02:48 Mm

Hilke Schellmann 1:02:48 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:02:48 ... aren't aware of, and might even be more terrified to find out about.

Hilke Schellmann 1:02:53 Oh, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:02:54 Like-

Hilke Schellmann 1:02:54 What we see with the surveillance at work.

Trevor Noah 1:02:55 Yeah, like, like for instance-

Hilke Schellmann 1:02:56 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:02:56 ... and, and I, I know there was an explosion of this during COVID.

Hilke Schellmann 1:02:59 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:02:59 Once people were working remote, and then companies were like, "We need software to know whether people are actually in their underpants or not, and we need to figure out, like, what people are doing at home." But now-

Eugene 1:03:09 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:03:09 ... companies are starting to deploy AIs that not only see how, like, active you are, but they try to predict whether or not the company should fire you, not based on what you're doing now, but what the company thinks you might want to-

Hilke Schellmann 1:03:22 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:03:22 ... maybe do or not do.

Hilke Schellmann 1:03:23 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:03:23 Like-

Hilke Schellmann 1:03:23 I mean, I think it's often, like... You know, it's called, like, a, um, a, a digital neighbor or something. Like, sort of like the, the, the idea is, like, you are a vice president of sales of North America, so there might be a vice president of sales in, in Europe.

Trevor Noah 1:03:37 Okay.

Hilke Schellmann 1:03:37 And one of them is, like, uh, might be more, um, successful or not. That's actually kind of vague and hard. Um, but for this, the sake of this, this example, we'll assume, okay, maybe, maybe the, the, uh, the European person is, is better at their job. And so then, an AI will, like, sort of take in all of the digital traces that you leave, how many emails you send, how many Zoom meetings you attend. Are you a bully in Zoom meetings? Do you speak up? Like, it can kind of, uh, assess, um, a lot of different things, and then tell the person in the US, like, "Hey, the person that has your job in Europe and, like, sells more or whatever-

Trevor Noah 1:04:11 Wow

Hilke Schellmann 1:04:11 ... like, is more successful, they do this. Why aren't you doing that?"

Trevor Noah 1:04:14 Damn.

Hilke Schellmann 1:04:14 It's sort of like a clone of, like, looking at all of their... Everything that gets recorded. And, um, you know, it's sort of like, I don't know. We have different ways to be successful. Like, maybe you write-

Trevor Noah 1:04:25 Yeah

Hilke Schellmann 1:04:26 ... 500 emails. The next person is successful by doing, like, 100, uh, in-person meetings a week. That's probably not possible, but, you know, maybe they do 50 a week. Who knows? Um, but we sort of... And, you know, what does it mean to be successful? Like, we had this, like, whole thing, um, probably don't remember this, and I might be dating myself, but there used to be, like, algorithms in New York City to assess teachers, like, 20 years ago or so. Like, every, uh, parent was like, "I wanna know how good my teacher is." Well, it turns out, like, these algorithms were terrible.

Trevor Noah 1:04:54 Mm.

Hilke Schellmann 1:04:54 And, and a lot of p- teachers were, like, put in rubber rooms, uh, because their, their students didn't gain enough knowledge in a year. Um, but it could be that they were already at the top.

Trevor Noah 1:05:04 Wait, the teachers were put in what?

Hilke Schellmann 1:05:06 They're called rubber rooms. When, like, when, like, teachers were not in the classroom anymore, but they were still on the payroll of the Department of Education, they called them rubber rooms at the time.

Trevor Noah 1:05:14 Rubber rooms.

Hilke Schellmann 1:05:16 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:05:16 Oh.

Hilke Schellmann 1:05:16 I don't think-

Trevor Noah 1:05:16 'Cause in my head I was, like, picturing a room that has, like-

Hilke Schellmann 1:05:18 You had to go somewhere to work

Trevor Noah 1:05:19 ... that's like a room made out of rubber? What, what, like... What, what is-

Hilke Schellmann 1:05:22 No, it sounds like a cell. I think it was in a cell. Um-

Trevor Noah 1:05:24 It... Okay, no, 'cause I... You just went through that. You were like, "They put the teachers in rubber rooms," and then I was like, "Wait, they did what to them?"

Hilke Schellmann 1:05:30 Yeah. So-

Eugene 1:05:30 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:05:30 Or they just called it a rubber room.

Hilke Schellmann 1:05:32 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:05:32 Huh.

Hilke Schellmann 1:05:33 I don't actually know the history of that. Good question.

Trevor Noah 1:05:35 Yeah, I wanna know w- what-

Hilke Schellmann 1:05:36 Um, you wanna know about the rubber rooms now.

Trevor Noah 1:05:37 Yeah, no, no.

Hilke Schellmann 1:05:37 Um-

Trevor Noah 1:05:37 I'm try... If someone's taking me to a rubber room, I wanna know what a rubber room is.

Eugene 1:05:40 I would actually-

Trevor Noah 1:05:41 You would love to go to a-

Eugene 1:05:42 ... take you to the rubber room.

Trevor Noah 1:05:43 Oh, wow.

Hilke Schellmann 1:05:44 Oh, my God.

Eugene 1:05:44 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:05:45 Wow.

Hilke Schellmann 1:05:45 I don't, I don't, I don't know if I wanna go there.

Trevor Noah 1:05:47 Wow.

Eugene 1:05:47 You're gonna get paid for free.

Trevor Noah 1:05:49 Et tu? Et tu?

Eugene 1:05:49 You don't have to do nothing.

Trevor Noah 1:05:50 Et tu?

Eugene 1:05:51 Wouldn't you wanna be in a rubber room at some point?

Hilke Schellmann 1:05:52 Play, play squash.

Eugene 1:05:53 Play-

Hilke Schellmann 1:05:53 Pickleball

Eugene 1:05:54 ... good place in a rubber room.

Trevor Noah 1:05:55 Good place to fall in a rubber room.

Eugene 1:05:56 I s- [laughs] I still can't-

Trevor Noah 1:05:58 Good place to fall

Eugene 1:05:58 ... I still can't believe how... Digital peeping Tom and the digital tattletales is just everywhere now.

Hilke Schellmann 1:06:04 Yeah, it is everywhere. I mean, you know, it starts, like, super benign with, like, your, your green light on your email. Like, are you active or not? That's sort of, like, a way.

Trevor Noah 1:06:11 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 1:06:11 Um, and, and, and, and then we see when people realize, oh, everything gets, gets recorded, um, we see sort of what we call productivity theater. Um, you know, that people, like-

Eugene 1:06:22 Slow it down

Trevor Noah 1:06:23 Did you say productivity theater?

Hilke Schellmann 1:06:25 Yeah. It's like, like sort of gaming the algorithms. Um, so you sort of-

Trevor Noah 1:06:31 So like acting like we're busy.

Hilke Schellmann 1:06:32 Exactly. So like in the morning-

Trevor Noah 1:06:34 Hmm

Hilke Schellmann 1:06:34 ... like you check in on Slack and be like, "Hey everyone. Good morning." Like 7:45.

Trevor Noah 1:06:39 I-

Hilke Schellmann 1:06:39 Crazy

Trevor Noah 1:06:40 [laughs] Oh, no.

Hilke Schellmann 1:06:40 And then you turn around and take your dog for a walk, and then you don't show up at your desk at 10:00. But smoking screens. You were, like you were productive at 7:45. Uh, well, you know, an algorithm will now be able to, uh, understand that you haven't sent any emails in an hour.

Trevor Noah 1:06:55 Can I tell you what you've just done, though? You have, in a single sentence, unraveled one of the greatest mysteries I have struggled with working in an office. I remember the first time, and only time, I worked in an office, I was always shocked by how some people were just constantly sending emails and messages, and I always felt like they were unnecessary, and they were always at random times, something, sometimes on a weekend, some... I was like, "What are... " But now when you, when you put it that way-

Hilke Schellmann 1:07:29 Hmm

Trevor Noah 1:07:29 ... I go, they weren't working, they were trying to maintain the appearance of working. Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 1:07:35 Productivity theater.

Trevor Noah 1:07:36 So it's just like, yeah, you send a message at 6:00 AM, and people are like, "Man, you up at 6:00 AM?"

Hilke Schellmann 1:07:40 Yeah. Wow. Emails at 3:00 AM. What the?

Trevor Noah 1:07:43 Ah.

Hilke Schellmann 1:07:43 Um, you know-

Trevor Noah 1:07:43 Well, you just don't stop working.

Hilke Schellmann 1:07:45 Yeah. And, you know, I, I do think that like-

Trevor Noah 1:07:47 Meanwhile, you just left the club. [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 1:07:50 [laughs]

Eugene 1:07:50 Send.

Hilke Schellmann 1:07:51 Schedule, schedule send.

Eugene 1:07:53 Schedule send.

Hilke Schellmann 1:07:53 Schedule send.

Trevor Noah 1:07:53 Sch- oh, schedule s- look at this.

Hilke Schellmann 1:07:56 Yeah. But, you know, think about it like the, the, the office was like sort of, uh, always a place to look for productivity, right?

Trevor Noah 1:08:02 Mm-hmm.

Hilke Schellmann 1:08:02 Because you had a manager look at everyone who was working, and if you left early-

Trevor Noah 1:08:07 Uh

Hilke Schellmann 1:08:07 ... that was not so good.

Trevor Noah 1:08:08 Yep.

Hilke Schellmann 1:08:09 Um, even though, you know, we know that some people just like sat at their computer, surfed the internet, and didn't do any work. But they were physically at their seats.

Trevor Noah 1:08:15 Yes.

Hilke Schellmann 1:08:15 We didn't have the technology to actually like sort of see every one of their clicks and what they're doing. Um, and now we do. And sort of we can sort of, uh, look at everything you do. But like the question is like is this kind of analysis really meaningful to understand how many emails you sent? Does that actually have anything to do if you are productive or successful?

Trevor Noah 1:08:37 Right, with your efficacy.

Hilke Schellmann 1:08:37 And what does successful in this, in this job mean?

Trevor Noah 1:08:40 Those, those computer systems you're speaking about, I remember reading about how warehouses also using it. Like this is, this is something that I hope people understand will be pervasive across all jobs. 'Cause if you work in an office where you're using a computer, they can track your clicks. They can track your, your typing, see what you're doing and how you're doing it. But in warehouses-

Hilke Schellmann 1:09:01 Oh, yeah

Trevor Noah 1:09:01 ... I've seen that now they're deploying-

Hilke Schellmann 1:09:03 Oh, yeah

Trevor Noah 1:09:03 ... AI camera systems that see how many employees take bathroom breaks or don't take bathroom-

Eugene 1:09:08 No.

Trevor Noah 1:09:09 I swear. How, how long you spend in the bathroom, how f- quickly you actually move one package over to the next, how... And they look at that-

Hilke Schellmann 1:09:17 Yeah, productivity algorithms. How many of like items do you put in a box per minute, per hour?

Trevor Noah 1:09:21 Yes.

Hilke Schellmann 1:09:21 And if you fall under those-

Trevor Noah 1:09:21 Now imagine your bladder, your bladder is the reason that you, because you've got a smaller bladder than another person, you're getting fired.

Hilke Schellmann 1:09:29 I, technically that would be illegal, but yes.

Trevor Noah 1:09:31 Yeah, but they wouldn't say it's because of that.

Hilke Schellmann 1:09:32 But we would know, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:09:33 You, because they would just go like, "You take excessive bathroom breaks."

Hilke Schellmann 1:09:35 Yeah, or you're have, you're falling under your productivity algorithm.

Trevor Noah 1:09:38 Exactly, because the other people around you, they're hitting these numbers. Why aren't you hitting those numbers?

Eugene 1:09:42 As a conspiracy theorist, I'll always say, who, who, Hilke, is benefiting from, from this? Who is-

Trevor Noah 1:09:49 Cha-ching.

Eugene 1:09:49 Because I, I look at, at COVID, and you explained to me how tough COVID was in this city.

Trevor Noah 1:09:54 Yeah.

Eugene 1:09:55 But if you look around the world, how many running shoes have suddenly become in fashion, how many running clubs, how many running apps are being used, how many outdoor activities, hiking, you name it, that people are now having invested themselves in and investing a ton of money in because they missed being outside so much because it was taken away from them. Could it be that people that fund startups are now having the time of their life because they realize there's these educated people who are trying to get into the job market with these kind of expertise and these kind of interests, but maybe they're not gonna get in there, so how about we give them a hand and make money out of them?

Hilke Schellmann 1:10:31 Sure. I mean, I think, like the way we see, like this kind of technology benefit is usually, uh, the companies, because that's where the money is, right? Like, is, is an individual like gonna buy-

Eugene 1:10:42 Always follow the money

Hilke Schellmann 1:10:42 ... a success company, like ex- success AI? Like we, we don't really see it. It's not really a market, right? Like this, the same way for like job applicants. There's like, there is some AI where you can sort of test your resume and the job description.

Eugene 1:10:55 Mm.

Hilke Schellmann 1:10:56 Um, but we see like vastly outnumbered, um, AI for like vendors, uh, the, the, the people that make the employment decisions, those folks, because that's where the money is. Like I sometimes dream of like, you know, we were talking about bias, and I was like, "You know, wouldn't it be cool if you have like a bias detector in job interviews-

Eugene 1:11:13 Hmm

Hilke Schellmann 1:11:13 ... that pings the hiring manager? Like, 'Stop talking about your schooling.'" Like, uh, you know, this is like where bias creeps in. Or at least analyze afterwards, so you get like real-time feedback. Like, "Hey, you shouldn't really ask those questions. Like st- stick with the structured interviews," in a job interview, for example. And we don't see that, because I don't think there's really a market there, um-

Eugene 1:11:34 Yet

Hilke Schellmann 1:11:34 ... to do that yet. Um, you know, I sometimes feel like, you know, wouldn't it be cool, like I, I have a young kid. So like if you're like a parent and you have a little AI who's like, "Hey, you really shouldn't get so upset with your kid."

Eugene 1:11:47 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 1:11:47 "You should really say-

Eugene 1:11:48 Good luck with that

Hilke Schellmann 1:11:49 ... 'I like how you did this and this.'"

Eugene 1:11:50 [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 1:11:50 But like I think a lot of parents wouldn't want to do that because as soon as you have the data-

Eugene 1:11:54 Mm-hmm

Hilke Schellmann 1:11:55 ... somebody else, like Child Protective Services or wherever, can come in-

Trevor Noah 1:11:59 Yeah, they show up

Hilke Schellmann 1:11:59 ... and look at that and be like, "The way you talk to your kid."

Trevor Noah 1:12:02 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 1:12:02 "No good."

Trevor Noah 1:12:03 You're not-

Hilke Schellmann 1:12:03 Like no one wants that, right?

Trevor Noah 1:12:04 You're not fit to be a parent.

Hilke Schellmann 1:12:05 Um-

Trevor Noah 1:12:05 "We'd love to hire you as a manager at our company." [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 1:12:08 [laughs]

Eugene 1:12:08 "How's your bladder?" [laughs]

Hilke Schellmann 1:12:11 You have the, you have the personality to enforce the algorithm. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:12:14 So actually, let's, let's, let's talk about that, then.

Hilke Schellmann 1:12:17 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:12:17 As somebody who's investigated and gone down all of these rabbit holes, as somebody who's seen how AI is affecting who gets hired and how you get hired-

Hilke Schellmann 1:12:25 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:12:25 ... who gets fired-

Hilke Schellmann 1:12:26 And how you get fired

Trevor Noah 1:12:26 ... and how they get fired.

Eugene 1:12:28 How you get fired.

Trevor Noah 1:12:28 Yeah. As somebody who's done all of this work, I'd, I'd love to know- ... what you think some concrete solutions could actually be. Like, where we see progress, where we see solutions. Is there, is there something... Let, let's break it down. Is there something lawmakers can do? Is there something that companies can do?

Hilke Schellmann 1:12:46 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:12:47 And then is there something that just workers can do?

Hilke Schellmann 1:12:50 Yeah. Um, so I do think there's room for improvement in all levels.

Trevor Noah 1:12:54 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 1:12:54 Um, so I do think that there could be, uh, better laws here. For example, what we see... Uh, you know, the funny thing is, like, I am originally from Germany, but, uh, I remember talking to the former head of, uh, talent acquisition at, at Vodafone, uh, which is a huge, uh, telecommunications company in Europe-

Trevor Noah 1:13:12 Mm-hmm

Hilke Schellmann 1:13:12 ... and other parts of the world, not so big in the US, and, and he was laughing. He's like, "You know what? Like, we use AI in hiring now, and, and when you wanna upload your resume, there's, like, Germany and the rest of the world." Uh, because Germany has this one funny thing that, like, once you're working in a company, and you have, I think, more than five employees, they can, um, uh, have a workers' council. It's not a union.

Trevor Noah 1:13:33 Mm. Mm.

Hilke Schellmann 1:13:34 Sounds like it, but it's different. And the workers' council, there's actually a law, and they get to co-decide technology in the workplace.

Trevor Noah 1:13:41 Oh.

Hilke Schellmann 1:13:41 So some of the surveillance technology we don't see happening in Germany 'cause the, you know, this workers' council has to be notified, and I think a lot of companies shy away from using some of this, like, very intrusive, um, AI tools. Um, but in the United States, for example, like, anything that happens on a work computer belongs to the company. So, like, don't do it, like, private Slack messages, like, private surfing. Like, all of that can be recorded by the company, and it belongs to them.

Trevor Noah 1:14:06 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 1:14:07 Um, so you wanna be very careful of that. So I think there needs to be many more privacy protections, and I think companies should tell, should be mandated to tell their employees what kind of software they're using them. So for example, like, some of it is, like, very basic, but, like, if you suddenly print a lot, that might be an indication that you're at flight risk, so maybe the company lawyer should be looking into what you're moving away from your computer. Um, like, those kinds of, like, sort of, uh-

Trevor Noah 1:14:32 Telltales

Hilke Schellmann 1:14:32 ... digital telltales.

Trevor Noah 1:14:34 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 1:14:34 Um, you know, I think companies should tell us, and maybe there should be a way for, like, uh, employees to co-decision-making, 'cause some of the time, you know, if, if you're working in a nuclear power plant, maybe you do want AI to scan for, like, exposure to radiation.

Trevor Noah 1:14:47 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 1:14:47 I would want that.

Trevor Noah 1:14:48 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 1:14:48 Like, um, so you know, there might be cases where this is, like, actually really helpful. And, and maybe everyone agrees that, like, you know what? Printing is a problem. You shouldn't be printing so much, and you shouldn't, like, move files, and that could be an indication that you're leaking. Um, yada, yada, yada. Like, maybe, maybe we can make a decision together, but we w- we don't see that. So it's, like, all top-down, um, and people are, uh... You know, these kinds of, uh, tools and decision-makings are being used on them, and they don't even know it, and I think that's really unfair, and there's no way to push against that. I think also, like, companies need to be much more skeptical when they buy these AI tools, not believe the hype that this is gonna solve all their problems, they're gonna hire the best people. Like, actually-

Trevor Noah 1:15:28 Yeah

Hilke Schellmann 1:15:29 ... uh, uh, show me. Show me the evidence. Like, show me how it works. I'd be happy to look at it. Um, and, and, uh, you know, I'd be open to it. Like, maybe, maybe an AI is better. Wouldn't that be great? But we need to know. We don't actually know that kind of stuff. So we need to interrogate these algorithm, understand the processes underneath them, and really critically assess them. I think that's where maybe humans are coming in in this world. Um, so we need to be, uh, uh, uh, much more skeptical there. And then as, like, the applicant for jobs, that's the hardest part, 'cause there isn't necessarily something you can do except, like, call your congressperson and sort of be aware what is out there and, like, try some of the tools. Like, you know, there, there's, there's definitely better ways to, like, have a machine-readable algorithm.

Trevor Noah 1:16:13 Mm-hmm.

Hilke Schellmann 1:16:13 And there's things you can do.

Trevor Noah 1:16:14 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 1:16:14 Um, but you know, when, like, 5,000 people apply for one job, and they close the job description after... Uh, you know, they, they, they, they close the job portal after 24 hours-

Trevor Noah 1:16:23 Yeah

Hilke Schellmann 1:16:23 ... uh, [laughs] the- there's-

Trevor Noah 1:16:25 Mm-hmm

Hilke Schellmann 1:16:25 ... there's nothing we can help you with there. Like, it's, you know, it's sort of, like, a bigger societal change, to be b- much more skeptical about these tools and put pressure on lawmakers, decision-makers-

Trevor Noah 1:16:35 Mm-hmm

Hilke Schellmann 1:16:35 ... to do a better job here, and to just be more transparent. Like, one of the stories, like, um, of Martin, like, came through because he lived, uh, in the European Union and knew about the laws, and he asked for the data. Like, there is a-

Trevor Noah 1:16:49 Oh, wow

Hilke Schellmann 1:16:49 ... general privacy, uh, protection law, and, uh, you can ask for your data that companies have on you.

Trevor Noah 1:16:54 Hmm.

Hilke Schellmann 1:16:55 And that's how he found out that the company used AI, which was against the la- la-la-la-la-la, so he got a... He, he, he got a settlement. He actually started a case. So that was, like, a goldmine for me. I call him patient zero, uh, 'cause he's sort of the first person who, like, encountered these kind of AI tools in the hiring phase and then actually got the data on himself, right?

Trevor Noah 1:17:12 Hmm.

Hilke Schellmann 1:17:13 That's, like, gold to me. Um, so we could sort of unravel and, and, and, and talk about the case because we had the data. Um, and we don't have anything like that, at least on a federal level, in the United States. So there's, like, way more work to be done to make this better. And I do think in general, like, I do... Like, I think we talk a lot about, like, sentencing guidelines with AI to send people to prison, should you get a mortgage, and, and, and I think those are all very consequential decisions, and we absolutely need to take a closer look at those and look at them critically. But I also think hiring is really important too.

Trevor Noah 1:17:45 Mm-hmm.

Hilke Schellmann 1:17:45 Like, it matters if I can pay the bills.

Trevor Noah 1:17:48 Mm-hmm.

Hilke Schellmann 1:17:48 Like, it matters if I, uh, can food... uh, put food on the table. Like, also, like, happiness is tied to our jobs for many people.

Trevor Noah 1:17:55 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 1:17:55 Like, we spend enormous amounts of hours at our jobs, so, like, it better be something we kinda like at least. Um, so it matters if I get the job or not. So we really should be scrutinizing these kinds of system if it makes decisions on humans. If it makes decisions about my spam and it doesn't work, I'll find another spam filter. Like, fine, great use for AI. Um, but for hiring and these critical human decision-makings where human lives are at stake, you gotta be much more skeptical, scrutinize these tools. Um, and then we probably have a chance of building a better world.

Trevor Noah 1:18:28 Well, I will say there's one part of the equation I'm very grateful for-

Hilke Schellmann 1:18:31 Hmm

Trevor Noah 1:18:31 ... and it's that we have an intrepid investigative journalist-

Hilke Schellmann 1:18:35 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:18:35 ... who's doing the work. Because, I mean-

Hilke Schellmann 1:18:37 Thank you. Sometimes you wonder, like, "Does my work have an impact?" But I do think sometimes, you know, when I show people, like, my videos from eight years ago about, like, the emotion recognition of, of, of facial expressions, and, and they're like, "Wow, that could be so easily biased," and I was like, "Wow, I guess our work sort of, like, has made a difference."

Trevor Noah 1:18:55 Yeah.

Hilke Schellmann 1:18:55 Because eight years ago we were all looking at, like, "Whoa, who knew? This is so cool." And now everyone is like, "Oh, wait a second. Like, if there are only, like, you know, more men than women in the data, la-la-di-da." And I was like, wow, there is, like, sort of a much more education around AI and bias and all of those things, and I think it has made an impact, slowly but surely.

Trevor Noah 1:19:15 Slowly but surely. But I'll tell you, now I know for, for my next job I've, I've got something to think about when we get out there in the streets. And from my side-

Hilke Schellmann 1:19:24 Oh, please, please work with me on hiring. Let's do, like, some, uh-

Trevor Noah 1:19:25 Oh, no. Yeah, no

Hilke Schellmann 1:19:26 ... some- [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:19:27 No. Thank you very much. You know, from, from me, um, you know, from Syria, from Canada, and Thomas, we just wanna say-

Hilke Schellmann 1:19:32 I mean, let's, let's-

Trevor Noah 1:19:33 Thank you very much

Hilke Schellmann 1:19:34 ... put the point on hiring.

Trevor Noah 1:19:35 Let's do it.

Hilke Schellmann 1:19:35 And see, and see how it works. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:19:36 Hilke, thank you very much.

Hilke Schellmann 1:19:37 Awesome. Thank you. [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 1:19:42 Thank you so much for watching the episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friend still. Let them suffer for a change. And don't forget to engage with us in the comments. Uh, if you wanna, uh, suggest a guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe there's ideas that you have, you can chat to us. We will read through the comments, and we'll get into it. Either way, I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you for hanging out with us on What Now? And remember, we do this for you, so we would like to hear from you. Till next time. Thank you.