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What Now? With Trevor NoahWhat Now? With Trevor Noah

Neuro-Spicy: Discussing ADHD with Dr. Kristin Carothers | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

Noted clinical psychologist Dr. Kristin Carothers joins Christiana and me in discussing ADHD. We demystify the condition, how it’s diagnosed and manifests, and its impact on everything from education to relationships to professional sports.

Trevor NoahhostChristianahostDr. Kristin CarothersguestChristianahost
May 1, 20251h 31mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 5:42

    Dr. Carothers' Work and the Three Presentations of ADHD

    1. TN

      But this is my ADHD as well.

    2. CH

      Uh-huh.

    3. TN

      When I'm in a dirty car, like a car that's... has everything in it, all I can see and hear is the trash moving while we're driving.

    4. CH

      [laughs]

    5. KC

      [laughs]

    6. TN

      So I don't know if you've ever taken the time to do it. Don't, 'cause it'll throw you. Like, depending on what type of car you have, while you're driving around, the, like, the sand is jumping-

    7. CH

      The, the, the shaking

    8. TN

      ... in the mat.

    9. CH

      [laughs]

    10. TN

      It's like you literally see it, like, bouncing, and then you see on the dashboard, it's like a little colony of dirt that's celebrating at every stoplight.

    11. CH

      It doesn't bother me. [laughs]

    12. TN

      You're like, "No." And then the, and then the, and there's a plastic cup that rattles at every turn-

    13. CH

      [laughs]

    14. TN

      ... at every stop. And I'm like, "How are you living like this?"

    15. CH

      I got-

    16. TN

      How are you living like this?

    17. CH

      I, I have, like, an extra pair of socks in the door.

    18. TN

      Oh, no.

    19. KC

      Oh.

    20. CH

      And, uh-

    21. TN

      Oh, no

    22. CH

      ... a knife-

    23. TN

      Oh, no

    24. CH

      ... just in case somebody tries to run up on me.

    25. TN

      [laughs]

    26. KC

      [laughs]

    27. CH

      I have, like, one of those things that you can crack the window.

    28. TN

      Oh, wow. [laughs]

    29. CH

      Like, it... [laughs] Like, all in this pocket. And then in the middle pocket, I have lotion and contact lens solution and an inhaler and, like, a badge.

    30. TN

      Oh my God, you are everything.

  2. 5:42 – 8:22

    Trevor's Diagnosis and Reframing ADHD Beyond "Disorder"

    1. TN

      That's... So I was, I was diagnosed with ADHD, I don't know when this wa- maybe it was definitely during the pandemic-ish time.

    2. KC

      Congratulations.

    3. CH

      [laughs]

    4. KC

      Welcome.

    5. TN

      [laughs] But what happened is one of my best friends, he was, he was going through the most, is the best way to put it.

    6. KC

      Mm-hmm.

    7. TN

      He, he thought he had depression and then he thought he had something else, and he thought... And then someone said he was bipolar. He went through this whole journey.

    8. KC

      Mm-hmm.

    9. TN

      And then came out on the other side of it a c- almost completely different person, and then he told me, he said, "Hey, man, I, I was diagnosed with ADHD and this is what it means." And, and I was like, "Okay." I mean, I took it seriously, but also we're friends, so I didn't take it seriously.

    10. CH

      Mm.

    11. TN

      And then he said, "This changed my life and, and I f- I felt so emotional"

    12. CH

      Mm-hmm

    13. TN

      ... and the world has never looked like... And I, I feel like I've, I've wasted so many chances in life now.

    14. CH

      Mm-hmm.

    15. TN

      And I was like, "Damn, this is getting deep."

    16. CH

      Mm-hmm.

    17. TN

      I was like, "Yo, you just forget things. Calm down"

    18. CH

      [laughs] Calm down.

    19. TN

      And he said, "No, now I take medication." And then he, he explained some of the symptoms to me.

    20. CH

      Okay.

    21. KC

      Mm.

    22. TN

      And I was like, "Huh, that sounds like me." But we're so different personality wise that I could not believe that we had the same thing, because in my head he was describing a personality.

    23. KC

      And it's not a personality disorder.

    24. TN

      Right, right.

    25. KC

      There are personality disorders, mood disorders, uh, disorders of, um, regulation. They are not the same thing. And I also kind of wanna move away from the u- the term disorder.

    26. TN

      Yeah

    27. KC

      Right? Your brain is wired to function differently in a d- in different settings. In some settings, the way that your brain functions is optimal. In other settings it's suboptimal.

    28. CH

      Mm-hmm.

    29. TN

      Hmm.

    30. KC

      And so rather than saying, like, "Oh, we're disordered because we can't focus," well, when it comes time to solve a problem and we're down to the wire, we don't have a lot of time, your brain is willing to think creatively-

  3. 8:22 – 12:31

    Spotting ADHD in Young Children and the Age-12 Criterion

    1. CH

      I'm, I'm curious 'cause you're, you specialize in children.

    2. KC

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CH

      And the thing about early childhood is that it's very difficult to articulate-

    4. KC

      Yes

    5. CH

      ... your own experience-

    6. KC

      Yes

    7. CH

      ... and what's going on in your brain.

    8. KC

      Yes.

    9. CH

      A lot of the things you describe, you're like, "Oh, that sounds just like a toddler."

    10. KC

      Right.

    11. CH

      Or, "That sounds like a-

    12. KC

      Right

    13. CH

      ... five, six-year-old."

    14. KC

      Right.

    15. CH

      So how, for parents with young children that are displaying-

    16. KC

      Mm-hmm

    17. CH

      ... some of these behaviors, how can they know the difference be- between it being like, "Okay, this brain is wired differently-

    18. KC

      Uh-huh

    19. CH

      ... and this is just emerging childhood?"

    20. KC

      Okay. So, hmm, couple different places. ADHD used to be diagnosed, you had to have the symptoms before age six. Now we say you have to have them before age 12. There are s-

    21. CH

      Oh, why did they make it later?

    22. KC

      Because the researchers said... I don't really know.

    23. CH

      [laughs]

    24. KC

      But the researchers said with the new edition of, like, the manual that we use to diagnose, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders-

    25. TN

      That's DSM, yeah

    26. KC

      ... DSM-5

    27. CH

      Yeah

    28. KC

      ... that it was based on the research that people were presenting with symptoms as late as age 12.

    29. CH

      Oh, wow.

    30. KC

      And so they wanted to make sure that they could be, I guess, more inclusive.

  4. 12:31 – 17:24

    ADHD in Girls and Signs to Watch For

    1. CH

      I have a question-

    2. KC

      Yeah. Go on

    3. CH

      ... on top of that.

    4. KC

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CH

      So I have a bunch of friends-

    6. KC

      Yeah

    7. CH

      ... um, who are now, they were high-performing girls in school, super bright.

    8. KC

      Yes.

    9. CH

      And they're nearly 40, and they're, like, recently diagnosed.

    10. KC

      Yes.

    11. CH

      And it came up in postpartum.

    12. TN

      Yeah.

    13. KC

      Ah.

    14. CH

      Everything fall apart, fell apart. And a lot of things that their therapists and the people they're working with said, "We, we miss it in girls. We miss it in girls."

    15. KC

      Yes.

    16. CH

      "We miss it in girls."

    17. KC

      Yes.

    18. CH

      I don't wanna get into the gender binary-

    19. KC

      That's okay.

    20. CH

      And boys and all of that stuff.

    21. KC

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    22. CH

      But, you know, the girls I see even in my son's preschool, in my, they behave very differently. Even when they're energetic, they're energetic in a different way-

    23. TN

      Yes. Yeah

    24. CH

      ... in how they move. How do parents of girls who may not have the same presentation make sure that these girls don't go under the radar for a long time and maybe never get diagnosed? What are you seeing in girls as children?

    25. KC

      So that story that I told you about the kid under the desk was a girl, and the, for girls, unless their behaviors are so hyperactive that it is, like, really problematic, girls tend to fly under the radar, I think because of confirmation bias. We expect that boys are gonna be more likely to struggle with attention and focus, or we'll say, like, "Oh, it's part of being a boy" but then if it goes too far, it's like, "Okay, well, then we probably need to look at this boy."

    26. CH

      Mm-hmm.

    27. KC

      I think a lot of girls present as inattentive initially, and people miss inattention.

    28. TN

      Hmm.

    29. KC

      Or the girls that get caught are the girls who are super talkative.

    30. TN

      Hmm.

  5. 17:24 – 21:49

    Why Sleep, Mornings and Routine Are Hard: Dopamine and "Office Brains"

    1. TN

      what I'd love to do is break down each part-

    2. KC

      Yeah

    3. TN

      ... to help us understand the whys behind it.

    4. KC

      Okay.

    5. TN

      'Cause I think a lot of people will, uh, you know, a lot of people recognize this stuff, right?

    6. KC

      Yeah.

    7. TN

      They'll go like, "Oh, yeah, that's me. I can't wake up," or-

    8. CH

      Mm

    9. TN

      ... "I'm late," or, "I'm..." H- help us understand the why. So why is it hard to wake up if you have ADHD?

    10. KC

      You likely don't have great sleep hygiene.

    11. CH

      Hmm.

    12. KC

      You know you should go to bed at 8:00, but you really wanna watch that show, and you get fixated on that show.

    13. TN

      Okay, now let's go down that r- rabbit hole.

    14. CH

      [laughs]

    15. TN

      Why do you not go to bed then?

    16. KC

      Because your brain is like, "But I could just watch this one episode and it won't be that bad," and then you get hooked on the episode [laughs] and be like, "But now I wanna watch another." Or you're like, "I wanna read this book, and my brain isn't tired yet, so I'm gonna read a few chapters of this book." Like, I need my brain to be exhausted to fall asleep and stay asleep.

    17. TN

      Okay, but then why is your brain wanting to do another episode?

    18. KC

      Because your brain is reinforced by dopamine.

    19. TN

      Okay.

    20. KC

      What is happening with ADHD is your brain functions differently.

    21. TN

      Okay.

    22. KC

      And so the dopamine or the reward centers of the brain need a lot of input for reinforcement.

    23. TN

      Okay, and what's happening with a, with a regular brain?

    24. KC

      With a regular brain-

    25. TN

      Let's call it what I like to call an office brain.

    26. KC

      An office [laughs]

    27. TN

      Yeah.

    28. CH

      [laughs]

    29. TN

      'Cause I don't, I don't call it the disorder. I call it-

    30. KC

      An office brain

  6. 21:49 – 27:43

    "Now and Not Now": Time Blindness and Parenting ADHD Kids

    1. TN

      Oh, yes.

    2. CH

      Mm.

    3. TN

      I call that now and not now.

    4. CH

      Mm.

    5. KC

      Talk about that.

    6. TN

      That's all that is.

    7. KC

      What is that?

    8. TN

      So for an ADHD brain, there are only two modes. There is now and there is not now.

    9. KC

      [laughs]

    10. TN

      Okay?

    11. KC

      Okay.

    12. TN

      So when I meet other people, I'm always really impressed and fascinated by how they are able to see time laid out in, in a more gradual fashion. So somebody says to me, let's say it's now, like, 5:00 PM.

    13. KC

      Mm-hmm.

    14. TN

      And they go, "Dinner's at 8:00." In my head, what I've heard is, "Dinner is not now." Okay.

    15. KC

      [laughs]

    16. TN

      Then at, like, 6:30, they'll start, like, dressing. They'll go, "All right, I'm gonna go get dressed." And I'll say to my friend, I'll be like, "You're getting dressed? Why?"

    17. CH

      [laughs]

    18. TN

      They go, "So we can go to dinner." Then I go, "Wait, what's the time?" They go, "6:30." And they... Like, Sizwe. Sizwe, I have Sizwe on the podcast all the time. He's, like, the antithesis of ADHD.

    19. KC

      Mm.

    20. TN

      He is the, like, the furthest thing possible, so he'll start getting dressed at, like, 6:00 PM or 6:30. We... Dinner's at 8:00.

    21. KC

      Yes.

    22. TN

      And then I go, "But dinner's at 8:00," Sizwe. And he's like, "Yeah, so I'm gonna get dressed now." And I go like, "Well, but that's not now. Like, dinner's not now."

    23. KC

      [laughs] You could do so many other things now.

    24. TN

      My brain is going, "I mean, I could watch a movie."

    25. KC

      Yeah.

    26. CH

      Mm-hmm.

    27. TN

      "I could watch a few episodes of a TV show."

    28. KC

      Yeah.

    29. TN

      "I could read something." This is, this makes no sense.

    30. KC

      Yeah.

  7. 27:43 – 31:42

    Black Children, Misdiagnosis and Behavior vs. Character

    1. CH

      Mm-hmm. I'm really curious-

    2. KC

      Mm-hmm

    3. CH

      ... because you said I'm Black.

    4. KC

      Yes, sorry.

    5. CH

      You said I'm Black.

    6. KC

      I'm, I'm not sorry I'm Black, but I am. [laughs]

    7. CH

      Yeah. [laughs]

    8. TN

      [laughs]

    9. KC

      Yes.

    10. CH

      And your focus is children.

    11. KC

      Yes.

    12. CH

      And we know that Black children, minority children-

    13. KC

      Yes

    14. CH

      ... in this country tend to be really under-diagnosed.

    15. KC

      Yes.

    16. CH

      And as a result, they're often expelled.

    17. KC

      Mm-hmm.

    18. CH

      It's like that's a bad kid.

    19. KC

      Mm-hmm.

    20. CH

      And we know about the school-to-prison pipeline.

    21. KC

      Mm-hmm.

    22. CH

      And there's something, I can't remember the statistic about how many people in the prison system actually have ADHD, right?

    23. TN

      I think it's, I think it's, uh, 60 to 70%-

    24. CH

      Yeah

    25. TN

      ... if I remember correctly.

    26. KC

      Mm-hmm. Mm.

    27. CH

      It's like a huge, huge swath of, like, Black men in this country who were once Black boys with ADHD, who were never diagnosed and 'cause of, you know-

    28. KC

      Mm-hmm

    29. CH

      ... historical and social factors.

    30. KC

      Mm-hmm.

  8. 31:42 – 35:48

    ADHD, Capitalism and Athletes

    1. TN

      I'll often say to my friend, I say it half-joking, but I, I do believe it. I go, "ADHD isn't necessarily a problem. ADHD is just like the enemy of capitalism." I truly believe this.

    2. CH

      Yeah. Okay.

    3. KC

      Mm.

    4. CH

      Okay.

    5. TN

      And what I mean by that is if you think of what a- how ADHD presents-

    6. CH

      Hm

    7. TN

      ... most of the things that ADHD presents are, they're like sort of bad for a, a factory worker.

    8. KC

      Absolutely.

    9. CH

      Uh.

    10. TN

      I joke and I call people office thinkers, but I know some of my friends love organizing and-

    11. CH

      Mm-hmm

    12. TN

      ... being quiet-

    13. CH

      Yeah. Mm-hmm

    14. TN

      ... and reading and looking at lists-

    15. CH

      Mm

    16. TN

      ... and putting numbers together. Good for you. Good for you. But you have to admit that the world has also been designed that way.

    17. KC

      Absolutely.

    18. TN

      Right?

    19. CH

      Yeah.

    20. TN

      So the world is great for people who wake up early.

    21. KC

      Yes.

    22. TN

      The world is great for people who wish to sit in a cubicle, but what does the world do for you if you do wanna talk or if you do wanna run or if you wanna jump or if you wanna-

    23. KC

      Yeah.

    24. TN

      Now luckily there's some outlets, like for instance, in the same way that prison, athletes over-index for ADHD.

    25. CH

      Oh. Oh, I didn't know that.

    26. TN

      Yeah, a lot of-

    27. CH

      How do they train?

    28. TN

      No, but that's-

    29. KC

      No, no, that's what reinforces it

    30. TN

      ... that's what reinforces them.

  9. 35:48 – 43:11

    ADHD in Partnerships: Domestic Labor, Currencies and Control

    1. CH

      I'm, I'm, I don't wanna look at it strictly through a heterosexual lens.

    2. KC

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CH

      But I think domestic labor is something most couples-

    4. KC

      Yes

    5. CH

      ... wherever you are, struggle with.

    6. KC

      Yes.

    7. CH

      Who does the washing up?

    8. TN

      Yeah.

    9. CH

      Who gets the laundry? Who's cooking today? Who's cleaning? Like, the house needs to be a certain way, and when you have children, that's even compounded, right?

    10. KC

      Yes.

    11. CH

      For the most part, women take on a lot of domestic-

    12. KC

      Mm-hmm

    13. CH

      ... labor. We talk about the mental load all the time. It's women doing that, and I speak to a lot of friends whose husbands have ADHD.

    14. KC

      Mm-hmm.

    15. CH

      And they're like, "We're really dealing with the gender differences that come up where I'm doing a lot of the domestic labor, but this man is also forgetful, and, but he's not being an asshole." [laughs] Do you know what I mean? 'Cause sometimes there's this idea that, like, you know, the lazy man is like-

    16. KC

      Mm.

    17. CH

      He's struggling. He, he generally forgot to take out the trash.

    18. KC

      Mm-hmm.

    19. CH

      Even though I can smell it. [laughs]

    20. KC

      Right.

    21. CH

      Right? It stinks.

    22. KC

      Right.

    23. CH

      He forgot to take out the trash. He didn't make the bed. He didn't pick up the dry cleaning. Um, I organized the cleaner. You forgot to get the cash to pay the cleaner.

    24. KC

      Mm-hmm.

    25. CH

      Do you know what I mean? And, like, that can cause a lot of tension in relationships, and then you think that that person dislikes you.

    26. KC

      Mm-hmm.

    27. CH

      Because I think when you're in love with somebody, it's like, "If you love me, you'll do this thing for me."

    28. KC

      Uh-huh.

    29. CH

      But they're incapable of doing it.

    30. KC

      But love is not transactional.

  10. 43:11 – 50:03

    Over-Controlling Partners and Teaching Systems

    1. KC

      okay. So anecdotally, what I tend to notice is that we attract opposites. A person with ADHD is typically gonna attract somebody who's more structured-

    2. TN

      Yeah

    3. KC

      ... routine. Right? It helps them. A person who's more-

    4. TN

      All my exes could pack bags very well.

    5. KC

      Uh-huh.

    6. CH

      [laughs]

    7. KC

      You expecting them to, right?

    8. TN

      No, really.

    9. KC

      Yeah. [laughs]

    10. CH

      [laughs]

    11. TN

      No, I didn't. I didn't.

    12. KC

      You expecting them to.

    13. TN

      They were just like-

    14. CH

      You said it, not me

    15. TN

      ... they were just like, "No, I didn't"

    16. KC

      You were like-

    17. TN

      "I didn't at all"

    18. KC

      ... but if they did, you were happy.

    19. TN

      No. Can I tell you something?

    20. KC

      What?

    21. TN

      It's the opposite.

    22. KC

      Okay.

    23. TN

      I hate someone packing my bag.

    24. KC

      Sorry to attack you.

    25. TN

      No, I hate some-

    26. CH

      [laughs]

    27. TN

      I don't feel attacked. I, I hate someone packing my bag-

    28. KC

      Mm

    29. TN

      ... because then I don't know if the thing I want is in the bag.

    30. CH

      And you don't know where stuff is, right?

  11. 50:03 – 59:40

    Arguments as Fun and the "Press Record" Technique

    1. TN

      It's also, it's also difficult to try and explain to people how many fights in their relationship aren't necessarily fights, but they're a manifestation of ADHD meeting up with non-ADHD.

    2. KC

      Mm.

    3. TN

      So I didn't, until I, like, delved into all of this, I didn't know that for an ADHD brain, for the most part, not all brains, but for most ADHD brains, arguments are fun.

    4. KC

      Yes.

    5. CH

      [laughs]

    6. KC

      Coercive cycle of interaction. There's a term for it.

    7. TN

      Coercive cycle of interaction.

    8. KC

      You are-

    9. TN

      Oh, I love this

    10. KC

      ... reinforced by your coercive behaviors, and this is what we teach in behavioral parent management training, another plug for an evidence-based intervention for ADHD. [laughs]

    11. TN

      [laughs]

    12. CH

      [laughs]

    13. KC

      So in behavioral parent management training, the first step is teaching parents about the coercive cycle of interaction and how their kids are reinforced to continue arguing because they eventually get what they want, and parents are reinforced to be more punitive because they eventually get what they want. So when you get, when you've done that as a child with your parent and then you get into a relationship and you're like, "I can prove that I'm right. I can get you to see that the way I'm thinking is the way you should be thinking."

    14. CH

      Mm-hmm.

    15. KC

      And you just continue to engage in this, this spiral until you win, and the other person is pissed or they gave up 'cause they're exhausted.

    16. TN

      Yeah, or they, they're exhausted most of the time.

    17. CH

      They're exhausted. Yeah.

    18. KC

      They're exhausted.

    19. CH

      'Cause the ADHD person can keep, they keep going.

    20. KC

      Can, they keep going a lot of times.

    21. TN

      However.

    22. CH

      Yeah.

    23. KC

      And you'll be like, "Can you just stop?" And they're like, "No." So instead of telling them to stop, you give them the positive opposite behavior, the to-do behavior. So instead of, "Would you stop talking?" It's, "Can we take a quiet moment? Can you be quiet? What do I want you to do?"

    24. TN

      Okay.

    25. KC

      So instead of, uh, "Stop arguing," "Can we change the subject?" Or sometimes you gotta kinda just turn away and, like, wait for, to catch them being good and then turn back. Like, if you're taking me down that spiral where you're trying to argue with me-

    26. TN

      Yeah

    27. KC

      ... I'm gonna, like, turn away and pretend to do something else, and then the minute you get quiet, even if it's by accident, "Thanks, Trevor, for being quiet." [laughs]

    28. TN

      [laughs]

    29. CH

      [laughs]

    30. KC

      [laughs]

  12. 59:40 – 1:08:57

    Medication Concerns, Travel Anxiety and Existential Spirals

    1. CH

      I had to, I have a question-

    2. KC

      Yeah

    3. CH

      ... about setting up for success that I, I've seen a lot of parents grapple with, and it's the question of medication.

    4. KC

      Yes

    5. CH

      Now, I'm a millennial, and I-

    6. KC

      Yeah, me too

    7. CH

      ... and I think we're like the Ritalin generation as well.

    8. KC

      Yes

    9. CH

      And there's a lot of millennials who felt that they were over-medicated.

    10. KC

      Yes

    11. CH

      That they look back at their childhood and they're like, "I felt like a zombie." They're trying to figure out who they are without the presence of some sort of medication. And I think a consequence of that is that a lot of millennial parent, people who are becoming parents now who are medicated as kids are maybe reluctant to medicate their children, do not know when they should introduce that modality.

    12. KC

      Mm-hmm

    13. CH

      What are the ethics of it?

    14. KC

      Mm-hmm

    15. CH

      Can you even, you know, I struggle giving my kids Tylenol.

    16. KC

      Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

    17. CH

      I'm like, is this a gateway to some other issue?

    18. KC

      I hear you. I know.

    19. CH

      Do you know what I mean? [laughs]

    20. KC

      Okay. So let me talk to you about that gateway drug thing. In my opinion, that is a cultural belief that comes out of the crack pandemic.

    21. CH

      Yeah

    22. KC

      Right? We know that there were specific plans and things that were done-

    23. CH

      Mm

    24. KC

      ... to make sure that a certain group of people were destroyed by a drug.

    25. CH

      Mm-hmm.

    26. KC

      And over time, we have become very wary and suspicious, and it is healthy cultural paranoia-

    27. CH

      Mm

    28. KC

      ... about the use of medications and drugs.

    29. TN

      Yeah.

    30. CH

      Yeah

  13. 1:08:57 – 1:14:45

    Externalizing ADHD, Problem-Solving Superpowers and Finding Your Tribe

    1. TN

      I love that you say that because it's, it's, it's learning yourself-

    2. CH

      Yes

    3. TN

      ... being honest with yourself. And if there's one piece of advice I would give people, think of the ADHD as this little gremlin passenger in my life, who I have a fun relationship with, by the way.

    4. KC

      Yeah.

    5. TN

      I don't resent it.

    6. KC

      Yes.

    7. TN

      I don't hate it, but what I will, I'll do is I'll call it out. Like, I'll actively say, at times, you'll find... If you leave a microphone in my home, randomly you'll hear me going, "Ah, hello, ADHD."

    8. KC

      [laughs]

    9. CH

      [laughs]

    10. TN

      I just say this every now and again. I'll just be like, "Ah-

    11. CH

      Trevor

    12. TN

      ... there you-"

    13. CH

      ... don't say that, 'cause my mom's gonna be like-

    14. TN

      Yeah, your m-

    15. CH

      ... "Spirit"

    16. TN

      ... yeah, my mom.

    17. KC

      [laughs]

    18. CH

      [laughs] It's a spirit.

    19. TN

      My mom actually-

    20. KC

      I love it. Yes, spirits, come on, tell me about it

    21. TN

      ... but I promise you, I promise you, I do that all the time-

    22. KC

      Yes

    23. TN

      ... because I've also learned, for people with ADHD, it's nice to, to, to remove the shame.

    24. KC

      Mm-hmm.

    25. CH

      Yeah, for sure.

    26. TN

      Because people will tell you the thing you're experiencing is, is bullshit. They'll tell you that it's not real, that you need to get over it, you just need to work prop- just to function, function, function.

    27. CH

      Yeah.

    28. TN

      But people just say this to you. But it's like, no, just trust me, take it out of yourself and say, "Huh, hello, old friend"

    29. KC

      Externalize it. Hello, old friend.

    30. TN

      Yeah. He's just like, "Ah, look at you. You want some ice cream, do you?"

  14. 1:14:45 – 1:31:36

    Fixing Systems for ADHD Helps Everyone, and Culture in Mental Health Care

    1. TN

      there's an idea that I have, I'll often say to Christiana, I go, th- there's moments where I dream of being a dictator of just like a small-

    2. CH

      [laughs]

    3. KC

      [laughs]

    4. TN

      ... of like a small island.

    5. CH

      You said this on-

    6. KC

      That's awesome

    7. CH

      ... you said this enough times-

    8. TN

      Yes

    9. CH

      ... during the pandemic-

    10. KC

      It's true

    11. CH

      ... that I'm concerned.

    12. TN

      Yes. I, I would, I would love to be a dictator of a small island, though.

    13. CH

      Mm-hmm.

    14. TN

      Like, just a small place where ... Because I think the small number helps you be a little more nimble.

    15. CH

      I'd be your advisor.

    16. TN

      You know, like, like, like Sweden, for instance.

    17. CH

      Yeah.

    18. KC

      Love you.

    19. TN

      I would love you as an advisor.

    20. CH

      I'd be your advisor.

    21. TN

      You know, Sweden's four million people or whatever.

    22. CH

      [laughs]

    23. TN

      It's like, it's easy to, it's easier to do things and see how they work. 300 million people is chaos.

    24. CH

      Mm-hmm.

    25. KC

      Mm-hmm.

    26. TN

      And, and one of the experiments I would love to conduct, because I, I, I, I'm sure there'll be second system effects, don't get me wrong.

    27. CH

      Mm.

    28. KC

      Mm-hmm.

    29. TN

      But I wonder what would happen, two things. One, I wonder what would happen if we treated almost everybody who we think is an outlier in society just for ADHD. And I know this is a, a gross malpracticing of science and medicine.

    30. CH

      Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:31:36

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