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What Now? With Trevor NoahThe Reality of Fiction with Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast
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Good Problems, Tiredness and Book-Tour Life
After a story about Nigerians teaching him to say he is winning rather than trying, Trevor Noah greets Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, who says she is tired from her book tour. They debate whether calling something a "good problem" stops people from admitting it is still a problem.
- •Noah says Nigerians were the first Africans who taught him to believe in himself
- •Adichie is tired from five days on tour and an early flight from Seattle
- •Noah says the phrase "good problem" can rob people of the right to feel what they feel
- •Adichie says she is glad people are interested in her book but won't accept others deciding what her good problem is
- •She says she doesn't do fake humility
Fame, Perception and Why Fiction Is Sacrosanct
Noah asks whether fame hinders or liberates an artist and describes how fame changes the way audiences hear a comedian. Adichie says she doesn't think about fame when writing fiction, which she calls her vocation, and explains why she stays off social media.
- •Noah says fame interferes with how art is perceived, using stand-up and the Picasso napkin sketch as examples
- •Adichie says fame neither hinders nor liberates her
- •She calls fiction her vocation and says she doesn't think about audience while writing
- •She can tell when people are bluffing about having read her work, including a man who couldn't say what happened in the Biafra book
- •She stays off social media for self-preservation because she would get into fights
How Noah and Adichie Met, and Disagreeing Without Cutting People Off
Adichie tells how she and Noah first connected after she criticized his Tomi Lahren interview and he followed her. Noah says he values well-structured arguments over agreement, and Adichie says the moralizing of opinion is a particularly American and recent phenomenon.
- •Adichie criticized the Tomi Lahren interview; Noah followed her and they exchanged views
- •She suspected the outreach was a trick, and calls herself a child of Biafra who wants to fight
- •Noah says he finds groups that all agree boring and would have no one in his life if he cut off everyone he disagreed with
- •Adichie says in Nigeria and most of Africa people can disagree and still keep a relationship
- •She says the moralizing of opinion in the US is recent, since America wasn't like that when she arrived in 1997
Politics as Culture, and Polarization in America
A speaker on the team says the scrutiny of people's politics grew after Trump's win, and Noah observes that Americans wear politics as their culture. Adichie pushes back, saying African politics is not ideological and that polarization preceded Trump.
- •A speaker who arrived in 2014 says Trump voters were quiet until he won, after which suspicion changed everyday interactions
- •Noah says Americans wear politics as culture, while in South Africa culture is Xhosa, Zulu and so on
- •Adichie says African politics is not ideological
- •Noah says South African parties share goals and differ on how to reach them
- •Adichie says she dislikes the word polarization and thinks it preceded Trump
Reading Dream Count: Diary Feel and the COVID Setting
Noah admits he thought the first 50 pages of Dream Count were a memoir, which Adichie takes as a compliment. She explains why the novel is set around COVID lockdown and calls it her most grown-up novel.
- •Adichie says she googled Noah's own book while reading it, and then reverses the joke onto his reading of hers
- •Noah says the intimate sex-life details felt like sneaking into a diary
- •Adichie says lockdown suited a character who looks back, since she is addicted to nostalgia and melancholy
- •She says COVID is the backdrop, not a character, and doesn't consider it a COVID novel
- •She calls it her most grown-up novel, willing to embrace uncertainty, compared with the responsibility she felt in Half of a Yellow Sun and the freedom of Americanah
Love, Men and Women, and Whose Story Gets Told
Noah and Adichie discuss the book's men, with a speaker singling out Kwame as a horrible man and Adichie wondering about his past trauma. Noah says every love story needs a "we", and Adichie objects that people keep asking about the men in a book about women's lives.
- •Adichie says she is anti-men in general, and a speaker names Kwame as the most dishonorable character
- •Adichie wonders whether a trauma response might explain Kwame
- •Noah says people rarely tell love stories in which they are the villain, and that men compress feelings into anger
- •Adichie warns against "both sides" thinking, since some relationships have one person at fault
- •She says many people ask "what about the men?" of a book about women, and Noah insists he was asking why she left characters unresolved
Marriage as Freedom and Women's Inner Sanctum
Noah says the book felt like an extension of his conversations with Christiana about women's bodies and ugly womanhood. A line about marriage bringing freedom leads Adichie to describe how a restrictive society can make marriage a strange kind of freedom.
- •Noah says the book gave him unvarnished insight into womanhood, like his talks with Christiana
- •A speaker loves the line that once you marry, they leave you alone, even if you divorce
- •Adichie says a husband's house can mean freedom from questions and judgment, though often a perceived one
- •She wants a world where women don't need marriage to be free
- •A speaker says the book feels like the inner sanctum of what women say to each other
Fiction, Satire and Radical Honesty
Asked whether the book's choices are deliberate, Adichie says she dislikes "why" questions about fiction. She describes Dream Count as part satire in its academia scenes, compares realism to Dickens, and says she never holds back in fiction and calls it our last frontier.
- •Noah asks whether the rich Africans and white liberals are intentional choices
- •Adichie says she can explain her essays but not her fiction, and calls the academia parts partly satire
- •She compares realism with Dickens giving a clearer sense of London than history does
- •She calls her approach radical honesty and says she regretted holding back in some stories in The Thing Around Your Neck
- •She says journalism and politics can't explore human motivation and fiction is our last frontier
Nafissatou Diallo, the Perp Walk and Justice in America
Adichie explains that a character is inspired by Nafissatou Diallo and recounts the Dominique Strauss-Kahn case and her angry nonfiction essay about it. Noah and Adichie then discuss public trials, the perp walk, and the line "In America, money is justice."
- •Adichie says the character is inspired by Diallo but her past and interior life are invented, and she kept Diallo's account of the hotel room as close as possible
- •She criticizes the perp walk and the way the case was dropped over an asylum application lie
- •She describes how Diallo was set up to look dishonest, with interviews in a non-native language and judgments about her gestures
- •Noah mentions Germany's limits on press coverage and cites Diddy and Luigi Mangione as examples of trial spectacle
- •Noah and Adichie discuss money as justice in America, and Noah contrasts it with cultures that value time or shame
American Academia: Disillusionment, Empathy and Money
Adichie says Dream Count is clearly unenthusiastic about American academia and describes its cynicism and lack of compassion. She argues the real issue is ordinary people on campus afraid to speak, not fringe racists, and blames money and donors for the lack of courage.
- •Her character comes to America seeking something noble and becomes disillusioned, which Adichie says can be read as a cautionary tale
- •She grew up on a university campus in Nsukka and says it was a place of many ideas, unlike US campuses
- •She argues the issue is mainstream people, such as a school-choice supporter wrongly judged, rather than fringe racists
- •She describes Ivy League students who admitted they sometimes can't say what they think
- •She says money, donors and entitled students undermine universities, and she longs for noble heroes like her character Omelogo
Social Media, Politicians and Who Is to Blame
Noah argues that social media algorithms flatten people and reward extremes, and that politicians' wrestler-like language filtered into public discourse. Adichie agrees more about social media but thinks too much blame falls on politicians and too little on individuals.
- •Noah says algorithms reward extreme language and make nuance boring
- •He says American politicians use rhetoric like wrestlers while being friendly in private, and cites Lindsey Graham and Hillary Clinton's teams
- •He uses the Vince McMahon wrestling documentary as an analogy for fans taking the show seriously
- •Adichie says it was Newt Gingrich who created the style, and that individuals bear responsibility
- •Noah explains the "white Obama" comedy premise, and Adichie says the two speak to different aspirations
Heroes, Purity Tests and Jokes About Terrible Things
Noah describes how admirers can turn on public figures and says he's been warned about talking to Adichie. Adichie says she values clear thinking and her views have changed over time, and they debate comedy: she won't laugh at some jokes but won't ban them.
- •Noah says public figures can go from hero to villain when fans expect them to think a certain way
- •Adichie says that's why she's not on social media
- •She describes how her feminism has changed, including on talking about women's bodies and PMS
- •Noah cites Jimmy Carr's disclaimer that jokes about terrible things are not the terrible things
- •Adichie says she may refuse to laugh at some jokes but would not say they cannot be told
Forming Your Own Mind, Respect and Being Loved
Adichie says she makes decisions through reading and information but is never swayed by criticism. She says she wants coherent disagreement with mutual respect, and that being loved means she doesn't need to campaign for anyone's approval.
- •Adichie says she likes clarity of language and thought and wants decisions based on knowledge
- •She says she has been reading books about AI
- •She says she will never be swayed by criticism, as the daughter of James and Grace Adichie
- •She will not accept disrespect
- •She says she was loved, so she doesn't need to change herself for anyone, and wishes that were easier for women
America Isn't the World: Gay Marriage, UAE and Informed Opinion
Prompted by a line in the book, Noah describes how America exports its settled positions, using a conversation about working in the Middle East. Adichie says American arguments often lack information, and she and Noah debate whether ordinary people have a responsibility to take a beat and read.
- •A book line says America doesn't know the world isn't America
- •Noah argues America pressures others about gay marriage without allowing them time, using the UAE's age as an example
- •Adichie says American arguments can feel like performances and wants people to read before forming opinions
- •A speaker recalls Noah's refusal to rush on the Jussie Smollett story
- •Noah says people have limited ability to evaluate sources, while Adichie insists everyone has some responsibility
Trust in Institutions, and Fiction as the Most Real Reality
Noah and Adichie discuss expertise, vaccines, the CDC's mask messaging and the broader collapse of institutional trust. Noah explains why he loves fiction, saying he doesn't have to question whether it's real, and Adichie recommends novels and warns that supposed sophistication is often provincial.
- •Noah argues that people who research vaccines can be misled and that the CDC's mask messaging damaged trust
- •Adichie believes in experts but asks whether one lie should make people distrust everything the CDC says
- •A speaker says destabilizing years and fear have pushed many people to extremes
- •Noah says he loves fiction because it creates the most real reality without the doubts of facts
- •Adichie recommends Middlemarch and The Beautiful Missus and says supposed sophistication can be provincial
Publisher timestamps
- 0:00Intro
- 0:58Nigerian influence on self-confidence
- 8:53Discussion of Dream Count Novel
- 15:00Exploring fame's impact on art and authenticity
- 35:39Critique of American Academia
- 45:00Discussion about love and relationships in literature
- 1:00:00Critique of American academia and institutional trust
- 1:22:09Analysis of American perspective on global issues
- 1:36:37Fiction as the last frontier of truth
