The Reality of Fiction with Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie  | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

1. 0:00 – 0:58

   Intro

   1. TNTrevor Noah0:00

      This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. One of my favorite things to have on hand these days is my Apple Card. It's made to be simple and private, and getting it was pretty simple too. It takes minutes to apply. Check your credit limit offer and start using it right away with Apple Pay. You could apply for it while waiting in line to get coffee, and then use it to buy your coffee. I also like that you can get up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, which can be put into a high-yield savings account that you can open through Apple Card, so you can really put your money to work. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone and start using Apple Card right away. Subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple Card owners, subject to eligibility. Savings and Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Member FDIC. Terms and more at applecard.com. [paper rustles]

2. 0:58 – 8:53

   Nigerian influence on self-confidence

   1. TNTrevor Noah0:58

      Like I, I, I always said, and I mean this is something that I learned in South Africa because we have such a large Nigerian population. I always go, like, Nigerians were the first Africans who taught me to believe in myself. Do you know what I mean?

   2. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:10

      Mm.

   3. TNTrevor Noah1:10

      Like every other African that I met always had like a, a certain level of like, "How you doing?" It was like, "Ah, I'm okay. I'm, you know, I'm fi-". Like, you know, we even say in South Africa, we'd be like, "Ah,

   4. SPSpeaker1:19

      Yeah.

   5. TNTrevor Noah1:24

      "I, you know, I make-

   6. SPSpeaker1:25

      I'm getting by.

   7. TNTrevor Noah1:25

      "I try. I... " You know? And Nigerians, I remember like literally were the first ones who were like, "You're not trying, you're doing."

   8. SPSpeaker1:30

      [laughs]

   9. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:31

      [laughs]

   10. TNTrevor Noah1:32

       "You are doing it. What do you mean you are trying? Are you not winning?" And I was like, "I mean, yeah. I mean..."

   11. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:36

       Really?

   12. TNTrevor Noah1:36

       They're like, "No, you are winning. You are, don't say you are trying when you are doing." [upbeat music] This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. Hi.

   13. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:56

       Hey.

   14. TNTrevor Noah1:58

       Hmm.

   15. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:58

       [speaks foreign language] Hello you.

   16. TNTrevor Noah2:01

       Wait, what's your name?

   17. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie2:01

       Christiana.

   18. TNTrevor Noah2:02

       Christiana.

   19. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie2:03

       Namnonga.

   20. TNTrevor Noah2:06

       Okay.

   21. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie2:06

       Seven. No. Hello Trevor.

   22. TNTrevor Noah2:08

       How are you?

   23. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie2:10

       I'm, I'm well. Bit... I'm tired.

   24. TNTrevor Noah2:13

       Tired?

   25. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie2:13

       Tired. Mm.

   26. TNTrevor Noah2:14

       Or would you-

   27. SPSpeaker2:14

       You don't look tired, you look great

   28. TNTrevor Noah2:15

       ... you look fantastic. But wait, wait, tired, tired from life or tired from... No, I've always feel like you should ask people, 'cause sometimes we ask people, "How are you?" Then they'll say, "Tired." You think they mean they haven't slept, but what they mean is, "I'm exhausted."

   29. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie2:27

       They're tired of life.

   30. TNTrevor Noah2:28

       I'm... No, you-
3. 8:53 – 15:00

   Discussion of Dream Count Novel

   1. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie8:53

      it's a workshop. No, I mean, this is amazing. But, but, but, you know, but, but I think it can be a good thing, right? For someone, and usually it's, it's, it's my wonderful Nigerians, "Oh, Chimamanda, I love your work." And I, so I said to him once, I was like, "Which one have you read?" [laughs] He said, "I've read them." I said, "Which one have you read?" He's like, "Um, the, the one about Biafra." I said, "Okay, what happened in it?"

   2. TNTrevor Noah9:13

      [laughs]

   3. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie9:13

      [laughs] So he starts laughing.

   4. TNTrevor Noah9:15

      Wow.

   5. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie9:15

      So he starts laughing, and then he tells me, "I'll read it, I'll read it."

   6. TNTrevor Noah9:18

      [laughs]

   7. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie9:18

      [laughs] You know, and then when, when it's people, when, when it's non-Nigerians, you know, usually I can tell, but then I'm s- I'm slightly gentler because, you know, sometimes non-Nigerians don't know how to handle the sort of Nigerian directness. Yes.

   8. TNTrevor Noah9:33

      Yeah.

   9. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie9:33

      But I think in general, because I n- I, I want it to be read, I've always wanted to be read, and, and I really do feel very grateful. You know how you said people have to say that, gr-

   10. TNTrevor Noah9:43

       Yeah

   11. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie9:43

       ... but I am actually quite grateful to be read. But I think fame was never a thing that I sought.

   12. TNTrevor Noah9:49

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie9:50

       And i- in some ways also because I'm not on social media, because I, I, sometimes I'm still surprised, I'm just like, "Oh, so that person actually knows me." So I'm not ... Yeah, it doesn't occupy me.

   14. TNTrevor Noah10:01

       Was, was that a, was that an intentional choice to not be on social media?

   15. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie10:05

       Yes, yes. Yes.

   16. TNTrevor Noah10:05

       Wh- what was it?

   17. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie10:09

       Um, self-preservation.

   18. TNTrevor Noah10:11

       Huh.

   19. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie10:12

       So not in a high-minded way, by the way. Just because I know that I will get into fights-

   20. TNTrevor Noah10:17

       [laughs]

   21. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie10:18

       ... with people. [laughs] And it will not end well.

   22. TNTrevor Noah10:21

       [laughs]

   23. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie10:21

       [laughs] So I thought- So you, you're the person, you would reply if somebody at you and says something you don't like? Oh, I would find where you lived- [laughs] ... and come to your house. [laughs]

   24. TNTrevor Noah10:29

       You know, that's how we met.

   25. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie10:31

       Yeah. Wait, what? How we-

   26. TNTrevor Noah10:33

       That's how, that's how Christiana and I met

   27. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie10:34

       ... I, I'd love to tell the story.

   28. TNTrevor Noah10:35

       You-

   29. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie10:35

       It's crazy. When Trevor first got his job at The Daily Show, he had, um, a, a guest on that I didn't agree with, that I thought he shouldn't have had it. I stand by that.

   30. TNTrevor Noah10:44

       Uh-huh.
4. 15:00 – 35:39

   Exploring fame's impact on art and authenticity

   1. TNTrevor Noah15:00

      the past 10 years. So when I was doing The Daily Show, most of my life was just in America and in the US. I couldn't really leave much. And now I get to spend more time going back to South Africa and traveling around, and one of the biggest things I've realized is in America, f- more than most places I've been to, people wear their politics as their culture.

   2. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie15:18

      Mm.

   3. TNTrevor Noah15:18

      But where I'm from, your culture is your culture.

   4. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie15:20

      Mm.

   5. SPSpeaker15:20

      Yeah.

   6. TNTrevor Noah15:21

      Do, do you know what I mean?

   7. SPSpeaker15:21

      Yeah.

   8. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie15:22

      Absolutely.

   9. TNTrevor Noah15:22

      So no one would dare say, "Where I'm from, I am a Republican, or I am..." No, no, no. I'm Xhosa, I'm Zulu.

   10. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie15:29

       Mm.

   11. TNTrevor Noah15:29

       I'm Tswana, I'm Pedi, I'm-

   12. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie15:30

       But that's also because our politics in Africa is not ideological though.

   13. TNTrevor Noah15:34

       Oh, what do you mean-

   14. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie15:34

       That's-

   15. TNTrevor Noah15:34

       What do you mean by that?

   16. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie15:35

       But it's not though. It's, I mean, is there in South Africa a party that you could say is on the left and on the right and in the center based on their policies?

   17. TNTrevor Noah15:44

       You know, now, I know it sounds crazy, but because of Trump, they're emerging in some ways. But previously there wasn't ... I, let's put it this way. All the major parties in South Africa will have very similar, um, promises or ideals.

   18. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie16:02

       Mm-hmm.

   19. TNTrevor Noah16:02

       They just have differences on how they believe they're gonna get there. So-

   20. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie16:06

       Mm

   21. TNTrevor Noah16:07

       ... most of them wouldn't argue that healthcare is a right. They all go like, "No, no, we, everyone should have healthcare, and there should be free education and they..." But then they'll argue about the permutations of how to get there. To, and I think at that, you know, in agreeing with what you're saying.

   22. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie16:21

       Yeah, but I'm just thinking about what ... I, I think that this kind of polarization, even that word I don't like, I think it preceded Trump.

   23. SPSpeaker16:29

       Interesting.

   24. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie16:29

       I think Trump maybe it was, but do you ... I mean in-

   25. SPSpeaker16:32

       I, I think I ... It was p- I felt it with Trump.

   26. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie16:35

       Yeah. Yeah.

   27. SPSpeaker16:35

       Maybe, maybe, maybe that's a result of like the bubble I was in myself.

   28. TNTrevor Noah16:40

       Yeah, yeah.

   29. SPSpeaker16:40

       I just think we're in a time where people feel really defensive about what they believe, and there's not much step- base for negotiation.

   30. TNTrevor Noah16:49

       I felt-
5. 35:39 – 45:00

   Critique of American Academia

   1. SPSpeaker35:40

      I'm, I'm interested because we kind of started this, where we're talking about, you know, you, you don't look at the fame, you don't think about audience.

   2. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie35:49

      Mm. For fiction.

   3. SPSpeaker35:49

      For fiction.

   4. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie35:50

      Mm.

   5. SPSpeaker35:51

      Are there moments when you're writing fiction when you're like, "That feels ... I can't go there"?

   6. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie35:57

      Never.

   7. SPSpeaker35:57

      Never?

   8. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie35:58

      Nope.

   9. SPSpeaker35:59

      Okay.

   10. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie35:59

       Nope.

   11. SPSpeaker36:00

       So you, it's kind of there's a fearlessness that comes with-

   12. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie36:02

       Yeah, yeah

   13. SPSpeaker36:03

       ... the fiction.

   14. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie36:03

       Yeah. I call it a radical honesty.

   15. SPSpeaker36:06

       Okay.

   16. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie36:06

       And that's the only way that I can feel happy. [laughs] Fiction really makes me happy when it's going well, really makes me happy. And, and I can tell when ... And I, you know, there a few times in my life when I've held back in my fiction, and I, I can tell.

   17. SPSpeaker36:20

       Okay.

   18. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie36:20

       You know, I can tell that I, um ... In some ways, it's like letting yourself down. I can tell.

   19. SPSpeaker36:26

       Can you say when you felt you held back?

   20. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie36:28

       In some of the stories in The Thing Around Your Neck-

   21. SPSpeaker36:30

       Okay

   22. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie36:30

       ... I think that I, you know, I held back in a way.

   23. SPSpeaker36:35

       Why? Why did you? I know you don't like the why questions-

   24. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie36:37

       Um-

   25. SPSpeaker36:37

       ... but why did you?

   26. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie36:37

       [laughs] No, this is a different one-

   27. SPSpeaker36:39

       [laughs]

   28. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie36:39

       ... different, different kind of why question. Um, I guess because I- This, I just felt like maybe I just shouldn't go there, maybe I shouldn't be as honest as I think, maybe I shouldn't let this character be its full self in a way, um, his or her full self. I don't know. But anyway, the point is, I think if I learned anything from doing that, it's that it just doesn't make me happy. It doesn't feel true. It doesn't feel authentic. I, so some of those short stories I don't like actually. But no, Dream Count, no, I, I don't hold back. I, I go where the character takes me. [laughs]

   29. SPSpeaker37:10

       [laughs]

   30. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie37:11

       It's a revelation.
6. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Discussion about love and relationships in literature

   1. TNTrevor Noah45:00

      uh, deposition or whatever it might be, and it sullies somebody's case that's not involved with that dep-

   2. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie45:05

      Yeah

   3. TNTrevor Noah45:05

      Do you know what I mean? But it just-

   4. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie45:06

      The, the spectacle of it all, you know-

   5. TNTrevor Noah45:08

      It, it, it just creates noise-

   6. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie45:09

      ... diminishes the gravity of what's happening

   7. TNTrevor Noah45:09

      ... and it creates-

   8. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie45:10

      Yeah

   9. TNTrevor Noah45:10

      Uh, another example is the Luigi Mangione.

   10. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie45:13

       Oh, but we like to see Luigi.

   11. TNTrevor Noah45:14

       Yeah, but what I was saying is-

   12. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie45:15

       He's handsome

   13. TNTrevor Noah45:15

       ... but I was going like, "How-

   14. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie45:16

       [laughs]

   15. TNTrevor Noah45:16

       You tell me, you tell me how you have that trial when the, publicly they've already said-

   16. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie45:21

       Yes

   17. TNTrevor Noah45:21

       ... you know-

   18. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie45:22

       Yeah

   19. TNTrevor Noah45:22

       ... the shooter, and when he shot.

   20. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie45:24

       Yes.

   21. TNTrevor Noah45:24

       And how do you now then have-

   22. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie45:26

       Yes

   23. TNTrevor Noah45:26

       ... a trial of somebody-

   24. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie45:28

       Yes

   25. TNTrevor Noah45:28

       ... when, when that's already been done?

   26. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie45:30

       Yeah.

   27. TNTrevor Noah45:30

       And you see, it, it's interesting when you say that and you talk about the perp walk.

   28. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie45:34

       Yeah.

   29. TNTrevor Noah45:34

       I can think of maybe at least 10 examples in the book where the fiction of this book still comments on the realness of, of, of America, and it's like-

   30. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie45:43

       Mm-hmm
7. 1:00:00 – 1:22:09

   Critique of American academia and institutional trust

   1. TNTrevor Noah1:00:00

      the ... You, you weren't there at The Daily Show yet, but in our, in our first few years we went to, um, we went to New Hampshire for the primaries. And I remember being so shocked at how Lindsey Graham's team was buddy-buddy with Hillary Clinton's team, and Lindsey Graham would send Hillary Clinton birthday messages and talk about her family. When you saw these people on a stage speaking about each other, they, they didn't even mince words. They would say, "This person is gonna destroy this country. They are killing this country." They ... You know, and I've spoken to people who are far smarter than me in the world of politics, and they say it all started with Clinton around the Monica Lewinsky. They say that's when American politics became personal and, like, quote-unquote, "evil, not evil". You know?

   2. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:00:41

      They say it was created by Newt Gingrich.

   3. TNTrevor Noah1:00:43

      Yeah, yeah. But I think that's where it be-

   4. SPSpeaker1:00:45

      Mm

   5. TNTrevor Noah1:00:45

      ... it became a thing. So if your leaders are saying ... You see, now this is where now we come back to other politics.

   6. SPSpeaker1:00:52

      Mm.

   7. TNTrevor Noah1:00:52

      One of the things I've loved about going back to South Africa frequently is realizing that even in the, the doldrums of, of fighting in, in, in, in politics, I've never heard a politician say the other person is the devil. Or they're destroying the country or they, they don't agree with how they're doing it. They'll say they're incompetent at their job. They haven't met service delivery.

   8. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:01:12

      Mm-hmm.

   9. TNTrevor Noah1:01:12

      They, they ... But I, I really, I'm, maybe my memory-

   10. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:01:15

       Those ad hominem kind of-

   11. TNTrevor Noah1:01:17

       Those, those attacks were-

   12. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:01:18

       Yeah

   13. TNTrevor Noah1:01:18

       ... the thing, think of the things that people have said, right, about other politicians, and then think of how incongruous that is with them and how they are with each other. They have lunch together.

   14. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:01:28

       Mm.

   15. TNTrevor Noah1:01:28

       They have dinner together. They, they, right? What then happens is their fans then adopt a thing that they don't believe in, but now the fans are the ones who control the theater of it all, the spectacle. And I don't know if you-

   16. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:01:42

       Mm-hmm

   17. TNTrevor Noah1:01:42

       ... there's a really, um, amazing documentary I watched, uh, about, um, Vince McMahon. It's, it's fa- fascinating. Even if you don't like wrestling, I recommend everybody watch this thing.

   18. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:01:50

       I was going to say, who is Vince McMahon?

   19. TNTrevor Noah1:01:51

       Vince McMahon is the man who basically made wrestling what it is today, right? I promise you now, don't you d- ... It, it's even better if you don't like wrestling, in fact. Go and watch it.

   20. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:02:01

       [laughs]

   21. TNTrevor Noah1:02:02

       And one of the most revealing-

   22. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:02:03

       Trevor, life is so short. There's so mu-

   23. TNTrevor Noah1:02:04

       Oh, let me tell you

   24. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:02:05

       ... so much I want to watch and I have less-

   25. TNTrevor Noah1:02:06

       I would not recommend this to you-

   26. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:02:08

       [laughs]

   27. TNTrevor Noah1:02:08

       ... if I did not believe it would give you-

   28. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:02:10

       But-

   29. TNTrevor Noah1:02:10

       ... an, an insight into America that very few documentaries can, right? Because one of the main things it shows you is how, like, there's a, there's a point where, long story short, the wrestling federations are splitting, and the wrestlers decide before these ... like, a few of the wrestlers leave. They decide they're gonna give each other a big hug on the stage and they're gonna ... They'll basically drop the, the facade. And you should see the crowd and the way they react. The crowd, I was like, "But surely they know that it's not real."

   30. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:02:38

       Wait, wait. So the crowd got very angry.
8. 1:22:09 – 1:36:37

   Analysis of American perspective on global issues

   1. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:22:09

      ... So for me, when you talk about understand, I would always go, yeah, if somebody has a funny accent, it can be funny. But don't ever forget that it means that they speak another language fluently.

   2. TNTrevor Noah1:22:18

      Mm.

   3. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:22:18

      That's why they have the accent.

   4. TNTrevor Noah1:22:20

      Mm.

   5. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:22:20

      And so when, when I, when I think of these things, I, I, I was, I was doing shows in the Middle East, and my friend said to me, "Hey, man, uh, I mean, uh, don't ... aren't you conflicted? You go to the Middle East, and you do shows, and..." And I said, "What am ... what do you want me to be conflicted about?" And they said, "Well, I mean, you know, the, the, their views on gay marriage." And I said, "It's interesting that you ask me this because America's views on gay marriage are, are not as, as old as you think." Like, this is a now thing. Do, do you get what I'm saying?

   6. TNTrevor Noah1:22:49

      Yeah, but we have to remember homophobia is alive and well in America.

   7. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:22:52

      But what I'm saying is-

   8. TNTrevor Noah1:22:53

      [laughs]

   9. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:22:53

      ... what, what, what got me with that was I was saying I'm not dismissing it. F- f- far from it, you know what I mean? But what I'm saying is it's interesting how, for me, when America has finished with an issue or has decided a place, it then now goes, "That is correct now for the world."

   10. TNTrevor Noah1:23:11

       Yep, yep.

   11. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:23:11

       So before gay marriage is accepted in America, Americans go like, "No, gay marriage is ... No, God ... Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Come on. We all agree on this." America says, "Gay marriage," and then America goes around, on a conquest around the world pointing at every country to be like, "Where's your gay marriage?" And then I go, "Guys, how old is the UAE as a-

   12. TNTrevor Noah1:23:28

       Mm

   13. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:23:28

       ... as a place?"

   14. TNTrevor Noah1:23:29

       Mm.

   15. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:23:29

       Like, as a, as an actual country, how old is it?

   16. TNTrevor Noah1:23:32

       Mm.

   17. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:23:32

       And I go, if you look at the advancements they've made-

   18. TNTrevor Noah1:23:34

       Mm

   19. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:23:35

       ... in the time that they've been a country versus how long it took America to get to those places, it's actually pretty impressive. Now, you want them to do it overnight because you've already agreed upon it, but you're not giving them their time to get to it, which I think we all do as people. Why have you not found Jesus yet?

   20. TNTrevor Noah1:23:51

       [laughs]

   21. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:23:51

       I found Jesus. Then you're like, "Yeah, but there was a time when you hadn't found Jesus."

   22. TNTrevor Noah1:23:53

       [laughs]

   23. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:23:55

       Yes, but now that I've-

   24. TNTrevor Noah1:23:55

       You know-

   25. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:23:55

       ... found Him, why don't you find Jesus? Do, do you understand what I'm saying?

   26. TNTrevor Noah1:23:59

       Yeah. When you say we all do it, I don't think we all do it. But anyway.

   27. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:24:02

       Or maybe you ... I think-

   28. TNTrevor Noah1:24:03

       I don't.

   29. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:24:04

       Yeah. No, but I think when I say all, I mean the collective-

   30. TNTrevor Noah1:24:06

       Mm
9. 1:36:37 – 1:39:13

   Fiction as the last frontier of truth

   1. TNTrevor Noah1:36:37

      to. Because in a weird way, fiction creates, I mean, just the most real reality.

   2. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:36:42

      It does. It does.

   3. SPSpeaker1:36:43

      You couldn't have said it better.

   4. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:36:45

      [laughs]

   5. SPSpeaker1:36:45

      Bravo.

   6. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:36:46

      [laughs] People should read more novels and short stories.

   7. TNTrevor Noah1:36:51

      I agree.

   8. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:36:52

      And sometimes even the old ones, because there's just lovely wisdom in them, I think.

   9. TNTrevor Noah1:36:57

      Mm.

   10. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:36:57

       I mean, you know-

   11. TNTrevor Noah1:36:57

       Do you have any favorites you'd recommend?

   12. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:37:00

       Um, old or, or recent?

   13. TNTrevor Noah1:37:02

       No, old. Old. Yeah, old.

   14. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:37:04

       I really like Middlemarch. I think it's very, it's very long, but it's very wise and just really ... I was going to say teaches you, but actually it does. [laughs]

   15. TNTrevor Noah1:37:13

       Yeah.

   16. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:37:14

       You know, in a way that you're having fun, but you're also learning and, and you're in the hands of a very wise writer. There's a, a wonderful writer from Poland who wrote this book called The Beautiful Missus, and I cannot pronounce the name, Seidenman. But if you just Google The Beautiful Missus, it, I'm sure Google-

   17. TNTrevor Noah1:37:31

       It'll come up. Yeah, it will come up

   18. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:37:32

       ... will think. I also just find it very wise. I love realism. I don't really like speculative fiction. I'm not interested in science fiction. And I, I, I just feel like I learn the most from novels because I learn about human beings.

   19. TNTrevor Noah1:37:46

       Mm.

   20. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:37:46

       And I think it helps, it helps me understand the world and helps me ... Oh, there's something I forgot to say, which I have to say.

   21. TNTrevor Noah1:37:52

       Which is?

   22. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:37:53

       So I increasingly am, am fascinated by how what people think is sophisticated is, in fact, not at all.

   23. TNTrevor Noah1:38:01

       Hmm.

   24. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:38:02

       I mean, there, there's a sense in which the, the arguments and the positions are really incredibly simple and simplistic. But, but the people who, who talk about them think that they're very sophisticated.

   25. TNTrevor Noah1:38:17

       Yes.

   26. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:38:19

       And I'm thinking about that because of what you said about a certain kind of, um, maybe an ins- an insufficient self-knowledge. So in other words, the way that America thinks that it is still leading the world-

   27. TNTrevor Noah1:38:32

       Yes

   28. CAChimamanda Ngozi Adichie1:38:33

       ... is the same way that I think certain people in America think that they're incredibly sophisticated in their thinking, but actually it's very provincial and simple.

   29. TNTrevor Noah1:38:41

       Yes. That I can agree with.

   30. SPSpeaker1:38:42

       Mm. Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:39:13