The Totally Very Real White Genocide in South Africa w/ Dan Corder & Eugene Khoza - What Now Podcast

Trevor Noah 0:01 [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 0:04 No, guys. At my Pick n Pay, they know me as the kid who used to shoplift.

Dan Corder 0:08 Mm.

Trevor Noah 0:08 Do you know what I mean? So at that Pick n Pay, when I walk past, they're like, "Wena." [laughs]

Dan Corder 0:13 Cash, my dad-

Trevor Noah 0:14 I hope this time you come in-

Dan Corder 0:15 You can extradite this man. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 0:17 [laughs]

Dan Corder 0:24 Not a crime.

Eugene Khoza 0:25 I saw Trevor No- even Trevor Noah.

Trevor Noah 0:27 Even Trevor.

Eugene Khoza 0:28 He admitted criminal.

Dan Corder 0:29 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 0:29 He used to be a criminal in South Africa.

Dan Corder 0:31 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 0:31 He used to steal all the time. I wonder if we could do something. We could probably do something. We gotta look at this, this, that. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 0:38 [laughs]

Dan Corder 0:39 Cash, do your job.

Eugene Khoza 0:39 Cash, do your thing, Cash.

Trevor Noah 0:41 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 0:41 Do your thing. He admitted it on camera. He admitted it. [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 0:51 This is What Now? With Trevor Noah. [upbeat music] For every conversation, he leans in. Eugene, I'm telling you, bro, we need to make that show. He leans in. Come again?

Dan Corder 1:10 There you go. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:11 That's all.

Dan Corder 1:12 Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:13 He investigates all the claims. [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:16 Eugene! [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:18 He leans in. Eugene Khoza is-

Dan Corder 1:21 [laughs] Leaning in

Trevor Noah 1:22 ... local detective.

Dan Corder 1:23 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:24 How much?

Dan Corder 1:24 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:26 How many do we need to report these funds?

Dan Corder 1:28 I'm also sensing that Eugene only asks questions of two words.

Trevor Noah 1:32 How much?

Dan Corder 1:32 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:33 That's, that's Eugene.

Dan Corder 1:33 How many?

Trevor Noah 1:34 That's Eugene.

Dan Corder 1:35 When last?

Trevor Noah 1:36 [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:36 It's just two ques-

Trevor Noah 1:38 That's when you-

Dan Corder 1:38 Two questions

Trevor Noah 1:38 ... that's when you get in. That's when you get in.

Dan Corder 1:39 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:40 Uh, Dan, welcome, welcome to the podcast.

Dan Corder 1:42 Thanks, man.

Trevor Noah 1:43 I, I apologize that you met me on a day that I'm with Eugene, because it means w- a- anything can happen here.

Dan Corder 1:47 Good.

Trevor Noah 1:48 But I think that's the perfect setting for a conversation about genocide.

Dan Corder 1:52 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:53 About not just genocide. Not just genocide, guys, but a white genocide.

Dan Corder 1:59 The white one.

Trevor Noah 2:00 A white genocide.

Dan Corder 2:02 The worst genocides.

Trevor Noah 2:03 Which, as we know, is the worst genocide of all. [laughs]

Dan Corder 2:05 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 2:06 You know of which, how many have you committed this week?

Dan Corder 2:08 Me?

Trevor Noah 2:09 Apparently there's a lot of them in this country. [laughs]

Dan Corder 2:10 So, so personally-

Trevor Noah 2:12 If-

Dan Corder 2:12 ... I always start my week with a genocide of food.

Trevor Noah 2:14 [laughs]

Dan Corder 2:15 All South Africans.

Trevor Noah 2:16 [laughs]

Dan Corder 2:17 This is what we do.

Trevor Noah 2:18 If-

Dan Corder 2:19 You know, my father always used to tell me, "Trevor, must do genocide."

Trevor Noah 2:22 Sorry, your Swiss father.

Dan Corder 2:23 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 2:24 You know, Dan, don't spoil the jokes, bro.

Dan Corder 2:25 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 2:26 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 2:27 Why are you spoiling the jokes, Dan?

Dan Corder 2:28 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 2:29 Now I have to reveal to everyone that my father was a white man who lived in South Africa and loved it.

Dan Corder 2:33 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 2:33 Damn it, Dan.

Dan Corder 2:34 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 2:35 You, you're spoiling the narrative, Dan.

Dan Corder 2:36 I thought it could've been a, like, an interesting narrative arc-

Trevor Noah 2:39 No, Dan

Dan Corder 2:39 ... if the Swiss white man is also-

Trevor Noah 2:40 No, Dan

Dan Corder 2:41 ... committing white genocide.

Trevor Noah 2:42 This guy. You're revealing my backstory, Dan.

Dan Corder 2:44 Oh, no one read the book?

Trevor Noah 2:45 No one. [laughs]

Dan Corder 2:47 [laughs] Everyone read the book.

Trevor Noah 2:49 But okay. So this, this... You know what? This is what I, I found particularly strange about this conversation. A lot of the time I'll, I'll have a conversation with people and we're trying to, like, figure something out moving forwards. I feel like for this conversation, we're trying to figure something else. We're trying to figure something out backwards, right?

Dan Corder 3:07 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 3:07 Because I'll just put people on the timeline. So I, I know a lot of people in America, a lot of people in the UK, et cetera, et cetera, are going, "What is happening in South Africa?" A lot of people are like, "We heard there's a genocide. We heard that white people are being mass slaughtered. There's a, a whole thing." So then the whole world woke up. So you, you guys live in South Africa. I was in New York, then I saw the story start bubbling. So obviously I follow South African news, but you know, there's stories where it's like, guys, they don't come. Like Eskom-

Dan Corder 3:34 Mm

Trevor Noah 3:34 ... doesn't come. The story doesn't actually come to America.

Dan Corder 3:36 Mm.

Trevor Noah 3:37 Right? This story started overlapping.

Dan Corder 3:39 Mm.

Trevor Noah 3:39 And slowly you started to realize that it became part of the news, like international news.

Dan Corder 3:44 Mm.

Trevor Noah 3:44 Okay?

Dan Corder 3:45 Mm.

Trevor Noah 3:45 Then it was interesting. International journalists stepped in and said, "We want to get to the bottom of what's happening. Because how could a genocide be happening under our noses and we don't know about it?"

Dan Corder 3:55 Mm.

Trevor Noah 3:55 Right? So the BBC, uh, CNN, you name it.

Dan Corder 3:59 Al Jazeera, mm.

Trevor Noah 3:59 Yeah. I was even getting requests, people emailing me, "Hi, Trevor. Are you safe?"

Dan Corder 4:03 Oh.

Trevor Noah 4:03 "Are you- We heard there's a genocide."

Dan Corder 4:05 Oh, they didn't ask if you were safe?

Trevor Noah 4:06 No, no one asked if I was safe. Because they're like, "We know where you live."

Dan Corder 4:09 It would be incredibly funny if Facebook asked you to check in as a white person each day-

Trevor Noah 4:13 [laughs]

Dan Corder 4:13 ... about whether you were still breathing. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 4:15 [laughs]

Dan Corder 4:16 That would be very good.

Trevor Noah 4:17 But what was interesting was as quickly as it blew up internationally-

Dan Corder 4:21 Mm

Trevor Noah 4:22 ... it dropped off.

Dan Corder 4:23 Mm.

Trevor Noah 4:24 I saw conversations everywhere. One of them was obviously-

Dan Corder 4:26 Mm

Trevor Noah 4:26 ... you went on Piers Morgan.

Dan Corder 4:27 Mm. I went to my house.

Trevor Noah 4:29 You were in your house.

Dan Corder 4:30 Yeah. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 4:31 And I don't know, maybe we start with this. Were you shocked, Dan, when you go on Piers Morgan-

Dan Corder 4:35 Yeah

Trevor Noah 4:35 ... and you almost, you're coming there to talk about the fact that there is no genocide.

Dan Corder 4:41 Mm.

Trevor Noah 4:41 There's a whole panel of other people, you know, who are ... Like half of them are there to say there is a genocide, and then they go-

Dan Corder 4:47 There isn't

Trevor Noah 4:47 ... they, they go, "There is no genocide." So maybe that's where I want to start. Like-

Dan Corder 4:51 Mm

Trevor Noah 4:51 ... how is it that there's a conversation that's going all over the world about a thing that isn't actually happening? And I don't mean, like, isn't happening, like some people feel it is, some people isn't. No, it isn't actually happening.

Dan Corder 5:03 At all.

Trevor Noah 5:04 So how did this start?

Dan Corder 5:05 Yeah. So I think that, uh, over the last 10 years, a, a, a raft of genuinely very talented grifters in South Africa have snake oil salesman-ed this idea without saying it themselves on the last step. So someone like Ernst Roets is very clever. He will twist the data and, and decontextualize facts-

Trevor Noah 5:26 Yeah

Dan Corder 5:26 ... to make it look like something particularly bad is happening, and then he will go on Jordan Peterson and Tucker Carlson, and he'll never say there's a white genocide. He'll stop just before, and then let people fill in where he's directing it to. Similarly, most of this cuck has taken place on the dark place formerly known as Twitter, like aided and abetted by Elon Musk. And on Twitter, these big established public voices who need to have a degree of tetheredness to reality stop just short of saying, "This is the worst thing ever." Like with these race laws, they stop just short of saying these, there are more race laws than apartheid, therefore-

Trevor Noah 5:58 Yeah

Dan Corder 5:58 ... it's worse than apartheid. But then they let the anonymous bot troll campaigns on Twitter, which are sometimes just useful idiots, but sometimes paid-for campaigners jump to the last level. So there was this X account called Twitter Boss. There still is. And Elon Musk, he posted a lot of his stuff. Twitter Boss was just lying about a bunch of things, but what happened was the public figures did the groundwork to allow the lunatics to then lie on top of what they were saying, and then it ended up being Musk re- uh, repeating and sharing these kinds of nonsense ideas all the way into the White House. And then when Trump went executive order time-

Trevor Noah 6:33 Yeah

Dan Corder 6:33 ... that's when it became around the world.

Trevor Noah 6:34 Yeah-

Dan Corder 6:34 Because-

Trevor Noah 6:34 ... that's when it became, that's when it became international news

Dan Corder 6:35 ... because frankly, I just feel like Trump and his right wing love a white victim. All of their immigration stuff in America is about be terrified of the brown person, be terrified of the non-English speaking person.

Trevor Noah 6:46 Yeah, yeah.

Dan Corder 6:47 They love a white victim, but it's hard to find white victims, [laughs] guys. The history of the world makes it pretty hard to find white victims, but if somebody could come along and concoct the downtrodden, tragic, in danger white person, beleaguered in South Africa, and we can save them, then that ticks all of the boxes for that kind of campaign. And I don't know if you noticed, but it seemed like every single time for about two months Trump had a bad day, he then tweeted about South Africa. We were the, the, the punching bag to change the narrative, to distract away, to misdirect from the other stuff that was going on in his life that would look dangerous. So I think that we were useful fodder. The way that, like, our, um, our diplomat, uh, Ebrahim Rasool, and then special envoy M- M- Mabusi Jonas, uh, suddenly got covered by Breitbart News and Fox News.

Trevor Noah 7:31 Yeah.

Dan Corder 7:31 They were turned into these dangers because it was very useful to fit the kind of MAGA narrative.

Trevor Noah 7:36 But, uh, what happened 10 years ago? What am I missing? Like, what ... Like, w- I get that we're saying something started, but why did it start? I'm still intrigued by the why of it all.

Eugene Khoza 7:46 Mm.

Trevor Noah 7:46 Do you know what I mean?

Eugene Khoza 7:47 Mm.

Trevor Noah 7:47 Like, what is the purpose of starting a campaign to say there's a genocide where there is none? When are you ... Eugene, when was the first time you heard about it?

Eugene Khoza 7:55 Hm. Nami, I was the same.

Dan Corder 7:57 When did you get the email?

Trevor Noah 7:58 No, I'm being serious. When-

Eugene Khoza 7:59 I was surprised. Nami.

Trevor Noah 8:00 No, but I'm being serious though.

Eugene Khoza 8:00 Nami was like-

Trevor Noah 8:01 When was, when was the first time-

Eugene Khoza 8:02 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 8:02 ... you ever heard about, like, white genocide in South Africa?

Eugene Khoza 8:04 Uh, it was this year. It was when everyone caught onto it. I almost felt like I was part of living in another country, 'cause I looked outside and I was like-

Trevor Noah 8:10 That's crazy

Eugene Khoza 8:11 ... "Where is this thing happening?" And I checked on my neighbor. She was fine, but she's hasn't been fine for a long time ment- mentally. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 8:17 [laughs]

Dan Corder 8:17 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 8:18 Four cats, one lady. I was like, "Well, if it were to happen, it would start at number 43."

Trevor Noah 8:24 [laughs]

Dan Corder 8:25 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 8:25 But it wasn't happening. But I get what Dan is saying. I think, um, there's a lot of victimhood that's going on, and a lot of what people don't speak about in South Africa is the minority that oppressed the majority is still playing victim 30 years later. The other surprising thing, and I was saying to you the other time, I was like, "The genius of this whole concocted plan was for the former oppressor, who's still oppressing some other people, to get an apology and a guarantee of nothing will happen to you." Whereas they'll never ... They have never apologized. They showed me how organized they were as an Afrikaans community group. They have universities, they have unions, they have legal a- they have everything.

Trevor Noah 9:00 They speak collectively.

Eugene Khoza 9:01 They speak collectively.

Trevor Noah 9:01 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 9:01 But they've never said collectively, even after when apartheid was declared a crime against humanity, "We are sorry for what our culture and our nation has contributed to the people of this country." But they could organize and say, "We are being killed."

Trevor Noah 9:15 Can I tell you, can I tell you what I find interesting is-

Eugene Khoza 9:18 Mm

Trevor Noah 9:18 ... I'll do shows, like, in random places, right?

Eugene Khoza 9:22 Mm.

Trevor Noah 9:22 Some more random than others, but let's say if I'm in Australia somewhere, whatever, a lot of South Africans will come.

Eugene Khoza 9:26 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 9:26 And it's a broad range of South Africans.

Eugene Khoza 9:29 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 9:29 But I, I have yet to meet a South African who left South Africa during apartheid or maybe even afterwards-

Eugene Khoza 9:38 Mm

Trevor Noah 9:38 ... who says they supported it.

Dan Corder 9:39 Yes. That's what I was about to say.

Trevor Noah 9:40 Like, guys, I have yet ... Let me tell you something. I have ... And I don't even mean this in, like, a-

Eugene Khoza 9:44 No

Trevor Noah 9:44 ... I just go, "This was a system that was well run."

Eugene Khoza 9:48 Mm.

Trevor Noah 9:48 "It was supported. It ... I mean-"

Dan Corder 9:52 Who voted for this?

Trevor Noah 9:53 I'm just like-

Dan Corder 9:53 Where are they?

Trevor Noah 9:54 Yo.

Dan Corder 9:54 Like, like, where are all the people who had to have voted?

Trevor Noah 9:57 Guys, I can't, I can't find even 20-

Dan Corder 9:58 I can't find a guy

Trevor Noah 9:58 ... I can't find 20 of them.

Dan Corder 9:59 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 10:00 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 10:00 Even ... No, even, even the people you're talking about-

Dan Corder 10:02 Yeah

Trevor Noah 10:02 ... who are now leading these, like, pro-

Eugene Khoza 10:04 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 10:04 ... Afrikaner, pro ... And, like, extreme.

Eugene Khoza 10:06 Yes.

Trevor Noah 10:06 'Cause, I mean, we've gotta be careful. Like, you can be pro-Afrikaner-

Eugene Khoza 10:09 Yeah.

Dan Corder 10:09 Totally

Trevor Noah 10:10 ... but not be, like, a heavy nationalist and so-

Dan Corder 10:12 Totally

Trevor Noah 10:12 ... there's, like, a split there. You know what I mean?

Eugene Khoza 10:13 100%, yeah.

Trevor Noah 10:14 But even the groups that are running far right, leaning, if you say to them, "Do you support apartheid?" Then they go, "Uh, let me ... I never."

Eugene Khoza 10:22 Mm.

Trevor Noah 10:22 "That was a terrible, terrible time."

Dan Corder 10:24 Mm-hmm.

Eugene Khoza 10:25 Mm.

Trevor Noah 10:25 "And I never, w- I never s- even then-

Dan Corder 10:27 Mm

Trevor Noah 10:28 ... I didn't. I had a picture of Mandela on my wall."

Eugene Khoza 10:31 [laughs]

Dan Corder 10:33 What, the Rivonia Trial picture?

Trevor Noah 10:34 [laughs]

Dan Corder 10:34 'Cause he was in jail for 27 years.

Eugene Khoza 10:36 Yeah, I'm just like-

Dan Corder 10:36 This grainy old picture of the one that you get at Robben Island in the suit in the quarry. Everyone has that picture.

Eugene Khoza 10:42 [laughs] Out the window.

Trevor Noah 10:42 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 10:43 [laughs]

Dan Corder 10:43 And they, and they're like, they's like, "I, I would've voted for him three times if I could have."

Trevor Noah 10:46 I would. If I could have.

Eugene Khoza 10:48 Could have.

Trevor Noah 10:48 If I could have.

Dan Corder 10:48 Would've. Would've.

Trevor Noah 10:48 He's a g- Mandela was a great, great man. So I ... Like, this is-

Eugene Khoza 10:53 Yeah

Trevor Noah 10:53 ... this is, this is the thing that gets me.

Eugene Khoza 10:55 Mm.

Trevor Noah 10:55 And maybe, maybe that's what we need to spend our time digging into. This-

Eugene Khoza 10:58 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 10:58 ... it's gonna be fun, is like-

Eugene Khoza 10:59 The Afrikaans accent?

Trevor Noah 11:00 No, it's j-

Eugene Khoza 11:01 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 11:02 It is a great accent, actually.

Eugene Khoza 11:03 It is 100% great.

Trevor Noah 11:03 But it's like, you know, Dan, when you, when you talk about, like, white victimhood, it's been interesting seeing how this story stitches across the Atlantic Ocean.

Dan Corder 11:12 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 11:13 Stitches across, you know, like, across the top of the, the African continent.

Eugene Khoza 11:17 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 11:19 Everywhere in the world, people have a story of being, you know, subjugated, oppressed, something. It's, it's the story as old as time.

Eugene Khoza 11:26 Mm.

Trevor Noah 11:26 Right? But some of them are, like, straight up just pillaging, as my friend Eugene likes to say.

Eugene Khoza 11:30 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 11:31 He's a big fan of pillaging.

Dan Corder 11:31 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 11:32 No, there was a lot of pillaging.

Eugene Khoza 11:33 Very.

Trevor Noah 11:34 But then there's, there's, there's few ... There's a few instances where people were actually, like, oppressed because of who they were.

Eugene Khoza 11:40 Systematically.

Trevor Noah 11:40 Yeah, like, systematically oppressed.

Eugene Khoza 11:42 Yes. Yes.

Trevor Noah 11:42 Right? It's interesting how the label of victimhood, or, like, the coat of victimhood-

Eugene Khoza 11:48 Mm

Trevor Noah 11:48 ... gets to be worn most proudly by the people who are generally the perpetrators-

Eugene Khoza 11:53 Yeah

Trevor Noah 11:53 ... in these stories.

Dan Corder 11:54 The oppressor, yeah.

Trevor Noah 11:55 So here's something I found interesting.

Eugene Khoza 11:56 Mm.

Trevor Noah 11:56 We like to think of Trump as being an outlier, because Donald Trump is the one who rescued the, you know, and what is it, 49 for now.

Eugene Khoza 12:04 Mm.

Trevor Noah 12:04 Right?

Dan Corder 12:04 It was, it was actually 59. I don't know why they didn't count it properly at the airport.

Trevor Noah 12:08 It was 59, right?

Dan Corder 12:09 It was 59.

Trevor Noah 12:09 Yeah, I always thought it was 59, then people started saying 49 at the airport.

Dan Corder 12:12 I don't know.

Trevor Noah 12:12 Maybe 10 changed their mind. I don't know.

Dan Corder 12:14 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 12:14 But okay, the 49 or the 59 who were, who were rescued, quote-unquote.

Dan Corder 12:18 Yeah, the refugees.

Trevor Noah 12:19 A lot of people in America were saying to me, they're like, "Oh my God, Trevor, it must be so strange for you seeing ... I mean, like, Donald Trump." Then I was like, "It's not that strange-"

Dan Corder 12:26 Mm

Trevor Noah 12:26 ... "considering that Bill Clinton's administration gave-" Thousands of visas-

Eugene Khoza 12:34 Visas

Trevor Noah 12:35 ... to white South Africans only just before we had our first elections.

Eugene Khoza 12:39 Mm.

Dan Corder 12:39 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 12:40 Just think about this for a second.

Eugene Khoza 12:40 That hatch was open to escape.

Trevor Noah 12:41 Yo-

Eugene Khoza 12:41 Yeah

Trevor Noah 12:41 ... just think about it for a second. South Africa had just become a democracy.

Eugene Khoza 12:45 Mm.

Trevor Noah 12:45 The world stage had agreed that apartheid, apartheid-

Eugene Khoza 12:50 Is bad

Trevor Noah 12:51 ... was a crime against humanity.

Eugene Khoza 12:52 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 12:53 The whole world had done this, but just before the election-

Eugene Khoza 12:56 Mm

Trevor Noah 12:56 ... Bill Clinton's administration, not Donald Trump-

Eugene Khoza 12:59 Mm

Trevor Noah 13:00 ... Bill Clinton's administration rescued-

Eugene Khoza 13:02 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 13:02 ... 2,000 white South Africans 'cause they were like, "Hey, man, we know that you were the bad guys-

Eugene Khoza 13:08 Mm

Trevor Noah 13:08 ... but we've gotta help you escape from this situation."

Eugene Khoza 13:12 Mm.

Dan Corder 13:12 'Cause now there's about to be different blood in the blood bath.

Trevor Noah 13:15 But do you see what I'm saying?

Dan Corder 13:16 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 13:17 Like, I'm just like-

Dan Corder 13:17 Blood bath had already happened.

Trevor Noah 13:19 But I'm just-

Dan Corder 13:19 And now they're like, "There might be white blood in this blood bath. We have to get them out."

Trevor Noah 13:22 Yes, but there's never been ... Okay, maybe I'm wrong, but there's never been.

Eugene Khoza 13:25 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 13:26 Dan, I don't wanna put you on the spot.

Eugene Khoza 13:27 As a what?

Trevor Noah 13:28 As a white.

Eugene Khoza 13:28 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 13:30 As a white.

Dan Corder 13:30 Don't worry. As part of my-

Eugene Khoza 13:31 Someone had to say it. [laughs]

Dan Corder 13:33 As part of my training-

Eugene Khoza 13:34 Hugh Genocide. [laughs]

Dan Corder 13:35 Every, every morning I recite the names of every white person who has ever died in South Africa, so you can ask me about-

Eugene Khoza 13:42 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 13:42 No, but-

Dan Corder 13:42 ... any white death.

Trevor Noah 13:43 So let me ask you this. Like, maybe there's something I don't know about. Like-

Dan Corder 13:47 Yeah

Trevor Noah 13:47 ... when, when you are hanging out with white people alone.

Dan Corder 13:49 Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 13:50 Like, 'cause you live in Cape Town, or you spend a lot of time there.

Dan Corder 13:52 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 13:52 Very white there, right?

Dan Corder 13:53 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 13:53 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 13:54 Not good or bad, just very white. When you're hanging out with, like, a group ... Like, when white people are alone in South Africa, do they think genuinely that they are being targeted? Like, honest question.

Dan Corder 14:04 I think that-

Trevor Noah 14:05 For being white.

Dan Corder 14:06 Yes. I think many, I think many white people do. I will say that all my friends know my politics, so they're on-

Trevor Noah 14:12 Yeah.

Dan Corder 14:12 Like, all of my friends are pretty much my politics. So in my friendship circles no one is saying-

Trevor Noah 14:15 Okay

Dan Corder 14:15 ... "Oh, it's so hard. It's so horrible. It's so terrible." But I know because I've run WhatsApp lines when I was on 5FM, which is a historically white radio station.

Trevor Noah 14:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dan Corder 14:24 As the breakfast show host there, my TV show, The Corder Report, and everything, that a lot of people do feel that way, but it's some kind of fear of the destabilization of their privilege. Because the, the fear is as more and more Black people become middle class, more and more Black people become ... you know, like, get to the same level of wealth, and then white people think, "Okay, but what if I one day can't get a job, one day BEE does this," whatever. And I wanted to circle back on this actually to your question of what happened 10 years ago.

Trevor Noah 14:50 Yeah.

Dan Corder 14:50 I think that what happened was South Africa had the 202- 2010 World Cup. We Waka Waked our way into our peak.

Trevor Noah 14:57 Yes.

Dan Corder 14:57 Jacob Zuma came to power.

Trevor Noah 14:59 Yeah.

Dan Corder 14:59 And finally there was a Black president who was all the bad things that white people thought Black people were about.

Trevor Noah 15:06 Oh, yeah, yeah, okay.

Dan Corder 15:07 That's what happened. The state capture stuff, the Zuma corruption stuff. Suddenly the Rainbow Nation was popped. Nobody says that anymore. Nobody says Rainbow Nation anymore. That beautiful brand thing, the Desmond Tutu, the Mandela, then the Mbeki.

Trevor Noah 15:18 Yeah, yeah.

Dan Corder 15:18 And then 2010 happened. K9's Wave Your Flag was much better than Shakira's Waka Waka. We all know this to be true. But those two songs happened. The World Cup was incredible. We did the dream Rainbow Nation thing, and then service delivery started to collapse. Rampant corruption started to happen. The police started to fall apart. The whole country started to go, "Things are not going very well." But the, but, but many white South Africans had the dangerous Black president they'd been terrified of since the beginning, and that opened a space-

Trevor Noah 15:43 That's interesting

Dan Corder 15:44 ... it opened a space for white grifters to then go, "We're in trouble now. They're coming for us. They're persecuting us." White e- uh, White Economic Empowerment, Bell Pottinger. All of this was fodder for white grifters to say, "They're coming for us. We told you. We know the Blacks were nice before this."

Trevor Noah 16:00 Mm.

Dan Corder 16:01 "And we couldn't show that Thabo Mbeki was bad or Mandela was bad or-

Trevor Noah 16:04 Yeah

Dan Corder 16:04 ... Tutu was bad. But now things are objectively getting worse for lots of South Africans. Here's the Black boogeyman we were telling you is coming." And then Malema came along, and this is more Black boogeyman stuff, the terrifying Black boogeyman. And from there it all devolved to where we are now.

Trevor Noah 16:16 It's interesting you say that, 'cause you and I laugh about this a lot, but there's a thing that happens with people. And I mean, everyone can be guilty of this, by the way. I think any group. But you know where ... Let's say as Black people, you're hanging out together.

Eugene Khoza 16:31 Mm.

Trevor Noah 16:31 And you'll say something about a Black person, let's say, who's in power.

Eugene Khoza 16:35 Mm.

Trevor Noah 16:36 So as ... You know, you go like, "Jacob Zu- Jacob Zuma, this guy, this guy."

Eugene Khoza 16:39 Mm.

Trevor Noah 16:39 And then you'll find someone will step into that fray-

Eugene Khoza 16:42 Mm

Trevor Noah 16:42 ... and they'll say something where you're like, "Wait, wait, we w- we didn't mean it like that."

Eugene Khoza 16:47 Yeah. I know he's bad, but-

Trevor Noah 16:49 Yes.

Eugene Khoza 16:49 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 16:50 No, but you-

Eugene Khoza 16:50 I like bad okay

Trevor Noah 16:50 ... but you get what I mean.

Eugene Khoza 16:51 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 16:51 But they, but they'll say something-

Eugene Khoza 16:53 Yeah

Trevor Noah 16:53 ... you know ... You, you know, you'll be like, "So much corruption."

Eugene Khoza 16:55 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 16:55 So they'll be like, they'll be like, "Yeah. But I mean, what do you expect? They like that."

Eugene Khoza 16:58 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 16:58 And you're like, "Who's they?"

Eugene Khoza 16:59 Yes.

Trevor Noah 17:00 Well-

Dan Corder 17:01 Oh, sorry, so are, are you saying a Black person was-

Trevor Noah 17:03 Yeah, no, no. What I, what I'm saying is-

Dan Corder 17:04 ... amongst Black company? Okay

Trevor Noah 17:05 ... what I'm saying is to ... What you, what you've revealed, which is really interesting, is Black people have the ability to separate an action that is Black culturally-

Dan Corder 17:15 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 17:16 ... and a person that is Black that is just doing something.

Dan Corder 17:18 Right.

Eugene Khoza 17:19 Mm.

Dan Corder 17:19 Okay.

Trevor Noah 17:19 Do you see what I'm saying?

Dan Corder 17:19 Yeah, I hear you.

Trevor Noah 17:20 What I've noticed in a lot of these conversations is there are synonyms that are used-

Eugene Khoza 17:24 Mm

Trevor Noah 17:25 ... for actions.

Eugene Khoza 17:26 Mm.

Trevor Noah 17:26 So even when people are talking to Donald Trump in the White House-

Eugene Khoza 17:28 Mm

Trevor Noah 17:28 ... even when people are on the news or talking to Piers Morgan, even when, when they're going like, "Look, th- there might not be a genocide, but the crime"

Eugene Khoza 17:37 Yes.

Trevor Noah 17:38 Crime has become a synonym for Black.

Eugene Khoza 17:40 For Black. Mm.

Dan Corder 17:40 Just like the community.

Eugene Khoza 17:42 Same as corruption.

Trevor Noah 17:43 Yes, corruption is also a synonym for Black.

Dan Corder 17:44 The community.

Eugene Khoza 17:45 Violence, crime.

Dan Corder 17:46 The townships.

Trevor Noah 17:47 Yes.

Dan Corder 17:47 The p-

Trevor Noah 17:47 Yes

Dan Corder 17:47 ... like, like it's all wink, nudge.

Trevor Noah 17:49 It's another way to say Black.

Dan Corder 17:50 Exactly. It's like the way that Black Lives Matter evolved into DEI, which they-

Trevor Noah 17:54 Yeah, yeah

Dan Corder 17:54 ... now are so obsessed with. It's code word-

Trevor Noah 17:56 The Black

Dan Corder 17:56 ... and it's usually code word for the K word or the N word.

Trevor Noah 17:59 Yeah.

Dan Corder 17:59 Like broadly.

Trevor Noah 18:00 But it is, though.

Dan Corder 18:00 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 18:01 But can I just say as a preference-

Eugene Khoza 18:02 Basically, basically die swart gevaar, the sequel.

Trevor Noah 18:04 Yes.

Dan Corder 18:04 Exactly.

Trevor Noah 18:04 But I will say in m- just as a preference thing to anyone who's listening, I would prefer if you called me the crime than the N word. If you meet me in the street and you say like, "Look at the, look at the crime walking across the street"

Eugene Khoza 18:15 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 18:15 ... I'll be less offended.

Eugene Khoza 18:16 Under your regime hip-hop will be so boring.

Trevor Noah 18:18 I'm just saying.

Eugene Khoza 18:19 [laughs]

Dan Corder 18:19 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 18:20 What up, my crime word?

Trevor Noah 18:21 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 18:21 Oh, I ... Nah, we can't afford that.

Trevor Noah 18:23 Already sounds better.

Eugene Khoza 18:24 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 18:24 Already sounds better.

Dan Corder 18:25 You know what, uh-

Eugene Khoza 18:26 And now it sounds like you're asking for trouble. Crime, please.

Trevor Noah 18:28 [laughs]

Dan Corder 18:30 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 18:31 These crimes. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 18:35 You know, growing up we always used to have this thing when people come to visit our house, we would wait for the moment when they leave and then we would all gossip about them-

Eugene Khoza 18:43 Yeah

Trevor Noah 18:43 ... as soon as they're gone. My mom would call, "Yo, we have our house back again."

Eugene Khoza 18:46 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 18:47 South Africans have never had their house back.

Eugene Khoza 18:48 Damn.

Trevor Noah 18:49 We've never, we've never sat as Black people and, and said, "Guys, neh, let's, let's gossip about them."

Eugene Khoza 18:54 Damn.

Dan Corder 18:55 Let's process that.

Trevor Noah 18:55 We, we had to, we had to make nice very quickly.

Eugene Khoza 18:57 Yo, bra, if I had thumbs I would snap. [laughs]

Dan Corder 18:59 What?

Trevor Noah 18:59 Yeah. We, we had to make nice very, very quickly. As soon as that ended you had to be nice to the school governing body for your child to enter that school. You had to be nice to show that you're not, like, that kind of a crime in an estate, in a housing community, in a... You know, you had to, we had to be nice. So the ones that could played nice to be in those communities. The ones that couldn't afford played nice to work in those communities. We never had time to gossip as a family. So when it happened with Jacob Zuma, when we all said, "Hey, but that guy" -

Eugene Khoza 19:26 Exactly

Trevor Noah 19:27 ... and then other people heard us and said, "That guy when?"

Eugene Khoza 19:30 Yes.

Trevor Noah 19:30 Then we said, "No, he's not our guy."

Eugene Khoza 19:31 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 19:31 "He's just a guy who's doing wrong."

Dan Corder 19:33 Right. I hear you.

Trevor Noah 19:33 And then the whole conversation got lost and muddied.

Eugene Khoza 19:35 Yes.

Trevor Noah 19:36 And let's not also forget if people were 15 when this conversation started in 2010, they were now 20-

Eugene Khoza 19:42 Yeah

Trevor Noah 19:42 ... joining the fray. And they had no idea about... Because when you try to remind kids about apartheid you're wasting their time. But if you say, now you know 15-year-olds struggle to tell the difference between Jacob Zuma and Nelson Mandela. Nelson Mandela is a guy on a, on a, on a note. Jacob Zuma is real.

Dan Corder 19:59 And then there are so many people who I talk to. One of the things that disturbs me the most in my work is how many people under the age of 25 don't know what, what the TRC was.

Trevor Noah 20:07 Yes.

Dan Corder 20:08 So, like, if I w- if I was king for a day, number one, every South African does history to metric.

Trevor Noah 20:14 Oh. [laughs]

Dan Corder 20:14 Number two, we overhaul the metric syllabus.

Trevor Noah 20:16 Yes.

Dan Corder 20:16 Because you need... There's too much Cold War in there. There's too much-

Trevor Noah 20:20 Mm.

Dan Corder 20:20 Why do we, who gives a fuck about-

Trevor Noah 20:20 There's Vietnam War now. My daughter's studying about the Vietnam War

Dan Corder 20:22 ... who gives a fuck about the Cuban Missile Crisis?

Trevor Noah 20:25 Mm.

Dan Corder 20:25 Who cares?

Trevor Noah 20:25 It almost happened. [laughs]

Dan Corder 20:27 But it didn't. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 20:29 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 20:30 Kennedy things almost happened. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 20:33 Hey, Dan, it almost happened.

Eugene Khoza 20:34 Of course.

Trevor Noah 20:35 This guy.

Eugene Khoza 20:36 Many things, many things almost happened.

Trevor Noah 20:37 Do you know how close they were, Dan?

Dan Corder 20:38 Sometimes we put G- put Guy Fawkes in the syllabus-

Trevor Noah 20:40 [laughs] Hey

Dan Corder 20:41 ... because it almost happened.

Trevor Noah 20:42 It almost happened, Dan.

Eugene Khoza 20:43 That's right.

Dan Corder 20:44 It almost happened.

Trevor Noah 20:45 Yes.

Dan Corder 20:45 But, like, my fundamental point is that even, like, I think a lot about how we only know the headlines of apartheid settler colonialism-

Trevor Noah 20:53 Yes

Dan Corder 20:53 ... a- a- and, and before.

Trevor Noah 20:54 Yes.

Dan Corder 20:54 But even now younger generations don't know that stuff.

Trevor Noah 20:58 Yeah.

Dan Corder 20:59 And in a country which is so systemically defined even today-

Trevor Noah 21:03 Mm

Dan Corder 21:03 ... by all of that, people who don't know that stuff have an inability to, uh, truly appreciate the dynamics that exist within our country. And the only way to help people to understand is to say, "Hey, we did this deal at the end of apartheid because we wanted to find out what was going on." The apartheid government was burning tens of thousands of pieces of paper, the records of their evils. Some people made a choice that we would offer amnesty in exchange for finding out what really happened and trying to get some kind of closure. Some people disagreed on that like, like Biko's family, for example.

Eugene Khoza 21:32 Right.

Dan Corder 21:32 Because right now a, an inquiry has been opened up into why the NPA didn't pursue court cases against some people from apartheid who did not get amnesty. They were supposed to be pursued.

Eugene Khoza 21:44 Yes.

Trevor Noah 21:44 Right. So let's just take a step back. So for those who don't know-

Dan Corder 21:46 Yes

Trevor Noah 21:47 ... l- let's just break this down for them.

Dan Corder 21:48 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 21:48 'Cause you're right, a lot of people don't know. A lot of people will be listening to this or watching this and going, "Wait, w- what happened?"

Dan Corder 21:54 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 21:55 Because I know a lot of the world thinks of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission as the gold standard in terms of a peaceful transfer of power.

Eugene Khoza 22:05 Yes.

Trevor Noah 22:05 It is considered the gold standard of the bloodless revolution.

Eugene Khoza 22:08 Yes.

Trevor Noah 22:08 Right? So nowhere in the world, and this is true, nowhere in the world has there been a revolution where a minority who oppressed a majority-

Eugene Khoza 22:17 Mm

Trevor Noah 22:18 ... gave up power but then didn't see mass bloodshed.

Eugene Khoza 22:22 Mm.

Trevor Noah 22:22 This is just... It's, it hasn't-

Eugene Khoza 22:23 No retribution.

Trevor Noah 22:25 Y- yeah.

Eugene Khoza 22:25 Yes.

Trevor Noah 22:26 Right?

Eugene Khoza 22:26 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 22:26 And everyone looks at the TRC as the gold standard. They go, "Wow, what an amazing experience." A country that experienced so much trauma and so much pain-

Eugene Khoza 22:34 Mm

Trevor Noah 22:35 ... came together and said, "We're gonna speak about this. We're gonna air it on television. The whole country's gonna be privy to it."

Eugene Khoza 22:42 Mm.

Trevor Noah 22:42 "And regardless of how heinous these crimes are, we're gonna speak about them." And the key aspect of it is those who come forward-

Dan Corder 22:49 To admit

Trevor Noah 22:50 ... to admit what they did-

Eugene Khoza 22:51 Mm

Trevor Noah 22:52 ... reveal it from the shadows-

Eugene Khoza 22:53 Mm

Trevor Noah 22:53 ... they will be given amnesty. And, and-

Eugene Khoza 22:55 That's if. That's if their evidence is proven to be true.

Trevor Noah 22:58 Yes.

Eugene Khoza 22:59 They point us to the graves.

Trevor Noah 23:00 Yes.

Dan Corder 23:00 And if it is sincere.

Eugene Khoza 23:01 Yes. Sincere.

Trevor Noah 23:02 Sincere and true.

Dan Corder 23:03 So if it is not false.

Trevor Noah 23:03 Yes.

Dan Corder 23:03 Because, because Tutu was very human about it.

Trevor Noah 23:05 Yes.

Dan Corder 23:05 He was like, "We wanna feel like this is genuine remorse."

Trevor Noah 23:07 Right.

Dan Corder 23:08 Because f- like, functionally we want remorseful people, but we also-

Trevor Noah 23:11 Mm-hmm

Dan Corder 23:11 ... for the victims you have to see remorse as a victim-

Trevor Noah 23:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Dan Corder 23:14 ... or you're not gonna feel closure or feel like this person is really sorry.

Trevor Noah 23:18 Right. And so that's how the story was-

Eugene Khoza 23:21 A lot of condition.

Trevor Noah 23:21 Yeah, but that's how the story sort of ended for the world.

Eugene Khoza 23:23 100%, yes.

Trevor Noah 23:23 It was, what a beautiful story. These people admitted mass killings and mass tortures and all of these things, and the people they did it to forgave them.

Eugene Khoza 23:33 Yes.

Trevor Noah 23:34 The ones who were left alive.

Eugene Khoza 23:35 And then when they left those TRC meetings, the Black people got into taxis again and drove to the township in their four-roomed houses-

Trevor Noah 23:40 No, but what I'm saying is-

Eugene Khoza 23:40 ... with a picture of their sons hanging on the wall

Trevor Noah 23:41 ... I'm saying but, you see, that story-

Eugene Khoza 23:42 Yes

Trevor Noah 23:43 ... that, that's where the story e-

Eugene Khoza 23:44 And they drove back to their suburbs and privilege.

Trevor Noah 23:46 Yes, but I'm saying that's-

Eugene Khoza 23:47 Yes

Trevor Noah 23:47 ... you're, you're adding to the story.

Eugene Khoza 23:48 Yes.

Trevor Noah 23:48 I'm saying the story ends-

Eugene Khoza 23:49 No, no, 100%, I'm agreeing with you

Trevor Noah 23:50 ... you know, like happily ever after.

Eugene Khoza 23:51 Yes.

Dan Corder 23:51 That's the end of the story.

Trevor Noah 23:52 That's where it ends on.

Eugene Khoza 23:53 Yes.

Trevor Noah 23:53 And then everyone cried, everyone hugged each other.

Dan Corder 23:55 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 23:56 And then everything was perfect.

Eugene Khoza 23:58 I always say, um, to make sure that the revolution doesn't continue you have to kill the young of the revolutionaries. The one thing that tho- that system did, it has still had remnants of those people running private schools now and these former schools that were called Model C schools. They had to make sure that these kids that were first wave to go inside these privileged schools and multi schools have the accent of the people that they were supposed to not like.

Dan Corder 24:20 And submit to the culture.

Eugene Khoza 24:21 It was very we- yeah. You, now you're playing cricket, you're wearing that little cap, you're playing rugby.

Dan Corder 24:25 Learning what Leon Schuster is.

Eugene Khoza 24:26 Yeah. Then you are at home. Yes.

Trevor Noah 24:27 Leon Schuster's amazing.

Eugene Khoza 24:28 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 24:28 Don't slander Leon Schuster on my podcast, guys.

Dan Corder 24:30 It's not slander.

Trevor Noah 24:31 And guys, don't e- don't let anyone-

Dan Corder 24:33 Even me, I had to go learn. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 24:34 Let anyone step into my world and slander Leon Schuster.

Dan Corder 24:37 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 24:38 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 24:38 I saw South Africans slandering that man a few years ago. I was like, "Yo, guys, if I was here, I would have fought for that man."

Dan Corder 24:43 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 24:43 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 24:43 "I would have fought for that man."

Dan Corder 24:44 No, but you are.

Trevor Noah 24:45 The way... Can I tell you something? The way Le-

Dan Corder 24:46 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 24:46 I know this is a tangent, but the way Leon Schuster exposed racism in South Africa-

Eugene Khoza 24:51 Oh, man

Dan Corder 24:52 Yeah

Trevor Noah 24:52 ... I, I think we-

Eugene Khoza 24:53 Yeah

Trevor Noah 24:53 ... owe Leon Schuster almost-

Eugene Khoza 24:54 Yes

Trevor Noah 24:54 ... as much as we owe the TRC.

Eugene Khoza 24:56 Yes.

Dan Corder 24:56 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 24:56 Because Leon Schuster- Leon Schuster showed us how much was still buried in South African-

Eugene Khoza 25:03 Yes

Trevor Noah 25:03 ... culture. That man could have edited out every K word, every racist, every... That man went as an Indian-

Eugene Khoza 25:10 He could have angered people without being a person of color.

Trevor Noah 25:12 Yes

Eugene Khoza 25:13 But he chose that.

Trevor Noah 25:13 He went-

Eugene Khoza 25:13 He knew

Trevor Noah 25:14 ... as an Indian, and then people are like, "Ah, it's blackface." What? No.

Eugene Khoza 25:16 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 25:16 It wasn't black. He was in disguise. There's a difference.

Eugene Khoza 25:18 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 25:18 Blackface is mocking a person for their race.

Eugene Khoza 25:20 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 25:20 This man went in disguise. He went as an Indian person to a white person's world. He went as a Black person-

Eugene Khoza 25:25 Mm

Trevor Noah 25:25 ... to a white person's world. He went as a white person. He did everything.

Eugene Khoza 25:27 Mm.

Trevor Noah 25:28 But what he showed me, even as a child, I won't lie, TRC was one thing.

Eugene Khoza 25:31 Mm.

Trevor Noah 25:32 Leon Schuster, for me-

Eugene Khoza 25:33 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 25:34 ... was one of the most informative experiences I had about South Africa-

Eugene Khoza 25:36 It was deeply educational

Trevor Noah 25:37 ... because I was like, oh, this is what's happening when no one knows anyone's watching.

Eugene Khoza 25:40 When no one's looking.

Trevor Noah 25:41 This is how they speak to their workers.

Eugene Khoza 25:43 Petrol attendants.

Trevor Noah 25:44 This is how they speak to somebody when they think something's gone wrong. That, yo, that was ... Sorry, but I interrupted, but that to me-

Eugene Khoza 25:49 No

Trevor Noah 25:50 ... that was like-

Eugene Khoza 25:50 Can I add to Leon Schuster before we continue? It, besides, like, I understand, like, the, the optics of it right now feels weird, but as non-white people growing up at that time, the first time we ever saw a non-white person getting one over a white person-

Trevor Noah 26:07 Yes

Eugene Khoza 26:08 ... was in a Leon Schuster film.

Trevor Noah 26:09 Yeah.

Dan Corder 26:09 Sure. Sure.

Eugene Khoza 26:10 The first time we ever saw a non-white person winning a situation, whatever the situation is-

Trevor Noah 26:15 Yeah

Eugene Khoza 26:15 ... was in a Leon Schuster film. And yes, later in life, Mama Bones is blackface. But the pranks, the pranks are-

Trevor Noah 26:22 No, the pranks are flawless

Eugene Khoza 26:23 ... the pranks are flawless in my opinion.

Dan Corder 26:25 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 26:25 The pranks are flawless.

Dan Corder 26:26 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 26:26 Absolutely flawless.

Eugene Khoza 26:27 Yeah. So the, the, the integration and the mix happened quite quickly, and you come from that generation, you and I, where if you went to a m- multiracial school or a mixed school or a former Model C school and your parents have a different accent than yours, but your parents when they're moving around the world or around South Africa, their world-

Trevor Noah 26:42 Yeah

Eugene Khoza 26:42 ... they could speak to more Black people than you could.

Trevor Noah 26:44 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 26:45 So that became, that generation grew up, and then that generation sang in unison to the choir of Black people are corrupt, this ANC government is messing up any, everything, blahdy, blah, blah. And I'm like, you know, there's many things about this government that you can say, but one thing it is, it integrated and made lots of people rich who are not Black. There's a lot of things that the South African government can do. And I always say drive around in the road on the highways in your suburb and see a car that is a plumber, a person that's an electrician, and see if there's a Black name in that van, in that truck. There was a system that people understood very well when apartheid ended, that there'll be a lot of shortcomings-

Trevor Noah 27:22 Yeah

Eugene Khoza 27:22 ... when it comes to service delivery. In fact, the government itself will struggle to maintain their own infrastructure, so we will maintain their infrastructure and create businesses that make money. I swear now the, the blackouts that Eskom caused had caused to have many more white millionaires in business than there are Black millionaires.

Trevor Noah 27:43 From the solar business.

Eugene Khoza 27:44 From the solar-

Trevor Noah 27:44 From the, yeah, yeah.

Eugene Khoza 27:45 I don't know any, like-

Trevor Noah 27:45 From the, from the power generation business.

Eugene Khoza 27:47 I don't know any-

Trevor Noah 27:49 Yes

Eugene Khoza 27:49 ... any, any Black solar installer that I can call. But the same people who are like, "This, this thing is rubbish," they were the ones, "250,000 rand. We'll climb on your roof. We'll make this thing happen for you." Then I'm like, yeah, but it's the same everywhere. It's, it's the ... Even the police are being helped by private security that's owned by white people. Do you understand what I'm saying? And I've had this conversation so many times and I'm like, this country's so weird that we come from, we can watch documentaries and see how Black people were policed by white people in the-

Trevor Noah 28:15 Yeah

Eugene Khoza 28:16 ... 70s and the 80s. And I'm saying, what's so different now when you move around four ways? What's-

Trevor Noah 28:21 Well, it's been, it's been privatized now.

Eugene Khoza 28:22 Yeah, but what's different?

Trevor Noah 28:23 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 28:24 Yeah. So armed response. I'm not talking about the guard at your security gate-

Trevor Noah 28:27 Yeah, yeah

Eugene Khoza 28:27 ... because those are not allowed to carry firearms in the first place, so you're not as safe as you think you are. The response is armed, meaning the person that comes-

Trevor Noah 28:34 So let me ask you this then. Let me ask you this.

Eugene Khoza 28:36 Yes.

Trevor Noah 28:36 Do you, do you think... 'Cause this, it's, it's interesting to see these perspectives, right? Because when I listen to the conversations that are being had-

Eugene Khoza 28:46 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 28:46 ... and I see what people are discussing, I notice two very different positions that people have to take, and it, it's really interesting. It, it sort of goes back to what you, what you said at the beginning of the conversation.

Eugene Khoza 28:59 Mm.

Trevor Noah 28:59 I noticed that when you went on Piers Morgan, Black South Africans have to start every conversation with, "White people, you're not in danger."

Eugene Khoza 29:09 Mm.

Trevor Noah 29:09 "We swear we have nothing against you."

Eugene Khoza 29:11 Mm.

Trevor Noah 29:11 "We love you. We love you very much."

Eugene Khoza 29:13 Mm.

Trevor Noah 29:13 "We love you so much."

Eugene Khoza 29:15 Mm.

Trevor Noah 29:15 "We love you. We want you here. We love you. We love you."

Eugene Khoza 29:18 Mm.

Trevor Noah 29:18 "Please join us. You know we love you." Cyril Ramaphosa, South Africa's president-

Eugene Khoza 29:22 Yeah

Trevor Noah 29:22 ... had to go to the White House, sit with Trump and go, "Um, I, we, we love white people here."

Dan Corder 29:27 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 29:27 "We love them. Everyone is welcome in our country. Every... We love them. We love them." And Trump's there. He's like, "You hate the whites. You hate..." And he's like, "No, we love even you. We love you."

Eugene Khoza 29:37 Mm.

Trevor Noah 29:37 "We love-"

Eugene Khoza 29:38 If we had a plane, we'd give you.

Trevor Noah 29:39 You'd... Yeah, he even said-

Eugene Khoza 29:40 Mm

Trevor Noah 29:40 ... "If we had... I wish we had a plane to give you."

Eugene Khoza 29:42 Mm.

Trevor Noah 29:42 "I wish we..." Imagine, imagine that level that you're coming from.

Dan Corder 29:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 29:45 Right? And these are people who, for the most part, I mean, you know the statistics. You, you know, like, a lot of the numbers.

Eugene Khoza 29:52 Mm.

Trevor Noah 29:52 But if you look at, for the most part, those are the people who have less than nothing, and it was designed that way.

Eugene Khoza 30:01 Mm.

Trevor Noah 30:01 Right? But their role is still to coddle white South Africans-

Eugene Khoza 30:06 Yeah

Trevor Noah 30:06 ... and say, "Hey, uh, look, you're safe and you're, you're gonna be..." You know?

Eugene Khoza 30:09 Mm.

Trevor Noah 30:09 But it's interesting how, and again, we've got to be very careful of this-

Eugene Khoza 30:14 Mm

Trevor Noah 30:14 ... because there are many cool whites in South A- I mean, here's one of them. You're sitting here with us until you do something crazy again.

Eugene Khoza 30:18 You forgot his brother.

Dan Corder 30:18 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 30:19 And your brother, and your brother, wherever he is.

Eugene Khoza 30:21 Who has a funny podcast called Skodeng.

Trevor Noah 30:23 [laughs]

Dan Corder 30:24 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 30:26 What a legend.

Trevor Noah 30:26 No, but like-

Eugene Khoza 30:27 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 30:27 But I, and I, you know, and this is, this is... The reason I, the reason I harp on this, not, not to be, like, politically correct or anything.

Eugene Khoza 30:33 Got you.

Trevor Noah 30:33 I think it's, I think it's because I never want to be in a position where people allow us to divide and conquer ourselves.

Eugene Khoza 30:38 Of course.

Trevor Noah 30:38 Do you know what I mean?

Eugene Khoza 30:39 Mm.

Trevor Noah 30:40 There are tons of white South Africans, tons, who are proudly South African, who stay in the country, who contribute, who integrate-

Eugene Khoza 30:47 Mm

Trevor Noah 30:47 ... who y- you speak Zulu, dance. You know what I mean? Like-

Eugene Khoza 30:51 Mm

Trevor Noah 30:51 ... things that... And, and people might be like, "Ah, dancing." I'm like, "No, no, no, guys." There was a cultural stigma that came with many of these things. That is now being adopted by a different generation, which is beautiful.

Eugene Khoza 31:02 Mm.

Trevor Noah 31:02 Do you, do you know what I mean?

Eugene Khoza 31:03 100%.

Trevor Noah 31:04 But there's still a world where white people go, the crime that happens to them seems to be more significant than the crime that was always happening. Like, people will go-

Eugene Khoza 31:13 Yeah

Trevor Noah 31:13 ... you know, crime wasn't this bad during apartheid. Then I go, "Guys, but the whole, the whole country was a crime."

Eugene Khoza 31:18 Yeah.

Dan Corder 31:18 Yeah, and-

Eugene Khoza 31:19 It's a crime scene

Dan Corder 31:19 ... and crime wasn't bad in your area, uh, during apartheid-

Eugene Khoza 31:22 Yeah, it is

Dan Corder 31:23 ... is, is what you actually mean. Because one of, for me-

Eugene Khoza 31:25 Mm

Dan Corder 31:25 ... one of the wildest things about apartheid is they didn't do a census of Black South Africans. So we only found out even how many people there were in South Africa, including people of color-

Eugene Khoza 31:34 Mm

Dan Corder 31:34 ... in 1995, '6.

Trevor Noah 31:34 No, you're lying.

Dan Corder 31:36 In 1995, '6 was the first census of all-

Trevor Noah 31:38 No, you're lying

Dan Corder 31:39 ... people.

Eugene Khoza 31:40 For real?

Dan Corder 31:40 And I have reread that census so many times, 'cause it's the first time you find out how many South Africans had no schools, no hospitals, no sewage, no-

Trevor Noah 31:48 No, guys

Dan Corder 31:48 ... because white South Africa had no interest in finding that out. One, because they weren't gonna service it. But two, because they didn't wanna let anybody else find out how bad it was.

Trevor Noah 31:56 Mm.

Dan Corder 31:56 So this is another thing, like the TRC. As important as the TRC to finding what, what had happened in South Africa, was that census in '96 found out what South Africa was then for the first time, and we didn't know that before then. And so, but a lot of people don't even know what it was going on in that census. So what I do on the show quite often is I just go, "Okay, white South Africa, let's just talk for a second. Guess how many white South Africans had no electricity in 1996? Guess how many Black South Africans?" And the stats are unreal-

Trevor Noah 32:23 What, what are the stats?

Dan Corder 32:24 ... in the disparity. I'm gonna try to remember some off the top of my head, but it was something like ... Okay, the one I can remember is there were, like, 6 million Black, uh, people, or Black ... Yeah, 6 million Black people living in informal dwellings in 1996, and there was less than-

Trevor Noah 32:38 That's ... Just, just to be clear, when people say informal-

Dan Corder 32:41 Shacks

Trevor Noah 32:42 ... yeah.

Dan Corder 32:42 Backyards.

Trevor Noah 32:43 We're not talking about, like a-

Dan Corder 32:44 Whatever

Trevor Noah 32:44 ... yeah, we're talking about it is a non-house.

Dan Corder 32:45 Totally.

Trevor Noah 32:46 Yeah.

Dan Corder 32:46 And how many white South Africans? I think there was, like, less than 50,000. Like, and, and people don't know that, and that's when I say again, like, you need to understand, oh, 30 years is so long. No, it's fucking not.

Trevor Noah 32:57 Yeah, it's nothing.

Dan Corder 32:58 Not when that is what you're trying to recover from. And I know that some people think that I bat for the ANC, which I obviously don't, if you look at all my material.

Eugene Khoza 33:05 But your shirt says otherwise. [laughs]

Dan Corder 33:08 This is, uh, the Springboks and, uh, nothing else. [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 33:13 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 33:13 Comrade Dan.

Eugene Khoza 33:15 Uh, Comrade Dan.

Trevor Noah 33:15 Or Brother Dan as we call him. [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 33:18 We, we, we have revealed you.

Trevor Noah 33:19 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 33:20 Comrade Dan, now's the time.

Trevor Noah 33:21 [laughs]

Dan Corder 33:22 [laughs] Revolutionary greetings. But no. [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 33:26 We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. [upbeat music] [laughs]

Dan Corder 33:37 Something that's so important to understand-

Trevor Noah 33:39 Yes

Dan Corder 33:39 ... about even looking t- at today's stats of how many people-

Trevor Noah 33:42 Mm

Dan Corder 33:42 ... live here, there, whatever-

Trevor Noah 33:43 Yeah

Dan Corder 33:43 ... is that if you know how bad it was in South Africa in 1996, to then see how much good Mandela's ANC did. The RDP rollout of houses was one of the most record-breakingly large-

Trevor Noah 33:54 That's it

Dan Corder 33:54 ... housing programs in human history.

Trevor Noah 33:56 In the world. Mm.

Dan Corder 33:57 And if you, if you look now, they stopped doing it, and then during Mbeki's reign everything started to go wrong, and then since Zuma, and even in Ramaphosa, they're doing virtually nothing and the state is decrepit and awful, and they've done terrible things that we can't forgive them for. But consider where they got from '96 to about 2006. Unbelievable building of a country. From dire inequality to giving so many South Africans things that they could have never imagined-

Trevor Noah 34:20 Yeah

Dan Corder 34:20 ... happening. And we need to know that. We all need to understand what was in that census in 1996 to get that in this rainbow nation cute thing, while the TRC was happening, that's the country that apartheid and settler colonialism left us.

Trevor Noah 34:33 Well, you, you know, you know what it goes to, and I think this, this is a conversation that a lot of people struggle with.

Dan Corder 34:38 Mm.

Trevor Noah 34:38 People don't understand that there is a distinct difference between the apology-

Dan Corder 34:44 Mm

Trevor Noah 34:44 ... and then in some way, shape, or form, the retribution-

Dan Corder 34:48 Mm

Trevor Noah 34:49 ... or someone amending, or you know what I mean?

Dan Corder 34:51 The restitution, right?

Trevor Noah 34:52 Where's the restitution?

Dan Corder 34:52 Exactly.

Eugene Khoza 34:53 Can I step in here quickly? There's a, there's a quote, and I don't know who to attribute it to, but it's basically is-

Trevor Noah 34:57 You can just say, they say

Eugene Khoza 34:58 ... is, um, I'm, I'm not sure of their gender. So yeah, they is better.

Trevor Noah 35:02 [laughs]

Dan Corder 35:03 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 35:04 They, they, they said that South Africa is what happened when forgiveness was given before guilt was admitted.

Trevor Noah 35:13 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 35:14 That's why we find ourself here.

Trevor Noah 35:16 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 35:16 Forgiveness was given before guilt was admitted, and that, like, statement alone speaks to every single thing you guys have been speaking about now.

Trevor Noah 35:25 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 35:26 No one says sorry.

Trevor Noah 35:27 Yeah, it's a, it's, it's a ... But it's not even just, like, pe- Like, even if you say everyone said sorry.

Eugene Khoza 35:33 Mm.

Trevor Noah 35:34 You know, I think of, I think of some of the lessons that, you know, they'll teach you, you know, couples therapists, for instance, relationship therapists. One of the things they ... If you read the books, they'll always talk about something very specific, and they go, in a relationship, if you're with somebody, and they wrong you, right? So they talk about, like, infidelity, and I think, like, Esther Perel has it in some of her books and stuff. They go, a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that the infidelity ends when the person admits to it and seeks forgiveness.

Eugene Khoza 36:01 Mm.

Trevor Noah 36:02 But that's actually the beginning of the journey. Because now what has to happen is-

Eugene Khoza 36:06 Mm

Trevor Noah 36:06 ... the person who has wronged their partner-

Eugene Khoza 36:08 Mm

Trevor Noah 36:09 ... has to spend all their time, and I know this sounds crazy-

Eugene Khoza 36:12 Okay

Trevor Noah 36:12 ... spend all their time showing their partner that they haven't forgotten their transac- the, the transgression.

Eugene Khoza 36:17 The transgression.

Dan Corder 36:17 It's the rebuild.

Trevor Noah 36:18 You literally ... And, and-

Dan Corder 36:20 Mm

Trevor Noah 36:20 ... people who hear this will be like, "Wait, what?" But think about how many times, whether it's on TV or in real life, you've heard people who've had some sort of infidelity in a relationship go, you know, like, their partner brings it up, and it's like, "Ah, this again."

Dan Corder 36:31 Mm.

Trevor Noah 36:32 "I already said sorry." It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know why the person brought it up again?

Dan Corder 36:35 Mm.

Trevor Noah 36:35 Because you don't anymore. And if-

Dan Corder 36:38 Mm

Trevor Noah 36:38 ... the person feels like you don't-

Eugene Khoza 36:41 'Cause you-

Trevor Noah 36:41 Yeah. If the person feels like-

Eugene Khoza 36:42 You forgot

Trevor Noah 36:43 ... you have gotten over it-

Eugene Khoza 36:44 Yes

Trevor Noah 36:44 ... before they have-

Dan Corder 36:45 Yeah

Trevor Noah 36:45 ... they're gonna bring it up.

Dan Corder 36:46 Your example's actually really good, because something that I think about is that white South Africans have never earned Black South Africans' trust.

Trevor Noah 36:54 No.

Dan Corder 36:54 That, that is another part of the post-TRC conversation. An apology is not enough. You've gotta then-

Trevor Noah 36:59 Guys, white people-

Dan Corder 36:59 You gotta show-

Trevor Noah 36:59 White people in South Africa couldn't say Mbeki

Dan Corder 37:02 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 37:03 That shit-

Dan Corder 37:03 She-

Trevor Noah 37:03 Guys, guys, that shit used to blow my mind

Eugene Khoza 37:05 Mm-hmm.

Dan Corder 37:05 You have to work harder than that.

Trevor Noah 37:07 The, the president of the country-

Eugene Khoza 37:08 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 37:08 ... his name was Thabo Mbeki.

Dan Corder 37:11 No clicks.

Trevor Noah 37:12 No nothing.

Dan Corder 37:13 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 37:13 Not even a challenging thing.

Trevor Noah 37:14 Nothing. Do you know what I mean?

Dan Corder 37:15 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 37:15 Not No- Nomathamsanqa. No.

Dan Corder 37:16 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 37:17 Mbeki. People without fail would go, "Yeah, President Ma-becki."

Dan Corder 37:22 Mm.

Trevor Noah 37:22 Then you'd go like, "Mbeki." "Ma-becki." Then you're like, "Mbeki." They'd be like, "Oh, I can't say it."

Dan Corder 37:27 Of course you can.

Trevor Noah 37:28 Then I go, but let some tennis player come along who's at Wimbledon-

Dan Corder 37:31 From Eastern Europe [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 37:31 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 37:32 ... and they'll have a name that, yo, all consonants, no vowels. I've never seen these people struggle. You know where you're like, "So you can say that name, but Mbeki you c- why can't you say..." Can you say M? Can you say be?

Dan Corder 37:46 Mm.

Eugene Khoza 37:47 Mm.

Trevor Noah 37:47 But it, it felt like, it always felt like to me it was, it wasn't so much that they couldn't say it.

Dan Corder 37:52 Wouldn't bother.

Trevor Noah 37:53 It felt like it was like, no, it's not even wouldn't bother. It felt like they-

Eugene Khoza 37:56 It was a silent revolut- it was a silent protest

Trevor Noah 37:58 ... it, it, yeah, it felt like they were-

Dan Corder 37:59 Yeah. Okay

Trevor Noah 37:59 ... it felt like they were giving something up.

Eugene Khoza 38:01 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 38:01 I'm gonna make your sounds.

Eugene Khoza 38:02 Yeah.

Dan Corder 38:02 Oh.

Trevor Noah 38:02 And that's why genuinely, like when I look at my brother's generation, my brother's 20 years younger than me, my youngest brother, right?

Eugene Khoza 38:08 Mm.

Trevor Noah 38:08 Yo, the kids that he goes to school with, they don't bat an eyelid at any of this. Mbeki, nothing to them.

Eugene Khoza 38:13 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 38:13 Genuinely nothing.

Eugene Khoza 38:14 Mm.

Trevor Noah 38:14 Genuinely, genuinely nothing. When I look at like young white kids growing up now, I can't speak for all of them-

Eugene Khoza 38:18 Mm

Trevor Noah 38:18 ... but I know from my generation already-

Eugene Khoza 38:20 Mm

Trevor Noah 38:20 ... like when we went to school-

Eugene Khoza 38:22 Mm, mm

Trevor Noah 38:22 ... versus the kids now-

Eugene Khoza 38:23 Mm

Trevor Noah 38:23 ... yo, bro, these kids, so many of them don't see it as a, like a, a- an inferior thing-

Eugene Khoza 38:31 Mm

Trevor Noah 38:31 ... because they've seen rich black-

Eugene Khoza 38:32 It's not a protest

Trevor Noah 38:32 ... they've seen poor Black-

Eugene Khoza 38:33 Mm.

Dan Corder 38:33 Mm

Trevor Noah 38:33 ... they've seen corrupt Black, they've seen desp- you know what I mean? Like-

Dan Corder 38:36 They've also had, um, famous Black people in their lives-

Trevor Noah 38:40 I never thought of that

Dan Corder 38:41 ... which is a really, really big deal.

Trevor Noah 38:42 Mm.

Dan Corder 38:42 It's like really, really important to understand-

Trevor Noah 38:44 Right

Dan Corder 38:44 ... the extent to which celebrity agenda sets what we should bother to learn, do, and care about.

Trevor Noah 38:49 Damn.

Dan Corder 38:49 And like, like, like the fact that, like the fact that young white South Africans know Mapimpi, and they know, um, and Oxenché-

Trevor Noah 38:57 I never thought of that

Dan Corder 38:58 ... and they can talk about all of those things. Rabada right now at the cricket-

Trevor Noah 39:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Dan Corder 39:01 ... I don't know when this comes out. Also, Americans, you don't know what I'm talking about with this anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Trevor Noah 39:05 No, but Ty- Tyler's a good one.

Dan Corder 39:06 Tyler's another good one.

Trevor Noah 39:07 Do you know what I mean? Just, just that alone, you're right, actually.

Dan Corder 39:09 People make the effort for their heroes and, uh, white South Africans have Black heroes now, at least some, and that is, it makes a huge, huge, huge difference to your understanding of what is worth putting your effort into-

Trevor Noah 39:21 Mm

Dan Corder 39:21 ... actually learning to care about and do.

Eugene Khoza 39:23 Yeah, but I think South Africa became, um, a poster child for diplomacy. We almost had to, as a country, put our best foot forward, and the ones who could speak the better English had to be sent out there in the world to go and apologize on behalf of the transgressors. And two systems were adopted to make sure that that happens. So our government swapped retribution for restitution.

Trevor Noah 39:43 Hm.

Eugene Khoza 39:43 BE is not an ANC manufactured program. It's an apartheid system program. It existed before for white people to benefit from government contracts. Tenders were not invented by the ANC. They were invented by the apartheid government.

Trevor Noah 39:59 Well, I mean, they-

Eugene Khoza 40:00 So-

Trevor Noah 40:00 ... they, for every government, if we're fair.

Eugene Khoza 40:01 Yeah, but I'm, no, I'm saying, I'm saying, yeah.

Trevor Noah 40:02 Every government in the world has a tender system to-

Eugene Khoza 40:04 Yeah, but I'm, yeah.

Dan Corder 40:05 No, but you're talking about-

Trevor Noah 40:06 But what you're saying is in South Africa, a lot of people think tenders were invented by the ANC.

Eugene Khoza 40:09 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 40:09 Yeah, yeah. Because-

Eugene Khoza 40:10 Yeah

Trevor Noah 40:10 ... because-

Dan Corder 40:10 The word tenderpreneur did not exist during apartheid.

Eugene Khoza 40:12 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 40:12 Yeah, but tenders-

Dan Corder 40:13 Tenderpreneurs existed.

Trevor Noah 40:14 Yes.

Dan Corder 40:14 But like, what is colonialism and apartheid if not white economic empowerment?

Eugene Khoza 40:17 Exactly.

Dan Corder 40:18 That's exactly what it is, and that's actually what I feel like more South Africans-

Eugene Khoza 40:21 Mm

Dan Corder 40:21 ... should start doing, is using the same language to show the comparison. And what I, I often-

Trevor Noah 40:26 But can I, can I tell you, can I tell you what it is? Sorry.

Dan Corder 40:28 Go for it.

Trevor Noah 40:28 I'll tell you this before you go forward.

Dan Corder 40:29 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 40:29 I'll tell you this. This is where I think a lot of these things actually start falling down.

Eugene Khoza 40:34 Mm.

Trevor Noah 40:35 And I, I think it's, it's interesting because there are parallels in the United States.

Dan Corder 40:38 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 40:39 For the most part, it boils down to marketing and it boils down to implementation, right? I think it was Lil Wayne who said, uh, "Real G's move in silence like lasagna."

Eugene Khoza 40:53 Lasagna.

Dan Corder 40:53 Like lasagna.

Trevor Noah 40:54 Yeah. [laughs] Great line.

Eugene Khoza 40:55 Or lyanyaza in the Eastern Cape. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 40:59 [laughs] You, you know what, what, what's so profound about that when you think about it is during apartheid-

Eugene Khoza 41:07 Mm.

Dan Corder 41:07 Mm

Trevor Noah 41:07 ... right? During any of these systems in, in America even, they weren't as explicit as people think-

Eugene Khoza 41:14 Mm

Trevor Noah 41:15 ... about saying, "We are helping you because you are white."

Eugene Khoza 41:19 Mm.

Dan Corder 41:19 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 41:20 They denied people because they were Black-

Eugene Khoza 41:22 Mm

Trevor Noah 41:22 ... but they didn't say to white people, "We are helping you because you are white."

Eugene Khoza 41:26 Mm.

Trevor Noah 41:26 So what they said was, "Hey, guys, there's a system called welfare."

Dan Corder 41:29 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 41:30 If you cannot afford to buy food and you cannot afford to have a house, the government will help you. Uh, there's a system called, what, what a system? There's, there's, there's Medicare, there's Medicaid, there's healthcare.

Dan Corder 41:39 Pension plans and all the rest.

Trevor Noah 41:40 There's pension. What is pension? No, when you're old, the government will look after you because you need to be looked after. Everyone deserves to be looked after.

Eugene Khoza 41:47 Mm.

Trevor Noah 41:47 But then what they would do is they would just exclude-

Dan Corder 41:50 Yeah

Trevor Noah 41:50 ... Black people from everyone.

Dan Corder 41:52 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 41:52 So now people grew up in a world thinking everyone gets looked after because they deserve to be.

Dan Corder 41:58 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 41:58 You are a single mother, you are a widow, a widower, you're an orphan.

Eugene Khoza 42:02 You're injured, you're disabled.

Trevor Noah 42:03 You are, if you're injured, you're disabled, it doesn't matter. Everyone deserves to be looked after.

Eugene Khoza 42:07 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 42:08 And then they exclude it from the everyone. Then what happens? Then what happens? Laws start to change, right? So in America, what happened? They said, "Okay, no, now Black people can go to the school. Now Black people can go swim in a swimming pool." Immediately from that moment, you see it in American history, you see it in South African. I grew up with public pools, right? That's, when I was growing up, it was batshit crazy to have a swimming pool in your house, guys.

Eugene Khoza 42:32 Yeah.

Dan Corder 42:32 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 42:32 I don't think you understand. Even now when I look at people, I go like, "Guys." You know when you fly, you know, when you flew, you're landing-

Eugene Khoza 42:37 In a land, yeah

Trevor Noah 42:38 ... in any city in the world-

Eugene Khoza 42:39 Mm

Trevor Noah 42:39 ... and you look down. People don't understand how crazy it is-

Eugene Khoza 42:42 Mm

Trevor Noah 42:43 ... to have a body of water-

Dan Corder 42:44 Yeah

Trevor Noah 42:45 ... in the backyard of your house that is for your sole consumption. Just you and your family-

Dan Corder 42:50 Yeah

Trevor Noah 42:50 ... have 50,000 liters of water-

Eugene Khoza 42:52 At your disposal

Trevor Noah 42:53 ... for your occasional use.

Eugene Khoza 42:54 Yes. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 42:55 Guys, when I was growing up, there was one pool in the neighborhood, and it was m- run by the government, and everyone went there, and we swam together-

Eugene Khoza 43:04 Mm

Trevor Noah 43:04 ... and then we all went home because you don't swim every day, and that's life. You know what I mean? But it was interesting to see when they said Black people are gonna come to the pool.

Dan Corder 43:14 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 43:14 People then said-

Dan Corder 43:15 We'll get our own pools.

Trevor Noah 43:16 We're getting our own pools.

Dan Corder 43:17 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 43:17 And then what happened? The pools all shut down. I don't-

Dan Corder 43:19 Poor business.

Trevor Noah 43:19 I don't even think there's a, there's a ... Yeah, you're right.

Dan Corder 43:21 Mm.

Trevor Noah 43:21 I don't even think there's a public pool anywhere, anywhere that I know of.

Dan Corder 43:24 So, uh, just on-

Trevor Noah 43:26 Mm

Dan Corder 43:26 ... on what you were talking about just now, uh, is one of the most extraordinary acts of welfare to pull people out of poverty was in the 1950s when the apartheid government dedicated nearly all of its tax revenue to pulling poor, white Afrikaners out of poverty. And that was s- massive, massive-

Trevor Noah 43:45 Mm

Dan Corder 43:45 ... welfare grants, unemployment grants, jo- job seekers grants, illness and childhood and old age grants. And when I talk about white economic empowerment, and I've covered it in this way specifically, a lot of people try to, like, muddy the waters and gray what happened-

Trevor Noah 43:59 Yeah

Dan Corder 43:59 ... during apartheid.

Trevor Noah 44:00 Yeah.

Dan Corder 44:00 And so what I do is I go, "Okay, let's go and look at the apartheid government's official record of the policies that they did," 'cause you can't fight with me on that. It's on the record. It's in our government policies. That is what they did systematically from 1948 all the way through until about the mid 1960s. And if they were providing food parcels or if they were doing construction or whatever, they were only giving the tenders to white Afrikaner-owned companies.

Trevor Noah 44:19 Mm-hmm. Mm.

Dan Corder 44:20 And so if you look at some of the biggest companies in South Africa today-

Trevor Noah 44:22 Mm-hmm

Dan Corder 44:23 ... those are companies that the apartheid government made, made to gain Afrikaner wealth. But it goes further back than that, even pre-apartheid.

Trevor Noah 44:31 Mm.

Dan Corder 44:31 In the 1920s, uh, more and more big companies were hiring skilled Black South African workers, particularly on the mines and to do construction in and around Johannesburg. White Afrikaner in particular, uh, unskilled workers protested and went on strike. And in response to keep their vote, the apartheid government created ... Sorry, the pre-apartheid government, the union government, made public works infrastructure programs.

Trevor Noah 44:56 Mm.

Dan Corder 44:56 Like, they built things.

Trevor Noah 44:57 Dedicated.

Dan Corder 44:58 Like, like the dam.

Trevor Noah 44:59 Mm.

Dan Corder 44:59 Hartbeespoort.

Trevor Noah 45:00 Hartbeespoort Dam.

Dan Corder 45:00 Hartbeespoort Dam.

Trevor Noah 45:01 That's it. Yeah.

Dan Corder 45:01 And they only hired white people.

Trevor Noah 45:02 Yep.

Dan Corder 45:03 They made public works infrastructure public, uh, projects to create jobs only for white people.

Trevor Noah 45:07 And interesting fact.

Dan Corder 45:08 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 45:08 That land-

Dan Corder 45:09 We-

Trevor Noah 45:09 That land was donated.

Dan Corder 45:11 Yes

Trevor Noah 45:11 ... was owned by a single person who said, "You guys can have it."

Dan Corder 45:15 So when you're talking about America, what I find fascinating in American politics as you well know, is that very, very often if the left says a branded thing-

Trevor Noah 45:22 Mm

Dan Corder 45:22 ... uh, the right will twist it on the same branding-

Trevor Noah 45:25 Yeah

Dan Corder 45:25 ... to make it seem similar.

Trevor Noah 45:26 Yeah.

Dan Corder 45:26 So Black Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter.

Trevor Noah 45:27 Yeah.

Dan Corder 45:28 Stop the steal, stop the whatever.

Trevor Noah 45:29 Yeah.

Dan Corder 45:30 Right?

Trevor Noah 45:30 Mm.

Dan Corder 45:30 In South Africa, if we started saying white economic empowerment is our history, people would go, "Oh."

Trevor Noah 45:36 Mm-hmm.

Dan Corder 45:37 It's just like BEE, except BEE doesn't go nearly as far in the disempowerment of one group of people-

Trevor Noah 45:42 Mm

Dan Corder 45:42 ... or the benefiting of another. If we all just started saying WEE over and over again, people would understand what apartheid's actual economic project was.

Trevor Noah 45:51 Mm.

Dan Corder 45:51 'Cause in the history books, you, you do need to learn about the crimes, you d- do need to learn about the, like, aberrations of justice and the violations of people's human rights.

Trevor Noah 45:59 Mm.

Dan Corder 45:59 But you also need to deal with the economic superpower-

Trevor Noah 46:02 Mm

Dan Corder 46:03 ... of creating white wealth.

Trevor Noah 46:04 Mm.

Dan Corder 46:05 And if we as a country started to think about apartheid like that-

Trevor Noah 46:07 Mm

Dan Corder 46:08 ... we would better understand that redress laws and policies like BEE now both work-

Trevor Noah 46:13 Mm

Dan Corder 46:13 ... need to happen, and are helping the still disempowered.

Trevor Noah 46:16 It's funny you say that. I was having a conversation with a, a gentleman in London who had left South Africa. South African guy, and he was talking to me about, like, his journey. And he goes, he's like, "Oh, Trevor, you know, I left South Africa. Um, my family, we had to leave and, and you know, and it's just terrible." And I was like, "Yeah, you know, crime is really bad, and corruption we can't get under control. We gotta, we gotta work on these things." He's like, "Yeah, yeah. You know, it's just really bad and, you know, and, and I just feel like, look, I ... You know, I" And, and you know, when someone starts couching comments.

Dan Corder 46:42 Mm.

Trevor Noah 46:42 "Because look, and here's the thing, I'm not like, I just ... Let's be honest, Trevor. Uh, like, BEE, like, to have Black economic empowerment, like, what are you saying? And you know, and, and come on, man. Why don't we just say we start from scratch, everyone's equal. We just start from scratch." And, and he said it in a really earnest way. He said, "Trevor, isn't it making it worse when a government says that Black people or, or people who are Indian or the, like, they should get help just because of what happened?"

Dan Corder 47:10 Mm.

Trevor Noah 47:10 "But my, my kids weren't around for that. So my kid goes to school with a kid who's Black. They started at the same time."

Dan Corder 47:17 Yes.

Trevor Noah 47:17 "So they have the same footing."

Dan Corder 47:19 Mm.

Trevor Noah 47:19 And I was like, "Okay. This is, this is an interesting way to think of it. Now let me ask you a question. Would you be willing to give your entire bank account and your housing away-

Dan Corder 47:33 Mm

Trevor Noah 47:33 ... to a Black family? So now I'm gonna ask you as a white South African to give a Black family your house-

Dan Corder 47:40 Everything, yes. Mm

Trevor Noah 47:41 ... and your car and your money in the bank, give it all to them." And he went, "N- no, I would, I would never do that." Then I said, "Okay, but why would you not do that?"

Dan Corder 47:49 Mm.

Trevor Noah 47:49 "It's not because I've, I've, I've worked for this." I said, "Okay, but now if I did take it all from you, if I took it all from you, talking from the first investment all the way, if I took it all from you, what would your problem be?" He's like, "No, you've, you've taken everything I've worked." I said, "Yes, but your son is starting from scratch."

Dan Corder 48:07 Mm.

Trevor Noah 48:07 "So your son will make the money for you."

Dan Corder 48:08 Mm. Should be fine.

Trevor Noah 48:10 Then he's like, "No, but I mean, do you know how long it took me to work for this? And I can't just give it to you and, and I have to, my son, I have to pay for him to go to school." Then I said, "Okay. So now why is it that you are able to understand the power of the compound interest and the compound wealth that you have acquired over generations-

Dan Corder 48:26 Mm

Trevor Noah 48:27 ... and yet you're unable to acknowledge it for every Black person who was never allowed to acquire any wealth-

Dan Corder 48:35 Mm

Trevor Noah 48:35 ... from their generations?" Most of us, imagine living in a world where most of us are the first generation of our families-

Dan Corder 48:43 Mm

Trevor Noah 48:43 ... that ever tipped the needle above one. Most Black families in South Africa lived from zero, and all you did was you didn't get to one.

Dan Corder 48:53 You have it.

Trevor Noah 48:53 You just did this to get to the next month, and then it was zero, and then it went below zero. And then you just tried to get above, and then back below zero. And then you tried to get be- Most of us are the first generation of, like, excess, I would call it.

Dan Corder 49:05 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 49:05 But with ... And we're a, we're a, a, like, a mega minority in that way.

Dan Corder 49:08 You can even be one better.

Trevor Noah 49:10 You always wanna one better me.

Dan Corder 49:11 So the- [laughs]

Trevor Noah 49:12 What kind of friendship is this, guys?

Dan Corder 49:14 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 49:15 For the After the first elections in '94, that was the first generation of Black people to say and do what they like That's wild, dude Yeah Just think about that for a second You can say and do what you like Yeah And people take that for granted. And I'm always thinking to myself- I wonder who was the first Black person who just like wiggled Was like, yay Just- Like, okay Just like the first- [laughs] 'Cause no. Just, okay. Think about this for a sec. We take this for granted now. We all take this for granted. Mm There was a time in South Africa, not a t- ... 'Cause a time makes it sound like- Hey ... it was like black and white pictures Like it was ... Yeah, yeah. No. [laughs] I know. And then all of a sudden there was color, everything was good. No. [laughs] This is, this is when there's color pictures.

Dan Corder 49:49 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 49:49 Mm. There's color footage, color pictures. Black people couldn't walk- Mm-hmm ... in the street- Mm ... randomly. Mm. If you shook the wrong way- Mm ... you were taken away. Mm. Do you know what I mean? Mm. But now I wanna know, 'cause obviously there's very meaningful things. I'm sure some, some people were like- Is this your sincere face? Some people were like, "I'm going to school." Is this your- This is- Is this how you purport sincerity? This is, this is-

Dan Corder 50:11 Trevor, I've just met you for the first time.

Trevor Noah 50:12 I'm ... This is very sincere. Look.

Dan Corder 50:13 But I can see how hard you are fighting-

Trevor Noah 50:15 No, no. This is very-

Dan Corder 50:16 ... inside of you right now

Trevor Noah 50:17 ... No. [laughs]

Dan Corder 50:17 His cheeks are battling-

Trevor Noah 50:18 This is, this is very s-

Dan Corder 50:19 ... his brain

Trevor Noah 50:20 ... This is very sincere. Look.

Dan Corder 50:21 I've just met you and I can see how hard you're working.

Trevor Noah 50:22 Look. Look.

Dan Corder 50:23 Look at this man.

Trevor Noah 50:23 And some people were like- Okay. Let's keep our charts ... "I'd like to play poker with them."

Dan Corder 50:25 I like to play poker with this man

Trevor Noah 50:26 Some people- Hey, don't you dare. [laughs]

Dan Corder 50:28 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 50:29 He's made many a Russian men cry.

Dan Corder 50:30 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 50:30 [laughs] And those are people like- [laughs] ... I'm gonna go to school, I'm gonna start a business, I'm gonna... But I wonder, there must have been some Black people who were just like ... ch- Because w- I know we, we think of it in a, in a meaningful way all the time. Mm. But do you know how, how wonderful it is to be able to act the fool in life- Mm ... with no repercussions? Mm. And I mean this in like a- No, 100% ... in a, in a sincere- You do that for a living Yeah, but y- there was no comedy during apartheid That's what I'm saying. Yeah. We should know. There was none. Yes. We act a fool. What, what, what is it? They had the same rule of like the Bible. Three or m- if three or more are gathered- Yeah ... then- Roman island Literally.

Dan Corder 51:03 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 51:04 But it was, though. They said if like ... How many pe- How many Black people was it? If it- Yeah. Three or more ... once you passed a certain amount of Black people- Yeah

Dan Corder 51:09 Yes

Trevor Noah 51:09 ... they said it was a political gathering inherently.

Dan Corder 51:11 Yes. For sure.

Trevor Noah 51:12 Yes.

Dan Corder 51:12 Yes. For sure.

Trevor Noah 51:12 You guys would be safe because it's one and a half Black people, one and half white people.

Dan Corder 51:15 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 51:15 [laughs] With this guy, with this, with this shirt. With this shirt. With undercover brader. With undercover. [laughs]

Dan Corder 51:22 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 51:23 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 51:23 My man. [laughs] Actually, actually, this is a good question to ask you. Yeah. This is a good question to ask you. Why do you think white people get almost double angry-

Dan Corder 51:32 Uh-huh

Trevor Noah 51:32 ... with white people-

Dan Corder 51:34 Oh, of course

Trevor Noah 51:35 ... who speak out? Because I've seen-

Dan Corder 51:37 My comments

Trevor Noah 51:37 ... I've, I've seen like Black people, but they'll just go, "Yeah, you, you," whatever. You know, they run the gamut from you're delusional to you're a monkey.

Dan Corder 51:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 51:45 But it's the usual. Ugh, whatever.

Dan Corder 51:47 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 51:48 Dan, when you speak, hey, my man, let me tell you something. You make ... And I won't say white people. In fact, I'll separate groups.

Dan Corder 51:53 Mm.

Trevor Noah 51:53 You as a white person when you speak, you make racists very angry. No, uncomfortable. Uncomfortable is an understatement, bro. Yeah, yeah. Sure. Angry. This guy gets- Yeah ... death threats. Where I'm reading his comments like, "Yo." [laughs] Unfollowed. You know where I'm like, "Hey, Dan. Yeah, no, here, my man." [laughs]

Dan Corder 52:09 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 52:09 "Yeah, no. Okay." Properly.

Dan Corder 52:12 Yeah. Uh, so I believe that the most threatening thing to a white supremacist is not a person of color. It's a white person who disagrees with them.

Trevor Noah 52:22 Mm.

Dan Corder 52:23 Because white people listen to white people instinctively more than they listen to people of other races.

Trevor Noah 52:29 Instinctively.

Dan Corder 52:30 And I think that that is true of all different kinds of intersections. Men listen to men-

Trevor Noah 52:34 Yeah

Dan Corder 52:35 ... easily in a way they don't listen to women. Straight people listen to other straight people in a way instantly that they don't listen to, uh, queer people.

Trevor Noah 52:41 So you think it's a power thing?

Dan Corder 52:43 I think that if somebody has an agenda of trying to create a world in which, uh, Black people are less or Black people are like this, for white people to all agree with them with, the most threatening thing to them is a white person who goes, "You're wrong." Because that white person could make other white people think, "Oh, maybe he is wrong. Maybe Black people aren't actually like this. Maybe it's not like that."

Trevor Noah 53:03 Yeah.

Dan Corder 53:04 When I talk it's a direct threat to their project of convincing white people that Black people are like this-

Trevor Noah 53:09 Mm

Dan Corder 53:09 ... and a threat and whatever. And so I mean, yeah, lots of death threats, lots of sometimes hilarious, uh, comments to be fair. Because most bigots online are not funny or intelligent.

Trevor Noah 53:20 [laughs]

Dan Corder 53:20 They just say dumb shit. But I was once called Son of the Soy, and that's objectively hilarious.

Trevor Noah 53:27 As in like soybeans? Yeah, no.

Dan Corder 53:28 Yeah, 'cause-

Trevor Noah 53:28 Oh, okay

Dan Corder 53:29 ... son of the soil.

Trevor Noah 53:30 Son of the soil.

Dan Corder 53:31 Son of the soy.

Trevor Noah 53:31 Ah.

Dan Corder 53:31 And I was like-

Trevor Noah 53:31 Soy milk Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay

Dan Corder 53:32 ... you thought about that. That's good.

Trevor Noah 53:33 I like that. Actually.

Dan Corder 53:34 Like you worked a little bit on that.

Trevor Noah 53:35 I like that.

Dan Corder 53:35 That was nice.

Trevor Noah 53:35 That's poetic.

Dan Corder 53:36 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 53:36 That's, that's poetic.

Dan Corder 53:37 You-

Trevor Noah 53:37 I, I like poetic racism

Dan Corder 53:39 ... you are my favorite hater.

Trevor Noah 53:40 Like poetic hatred, poetic racism, poi- that's, that's good.

Dan Corder 53:42 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 53:43 I like that.

Dan Corder 53:43 And, but, but I think also that, um, for, for white people who disagree with me, I think w- some of them aren't doing a project of trying to convince everybody that Black people are worse. Some of them just have deep-seated unacknowledged racism within themselves that goes like this.

Trevor Noah 53:58 Mm.

Dan Corder 53:58 When I'm called a race traitor, me, when I'm called a race traitor, what it shows about the person accusing me of being a race traitor is that they conceive of races as teams.

Trevor Noah 54:07 Mm.

Dan Corder 54:07 My team is the white team.

Trevor Noah 54:09 Mm.

Dan Corder 54:09 Dan, you're white. You're on my team. And-

Trevor Noah 54:11 Automatically

Dan Corder 54:11 ... and teams compete-

Trevor Noah 54:13 Mm

Dan Corder 54:13 ... in sport.

Trevor Noah 54:14 Yeah.

Dan Corder 54:14 So you need, as a white person, Dan, on the white team, we need to be working together to look after our team.

Trevor Noah 54:21 Mm.

Dan Corder 54:21 If you say anything that criticizes white people or heaven forget the d- uh, forgive the Democratic fucking Alliance, then you are a race traitor, which means that you are harming the white project, the white team's attempt to win, and you are strengthening another team's attempt to win. That is a fundamentally subliminally racist conception of how race should be most important in the way that you build power and protect community. That you should sacrifice truth-

Trevor Noah 54:50 Mm. Mm

Dan Corder 54:50 ... in order to protect-

Trevor Noah 54:51 For the sake of the team

Dan Corder 54:52 ... the white team.

Trevor Noah 54:52 Mm.

Dan Corder 54:52 Exactly.

Trevor Noah 54:53 Mm.

Dan Corder 54:53 And so I think that for some white South Africans who don't like what I'm saying You'll see in my comments, it's almost never a counterfactual or a counterargument.

Trevor Noah 55:02 No.

Dan Corder 55:02 It's always a personal attack.

Trevor Noah 55:04 Yeah, to your people.

Dan Corder 55:04 And it's-

Trevor Noah 55:05 They'll say-

Dan Corder 55:05 And it's like-

Trevor Noah 55:05 "How can you do this to your people?"

Dan Corder 55:06 Yeah, yeah. "You're gay. You're a Black lover," whatever that means. Like, like, like all of these different-

Trevor Noah 55:11 It, it means you love Blacks.

Dan Corder 55:13 Yeah. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 55:14 Love them.

Eugene Khoza 55:15 No, but you know what I mean, right?

Dan Corder 55:15 You just drive past and you can just see them on the side of the road and you're like, "Mm, mm, mm."

Eugene Khoza 55:19 Yeah. Mm, mm, mm.

Dan Corder 55:21 And the other thing that they love to say is like, "Yeah, of course you love Joburg."

Eugene Khoza 55:24 I, I can.

Dan Corder 55:24 Which obviously means-

Trevor Noah 55:26 Yeah, it's like a wink

Dan Corder 55:26 ... you like Black women, Dan.

Trevor Noah 55:28 Oh.

Dan Corder 55:28 Or no, Black, Black men specifically because people love accusing any-

Trevor Noah 55:32 What?

Dan Corder 55:32 ... man they dislike of being gay, as though it's somehow a problem. Uh-

Eugene Khoza 55:36 You hear that, Trevor?

Dan Corder 55:37 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 55:37 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 55:39 [laughs]

Dan Corder 55:40 And then-

Eugene Khoza 55:40 I don't even know what ... Now I don't know what-

Trevor Noah 55:42 Me, no

Eugene Khoza 55:43 ... what are we talking about?

Trevor Noah 55:44 I just-

Eugene Khoza 55:44 You hit me with that and then I'm like, I'm still trying to figure out what that means.

Trevor Noah 55:47 [laughs]

Dan Corder 55:47 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 55:49 You know-

Dan Corder 55:49 But, sorry, just-

Eugene Khoza 55:50 No, no. Go ahead

Dan Corder 55:50 ... just to finish. The same conversation we're talking about is the Cape Town versus Joburg conversation.

Trevor Noah 55:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dan Corder 55:54 So you said Cape Town very, very white, right?

Trevor Noah 55:56 Yeah.

Dan Corder 55:56 Predominantly Cape Town international is very white.

Trevor Noah 55:58 Yes.

Dan Corder 55:58 Cape Town South Africa is not. They're completely different worlds.

Trevor Noah 56:01 Yeah.

Dan Corder 56:01 I have, quite often, I think very reasonably critiqued the housing crisis, the Airbnb crisis, some of the DA's decisions ruling Cape Town even in as though they've also done a lot of really good stuff and built an in part world-class city. If I criticize Cape Town, it's the same.

Trevor Noah 56:16 Oh.

Dan Corder 56:16 It's, it's, it, it's racialized.

Trevor Noah 56:18 Yes.

Dan Corder 56:18 They say, "You're a race traitor."

Trevor Noah 56:20 Yes.

Dan Corder 56:20 They're saying Cape Town, but they mean white. Just like you were saying earlier-

Trevor Noah 56:24 Yeah

Dan Corder 56:25 ... crime means Black.

Trevor Noah 56:26 Yes.

Dan Corder 56:26 Joburg means Black, Cape Town means white. You are criticizing us, our team.

Trevor Noah 56:31 Yes. Why are you doing that?

Dan Corder 56:32 Our home base-

Trevor Noah 56:33 Yes

Dan Corder 56:33 ... in this game of tag.

Eugene Khoza 56:34 But I guess the revolution has always wanted to adopt one single white person here and there to just kind of-

Trevor Noah 56:39 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 56:39 ... to just kind of get through to the ... You, you, and you, you might think it's funny, but you're actually right. Joe Slovo was that for the ANC.

Trevor Noah 56:45 Yeah, Joe Slovo. Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 56:45 Um, Father Trelokuhle was that for-

Dan Corder 56:48 Albie Sachs

Eugene Khoza 56:48 ... for, for Desmond Tutu. So there was always one where they're like, "You need to roll with this guy." And when we started doing comedy, to get the gigs that you want to get-

Trevor Noah 56:55 Yeah

Eugene Khoza 56:55 ... you must have a white agent.

Trevor Noah 56:56 You had to have a white person.

Eugene Khoza 56:57 There has to be someone who says-

Trevor Noah 56:58 Right

Eugene Khoza 56:58 ... "He will show up."

Trevor Noah 56:59 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 56:59 "He will come." Demand a certain type-

Trevor Noah 57:00 No, you had to vouch, vouch for you.

Eugene Khoza 57:02 Yeah, vouch. Vouch hard. And-

Trevor Noah 57:03 People like, people like Joe Parker.

Eugene Khoza 57:04 Yes.

Dan Corder 57:04 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 57:05 W- this is a white comedian who was-

Eugene Khoza 57:07 Yes

Trevor Noah 57:07 ... having to promise-

Dan Corder 57:09 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 57:09 ... white companies that a Black performer was worth having.

Dan Corder 57:13 Yep.

Trevor Noah 57:14 Not even, like, trust. He would have to vouch and go, "I promise you, this person is worth having-

Dan Corder 57:20 Mm. Right

Trevor Noah 57:21 ... at your event."

Eugene Khoza 57:22 Yes.

Dan Corder 57:22 Right.

Trevor Noah 57:22 "Please trust me on this."

Eugene Khoza 57:23 And remember the handholding that we used to suffer before?

Trevor Noah 57:25 Yo.

Eugene Khoza 57:26 The person would show up with you-

Trevor Noah 57:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Eugene Khoza 57:27 ... to make the introductions.

Trevor Noah 57:28 Yeah.

Dan Corder 57:28 Chaperone.

Eugene Khoza 57:28 Shake hands.

Trevor Noah 57:29 He'd just stand there-

Eugene Khoza 57:29 Not chaperone

Trevor Noah 57:30 ... no, just stand there on the side.

Eugene Khoza 57:31 Make them comfortable.

Trevor Noah 57:32 Like, literally. So we would go and perform-

Dan Corder 57:33 No, sorry, I mean, like ... I, I mean, like act like a chaperone.

Trevor Noah 57:36 Oh, yeah, yeah. Fullish chaperone.

Eugene Khoza 57:37 Acting.

Dan Corder 57:37 Because, because, because they-

Eugene Khoza 57:38 Acting being the operative word

Dan Corder 57:38 ... because, because they believe that you are irresponsible and can't handle-

Eugene Khoza 57:42 Oh, yeah

Dan Corder 57:42 ... yourself professionally.

Trevor Noah 57:43 But not Joe.

Eugene Khoza 57:43 Joe-

Trevor Noah 57:44 Do you even own, do you, do you even own a jacket?

Eugene Khoza 57:45 [laughs]

Dan Corder 57:46 Uh, yeah.

Trevor Noah 57:47 Yes.

Eugene Khoza 57:47 You know when someone come meets you in the car in the parking lot.

Trevor Noah 57:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eugene Khoza 57:49 Where's your-

Trevor Noah 57:50 Yeah.

Dan Corder 57:50 Can you do a tie?

Eugene Khoza 57:51 Like that.

Dan Corder 57:52 You know what I'm saying?

Eugene Khoza 57:52 Yeah, yeah.

Dan Corder 57:52 Can you tie a tie?

Eugene Khoza 57:53 100%.

Dan Corder 57:53 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 57:53 100%.

Dan Corder 57:54 Yeah, yeah.

Eugene Khoza 57:55 100%. So there's, there's always that. There's always those stats that a person in 2025 can still quote fresh in their mind. We don't even need to go as far as apartheid is, but I always think people get lost in the stats. There's very simple stats in this country. White people are the minority. White people as a minority, they're the most educated as a number of people than Black people. They have gainful employment more than Black people. They outgun us. They outwealth us. They outlive us.

Dan Corder 58:23 People forget the outlive, which is really important.

Eugene Khoza 58:25 Yes.

Dan Corder 58:26 In terms of medical healthcare-

Eugene Khoza 58:27 Yeah

Dan Corder 58:27 ... in terms of nutrition-

Eugene Khoza 58:28 Yeah

Dan Corder 58:28 ... in terms of a lack of ... Because early childhood malnutrition is what stunts so many-

Eugene Khoza 58:34 Yes

Dan Corder 58:34 ... young Black children.

Eugene Khoza 58:35 Yes.

Dan Corder 58:35 It's the first five to six years-

Eugene Khoza 58:37 Yes

Dan Corder 58:37 ... where you do not have enough food, and you ... And all of the early childhood nutrition research in the world talks about-

Eugene Khoza 58:45 Yeah

Dan Corder 58:45 ... how people are physically stunted, they're mentally stunted, they're race-

Trevor Noah 58:47 Mentally is the big one if you don't have enough.

Dan Corder 58:49 Totally.

Trevor Noah 58:49 Yeah.

Dan Corder 58:49 But I mean, the other thing that we were talking about around the Piers Morgan thing is-

Eugene Khoza 58:52 Mm-hmm

Dan Corder 58:53 ... the safest people in South Africa are white men.

Eugene Khoza 58:56 Yes.

Dan Corder 58:56 Because of all the infrastructure-

Eugene Khoza 58:58 Mm

Dan Corder 58:58 ... which m- creates secure neighborhoods, high walls, electric fences, good ha- uh, safe working environments, good cars.

Eugene Khoza 59:05 Firearms.

Dan Corder 59:06 Yeah. Well, sometimes firearms.

Eugene Khoza 59:07 Not ... Most times.

Dan Corder 59:08 Sometimes. Sometimes firearms. Uh, but then, a- and then, and then the most vulnerable are Black women because, again-

Trevor Noah 59:14 Yeah

Dan Corder 59:14 ... the least protected in the most destitute conditions very, very often.

Eugene Khoza 59:17 Most exposed-

Dan Corder 59:18 Totally

Eugene Khoza 59:18 ... and most vulnerable at the same time.

Trevor Noah 59:20 Yes.

Dan Corder 59:20 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 59:20 So-

Eugene Khoza 59:20 And, and in all communities as well.

Trevor Noah 59:23 Yes.

Eugene Khoza 59:23 Yeah.

Dan Corder 59:23 Yes.

Eugene Khoza 59:23 So I, I always say to people, "If you want to know what equality looks like, drive around any township, any Black neighborhood, or anywhere where there's Black men gathered as a group, whether they're traveling together or going to watch soccer, and tell me what size pants they wear, just as a s- as an average between all of them in townships and in squatter camps." Very small.

Dan Corder 59:42 Mm.

Eugene Khoza 59:42 Very thin. That's malnutrition.

Dan Corder 59:44 Huh.

Eugene Khoza 59:45 You can't put them next to their counterpart who is of another race, especially white, and from muscle mass to the size of their pants. Not being overweight.

Dan Corder 59:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eugene Khoza 59:53 The size of their pants.

Dan Corder 59:54 Yeah, I know what you mean.

Eugene Khoza 59:54 Yeah. That's, that's, that's what tells you what the systematic system has been able to do and still survives and thrives under these conditions because of what they eat, what they know, how much they walk versus how much they exercise.

Trevor Noah 1:00:07 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 1:00:08 Because if, if hard work was a real thing, most Black women that spend most of their youth in transit from 4:00 in the morning up until 6:00 in the evening would be wealthy.

Trevor Noah 1:00:17 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 1:00:17 So I don't buy it any, any- when everyone tells me, "You know, to work hard," I'm like, "I know plenty of people doing well that don't work hard at all."

Trevor Noah 1:00:25 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 1:00:25 And I know enough people. Just be on the highway-

Trevor Noah 1:00:27 Th-

Eugene Khoza 1:00:27 ... and see what's, who's in a bus, in a minibus. And even, even middle class Black women now are working harder.

Trevor Noah 1:00:33 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 1:00:33 And they're still working and complaining about being underpaid and having more responsibilities-

Trevor Noah 1:00:37 Yeah

Eugene Khoza 1:00:37 ... and still finding themselves in these situations. When I go to self-defense classes and I, and I'm in a group, and I'm usually one-

Trevor Noah 1:00:43 Are you teaching or you-

Eugene Khoza 1:00:44 No, when I'm attending.

Trevor Noah 1:00:46 Oh, okay.

Dan Corder 1:00:46 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:00:46 And I'm, and I'm one of or two of 20, and I see how to identify a threat, and I'm like, "Hold on, you talking about me here?" I don't see a threat the same way-

Trevor Noah 1:00:58 Yeah

Eugene Khoza 1:00:58 ... that my other counterparts who are-

Trevor Noah 1:01:00 Yeah

Eugene Khoza 1:01:00 ... in this training course see a threat.

Dan Corder 1:01:02 Mm.

Eugene Khoza 1:01:02 When I'm driving, I'm not as paranoid. I don't look around at a Black guy crossing a car.

Trevor Noah 1:01:05 But you know why.

Eugene Khoza 1:01:06 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:01:07 You know why? Yes. It comes back to the flattening of people. Mm-hmm. Tell us more. The flattening- Do you know what the flattening of people is, Dan? It's, it's as simple as this-

Dan Corder 1:01:15 I-

Trevor Noah 1:01:15 The flattening of people

Dan Corder 1:01:16 ... I listen, I listen to this podcast. I know.

Trevor Noah 1:01:17 [laughs] I know. Why you spoiling me?

Dan Corder 1:01:19 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:01:21 I'll, I'll, I'll tell you, I'll tell you what. So I remember years ago I read a paper that was breaking down what was commonly referred to as, like, a, a racist stereotype. You know, where people go, "All Asians look the same." Mm-hmm. Right? And so someone went out and actually did a study, and they found that to people who have never grown up with any Asian people around them, all Asians do look the same. True.

Dan Corder 1:01:44 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:01:44 Because you are unable to differentiate- Distinguish ... the features, and you're unable, yeah, you're unable to distinguish them. Yes.

Dan Corder 1:01:50 So it's an exposure problem.

Trevor Noah 1:01:51 It's completely an exposure thing.

Dan Corder 1:01:52 Okay.

Trevor Noah 1:01:52 And then they tracked it between people, and they found it's not that one race of people is inherently unable or able- Hmm ... to identify another group. It's all just about exposure. Hmm.

Dan Corder 1:02:02 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:02:03 So you come back to South Africa. Black people were forcibly exposed in a section to white people.

Dan Corder 1:02:11 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:02:11 Right? Because they had to work for them, they had to work in the mines, they had to work in the houses, they had to work... You know what I mean. Hmm. But that's still a slither of them. Yeah. Many Black people lived a life completely isolated from white people. Hmm. And so many Black people, funny enough, can't tell the difference. Like, half of my family- Hmm ... cannot tell the difference between any of my white friends. Like, if I brought you, Dan, now to my house, I promise you some of them would go-

Dan Corder 1:02:32 I'd go, "This is Lawrence"

Trevor Noah 1:02:32 ... "Oh, nice to see you again."

Dan Corder 1:02:33 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:02:34 I swear to God. Yes. I swear to God. Yeah. They'd go, "Oh, nice to see you again." Then I'd be like, "No, this is not him."

Dan Corder 1:02:38 I mean, I am a redhead, so it's slightly more like-

Trevor Noah 1:02:41 Ah, my friend

Dan Corder 1:02:42 [laughs] Like a little bit-

Trevor Noah 1:02:42 My friend

Dan Corder 1:02:43 Okay.

Trevor Noah 1:02:43 They'll just think on that day in particular there was something.

Dan Corder 1:02:45 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:02:46 "Nathi, she saw something. Yes. Nathi, did he burn?" You did something to your hair. "There's something. Hey."

Dan Corder 1:02:52 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:02:52 Or, "It's your jacket."

Dan Corder 1:02:53 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:02:54 [laughs] No, but, but-

Dan Corder 1:02:55 Yes

Trevor Noah 1:02:55 ... and I, and I used to be shocked.

Dan Corder 1:02:56 That's exposure.

Trevor Noah 1:02:56 I'd be like, I'd be so shocked by how, like, half my family. Then I, when I sat with it and I went, oh, wow, these are all the people in my family who were never exposed to white people.

Dan Corder 1:03:04 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:03:04 Hmm. Right? And the flip happens. Now you look at it through the lens of crime, right? You live in a country where from your birth you were kept away from Black people. Hmm. You were not shown Black people except to say, like, this is the gafa, the danger- Hmm ... the threat. Hmm. Right? You were never introduced to Black people. You were never ... There was no meaningful interaction with Black people. Hmm. The country then becomes integrated. Now South Africa is a rainbow nation. We're all together. But we're not. Hmm. We all know.

Dan Corder 1:03:33 Correct.

Trevor Noah 1:03:34 So there was white flight. White people immediately fled to little enclaves where they're like, "Can we be safe here?" And now there were fewer Black people that they were interacting with. Hmm.

Dan Corder 1:03:43 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:03:43 But now what happens? Where are the only Black people they interact with? A beggar at the street corner- A waiter ... and somebody who's robbing them. A teller. Somebody who's serving them.

Dan Corder 1:03:54 Cleaning the house.

Trevor Noah 1:03:54 Somebody who's ... Hmm. But these are not human interactions where you actually study another person's features and you look at their- You have to care. It's a not, it's not- Yeah ... it's a, it's not a space where you see the human on the other side.

Dan Corder 1:04:04 There's no encounter, right?

Trevor Noah 1:04:05 Exactly. Mm-hmm. It's just a, like a fleeting- Hmm ... encounter.

Dan Corder 1:04:08 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:04:08 And so the one thing I think of w- and I know it's, like, a w- a weird way to phrase it, but where I feel sorry or understanding for white people is I go, if your only interaction with Black people is when they rob you, you will then think that crime is Black. Hmm. Because you, even apart from your actions, have been part of a system that didn't let you hang out with ... You know what I mean?

Dan Corder 1:04:32 Sure.

Trevor Noah 1:04:32 'Cause it's not like white people were allowed ... You know what I mean? To be fair, white people weren't allowed to hang out with Black people. Hmm. And I always go, like, one of the worst things that happened- It was also a crime Yeah ... that association was a crime. One of the, one of the strangest things about racism that we forget is-

Dan Corder 1:04:45 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:04:45 ... and I think I will attribute this quote, Ryan-

Dan Corder 1:04:48 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:04:48 ... was Nelson Mandela who said he learned in his time in Robben Island that one of the hardest aspects of racism, and this is not the quote, but basically he was saying is-

Dan Corder 1:04:58 So it wasn't him

Trevor Noah 1:04:59 ... you had to ... No, no, I'll tell you when it starts.

Dan Corder 1:05:00 Oh.

Trevor Noah 1:05:01 [laughs] I'll tell you when, I'll tell you when the quote starts. He, 'cause I'm giving you the context first.

Dan Corder 1:05:06 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:05:06 He spends a lot of, he spends a lot of time at Robben Island.

Dan Corder 1:05:08 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:05:09 A lot of ... Like, pretty much all his time. And, um, he made friends with most of his prison guards.

Dan Corder 1:05:16 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:05:17 And it got to the point where at Robben Island they knew, the, the, the administration knew you could not let Nelson Mandela or any of his cohorts associate with a prison guard for longer than, like, a few months.

Dan Corder 1:05:29 Okay.

Trevor Noah 1:05:29 No. Because the prison guards started to see them as human beings- Yeah ... and they started to treat them differently.

Dan Corder 1:05:33 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:05:33 Yes. Because Mandela would greet them. He'd ask them about their families. He would talk about- Greet them, happy birthday ... himself as a human being. Yeah. He'd wish them happy birthday. But it wasn't just him.

Dan Corder 1:05:42 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:05:42 People make it seem like Mandela was this saint guy. No, he was-

Dan Corder 1:05:45 His cohorts

Trevor Noah 1:05:46 ... he was a human. Hmm.

Dan Corder 1:05:47 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:05:47 That's all he was. He was just being a human.

Dan Corder 1:05:49 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:05:49 And the other, other people who were imprisoned with him would do the same thing.

Dan Corder 1:05:53 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:05:54 To the point where the prison guards went, "Uh-" What did he say this guy did again? Yeah, like, he doesn't seem like the-

Dan Corder 1:06:01 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:06:01 ... the animal that you said he is.

Dan Corder 1:06:03 Because bigotry requires dehumanization.

Trevor Noah 1:06:05 And separation is the big one.

Dan Corder 1:06:07 So no exposure-

Trevor Noah 1:06:08 No exposure

Dan Corder 1:06:09 ... which allows for dehumanization-

Trevor Noah 1:06:10 No exposure

Dan Corder 1:06:11 ... because it becomes-

Trevor Noah 1:06:11 And so they did that, and that's when Mandela said in that process he learned that in a system of oppression you have to free not only the prisoner, but also the guard.

Dan Corder 1:06:20 Correct.

Trevor Noah 1:06:20 Hmm. And that's the thing I think we never, like, we really never get into in South Africa, and I see it in the US as well, is that white people are also suffering from a system that was created by their ancestors-

Dan Corder 1:06:36 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:06:36 Hmm

Dan Corder 1:06:36 In a different way. Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:06:37 ... because now I'm like, yo, white people are terrified in a way that they don't have to be. Hmm. I know this is gonna sound crazy. You're not being hijacked because you are white. You're being hijacked because you have the car that the people want. Hmm. Now, you must ask yourself why you have that car. Hmm. I'm not saying blame yourself. Hmm. But I'm just saying the chances of you being robbed or hijacked are directly proportional to how much things you have. Hmm. You having the things is directly proportional to how much you benefited from the system before you. But again, I'm not saying it's your fault.

Dan Corder 1:07:05 The effect of the system is-

Trevor Noah 1:07:07 Exactly

Dan Corder 1:07:07 ... that you experience it as-

Trevor Noah 1:07:08 Yes

Dan Corder 1:07:08 ... a race attack.

Trevor Noah 1:07:09 Yes.

Dan Corder 1:07:09 You experience it as because of your skin color.

Trevor Noah 1:07:12 Because you, you're like, "Well, how else is this happening?"

Dan Corder 1:07:14 Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:07:14 It's not happening to anyone else-

Dan Corder 1:07:15 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:07:15 ... is how you're seeing it. And then the people you hang out with-

Dan Corder 1:07:17 Hmm

Trevor Noah 1:07:17 ... they're also white.

Dan Corder 1:07:18 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:07:18 They also got robbed. They also got someone kidnapped. They also ... So you go, this happens to us. More... You get what I'm saying?

Eugene Khoza 1:07:24 Yeah, yeah. No, 100%. I think that's why even at that young age I was not impressed by Tsotsi winning an Oscar. I was like, "This is-

Trevor Noah 1:07:31 The movie?

Eugene Khoza 1:07:32 Yeah, the movie.

Trevor Noah 1:07:32 Yeah.

Dan Corder 1:07:33 It plays into the fantasy.

Eugene Khoza 1:07:33 It plays into the fantasy and the stereotype.

Dan Corder 1:07:35 The fear fantasy.

Eugene Khoza 1:07:35 And, hey, they're angry and jumping walls and taking things-

Trevor Noah 1:07:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Eugene Khoza 1:07:38 ... because they are on the other side of a place that we-

Trevor Noah 1:07:40 And the miracle is that this animal brought the baby back.

Eugene Khoza 1:07:43 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:07:43 Like, we never thought.

Eugene Khoza 1:07:44 Yes. And we were all-

Dan Corder 1:07:45 Yeah, yeah

Trevor Noah 1:07:45 ... the miracle.

Eugene Khoza 1:07:46 They do that?

Trevor Noah 1:07:46 Oh, wow.

Eugene Khoza 1:07:47 You see, so even at that young-

Dan Corder 1:07:48 We didn't know a Black person could do that

Eugene Khoza 1:07:49 ... I mean [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:07:51 [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:07:51 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:07:51 Yes, I felt that one.

Trevor Noah 1:07:52 [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:07:53 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:07:55 I was like, "They don't see me driving."

Trevor Noah 1:07:55 Dan, Dan cosplaying as a racist. [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:07:58 "They don't see me driving."

Trevor Noah 1:07:59 [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:08:00 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:08:01 I don't know, they do.

Eugene Khoza 1:08:03 Ha. Is it the same space?

Trevor Noah 1:08:06 Oh, man.

Dan Corder 1:08:06 It's very safe. It's very safe.

Eugene Khoza 1:08:07 I bring my kids here all the time.

Trevor Noah 1:08:09 [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:08:09 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:08:09 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:08:10 But yeah, you're right.

Eugene Khoza 1:08:11 Yes. So there wa- the, the, there were those situations where there were more movies about that and series, and the incentivization to create stereotypes is very huge in this country in television. And I'm glad at my house we don't watch mainstream television.

Trevor Noah 1:08:25 Everywhere.

Eugene Khoza 1:08:25 But I'm saying in this country.

Trevor Noah 1:08:26 Everywhere.

Eugene Khoza 1:08:27 In this country, Tina, Tina, we live it-

Trevor Noah 1:08:29 Yeah

Eugene Khoza 1:08:29 ... full factor. You know when I go to your US and watch your TV and I'm like, "You guys are not watching TV. You're watching commercials the whole day." Tina, here we watch reality shows that purport the stereotype of how Black single women behave or ab- about how taxi drivers behave-

Trevor Noah 1:08:43 Yeah

Eugene Khoza 1:08:43 ... or taxi owners.

Trevor Noah 1:08:43 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 1:08:44 And about women with taxi owners and people who are fighting for a home in the township, all those rhetorics are live and happening and seasons get renewed. Season 10 of people fighting for a family home in the township.

Trevor Noah 1:08:55 You know-

Eugene Khoza 1:08:55 But what about... Hmm?

Trevor Noah 1:08:56 So you know, no, you know, it's funny when you say that.

Eugene Khoza 1:08:58 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:08:58 I realize sometimes when you have these conversations with people, y- you, you... Just do this next time you're, you're hanging out in a, in a group of South Africans who are talking.

Eugene Khoza 1:09:07 What, have three microphones and...

Trevor Noah 1:09:09 If you want.

Eugene Khoza 1:09:09 Okay, sir. [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:09:10 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:09:10 You have them on your iPhone. But, like, if you sit around and have these conversations, you, you'll see-

Eugene Khoza 1:09:15 Oh. Sorry, Ryan. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:09:16 If you sit around and have these conversations-

Eugene Khoza 1:09:17 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:09:18 ... notice how differently people respond when you include yourself in, in being aggrieved, right?

Eugene Khoza 1:09:23 Yes, yes.

Trevor Noah 1:09:24 Depending on the color of your skin.

Eugene Khoza 1:09:25 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:09:25 It's, it's a really crazy thing.

Eugene Khoza 1:09:27 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:09:27 So I will see a white South African say... And it doesn't always happen, but when it does, it's really funny.

Eugene Khoza 1:09:33 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:09:33 A white South African will go, "Yeah, man, this crime, I, you know, I don't feel safe," and blah, blah, blah.

Eugene Khoza 1:09:37 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:09:37 Another white South African will go, "Yeah, me too. I just, you know, it's just, it's terrible."

Eugene Khoza 1:09:40 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:09:41 And then a Black South African will say, "Yeah, hey, you never know when they coming."

Eugene Khoza 1:09:44 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:09:45 And then the white South Africans will look at them like, "I mean..."

Eugene Khoza 1:09:48 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:09:50 They'll look at them like, "No, no, but we-

Eugene Khoza 1:09:51 What?

Trevor Noah 1:09:52 "... but we're, like, afraid as well." [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:09:53 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:09:53 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:09:54 You know what I mean?

Eugene Khoza 1:09:55 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:09:55 They, they, sometimes they look at a Black person like, "No, but you can, like, it's your cousin. You can-

Eugene Khoza 1:10:00 Yes

Trevor Noah 1:10:00 ... you can ask him not-

Eugene Khoza 1:10:01 You can smack him

Trevor Noah 1:10:02 ... you can ask him not to take your car."

Eugene Khoza 1:10:03 Ah.

Trevor Noah 1:10:03 I can't do anything.

Dan Corder 1:10:05 Okay.

Eugene Khoza 1:10:05 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:10:05 I can't do anything. Think about it, my biki, it's just you and your... [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:10:09 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:10:09 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:10:09 It's you and your c- it's you and your cousin.

Dan Corder 1:10:11 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:10:12 You're safe. And, and I think-

Dan Corder 1:10:13 White people think, white people think that, uh, Black people's houses with burglar bars are to keep them in.

Trevor Noah 1:10:17 Y- yes. [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:10:19 [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:10:19 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:10:19 But, but you know what? It's, it's, it's a, it's... And I think, I think-

Eugene Khoza 1:10:22 You don't feel sorry for this man? [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:10:25 No, but, but you know what I mean, Dan.

Dan Corder 1:10:26 I know what you mean.

Trevor Noah 1:10:26 It's like, to your point-

Dan Corder 1:10:27 I do know what you mean. I do know what you mean

Trevor Noah 1:10:27 ... I think, I think that's, that's maybe one of the greatest disservices-

Eugene Khoza 1:10:32 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:10:32 ... and injustices-

Dan Corder 1:10:33 Agreed

Trevor Noah 1:10:33 ... we did in our system.

Eugene Khoza 1:10:34 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:10:34 And by the way, I am somebody who's actually quite for what happened with the TRC. I know a lot of people have issues and a lot of people go, "It was wrong, and this and this and this." I think it was innovative. I think it was the first time it's ever been done. I don't think it's ever been done anywhere else. People-

Dan Corder 1:10:51 Not, not in that way. Never was

Trevor Noah 1:10:51 ... yeah, people always try and propose it.

Dan Corder 1:10:53 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:10:54 But I think with any system or any idea, there's gonna be the implementation and you realize, oh, we could improve on that.

Dan Corder 1:10:59 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:10:59 Like a constitution. You can always improve a constitution, but its starting point is-

Eugene Khoza 1:11:03 Especially the part that says South Africa belongs to everyone who lives in it.

Trevor Noah 1:11:06 [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:11:07 You don't like that part?

Eugene Khoza 1:11:08 Uh, no.

Dan Corder 1:11:09 Okay. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:11:11 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:11:12 This is a conversation for another day.

Dan Corder 1:11:14 That's a podcast series.

Eugene Khoza 1:11:15 This is a conversation for another day.

Trevor Noah 1:11:16 No.

Trevor Noah 1:11:17 So, so, so what I mean is, like, you can always improve a constitution.

Eugene Khoza 1:11:20 Yeah, for sure.

Trevor Noah 1:11:20 You can always improve an idea. I think the TRC-

Eugene Khoza 1:11:22 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:11:22 ... first time out, my goodness.

Eugene Khoza 1:11:24 Incredible.

Trevor Noah 1:11:25 What an attempt to mend and to bridge the gaps in a nation where people were separated i, in a way that most nations have never experienced, right?

Eugene Khoza 1:11:36 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:11:36 But I think the one thing we have yet to do, and we have never done, is gone, "Hey, what is that exposure therapy that people need?"

Eugene Khoza 1:11:44 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:11:45 And, and, like, and sort of an involuntary exposure therapy.

Eugene Khoza 1:11:48 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:11:49 You know, I, I, I was talking to a, a friend of mine the other day, Dale, and we were talking about how at our school they had a program where because we were the first generation that was like... Literally, I, you and I-

Eugene Khoza 1:12:01 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:12:01 ... were the first generation. How old are you, Dan?

Dan Corder 1:12:04 31.

Trevor Noah 1:12:04 31, yeah.

Dan Corder 1:12:05 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:12:05 So we were the first generation of kids that went to school with kids of a different race.

Dan Corder 1:12:10 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:12:11 Literally, I sometimes think about how crazy that was.

Dan Corder 1:12:14 Ah.

Eugene Khoza 1:12:14 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:12:14 When I go, like, literally, m- the first year in my school-

Eugene Khoza 1:12:17 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:12:17 ... that there were Black kids, Indian kids, colored kids with white kids.

Eugene Khoza 1:12:22 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:12:23 That was the first time that had ever happened.

Eugene Khoza 1:12:25 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:12:25 You guys were round one. You were the first child.

Trevor Noah 1:12:26 We were literally-

Dan Corder 1:12:27 All an experiment.

Trevor Noah 1:12:28 Yo, our teachers-

Dan Corder 1:12:29 Could have gone so wrong

Trevor Noah 1:12:30 ... our teachers had never seen a Black child in front of them in a classroom before.

Eugene Khoza 1:12:33 Our parents had to wear their Sunday best-

Trevor Noah 1:12:35 Yo

Eugene Khoza 1:12:35 ... for the first drop-off.

Trevor Noah 1:12:36 A drop-off? Our parents didn't even know what a drop-off was.

Eugene Khoza 1:12:39 I mean, drop off-

Trevor Noah 1:12:40 Con-

Eugene Khoza 1:12:41 ... life. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:12:42 No, but think about, just think about that as a concept. I remember being shocked-

Eugene Khoza 1:12:45 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:12:46 ... that when I went to school-

Eugene Khoza 1:12:47 Yeah.

Dan Corder 1:12:47 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:12:47 ... kids were dropped off by their parents-

Eugene Khoza 1:12:50 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:12:50 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:12:50 ... in a vehicle that they owned. B- Like, one child-

Eugene Khoza 1:12:53 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:12:53 ... got out of one car.

Eugene Khoza 1:12:55 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:12:55 Meanwhile, when the Black kids got there, it looked like a circus trick, where like one car and they'd open a door, and then like-

Dan Corder 1:13:01 So many

Trevor Noah 1:13:01 ... you 15.

Eugene Khoza 1:13:03 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:13:03 You... And, and that's how we just traveled around. The back of every bakkie, the back of every van-

Eugene Khoza 1:13:07 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:13:07 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:13:07 ... was all of us. You know what I mean?

Dan Corder 1:13:09 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:13:09 But that exposure, like our school had this program where they went-

Eugene Khoza 1:13:11 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:13:13 ... "We want every kid to go and stay at another kid's house," who they're friends with. They weren't even like... They don't have, like, a stranger.

Dan Corder 1:13:19 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:13:19 But they said, "Hey, you guys are friends."

Eugene Khoza 1:13:21 But it was a deliberate program.

Trevor Noah 1:13:22 Yo.

Dan Corder 1:13:22 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:13:24 It was amazing to see To talking about, like, exposure therapy. It was amazing to see how the Black kids weren't particularly surprised by what they experienced.

Eugene Khoza 1:13:33 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:13:34 Because many of them had moms who were-

Eugene Khoza 1:13:36 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:13:37 ... working for white people.

Eugene Khoza 1:13:39 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:13:39 So they had seen a glimpse of a white life.

Eugene Khoza 1:13:41 Had a sense of it, yeah. For sure.

Trevor Noah 1:13:43 Let me tell you something. Every single white kid who went to go and live with a Black family for a weekend, every single one of them went home and said the same thing. They said, "Mom and Dad, do you know how Black people live?" And not in like a, a righteous way.

Eugene Khoza 1:13:58 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:13:58 Just as like a child.

Eugene Khoza 1:13:59 Like a curious way.

Trevor Noah 1:14:00 Like a 14-year-old, 15-year-old. They went, "Yo, do you, do you know how they live?"

Eugene Khoza 1:14:05 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:14:05 "Do you know how they come to school every day?"

Eugene Khoza 1:14:07 Yeah. Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:14:08 "Do you know that they have to take three buses to get here?"

Eugene Khoza 1:14:11 With other pe- with strangers.

Trevor Noah 1:14:12 "Do you know that they don't have hot water in the morning at their house? You, you, you have to make a fire and then heat it up, and then they pour that out."

Eugene Khoza 1:14:19 Or the coal stove.

Trevor Noah 1:14:20 "And then you have to do it again for each person, and they have to ... You know, they all, they don't have their own bathrooms. You know that their toilet's outside."

Eugene Khoza 1:14:26 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:14:27 I go to school with this kid. I see myself as his direct, like, competition in that way.

Eugene Khoza 1:14:31 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:14:32 But I'm going, "How is he doing math-"

Eugene Khoza 1:14:33 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:14:33 ... "when he woke up like that?"

Eugene Khoza 1:14:35 Mm, does it in the dark.

Trevor Noah 1:14:38 How is he playing cricket with me?

Eugene Khoza 1:14:40 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:14:40 Or playing soccer with me?

Eugene Khoza 1:14:41 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:14:41 How does he have the energy when he ate like that?

Eugene Khoza 1:14:43 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:14:43 And that goes back to the, the conversation you had with that guy in London about, like, starting completely equal from scratch.

Trevor Noah 1:14:49 From scratch.

Dan Corder 1:14:50 And about BEE laws and redress laws-

Trevor Noah 1:14:52 Yeah

Dan Corder 1:14:52 ... and justice and transformation laws. It's that exact conversation.

Trevor Noah 1:14:57 We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break.

Dan Corder 1:15:08 Trevor, I wanted to, um [laughs] I wanted to suggest something, though, because we've been talking about exposure, but there's something along with that which is about getting South Africans to empathize with each other. So a positive example is the Springboks. If we all feel proud of the Springboks for, like, making South African-

Trevor Noah 1:15:23 Yeah

Dan Corder 1:15:23 ... like it cool and, like, good to be South African, to be proud.

Trevor Noah 1:15:26 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:15:26 But like ironically, one thing that quite often doesn't perfectly cut through-

Trevor Noah 1:15:31 Mm-hmm

Dan Corder 1:15:31 ... all, all classes-

Trevor Noah 1:15:32 Yeah

Dan Corder 1:15:32 ... in a capitalist society, but does further than anything else to create empathy, is service delivery failure.

Trevor Noah 1:15:38 Yeah.

Dan Corder 1:15:39 So one of the best ways for South Africans-

Trevor Noah 1:15:40 Yeah

Dan Corder 1:15:40 ... to empathically get together-

Trevor Noah 1:15:42 One

Dan Corder 1:15:42 ... is to go, "Fuck Eskom."

Trevor Noah 1:15:44 Yes.

Dan Corder 1:15:44 And to go, "Fuck the police."

Trevor Noah 1:15:46 Yes.

Dan Corder 1:15:46 I have seen-

Trevor Noah 1:15:47 Yes

Dan Corder 1:15:47 ... Black and white South Africans-

Trevor Noah 1:15:48 Yes

Dan Corder 1:15:48 ... of different classes-

Trevor Noah 1:15:48 Eskom, Eskom has brought us together

Dan Corder 1:15:50 ... like it's brought-

Trevor Noah 1:15:51 No, no, it has

Dan Corder 1:15:51 No, that's, it's a joke-

Trevor Noah 1:15:52 It's true

Dan Corder 1:15:52 ... and it's the truth.

Trevor Noah 1:15:53 No, it's true.

Eugene Khoza 1:15:54 You're right. You're right.

Trevor Noah 1:15:54 It's true.

Dan Corder 1:15:54 Right? It's a, a common agreement that the-

Trevor Noah 1:15:56 Yes

Dan Corder 1:15:56 ... ANC has failed us in terms of ser-

Trevor Noah 1:15:58 Yes

Dan Corder 1:15:58 ... service delivery, and other things that, so, you know, potholes on the road-

Trevor Noah 1:16:01 But can I tell you what I like about Eskom-

Dan Corder 1:16:03 ... street lights not being on

Trevor Noah 1:16:03 ... more than the ANC?

Dan Corder 1:16:04 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:16:04 The ANC is politics, so what ends up happening is people then fall into that trap of making it a synonym for Black.

Eugene Khoza 1:16:09 Yes.

Dan Corder 1:16:10 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:16:10 So they go, "Look at what the ANC has done to South Africa." Then you go like, then a Black person will say, "Yeah, no, hey, I'm gonna start my own political party." Then they're like, "No, no, but you might do the same thing. I mean, look at what the ANC has done."

Dan Corder 1:16:22 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:16:23 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:16:23 Then you're like, "Oh, okay. You're using a ..." What I like about Eskom is-

Dan Corder 1:16:26 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:16:26 ... it's this nameless, faceless-

Eugene Khoza 1:16:29 Yes

Trevor Noah 1:16:29 ... power utility.

Eugene Khoza 1:16:30 Yes.

Dan Corder 1:16:30 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:16:31 And what it has done-

Eugene Khoza 1:16:32 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:16:32 ... and this is something that is like, it's, it's crazy to say, but Eskom, the power provider in South Africa-

Eugene Khoza 1:16:41 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:16:41 ... has done something that has never happened in South Africa.

Eugene Khoza 1:16:45 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:16:46 It has made every South African experience the same thing-

Dan Corder 1:16:50 Exactly

Trevor Noah 1:16:51 ... regardless-

Eugene Khoza 1:16:52 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:16:52 ... of the color of their skin.

Dan Corder 1:16:53 Exactly.

Eugene Khoza 1:16:53 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:16:54 This is the first time in our history-

Eugene Khoza 1:16:56 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:16:56 ... when a Black person and a white person can sit together and go-

Dan Corder 1:16:59 "Yo, stage eight"

Trevor Noah 1:17:00 ... "We have the exact same problem."

Dan Corder 1:17:03 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:17:03 And to your point, we take for granted how ... It's sad that it has to be a problem, but it's like that is something that is so fundamentally powerful.

Dan Corder 1:17:10 Exactly.

Trevor Noah 1:17:11 Is for two people-

Eugene Khoza 1:17:12 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:17:12 ... to go, "Hey, man, you live in a township. I live in a suburb."

Eugene Khoza 1:17:16 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:17:17 "But we both hate Eskom."

Dan Corder 1:17:19 We get it.

Eugene Khoza 1:17:20 Yeah.

Dan Corder 1:17:20 We get it.

Trevor Noah 1:17:20 And-

Dan Corder 1:17:20 It's kind of amazing

Eugene Khoza 1:17:21 ... and those are the small victories that, as South Africans, we tend to miss. I mean, the biggest victory for the TRC was not justice, which would've been great for the victims and the families of the victims, but overall for South Africans, was to see these authoritarians who were backed by the state machinery to decimate Black people-

Trevor Noah 1:17:39 Yeah

Eugene Khoza 1:17:39 ... being told to sit down and shut the fuck up.

Trevor Noah 1:17:41 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:17:41 Damn.

Eugene Khoza 1:17:42 That had never happened, and it happened live with everyone watching. Desmond Tutu and whoever was in the panel could say to them-

Dan Corder 1:17:49 Damn

Eugene Khoza 1:17:49 ... "You, this is not Flak Blas. You're going to sit down, you're going to listen, and you're going to answer these questions." That was the overall resounding victory for all South Africans watching. Not the fact that they pointed us to the grave. So if their protest was to bait fast and stay the course and not snitch on each other, well, that's for him in his grave to take, too. But for us as South Africans, as we were all watching, and we saw this mild-mannered man, Desmond Tutu, disabling them with kindness, but subtly telling them as well to sit down and shut the fuck up for the first time ever, that was more powerful to South Africans-

Dan Corder 1:18:23 Damn

Eugene Khoza 1:18:23 ... than Mandela's fist in the air after wearing his wife's glasses, standing outside the library [laughs] in K- you know, those were not his glasses.

Dan Corder 1:18:30 There's a good frame.

Trevor Noah 1:18:31 [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:18:31 Listen, that, he looked good.

Eugene Khoza 1:18:33 [laughs] After-

Dan Corder 1:18:34 Nice glasses

Eugene Khoza 1:18:34 ... after pulling up in a Cressida.

Dan Corder 1:18:36 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 1:18:36 You know, so those, th- that for us, as, as Black people sitting there all together and was repeating the new cycle-

Dan Corder 1:18:42 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Eugene Khoza 1:18:42 ... was the biggest victory.

Dan Corder 1:18:44 Do you think-

Trevor Noah 1:18:45 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:18:45 It's not the same, but we're talking about things that provide unity and agreement.

Trevor Noah 1:18:50 Right.

Eugene Khoza 1:18:50 Yeah.

Dan Corder 1:18:50 Do you think that the largely Black South African-led, but many different race groups in South Africa communally telling the refugees to totsiens en voetsak-

Trevor Noah 1:18:59 Mm

Dan Corder 1:19:00 ... was similar? It was like, "You guys fuck off."

Trevor Noah 1:19:03 Yes.

Dan Corder 1:19:03 "We don't want you here. You're completely wrong."

Trevor Noah 1:19:06 Yes.

Dan Corder 1:19:06 "We all agree that you've benefited by going to America off of a lie that we all as a country reject."

Trevor Noah 1:19:12 Yeah, it's similar.

Dan Corder 1:19:12 "We all as a country, we, we all as a country say farm murders are not disproportionate or more brutal than all other murders in South Africa."

Trevor Noah 1:19:17 Well, you see, but even, even that-

Dan Corder 1:19:18 "And there's no genocides"

Trevor Noah 1:19:19 ... if you, if you pause, I think it's also ... This is, like, something that's ... Guys, branding. Man, if there's one thing I've learned in observing American politics, whoo, don't mess around with branding, especially with right-wing, as you say.

Eugene Khoza 1:19:28 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:19:29 Right-wing branding is flawless.

Dan Corder 1:19:30 Mm-hmm.

Eugene Khoza 1:19:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:19:30 You know what I mean? Left-wing branding is-

Eugene Khoza 1:19:31 Tried and tested

Trevor Noah 1:19:32 ... left-wing, left-wing branding is often academic-

Eugene Khoza 1:19:34 Waft

Trevor Noah 1:19:34 ... and, and, like-

Dan Corder 1:19:35 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:19:35 ... ephemeral at best.

Dan Corder 1:19:36 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:19:36 It's like, what does that mean?

Dan Corder 1:19:38 You need a slogan. You need a hashtag

Trevor Noah 1:19:39 What if I ... Yo, just think about it for a second, guys.

Dan Corder 1:19:41 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:19:42 Farm murders. Guys, why is a murder labeled differently-

Eugene Khoza 1:19:45 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:19:45 ... than any other murder?

Dan Corder 1:19:46 Totally. White genocide.

Trevor Noah 1:19:48 Yeah, but, but I'm like-

Dan Corder 1:19:49 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:19:49 ... guys, there are murders happening every single day in South Africa everywhere.

Eugene Khoza 1:19:53 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:19:54 They've never been given a special title.

Eugene Khoza 1:19:55 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:19:56 Also, farm murders implies owners, when most of them are laborers-

Trevor Noah 1:19:59 Yes

Dan Corder 1:20:00 ... or people who just happen to live on the farm.

Trevor Noah 1:20:01 Yes.

Dan Corder 1:20:01 But the branding is wink nudge suggestive that it is the-

Trevor Noah 1:20:05 Yes

Dan Corder 1:20:05 ... owners who are, wink nudge, white.

Eugene Khoza 1:20:06 And you're right. To add to that, robberies on farms are actually the problem.

Dan Corder 1:20:11 Totally.

Eugene Khoza 1:20:12 And the same farmers are not willing to disclose what is being robbed in those farms. As we all know, farms are not cash flush businesses. There's a tractor. There's a bakkie.

Trevor Noah 1:20:23 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 1:20:24 There's equipment, but what else is there inside your game farm that is worth more than your car in a safe this big?

Dan Corder 1:20:31 And it's also-

Trevor Noah 1:20:32 Wait, what is it?

Eugene Khoza 1:20:33 Firearms.

Dan Corder 1:20:33 I don't know the stats of ownership-

Eugene Khoza 1:20:35 Mm-hmm

Dan Corder 1:20:35 ... of firearms, but-

Trevor Noah 1:20:35 But they are expensive.

Dan Corder 1:20:36 Yeah, they are very expensive.

Eugene Khoza 1:20:37 Yeah, farms.

Dan Corder 1:20:38 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 1:20:38 The robbery is of the firearm.

Dan Corder 1:20:40 Mm.

Eugene Khoza 1:20:40 So if you have to think about someone who has a cachet of firearms because they cater to guests that come from overseas, that can fly in their firearms-

Trevor Noah 1:20:46 Oh, yeah, that's true

Eugene Khoza 1:20:47 ... to shoot the kudus and the buffalos. Now, there's 4, 500,000 rands worth of firearms and ammunition in a safe, and you've got laborers that don't live or that are not registered to be in this country right next to the border of the place where they come from.

Trevor Noah 1:20:59 Yeah, yeah.

Eugene Khoza 1:20:59 Guess what they're gonna take in your house?

Dan Corder 1:21:01 Something that's also, I mean-

Eugene Khoza 1:21:02 Not about your iPhone.

Dan Corder 1:21:03 Yeah, for sure.

Eugene Khoza 1:21:04 [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:21:04 For sure. And I mean, the nature of rural South Africa is-

Eugene Khoza 1:21:06 Yeah

Dan Corder 1:21:06 ... that very, very often a, th- a farm is the only place with any kind of asset value for 100 square kilometers. And everybody else living in that area are impoverished people living in townships. And that's just a crime story about class.

Eugene Khoza 1:21:19 Mm-hmm.

Dan Corder 1:21:20 If you only have one really successful high-value asset business in a whole area where everyone else doesn't have food to eat-

Eugene Khoza 1:21:25 Mm

Dan Corder 1:21:25 ... what do you think's gonna happen?

Eugene Khoza 1:21:26 Mm-hmm.

Dan Corder 1:21:26 It's like completely a class dynamic function-

Trevor Noah 1:21:29 Yeah

Dan Corder 1:21:29 ... happening in rural areas where the farms are the only places worth robbing, 'cause that's the only places of any kind of value.

Trevor Noah 1:21:35 Yeah, but I think sometimes when we say that, we, we, we actually, um, lose part of an argument that, that ... It, it muddies it. I'll tell you why.

Dan Corder 1:21:44 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:21:45 So sometimes when we say these things, it makes people go, "Oh, so you're saying I'm only getting robbed because I have the money?" Yeah, but I don't wanna be robbed. I don't wanna be killed. I ... You get what I'm saying?

Dan Corder 1:21:54 Totally.

Eugene Khoza 1:21:55 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:21:55 No, no, and, and that's not what you're saying. I, I know this is gonna sound crazier, but I think people need to understand, in South Africa, I'll, I'll say there's two statements. Number one-

Dan Corder 1:22:05 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:22:06 ... crime affects everyone.

Eugene Khoza 1:22:09 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:22:10 Do you know what I mean?

Eugene Khoza 1:22:10 Universally.

Trevor Noah 1:22:10 Crime is not, is not gonna discriminate against your race-

Eugene Khoza 1:22:13 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:22:13 ... your what. But to your point, the people who are least affected-

Dan Corder 1:22:17 Yes

Trevor Noah 1:22:17 ... by crime in South Africa-

Eugene Khoza 1:22:18 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:22:18 For sure

Trevor Noah 1:22:19 ... are white men.

Eugene Khoza 1:22:19 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:22:20 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:22:20 The same ones who are crying the most.

Eugene Khoza 1:22:22 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:22:22 Yeah. And by the way-

Trevor Noah 1:22:23 You know what I mean?

Eugene Khoza 1:22:23 Mm

Dan Corder 1:22:23 ... and this is my particular-

Trevor Noah 1:22:24 But our crime does not discriminate. In fact, you remember that story of, um ... Who was that guy who came to South Africa on a honeymoon and-

Dan Corder 1:22:31 Shrien Dewani. Yes, yes

Trevor Noah 1:22:31 ... Shrien Dewani. Do you remember the story?

Eugene Khoza 1:22:33 You remember we loved this jacket?

Dan Corder 1:22:34 Wife, wife, wife dies in the township or whatever.

Trevor Noah 1:22:36 So yes, Shrien-

Eugene Khoza 1:22:36 Remember when you loved this jacket.

Trevor Noah 1:22:38 I loved this jacket.

Eugene Khoza 1:22:39 We loved this jacket.

Trevor Noah 1:22:40 We?

Eugene Khoza 1:22:41 I loved this jacket.

Trevor Noah 1:22:42 Thank you. Okay.

Eugene Khoza 1:22:44 Sorry.

Trevor Noah 1:22:44 So-

Dan Corder 1:22:44 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:22:45 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:22:46 So-

Dan Corder 1:22:46 Do you wanna just go record a minute? Do you, you and me just sit. [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:22:50 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:22:50 So Shrien Dewani.

Dan Corder 1:22:52 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:22:52 Story, for those who don't know, Shrien Dewani was, it was a story of, uh, I think it was an English national. And he came to, uh, South Africa-

Dan Corder 1:22:59 South Africa

Trevor Noah 1:22:59 ... for his honeymoon

Dan Corder 1:23:00 With his new wife

Trevor Noah 1:23:00 ... and then he was, he was on honeymoon with his, with his new wife.

Eugene Khoza 1:23:03 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:23:04 And then she was tragically killed.

Eugene Khoza 1:23:05 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:23:06 And his story was that they got kidnapped by South Africans.

Eugene Khoza 1:23:09 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:23:09 Well, Black South Africans kidnapped them, and then-

Dan Corder 1:23:12 Take him to a township, yeah

Trevor Noah 1:23:12 ... murdered her, and then he escaped somehow. They let him go, and he was ... And that was, that was the story. And I will never forget this till the day I die, because it's one of the, one of the darkest ... It's like macabre because it's dark, but it's strangely funny, especially the further you get from it time-wise. So literally, South Africans were like-

Eugene Khoza 1:23:29 Mm, mm

Trevor Noah 1:23:29 ... "No, if they killed her-

Dan Corder 1:23:29 How did they make it out?

Trevor Noah 1:23:30 ... if they killed her, they, like-

Eugene Khoza 1:23:31 Yes

Trevor Noah 1:23:31 ... we'd kill you also."

Eugene Khoza 1:23:32 Yeah. You're the biggest threat here as a man.

Trevor Noah 1:23:34 And he was like, "No, they, they killed her," but then they let ... They're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah."

Dan Corder 1:23:38 No way.

Trevor Noah 1:23:39 And, and in the same way-

Eugene Khoza 1:23:40 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:23:40 ... I say that it's like the same thing. I go, like, with this, you know, white genocide. It's like, guys, guys, guys, guys, guys-

Dan Corder 1:23:46 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:23:46 ... here our crime comes for everyone.

Dan Corder 1:23:48 Mm.

Eugene Khoza 1:23:49 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:23:49 We, here we have democratic crime.

Dan Corder 1:23:51 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:23:52 Have something.

Dan Corder 1:23:53 Equal opportunity crime.

Eugene Khoza 1:23:54 We will, we will-

Trevor Noah 1:23:54 [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:23:54 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:23:54 ... indiscriminate crime.

Trevor Noah 1:23:55 Our crime-

Eugene Khoza 1:23:56 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:23:56 ... it's not Black empowered. It's not white empowered.

Dan Corder 1:23:59 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:23:59 Have something, someone will try and take it from you.

Eugene Khoza 1:24:02 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:24:02 Now, we're not saying we're for that.

Eugene Khoza 1:24:04 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:24:04 But we are saying that it's ... You know what I mean?

Dan Corder 1:24:05 That's the reality.

Trevor Noah 1:24:06 That's, that's the reality of it, is like we're living in a world. But I, I would love to go back to what you're saying about, like, the shared empathy.

Dan Corder 1:24:11 Mm-hmm.

Eugene Khoza 1:24:12 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:24:13 Is ... I mean, is there actually a way that that can happen?

Dan Corder 1:24:17 What do you mean actually?

Trevor Noah 1:24:19 So you were saying, like, the Springboks, you know, like, the, the national rugby team. I will say this is just, and this is just, like, a side opinion of mine.

Dan Corder 1:24:25 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:24:26 I personally blame Bafana Bafana.

Dan Corder 1:24:28 Yes, of course.

Trevor Noah 1:24:29 Personally, personally. If you look at South Africa's story, our worst moments w- d- democratic South Africa, our worst moments happen when Bafana Bafana is doing its worst.

Eugene Khoza 1:24:40 Just look at Dan too. [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:24:41 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:24:41 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:24:41 You're engaging me too much on this. I can't go on.

Trevor Noah 1:24:43 But I'm saying Bafana Bafana.

Eugene Khoza 1:24:44 And look at, look at-

Trevor Noah 1:24:45 But I'm saying Bafana Bafana.

Dan Corder 1:24:46 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:24:47 Okay. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:24:49 Our-

Dan Corder 1:24:50 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:24:50 ... our soccer team-

Eugene Khoza 1:24:51 Yes

Dan Corder 1:24:51 When it's bad

Trevor Noah 1:24:51 ... our football team, guys-

Eugene Khoza 1:24:52 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:24:53 ... when it's at its worst-

Dan Corder 1:24:54 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:24:54 ... the country. That team has an outsized weight on his shoulders that I think they need to acknowledge.

Eugene Khoza 1:25:00 Yeah.

Dan Corder 1:25:01 And Kaizer Chiefs.

Trevor Noah 1:25:02 Guys. [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:25:03 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:25:03 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:25:04 You look at, you look at, you look at 2010. You know what part of the reason-

Eugene Khoza 1:25:07 Football

Trevor Noah 1:25:07 ... 2010 was so good for us? 'Cause we were in the World Cup. We didn't have to qualify for it.

Dan Corder 1:25:10 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:25:10 We were definitely gonna be in it.

Dan Corder 1:25:12 Yes, yes.

Trevor Noah 1:25:13 1998, that whole period, that honeymoon-

Dan Corder 1:25:16 South African victory

Trevor Noah 1:25:16 ... what were we, what were we doing as, as the, the soccer team in the country?

Dan Corder 1:25:19 Mm-hmm.

Eugene Khoza 1:25:20 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:25:20 We were winning.

Dan Corder 1:25:21 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:25:21 Do you get what I'm saying?

Dan Corder 1:25:22 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:25:22 And I think ... I know this is a stretch, but I do think there's also an element in South Africa of when the rugby team wins, the whites have won.

Dan Corder 1:25:32 Mm-hmm.

Eugene Khoza 1:25:32 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:25:32 Blacks support the rugby team as well, but the apparatus of it is still seen as like-

Dan Corder 1:25:36 Totally

Trevor Noah 1:25:37 ... "Oh, the white institution did a thing right."

Dan Corder 1:25:38 Totally.

Eugene Khoza 1:25:38 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:25:38 When the cricket team wins, they go, "Yeah, you see the white thing won." When Bafana Bafana loses-

Eugene Khoza 1:25:43 You guys

Trevor Noah 1:25:43 ... crime. You see those crimes?

Dan Corder 1:25:45 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:25:46 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:25:46 Did you see how they were playing?

Eugene Khoza 1:25:48 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:25:48 It's crime, that one.

Eugene Khoza 1:25:50 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:25:50 And I'm being serious.

Eugene Khoza 1:25:50 Yeah, yeah. Subliminally.

Trevor Noah 1:25:51 And that's why I say, like, Bafana ... I'm j- Like, Bafana Bafana has an outsized influence- On how the country sees itself.

Dan Corder 1:25:59 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:25:59 Many of my Brazilian friends have said the same thing.

Dan Corder 1:26:01 Love it, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:26:02 They go, they go, "When the Brazilian national team is doing well-

Dan Corder 1:26:04 Mm.

Eugene Khoza 1:26:04 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:26:05 ... Brazil is doing well."

Dan Corder 1:26:06 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:26:06 When we're doing terribly, you'll see more protests, more violence, more everything. And I'm, it might just be confirmation bias, but I do think there's something to how the collective experiences its reality based on, like, a few-

Dan Corder 1:26:18 I think it's a consensus-

Trevor Noah 1:26:19 Sure

Dan Corder 1:26:19 ... decision of how we're doing expressed in a very, very small representative example-

Trevor Noah 1:26:24 Mm

Dan Corder 1:26:24 ... that makes us feel proud.

Trevor Noah 1:26:25 Yes, that's true.

Dan Corder 1:26:26 It's like, it's like, uh, our very best are the best at the world at a thing that the world cares about.

Trevor Noah 1:26:33 Mm.

Eugene Khoza 1:26:33 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:26:33 And soccer is the most extreme version than that, of that, 'cause soccer is bigger than any religion.

Trevor Noah 1:26:37 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 1:26:37 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:26:37 It's bigger than any nation. It's the most practiced cultural thing on the planet. Uh-

Trevor Noah 1:26:42 [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:26:43 ... and we are a football nation first and foremost.

Trevor Noah 1:26:45 Yeah.

Dan Corder 1:26:45 Particularly amongst Black South Africans-

Trevor Noah 1:26:47 Yes

Dan Corder 1:26:47 ... we're a football nation first and foremost. And so if football, soccer, our best 11, the boys, Bafana, our best stock are good, we feel good. But if our best offering is getting trashed by or, say, drawing with Lesotho, and no disrespect to Lesotho, but-

Trevor Noah 1:27:04 That was disrespect

Dan Corder 1:27:04 ... you know how South Africans feel about Lesotho.

Trevor Noah 1:27:06 That was heavy disrespect.

Eugene Khoza 1:27:07 100% disrespect.

Dan Corder 1:27:08 I'm just-

Trevor Noah 1:27:09 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:27:09 You see how South Africans talk about Lesotho.

Trevor Noah 1:27:11 Man, then na-

Dan Corder 1:27:11 Especially when Lesotho is like, "We want the-"

Trevor Noah 1:27:12 Na, na Lesotho ke kopa tshwarelo.

Eugene Khoza 1:27:13 [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:27:14 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:27:14 Lesotho-

Eugene Khoza 1:27:15 Especially like, "Ni na, nke a tse hore ke sharp."

Trevor Noah 1:27:17 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:27:18 "Ha o tse sharp."

Trevor Noah 1:27:18 "A ke mo, a ke mo itse out here."

Eugene Khoza 1:27:20 "Ha o tse right."

Trevor Noah 1:27:21 "A ke itse gore o tsile kae moo thakong."

Eugene Khoza 1:27:22 "Ha e nne ko be power."

Trevor Noah 1:27:23 "Ha, ha, ha. A ke itse-"

Eugene Khoza 1:27:24 "Lesotho ha e ke three thirty four."

Trevor Noah 1:27:26 "A ke itse-"

Eugene Khoza 1:27:26 "Le- hey."

Dan Corder 1:27:27 I'm just saying we all saw how South Africa, even Black South Africans talked when Lesotho said they wanted half of the Free State back.

Trevor Noah 1:27:34 Yeah. [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:27:34 [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:27:34 We all saw that. No, but what I'm saying is it speaks to our pride in ourselves, our own self-value-

Trevor Noah 1:27:40 Right

Dan Corder 1:27:40 ... even if we are not the soccer players ourselves.

Trevor Noah 1:27:41 Yeah, yeah. You're right, actually.

Eugene Khoza 1:27:42 Yeah. You're right

Dan Corder 1:27:43 .The same way that, that, like, frankly, and this is both funny and not a joke, when Chiefs won the Nedbank Cup first victory in 10 years, many nine-year-old kids-

Trevor Noah 1:27:53 Mm

Dan Corder 1:27:53 ... saw their dads happier than they had ever seen them-

Trevor Noah 1:27:56 That's true

Dan Corder 1:27:56 ... in their whole lives.

Trevor Noah 1:27:58 That's true.

Eugene Khoza 1:27:58 Yeah.

Dan Corder 1:27:58 There were nine-year-olds who had seen their dads joyful, truly in a childlike manner, for the first time in their whole lives.

Eugene Khoza 1:28:06 Because of that one resounding victory.

Dan Corder 1:28:07 Exactly.

Trevor Noah 1:28:08 That's true.

Dan Corder 1:28:08 And so if you think about the kind of de-

Trevor Noah 1:28:10 Terrible nine-year-olds. You should have, the terrible nine-year-olds. You should have done better.

Dan Corder 1:28:12 [laughs] Yeah. Once was, by the way.

Trevor Noah 1:28:13 They should have been, they should have-

Dan Corder 1:28:14 Uh, so-

Trevor Noah 1:28:14 They should have made their parents happier.

Dan Corder 1:28:16 [laughs] But what I'm trying to say is-

Eugene Khoza 1:28:17 Dan, you're right. Makes sense

Dan Corder 1:28:18 ... when Tyler does really well, it does have a psychic-

Trevor Noah 1:28:21 Yeah, it does

Dan Corder 1:28:21 ... emotional effect on how we feel when you do really well. It has a psychic ... I do have a question for you.

Trevor Noah 1:28:27 Shoot.

Dan Corder 1:28:28 Sorry. I've been, I've, uh, I thought of this a bit earlier, but, like, wi- wi- with your success, it made so many of us feel proud. Not just people in the industry, but South Africans going our very best are at the level of the very best. And so we were all very and remain deeply invested in you as a project-

Trevor Noah 1:28:45 Mm. Thank you

Dan Corder 1:28:45 ... as a successful person. Charlize Theron is the same. Tyler is the same. Uh, but what I've been thinking about with you recently is that you're almost like Captain South Africa to South Africans. You're like Captain America because you are our guy who went to the world and showed America what it was like to look at America from outside of it, and you became the center of all of these massive, vital discussions about race and class and world identity and stuff. And so people expect you to be our Captain America, our shield, the one who defends us in the face of everything, almost who has to do country duty, patriotic duty. People say, "Oh, Trevor must tell Trump that he's wrong about South Africa. Trevor must tell Elon Musk to stop doing this."

Trevor Noah 1:29:28 Yeah.

Dan Corder 1:29:29 And I want ... I've always genuinely wanted to ask what that's like for you, because there's this weird thing that you need to be our greatest South African patriot because of how we as a country conceive of you, and I'm quite interested to know what that's like for you to go through.

Trevor Noah 1:29:46 So let me start by saying this. If I meet Trump one on one, ha, guys.

Eugene Khoza 1:29:51 On sight?

Trevor Noah 1:29:52 Hey, guys, uh, my man, I'm telling him, eh?

Dan Corder 1:29:55 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:29:56 Telling him everything.

Eugene Khoza 1:29:58 Everything?

Trevor Noah 1:29:59 You, hey. Us, ha.

Dan Corder 1:30:01 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:30:02 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:30:03 Hey. Hey. Wait, are you telling me that Trump will learn th- what this means from you? My man, Trump, Trump knows it.

Dan Corder 1:30:11 Oh.

Eugene Khoza 1:30:11 Oh, he knows it?

Trevor Noah 1:30:12 Trump knows it. He's halfway there.

Eugene Khoza 1:30:13 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:30:16 Those, those things we also-

Dan Corder 1:30:17 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:30:21 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:30:22 No, no, no, no. You know, I mean, you're very kind. I think ... How do I think of it for, for me? So the first and most important thing is I do not believe most of the hype.

Dan Corder 1:30:37 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:30:37 Okay? Because I have friends who humble me very regularly. So no, but, but, but, but, but on the real is I go one of the, one of the most beautiful things I've learned throughout history is how the stories that we flattened to, um, sort of, like, lift up individuals-

Dan Corder 1:30:57 Oh, yeah

Trevor Noah 1:30:57 ... are oftentimes a much more complex tapestry than we think. So we say Nelson Mandela, but if we're honest, the list of names that is in and around it is, is so massive-

Dan Corder 1:31:07 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:31:08 ... that you're like, oh, this guy was n- not really, like, the thing.

Eugene Khoza 1:31:12 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:31:13 Now, I'm not-

Dan Corder 1:31:13 It didn't, it didn't live and die by him.

Trevor Noah 1:31:14 No. And, and now I'm not saying Nelson Man- I'm not gonna be like, oh, Nelson Mandela didn't do much. No, I'm not saying that. But I'm saying y- you forget that this was an apparatus. You forget that this was strategic. Martin Luther King Jr., another example, you know? E- everyone from his wife, and this is often the case, by the way, with many of these great men.

Dan Corder 1:31:31 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:31:31 The wife is the person who's doing, like, m- most of if not half of the work or more, and their name doesn't live on in the exact same way.

Eugene Khoza 1:31:37 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:31:37 True.

Trevor Noah 1:31:37 You know, writing the speeches, building the strategy, fighting when they're in prison for 27 years, et cetera. So I think it's easy for people to think of Captain America, but I'm like, yo, man, the Wakandans made that shield. You know what I mean? Who's that vibranium coming from?

Dan Corder 1:31:52 Mm-hmm.

Eugene Khoza 1:31:52 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:31:52 Do you know what I mean? Who built his ... 'Cause that guy doesn't know how to make a costume.

Dan Corder 1:31:55 Sure.

Trevor Noah 1:31:55 Who put him in that fridge?

Eugene Khoza 1:31:57 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:31:57 Who pumped that medicine into his veins? Who made him ... The guy went to training. Who's training him? How they ...

Dan Corder 1:32:02 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:32:02 So I think if you ever make the mistake of thinking-

Dan Corder 1:32:06 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:32:07 That you as an individual are a superhero, you then forget every little piece of the puzzle that came together to make you who you are.

Dan Corder 1:32:15 Absolutely.

Trevor Noah 1:32:15 So I just go, I'm just e- I, like, I love football, so for me, life, football is an analogy for life always. But I go, the thing I love about football-

Dan Corder 1:32:24 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:32:24 ... soccer, the sport, is you really learn very quickly, you are just in a team.

Dan Corder 1:32:30 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:32:30 Every position on the team-

Dan Corder 1:32:32 Vital

Trevor Noah 1:32:32 ... vital. Strikers get all the credit.

Dan Corder 1:32:35 When the home-

Trevor Noah 1:32:35 All the credit

Dan Corder 1:32:36 ... goes all the time.

Trevor Noah 1:32:36 Yo, man

Dan Corder 1:32:37 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:32:37 ... strikers get all the credit. But let me tell you something.

Dan Corder 1:32:39 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:32:40 Good luck being a striker who gets all the credit when your defender lets you down.

Dan Corder 1:32:44 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:32:44 When your midfielder lets you down, when your goalkeeper lets you down.

Dan Corder 1:32:46 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:32:46 Just good luck on that. So for me, genuinely, I, I-

Dan Corder 1:32:49 Sure

Trevor Noah 1:32:49 ... and it helps me alleviate some of the pressure, because I go, I don't take the acclaim the same way I don't take the pressure.

Dan Corder 1:32:54 Totally.

Trevor Noah 1:32:55 'Cause I go, you can be grateful. I'm like, "Hey, thank you. I did my best."

Dan Corder 1:32:58 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:32:58 And I'm, I'm honored that anyone could think that, but at the same time, when someone's like, "Ah, you must tell them..." I do think it's funny if someone's like, "Trevor, you must tell Trump." Then I'm like-

Dan Corder 1:33:07 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:33:07 ... "My man, I, I would love to see the world you think I live in."

Dan Corder 1:33:10 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:33:12 I love the fact that you think I live next door to the White House.

Dan Corder 1:33:14 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:33:14 And then every morning I drive out and Trump is there, beep beep. Hey.

Dan Corder 1:33:17 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:33:17 Hi, man. Uh, uh. I, I wish that was the case.

Eugene Khoza 1:33:21 I'm visualizing that. Sorry.

Trevor Noah 1:33:22 [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:33:23 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:33:24 But, but you know what I'm saying. Sorry, I got, I got... Sorry. Um.

Trevor Noah 1:33:27 [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:33:27 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:33:28 Look.

Trevor Noah 1:33:29 No, I, I, I, I wish that was the case, but I-

Dan Corder 1:33:32 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:33:32 ... but I... Yeah, I think-

Dan Corder 1:33:33 I just think it's an interesting thing that you go through in, in the way that South Africans perceive of you versus what-

Trevor Noah 1:33:42 Yeah, I'm, I'm with you, but I also-

Dan Corder 1:33:43 ... versus the truth of your career

Trevor Noah 1:33:44 ... I also find it's, it's, it's also semi-generational.

Dan Corder 1:33:47 Oh, interesting. Okay.

Trevor Noah 1:33:48 There are many South Africans f- who are a certain generation who sort of don't see me like that. They just see me as, like, a fun ambassador, like our kid who made it.

Dan Corder 1:33:55 Right.

Eugene Khoza 1:33:55 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:33:55 There's people who are older than me who go like, "Oh, well done, Bafana. Well done." Then there's people who are my age who are like, "Ah, my man."

Dan Corder 1:34:01 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:34:01 "Ah, nice to see you."

Eugene Khoza 1:34:02 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:34:02 I've seen younger ones who are just like I'm, like, a mythical figure to them. I honestly think everyone has a role to play, and I don't mean this in, like, a, like, a kumbaya kind of way.

Dan Corder 1:34:11 Kumbaya.

Trevor Noah 1:34:11 I think everyone has a role to play. And we take for granted how much of an impact that role has.

Eugene Khoza 1:34:17 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:34:18 We all take it for granted.

Eugene Khoza 1:34:19 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:34:19 But that's something that my mom left with me. Like, man, and you and I have a similar story with, like, our moms. Man, my mom, I remember we'd, like, go somewhere random. A, a, a school that's got a church event on a weekend. So it's, it's a school, but it's now it's church for the weekend. We'd walk in onto the grounds. There'd be papers lying on the ground, you know, like packets of chips-

Eugene Khoza 1:34:42 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:34:42 ... that have been thrown away by the school kids. My mom would start picking them up. Guys, these things are infinite.

Eugene Khoza 1:34:47 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:34:48 As the wind blows, so do they. My mom would start picking them up. I would stand there like, "What are you, what are you doing? It's a Sunday. We're here for a ch-" She'd be like, "Hey, wena. Help me."

Dan Corder 1:34:56 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:34:56 But I'm like, "Mom, first of all, it's not our school. I- it's a Sunday. Come on, man." She's like, "Hey." Then I'm like, "Yep." And then she would always say, "If I'm not gonna clean it, who's gonna clean it then?"

Dan Corder 1:35:06 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:35:06 'Cause everyone else is walking past here saying, "It's not my problem." And I think we take for granted, and this is, this is where it's, like, difficult in life, and I think it's for all things.

Dan Corder 1:35:15 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:35:16 It's you and your personal relationships. It's you and your community, you and your society, you as a nation. Two things can be true at the same time. There's a duality that exists that's difficult for people to deal with because sometimes we're fighting against someone who's trying to flatten it, and so then we become flat ourselves.

Dan Corder 1:35:34 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:35:35 So someone goes, "There's, uh, genocide of white people in South Africa." And then you go like, "South Africa's great. There's a..." Then you, like, now you can't address the things that are happening in South Africa-

Dan Corder 1:35:47 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:35:47 ... because this person is trying to flatten it.

Dan Corder 1:35:48 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:35:48 You wanna deal with the corruption in the government, but you know, when you say, "Yes, there's corruption," they go, "Yes, the Blacks." Then you're like, "No, you're using my acknowledgement to empower your racism."

Dan Corder 1:36:00 Sure.

Trevor Noah 1:36:00 "But I'm actually trying to work on a problem that needs to be solved."

Eugene Khoza 1:36:03 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:36:04 Do you know what I mean?

Eugene Khoza 1:36:04 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:36:04 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:36:04 And so I think if you think of it in those small interactions-

Eugene Khoza 1:36:09 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:36:09 ... like, guys, white people take for granted. You know, you said it in the beginning, Eugene.

Eugene Khoza 1:36:13 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:36:14 White people take for granted how much leeway and grace-

Dan Corder 1:36:21 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:36:21 ... Black people have given them in South Africa, and not like a, "You're lucky," thing, but, like, as an ubuntu thing. Like l- like real levels of it.

Eugene Khoza 1:36:28 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:36:29 Real. And some of it is, y- you know, internalized oppression maybe, but some of it is just like, "Yo, man."

Dan Corder 1:36:35 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 1:36:35 That's who we are.

Trevor Noah 1:36:35 We, we're still people.

Dan Corder 1:36:37 Yeah, for sure.

Eugene Khoza 1:36:37 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:36:37 We're still people. And I think, like, a white person, the average white person takes for granted how their tone of voice, the way they interact with a Black person, the way they... I've, and I've seen the difference. I've seen some white people who think the person who cleans their house is lucky to have that job.

Dan Corder 1:36:55 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:36:56 And then I've seen white people who go, "Yo, man, this person has been cleaning my family's home for maybe two generations even."

Dan Corder 1:37:06 Yeah, yeah.

Eugene Khoza 1:37:06 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:37:06 "This person has watched and raised my children."

Dan Corder 1:37:09 Correct.

Trevor Noah 1:37:10 "This person has cooked food for my entire family-"

Eugene Khoza 1:37:12 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:37:14 ... for decades. How is it that they still don't have a driver's license?"

Dan Corder 1:37:18 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:37:20 How is it that this person who has watched us, they've moved houses with us.

Eugene Khoza 1:37:24 Mm. Relocated their lives.

Trevor Noah 1:37:26 But how is it that this person hasn't moved houses?

Eugene Khoza 1:37:29 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:37:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:37:31 So what has happened in our world? Because now if that person was a blood relative, I don't think you would be as proud of yourself.

Dan Corder 1:37:37 Yeah, for sure.

Trevor Noah 1:37:38 I don't, I don't think you'd be able to look at yourself going like, "Oh, yeah, no, my, my aunt has lived with us for 40 years. She raised me and my, and, and my brothers and sisters."

Eugene Khoza 1:37:46 For taking their own kids-

Trevor Noah 1:37:47 But she-

Eugene Khoza 1:37:47 ... and their livelihood

Trevor Noah 1:37:48 ... every day when she goes home-

Dan Corder 1:37:50 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:37:51 ... she walks for 10, 20 minutes, then catches a transport to, then to another transport, to another transport-

Eugene Khoza 1:37:58 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:37:58 ... that takes her three and a half hours to get home.

Dan Corder 1:38:00 Yeah, for sure.

Trevor Noah 1:38:01 That's my aunt.

Dan Corder 1:38:02 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 1:38:02 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:38:02 No one would be proud of that.

Dan Corder 1:38:04 Wouldn't tolerate it either. Wouldn't allow it to happen.

Trevor Noah 1:38:06 And so that-

Eugene Khoza 1:38:06 Forget that. E- sorry, sorry.

Trevor Noah 1:38:08 No.

Eugene Khoza 1:38:08 Even the, the safety conversation with domestic workers versus the people that, other people that live in the house who are family members.

Trevor Noah 1:38:13 My man.

Dan Corder 1:38:13 For sure.

Eugene Khoza 1:38:14 They would know how to protect themselves, where the fire arm is, where the panic button is, where the-

Trevor Noah 1:38:17 My man

Eugene Khoza 1:38:17 ... who to call. But the person who stays there in the house alone-

Trevor Noah 1:38:20 Yes

Eugene Khoza 1:38:21 ... apparently according to people, they're exempt to being violated. But here's my thing.

Trevor Noah 1:38:25 They aren't. To your point, actually, to expand on that.

Eugene Khoza 1:38:27 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:38:27 And I, you do say this, Dan, and I think it's important to hit on.

Eugene Khoza 1:38:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:38:31 There are so many times when these- Farm murders are spoken about

Eugene Khoza 1:38:36 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:38:37 And the same people who are going talking to Trump, going around the world parading the story, they completely ignore everyone else who also lost their lives in that same robbery-

Eugene Khoza 1:38:46 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:38:46 ... or that, that same attack.

Eugene Khoza 1:38:47 Yeah.

Dan Corder 1:38:48 Totally. Totally.

Trevor Noah 1:38:48 A house-

Eugene Khoza 1:38:50 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:38:50 ... on a farm was robbed-

Dan Corder 1:38:52 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:38:52 ... was raided.

Eugene Khoza 1:38:53 Mm-hmm.

Dan Corder 1:38:53 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:38:54 The people who were on it were killed.

Dan Corder 1:38:56 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:38:57 Two of them, maybe three of them maybe were white.

Eugene Khoza 1:39:00 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:39:00 The remaining people aren't even counted. And I always say to people, that's probably one of the greatest injustices that Black people have suffered throughout time-

Dan Corder 1:39:07 Yeah, is the erasure

Trevor Noah 1:39:08 ... is that even in the worst atrocities-

Eugene Khoza 1:39:10 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:39:10 ... go to the Holocaust. Germans counted Jewish people meticulously.

Dan Corder 1:39:15 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:39:15 We've got a book of numbers.

Dan Corder 1:39:17 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:39:17 The same Germans in Namibia, estimates.

Dan Corder 1:39:20 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:39:21 How many Black people were killed in those concentration camps?

Eugene Khoza 1:39:23 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:39:25 Estimates.

Dan Corder 1:39:25 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:39:26 We still don't know. We still don't- the only reason we know numbers from even the slave trade was because of books.

Eugene Khoza 1:39:30 Yeah.

Dan Corder 1:39:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:39:30 Because of stock.

Eugene Khoza 1:39:32 Accou-

Dan Corder 1:39:32 Meticulous records

Eugene Khoza 1:39:32 ... accounting.

Trevor Noah 1:39:33 But not even-

Eugene Khoza 1:39:34 But not accounting of humans.

Trevor Noah 1:39:35 Yes.

Dan Corder 1:39:35 Of money.

Trevor Noah 1:39:36 Accounting of money.

Eugene Khoza 1:39:37 Yes.

Dan Corder 1:39:37 'Cause you need to sell.

Eugene Khoza 1:39:38 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:39:38 But I'm saying like that, that's-

Dan Corder 1:39:39 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:39:40 ... and I think that's one of the big things in South Africa is like-

Dan Corder 1:39:42 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:39:42 ... if, if we, if we think of it that way, it's not saying to a white person, "Be guilty."

Eugene Khoza 1:39:47 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:39:47 Don't- forget guilt.

Eugene Khoza 1:39:48 No.

Dan Corder 1:39:48 Yeah.

Eugene Khoza 1:39:49 Leave it.

Trevor Noah 1:39:49 Forget guilt for a moment.

Eugene Khoza 1:39:51 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:39:52 Because guilt now makes it, then it's easy for someone to be like, "But I wasn't here, hey. I wasn't here, bro." Yeah, it's fine my man.

Eugene Khoza 1:39:57 Why do they-

Trevor Noah 1:39:58 It's fine

Eugene Khoza 1:39:59 ... why, why-

Trevor Noah 1:40:00 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:40:01 [clears throat] Why do- [laughs]

Dan Corder 1:40:04 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:40:05 [laughs]

Eugene Khoza 1:40:08 Also, which, which part of the syllabus is it for white female teachers that teaches them these two lines?

Trevor Noah 1:40:18 Yeah, but you see that.

Eugene Khoza 1:40:19 Wh- wh- where does that-

Trevor Noah 1:40:21 But all of that, bruh

Eugene Khoza 1:40:22 ... come from?

Trevor Noah 1:40:22 All of that.

Eugene Khoza 1:40:23 What makes it okay for-

Trevor Noah 1:40:25 Yes

Eugene Khoza 1:40:25 ... a, a person of authority to stand in front of a class where school fees are being paid and minds are being shaped-

Trevor Noah 1:40:30 All of that

Eugene Khoza 1:40:31 ... and say those words without consequence?

Trevor Noah 1:40:36 But because remember that-

Eugene Khoza 1:40:37 Where is the shebeen?

Trevor Noah 1:40:38 But that's my thing is-

Eugene Khoza 1:40:40 Hmm

Trevor Noah 1:40:41 ... she's right. It's not a shebeen here.

Eugene Khoza 1:40:43 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:40:43 And shebeens are loud places.

Eugene Khoza 1:40:45 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:40:45 But in that instance-

Dan Corder 1:40:46 [laughs] Not ideal teaching environments.

Trevor Noah 1:40:47 Yeah, but in, but in that instance-

Eugene Khoza 1:40:49 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:40:49 ... you're using shebeen as a synonym for what?

Eugene Khoza 1:40:51 Mm-hmm.

Dan Corder 1:40:52 Blackness.

Trevor Noah 1:40:52 This is not a place of Blackness, man.

Dan Corder 1:40:54 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:40:54 Don't be Black here, man.

Eugene Khoza 1:40:55 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:40:55 Yeah.

Dan Corder 1:40:56 I want to, uh, off of what you just said about the uncaringness towards Black death versus the hyper-fixation on white death-

Trevor Noah 1:41:03 Yeah

Dan Corder 1:41:03 ... or like victims of white crime. One of the thing ... The, the great things that frustrates me about South Africa is that overwhelming mainstream media obsesses over and cares over white suffering in a way that they don't over Black suffering. So I often say if a Black person sneezes near a white person, it's a news headline. Whereas many Black people will die and it won't even become a report.

Trevor Noah 1:41:26 No.

Dan Corder 1:41:27 So that comes from during apartheid, all of the massive media companies, their, their buying audience was white readers, Zwart Gefa and all of the rest.

Trevor Noah 1:41:35 Yes. Yeah.

Dan Corder 1:41:35 But since apartheid, the capitalist incentive to continue to cater to a paying, reading, literate, highly educated audience has meant obsession over white plight without reporting on Black death and Black suffering and impoverished peoples' suffering. And then it also comes down to something that you always talk about with- which is language, which is so important. Because if broadly the biggest media in the country and the hyper-commercialized media is broadcasting in English and Afrikaans, it's just less likely that anyone's ever gonna think, what does the Zulu community want to read about?

Trevor Noah 1:42:06 Yeah.

Dan Corder 1:42:06 What does a Xhosa community care about? Which often then means people dying, people really, really suffering. And so if you come to South Africa and you read our biggest news, uh, sites 365 days of the year, something extraordinarily horrific needs to happen to a Black person before it's news.

Trevor Noah 1:42:25 Yes.

Eugene Khoza 1:42:25 Hmm.

Dan Corder 1:42:25 Something unbelievably uns- Thabo Bester needs to happen-

Trevor Noah 1:42:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Dan Corder 1:42:30 ... to hear about that. Where-

Eugene Khoza 1:42:31 Miracle. Yeah. Needs to happen

Dan Corder 1:42:32 ... exactly.

Eugene Khoza 1:42:33 Before we go, "Oh."

Dan Corder 1:42:33 Whereas, whereas smaller infractions, and again, whenever we talk about crime, as you said earlier, we can't debase it. We can't- I'm not saying that these crimes don't matter.

Eugene Khoza 1:42:42 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:42:42 I'm just saying smaller, less harmful crimes when white people are the victims become explosions.

Trevor Noah 1:42:48 Yeah.

Dan Corder 1:42:49 And for that explosion to happen for a Black victim-

Trevor Noah 1:42:52 Yeah

Dan Corder 1:42:52 ... it needs to be horrific. Like think about how Thabo Bester never, ever, and there are other reasons why the Oscar Pistorius case was so massive.

Eugene Khoza 1:43:01 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:43:01 But Thabo Bester versus Oscar Pistorius, and I know it's horrible to bean count when people have died.

Eugene Khoza 1:43:06 Mm-hmm.

Dan Corder 1:43:06 But Thabo Bester, all of his victims, the horrific shit that he did for such a long time-

Eugene Khoza 1:43:12 Mm

Dan Corder 1:43:12 ... versus the coverage of Oscar Pistorius-

Trevor Noah 1:43:14 Yeah

Dan Corder 1:43:14 ... because Reeva was a white victim.

Eugene Khoza 1:43:16 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:43:16 And again, not debasing Reeva at all-

Trevor Noah 1:43:18 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Dan Corder 1:43:18 ... or the church, you know, everything. What I'm trying to talk about is how South Africa's media needs to change to care about Black suffering properly.

Eugene Khoza 1:43:25 Mm.

Dan Corder 1:43:25 And they may actually find out that that's in a purely capitalistic way, really good business. Because most people in South Africa are Black and want to know about their lives and their lived experiences.

Eugene Khoza 1:43:34 You know what Dan is saying is absolutely true, and I even go a step further and I say there's a systematic way that the media has kept the white, the Black majority that is influential and exposed to technology busy-

Dan Corder 1:43:48 Yeah

Eugene Khoza 1:43:48 ... and distracted. 'Cause every time something happens that's big, something else happens in the pipeline that kind of distracts us from this whole thing. For example, as Black people, we are forced to always take the moral high ground when things happen. Apartheid, we are being told we must be emotionally mature.

Dan Corder 1:44:03 Mm.