What Now? With Trevor NoahTristan Harris Is Trying to Save Us From AI! - What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
70 min read · 14,445 words- 0:00 – 2:20
Bonus episode setup: Why bring Tristan Harris into the AI conversation
- TNTrevor Noah
Happy bonus episode day, everybody.
- SPSpeaker
Happy bonus episode day.
- TNTrevor Noah
Happy bonus episode day. Yeah. We are gonna have two episodes this week, and, um, I thought it would be, I thought it would be fun to, to, um, to do it for two reasons. One, um, because we won't have an episode next week because it is, of course, us celebrating the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And so we'll be-
- SPSpeaker
Come on, Preacher Trevor
- TNTrevor Noah
... taking a break for that.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Right? So, uh, merry Christmas to everyone, and if you do not celebrate Christmas, enjoy hell. Um-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Uh, for the rest of you, uh, we [laughs] are gonna be making this bonus episode. [laughs] Uh, we're gonna be making this bonus episode, and, um, you, you know why. It's because AI's been, um, a big part of the conversation over the past few weeks. We spoke to Sam Altman, the face of OpenAI, and, you know, what people think might be the future or the apocalypse. And we spoke to Janelle Monáe, which is what, a, a different conversation because obviously she's on the art side, but, you know, her love of technology and AI and, and androids, and it, it sort of gave it a different, um, bent or feeling. And I thought there's one more, one more person we could include in this conversation which would really round it out, and that's Tristan Harris. For people who don't know him, Tristan is, um, one of the faces you probably saw on The Social Dilemma. It was that documentary on Netflix that talked about how social media is designed, particularly designed to make us angry and hateful and crazy and just not do well with each other. And, and he explains it really well. You know, if you haven't watched it, go and watch it because I'm, I'm, I'm not doing it justice in, in a single sentence. But he's, he's worked on everything, you know? He, he, he made his bones in tech, grew up in the Bay Area. He, um, was, like, part of the reason Gmail exists, you know? He worked for Google for a very long time.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
And then, like, he, he basically, you know, quit the game in many ways, and now he's all about ethical AI, ethical social me- ethical everything. And he's, he's challenging us to ask the questions behind the incentives that create the products that dominates our lives. And so, uh, yeah, I th- I think he's gonna be an interesting conversation. Christiana, I know you've been, you've been jumping into AI. You've been-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... like, doing your, your full-on journalist research thing on this.
- 2:20 – 3:28
From AI skeptic to AI ‘in-the-middle’: Christiana’s concerns about AI critics
- SPSpeaker
I know. I find it so fascinating. Because of the writers' strike, I think impulsively I was a real AI skeptic.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, okay.
- SPSpeaker
Um, just because, like a lot of white-collar professionals, I'm like, "This thing's gonna take my job." [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Uh-huh.
- SPSpeaker
Then for a moment I was, like, an AI optimist. I was like, man, this thing has helped a paralyzed man walk. I think in terms of acce- accessibility, what it could do for, like, disabled and marginalized people is, like, game-changing. And now I'm landing in the middle, but I'm kind of skeptical of the people who are making out, a career out of being AI skeptics.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh.
- SPSpeaker
Do you understand? And so Trevor, I'd love for you to tell me more about, like, how, what you think of Tristan's thinking. 'Cause first it was social media, and now it's AI.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
He knows more about this technology than your average person, so there is definitely a legitimate claim to his concerns. But then sometimes-
- TNTrevor Noah
Right
- SPSpeaker
... out, as an outsider looking in, I'm like, well, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. Like, the, the, the... Like, it's happening. AI's happening. It's gone-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah
- SPSpeaker
... far quicker than we thought it would. And so I'm like, what is, what's to be gained from what he's, he's saying, and where is he coming from?
- TNTrevor Noah
So-
- SPSpeaker
I'd love to know more about that
- 3:28 – 4:58
Trevor’s framing: guilt, responsibility, and the window to steer AI before it’s entrenched
- TNTrevor Noah
... so, so it, it's, it's an, it's an interesting question because I can see where you're coming from. I've seen this in, in, in different fields. You'll find people who made their bones, made their money, made their name, made, made whatever they did in a certain industry, all of a sudden seem to turn against that industry and then become an evangelist the, in the opposite direction.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know? So I always think of, um, the Nobel Prize and how Nobel himself was like, he was guilty for the part he played in inventing dynamite. And he made a fortune from it, made an absolute fortune. And then he was like, "Damn, have I destroyed the world?" And because of that feeling and because of the guilt that he had, he then went, "I'm gonna set up the Nobel Prize to encourage people to try and create for good specifically. Let's get peace. Let's get technology, economics, all these things aiming in the right direction, and have a reward for it," which I think is very important, by the way. And so I think Tristan is one of those people. And to your point, he says the social media genie is completely out of the bottle. He, I don't think he thinks that for AI, and I think he may be correct in that AI still needs to be scaled in order for it to get to where it needs to get to, which is artificial general intelligence. So there is still a window of hope.
- SPSpeaker
It feels like I'm living in the time when electricity was invented.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That's honestly what AI feels like-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, and it is
- SPSpeaker
... to me right now.
- 4:58 – 6:55
Humor and unease: AI surveillance examples and ‘AI as Nigerian dad’ riff
- TNTrevor Noah
By the way, it is. Yeah, yeah. I think once it can murder, guys, we have to stop. We have to shut it off.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
We have to leave. We have to, like-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
That, that would be my question. If you were gonna ask a question, should I move- I love- ... to the woods? I love your naivete, Josh. Josh, in thinking-
- SPSpeaker
I mean, it already can, Josh. [laughs] It already can
- TNTrevor Noah
... in thinking that when it can murder, you're gonna be able to turn it off. That's adorable.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Have you seen how in China they're using AI in some schools to monitor students in the classroom and to grade them on how much attention they're paying-
- SPSpeaker
Oh my gosh
- TNTrevor Noah
... how tired they are or aren't? And it's amazing. You see the AI, like, analyzing the kids' faces, and it's giving them live scores. Like, this child, oh, they yawned. Oh, that child yawned four times. This child, their eyes closed.
- SPSpeaker
Oh my gosh.
- TNTrevor Noah
This child... And 'cause China's just trying to optimize for best, best, best, best, best. They're like, "This is how we're gonna do schooling."
- SPSpeaker
So the AIs are basically Nigerian dads, right? [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs] Heh, heh, heh.
- SPSpeaker
That's all it is. AI is my dad. You yawned.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, that's funny.
- SPSpeaker
You didn't finish your homework?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
That's, if, if it is that, w- we now, we, we have our built-in expert on, on how to deal with it. You, you will be the, at the forefront of helping us.
- SPSpeaker
I know. You have to call me. You have to call me.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, man. I lo- I love the idea that AI is actually Nigerian all along.
- THTristan Harris
[laughs] That's what it was
- TNTrevor Noah
... Yeah. It's just like a-
- THTristan Harris
That's what-
- TNTrevor Noah
... remake of Terminator.
- THTristan Harris
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
What we, what we thought it was and what it is.
- THTristan Harris
[laughs]
- 6:55 – 9:54
Harris’ core stance: not anti-tech—anti-business models that distort society
- TNTrevor Noah
You know, when I was, I was telling my friends who I was going to be chatting to, I said your name, and my friend was like, "I'm, I'm not sure who that is." And then I said, "Oh, well, he's, you know, he does a lot of work in, in the tech space, and you know, he's working on, you know, the ethics of AI, and he's working on a..." And I kept going, and then I said, "Oh, The Social Dilemma," and he's, "Oh, yeah, The Social Dilemma guy, The Social Dilemma guy." Is that, is that how people know you now?
- THTristan Harris
[laughs] Uh, I think that's the way that most people know our work now.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- THTristan Harris
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
That's, uh... Let, let's talk a little bit about you and this world. There are many people who may know you as, let's say, like a, a quote, unquote, "anti-social media/anti-tech guy". That, that's what I've noticed when, when, when people who don't know your history speak about you.
- THTristan Harris
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Would you consider yourself anti-tech or anti-social media?
- THTristan Harris
No. Not, no. Uh, I mean, social media as it has been designed until now, I think we are, uh, against those business models that created the warped and distorted society that we are now living in.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- THTristan Harris
Um, but I think people mistake, uh, our views, our, you know, speaking our in the sense of my organization, The Center for Humane Technology-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- THTristan Harris
... as being anti-technology when the opposite is true. You and I were just at an event, um, where my co-founder, Aza, spoke.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- THTristan Harris
Um, Aza and I started the center together. His dad started the Macintosh project at Apple. Uh, and that's a pretty optimistic view of what technology can be.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- THTristan Harris
Um, and that ethos actually brought Aza and I together, uh, to start it because we do have a vision of what humane technology can look like. Um, we are not on course for that right now. Uh, but both he and I grew up [laughs] I mean him very deeply so, with the Macintosh and the idea of a bicycle for your mind.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- THTristan Harris
That the technology-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- THTristan Harris
... could be a bicycle for your mind that helps you go further places and powers creativity. Um, that is the future that I wanna create-
- TNTrevor Noah
Right
- THTristan Harris
... for future children that I don't have yet, is technology that is actually in service of harmonizing with the ergonomics of what it means to be human. By ergonomics, I mean like this chair-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah
- THTristan Harris
... has, you know, it's not actually that ergonomic, but if it was-
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- THTristan Harris
... it would be resting nicely against my back, and it would be aligned with, you know, there's a musculature-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah
- THTristan Harris
... to how I work, and there's a difference between a chair that's aligned with that-
- TNTrevor Noah
Right
- THTristan Harris
... and a chair that gives you a backache-
- 9:54 – 14:37
Origin story and ‘attention as steering’: the illusion of control with phones
- TNTrevor Noah
I, I would love to know how you came to think like this, because your, your history and your genesis are very much almost in line with everybody else in tech in that way.
- THTristan Harris
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know, so you, you, you're born and raised in the Bay Area.
- THTristan Harris
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay. And, and then you studied at Stanford.
- THTristan Harris
Yep.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right? And so you, you're doing your, your master's in, in computer science, and you... I mean, you're pretty much stock standard. You even dropped out at some point.
- THTristan Harris
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
I mean, this is pretty much-
- THTristan Harris
The biography matches, uh-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes. It's like this, this is the move. This is what happens.
- THTristan Harris
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
And then, and then you get into tech, and then you started your company, and your company did so well that Google bought it, right? And you then were working at Google. You're part of the team. Are we working on, uh, on Gmail at the time?
- THTristan Harris
I was working on Gmail, yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay. So you're working, you're working on Gmail at the time. And then if, if my research serves me correctly-
- THTristan Harris
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
... you then go to Burning Man-
- THTristan Harris
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
... and you have this epiphany. You have, you have this realization. You come back with something.
- THTristan Harris
Oh, now the stereotypes are really on-
- TNTrevor Noah
It really is
- THTristan Harris
... full blast-
- TNTrevor Noah
It's great
- THTristan Harris
... aren't they?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, but this, but this part is interesting because you, you come back from Burning Man, and you write this, this manifesto essentially that goes, it goes viral within the company, which I love, by the way.
- THTristan Harris
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
And you essentially say to everybody at Google, "We need to be more responsible with how we create because it affects people's attention." Specifically, it was about attention and-
- THTristan Harris
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... you know, when I, when I was reading through that, I was, I was mesmerized because I was like, man, this is, this is hitting the nail on the head. You, you didn't talk about, um, how people feel or don't feel. You didn't talk about... It was, it was just about monopolizing people's attention.
- THTristan Harris
Yeah.
- 14:37 – 15:58
Design mechanics that hook us: ‘time well spent,’ Do Not Disturb, and social pressure
- THTristan Harris
Yes. And to your point that you just made, it also rewires social signaling, meaning, um, when you look at your phone, it makes people think you may not be paying attention to them.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes, yes.
- THTristan Harris
Or if you don't respond to a message, that you don't care about them-
- TNTrevor Noah
Uh-huh
- THTristan Harris
... or you're... But and, and that, those, um, social expectations, those beliefs about each other are formed through the design of how technology works.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- THTristan Harris
So a small example and a small contribution that we've made, uh, was one of my first TED Talks, and it was about time well spent, and it included this bit about, um, we have this all or nothing choice with we either connect to technology-
- TNTrevor Noah
Right
- THTristan Harris
... and we get the all-in-one, you know, drip feed of all of humanity's consciousness into our brains-
- TNTrevor Noah
Right, right, right
- THTristan Harris
... uh, or we turn off, and then we make everyone feel like we're disconnected, and we feel social pressure because we're not getting back to all those things.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- THTristan Harris
And the additional choice that we were missing was, like, the do not disturb mode, which is a bidirectional thing that when you go into notifications are silenced, I can now see that.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- THTristan Harris
Uh, Apple made their own choices in implementing that, but I happen to know that there's some reasons why some of the time well spent philosophy made its way into how iPhones work now.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, that's amazing.
- THTristan Harris
And that's an example of if you raise people's attention and awareness about, um, the failures of design that are currently leading to, you know, this dysfunction in social expectations-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- THTristan Harris
... or the pressure of feeling like you have to get back to people, you can make a-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- THTristan Harris
... small design choice, and it can, like, alleviate some of that pain. Your, the backache got a little bit less achy.
- 15:58 – 19:52
Infinite scroll and doomscrolling: convenience feature turned attention weapon
- TNTrevor Noah
Did you create anything, or have you been part of creating anything that you now regret in the world of tech?
- THTristan Harris
Um, no, my co-founder, Aza, invented infinite scroll. Um-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, boy.
- THTristan Harris
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Aza did that?
- THTristan Harris
Yes, but he, I wanna be clear, so the, when he invented it-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes
- THTristan Harris
... he thought, um, this is in the age of blog posts where-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, and just, just so we're all on the same page-
- THTristan Harris
Yeah, what is infinite scroll?
- TNTrevor Noah
... just what is infinite scroll? I, I, I mean, w- uh, we know what it, but what is, please... Oh, wow.
- THTristan Harris
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
I can't believe this. I just need a moment to breathe.
- THTristan Harris
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Please, please just, what is-
- THTristan Harris
It hits him too
- TNTrevor Noah
... what is infinite scroll?
- THTristan Harris
So infinite scroll is, uh, let me first state it, um, in the context that he invented it-
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay, go, go with that
- THTristan Harris
... so people don't think he's the evil guy.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay, got it.
- THTristan Harris
So clearly, um, first, uh, you know, go back 10, 10 years.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- THTristan Harris
You load a Google search results page, and you scroll to the bottom, and it says, "Oh, you're at page one of the results."
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes, yes.
- THTristan Harris
You should click to-
- TNTrevor Noah
Go to page two
- THTristan Harris
... go to page two.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- THTristan Harris
Or you read a blog post, and then you scroll to the bottom of the blog post-
- 19:52 – 23:01
Incentives over moral labels: why ‘good vs bad’ is the wrong question
- TNTrevor Noah
Well, that's, well, that's, that's beautiful then, because I mean, that word incentives, because I, I feel like it can be the umbrella for the entire conversation that you and I are gonna have.
- THTristan Harris
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know, because if we are to look at social media and whether people think it's good or bad, I think the mistake some people can make is starting off from that place.
- THTristan Harris
Correct.
- TNTrevor Noah
To go like, "Oh, is social media good? Is social media bad?" Some would say, "Well, Tristan, it's good. I mean, look at, look at people who have been able to voice their opinions-
- THTristan Harris
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... and marginalized groups who now are able to form community and, and, and connect with each other."
- THTristan Harris
Yep.
- TNTrevor Noah
Others may say the same inversely. They'll go, "It is bad, because you have these marginalized, terrible groups who have found a way to expand and have found a way to grow."
- THTristan Harris
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
"And now people monopolize our attention and they, you know, they manipulate young children, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera."
- THTristan Harris
Yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
So, so good or bad is almost, in a strange way, irrelevant, and what you're saying is if the social media companies are incentivized to make you feel bad, see bad, or react to bad, then they will feed you bad.
- THTristan Harris
I really appreciate you bringing up this point that, um, you know, is it good or is it bad? What age of a human being do you imagine when you think about, uh, someone asking you, "Is, you know, is this big thing good or is it bad?" Like, it's a kind of a, a younger developmental person, right?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes. Yes.
- THTristan Harris
And I, I want to name that I think part of what humanity has to go through, with AI especially, is it, it makes any ways that we have been showing up immaturely as inadequate to the situation. And I think one of the inadequate ways that we cannot, we no longer can afford to show up this way, is by asking is X good or is it bad? That is, that is-
- TNTrevor Noah
Not, not X Twitter, right?
- THTristan Harris
X, sorry, yes. [laughs] Not Twitter.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah.
- THTristan Harris
I meant, uh-
- TNTrevor Noah
You meant X as in like the mathematical X.
- THTristan Harris
Yes, the mathematical X of, you know, is it-
- TNTrevor Noah
Is Y good?
- THTristan Harris
Is Y good or is Y bad?
- TNTrevor Noah
Or is Y bad? [laughs]
- THTristan Harris
Is Z good or is Z bad? Um, we, so the, to your point, though, about incentives, um, social media still delivers lots of amazing goods to this day.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- THTristan Harris
Um, people who are getting, you know, economic livelihood by being creators and-
- TNTrevor Noah
Right
- THTristan Harris
... cancer survivors who are finding each other, and long-lost lovers who found each other on Facebook's recommended freeze feature.
- 23:01 – 25:10
Context collapse and the funhouse mirror: San Francisco as an algorithmic case study
- TNTrevor Noah
We'll be right back after this. [upbeat music] Let's look at the Bay Area.
- THTristan Harris
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Is, is the perfect example. Coming into San Francisco, everything I see on social media is just like it is Armageddon.
- THTristan Harris
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
People say to you, "Oh man, San Francisco, have you s- it's terrible right now."
- THTristan Harris
Right.
- TNTrevor Noah
And I would ask everyone, I go, "Have you been?" And they go, "No. No, I haven't been, but I've, I've seen it. I've seen it."
- THTristan Harris
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
And I go, "What have you seen?"
- THTristan Harris
Yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
And they go, "Man, it's, in the streets it's just chaos, and people are just robbing stores and, you know, and there's homeless people everywhere and, and people are fighting and robbing, and you can't even walk in the streets." And I go, "But you haven't been there."
- THTristan Harris
Right.
- TNTrevor Noah
And they go, "No." And I say, "Do you know someone from there?" And they're like, "No, but I've seen it."
- THTristan Harris
Right.
- TNTrevor Noah
And then you come to San Francisco It's sadder than you are led to believe, but it's not as dangerous and crazy as you, as you're led to believe.
- THTristan Harris
That's right.
- TNTrevor Noah
Because I, I find sadness is generally difficult to transmit digitally.
- THTristan Harris
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And it, and it's a lot, it's, it's a lot more nuanced as a feeling.
- THTristan Harris
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Whereas fear-
- THTristan Harris
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... and outrage are, are quick and easy feelings to shoot out.
- THTristan Harris
Those work really well for the social media algorithms.
- TNTrevor Noah
Exactly. Exactly. And so you look at that and you look at the Bay Area and just how exactly what you're saying-
- THTristan Harris
Right
- TNTrevor Noah
... has, has happened just in this little-
- THTristan Harris
That's right
- TNTrevor Noah
... microcosm.
- THTristan Harris
About itself. I mean-
- 25:10 – 34:17
How to change incentives: collective action, regulation, and ‘BridgeRank’ shared reality goals
- TNTrevor Noah
So, so, okay, so then let me ask you this. Is there a world where the incentive can change? And I, I don't mean like a magic wand world.
- THTristan Harris
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Like a, why would Google say, you know, let's say on the YouTube side, "We're not going to take you down rabbit holes-
- THTristan Harris
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... that, that hook you for longer." Why would anyone not do it? W- like, w- w- how, where would the incentives be shifted from?
- THTristan Harris
Well, so notice that you can't shift the incentives if you're the only actor, right? So if you're, if you're all competing for a finite resource of attention, and if I don't go for that attention, someone else is gonna go for it.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- THTristan Harris
So if, if YouTube, like, just make it concrete, if YouTube says, "We're gonna not addict young kids-"
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes
- THTristan Harris
... we're just gonna make sure it doesn't do autoplay, we're gonna make sure it doesn't recommend the most persuasive next video-
- TNTrevor Noah
Uh-huh
- THTristan Harris
... we're not gonna do YouTube Shorts because we don't wanna compete with TikTok 'cause-
- TNTrevor Noah
Exactly
- THTristan Harris
... it has, Shorts are really bad for people's brains, it hijacks dopamine, and we don't wanna play in that game," then YouTube just gradually becomes irrelevant, and TikTok takes over, and it takes over with that full maximization of human attention. So in other words, one actor doing the right thing just means they lose to the other guy that doesn't do the right thing.
- TNTrevor Noah
This is, you know what this, this reminds me of? It's like, um, whenever you watch those shows about, like, the drug industry. Like, the, and I mean drug drugs in the street, like, you know, drug dealing.
- THTristan Harris
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
And, and it became that thing. It's like one dealer cuts theirs, and they, you know, lace it with something else, and then give it a bit of a kick, and then they pass-
- THTristan Harris
That's right
- TNTrevor Noah
... and if you don't-
- THTristan Harris
That's right
- TNTrevor Noah
... you just get left behind.
- THTristan Harris
You just lose.
- TNTrevor Noah
People go like, "Oh, yours is not as addictive."
- THTristan Harris
That's right, and this is what we call the race to the bottom of the brainstem. That phrase has served us well because it really, I think, articulates that whoever doesn't do the dopamine beautification filters, infinite scroll, just loses to the guys that do.
- TNTrevor Noah
But so, so then, so then-
- THTristan Harris
But so then how do you change it?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- THTristan Harris
Okay.
- TNTrevor Noah
Can you change it?
- THTristan Harris
Yeah. Well, actually, we're on our way. Uh, now I know this is gonna sound really depressing to people, so I'm gonna pivot to some hope, uh, so that people can see some of the progress that we have made. Um, if people don't know the history, the way that, you know, we went from a world where everyone smoked on the streets to now no one smokes, I mean, very few people smoke-
- 34:17 – 36:18
Protecting kids and the ‘do unto your own children’ test
- THTristan Harris
"This is what you're gonna do." If you're affecting under 13 year olds, there could be a democratic deliberation saying, "Hey, you know, something that people like about what China's doing is they, um, at 10:00 PM to 7:00 in the morning, it's lights out on all social media."
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- THTristan Harris
It's just like opening hours and closing hours at CVS. Like it's closed.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, like, like even, um, alcohol.
- THTristan Harris
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know.
- THTristan Harris
Like alcohol.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- THTristan Harris
Yeah, exactly. And the thing-
- TNTrevor Noah
Liquor stores have, have hours and they-- in some states they go, it's not open on certain days and, and that's that.
- THTristan Harris
That's right. And what that does is it helps alleviate the social pressure dynamics for kids who no longer feel like, "Oh, if I don't keep staying up till 2:00 in the morning when my friends are still commenting-
- TNTrevor Noah
I'm going to be
- THTristan Harris
... I'm gonna be behind."
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- THTristan Harris
And now that isn't a solution. I think really we shouldn't have social media for under 18 year olds.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know, it's, it's interesting you say that. O- one of the, um, one of the telltale signs for me is always how do the makers of a product use the product?
- THTristan Harris
That's right.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know, that's, that's always been one of the simplest tools that, that, that I use for myself.
- THTristan Harris
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know, you see how many people in, in social media, all the CEOs and all, they go, their kids are not on social media.
- THTristan Harris
Right.
- TNTrevor Noah
When they have events or gatherings, they go-- They'll literally explicitly tell you, "Hey, no social media-
- THTristan Harris
Don't use. Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... please, and no." And you're like, "Whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on, hold on."
- THTristan Harris
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
"You're, you're telling me I am at an Instagram event-
- THTristan Harris
That's right
- TNTrevor Noah
... where they do not want me to Instagram?" You're like, "Wait, uh, ex-- so why?"
- THTristan Harris
If the people who ran the NFL don't wanna send their own kids to become football players because they know about the concussions-
- TNTrevor Noah
Essentially, that's-
- 36:18 – 40:09
AI becomes the new frontier: the arms race, ‘three laws of technology,’ and scaling to AGI
- TNTrevor Noah
Let's, let's, let's, um, let's change gears and talk about AI, because I, [laughs] this is how fast technology moves. I feel like the first time I spoke to you and the first time we had conversations about this, it was all just about social media, and that was really the, the biggest looming existential threat that we were facing as humanity. And now in the space of, I'm gonna say, like, a year tops, we are now staring down the barrel of what will inevitably be the technology that defines how humanity moves forward.
- THTristan Harris
That's right.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know? Because we are at the, the infancy stage of artificial intelligence, where right now it's still cute. You know? It's like, "Hey, um, you know, d- design me a birthday card-
- THTristan Harris
Yep
- TNTrevor Noah
... for my, for my kid's birthday," and you know? It's, it's cute. It's, it's, you know, "Make me an itinerary, five-day trip. I'm gonna be traveling." But it's gonna upend how people work. It's gonna upend how people think, how they communicate, how they... So AI right now.
- THTristan Harris
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
I mean, obviously one of the big stories is, you know, OpenAI and, and they are seen as the poster child because of ChatGPT, and many would argue that they, they fired the first shot.
- THTristan Harris
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right? They, they, they started the arms race.
- THTristan Harris
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
I-
- THTristan Harris
It's important that you're calling out the arms race, 'cause that is the issue both with social media and with AI, is that there's a race.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- THTristan Harris
If the technology confers power, it starts a race. We, we have these three laws of technology. First is when you create a new technology, you create a new set of responsibilities.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- THTristan Harris
Second rule of technology, when you create a new technology, if it confers power, meaning some people who use that technology get power over others, it will start a race.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- THTristan Harris
Third rule of technology, if you do not coordinate that race, it will end in tragedy. 'Cause we didn't coordinate the race for social media.
- TNTrevor Noah
Huh.
- THTristan Harris
Everyone's like, "Oh, d- you know, going deeper in the race to the bottom of the brainstem means that I, TikTok, get more power than Facebook, so I keep going deeper." And we didn't coordinate the race to the bottom of the brainstem-
- TNTrevor Noah
Huh
- THTristan Harris
... so we got the bottom of the brainstem and we got the dystopia that's at that destination. And the same thing here with AI is what is the race with OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, Microsoft, et cetera? It's not the race for attention, although that's still gonna exist, now supercharged-
- TNTrevor Noah
Right, right
- THTristan Harris
... with the second contact with AI. So we have to sort of name, that's a little island in the set of concerns-
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay
- THTristan Harris
... supercharging social media's problems, virtual boyfriends, girlfriends, um, you know, fake people, deepfakes, et cetera. But then what is the real race between OpenAI, Anthropic, and Google? Um, it's the race to scale their system to get to artificial general intelligence. They are racing to go as fast as possible to scale their model, to pump it up with more data and more compute, 'cause what people don't understand about the new AI that OpenAI-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- THTristan Harris
... is making-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- THTristan Harris
... that's so dangerous about it, 'cause they're like, "What's the big deal? It writes me an email for me-
- 40:09 – 45:15
Why the switch happened: transformers, ChatGPT shock, and the acceleration spiral
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay, so but let's, let's take a step back here and, and, and try and understand how we got here.
- THTristan Harris
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Everybody was working on AI in some way, shape, or form.
- THTristan Harris
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Gmail tries to know w- how to respond for you or what it should or shouldn't do. It, all of these things-
- THTristan Harris
That's right
- TNTrevor Noah
... existed. But then something switched.
- THTristan Harris
That's right.
- TNTrevor Noah
And it feels like the moment it switched was when ChatGPT put their AI out into the world.
- THTristan Harris
Yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
And from my just layman understanding of and watching it, it seemed like it, it created a panic, because then, then, like, you know, Google wanted to release theirs even though it didn't seem like it was ready, and they didn't say... They, they literally went from, in the space of a few weeks, saying, "We don't think this AI should be released because it is not ready-
- THTristan Harris
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... and we don't think it is good, and this is very irresponsible."
- THTristan Harris
Yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
And then within a few weeks they were like, "Here's ours," and it was out there.
- THTristan Harris
That's right.
- TNTrevor Noah
And then, and then Meta/Facebook, they released theirs, and they, n- not only that, they, it was, like, open source, and now people could, could tinker with it, and that really just let-
- THTristan Harris
Which is a huge problem. Yep.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, that just let the cat out of the bag.
- THTristan Harris
Yes, exactly. So this is exactly right. I wanna put one other dot on the timeline before-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes
- THTristan Harris
... ChatGPT.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- THTristan Harris
Um, it's really important. And if you remember the first Indiana Jones movie when Harrison Ford sort of swaps the gold thing for-
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- THTristan Harris
And it's the same weight.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- THTristan Harris
So there's, like, the... What's the kind of moment where-
- TNTrevor Noah
That pressure, the pressure pad thing that he-
- THTristan Harris
Yeah, the pressure pad thing.
- 45:15 – 55:08
From misuse to catastrophic risk: bio/weaponization, open-source insecurity, and jailbreak reality
- THTristan Harris
... sort of event. There have been other insights in science since then, that we have discovered things in other realms, chemistry, biology, et cetera, that could also wipe out the world. But we don't talk about them very often. As much as AI, when it automates science, can find the new climate change solutions, and it can find the new, um, so- cancer s- drug sort of finding solutions, it can also automate the discovery of things where only a single person could wipe out a large-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oof
- THTristan Harris
... number of people. So this is where-
- TNTrevor Noah
It, it could give one person outsized power.
- THTristan Harris
That's right. If you think about, like, like, so go back to the year 1800. Okay, now there's one person who's, like, disenfranchised, hates the world, and-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes
- THTristan Harris
... wants to destroy human- what's the maximum damage that one person could do in 1800?
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- THTristan Harris
Like, not that much.
- TNTrevor Noah
Not that much.
- THTristan Harris
1900, a little bit more.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- THTristan Harris
Maybe we have dynamite-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- THTristan Harris
... and explosive. You know, 1950, okay, we're getting there. But post-2024 AI-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- THTristan Harris
... and, um, the point is that we're on a trend line where the curve is that a smaller and smaller number of people who would use or misuse this technology could cause much more damage.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- THTristan Harris
So we're, we're left with this choice. It's frankly, it's a very uncomfortable choice. 'Cause what that leads some people to believe is you need a global surveillance state to prevent people from doing this horri- these horrible things, because now if a single person can press a button-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- THTristan Harris
... what do you do? Well, okay, I don't want a global surveillance state. I don't want to create that world. Yeah, I don't think you do either. Um, the alternative is humanity has to be wise enough to where you have to match the power you're handing out to the who's trusted to wield that power. Like, you know, we don't put bags of anthrax in Walmart and say everybody can have this so they can do their own research on anthrax.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- THTristan Harris
We don't put rocket launchers in Walmart and say anybody can buy this, right? We, we put guns, but you have to have a license, and you have to do-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
- THTristan Harris
... a background check. Um, but, you know, the world would be... D- how would the world have looked if we just put rocket launchers in Walmart? Like, instead of the mass shootings, you'd have someone who's using rocket launchers.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. And, and that-
- THTristan Harris
And-
- TNTrevor Noah
... one, and that one instance-
- THTristan Harris
Would cause a lot of other things to happen
- TNTrevor Noah
... would cause so much damage.
- 55:08 – 1:02:19
A governance model for ‘prudent optimism’: aviation-style safety, independent kill switches, and racing to safety
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- THTristan Harris
No. But forever chemicals is, are bad for us-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes
- THTristan Harris
... and they're irreversible.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- THTristan Harris
They don't biodegrade, and they cause cancer and endocrine disruptions.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- THTristan Harris
So we wanna make sure that we lock down, um, how chemistry happens in the world-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- THTristan Harris
... so that we don't give everybody the ability to make forever chemicals. We don't have incentives in business models, like Teflon, that allow them to keep making forever chemicals-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- THTristan Harris
... and plastics that can... So we just need to change the incentives. We don't wanna say all AI is bad. I, by the way, my co-founder, Aza, um, he has a AI project called the Earth Species Project, where he-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, it's fascinating. Yeah.
- THTristan Harris
Yeah, you saw his-
- TNTrevor Noah
I love this. Yeah
- THTristan Harris
... you saw his presentation, right? He's using AI to translate animal communication and to be able to literally have humans be able to do bidirectional communication-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- THTristan Harris
... with whales and-
- TNTrevor Noah
Which, by the way, is, is also terrifying. Like, just the idea. The, there are two things I think about this is, like, one, if we're able to speak to animals, how will it affect our relationship with animals? Because we live in a world now where we think, uh, you know, as nice as we are, we're like, "Oh, yeah, the animals are d-..." Once the animal, like, says to us, and I mean this, like, it's partly a joke, but it's partly true, is like, what happens when we can completely understand animals, and then the animals say-
- THTristan Harris
They're like, "Please stop hurting us."
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, or even they go like, "Hey, this is our land, and you stole it from us."
- THTristan Harris
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
"And this was-
- THTristan Harris
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... this part of the forest was ours."
- THTristan Harris
That's right.
- TNTrevor Noah
"And so we, we want legal recourse. We just didn't know how to say this to you."
- THTristan Harris
That's right.
- TNTrevor Noah
"And we wanna take you to court." Like, can a troop of monkeys win in a court case against, like, you know, some company that's def- you know, deforesting the, the-
- THTristan Harris
Yeah
Episode duration: 1:02:22
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Transcript of episode YebJc_THwio
