What Now? With Trevor NoahWhy Google, Apple & Big Tech Keep Making Everything Worse | Cory Doctorow and Trevor Noah
CHAPTERS
- 0:04 – 2:20
Elon Musk’s “scourge on humanity” moment: unions, utopian socialists, and thin skin
Trevor asks Cory Doctorow about Elon Musk calling him “a scourge on humanity,” prompting a story about Musk identifying with sci‑fi author Iain (M.) Banks. Cory explains why he challenged Musk’s “utopian socialist” self-image—specifically on unions—and how that exchange ended with a block.
- •Cory’s background as a sci‑fi novelist and tech critic
- •Why Iain Banks’ politics (trade unionist) matter to the comparison
- •Cory’s critique of Musk as a union buster
- •Musk’s interpretation of fiction vs real-world labor issues
- •The exchange culminating in Musk blocking Cory
- 2:20 – 5:37
Why “enshittification” resonates: naming the feeling that everything is getting worse
Trevor jokes about inventing “shittification,” while Cory explains why multiple people coin similar terms when an idea is in the zeitgeist. They broaden the idea beyond tech—food portions, appliance longevity, airline comfort—and frame it as a shared societal experience, not personal crankiness.
- •Coinages emerge when a phenomenon becomes widely felt
- •Enshittification as an emotional/atavistic way to describe tech frustration
- •Examples: shrinking value, planned obsolescence, vanishing guarantees
- •People gaslight themselves into thinking they’re just being curmudgeonly
- •The term helps connect individual annoyances to systemic causes
- 5:37 – 7:12
Policy—not personality—drives the decline: the rules that enable “enshittagenic” outcomes
Cory argues the worsening of products and services isn’t mainly about bad CEOs or careless consumers, but about policy choices that permit extraction. He frames the problem as reversible: specific laws and enforcement decisions created the conditions for platforms to degrade quality and lock users in.
- •Moving from individual blame to structural explanation
- •“This outcome was foreseeable—and foreseen” by advocates
- •Policy choices can be changed; we’re not prisoners of economics
- •The concept of “enshittagenic” policy: rules that reward the worst ideas
- •Political accountability vs fatalism
- 7:12 – 9:25
DMCA 1201 and “felony contempt of business model”: how anti-circumvention blocks repair
The conversation dives into DMCA Section 1201, which can criminalize bypassing “access controls” even for legitimate repairs and modifications. Cory explains parts pairing and encryption in cars, appliances, medical devices, and how state right-to-repair laws struggle against federal preemption.
- •DMCA 1201: bypassing access controls can become a felony
- •Companies can add access controls to create new crimes
- •Parts pairing: devices refuse to work with third-party components
- •Cars’ encrypted diagnostics as a core right-to-repair battleground
- •Oregon’s approach: banning sale of devices requiring parts pairing
- 9:25 – 11:40
When lock-in kills people: Medtronic ventilators, lockdown repairs, and outlaw “unlockers”
Cory describes how parts pairing in Medtronic ventilators prevented hospitals from swapping working parts during COVID lockdowns. He highlights a Polish technician who built and shipped improvised ventilator unlockers—risking prosecution—illustrating how IP and device-control laws can turn life-saving fixes into crimes.
- •Ventilator parts pairing blocking field repairs during COVID
- •Supply chain/travel shutdowns making official service impossible
- •Underground repair tools (Raspberry Pi-style) to restore functionality
- •How similar anti-circumvention laws spread globally via trade pressure
- •The moral hazard of criminalizing “disenshittification”
- 11:40 – 14:23
Booby-trapped infrastructure: Newag trains that brick themselves after third-party repairs
A Polish train manufacturer allegedly sabotaged trains to disable them when serviced outside approved depots, extracting high maintenance fees. Cory explains how security researchers uncovered geofenced “kill switches,” and how legal threats targeted both researchers and even a member of parliament.
- •Trains disabling themselves when entering unauthorized maintenance yards
- •Remote diagnostics fees as a revenue extraction strategy
- •Firmware reverse engineering by Dragon Sector researchers
- •Geofence errors causing failures on mainline track segments
- •Manufacturer lawsuits and intimidation tactics
- 14:23 – 17:02
How DMCA-style rules were made: the “end run around Congress” and WIPO treaty pressure
Cory recounts how anti-circumvention became law: Clinton-era IP policy battles, Al Gore initially rejecting the idea, and Bruce Lehman pushing it through WIPO treaties to force Congress’ hand. The segment links domestic policy to global trade leverage that exports restrictive IP frameworks worldwide.
- •National Information Infrastructure hearings and early internet governance
- •Al Gore’s refusal and Bruce Lehman’s WIPO workaround
- •WIPO Internet Treaties as a mechanism to compel national laws
- •Trade policy used to export U.S.-style restrictions internationally
- •Coalitions inside administrations and contradictory governance outcomes
- 17:02 – 22:11
You don’t own your digital purchases: licenses, DRM, and the “Darth Vader MBA”
Trevor’s PlayStation example leads into Cory’s broader point: digital goods are increasingly licenses that can be revoked or downgraded remotely. Cory argues products with DRM can’t be reviewed like normal goods because their features can be removed after purchase without recourse.
- •From ownership to revocable licenses (games, ebooks, software)
- •“I’m altering the deal” as a business model
- •DRM enables remote downgrades and unpredictable feature loss
- •Consumer Reports/product reviews fail when products can change post-sale
- •Terms-of-service power imbalance: one-sided deal rewriting
- 22:11 – 26:06
Did Google intentionally make Search worse? Inside memos, ad incentives, and monopoly insulation
Cory describes factional battles at Google revealed through antitrust discovery, arguing revenue pressure and market dominance encouraged deliberate quality degradation. He explains how forcing extra searches yields more ads, and why monopoly power—like buying default placement—lets the worst internal ideas win.
- •Discovery in antitrust cases exposing decision-making
- •The 2019 growth stall: 90% share leaves little room to expand
- •Incentive to worsen search so users query multiple times
- •Turning off helpful features (stemming, spellcheck, context ranking)
- •Default deals and “shelf space” purchases reduce competitive discipline
- 26:06 – 34:40
Why competition matters: from spaza shops to Uber, and the accountability that disappears
Trevor and Cory translate antitrust into everyday terms: competition keeps prices and quality in check, while monopolies enable higher prices and worse products. Examples include corner stores, counterfeit goods, Uber’s early subsidies then price hikes, and monopolization rippling into social anger.
- •Competition as price/quality discipline and accountability mechanism
- •How consolidation enables counterfeit/low-quality products to persist
- •Uber’s playbook: undercut, eliminate rivals, then raise prices
- •Monopoly as a societal “fault line” driving diffuse public anger
- •Why ‘market choice’ collapses when alternatives disappear
- 34:40 – 57:59
Apple’s 30% App Store “tax”: security, control, and the problem of Apple being the threat
They debate Apple’s 30% cut and the convenience/security Apple provides versus the lack of user recourse when Apple acts in its own interest. Cory argues the real issue is the illegality of alternatives (payments, apps, repair), and shows how Apple can use its gatekeeping power selectively—against competitors, dissidents, or at governments’ demands.
- •30% fee as a massive profit engine and ‘tax on the digital economy’
- •Closed platforms: adding alternative payments/installs framed as illegal
- •Apple’s privacy move vs Facebook, while expanding its own ad tracking
- •China compliance: removal of privacy tools and iCloud backdoors
- •App rejection/censorship power and political pressure dynamics
- 57:59 – 1:15:18
Consumers can’t “shop hard” their way out: real boycotts, political action, and regulating bigness
Eugene raises consumer helplessness; Cory rejects the “vote with your wallet” model and contrasts it with organized boycotts and strikes. The conversation turns to the need for enforceable rules, explaining how corporate size dictates the required size/power of government oversight.
- •Boycotts vs ‘shopping differently’: organization, solidarity, tactics
- •Why ‘wallet voting’ benefits billionaires with outsized purchasing power
- •The need for a referee stronger than the players (competition enforcement)
- •“Small government requires smaller corporations” argument
- •Local vs national responsiveness and where leverage still exists
- 1:15:18 – 1:28:00
Seeds, farming, and corporate control: IP treaties, Monsanto/Bayer enforcement, and debt traps
Trevor connects monopoly power to agriculture and survival: patented seeds, genetic lineage claims, and enforcement against even accidental cross-pollination. Cory expands into how international IP obligations drive this, and they discuss farmer debt cycles and how foundational inputs become monopolized choke points.
- •Patents over seed genetics and enforcement against small farmers
- •Cross-pollination cases and government-backed IP enforcement
- •Global trade/IP rules constraining domestic choices
- •Rising input costs contributing to farmer crises (incl. India)
- •Debt as a structural feature of agriculture, historically managed via jubilees
- 1:28:00 – 1:37:41
Monopoly isn’t just a board game: robber barons, Standard Oil, and breaking up concentrated power
Using Monopoly as a metaphor, they trace antitrust history from the Gilded Age to Standard Oil and Ida Tarbell’s reporting that mobilized public outrage. Cory argues this isn’t lost knowledge—societies have successfully dismantled monopolies before, and can do so again.
- •Monopoly’s real origin as a teaching tool (and its contested history)
- •Trusts, cartels, and why antitrust emerged in the first place
- •Ida Tarbell’s exposé as a catalyst for breaking up Standard Oil
- •The ‘curse of bigness’ and internal dysfunction in mega-firms
- •Antitrust as a proven, repeatable policy tool—not a fantasy
- 1:37:41 – 1:52:52
Is there reason for hope? A new coalition, geopolitical shocks, and how to get involved
Cory outlines why he’s more hopeful now: converging forces—entrepreneurs seeking opportunity, technologists seeking purpose, and national-security concerns about U.S.-controlled infrastructure. He distinguishes hope from optimism, then ends with concrete suggestions: join organizations like EFF, engage locally, and build collective political power.
- •A rare coalition: investors + technologists + digital-rights advocates
- •Geopolitical wake-up calls: account shutdowns, remote bricking, cloud leverage
- •Vision of a better internet: open, auditable, interoperable systems
- •Hope vs optimism/pessimism: action-driven progress up a gradient
- •Calls to action: unions, local politics, and supporting EFF
