Wringing in the New Year | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

Trevor Noah 0:00 Welcome to What Now?, another episode of the podcast, where this time I'm in South Africa. And if you've listened to enough of the podcast, you will know that when I'm in South Africa that means I'm with my people. And when I'm with my people, we create different episodes. On one of the first ones I did, I did, uh, for my 40th birthday, was Anele Mdoda, a good friend of mine. She's a broadcaster, she is, uh, an executive producer, an all-around media mogul, and most importantly, a super mom. And my other friend, Sizwe Dhlomo. He's a TV presenter, a radio host, a business person in economics. I think he has a degree in some... He studies a lot. Whatever. The point is, uh, he's a friend, and we're gonna be chatting together. Disclaimer for everyone who listens, these are So- South Africans, um, including myself, so we're gonna talk like South Africans. And, um, yeah, whatever happens happens because when my friends and I do a podcast, we try and make it as informal as possible. So if you're looking for, like, the dictionary definition of, like, a simple podcast, you came to the wrong place. Scroll to the next one in your feed now and, and enjoy that. But if you're looking for, like, an honest get-together of three human beings who love, respect, and fight with each other, then you've come to the right place. Welcome to What Now? This is What Now? With Trevor Noah.

Anele Mdoda 1:31 One, two, three, four, I declare a thumb war. One, two, three.

Trevor Noah 1:35 No, that sounds great.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:36 I think the lighting's better.

Trevor Noah 1:37 This sounds great. We hearing nothing.

Anele Mdoda 1:39 Mm. You even put sound thingies.

Trevor Noah 1:41 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 1:43 You, your face went, "Bitch, who do you think I am?"

Trevor Noah 1:45 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:48 I hope no one-

Trevor Noah 1:48 Oh, man.

Anele Mdoda 1:49 You look at me like, "Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 1:51 Yeah. This, this is who I is."

Trevor Noah 1:55 Oh. Oh, that is so funny.

Anele Mdoda 1:56 真 死 了 .

Trevor Noah 1:57 I am.

Anele Mdoda 1:57 "Bitch, who do you think I am?" Like.

Trevor Noah 1:59 So welcome, guys. Happy New Year.

Anele Mdoda 2:01 Happy New Year.

Trevor Noah 2:01 Can you still say Happy New Year?

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:03 Yeah, dude, of course.

Anele Mdoda 2:04 Until when?

Trevor Noah 2:04 What do you mean? Until... Okay, what's your time, what's your cutoff?

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:07 I mean, you know.

Anele Mdoda 2:08 Valentine's Day.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:08 It depends how well I know you.

Trevor Noah 2:09 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:10 It also, it depends how well I know you.

Trevor Noah 2:11 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 2:11 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:12 So with you guys, it's like, okay, you're pushing it now. But-

Trevor Noah 2:15 Oh, so we, so we are at the cusp.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:16 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 2:17 All right.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:17 I don't mind that.

Anele Mdoda 2:17 People you're close to, you should have said Happy New Year on the 1st of Jan.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:19 100%.

Anele Mdoda 2:19 Otherwise we're not close.

Trevor Noah 2:21 I've never thought of, like, a, a scale, like a gradient for when you can say-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:24 Everything is on a spectrum, bro.

Trevor Noah 2:26 Yeah. You, you-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:26 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 2:27 You're the, you're truly a math guy for everything. Sizwe's got, like, a graph for everything. The X axis is friendship time, then the Y axis is-

Anele Mdoda 2:34 But remember, uh, Sizwe didn't have friends, he's got cousins. We, we are the first friends in Sizwe's life.

Trevor Noah 2:39 Oh, that's true, actually.

Anele Mdoda 2:40 Please, let's remember this.

Trevor Noah 2:41 No, so happy, Happy New Year, guys.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:42 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 2:42 Happy New Year.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:44 Oh, that's funny.

Trevor Noah 2:45 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:46 Well, Happy New Year to you too.

Trevor Noah 2:48 Yeah, man.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:48 Stranger.

Trevor Noah 2:49 What do you mean, stranger?

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:50 I can s- you said, if you're a friend you should have said Happy New Year-

Trevor Noah 2:53 Wow.

Anele Mdoda 2:54 Ah.

Trevor Noah 2:54 Oh, wow. Okay.

Anele Mdoda 2:55 Oh, you came back with that one, didn't you?

Trevor Noah 2:57 Okay. All right. All right. At least you're on form. We, we're in the mix. I think differently

Trevor Noah 3:02 about the conversations we're gonna have.

Anele Mdoda 3:03 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 3:04 Because I enjoy delving into your minds as friends, but also as problem solvers. And then I find sometimes when we have these conversations, like the, the last one we did on the podcast, people were just like, "Oh yeah, that was an interesting conversation, and you guys, your friendship..." And what I realize is friendship is almost the, the cooking apparatus that we use to figure things out.

Sizwe Dhlomo 3:26 Mm.

Anele Mdoda 3:26 Mm.

Trevor Noah 3:26 Does that make sense?

Anele Mdoda 3:27 I get you.

Trevor Noah 3:27 'Cause everyone can have a conversation, but I find when you have a conversation with your people, there are extra ingredients and extra tools that you have, namely your friendship, that defines some of the conversation that you can't get with a stranger.

Anele Mdoda 3:39 I think it's good to have a conversation with your friends because we can say, "Ah, ah, don't say that one in public." [laughs]

Trevor Noah 3:44 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 3:45 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 3:46 Keep that one here. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 3:47 No, wait, do you think that's still a thing?

Anele Mdoda 3:49 Yes.

Sizwe Dhlomo 3:49 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 3:49 You guys do to us-

Trevor Noah 3:50 Oh, no, no

Anele Mdoda 3:51 ... we guys do it all the time

Trevor Noah 3:51 ... wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, no, no. But I... And this is an honest question.

Anele Mdoda 3:53 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 3:55 In fact, this is a great question to, to kick us off, 'cause, 'cause the, the, the, the conversation I wanted to have with you was, what are you worried about-

Anele Mdoda 4:01 Mm

Trevor Noah 4:01 ... going into the new year moving forward, right? 'Cause a lot of people have, like, a positive outlook.

Sizwe Dhlomo 4:07 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 4:07 But I'll start with that, funny enough.

Anele Mdoda 4:09 Mm.

Trevor Noah 4:10 Do you think canceling is still a thing? I think it's finished.

Anele Mdoda 4:14 I think the attempt to cancel is still there, and the fact that there could be an attempt to cancel you means that you could still be canceled, because you could be ducking and diving and catch one stray that does cancel you. So canceling is still a thing. This is why it is important to ask your friends first. They call them WhatsApp conversations.

Trevor Noah 4:29 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 4:30 You know, sometimes, sometimes you'll tweet something or put it on X, or you'll put it on Instagram, and someone will be like, "Hey, yeah, yeah, first start with your friends with that one."

Trevor Noah 4:37 Test that out and then-

Anele Mdoda 4:37 Yeah. It's, I think it's definitely still a thing.

Trevor Noah 4:40 I don't know.

Anele Mdoda 4:41 'Cause guys, if you, if you lose 10% of your income, it's still 10% of your income that you've lost.

Trevor Noah 4:45 Oh.

Anele Mdoda 4:46 Do you know what I'm saying?

Trevor Noah 4:47 You, so you're, you're looking at even, like, micro-cancellations.

Anele Mdoda 4:49 Yes.

Trevor Noah 4:49 You're looking at, like... Yeah. Erosion cancellations.

Anele Mdoda 4:53 Yes. [laughs] Like, you know-

Trevor Noah 4:54 Oh, I was just talking about, like, "You're canceled." It feels like it's finished.

Anele Mdoda 4:59 Ooh.

Trevor Noah 5:00 Like, it feels like we were at a peak.

Sizwe Dhlomo 5:02 So here's the thing. If I'm using Anele's departure points, right, then I don't necessarily wanna take it to cancellation and loss of income. I would just look at it as just how humans interact. And the first thing is some people don't know who they are. That's the first thing.

Trevor Noah 5:22 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 5:22 Then other people know who they are, but they're uncomfortable with who they are.

Trevor Noah 5:28 Okay. Oh, damn.

Sizwe Dhlomo 5:29 So now when you have a conversation, there are certain things that they wanna hold back, specifically when they're with strangers, 'cause they don't want the strangers to gain insights to the part that they're uncomfortable with.

Trevor Noah 5:39 Like their racism or xenophobia.

Sizwe Dhlomo 5:41 All of that.

Anele Mdoda 5:42 Mm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 5:42 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 5:42 Okay.

Anele Mdoda 5:42 Mm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 5:42 And it could be anything. Maybe you're a freak and you're just like, "Uh, too much."

Trevor Noah 5:46 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 5:47 Now, when you're speaking to your friends-

Trevor Noah 5:47 So your friends should know you're a freak

Sizwe Dhlomo 5:48 ... now, your friends already know. Like-

Anele Mdoda 5:51 At least one of your friends

Sizwe Dhlomo 5:52 ... there's, there's nothing, there's nothing here-

Trevor Noah 5:54 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 5:54 ... there's, there's nothing here that I can say that can shock you guys.

Trevor Noah 5:56 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 5:56 Yeah. At least one of your friends, in, in the event that you die in a dodgy place-

Sizwe Dhlomo 6:00 Yeah

Anele Mdoda 6:00 ... one of us must be like, "Yeah, well."

Sizwe Dhlomo 6:02 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 6:02 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 6:02 So now-

Trevor Noah 6:03 I knew they went there.

Anele Mdoda 6:04 Ex- exactly.

Trevor Noah 6:04 I knew he frequented-

Sizwe Dhlomo 6:06 You see?

Anele Mdoda 6:06 [laughs] A freak

Sizwe Dhlomo 6:07 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 6:08 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 6:08 So now we have those conversations, then you go, "Okay, okay, okay." Tone it back a little bit. And a- again, it's not because you fear being canceled, it's just, again, there are certain things that are just appropriate and others that are inappropriate.

Anele Mdoda 6:19 Mm-hmm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 6:20 That's all it is.

Anele Mdoda 6:20 Things that are appropriate to air in public and things that are inappropriate.

Sizwe Dhlomo 6:23 Yes.

Anele Mdoda 6:23 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 6:23 You get, like, inner thoughts and outer thoughts.

Anele Mdoda 6:25 Yes.

Trevor Noah 6:26 Okay.

Anele Mdoda 6:26 I agree with that.

Trevor Noah 6:27 I like how you said this like you studied it in a textbook. You-

Sizwe Dhlomo 6:29 It most likely did come from a textbook

Trevor Noah 6:31 ... you, you're so robotic in your thinking

Sizwe Dhlomo 6:32 ... a sociology textbook.

Trevor Noah 6:32 Yeah, no, that's what I mean. But you're so robotic in your thinking that it really s- sounds... Like, literally the way you said that. There are inner thoughts-

Anele Mdoda 6:39 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 6:39 ... and there are outer thoughts. Humans only do inner thoughts inside.

Anele Mdoda 6:43 He been AI. He been AI.

Trevor Noah 6:43 No, he's, you've been AI the whole time.

Anele Mdoda 6:45 He been AI.

Trevor Noah 6:45 You really have. All right. So w- why don't we go around. We'll first... I, I want the, the high level of what you, what you're worried about for the year, you know, as we go into the future. And by the way, it's not only even f- just for the year, it's rather what you're most concerned about at the beginning of the year-

Anele Mdoda 7:00 Hmm

Trevor Noah 7:00 ... that you think may be a thing. 'Cause you know, like, every year has a different feeling.

Anele Mdoda 7:03 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 7:03 Right?

Anele Mdoda 7:04 So I have two. Do you want me to give you the two now, or is it one round, around and then one?

Trevor Noah 7:08 No, no, give, give, give us the two now.

Anele Mdoda 7:09 Okay. So-

Trevor Noah 7:09 And then I wanna hear Sizzy's and then I'll g- I'll give you mine, and then we'll, we'll see where we can go.

Anele Mdoda 7:12 The first one is my son's turning 10 this year.

Trevor Noah 7:15 Okay.

Anele Mdoda 7:15 And he's reaching the part of his life where he no longer looks inside the home for role models and who to mimic himself on.

Trevor Noah 7:23 Oh.

Anele Mdoda 7:23 He's going to look externally.

Trevor Noah 7:25 Okay.

Anele Mdoda 7:25 And this wasn't something that was, you know, on, you know, top of my mind until we went on holiday and he made a friend, a friend with a discipline prob- problem [laughs]

Trevor Noah 7:33 Oh

Anele Mdoda 7:33 ... that by the end of the holiday I had to say to him, "Give me your phone. Did you add this k- this boy's number?" I said, "Delete him. Block him. We are not gonna be friends with him," type of thing. And then it had me thinking that, you know, we're at a point now where I just have to make sure that his self-esteem is so high-

Trevor Noah 7:50 Wow

Anele Mdoda 7:50 ... and his confidence-

Trevor Noah 7:51 Okay

Anele Mdoda 7:52 ... is so unshakable that things like that don't impress him. He has to remember how he was raised at home.

Trevor Noah 7:58 I love this. Don't, don't say more on it.

Anele Mdoda 7:59 Okay.

Trevor Noah 7:59 Don't say more on it.

Anele Mdoda 8:00 Okay.

Trevor Noah 8:00 Okay. So the problem, we got the problem.

Anele Mdoda 8:01 Okay.

Trevor Noah 8:01 This, this is all the worry.

Anele Mdoda 8:03 Yes, the worry.

Trevor Noah 8:03 All right. What's your second worry?

Anele Mdoda 8:05 Last year we had a Christmas party, right? And everybody had to stand up and say what they're grateful for.

Trevor Noah 8:10 Yes.

Anele Mdoda 8:11 Obviously people are grateful for, you know, work and, you know, good relationships and, you know, being financially sound.

Trevor Noah 8:18 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 8:18 Somebody stood up and said that he is grateful for health. He, out of 60 people, he's the only one who said that. And it got a lot of us thinking that, you know, we're at a place where anything could be something. Like right now, I have an issue with my shoulder, and I'm so scared [laughs] to go and check it out.

Trevor Noah 8:37 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 8:38 Because I'm so scared they're gonna say something like, "Oh, you've got six months."

Trevor Noah 8:41 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 8:42 I'm like, "No. I've got things to do. I can't have six months." And I promise you, my health is something that is just starting to appear in my list of things that I worry about-

Trevor Noah 8:55 That you actually think about

Anele Mdoda 8:55 ... a lot more than it did. Because sooner or later, you know, you have to come to terms that you're not immortal. You're not going to be around here for long, you know?

Trevor Noah 9:03 Damn-

Anele Mdoda 9:03 And, yeah

Trevor Noah 9:03 ... these are very... Okay. These are existential worries in different ways. Siz, what are you worried about?

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:09 So this year per se, not too much. Last year I was worried about maybe the possibility of World War III. I don't think that's gonna happen now.

Trevor Noah 9:17 Oh, so now it's ended for you?

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:18 Yeah, it's not gonna happen now.

Trevor Noah 9:19 Wow.

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:20 They, these guys fumbled. They fooballed the bag.

Trevor Noah 9:22 What? They fumbled the World War III?

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:23 They fumbled the opportunity to, to start World War III.

Trevor Noah 9:25 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 9:26 Is it Ukraine and Russia?

Trevor Noah 9:27 [laughs] Did somebody say it like that?

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:28 No, all of them.

Trevor Noah 9:28 This guy just said-

Anele Mdoda 9:29 Every- everybody was involved

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:31 ... Israel, the US.

Trevor Noah 9:31 They fumbled the opportunity to start World War III.

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:33 They fooballed the bag.

Trevor Noah 9:35 Damn.

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:35 So I'm happy now.

Trevor Noah 9:36 So you're no longer worried about World War III.

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:37 So I'm happy.

Trevor Noah 9:38 I mean, that's a great way to start. Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:39 But in the short to midterm, I am worried about the type of world that my kids will grow up in.

Trevor Noah 9:47 You've got kids?

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:49 In theory.

Trevor Noah 9:49 Okay. All right.

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:50 Yes. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 9:51 You never, guys, you never know. Your friends can now, like-

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:54 Yeah

Trevor Noah 9:54 ... announce things.

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:54 So, so, and it's more to what Anele was talking about as well, right? Because you can do everything in your power-

Trevor Noah 10:01 Mm

Sizwe Dhlomo 10:02 ... to protect your ch- your children and those that you love within the ambit of your circle, but then they need to exist within a community, right?

Trevor Noah 10:07 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 10:07 And when they go out, hey, man-

Anele Mdoda 10:10 Anything

Sizwe Dhlomo 10:10 ... I'm seeing that we're just getting too liberal right now, and some of those things are gonna come back to bite us.

Trevor Noah 10:15 Okay. I like this. All right, great. So Anele's worry is your son is now at an age where he's looking externally for role models.

Anele Mdoda 10:23 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 10:24 Second thing you're worried about is you're at an age where-

Anele Mdoda 10:26 Anything is anything

Trevor Noah 10:27 ... anything internal-

Anele Mdoda 10:28 [laughs] Yeah, is something

Trevor Noah 10:29 ... is something.

Anele Mdoda 10:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 10:30 Okay. Sizwe, no longer worried about World War III, huhe, but worried about the world that his children will live in, 'cause now there'll be a world.

Anele Mdoda 10:37 Mm.

Trevor Noah 10:37 So now you've got different problems. Okay, cool. Um, the thing I'm worried about, maybe it touches a little bit on what you're saying, but I worry that the, um... I worry that the global experiment has failed or is failing.

Anele Mdoda 10:50 What's the global experiment?

Trevor Noah 10:51 So I think for a long time we were seduced by this idea that the whole world could come together as one.

Sizwe Dhlomo 11:02 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 11:02 And I think a lot of it was, a lot of it was sold through the lens of trade.

Anele Mdoda 11:07 Okay.

Trevor Noah 11:07 Do you know what I mean?

Anele Mdoda 11:08 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 11:08 We've always traded, don't get me wrong.

Anele Mdoda 11:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 11:09 We've always traded. But a lot of it was sold through the lens of trade. So, like, the Euro Union, you know? It's like, ah, and then BRICS, Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa.

Sizwe Dhlomo 11:17 Mm.

Trevor Noah 11:17 It's like, ah, these blocks that have all come together. And so Europe at some point was like, "We don't have a border," you know?

Anele Mdoda 11:23 Ah.

Trevor Noah 11:23 "If you are European, you can go everywhere in Europe." Yeah, yeah. I think that that is starting to fail because, yeah, I, I don't think we thought far ahead enough, or I don't know if we-

Anele Mdoda 11:34 Mm

Trevor Noah 11:35 ... you know, crossed all the T's and dotted... 'Cause we also never did it.

Anele Mdoda 11:38 Did you always believe in it?

Trevor Noah 11:39 I, I was just told it. I was too young to, like, believe or not believe.

Sizwe Dhlomo 11:42 I, I believed in it.

Trevor Noah 11:43 Oh, you did believe in it?

Sizwe Dhlomo 11:45 But I'll tell you, I don't think this is anything new. If anything, I just think we need more perspective. Because if you go into history and just look at how each civilization has a lifespan, it usually ends like this.

Trevor Noah 12:04 Yeah, but that's what I'm-

Sizwe Dhlomo 12:05 So-

Trevor Noah 12:05 You were just now talking about my worry.

Sizwe Dhlomo 12:07 Yes

Trevor Noah 12:08 And you just said you don't have to worry

Sizwe Dhlomo 12:09 Yeah, you don't.

Trevor Noah 12:10 No

Sizwe Dhlomo 12:10 Because listen, so hear me-

Trevor Noah 12:11 It's not about me. You just said to me-

Anele Mdoda 12:13 Like, all this, all of us end individually

Trevor Noah 12:14 ... hold on. Let me tell you what, let me just tell you what you just didn't right now.

Sizwe Dhlomo 12:17 So-

Trevor Noah 12:17 This is what Sizwe did. I was on a plane-

Anele Mdoda 12:19 Eh

Trevor Noah 12:19 ... and I said, "I'm a little bit worried that this plane feels like it's gonna go down." And Sizwe said, "Well, if you look statistically, most planes crash around this age. So you're right, but you don't have to worry."

Sizwe Dhlomo 12:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 12:31 You literally said-

Sizwe Dhlomo 12:31 So let me explain.

Trevor Noah 12:32 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 12:32 Let me finish.

Trevor Noah 12:32 All right, go.

Sizwe Dhlomo 12:33 You're 100% correct. So all civilizations do come to an end, but it has to be that way so that a new civilization may begin.

Trevor Noah 12:39 Yes.

Anele Mdoda 12:39 Mm-hmm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 12:39 Right? You just have the kind of perspective now at your age, are you 40, 41, where you've seen things go from where they were to where they are.

Trevor Noah 12:49 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 12:50 Right?

Anele Mdoda 12:50 Mm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 12:51 But it's not to say the world's gonna end tomorrow.

Trevor Noah 12:53 No, I'm not, I don't even think that.

Sizwe Dhlomo 12:54 Right? But you're 100% correct. Things are deteriorating at a rapid race.

Trevor Noah 12:58 All right, so which one do we start with?

Trevor Noah 13:00 Which, which worry do we wanna handle first? I'll actually, I actually would love to start with your son.

Sizwe Dhlomo 13:04 Anele's one.

Anele Mdoda 13:05 Yeah, okay.

Trevor Noah 13:05 Alake. No, I, okay, I'll-

Sizwe Dhlomo 13:06 'Cause we've been there.

Trevor Noah 13:07 Yes.

Anele Mdoda 13:08 So-

Sizwe Dhlomo 13:08 So that one we can give you-

Trevor Noah 13:09 Okay

Sizwe Dhlomo 13:09 ... what works

Trevor Noah 13:10 So before I say anything on it, take me through a little bit about how you feel, like, as a mom of a son, 10 years old. Like, I understand you saying you worry that he's-

Anele Mdoda 13:22 Mm

Trevor Noah 13:22 ... now gonna get external influences, but why is that a worry and not, like, necessarily a joy?

Anele Mdoda 13:27 Oh, because I... They already have been external influences, right? Just e- even you two as an example to the-

Trevor Noah 13:33 Yeah

Anele Mdoda 13:33 ... to the relationship that you guys have with Alake, it is bordering on, on, on uncle-

Trevor Noah 13:37 Yeah

Anele Mdoda 13:37 ... on father figure and all of that, right? And so at, I think it's the, the older people, because I get to choose them. You must remember that.

Trevor Noah 13:45 Oh, curation.

Anele Mdoda 13:46 For a very long time, I get to choose who is around him.

Trevor Noah 13:48 I'm honored that you chose me then.

Anele Mdoda 13:50 [laughs] Aw. And-

Trevor Noah 13:51 I thought I was just, like-

Anele Mdoda 13:51 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 13:52 ... defaulted in, but I'm glad you chose me.

Anele Mdoda 13:53 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 13:53 Thank you.

Anele Mdoda 13:54 And now with that is that he, you know, also he can't c- he, he can't control who he's going, who he's going to meet type of thing.

Trevor Noah 14:01 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 14:01 So granted, yes, somebody may spark his, his interest and it, it'll be in a good way, but along the line it's gonna be in a bad way. And I just want that he's, to know that he's able to decipher and decide for himself that, ooh, you know, this one is, this one is not the one.

Trevor Noah 14:15 So tell us the story about him meeting this kid. Where did he meet the kid and how did you know the kid was bad? And why do you think Alake was unable to discern between the good and the bad of the kid?

Anele Mdoda 14:24 I prefer a kid who's outright rude, then I'm like, "Oh, is that it?" [laughs]

Trevor Noah 14:28 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 14:29 You know? You, you know? I'm like, "Okay, kid, let's square up." But this one, it was just, like, slight discipline issues where if we say, "Hey guys, let's all go. We're going now-"

Trevor Noah 14:40 Yeah

Anele Mdoda 14:40 ... he'll stay in the pool, uh, almost like looking at me to see, are you gonna come in the pool type of thing.

Sizwe Dhlomo 14:45 Sizing you up.

Anele Mdoda 14:46 Yeah, sizing, yeah, constantly sizing me up. But, and I suppose that's the relationship that he has with his parents, you know, where he's constantly pushing-

Trevor Noah 14:53 The boundaries

Anele Mdoda 14:53 ... you know, the boundaries and the envelope.

Sizwe Dhlomo 14:55 Can I just ask, how old was he?

Anele Mdoda 14:56 Same age as Alake. They're actually seven days apart.

Sizwe Dhlomo 14:58 Wow.

Anele Mdoda 14:58 They discovered this.

Trevor Noah 14:59 Oh.

Anele Mdoda 14:59 "Oh, we're best friends, you know?"

Trevor Noah 15:01 Oh.

Anele Mdoda 15:01 "Seven days apart. I'm born this day, he's born that day." So I, I'm like, "Oh, okay."

Trevor Noah 15:05 So wait, you said, "Get out of the pool."

Anele Mdoda 15:07 Yeah. Guys, this-

Trevor Noah 15:08 He then, he then looked at you.

Anele Mdoda 15:09 Yeah, like...

Trevor Noah 15:10 And then what did you say?

Anele Mdoda 15:11 I said, "Budy," I said, "Get out of the pool," you know? And he, he, he kind of, like, waddled around a little bit as well.

Trevor Noah 15:18 Yeah, 'cause I'm trying to picture-

Anele Mdoda 15:19 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 15:19 ... it's, it's pretty gangster for somebody to be wading-

Anele Mdoda 15:22 And challenging you

Trevor Noah 15:24 ... and challenging you.

Anele Mdoda 15:24 Looking you in the eyes type of thing.

Trevor Noah 15:25 So he doesn't respond?

Anele Mdoda 15:26 No, he doesn't respond.

Sizwe Dhlomo 15:27 Maintaining eye contact.

Anele Mdoda 15:28 But, but-

Sizwe Dhlomo 15:28 That's a G.

Trevor Noah 15:29 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 15:29 That's a G right there. [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 15:31 But you see, this is what I'm saying is that come out and say we're fighting so I know which arsenal to, to, you know, to activate type of thing. So now when you're doing this... [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 15:41 That's funny. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 15:43 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 15:43 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 15:45 Oh boy, that's funny.

Anele Mdoda 15:48 And then so now, now I take, like, a few, 'cause I was also in the pool. So-

Trevor Noah 15:52 Oh, were you in the pool?

Anele Mdoda 15:53 No, I was swimming with him-

Trevor Noah 15:54 Oh, you were in the pool

Anele Mdoda 15:55 ... and then I got out.

Trevor Noah 15:55 Okay, got it, got it.

Anele Mdoda 15:56 So it's also a case of, "Kid, please understand. I'm not too lazy to jump back in here. I, I will come and fetch you" type of thing, right? And now, now I'm looking at Alake and he- he's almost like he, he's, he's, he's at the step of the pool. His f- his friend is inside the water and his mother's outside. So it was, it was a moment where he was deciding. I was like-

Sizwe Dhlomo 16:15 It's a psychological tug of war

Anele Mdoda 16:16 ... yes.

Trevor Noah 16:19 Does he wanna be good or does he wanna be cool?

Anele Mdoda 16:20 Exactly. You know? So now, so that's why I was like, okay, so it was a few of those things. Maybe we're in the room, we're like, "Okay, we're going for dinner now." Everybody's ready. This kid, I'm like, "Hey, let's go," you know? 10 minutes, now we're standing outside. Even my partner's like, "Where you, where..." But now our child is standing with us. Now we're waiting for a stranger's ch- child, you know, 'cause we just met you.

Trevor Noah 16:41 I- if I may ask, so what heritage is this child? Is this a-

Anele Mdoda 16:45 Same as Alake. Everything... Guys, when I say everything was identical-

Trevor Noah 16:48 Oh, wow, okay. So it's interesting

Anele Mdoda 16:48 ... yeah.

Trevor Noah 16:49 So you didn't even have, like, a little African swag you could pull out, just a little-

Anele Mdoda 16:51 No

Trevor Noah 16:52 ... a little something

Anele Mdoda 16:52 ... no.

Trevor Noah 16:53 No?

Anele Mdoda 16:53 Not at all.

Trevor Noah 16:54 Wow.

Anele Mdoda 16:54 Not at all.

Trevor Noah 16:55 This is actually more dynamic and interesting.

Anele Mdoda 16:57 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 16:57 I was picturing a white kid, and I was like, "No, this sounds normal."

Anele Mdoda 16:59 Not a white kid. This is a Black kid.

Trevor Noah 17:01 Oh, wow.

Anele Mdoda 17:01 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 17:02 When you think about it, Anele's fear, your fear, and my fear are the same fear.

Anele Mdoda 17:09 Run me through that.

Sizwe Dhlomo 17:11 So to kinda, like, break it down in a nutshell, uh, you just gotta ask yourself, are you comfortable with the world raising your child?

Trevor Noah 17:20 Oh.

Sizwe Dhlomo 17:20 If you were to set your child out into the wild, in the wilderness-

Trevor Noah 17:23 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 17:23 ... which is the world-

Trevor Noah 17:24 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 17:25 ... are you comfortable with the sort of person they'd come back as?

Anele Mdoda 17:29 You see, that's why I was-

Sizwe Dhlomo 17:30 Which speaks to your question-

Anele Mdoda 17:32 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 17:32 ... and kinda speaks to my fear as well.

Anele Mdoda 17:33 That's why I was saying that, you know, the job now is to make him so confident and have high self-esteem and understand who he is, that he doesn't have to be taken by those things. But the truth of the matter is, at that age, 'cause you must remember we're pre-teen now. We're going into teen.

Trevor Noah 17:47 Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Anele Mdoda 17:48 Yeah. At that age, you are, you, you, you, you are questioning a lot of things. Yes, you know what you were taught, but there are other lessons coming from the outside, and they're not always gonna be good.

Trevor Noah 17:57 So I, I don't, I don't, I'll probably butcher some of it. I'm bad with remembering numbers, but there was a child psychologist who once told me, for boys and girls it's slightly different, but I believe from, like, zero to two or three-

Anele Mdoda 18:09 Yeah

Trevor Noah 18:09 ... it's all mom It's just all mom, right?

Anele Mdoda 18:12 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 18:12 And then I think from, like, three to, like, seven, 10, and it changes for boys and girls, it's mom and dad in terms of, like, just, like, parental household vibe.

Anele Mdoda 18:20 Mm.

Trevor Noah 18:20 But then to your point, they say for boys specifically, once they hit, like, 10, 11, 12, somewhere there-

Anele Mdoda 18:27 Yeah

Trevor Noah 18:27 ... it's all about uncle, as they call it.

Anele Mdoda 18:28 Mm.

Trevor Noah 18:29 They say it's all about other men or male figures outside the household.

Anele Mdoda 18:32 Could be a coach.

Trevor Noah 18:33 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anele Mdoda 18:33 Could be a head boy. Uh, you know-

Trevor Noah 18:35 Yeah. Who just, like-

Anele Mdoda 18:35 Yeah

Trevor Noah 18:35 ... they're the ones who now-

Anele Mdoda 18:37 Captain of the football team.

Trevor Noah 18:37 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 18:38 Yes.

Trevor Noah 18:38 Exactly.

Anele Mdoda 18:38 Exactly.

Trevor Noah 18:39 Exactly.

Anele Mdoda 18:39 The numbers are actually zero to seven is mom, seven to 14 is, is dad or uncle, and then s- uh, 14 to 21 is external. But because-

Trevor Noah 18:47 But who's external? You gave us such specific ones for the first two.

Anele Mdoda 18:50 No, but you must remember that because kids are growing up at a rapid pace as well-

Trevor Noah 18:55 Yeah

Anele Mdoda 18:55 ... for me, and this is not psycho ... This, this is not scientific, whatever.

Trevor Noah 18:58 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 18:59 I, I just think that at 10 now-

Trevor Noah 19:01 Oh, it's happening

Anele Mdoda 19:01 ... we are already-

Trevor Noah 19:02 It's happening

Anele Mdoda 19:02 ... we are already external.

Trevor Noah 19:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's possible.

Anele Mdoda 19:03 Because also he is going out a lot more than a, a normal child would've gone out as a 10-year-old 20, 30 years ago.

Trevor Noah 19:10 Is there a part of you that wonders if your mom tai chi has been enough?

Anele Mdoda 19:15 Yeah. I- I- there is. There is. The fact that he questions it because you must remember some people just will go along with it immediately.

Trevor Noah 19:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anele Mdoda 19:23 "Hey, let's do this. We go." I can see the thought process in Alake's mind when he goes, "Di- di- di- di- di- di- di- di- di, di," and then, like-

Trevor Noah 19:30 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 19:30 You know? I can [laughs] I ca- I ca- I can see it. I can see it. But also, you know, I've been very careful in ... 'cause I don't want my child to be scared of me-

Trevor Noah 19:40 Mm-hmm.

Anele Mdoda 19:40 At all. I, I don't want that. I want-

Trevor Noah 19:42 Too late. Ha ha. No, I'm joking. [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 19:47 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 19:48 That's funny. [laughs] Oh, wow. Yes, carry on.

Anele Mdoda 19:53 I'm so glad that entertained you, both of you. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 19:55 [laughs] It's very funny. You're such a mom, you know? It's just such a funny line. [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 20:02 I don't want my child to be scared of me, but I do want him to, to know that this, this is the line and this is the line.

Trevor Noah 20:09 Yes.

Anele Mdoda 20:09 Right? And to, to respect. And you know, a- a- to respect me and just to respect other people, and also to respect somebody's decision that they're not gonna go. It's like, "You know what? I respect that you wanna do this, but I am not gonna do that." And that's, frankly, really all, all, all I want.

Trevor Noah 20:23 So now did you explain to Alake, we'll call this anonymous kid X-

Anele Mdoda 20:28 Mm

Trevor Noah 20:28 ... why X's behavior is not acceptable in this household?

Anele Mdoda 20:32 Yes. Yes.

Trevor Noah 20:32 Okay. Did he pick it up, though?

Anele Mdoda 20:34 Yes, he did.

Trevor Noah 20:35 Oh, so he-

Anele Mdoda 20:35 Yeah

Trevor Noah 20:35 ... saw this happening?

Anele Mdoda 20:36 Yes. And as we were walking back to our room, he was walking so far ahead because he knew, he knew that we want to have, you know, the chat with him. But then I did the most gangster thing-

Trevor Noah 20:44 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 20:45 Right? [laughs] I didn't say anything because I could see he was like ... It was stewing him. It was stew- I didn't say anything. And I just asked and I said, um, "Your, your guys' behavior at the restaurant was really not, uh, what, what we like about you and what we've taught you." He's like, "No, I understand." And then he quickly named exactly what he'd done, what they-

Trevor Noah 21:06 This is child X?

Anele Mdoda 21:07 No, this is Alake.

Trevor Noah 21:08 Oh, this is Alake.

Anele Mdoda 21:08 My wife, yeah.

Trevor Noah 21:08 Okay, okay, okay.

Anele Mdoda 21:09 And he quickly like ... But, but then 'cause we're asking him 'cause there were a point where they weren't within us seeing what they were doing-

Trevor Noah 21:14 Yeah

Anele Mdoda 21:14 ... but then they came back and they just, like, disheveled and wet, like they were playing with water somewhere-

Trevor Noah 21:18 Oh, man

Anele Mdoda 21:18 ... type of thing. Yeah, but he ... So he explains what happened. I'm not buying the story, but he explains the, what happened to my partner. My partner's buying this. I don't know if he was buying it, whatever. Guy to guy as well, they had, like, a little man to man-

Trevor Noah 21:28 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Anele Mdoda 21:28 ... and then I was like-

Trevor Noah 21:28 Right

Anele Mdoda 21:28 ... "Actually, you handle it. Le- leave me out of it." Fine, go to bed. 3:00 in the morning I wake up, 'cause I want him to tell me the story again as he's just woken up. Go into, [laughs] go into his room. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 21:41 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 21:43 Go into his room and, and I-

Trevor Noah 21:45 This is on a holiday, bro. [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 21:47 [laughs] Put, put the lights on, everything.

Trevor Noah 21:51 The lights on even.

Anele Mdoda 21:52 And he ... No, but he doesn't wake up 'cause the lights are on, but I just want that when I do wake him up-

Trevor Noah 21:56 The lights are on

Anele Mdoda 21:57 ... I ... Yeah, the lights are on so I can see his immediate reaction. I ask him, "Just give me that story again. Run it by me again 'cause I didn't quite catch it."

Trevor Noah 22:03 I just want to rewind to the point when you said, "I don't want my son to be scared of me."

Anele Mdoda 22:06 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 22:06 Bruh.

Anele Mdoda 22:07 But-

Trevor Noah 22:07 We at a resort.

Anele Mdoda 22:08 We at a resort.

Trevor Noah 22:09 And this drill sergeant is turning on the lights at 3:00.

Anele Mdoda 22:11 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 22:11 What is this?

Anele Mdoda 22:11 To inter- to interrogate you.

Trevor Noah 22:13 Bruh.

Anele Mdoda 22:14 To interrogate you. Switch on the lights and then I get into bed with him and then I nudge him. I'm like, "Hey, baba, wake up." He wakes up, he's like, "Ooh, is it time for us to go already?" I'm like, "No, no. Just quickly, I didn't quite hear that story."

Trevor Noah 22:27 Wow. Anele.

Anele Mdoda 22:27 Just- [laughs]

Trevor Noah 22:28 Wow

Anele Mdoda 22:28 ... run it by me again. What wa- And then he ran ... He, he said it, and I was comfortable with the answer. And then I was like, "But you do understand that this is not behavior that we are accustomed." He's like, "No, I get it, and I know that it was wrong, and this is why I, I was apologizing." And I'm like, "Okay, cool. I just wanted to know that the story was the story and there wasn't anything else that I need to address." And I said to him, "Because you know that some kids don't come ... k- kids don't come from the same backgrounds and from the same homes"-

Trevor Noah 22:54 Yes

Anele Mdoda 22:54 ... type of thing.

Trevor Noah 22:54 In other houses, they leave the lights off and they let you sleep-

Anele Mdoda 22:57 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 22:57 ... until the morning. That's how other houses do it.

Anele Mdoda 23:00 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 23:00 Words.

Anele Mdoda 23:01 But in this house ... [laughs]

Trevor Noah 23:03 Wow.

Anele Mdoda 23:03 You know? So, yeah. Th- you ... But also when I did that, 'cause then I got back and then my partner's like, "Oh, is everything fine?" I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, it's fine." And then, like, then when I woke up in the morning and I told him [laughs] he was like, "No. No ways." And I'm like, "Yeah." And I said to him, "You know what? I've never been a mother to a 10-year-old before, so I'm also winging it" type of thing.

Trevor Noah 23:23 Yeah, that's true.

Anele Mdoda 23:24 Yeah. I'm also winging it, much like he's never been a 10-year-old before and with all his e- these emotions and everything that's going on with him. So we're just going to have to figure each other out.

Trevor Noah 23:33 And I have to, like, negotiate with a 10-year-old terrorist, essentially.

Anele Mdoda 23:36 [laughs] Yes.

Trevor Noah 23:37 And just hope that their logic coincides with yours.

Anele Mdoda 23:42 Mm.

Trevor Noah 23:42 You know, I, I, I don't know if I ever told you this story. Um, so Isaac, my youngest brother-

Anele Mdoda 23:46 Mm

Trevor Noah 23:46 ... right? Him and, and the middle brother were staying with me, uh, in LA, and they'd come to visit me, and it was this whole thing, and we're there for, like, Christmas. And they've now gotten to an age where they're big enough that I have to negotiate with them, but they're still young enough that they do crazy shit.

Anele Mdoda 24:03 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 24:03 Right? So one day we're all having, we're having dinner together. We, we order food, and then we ... But we plate it. I was like, 'cause I want them to feel civilized. You know what I mean? 'Cause I was like, "I'm also the person who eats out the box."

Anele Mdoda 24:12 Uh-huh.

Trevor Noah 24:13 But I want ... Let's do, like, a family thing.

Anele Mdoda 24:15 Uh.

Trevor Noah 24:15 Let's put, take the food out of the, out of the box and put it on a plate like we cooked it. Cool. So we all eat. We all, we put things together. Everything's great. We're done. And- When we're done, it's time to clean up. And I say, "Guys, help me. Let's take everything to the kitchen." And I take, like, one bowl, one glass. My brothers stack everything.

Anele Mdoda 24:36 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 24:36 They stack, stack, stack, stack, stack everything. And I'm, I'm like, "What are you guys doing?" They're like, "We're taking it to the, to the kitchen." I was like, "Guys, guys, guys, take one thing at a time."

Anele Mdoda 24:44 It can come back, hey.

Trevor Noah 24:45 My other brother's like, he's like, "Yeah, but I can do this. I got this." I was like, "Hey, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's not about whether you've got this."

Anele Mdoda 24:50 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 24:51 "Take one thing at a time. You're stacking, like, everything." You know what I mean? He's like, "Yeah, but I- I'll be fine." I was like, "No, no, no, no. You think you'll be fine until you're not fine. Please just take one thing at a time." He's like, "Oh, okay." So I go to the kitchen with the one thing, and now, you know we're doing that thing where we're crossing, so one person-

Anele Mdoda 25:07 Yeah

Trevor Noah 25:07 ... goes to the table-

Anele Mdoda 25:08 Yeah

Trevor Noah 25:08 ... another person go, one person goes to the table. As I'm at the table with the youngest, Isaac, we're chatting, I hear a smash-

Anele Mdoda 25:15 Oh

Trevor Noah 25:15 ... on the other side of the house, glass shattering. And you know, you know what it... It's not even like I'm like, "Oh, is there a break-in?" I know exactly what glass that was. So go to the kitchen. I'm like, "Yo, bro, what happened?" "Oh, yeah, the glass dropped." I'm like, "The glass didn't just drop. The glass dropped because you took more things than I told you to." Then he's like, "Oh, yeah, my bad." Then I'm like, "No, not your bad. Not your bad. I told you the thing." And so now we're having this, like, you know, and he's not even fighting. He's being, like, very polite and everything. And so now the youngest is, like, running with the stuff. So he's doing one and one, but he's sprinting back and forth.

Anele Mdoda 25:47 Oh.

Trevor Noah 25:47 So I'm like, "Okay, no running."

Anele Mdoda 25:49 So many rules, Trevor.

Trevor Noah 25:50 This is what he says.

Anele Mdoda 25:51 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 25:51 He's like, "Jeez, bro." He's like, "So many rules." I'm like, "Yes, these are the rules for how you make sure that the stuff in your kitchen stays around," right?

Sizwe Dhlomo 25:58 And also you don't hurt yourself.

Trevor Noah 26:00 You see? So he's running. Guys, at, at some point I go, "Yo." I said, "Walk slowly. Take the things one by one. Don't..." He's like, "Yeah, but I run all the time. I'll be good." I was like, "Yo, just take the things one..." He's like, "But why do I have to do it, yo?" And I'll never forget this. In that moment he's like, "Why do I have to..." And I was like, "'Cause I said so!" And you know when, like, every parent flashed in front, I was like, "Ha, ha. I have become death."

Anele Mdoda 26:20 He became Raven.

Trevor Noah 26:21 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 26:21 But did he accept it?

Trevor Noah 26:23 No, he didn't. But I've always said my, my, my youngest brother's probably the s- the smartest-

Anele Mdoda 26:27 Yes

Trevor Noah 26:27 ... person we've ever had in our family, and the most emotionally intelligent. He sat with it. He did what I said, and he came back maybe, like, 10 minutes later. You know, there now there's, like, a weird feeling in the house.

Anele Mdoda 26:41 Uh.

Trevor Noah 26:41 But he came back to me and he said, he said, "Hey, Trev." He said, um, "I just wanted to apologize for what happened. I, I didn't mean to offend you." I was like, "Yeah, I get it. I'm sorry, too," you know. And he says, "But here's the thing." He's like, "The reason I keep asking you why when you tell me to do things, it's not because I wanna undermine who you are as a person." He's like, "It's because I don't understand why you're doing things the way you do them. So if I just do them the way you do them, I never really believe in it. I'm just doing it because I've learned it as a rote identity."

Anele Mdoda 27:09 Ooh.

Trevor Noah 27:10 He's like, "But if I actually learn why you do it the way you do, then maybe I can adopt it as my own. And then if I'm challenged by somebody or something one day, I'll know why I do it. So the reason I ask you why is not because I'm challenging you as my big brother. It's just because I really wanna understand why you actually do it. 'Cause I don't wanna be a robot, I wanna be a human being-

Anele Mdoda 27:26 Mm

Trevor Noah 27:26 ... who believes in my actions." So, you know, you know what it made me realize is, like, I realized that every parent and every adult figure in a child's life will have that frustration. You're g- you're bound to be frustrated because you are proposing every idea through the lens of logic and experience. But your kids, rightfully I think in many ways, are also here to test what those boundaries are.

Anele Mdoda 27:54 Mm.

Trevor Noah 27:55 If every child, even us, think of us, the three of us sitting here, and everyone who's listening. If you did everything the way your parents did it, half the time you wouldn't be where you are. You wouldn't have discovered a new way to work, a new type of job, a new career, a new country, a new language, a, a new sport, a, a new religion, a new style of dressing.

Anele Mdoda 28:14 A new relationship.

Trevor Noah 28:15 Yeah. Like, you literally have to break what they've taught you-

Anele Mdoda 28:19 Yeah

Trevor Noah 28:19 ... to make something new, and the difficulty, as you say, is we're all winging it. We d- we don't know what will or won't work. It's just in these moments where you go, "Look, when we say get out of the pool, get out of the pool." But it's a, it's, it's a tough one 'cause it's like, do you have a... 'Cause I've never had a friend who's a mom. Do you get what I'm saying? Like a friend-friend.

Anele Mdoda 28:41 Thanks, Trev.

Trevor Noah 28:42 No. What... [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 28:42 I'm also like, "Damn, Trev. This is a way to break up with a friend."

Trevor Noah 28:45 No. What I'm saying is-

Anele Mdoda 28:47 That's where we are

Trevor Noah 28:47 ... no. What I'm saying is, so, so what I, what I'm saying is I, I've never been in the position where I can say this to you and, and ask you honestly, like-

Sizwe Dhlomo 28:54 Mm

Trevor Noah 28:55 ... do you have a... It's not like you can have a fixed number, but do you have a number of how much you're willing to tolerate his boundary pushing because you think it might be what creates something bigger and more beautiful than you've ever considered?

Anele Mdoda 29:08 Definitely, but the thing that we parents are doing now is y- y- we, we're very willing to question the school that he's at because-

Trevor Noah 29:15 Okay

Anele Mdoda 29:15 ... there's too much writing and the kids aren't writing anymore. Let's take him to a school that just does robotics and everything is computerized.

Trevor Noah 29:21 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anele Mdoda 29:21 It's, it's... Or, or, or sporting, right? Oh, my child is so good at this. Maybe I should take him out of the school because he's gonna play for the Springboks, or he's gonna play for the Proteas, and all of that. But I think when it comes to, you know, just discipline and emotion and all of that, as parents, we're very much holding on to, you know, what you believe-

Trevor Noah 29:38 Yeah

Anele Mdoda 29:38 ... at that, at that moment in time. It's very difficult, and I tried very hard with, with my son where I'm like, "Okay, level with me. Let, l- talk to me. You know, explain to me w- what was your thinking when you were doing that?"

Trevor Noah 29:49 Yeah, yeah.

Anele Mdoda 29:50 Right? So that I can understand. Because, like you said, I'm 40 and he's 10, and we really, uh, we, we, we, different times.

Trevor Noah 29:57 Mm-hmm.

Anele Mdoda 29:57 Right? You know, dif- different times, different ways of parenting as well. And I didn't have that with my mom or my dad. It was what they say, sure. You know?

Trevor Noah 30:05 That's the rule.

Anele Mdoda 30:06 That was the rule. It's also because it's like, I'm paying for the house, I'm paying for this and that, and so, you know, as long as you live under this household-

Trevor Noah 30:12 Hey, under this roof

Anele Mdoda 30:13 ... under this roof you are going to... You know, type of thing. And I don't want that with the house. You know, simple things as well, like people ask me, "Why do you knock when you go into your son's room? You know, it's your house." I'm like, "Yes, but it's his room."

Trevor Noah 30:24 Did you knock at 3:00 AM? You didn't. That was a-

Anele Mdoda 30:27 He was sleeping

Trevor Noah 30:27 ... that was a surprise.

Anele Mdoda 30:28 And also that's a hotel.

Trevor Noah 30:29 That's a... Oh, okay.

Anele Mdoda 30:30 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 30:30 Oh, nice.

Sizwe Dhlomo 30:31 In his room.

Trevor Noah 30:32 Nice. Hey, I see.

Sizwe Dhlomo 30:33 That's funny.

Trevor Noah 30:33 You see, like, you, you know when law enforcement finds all these loopholes. Oh, we didn't need a search warrant because it wasn't your home.

Anele Mdoda 30:39 You... No, that's it.

Sizwe Dhlomo 30:40 In all fairness, the visit was san- was sanctioned by the Minister of Tourism, right?

Trevor Noah 30:43 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 30:44 He gave you keys to the city.

Trevor Noah 30:45 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 30:47 So, um, so, like, why do you knock? And I'm like, "Because I want him to knock when he's coming into my room." Right?

Trevor Noah 30:54 Yeah, yeah. You wanna-

Anele Mdoda 30:54 Yeah

Trevor Noah 30:54 ... you wanna model the behaviors.

Anele Mdoda 30:56 Yes. And here's the thing, is that I want to show you that I respect your privacy because everybody else in the world must also respect your privacy type of thing.

Trevor Noah 31:03 Oh, damn.

Anele Mdoda 31:03 Because if I... H- how can I say I'm allowed to not to respect your privacy, but everybody else must respect your privacy type of thing.

Trevor Noah 31:11 Okay. Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 31:11 So I, I basically treat him the way I want the world to treat him so that he can know. He's like, "No, back at home, this is how I'm treated, and you're not treating me the way that I'm treated at home-

Trevor Noah 31:21 Mm-hmm

Anele Mdoda 31:21 ... where I'm loved, so this is not gonna fly." And actually, that's all you want your kids to be about. [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 31:26 We're gonna continue this conversation right after

Trevor Noah 31:29 this short break. [upbeat music] Did you ever have a bad influence as... 'Cause I know you weren't the bad influence.

Sizwe Dhlomo 31:41 Yeah, so bad influences are everywhere.

Trevor Noah 31:44 No, but I'm saying as a kid, like, did you have, did you have a friend where they were, like, your bad inf... 'Cause I was-

Anele Mdoda 31:52 The bad influence

Trevor Noah 31:53 ... in many ways, yes, I will say. But I also think I had-

Sizwe Dhlomo 31:56 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 31:57 ... many friends. I think we were renegades together, to be honest. I think-

Sizwe Dhlomo 32:01 Not in my formative years, no.

Trevor Noah 32:02 No, you didn't?

Sizwe Dhlomo 32:03 No.

Trevor Noah 32:04 Wow.

Sizwe Dhlomo 32:04 Because majority of the people that were around me were handpicked by my parents.

Trevor Noah 32:08 Oh.

Sizwe Dhlomo 32:09 So even my friends-

Trevor Noah 32:09 So we come back to the cousins

Sizwe Dhlomo 32:10 ... exactly, even my friends, it was really because my parents are friends with these people, and then they'd be like, "We're going to so-and-so's house." And then, "Hey, okay, DumiSo's my friend." I didn't... Like, it's not like I sought out DumiSo to be my friend. It didn't work like that. But here's my thinking and the approach, and I obviously I think you're doing it well. I think all you can do, look at it like coding. You just introduce the fundamentals, right, to your child, and then tell them-

Trevor Noah 32:37 You're talking about computer co- coding?

Sizwe Dhlomo 32:38 Yes.

Trevor Noah 32:39 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 32:39 But even with human beings-

Trevor Noah 32:41 Yeah, yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 32:41 ... because essentially it is a system anyway.

Anele Mdoda 32:43 'Cause we're robots.

Trevor Noah 32:44 'Cause we're AI.

Anele Mdoda 32:44 We're AI.

Sizwe Dhlomo 32:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 32:45 Aren't we all?

Anele Mdoda 32:45 Aren't we all?

Sizwe Dhlomo 32:45 Exactly.

Trevor Noah 32:46 Aren't we, aren't we?

Anele Mdoda 32:47 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 32:47 So you introduce these fundamentals-

Anele Mdoda 32:48 Die, machine.

Trevor Noah 32:48 Basic programming

Anele Mdoda 32:48 ... I'd agree with you. Sorry.

Sizwe Dhlomo 32:50 This program is tripping. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 32:52 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 32:53 Oh.

Sizwe Dhlomo 32:53 Alt + Delete. Right. So once you've got the fundamentals in place and they understand them, and obviously you guys are in agreement what the fundamentals are, then you can go to, like, intermediate programming and tell them, "Okay, well, now with these fundamentals that you fully understand-

Trevor Noah 33:09 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 33:09 ... what do you think the right thing to do in this situation is?" And then he will tell you.

Anele Mdoda 33:14 Mm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 33:14 And then you go, "Well, actually, that is the wrong thing to do, Alaka. Because if you do that, for example, Isaac, I know you're used to running, but there's a possibility you may slip and you carry a glass, and you will get impaled by this glass. That's why it's rather safer for you to just walk," right? By running, yeah, you save a little bit of time, but we're in no rush. Then it's like, okay, cool. Now he-

Trevor Noah 33:36 You're very logical.

Sizwe Dhlomo 33:38 But that's how life is. What else? No.

Trevor Noah 33:39 Ah, no, you, you s- you sound like you've never been a child.

Sizwe Dhlomo 33:42 No, but listen to me.

Anele Mdoda 33:43 Mm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 33:43 Guys-

Trevor Noah 33:43 Guys, I knew... Let me tell you something.

Sizwe Dhlomo 33:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 33:45 When I was opening the TV in the living room-

Sizwe Dhlomo 33:48 Yes

Trevor Noah 33:48 ... and I was-

Anele Mdoda 33:48 As in opening it, like you wanna see what's inside?

Trevor Noah 33:50 Yeah, when I was unscrewing the whole thing.

Sizwe Dhlomo 33:51 Yes.

Anele Mdoda 33:51 Okay. Ooh.

Trevor Noah 33:52 Logically, I knew-

Anele Mdoda 33:54 Oh

Trevor Noah 33:54 ... everything.

Sizwe Dhlomo 33:54 I unscrewed the TV, too, but I had logic for it.

Trevor Noah 33:57 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 33:57 I wanted to see how the TV works.

Trevor Noah 33:59 Oh, same with me.

Sizwe Dhlomo 34:00 And as a result, I was able to fix things at home. I was a guy... Like, dude, maybe by, like, eight, I was a handyman at home.

Trevor Noah 34:07 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 34:09 And I, my dad understood I couldn't have been the handyman unless I broke my toy.

Trevor Noah 34:13 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 34:14 But I'll tell you what, when things were wrong and I fixed it without him paying a cent, boy, was he glad I broke that toy.

Trevor Noah 34:20 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 34:21 You see?

Anele Mdoda 34:22 So that's intermediate.

Sizwe Dhlomo 34:23 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 34:23 You see what, you see what-

Sizwe Dhlomo 34:24 Now, here's the thing-

Trevor Noah 34:25 Now that's, that's funny. It comes, it comes back around to, like, is there a reward on the other side?

Sizwe Dhlomo 34:28 There's always a reward. I'm told I was a highly inquisitive child. Ah, I guess I still am, even as an adult, right?

Trevor Noah 34:35 Yeah, you are. Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 34:36 And the thing with questions is you're just gathering data points. That's all you do. You're ga- you're gathering data points, and you're gonna later use those data points that you've collected and go, "Oh, okay, well, when I asked Auntie Anela this, she told me this, this, and that, so maybe I should go this way." There's a lot of things I never got to experience and still have no inkling, I don't even wanna experience them. But I've learnt major lessons from other people and their experience of those things. So when you now withhold those answers and you just-

Anele Mdoda 35:05 'Cause I said so

Sizwe Dhlomo 35:06 ... you, you nip it in the bud by saying, "Yes, because I said so"-

Anele Mdoda 35:08 Mm

Sizwe Dhlomo 35:09 ... you are starving Isaac of the data points he needs-

Trevor Noah 35:12 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 35:12 ... in order for him to be able to come up with the decision which will then obviously make sense to him.

Trevor Noah 35:16 Yeah, the wrong or the right. All right. Well, if you need, you know, outside models, role, role models, you let us know.

Anele Mdoda 35:23 No, no, I'm, I'm covered.

Trevor Noah 35:25 You must, you must let us know.

Anele Mdoda 35:26 I mean, w-

Trevor Noah 35:27 But, Mina, I'm, I'm probably gonna say even at this age, I will bring a little bit of bad influence, but always respectful.

Anele Mdoda 35:34 Mm.

Trevor Noah 35:35 One thing my teachers always said, "Trevor's very respectful, but he's-"

Sizwe Dhlomo 35:38 But he's very troublesome.

Trevor Noah 35:39 "He's very disruptive in class, but very respectful, and oftentimes does not apply himself, but very respectful." There was no disrespect-

Anele Mdoda 35:48 Mm

Trevor Noah 35:48 ... in what I was doing.

Anele Mdoda 35:49 Mm.

Trevor Noah 35:50 Do you know what I mean?

Anele Mdoda 35:51 No, no, I do.

Trevor Noah 35:51 "Yes, ma'am. No, ma'am. Yes, ma'am, I was the one who put the firecracker in the toilet, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. That is correct, ma'am."

Sizwe Dhlomo 36:00 Why, Trevor? Why?

Trevor Noah 36:02 Because we wanted to see what happens.

Anele Mdoda 36:04 The thing about being a child being inquisitive as well is that it could be on the bad side of things.

Trevor Noah 36:10 Yes.

Anele Mdoda 36:10 'Cause that's, that's-

Trevor Noah 36:10 That's what I see your worry as well

Anele Mdoda 36:12 ... 'cause peo-... Yeah.

Trevor Noah 36:12 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 36:12 'Cause people always treat, like, being inquisitive like, "Oh, such a wonderful thing. It's a great trait."

Trevor Noah 36:16 Yes.

Anele Mdoda 36:16 "He's so inquisitive." But if he's inquisitive as to what's going to happen if at age nine he takes the car-

Trevor Noah 36:21 Yes

Anele Mdoda 36:21 ... right? That's not a good thing.

Trevor Noah 36:22 I did that.

Anele Mdoda 36:23 Yeah. Oh.

Sizwe Dhlomo 36:24 I thought about that.

Anele Mdoda 36:25 About what?

Sizwe Dhlomo 36:26 Taking the car.

Trevor Noah 36:27 Why did you do it?

Sizwe Dhlomo 36:28 Did you? So our driveway was, like, a bit of an incline.

Trevor Noah 36:33 Data points.

Sizwe Dhlomo 36:34 So when I was leaving, I would've been fine. But then when I was driving back, the car obviously would've had, like, hummed a little bit. And then I thought, "What if my dad thinks the car's getting stolen and then he shoots me?"

Trevor Noah 36:44 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 36:45 Then I was like, "Mm, I would rather not take this car." [laughs]

Trevor Noah 36:49 [laughs] I love that the sentence would end like that.

Anele Mdoda 36:52 Me too.

Trevor Noah 36:52 I didn't think the sentence would end like that.

Sizwe Dhlomo 36:54 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 36:55 Wow, okay.

Anele Mdoda 36:55 I thought grounded, like grounded-

Trevor Noah 36:57 Amen

Anele Mdoda 36:57 ... or get a, a-

Trevor Noah 36:58 I didn't

Anele Mdoda 36:58 ... very thing.

Sizwe Dhlomo 36:59 No, I thought, I thought, I thought, you know-

Trevor Noah 37:00 My dad would shoot me

Sizwe Dhlomo 37:01 ... what's the worst thing that could happen? He could think the car's getting stolen and shoot me

Anele Mdoda 37:05 Okay, but now we mustn't stick on this one 'cause everybody's got a worry. N- now we're gonna spend the next hour discussing only my worries

Sizwe Dhlomo 37:10 But our worries are all the same. We solve your worry-

Trevor Noah 37:12 This is, this is interesting

Sizwe Dhlomo 37:13 ... we solve all worries.

Anele Mdoda 37:13 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 37:13 So, so, okay, then let's, let's- But wait. She raised a very good point. We just glossed over it. It actually is the answer.

Anele Mdoda 37:20 What?

Sizwe Dhlomo 37:20 She spoke about his self-confidence, right, and belief in himself.

Trevor Noah 37:25 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 37:25 That actually is the answer to everything.

Anele Mdoda 37:28 Mm-hmm. And parent-

Sizwe Dhlomo 37:29 Because if, if, for example-

Trevor Noah 37:31 I don't think it is, but finish, finish what you're saying

Sizwe Dhlomo 37:33 ... okay, it's the answer to most things.

Trevor Noah 37:34 No, no, but keep going

Sizwe Dhlomo 37:35 ... it's obviously not the answer to everything. If his self-confidence is strong enough, right-

Trevor Noah 37:39 Mm

Sizwe Dhlomo 37:39 ... peer pressure will never be an issue. And we know, for example, that Alak is very smart already.

Trevor Noah 37:45 He's super smart

Sizwe Dhlomo 37:46 So he knows what right and wrong is. What usually sways people from wrong is the external influence. If he's strong enough and believes in himself, he can say, "Hey, dude, I hear what you're saying, but that's not how I was raised, that's not how we roll."

Trevor Noah 37:59 Mm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 37:59 And so already he's kinda insulated from the external influences of the world. It's not to say he'll never, like, go wrong, but he's unlikely to go as wrong as other people who are just amoebas and they go with the flow. A lot of people end up in trouble, they're like, "Yo, dude, I didn't even wanna be here. I told you guys let's not go there."

Anele Mdoda 38:16 Now you're sharing a cell.

Sizwe Dhlomo 38:17 You see?

Trevor Noah 38:18 So I hear what you're saying. One caveat I'd like to throw into this, and one counterargument is if we live in a world where everyone completely believes in themselves, I think we have a little less social cohesion.

Sizwe Dhlomo 38:32 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 38:33 We should never take for granted how powerful peer pressure is in society.

Anele Mdoda 38:36 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 38:37 So when you're on the road and you see that you could drive in the emergency lane and just get ahead of everyone, peer pressure is the only thing keeping you back. Yeah, you might be like, "Oh, the police." No, no, no. But beyond that, there's an element of knowing that every other road user is in some way, shape, or form going to be against you, and you're like, "I'm not gonna do it." When you're standing in a line at an airport or anywhere else and you see that you could cut and you could get ahead, peer pressure's the only thing, like, stopping you from doing... You're not gonna get arrested. Do you, do you get what I'm saying? I think there's a, there's a weird balance, and we don't know what the knobs perfectly are.

Sizwe Dhlomo 39:10 But the world knows.

Anele Mdoda 39:11 But the way you look-

Sizwe Dhlomo 39:12 And it's, it's interesting that you say that

Anele Mdoda 39:13 ... yeah.

Trevor Noah 39:13 No, can I say-

Sizwe Dhlomo 39:13 'Cause we don't know what the balance is, but the world always fine-tunes you, right?

Trevor Noah 39:16 So, uh, okay, my argument is this.

Sizwe Dhlomo 39:18 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 39:18 And this may sound a little anarchist, but it's not. But, like, I don't believe we know, and I don't think there is a right, because I think every piece needs to exist. So, like, on the one hand, you need, like, a renegade to be like a Steve Jobs, let's say.

Sizwe Dhlomo 39:31 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 39:31 Where he goes, "No, we're gonna do this," and people are like, "You can't do it," and he's like, "We're gonna do it." And then he does it, and then now everyone's like, "Oh, yeah, this is how it should've been." But then there's also some renegades who are like Jeffrey Dahmer. Jeffrey Dahmer didn't suffer from peer pressure, I'm assuming. I don't think he was like, "Ooh, what are my friends gonna say?"

Anele Mdoda 39:45 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 39:45 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 39:46 He did his thing. He did his thing.

Anele Mdoda 39:47 My friends wonder.

Sizwe Dhlomo 39:48 Well, so, so here's the thing.

Trevor Noah 39:49 No, no, no, no. So all-

Sizwe Dhlomo 39:50 So here's the thing, right

Trevor Noah 39:50 ... so all I'm saying, all I'm saying is-

Sizwe Dhlomo 39:52 Yeah

Trevor Noah 39:52 ... I, I believe that there isn't one fixed way or not way. I think a, a system will always, like, find entropy. It will always find the place where it exists for the best of what it is trying to do. But I, I think you can create a child, or you think you, you can try your best to create a child, who does not care about what anyone else says. And I think those types of people are assholes in the world as well, 'cause they don't care about what anyone else says. And then there are some people who care too much about what everyone else says.

Anele Mdoda 40:21 Mm.

Trevor Noah 40:21 And then they are at the whims of, of the crowd.

Sizwe Dhlomo 40:24 So Joe Budden's got a line, right?

Trevor Noah 40:27 Joe Biden?

Sizwe Dhlomo 40:27 Joe Budden.

Trevor Noah 40:28 Oh.

Sizwe Dhlomo 40:28 The rapper.

Anele Mdoda 40:29 I was like, that's different.

Trevor Noah 40:29 Very different name.

Sizwe Dhlomo 40:30 I was like, wow, this guy's about to quote Joe Biden.

Anele Mdoda 40:32 [laughs] Like, okay.

Trevor Noah 40:32 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No.

Sizwe Dhlomo 40:32 I was like, damn, I, I don't think I've ever heard anyone quote Joe Biden.

Anele Mdoda 40:35 Quote Joe Biden.

Sizwe Dhlomo 40:36 This is a rap line or so.

Anele Mdoda 40:37 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 40:37 Long before he did podcasts. And he speaks about, "Mama raised me proper, the streets just molded me. The streets coded me, made me a better pedigree." Then he goes on to say, "Things are complicated like Avril Lavigne said it'd be," but that's besides the point.

Anele Mdoda 40:49 Hey.

Sizwe Dhlomo 40:50 Basically, when you go out into the world, the world will either affirm you or it will challenge you.

Trevor Noah 40:55 Cool.

Sizwe Dhlomo 40:56 Right? So with your fortitude, you go there and then they will be like, "No, my friend, that's not how this works."

Trevor Noah 41:02 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 41:02 And very quickly, if you're a smart person, you will then learn, "Oh, damn, I'm wrong about this." However-

Trevor Noah 41:08 Mm. Yes

Sizwe Dhlomo 41:09 ... if you are correct about your ways-

Anele Mdoda 41:11 It will affirm you

Sizwe Dhlomo 41:11 ... the world will affirm you, and then you'll see it's okay, this actually works. And that's how people end up rising to a certain point.

Trevor Noah 41:19 So okay. It's actually funny you, you say that, 'cause I think that's, that's a perfect segue to my worry.

Anele Mdoda 41:24 Mm.

Trevor Noah 41:26 I agree that the world will affirm you or challenge you.

Sizwe Dhlomo 41:32 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 41:32 Right? But I don't think that that is based in absolute truths.

Sizwe Dhlomo 41:39 Mm.

Trevor Noah 41:39 So sometimes you will be affirmed or challenged based on the circumstance or the situation.

Sizwe Dhlomo 41:43 True.

Anele Mdoda 41:44 Or what people can benefit from affirming you or challenging you.

Trevor Noah 41:46 They... Ex- exactly. Exactly.

Anele Mdoda 41:47 Aha.

Trevor Noah 41:47 So, so now let's go to my worry. Um, the reason I say I think the global/liberal/whatever experiment has failed is because there was a time when many politicians around the world started to believe... And I'm sure there was another time when this happened with trading in general, but they said, "You know what? We could be connecting the world in interesting and different ways. You know, you could, you could make something in China, or you could make it in any country where it's developing really, and that means the country where they're selling it to, they can focus on different types of labor."

Anele Mdoda 42:19 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 42:20 "They can be more specialized. They can work in offices. They can do this. So they'll actually be selling a different product to the world. Their product might be a service."

Sizwe Dhlomo 42:27 Mm.

Trevor Noah 42:27 "It might be something digital. And then the people who are using that, they might buy something else and they might... But we're all connected, and then-"

Anele Mdoda 42:32 It's gonna be a chain-

Trevor Noah 42:33 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Anele Mdoda 42:34 ... of wonderful things.

Trevor Noah 42:34 And, and, and we're all-

Anele Mdoda 42:35 Yeah. Yeah, yeah

Trevor Noah 42:35 ... and it's, it's the circle of life, you know what I mean? It's like this beautiful world where money's flowing from one place to the next, and one... And now, and Sizwe, you, you're the economics guy, so I'm sure you, you, you can speak to it deeper than I can. But, like, I feel like what happened was, first and foremost, the money dammed up in a way that

Trevor Noah 42:52 no one really predicted.

Sizwe Dhlomo 42:53 Mm.

Trevor Noah 42:54 So the money didn't move around the world. It didn't stay in Bangladesh and Vietnam and all these places where the workers are making it. It very quickly left those places-

Sizwe Dhlomo 43:03 Yes

Trevor Noah 43:03 ... and went into bank accounts in certain parts of the world, right? The people working even at these companies in those parts of the world- It doesn't matter how big these corporations are. But one of the things I find particularly interesting is how, like we, we've accepted this as normal, and maybe we won't for a while, where companies can hire people to help them make profits.

Anele Mdoda 43:26 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 43:26 Once they've achieved that profit, they can fire all of those people-

Anele Mdoda 43:30 And hire people for the next-

Trevor Noah 43:31 To help, to help them make more profits

Anele Mdoda 43:33 Yeah

Trevor Noah 43:33 Right? So, so this is the, this is the second part of it, why I think it's, why I think it's failing. I think we were never fully prepared to communicate with everyone everywhere all the time without understanding the nuances and the complexities that come with everybody's understanding of the world. In the, you know, in the same way that we're worried about like what we say to aliens.

Anele Mdoda 43:55 When they arrive.

Trevor Noah 43:55 Not even when they arrive. You've seen we've sent, we've sent like things to space.

Anele Mdoda 43:59 Okay, signals like-

Trevor Noah 44:00 Yeah, yeah

Anele Mdoda 44:00 ... are you there?

Trevor Noah 44:00 We've sent capsules.

Anele Mdoda 44:01 Yeah. Okay.

Trevor Noah 44:02 And then they'll choose. They go, "We've put some Mozart, some Beethoven. We've sent..." But there's also like crazy shit we've sent. We've sent like a random like rock and roll song that could sound like a war anthem. I don't know. Or maybe Mozart sounds like war to an alien, I don't know.

Anele Mdoda 44:15 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 44:16 Right? You, you really don't know.

Anele Mdoda 44:18 You, when you said we've sent crazy shit-

Sizwe Dhlomo 44:19 Very sophisticated fighters

Anele Mdoda 44:20 ... the thing that came into my mind wasn't, wasn't that. I was like, oh. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 44:23 No, but we've also sent like plants and seeds and w- we, we've tried to, we tried to send what we think encapsulates the human race is what we've done.

Anele Mdoda 44:33 Ooh.

Trevor Noah 44:33 But-

Anele Mdoda 44:33 That is a very, very risky thing.

Trevor Noah 44:36 Exactly. Exactly.

Anele Mdoda 44:37 Because what does encapsulate the human race?

Trevor Noah 44:39 That's exactly my point.

Anele Mdoda 44:40 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 44:41 And so-

Anele Mdoda 44:41 Maybe each country should send something. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 44:43 Even then, and so now I'm saying social media as a whole, the, the, the whole connected idea of it, forget like actual social media.

Anele Mdoda 44:51 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 44:52 I just don't think we ever prepared for it. We never prepared for a message to cross borders and cultures in the way that it does. It may connect us in moments, but I think it's, it's ripping us apart at the seams in more places than we ever thought.

Anele Mdoda 45:05 But do you-

Trevor Noah 45:05 And so I think, that's why I think the whole thing is falling apart. I think in South Africa-

Anele Mdoda 45:09 Uh

Trevor Noah 45:09 ... where we are at right now, I think we're going to see only more xenophobia.

Anele Mdoda 45:13 Yes.

Trevor Noah 45:13 We're going to see more people not wanting immigrants to come into the country. And in many people's defense, by the way, not just in South Africa, in the US, in Europe, et cetera, if we use the binary, we can be very quick to say, "These people are hateful."

Anele Mdoda 45:29 Mm.

Trevor Noah 45:29 It's very easy to do that, right? But the underlying issue is true in many places.

Anele Mdoda 45:35 But I think you've got a global view because you are a global person, right? We can scale this down and realize that it's always been like that, it's just that now we are aware that it's happening everywhere else as well. Let me take it back to South Africa.

Trevor Noah 45:47 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 45:48 A person who was raised in the hood and a person who was raised in the rural areas, they are aliens to each other.

Trevor Noah 45:54 Okay, so the hood versus the village-

Anele Mdoda 45:56 Yes

Trevor Noah 45:56 ... essentially.

Anele Mdoda 45:56 V- versus the village.

Trevor Noah 45:57 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 45:57 There we go. But then even in America, somebody who was raised in the South, and I'm a Southern belle.

Trevor Noah 46:02 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 46:02 Do you know what I'm saying? As opposed to somebody who was raised in New York, those people are also quite alien to each other.

Trevor Noah 46:07 Okay. Yes.

Anele Mdoda 46:07 Right? And that's, now that is a country. I just feel that because you've been everywhere in the world, it is a lot more heightened for you that you think that.

Trevor Noah 46:15 No, no. So this, but this is what I mean. I mean that the experiment was, it felt like it was working for a moment.

Sizwe Dhlomo 46:22 So here's the thing. I mean, I can't speak to the second part of your thought process, 'cause that's more sociology. But the first one, which is economics, that makes sense. And even if you look at any economic textbook, it really just, it dictates that things will be that way. Because capital, by its very nature, is monopolistic, right?

Trevor Noah 46:41 Right.

Sizwe Dhlomo 46:42 There are four factors of production we are told. We're told it's capital, labor, entrepreneurship, and then I suppose land. But really when you think about it, there's only one factor of production, it's capital. Because with capital you can buy the other three.

Trevor Noah 46:56 Right.

Sizwe Dhlomo 46:57 That's why the effect has been that money has always pulled back to-

Anele Mdoda 47:02 To money

Sizwe Dhlomo 47:02 ... yes. Because once you've made the money, you realize, okay, I no longer need the labor. Now I can build AI and that will substitute the need for labor.

Trevor Noah 47:11 Yes.

Sizwe Dhlomo 47:11 Right? Okay, I no longer need entrepreneurship. I can go to India and hire a CEO. Okay, I no longer need, for example, land.

Trevor Noah 47:19 Yes.

Sizwe Dhlomo 47:19 Right?

Trevor Noah 47:19 Exactly.

Sizwe Dhlomo 47:19 These are all the things. Capital will always supersede everything in a capitalistic society. That's why it's called capitalistic.

Trevor Noah 47:25 Right.

Sizwe Dhlomo 47:25 They don't call it laboristic. [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 47:27 Or landistic. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 47:30 I wanna live in a landistic country.

Anele Mdoda 47:32 Landistic country. [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 47:32 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 47:32 No, but, but so I agree with you. And what I'm saying though is this was an experiment. We, remember, we're always conducting an experiment. Like you said with your son, you're winging it.

Anele Mdoda 47:40 Mm.

Trevor Noah 47:41 We're also winging it. I think this is something we should always acknowledge as people, and I think not enough politicians do, and not enough leaders do. They make it seem like we know. So I've seen people who talk about like socialism, they know. People talk about communism, they know. People talk about capitalism-

Anele Mdoda 47:53 Mm

Trevor Noah 47:53 ... they know. But I'm like, "Guys, you don't know." We're all winging it with as much information as we have. We're gathering data points, as you say. Right? So there was no communism until there was. There was no socialism until there was. There was no capitalism until there was, right? What I'm saying is this experiment that we're conducting now, I worry that it's failing, but I worry that it's failing because the reason I worry about it failing is because of the ramifications on the other side. So-

Sizwe Dhlomo 48:22 But that's how revolutions come.

Trevor Noah 48:24 This is my point.

Sizwe Dhlomo 48:24 That's the reset.

Trevor Noah 48:25 You see-

Sizwe Dhlomo 48:25 Everything has a reset.

Trevor Noah 48:26 You see, this is my point. I don't like your tone when you say these things, Sizwe. You say very-

Anele Mdoda 48:31 Things will happen. They will do.

Trevor Noah 48:31 No, no, no. But he, he says it in a very, your tone is positive.

Anele Mdoda 48:35 Mm.

Trevor Noah 48:35 But the message you're giving is like, you're like, "Yes, well, that's a revolution."

Sizwe Dhlomo 48:38 Because that's what happens. That's a matter of fact.

Trevor Noah 48:40 It's a reset and everyone's gonna die. Yes, but your tone, uh, you must d- deliver in like, "Well, that's a reset."

Sizwe Dhlomo 48:45 You are worried that you're living on the cusp.

Trevor Noah 48:48 Yes, completely.

Sizwe Dhlomo 48:48 Yes.

Anele Mdoda 48:49 He wants to miss the revolution.

Trevor Noah 48:49 We.

Sizwe Dhlomo 48:50 But-

Trevor Noah 48:50 We, not me

Sizwe Dhlomo 48:51 ... yes, all of us

Trevor Noah 48:52 We. I think-

Anele Mdoda 48:52 You wanna miss the revolution?

Trevor Noah 48:53 No.

Anele Mdoda 48:53 You wanna be here for it?

Sizwe Dhlomo 48:55 No.

Trevor Noah 48:55 I don't wanna be here for it.

Sizwe Dhlomo 48:56 Trevor, Trevor, Trevor doesn't want to be-

Trevor Noah 48:57 Do you wanna be here for a revolution?

Anele Mdoda 48:59 I mean, I th- I think in many parts we-

Trevor Noah 49:01 You want to be here for the revolution?

Sizwe Dhlomo 49:03 No, you don't want.

Anele Mdoda 49:03 No, I don't want to be here for a revolution.

Trevor Noah 49:04 Let me tell you something about a revolution, yeah?

Sizwe Dhlomo 49:05 It's, it's disruptive, first of all.

Trevor Noah 49:06 And no, and nobody knows what comes out on the other side.

Sizwe Dhlomo 49:08 Yes.

Trevor Noah 49:09 You, you think I have power. A revolution completely disrupts power.

Sizwe Dhlomo 49:13 Mm.

Trevor Noah 49:13 You think, "Oh, but I'm of the people." Revolutions also squash the people.

Sizwe Dhlomo 49:17 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 49:17 And the outcome of a revolution is not predictable, right? And then-

Anele Mdoda 49:20 Wasn't COVID a revolution?

Trevor Noah 49:21 Oh, it was a revolution.

Sizwe Dhlomo 49:22 No, but Trevor's right in that it's obviously, it depends what sort of person you are, right? It's better to be living in very calm times-

Trevor Noah 49:29 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 49:29 ... and steady times.

Trevor Noah 49:30 Yes.

Sizwe Dhlomo 49:31 But you learn a lot if you're living on the cusp, because that's where majority of change takes place.

Trevor Noah 49:36 I mean, this is true.

Sizwe Dhlomo 49:37 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 49:37 But one of-

Sizwe Dhlomo 49:38 If you look at us, we've gone th- we literally went from analog to digital. That alone will blow many people's minds.

Trevor Noah 49:44 Yes.

Sizwe Dhlomo 49:45 Crazy the things that we've seen. We went from DAT recorders to CDs to cassette tapes to VHS-

Trevor Noah 49:52 Yes

Sizwe Dhlomo 49:53 ... to CD. Yo, bro.

Anele Mdoda 49:53 When I said that, you know, maybe I think we've lived through revolutions, I, I think you guys think I, I'm, I'm assuming, like, the violent ones, you know?

Trevor Noah 50:01 No, no, no, no, no. I, I just mean mess-

Sizwe Dhlomo 50:03 You mean a reset.

Anele Mdoda 50:05 Okay. So you're saying I'm talking about a reset and not a revolution.

Sizwe Dhlomo 50:08 Yes.

Anele Mdoda 50:09 You're gonna have to then give me the difference between those.

Sizwe Dhlomo 50:11 A revolution you'll know.

Anele Mdoda 50:13 Blood will be spilled.

Sizwe Dhlomo 50:14 Not necessarily blood will spill, but you wouldn't be sitting here talking about COVID as a revolution. You'd know for a fact.

Anele Mdoda 50:19 Then give me an example of a revolution.

Sizwe Dhlomo 50:21 Cuban Revolution.

Trevor Noah 50:21 Arab Spring.

Sizwe Dhlomo 50:22 Yes. Well, Arab Spring somewhat, but regimes change.

Trevor Noah 50:26 Yes.

Sizwe Dhlomo 50:26 Presidents-

Anele Mdoda 50:27 Okay, violent then.

Sizwe Dhlomo 50:28 Not necessarily.

Trevor Noah 50:29 Not necessarily. They can be peaceful.

Sizwe Dhlomo 50:30 Like, in 1994, South Africa had a revolution, but a peaceful revolution, more or less. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 50:36 More or less. No. Okay. This is ... So this is what I mean. I'll, I'll just throw them out at you and, and, and I'll ... Maybe you'll understand the picture that I'm seeing. Let's say in America, right? It was interesting to see how even amongst themselves, the Trump MAGA crowd is experiencing, like, a fraying connection between the people.

Sizwe Dhlomo 51:03 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 51:04 In a, in a microcosm-

Anele Mdoda 51:05 Mm

Trevor Noah 51:06 ... you look at the Trump party. I don't call it the Republican Party, it's the Trump party. You would think within that world, everyone would just be like, "Yeah, we know what we're doing. We're doing it right." Look at the thing that happened with Elon Musk and the H-1B1 visas.

Anele Mdoda 51:20 Mm.

Trevor Noah 51:20 Elon Musk is rolling with Donald Trump. They're like, "Yeah, we know what we're doing. We're planning this new world order." Elon's like, "Hey, man. I have a new best friend. I paid $250 million for him, so I wanna hang out with him all the time."

Anele Mdoda 51:29 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 51:30 Trump is like-

Anele Mdoda 51:30 Trump needs his mom to come to him at 3:00 in the morning.

Trevor Noah 51:32 Yeah. [laughs] Trump is like, "You're a bit of a loser. I wanted your money. Go away." That's ... 'Cause you can see Trump knows cool and not cool.

Anele Mdoda 51:39 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 51:39 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 51:39 Like you saw when Trump was sitting with Obama.

Anele Mdoda 51:41 Ooh.

Trevor Noah 51:42 Say what you want, but Trump was like-

Anele Mdoda 51:43 He loved that

Trevor Noah 51:43 ... Trump was like, "This guy's cool."

Anele Mdoda 51:44 Yes.

Trevor Noah 51:45 You could see he was like, he... All those fancy things-

Anele Mdoda 51:47 He was trying to make him laugh. He's like-

Trevor Noah 51:48 Yeah, yeah

Anele Mdoda 51:48 ... "This is a joke."

Trevor Noah 51:49 And he was making him laugh.

Anele Mdoda 51:49 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 51:50 Trump was like, "This guy's cool."

Anele Mdoda 51:52 Mm. I need this guy's approval.

Trevor Noah 51:53 That... Exactly. 'Cause Trump knows cool. Say what you want about him.

Anele Mdoda 51:56 Trump is like-

Trevor Noah 51:57 Say what you want about him. [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 51:58 That is funny. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 52:00 Say what you want about him. So when, when I look at the Elon Musk thing, it's amazing to see how quickly what I'm talking about is affecting everyone, because Elon Musk and his people go, "All right. Now we know what we're doing." Trump fans and supporters are like, "Actually, no." Like, Steve Bannon goes, "No, no, no. Hey, I actually don't like this agenda. Why are we hiring these people from

Trevor Noah 52:20 India and from these places to come and work on these companies?" Elon's like, "'Cause we need them." Then Steve Bannon's like, "No, we don't need them. We need them because we haven't created a world where Americans are the ones that are needed."

Sizwe Dhlomo 52:29 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 52:30 Then the tech guys say yes, but like Vivek Ramaswamy and Elon Musk-

Sizwe Dhlomo 52:33 Yeah

Trevor Noah 52:33 ... they say, "Yeah, but Americans are not trained enough, and they're not smart enough." Then these guys are like, "Oh, you're saying Americans are stupid?"

Anele Mdoda 52:39 Yeah, stupid.

Trevor Noah 52:39 Is that what you're saying? They're like, "No." And then the other guy's like, "Yes, I am saying that." Then he's like, "Why don't we train Americans?" Then he's like, "No, because it's, it's, it's not supposed to work like that." And then even within that little confine, you see the thing falling apart. The promise hasn't been delivered, right? Because white Americans were told, "Stop your factory things."

Anele Mdoda 53:00 We got this.

Trevor Noah 53:01 "Don't worry. So what's gonna happen is you're gonna just move forward, right? And your company, you're gonna wear a, a suit and tie, and you're gonna have a different job, and you're gonna get great money." Worked for a moment. Then companies, as you say, capital does what capital does.

Anele Mdoda 53:16 Mm.

Trevor Noah 53:16 Companies were like, "We could actually make more money with less. And why are we paying American workers when we could be paying people from India or Bangladesh less? And even if they come into the country, we can force them to work a ton of hours, because what are they gonna say? No?"

Sizwe Dhlomo 53:29 And they'll be a lot more appreciative of the dollar.

Trevor Noah 53:32 Exactly, because they have a visa.

Sizwe Dhlomo 53:33 Materialism.

Trevor Noah 53:34 Exactly. And now even within that tiny world, you see the experiment failing. And now there, Steve Bannon comes and says, "Elon Musk is a white South African who is racist and born from apartheid. We cannot allow him into the White House." Now, people watching this are like-

Anele Mdoda 53:48 Wait, I, I-

Trevor Noah 53:49 ... "Wait, Steve Bannon is saying this guy's racist." No one knows what to do.

Anele Mdoda 53:52 He must really be racist. [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 53:53 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 53:53 No one knows what to do with it.

Anele Mdoda 53:54 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 53:54 No one knows what ... But that's just one example. Uh, then you look at South Africa and how South Africans are now going like, "Actually, actually, no, no, no. We're not trying to help Africa. No, no, we're just trying to do our own thing." Then you look at Europe. Europe's like, "No, no, no, no, no. Close. Close here." Germany, they're like, "Hey, man, this whole immigrant thing, actually, no, no, no. No, no, we're not. We're not."

Anele Mdoda 54:10 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 54:10 Then you look at, like, banking. You look at hiring. Look at AI itself.

Anele Mdoda 54:14 Mm.

Trevor Noah 54:14 We are on a fast track to people turning around and saying, "Wait a minute. If AI is doing every job, who's doing a job?"

Anele Mdoda 54:21 Mm.

Trevor Noah 54:22 "And if nobody's doing a job, who's buying things? And if nobody's buying things, what are we doing?" And-

Sizwe Dhlomo 54:29 This is why it's so interesting, because all of it actually just boils down to economics and living conditions. Everything you've just highlighted is not a problem if people are comfortable.

Trevor Noah 54:40 Yeah, completely.

Sizwe Dhlomo 54:41 If we're all comfortable, I love AI, 'cause who wants to work?

Trevor Noah 54:44 Yes.

Anele Mdoda 54:44 Mm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 54:44 Let AI work. If we're all comfortable and you're telling me you wanna bring in some Indian guy, hey, by all means, buddy, do the thing there. I'll sit here with my time.

Trevor Noah 54:51 Yeah, that's true.

Anele Mdoda 54:52 But you ... Okay, that-

Sizwe Dhlomo 54:53 The problem is-

Trevor Noah 54:53 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 54:54 ... now when we're starving, they'll be like, "Hey, man, these foreigners are taking our jobs."

Trevor Noah 54:58 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 54:58 Mm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 54:58 That's the problem.

Trevor Noah 54:59 That is the problem.

Sizwe Dhlomo 55:00 Whereas if we were comfortable, we'd be like, "Hey, buddy. Hey, I got something here for you. You wanna do this? 'Cause I don't wanna do it."

Anele Mdoda 55:06 Mm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 55:06 That's essentially the issue.

Trevor Noah 55:08 And that's what I'm saying has failed.

Sizwe Dhlomo 55:09 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 55:10 I'm saying the thing that was sold to people was prosperity for all.

Sizwe Dhlomo 55:14 Okay.

Trevor Noah 55:14 That has not happened, whether it's South Africa, whether it's U- the United States, whether it's parts of Europe.

Sizwe Dhlomo 55:19 And it can never happen.

Trevor Noah 55:20 Wait, you think it can't happen?

Sizwe Dhlomo 55:21 Never. Prosperity for all.

Trevor Noah 55:22 It can.

Sizwe Dhlomo 55:23 No, it cannot.

Anele Mdoda 55:23 No.

Trevor Noah 55:23 So what it can?

Anele Mdoda 55:24 Uh, th-

Sizwe Dhlomo 55:24 Let me tell you why-

Anele Mdoda 55:24 ... 'cause this is what I wanna say

Sizwe Dhlomo 55:25 ... it can't happen.

Trevor Noah 55:26 Okay.

Anele Mdoda 55:26 This is what I say-

Trevor Noah 55:26 Yeah

Anele Mdoda 55:26 ... is that even when we are a- like you're saying, the Trump party, not the Republicans.

Trevor Noah 55:30 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anele Mdoda 55:31 Even we're, we're, when we're all for one thing and we have one ideal, we're still going to disagree within that, right?

Trevor Noah 55:37 But not fundamentally.

Anele Mdoda 55:38 I think so

Trevor Noah 55:39 No, they argue... People are now disagreeing fun- I hear you

Anele Mdoda 55:42 Look at, look at South Africa. Look at the ANC.

Trevor Noah 55:45 Yes

Anele Mdoda 55:45 Where we were all about one thing.

Sizwe Dhlomo 55:47 Anele, Anele's right

Anele Mdoda 55:47 Even when we get along, guys. Even in a group of friends.

Sizwe Dhlomo 55:50 No.

Anele Mdoda 55:50 You know that WhatsApp group where there was nine of you and the n- next thing in that nine-

Sizwe Dhlomo 55:54 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 55:54 ... six of you slip to the side. Do you know what I'm saying? It's, that is human nature.

Sizwe Dhlomo 55:58 So Anele is right.

Trevor Noah 56:00 Yes.

Sizwe Dhlomo 56:00 There will always be disagreements. What I'm saying is, when things are okay, the disagreements are inconsequential.

Trevor Noah 56:05 Yes.

Anele Mdoda 56:06 Exactly.

Sizwe Dhlomo 56:07 So there can never be prosperity for all because in order for people to prosper, there needs to be productivity, and the productivity needs to come from somewhere. Now, what happens is you do get certain instances where there are more resources than there are those that deplete the resources. What it means is the model seems like it's working for a lot longer-

Trevor Noah 56:28 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 56:28 ... but it's really not. The model is always deteriorating. That's just the nature of the model. You could be living in the Garden of Eden, but the more you procreate, the more you're gonna run out of fruit in that garden. [paper rustling]

Trevor Noah 56:40 Don't go anywhere, 'cause we got more What Now? after this. [upbeat music] This is where I disagree. I think a lot of the scarcity that we think is real in the world isn't real. That's the first thing.

Anele Mdoda 56:58 Mm.

Trevor Noah 56:58 And I think a lot of it is created by institutions and companies that need you to consume. So for instance, a simple example is your phone, right? Everyone has the new iPhone until Apple releases the next iPhone.

Sizwe Dhlomo 57:10 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 57:11 It is literally even the day before launch, you have the latest iPhone, and then one day later, you now have an old iPhone, right?

Sizwe Dhlomo 57:18 So, so you're right.

Trevor Noah 57:19 So-

Sizwe Dhlomo 57:19 The issue is not scarcity, it's about the distribution of resources.

Trevor Noah 57:24 That's, but that's why I'm-

Sizwe Dhlomo 57:24 That's what the problem is

Trevor Noah 57:25 ... so what I'm saying is I a- I agree completely. I'm saying we are, and we have been... And look, there may not be a perfect world for this, but I think there's also a lot of artificial scarcity and a lot of artificial-

Anele Mdoda 57:38 I agree with you

Trevor Noah 57:39 ... distribution that has now, like-

Sizwe Dhlomo 57:40 And it's at, and it's at an all-time high.

Trevor Noah 57:42 Yeah, guys.

Anele Mdoda 57:42 I agree with you.

Trevor Noah 57:43 Like, the perfect example is water.

Anele Mdoda 57:44 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 57:44 Guys, I don't understand how we live in a world-

Anele Mdoda 57:46 Where it's-

Trevor Noah 57:47 ... where water is owned by companies, and we are all gonna have to buy water from corporations. Guys, everywhere in the world you are gonna-

Anele Mdoda 57:54 I read that about LA, that a couple owns all the water in LA.

Trevor Noah 57:57 Guys, it's a farming c- farming family. They own, like, water. You're like, "How do you own water?"

Anele Mdoda 58:01 Well, who, who did you buy it from?

Trevor Noah 58:02 But that's my point.

Anele Mdoda 58:02 Who, who owned it before you?

Trevor Noah 58:04 But that's my point, 'cause the water goes under my house as well. How come I can't stop the water and o- Do you see what I'm saying?

Sizwe Dhlomo 58:09 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 58:09 So now, Sizwe, I get what you're saying economically, but I'm saying that's why all of these things, I worry that we are going to hit too many at the same time.

Sizwe Dhlomo 58:17 Mm-hmm.

Anele Mdoda 58:18 Okay.

Trevor Noah 58:19 And that thing is going to be-

Anele Mdoda 58:22 Okay

Trevor Noah 58:22 ... it will be, it will be... I don't know if it will be a revolution, but I think we are, we are on track. Unless there's some sort of correction somewhere, we are only on track for a, like, a mass ending correction type thing, revolution, whatever you wanna call it. I cannot see another way.

Sizwe Dhlomo 58:42 Well, luckily all of this has been thought of.

Trevor Noah 58:44 Mm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 58:45 Even the thing you just mentioned now about water going under your house.

Trevor Noah 58:47 Yes.

Sizwe Dhlomo 58:47 So for example, the Romans, 'cause they came out with land ownership, they kind of, they basically had a, a definition of what land ownership is.

Trevor Noah 58:57 Mm-hmm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 58:57 Right? It'll be, I guess, the square meters or whatever the measurements will be.

Trevor Noah 59:01 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 59:02 And then it'll be everything on and above the ground-

Trevor Noah 59:05 Mm-hmm

Sizwe Dhlomo 59:05 ... belongs to you. Everything below the ground, that belongs to the state.

Trevor Noah 59:09 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 59:10 That's, for example, what our mining laws are based on-

Anele Mdoda 59:13 Yeah. Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 59:13 ... here in South Africa.

Trevor Noah 59:13 Right

Sizwe Dhlomo 59:14 So if the water is flowing on top of your ground, that's your water. But the underground water is not yours.

Trevor Noah 59:20 Yes, but the problem is the state-

Sizwe Dhlomo 59:22 Now, is it fair? It's obviously not fair, but I hear you.

Trevor Noah 59:24 Yes, but and what is a state? A state is a collection of people. It's an, it's a, it's a, it's a fiction that we've all agreed to. So now the problem is when the state sell it to private people, where do we end up? In revolution. So Siz- by the way, Sizwe is not helping me at all.

Sizwe Dhlomo 59:37 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 59:37 'Cause he's affirming everything I'm saying.

Anele Mdoda 59:39 Uh.

Sizwe Dhlomo 59:40 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 59:40 Imagine if we were doing that with you.

Anele Mdoda 59:41 But, but you know what he's saying?

Trevor Noah 59:41 Imagine we were doing that with Alake.

Anele Mdoda 59:42 He's saying it was supposed to happen that way, but you guys also did that with me, that it's supposed to happen that way.

Trevor Noah 59:46 No, no, no, no, no.

Sizwe Dhlomo 59:47 It's like Nas' second album, It Was Written.

Trevor Noah 59:51 Yes.

Anele Mdoda 59:51 [laughs] Thank you, Joe Budden.

Trevor Noah 59:53 But here's what, remember what my original statement was.

Anele Mdoda 59:56 Yes.

Sizwe Dhlomo 59:56 Yes.

Trevor Noah 59:56 I'm worried that the experiment is failing. Because remember, what we're also doing as humans is we're constantly trying to undermine the natural order of things. We do it with our health, right? So back in the day, your shoulder, you would be gone.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:00:11 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 1:00:12 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:00:13 Now you may not be gone.

Anele Mdoda 1:00:14 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:00:15 Right? And I think this is something that's important to understand, is that one of the main things that makes humans humans is that we've challenged the very fundamental order and nature of life and the world.

Anele Mdoda 1:00:27 And we file it under progression.

Trevor Noah 1:00:28 Yeah, but, but we fight it. So we go, "Actually, maybe you shouldn't die of an infection."

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:00:33 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:00:34 And then you go, "Actually-"

Anele Mdoda 1:00:34 Maybe you shouldn't die at all. Remember the guy you interviewed that

Trevor Noah 1:00:36 Yes, exactly

Anele Mdoda 1:00:37 ... was waiting for himself.

Trevor Noah 1:00:37 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anele Mdoda 1:00:38 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:00:38 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 1:00:38 Maybe you shouldn't die at all. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:00:39 Right. So, so the reason I say I'm wor- I'm f- I'm sad and I'm worried that the experiment is failing is because it was an experiment. People thought that if you put goods and services, or if you say that things are gonna be manufactured in poor countries, it's gonna bring them up, and then that'll free up the developed countries to do different types of jobs, and it'll bring them up, and then they will sell their ideas, and it'll bring them up.

Anele Mdoda 1:01:05 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:01:05 And they'll... this beautiful loop, this beautiful loop, this beautiful loop, and we will all raise... What is that? Rising tides raise all boats.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:01:11 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:01:11 That's what we thought. What we didn't know was some people have boats that have water pumps, and they're taking a lot more water, and the tides are not rising everything. So now that's what I was saying is my worry. When my good friend Sizwe-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:01:22 The world is a Ponzi scheme

Trevor Noah 1:01:22 ... was kind enough to say. You see?

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:01:25 This was a good episode.

Anele Mdoda 1:01:26 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:01:26 And I like the fact that there's no solution. We just threw bombs out there.

Anele Mdoda 1:01:30 Yeah. [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:01:30 We're like, "Bye. Here are your worries, niggas. Bye." [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:01:34 [laughs] This guy.

Anele Mdoda 1:01:35 That, that's on you.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:01:38 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:01:39 I actually see a very hopeful future for your story with your son.

Anele Mdoda 1:01:43 Of course.

Trevor Noah 1:01:44 That's what I mean.

Anele Mdoda 1:01:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:01:45 So I go like, "Oh, you just have a problem or a worry about a potential problem, but I feel like there's many solves for the thing." That's-

Anele Mdoda 1:01:53 Is never leaving the house. [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:01:54 That's funny. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:01:57 [laughs] So that's, that's, as a friend, that's-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:01 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:02:01 And then my friend has said to me, "No, no, don't worry. All your worries are correct, and it's gonna end."

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:07 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:02:07 That's what he just did to me.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:08 Because they are.

Trevor Noah 1:02:08 You must never be a doctor, by the way, Sizwe. You would-

Anele Mdoda 1:02:11 Actually, he needs to be a doctor.

Trevor Noah 1:02:12 No, no. He would be the person who just walks in and says to you, "You're out. Statistically speaking, you were gonna die anyway. So, I mean-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:20 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:02:20 ... I don't even know why you wanna do the surgery."

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:23 Save your money, spend time with your family.

Trevor Noah 1:02:24 You see? That's what he would be saying to you.

Anele Mdoda 1:02:26 Okay. No, you should not be a doctor.

Trevor Noah 1:02:27 Be the shortest episodes of House ever.

Anele Mdoda 1:02:29 Ever.

Trevor Noah 1:02:30 Just walk in. So okay, um, let's do Sizwe's. So your concern is, you worry that...

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:35 So generally speaking, um, as you correctly point out, the world is continually deteriorating.

Trevor Noah 1:02:42 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:42 Right? And I feel like the tools-

Trevor Noah 1:02:45 Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait. I'm not saying continually. Let me be on record of saying that.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:49 Well, I'm saying that.

Trevor Noah 1:02:49 I think, I think we're in, like, cycles, and I'm saying now-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:51 No, we are in cycles.

Trevor Noah 1:02:52 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:52 But obviously in the cycle, it's continuing to deteriorate.

Anele Mdoda 1:02:54 We are now.

Trevor Noah 1:02:54 Okay, okay, okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:54 We haven't hit rock bottom yet.

Trevor Noah 1:02:55 Okay, great. Okay, cool.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:56 It's only gonna stop deteriorating-

Trevor Noah 1:02:57 Yes, yes

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:57 ... when we hit rock bottom, then we're gonna need to rebuild.

Trevor Noah 1:02:59 Okay, cool.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:00 Now,

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:01 I worry that in the short term, because life is relatively short, right? To raise a kid in that environment is gonna be very tumultuous. And the tools that personally I had to navigate the world, I see those tools becoming more and more useless every day.

Trevor Noah 1:03:16 Can you give us an example of those tools?

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:18 Uh, I mean, just general things like, for example, bullying. A very simple example.

Trevor Noah 1:03:24 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:24 Right? There used to be a safe haven for bullying. These days, there isn't really.

Trevor Noah 1:03:30 For bullying?

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:03:31 Sorry, sorry. I'm, I feel like I'm mishearing you. S- safe haven for people being bullied?

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:36 From being bullied, yes.

Anele Mdoda 1:03:37 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:03:37 Oh, okay. I thought you were saying there was a safe haven for bullying.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:40 That's funny. [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 1:03:40 You could run there.

Trevor Noah 1:03:41 No, really. Dude, you-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:42 Okay, okay, all right

Trevor Noah 1:03:43 ... you're also, like, a weird thinker.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:44 Okay, okay, okay.

Trevor Noah 1:03:44 You could, you could be the kind of person who says that.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:46 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:03:46 Back in my day.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:46 Protect all bullies.

Trevor Noah 1:03:47 Yeah, you were like, "Back in my day-"

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:48 All bullies matter. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:03:49 "... bullies could find a place." Dude, you're the kind of person who could say that.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:54 Look-

Trevor Noah 1:03:55 Okay

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:55 ... bullies do build character.

Trevor Noah 1:03:56 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:57 But I don't think we need bullies anymore.

Trevor Noah 1:03:58 Okay, okay, sorry. So you're saying...

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:59 So you could get bullied-

Anele Mdoda 1:04:00 What, what was safe haven?

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:04:01 So you could get bullied, and then at 2:30, the bell would ring. You'd be like, "Phew. That's so great."

Trevor Noah 1:04:06 Oh, it ends.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:04:06 "Mom, I'm going home."

Anele Mdoda 1:04:07 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:04:07 Yeah, it ends.

Anele Mdoda 1:04:07 Now it follows you home.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:04:07 And then, then, then you'd be in your mom's car, and then be like, "Mom, you'd never believe it, eh. These guys are gonna beat me up," and then you pitched up right in time.

Trevor Noah 1:04:14 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:04:14 And now the guys are beating you up in your mom's car.

Trevor Noah 1:04:17 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:04:17 And your mom's like, "Sizwe, why are you in your school?" And they pummeling you, you know what I mean?

Trevor Noah 1:04:22 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:04:22 So that's just one simple example.

Trevor Noah 1:04:24 Okay, got it.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:04:24 And again, it speaks to that thing of yours, the interconnectedness, because we never-

Trevor Noah 1:04:28 Yeah, we don't even prepare for all this

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:04:30 ... 100%.

Trevor Noah 1:04:30 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:04:30 100%. And when you're a kid, you really don't have the broadened vision to know it's actually, what I can do, just turn off my phone.

Trevor Noah 1:04:38 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 1:04:39 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:04:39 I think as adults, we also don't necessarily have that. It took me... I'm trying to think of when this changed. Maybe somewhere pandemic-ish, somewhere. It took me a long time to realize, uh, if it, if I don't know it, it's... Or if I don't even acknowledge, it's not even happening. I know it sounds like a weird thing. People are like, "No, but, but people are saying things about me online." And I'm like, yeah, it's not really happening. Unless t- uh, you know what I... 'Cause I think-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:05:03 Don't you feel like our youth kind of primed us for this, though?

Trevor Noah 1:05:07 In what way?

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:05:07 Specifically, like, our youth in showbiz. Dude, we came out in a time where I guess the review would've been, "Eh, the ratings, the show sucks," or whatever.

Trevor Noah 1:05:16 Okay, okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:05:17 That's why when I see the kids that grew up now in the social media age-

Trevor Noah 1:05:22 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:05:22 ... right? And I see how seriously they take social media.

Anele Mdoda 1:05:24 And how they crumble-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:05:25 Yes

Anele Mdoda 1:05:25 ... when someone does say something.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:05:27 I can understand it. Because for them, they were made by social media.

Trevor Noah 1:05:30 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:05:30 And if you were made by social media, you feel like you can be destroyed by social media.

Trevor Noah 1:05:33 Okay. To channel my very wise younger brother, he would argue that we and the, the youngest of our generation is experiencing that. He says they're not. He's like, "You guys..." Like Bane, he's almost like, "Ah, you millennial dropped out."

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:05:47 Bane in the dark.

Trevor Noah 1:05:47 "You millennial dropped on social media. I was forged in social media."

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:05:51 Wow.

Trevor Noah 1:05:51 Like, he goes, "No, no, no, no. You and your youngest think that." He says, "Our generation, we're so robust because we were built by that." He's like, "We don't, we actually don't care." He says, "We don't really care about the thing, and we don't..." He even showed me, like, aesthetically-

Anele Mdoda 1:06:05 I disagree with that

Trevor Noah 1:06:06 ... No, but I'm saying, he showed me, like aesthetically-

Anele Mdoda 1:06:08 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:06:08 ... go look at, like, Gen Z and, and lower. Look at their Instagram, their TikTok.

Anele Mdoda 1:06:12 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:06:12 It's not aesthetic like millennials and above.

Anele Mdoda 1:06:15 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:06:15 It's not... They're not trying to show you a perfect picture of avocado toast.

Anele Mdoda 1:06:19 Right, right.

Trevor Noah 1:06:19 No, they just wanna show you a vibe. They might even show you the crumbs. That's their picture. And his argument is that we think of it as being something that is infinitely harder to tackle, but he's like, "It is only the reality that they have," right?

Anele Mdoda 1:06:34 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:06:35 So he goes, "I think your situation was worse." He's like, "Because-

Anele Mdoda 1:06:38 We entered striving for perfection-

Trevor Noah 1:06:40 Yep

Anele Mdoda 1:06:40 ... because we didn't know how this thing works.

Trevor Noah 1:06:42 No, but not even. He, like, he argues, he goes, "Yeah, you get, we get bullied online." But he's like, "But you guys got bullied, like, physically, and there wasn't really stuff you guys could do about it when it was happening physically."

Anele Mdoda 1:06:52 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:06:52 And then he goes, "I can make friends online. I can look at a video on TikTok about how to be a boxer." But he argues that their reality is different to ours, but it comes with its own pros and cons, and they're fine with it.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:07:04 Yeah, I think he's correct. In fact, in that analogy, I would think I'm somebody like Tony Hawk. I'm like the geriatric in a skate park.

Trevor Noah 1:07:13 Oh, yeah. That's how you are on social media.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:07:16 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 1:07:16 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:07:16 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:07:17 'Cause I'm with the kids, throwing the mud. Heavy.

Trevor Noah 1:07:19 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:07:20 Heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy. [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 1:07:22 Because you were-

Trevor Noah 1:07:23 Oh, man

Anele Mdoda 1:07:23 ... you were literally throwing the mud-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:07:25 Yeah

Anele Mdoda 1:07:25 ... on the playground.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:07:26 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:07:27 Okay.

Anele Mdoda 1:07:28 I, I think y- your brother's right, but I think there's very few of them that are like that. The rest of them, and if you, if, if you had to look at the stats around, you know, m- mental wellness and-

Trevor Noah 1:07:38 Yes

Anele Mdoda 1:07:38 ... anxiety-

Trevor Noah 1:07:39 Yeah

Anele Mdoda 1:07:39 ... and all of that, a lot of them are not thinking like that. So for me, your brother is the hippie.

Trevor Noah 1:07:45 Um, one thing I will throw into that-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:07:46 We gotta go, guys. The lights are leaving me

Trevor Noah 1:07:47 ... yeah, we'll, we'll wrap. We'll wrap. One thing-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:07:48 I'm reading late. This nigga's even calling me.

Trevor Noah 1:07:50 All right.

Anele Mdoda 1:07:50 Cut.

Trevor Noah 1:07:50 So one thing I will say to that is I think it's the same. Guys, one bully at my school terrorized three standards, like three grades.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:01 Yeah. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:08:02 One bully. Do you understand what reach that is?

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:05 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:08:06 One, guys. One bully would come to the tuck shop, or the cafeteria for those in America-

Anele Mdoda 1:08:10 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:08:10 ... and would take anything and everything, and do whatever they... So I understand what you're saying, but I go, I feel like we were also that generation. I watched people get terrorized by one bully, and a whole school could have done something and didn't do anything, and we're all just like, "That's them." You know, you're just like, pray to God they don't come your way.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:31 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 1:08:31 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:08:31 And so what I'm arguing is I don't necessarily think that they are softer or like, I just think that w- because it's so foreign to us, we see it as being more that way, but I don't necessarily think it's... And, and it's, and-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:44 It's the same problems, just a different iteration.

Trevor Noah 1:08:47 Yes.

Anele Mdoda 1:08:47 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:47 But that's how generations are.

Trevor Noah 1:08:49 Yes, that's what I think. And then I actually think the mental health thing, I think it is more important to look at our communities, like our real communities versus our social ones. I think we take for granted. Forget the bully, forget the social media, forget all of that. We take for granted what a physical touch was.

Anele Mdoda 1:09:06 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:09:06 A ph- yes, I got bullied, but at least my bully touched me.

Anele Mdoda 1:09:09 [laughs] Okay.

Trevor Noah 1:09:11 Do you know what I'm saying?

Anele Mdoda 1:09:11 Yeah. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:09:12 At least my bully-

Anele Mdoda 1:09:12 Even the lighter, like the-

Trevor Noah 1:09:13 At least I felt my bully's skin

Anele Mdoda 1:09:14 ... even the lighter, like the... [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:09:15 Let's go.

Trevor Noah 1:09:15 All right. You know what? We'll con-

Anele Mdoda 1:09:16 Wrap it up. Wrap it up

Trevor Noah 1:09:16 ... we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll continue this. We'll con-

Anele Mdoda 1:09:18 Wrap it up

Trevor Noah 1:09:18 ... go catch your flight.

Anele Mdoda 1:09:19 Bye-bye. Get out of here.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:09:20 Thank you. I love you guys.

Anele Mdoda 1:09:21 We love you so much.

Trevor Noah 1:09:21 All right, go catch your flight.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:09:23 Don't get bullied.

Anele Mdoda 1:09:24 Whatever.

Trevor Noah 1:09:25 Or if you do, make sure they touch you.

Anele Mdoda 1:09:27 The thing around t- touching is so that I can assess your strength, neh. Because when you, when, when you are bullying me and, and you touch me, I can assess, okay, maybe I can fight you one day.

Trevor Noah 1:09:38 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 1:09:38 But digitally, I don't know what your strength is.

Trevor Noah 1:09:40 Yeah, that, that is one thing I think that's worse.

Anele Mdoda 1:09:42 So I think that that's the only reason I- I'll agree with you with the bully touching you.

Trevor Noah 1:09:44 Okay, I'll throw you another one that you might agree with, and I mean this genuinely. Every kid who bullied me-

Anele Mdoda 1:09:51 Made you a better person

Trevor Noah 1:09:52 ... no, saw me as a human being, and I saw them as a human being because they didn't perpetually bully me.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:09:58 Mm.

Anele Mdoda 1:09:59 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:09:59 And they were not perpetually bullies.

Anele Mdoda 1:10:02 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:10:02 They were kids who played sports, who ate food, who caught the bus, who... And then they were the same way like your job doesn't define you, hopefully, in life. They were like, "No, I work as a bully."

Anele Mdoda 1:10:12 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:10:13 "But I'm also still a human being." They laughed. They... I remember walking into school, and the bully would be there and be like, "Trevor, you." And I'd be like, "Ah, bro, come on." And he'd be like-

Anele Mdoda 1:10:21 Again?

Trevor Noah 1:10:21 ... yeah, and then he'd be like, "Okay, but tomorrow." That for me, I don't see anyone doing online. Because I know this sounds like a crazy thing to say, but even though that bully was a bully, because we shared the same space, because we breathed the same air, because we looked into each other's real eyes, I knew who that bully was. I knew their name. I knew where they lived. I- they were a human being.

Anele Mdoda 1:10:43 But that's because with, with, with digital, everything is just fleeting and passing.

Trevor Noah 1:10:47 Yeah, and fake.

Anele Mdoda 1:10:48 But, yeah. But I'll raise you that people that I have, like, squared up with on digital, they are people that have become my friends because every day we're gonna have a go at each other.

Trevor Noah 1:10:55 Really?

Anele Mdoda 1:10:56 And, and, yes. And then after a while, you're like, "You know, you're not half bad."

Trevor Noah 1:10:58 [laughs]

Anele Mdoda 1:10:58 Because you must remember something. Somebody who's wrong can't be wrong all the time, and somebody who's right can't be right all the time.

Trevor Noah 1:11:04 Oh, I like that.

Anele Mdoda 1:11:04 Right? So even with people that I've disagreed with, you know, like aggressively on, on X, sooner or later, because w- you still get retweeted by other people, I'm like, "You know, I usually speak nonsense, but today I can agree with what you're saying," right? So we are agreeing with each other. It's just that with digital, there's this thing of I've said it. It's done. My phone is off. I'm gone, right? But now with your bully, they were coming back to you every day. You could, you... There was a chance of you seeing them again and again and again. So back to what you were saying about community. Think of the first days on Twitter. That was a community.

Trevor Noah 1:11:35 Yeah, it was.

Anele Mdoda 1:11:36 And I think right now it's just that you're dealing with the... You wouldn't allow anyone to just touch you like that, even in your physical sense when you're a child because you're like, "I don't know you."

Trevor Noah 1:11:45 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 1:11:45 I have a " [laughs] Who are you? Who are you?" Right? And I think that what you sh- you're going back to is that wherever you are, be it at work, within your family-

Trevor Noah 1:11:56 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Anele Mdoda 1:11:56 ... whatever, just find your sense of community.

Trevor Noah 1:11:59 It's, it's funny. You, you, you know, you say... Yeah, there's, there's something you stumbled on, I feel like, i- in, in, in one part that's really special, and that is we've lost that. Even, even fighting, at least you're, you are connecting with another person. I know it sounds crazy, but even having a back and forth-

Anele Mdoda 1:12:25 So-

Trevor Noah 1:12:25 ... at some point you will see each other as people.

Anele Mdoda 1:12:27 You know, um, when Sizwe almost quoted, uh, President Joe Biden [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:12:30 Yeah, Joe Biden.

Anele Mdoda 1:12:31 Let me quote President Obama at his first inauguration where he said, "I will listen to you, especially when we disagree."

Trevor Noah 1:12:37 Huh.

Anele Mdoda 1:12:37 Huh. You must listen to people that you disagree with, and that's the problem with, I would say, the Trump party is that there's just a notion that I don't have to listen to you because I disagree with you. But what if-

Trevor Noah 1:12:47 Yeah

Anele Mdoda 1:12:47 ... in the two minutes of me talking, you agree with 30 seconds of what I'm saying?

Trevor Noah 1:12:52 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 1:12:52 Now you're doing yourself an injustice of just totally disregarding me because I'm not a Trump party.

Trevor Noah 1:12:57 Yeah, but I, I think both ways actually, and I think that's... I've always said America's biggest struggle for me in its politics is that it is binary.

Anele Mdoda 1:13:05 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:13:06 So Americans think and have been taught that it is this or that.

Anele Mdoda 1:13:10 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:13:11 But now I realize, and I realize every time I come home to South Africa, I'm like, wow, we have such a complex... A perfect example is the I'm an ANC bitch.

Anele Mdoda 1:13:19 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:13:20 The woman on the FlySafair flight. This is a Black woman who gets drunk on a flight, starts berating the, like, the, the, the flight attendants.

Anele Mdoda 1:13:27 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:13:28 Throws things at other passengers, fi-... And now passengers, Black and white alike, team up against her to restrain her.

Anele Mdoda 1:13:35 Because wrong is wrong.

Trevor Noah 1:13:35 Yeah. But even then, the commentary of it, the pro-ANC peop- they're against her.

Anele Mdoda 1:13:43 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:13:43 And then Black people at large are against her, and white people. And I was like, oh yeah, I don't really see many of those types of things happen in America.

Anele Mdoda 1:13:49 I saw a white guy coming up for her, and he wrote a thread about what could have gone wrong, and we must understand. I was just like, okay.

Trevor Noah 1:13:57 Yeah, but-

Anele Mdoda 1:13:57 We have reached Melele.

Trevor Noah 1:13:58 But, but what... Exactly. So what I mean is, like, when you are told- ... that there is one of two solutions. You will then think that there's one of two solutions.

Anele Mdoda 1:14:06 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:14:07 And so you will be forced to pick between one of two solutions.

Anele Mdoda 1:14:10 And you-

Trevor Noah 1:14:10 You know what I mean?

Anele Mdoda 1:14:11 And, and you believe that if I pick one, I can't like certain elements of the other one.

Trevor Noah 1:14:15 Yes, because you've been told. Whereas-

Anele Mdoda 1:14:17 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:14:17 ... whereas when you come from a place where they go, "No, no, no, no, no." Uh, as you said earlier with the ANC, even the ANC was multiple coalitions in one thing, right?

Anele Mdoda 1:14:26 And that's what made it work because you know what you find then? You find accountability. And, and, and me constantly having to behave in a way that proves that my theory is the one that we should go with, right? Now, when, when we're all thinking the same, right?

Trevor Noah 1:14:42 Hmm.

Anele Mdoda 1:14:42 When we're all thinking the same, isn't that a dictatorship?

Trevor Noah 1:14:46 Yeah. No, this is, this is n- ... Actually, you know what's funny? You actually made me worry less.

Anele Mdoda 1:14:51 Oh, really? [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:14:52 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 1:14:53 Okay.

Trevor Noah 1:14:53 No, really, because I think to myself, even in the moment, uh, this is gonna sound like a crazy thing even for me to say to myself, but, like, the one upside of revolutions is that they bring people together.

Anele Mdoda 1:15:07 Uh-huh.

Trevor Noah 1:15:08 Or, like, one of the upsides, maybe, depending on where the revolution's going. But it is like it, you know, the people come together.

Anele Mdoda 1:15:13 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:15:13 Like, the ... You, you know, you think of, like, the, the Berlin Wall coming down. You think of, like, the Soviet Union collapsing. You think of Cuba. You think ... Uh, it, yeah, it's like it brings people together, and maybe that's what's ... Maybe that's what we're living in. Maybe life is a constant yo-yo of humans being pulled apart and then being pulled back together. And maybe we create things that pull us apart.

Anele Mdoda 1:15:37 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:15:38 Walls at our houses, you know, t- tinted windows in our cars, things that isolate us, and then something comes along, everything from an earthquake to a fire to a-

Anele Mdoda 1:15:48 And then you need that person that you were blocking out

Trevor Noah 1:15:49 ... and then all of a sudden, yeah, all of a sudden we're now back together. And it's, it's interesting to think of, like, us always being forced to come back together

Trevor Noah 1:16:00 whether we like it or not.

Anele Mdoda 1:16:01 Yeah, because-

Trevor Noah 1:16:03 Like, literally whether we like it or not

Anele Mdoda 1:16:04 ... whether you like it or not-

Trevor Noah 1:16:04 Humans are gonna get forced to be-

Anele Mdoda 1:16:06 ... we, we, we're gonna-

Trevor Noah 1:16:06 Yeah

Anele Mdoda 1:16:06 ... we're gonna be back here together.

Trevor Noah 1:16:07 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 1:16:07 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:16:07 At ... And we don't know what it'll be.

Anele Mdoda 1:16:09 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:16:10 Huh. I like that. See, once Sizwe left-

Anele Mdoda 1:16:13 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:16:15 ... my worries left as well.

Anele Mdoda 1:16:16 No, but you need the grim. [laughs] The Grinch.

Trevor Noah 1:16:19 The funny thing is he's not even Grinch.

Anele Mdoda 1:16:20 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:16:21 If he was the Grinch, it would be better. He's an AI.

Anele Mdoda 1:16:23 It's his delivery of it. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:16:24 You know like, you know like when you watch those movies where, like, where, like, the robot just says, like, straight up, they just go like, "Humankind needs to be eliminated." Then you're like, "Excuse me?" "It appears to me that being human is suboptimal." "Yeah, but I'm asking you what's a better way to do my garden?" "The best way is to not have a garden."

Anele Mdoda 1:16:40 It's gonna die anyway.

Trevor Noah 1:16:40 Wait, wait, wait, wait. "It's gonna die anyway, the same way you will die. If I end you, then you do not have to worry about the garden." Yo, yo, yo, Sizwe. Sizwe, I'm looking for a solution. "Yes, and I presented the ultimate solution to you." Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Anele Mdoda 1:16:53 Solution is death.

Trevor Noah 1:16:55 Yes. This is why you're a mom and he isn't.

Anele Mdoda 1:16:58 As a parent, you just have to be the eternal optimist.

Trevor Noah 1:17:00 Aw.

Anele Mdoda 1:17:00 And, and it-

Trevor Noah 1:17:01 And that's true

Anele Mdoda 1:17:02 ... yeah, and, a- and, but then it's so difficult to be the eternal optimist but then finding hard ... places to be hard inside of that 'cause you have to be hard at times because discipline has to happen.

Trevor Noah 1:17:13 Damn.

Anele Mdoda 1:17:14 You know? So you, you, you know what it is? It's a yo-yo.

Trevor Noah 1:17:17 Yeah.

Anele Mdoda 1:17:17 We, we separate, but we're gonna come together 'cause somebody has to drive you to school. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:17:22 I love that. Thank you, Anezi. Thanks for joining me.

Anele Mdoda 1:17:25 Thank you.

Trevor Noah 1:17:25 And thank you, Sizwe, in your absence. [outro music]