The hierarchy of engagement | Sarah Tavel (Benchmark, Greylock, Pinterest)

I think a lot of people think about markets almost like these, like, bodies of water, you know? And it's like, "Oh, it's this big body of water that we're going after." And I actually think that the most interesting markets, you have to think of them like currents, where you're just trying to... There's something happening in the market that's creating this current, where you can have, like, a plank of wood that you put on the, on the river and it's gonna pull you forward, versus a market that doesn't really have that momentum to it, you're gonna have to build, like, something really big and fancy to make any progress. And that's why we care less about market size, because really what you're looking for when we- you're looking at a market are: What are the dynamics of change? What's the current and momentum that's gonna pull the company and make the job easier for the founders to actually build something that endures?

(instrumental music) Today my guest is Sarah Tavel. Sarah is a partner at Benchmark, one of the most pre-eminent venture capital funds in the world, where she focuses on investing in consumer and marketplace startups. Prior to Benchmark, Sarah was the first product manager at Pinterest. And though I normally have a policy against VCs on the podcast, as you'll see, Sarah thinks very much like a product and growth leader, and I always learn a ton talking to Sarah about startups and marketplaces. We also learned in our conversation she used to play rugby, and was apparently one of the best tacklers in her league. In our conversation, we unpack two of Sarah's killer frameworks for building a startup: one, the hierarchy of engagement, which is an incredibly useful lens for trying to figure out how to grow and scale your consumer startup; and then the hierarchy of marketplaces, which is an incredibly useful guide for helping you build your marketplace startup. If you're building a consumer startup or a marketplace, this episode is for you. We get really nerdy and really deep, just the way I like it. With that, I bring you Sarah Tavel after a short word from our sponsor. This entire episode is brought to you by Gelt, your gateway to smarter tax solutions. Navigating the world of taxes can be complicated and stressful. Gelt is here to change that. They blend advanced technology with expert CPA knowledge to handle your taxes effortlessly. Whether you're a business owner, investor, or executive, Gelt is here to optimize your tax strategy and enhance your financial success. People working at companies such as Notion, Google, and Lyft have already experienced the Gelt difference. They've seen significant savings and a transformation in their tax handling. And now, it's your turn. Why choose Gelt? Because they offer year-round, proactive tax planning and clear, fast communication. With their technology, you'll stay ahead, making the most of every tax benefit. Ready to elevate your tax strategy? Visit joingelt.com/lenny today. With Gelt, you'll save more and stress less. Again, that's joingelt.com/lenny. Join, G-E-L-T, .com/lenny. Redefine your approach to taxes with Gelt. (instrumental music) Sarah, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.