Investigating The Incel Community - Naama Kates | Modern Wisdom Podcast 363

... overwhelmingly, a lot of them are just lonely. A lot of them have trouble with just platonic friendships too, and don't feel they have like a, a strong social group. And a lot of them just aren't happy. The vast majority of them have some kind of, like, either depression or anxiety. Something like 20% are on the autism spectrum, which is a really, really high percentage. And that's formal diagnoses too, not just that suspect that they are.

(wind blowing) Lama Kate, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me.

How did you get into researching incels?

I've been asked this many times, and I don't have a neat story as to how. Um, basically, I have a background in media. I'm a filmmaker, written things and acted, and, you know, music, everything kind of in that world. Um, and so I was, uh, finishing up a film when I started really getting into podcasts, just as a medium. Um, and the ones that I liked the most were true crime kind of stuff, as you know, Crawlspace, my, uh, network, um, is very true crime oriented. And, um, I was just listening to a lot of them, and I guess, kind of having just worked on a, a film that is very costly and, you know, labor-intensive, time-intensive, planning-intensive process. Um, also a visual medium, which I've since realized I'm much less visually oriented than I am in terms of words and sound and things like that. Um, and yeah, I was just kind of really appreciating the, the medium, like storytelling through that form was interesting to me. And around the same time, I think incels kind of made their way onto my radar, and, uh, and then I, I had a happenstance encounter with one, with an, with an incel, um, I think in 2017 or so. And it was just a random social media thing, and I started talking to this person, and it became very interesting, and I asked if we could record our conversations, and he said fine. And I listened to them back and found them interesting, and it just seemed like a good topic for a podcast, you know? I, I looked around for information about it, and there was hardly any at the time, and that's kind of how it started.

Well, I asked all of Twitter for their suggestions, and the two names that came up as, like, incel experts were you and James Bloodworth.

That's actually true. (laughs)

So you've managed to reach the pinnacle of what Twitter thinks an incel expert is.

Yes. I've also managed to reach the, uh, whatever you would refer to as the bottom of that.

Okay, bottom of the barrel and at the top, fine.

Yes. (laughs)

So that's, that's cool. All right, so how do you define what an incel is?

Well, um, there is the basic definition, involuntary celibate. An incel, someone who is involuntarily celibate. Um, categorically, according to the incel community, it would just be someone that, you know, doesn't have sexual or romantic relationships, despite wanting them. Um, so that's kind of the broadest definition, and, uh, there's also, like, a timeline limit for, for some groups. They say, you know, "You have to be a virgin." Some would say, "Well, it has to be six months or more that you're in this situation that you can say you're, you're incel, otherwise it's a dry spell or something." Um, so, so there's that. But beyond that, um, is are we talking about an, an incel, which is just someone who is that, whether or not they know it, um, or someone who recognizes that they are an incel? Um, that's kind of the second or middle of the road definition. And then the third, I would say is someone whose identity is, who, who's really kind of made their identity about that and partakes in the online, you know, community and the forums and the websites, as we all might be coming to know more about them now.