a16zThe New Media Advantage with Ben Horowitz and Marc Andreessen
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
50 min read · 9,897 words- 0:00 – 0:56
Intro: The New Rules of Media
- BHBen Horowitz
One rule of old media is don't be interesting [laughs] . Like, that's the worst thing you can do.
- MAMarc Andreessen
There is no way to get to anything resembling a story that you're gonna like through the traditional media anymore. Like, it's just basically not possible.
- BHBen Horowitz
Old media, you had very restricted channels with very restricted formats. New media is unlimited formats, unlimited channels, and the brand is now the person. The grand wizard of this is Alex Karp. If you watch his interviews, he never talks about Palantir.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Everybody just naturally thinks inside out, me and my company and my product out into the world. Don't think that way. Think in terms of like what are the most interesting things happening in the world, and then how do those things relate to us?
- ETErik Torenberg
Old media is defense-oriented. New media is offense. Talk, talk more about why that is.
- MAMarc Andreessen
There's still this anxiety that people have, which is legacy media somehow is like where the respectability is, the prestige is. I don't believe that anymore, and I think it's very important for people to kinda get that out of their system.
- ETErik Torenberg
So
- 0:56 – 2:41
Why Authenticity Beats Media Training
- ETErik Torenberg
first I just wanna say it's Gaby's birthday today. You know, I'm so excited the next one in five for many reasons, but one is that Ben had floor seats to the game six and wasn't gonna make it today, and so we're so lucky that we, we get to have Ben here. And, uh, you know, Marc, not a huge basketball guy, but he, uh, he did tweet about how Jalen Brunson, he had a comment where, that he operates purely on instinct, uh, not on introspection. And, uh, Marc, uh, appreciates that-
- BHBen Horowitz
[laughs] Retard maxing.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Obviously working.
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs] Exactly. Many people are saying, you know, across, uh, across industries. And so I actually think that's a pretty interesting segue because one of the rules of, of new media, um, Marc, that we were, uh, talking about with the CEO last week in our growth portfolio, is, uh, authenticity and sort of being able to have the same conversations on camera that you would have, um, in person behind closed doors. Um, why don't you talk about, uh, that, that a bit more and, and why that's so important, uh, to, to really nail in terms of nailing your voice and, and how to build that presence. 'Cause, and a lot of mistakes that founders will make is trying to be too buttoned up, trying to be too media trained, e- et cetera. As, as we uncover the new rules of new media, why- why don't you start there?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. So I had this really formative experience when I was younger, so in the '90s when I was coming, when Ben and I were coming up. Um, and so, you know, in, in, in those days it, you know, it was pre, pre-blogs, pre-YouTube, all, all this stuff. Um, and so in those days, you know, the assumption was 100% of what you did if you were running a company or doing anything, was you, you're gonna have to work through, you know, established media, legacy media. Um, and so, and, and then everybody would get, you know, of course, me- you know, media trained, uh, in how to do it. And, you know-
- BHBen Horowitz
[laughs] Most painful experience in the world.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Oh, yeah. So for people who haven't been through media training, it's actually-
- BHBen Horowitz
To watch yourself on TV, it's, uh... [laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah, so b- okay. So here's how media training work. I, I if they, if, I don't think they still do it, but do they still do it? You guys still do it?
- 2:41 – 6:59
Marc's Media Training Horror Story
- MAMarc Andreessen
Okay. Yeah, you probably do. Okay, so for people who haven't been through it, yeah. So it's like you get put in front of one of these, a camera in your face, and then, and then somebody like, you know, who's supposed to, who you think is your friend. Um, you know, they do like the full 60 Minutes interview with you. Um, and, and, and, you know, whatever. And then they, you know, do it for like an hour. And then, and then they literally make you sit there and watch it, which is just like the meanest thing you could do to somebody.
- BHBen Horowitz
And, and critique you. And you're looking at yourself fuck it up, and they're going, "You see how you fucked that up?"
- MAMarc Andreessen
[laughs]
- BHBen Horowitz
And you're like, "Wow, I'm really uncomfortable now. I'm never going on TV."
- MAMarc Andreessen
Exactly. And you're like, "Can we just fast..." No, you can't fast-forward. We're gonna watch the entire thing. Um, and then, and then maybe we'll watch it again. Um, and so it, it is, it is very revealing. Uh, and you discover all kinds of things about your personal affect, by the way, also. You discover all the things you do, all the extra words.
- BHBen Horowitz
How much you hate your voice.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yes, exactly. How much you hate how you look. I mean, it's incredible. It's incredible. And so if your ego just, uh, uh, uh, survives the beating, you go on to a successful career. Um, and so, um, you know, that's what you did. And, and then, and then, but it was always so weird 'cause it's like the result is just like, it, it just always struck me as just like the result is like, wow, you see like important people with important things to say on TV or whatever, they just seem like plastic people. They just seem like, you know, it's all very, you know, fake and staged. A- and then by the way, you know, this is like, you know, in the old days, so it's like, you know, 'cause all, all the, all the anchor people or interviewers are all like, you know, using, you know, anchorman voice.
- BHBen Horowitz
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, and then you get a CEO up there who just says like the most innocuous things possible. Um, and a lot of CEOs in those days, and by the way, still, they, they, they, they rank their success in, in, in doing an interview or giving a speech based on minimum, minimum controversy, right? So-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... they come off stage. I, I've worked with lots of CEOs, like they come off stage and they're very proud of themselves 'cause they didn't make any news, right? Um, so sort of like that. And so [laughs] ...
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah, that is the key.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right. So I go through the media, and so-
- BHBen Horowitz
All news is bad news.
- MAMarc Andreessen
So I, I get, we, we hire at the time, my company, we hired, you know, what at the time was considered the best media trainer, uh, who was a guy, um, uh, who, uh, had previously been a producer at Si- at 60 Minutes, you know?
- BHBen Horowitz
Was it Lee Zeldin?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Lee, Lee, Lee Zeldin-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... who'd been a producer. He'd actually, he was, he was actually quite, quite a well-known guy at the time. Um, he had been, uh, Lowell Bergman's producer.
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And Lowell Bergman became, uh-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... was it Lowell Bergman? No. Um, well, I mean, Mike Wallace. It was that whole complex. But he's like, he's like, "We're not doing any of the classic media training that we do." He said, "We're gonna do the thing that everybody always underrates, which is we're gonna get you to basically just say all the things in public that you would say if you were sitting having lunch with a friend." Right? And I remember like the back of my head like, you know, just like blew open 'cause it's just like-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... okay. A- and then, and, you know, and then immediately you're like, "Okay, why are we paying this guy that..." Then it's like-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... you know, 'cause that's like very obvious advice, and then it's like nobody else will give you that advice, and what's going on? He just said, look, he said, he said, he said the following. He said, "If, if you are on stage or in an interview and you are talking about something and you don't know that topic inside out already, like what the hell are you doing there?" So the only thing that you should ever be talking about is something that you know, you know intimately. If you know it intimately, you should be able to talk about it in a viscerally interesting, uh, way, um, you know, that really relate, you know, re- re- re- relays your thoughts on the thing. And you ought to be able to come across as a very interesting person because you're talk, you know, it's just like if you're sitting across the table talking to a friend. And so he's like, "My, my training is 100% to try to get you to not do all the other stuff and basically be able to do that." Um, and then, you know, the other part, 'cause it's, you assume the media's adversarial, the other part was then, you know, the, the, forget what he called the pivot or whatever, which was basically just the, you know, the thing of like you, you never answer their questions, you always answer your own questions, which is-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... the, the sort of-
- BHBen Horowitz
Which by the way makes it a little unnatural, right?
- 6:59 – 11:58
How the Legacy Press Turned Adversarial
- BHBen Horowitz
is offense.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- BHBen Horowitz
Talk, talking more about why that is and what that playbook looks like. One of the things we were talking about, Marc, also in that meeting is the importance of, of outside in, and situating sort of your story within the context of what's, what's happening externally.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. So the, the, the press in my view, and, and reporters get furious at me when I say this, which is why I know that I'm correct, um, uh [laughs] the, the pr- the traditional press, legacy press defined itself as having two functions, right? Which o- o- one was imp- was, you know, impartial journalism, objective journalism, sometimes called the voice from nowhere, which meant, you know, presenting both sides of something. Um [laughs] by the way, under the assumption that everything has two sides, and, and by the way, not more than two sides. And so that, there was always something a little bit weird about that. But, uh, you know, at least the idea of, like, showing an issue, explaining it, articulating it, letting different spokespeople, you know, for the different, different points of view actually say it. Um, and then they had this, the second mission was to speak, speak truth to power, right?
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah. That, that was the one that got in the way of the first, by the way.
- MAMarc Andreessen
That's the one that got in the way of the first one. So speak truth to power, and that became... The way, the way they ended up describing that was it was, uh, uh, ki- uh, uh, af-afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted.
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right? Uh, and of course, you know, at this point we, we know what that means. Um-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, and-
- BHBen Horowitz
Well, it devolved into, uh, power to truth. So it, it's like the press' way of intimidating you into not saying what you thought.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- BHBen Horowitz
Um, so.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. To, to, to-
- BHBen Horowitz
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
But, but, yeah, but, but, right, 'cause it's a line between, like... It's a line between actually objective and then, and then, and then activist, right?
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Some- somebody with a, uh, somebody with an agenda. Um, and so and I think, um, my view is what happened over time is that that second one just, like, swamped the first one, and then it just became the thing. And then, and then as a consequence, like, just the, the very nature of the interaction changed. And now, you know, I mean, the short version is I, I, you know, I, I did tons of traditional media between 1994 and 2017, and, you know, every once in a while there's a hit piece or a bad, you know, bad faith thing or whatever. But like, I don't know, 90% of the time I felt like it had been a good idea to do it, and I felt like, you know, I'd been given a, a chance to tell, tell my thing. By the way, for, for almost that entire run, uh, most people in the country and in the press thought startups were kinda cool, and tech was kinda cool and kinda fun, and it was kinda good for America that there were these tech companies, and the products were kind of fun to use.
- BHBen Horowitz
[laughs] I, I, I kind of remember those days.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. It's in the, in the, in the ancient mists of, of the past. You know, they, they just... You know, and, and it was exci- you know, everything was exciting. And then, you know, and then a lot of reporters and editors and, you know, they, they genuinely viewed it as like, "Oh, we need to, like, explain this to our readers and our viewers, uh, and really, really have this come across." And then as, as we like to say, like in 2017, it, things changed. Um, and basically since then, my, my view is that that sort of second mode of, of, of being, um, uh, you know, which is the, the, the sort of agenda-driven, you know, kind of really took over, which, which I think, a- and I think probably will never, never actually unwind. Um, and so it's just the practical reality is, we always tell our founders, like there, there is no way, um, to get to anything resembling a story that you're gonna like through the traditional media anymore. Like it's just, it, it, it's basically not possible. Um, you know, every once in a while there's-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah, you can land a story, but you, you can't run a strategy, yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. Like you, there, there... So people, people point to indi- individual, individual success, and I'll just be like, okay, that's the, you know, that's the exception that proves the rule. Like, you know, there's 99 others, um, you know, that are not like that. And so there, there just needs, needs to be a new approach. Then I think the new approach is, comes in, comes in two parts. It, it comes in, you know, as we all call it now, go direct, which is you have to tell your own story and increasingly through your own channels and through the channels of allies. And then the other thing is n- you know, new voices, uh, and new media. Um, and because, because the legacy press has gone so bananas, um, ob- you know, ob- obviously there's this just massive opportunity that's opened up, uh, you know, through, for, for the creation of, of new media, and it's just like the examples, ma- you know, many, many of whom are in this room, are, are just spectacular, I think, I think with what's happening. Well, it, it used to be... It's actually really funny. It used to be, even in the golden age of media, like Char- Charlie, like if you wanted to watch a smart person talk about something for an hour, it was Charlie Rose. And when I was a kid in the '80s, it was Charlie Rose at midnight.
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, it, it was something called the "CBS Overnight," uh-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... "CBS News Overnight," and he was literally on at midnight. And I would, and this is like, you know, pre the VCR, and you'd stay up until midnight to watch a smart conversation. And, and to go from that to what we have today with in the, in the, in the podcast world, in the Substack world, is just such an incredible advance, um, and going incredibly well. So I think the new media world is just supremely, you know, just incredibly high quality, doing incredibly well. Um, you know, but, but there's still this anxiety that people have, which is legacy media somehow is like where the, I don't know, I mean, it, it sounds so silly to say anymore, but like the respectability or the prestige is. And I, I at least, I don't believe that anymore, and I think it's very important for people to kind of get that out of their system because the world has changed.
- BHBen Horowitz
To your point, so we, so we were just in Washington, and so we were with, like, all, all the kind of Washington people, senators and whatnot, and, uh, I was asking them, you know, "What does everybody in Washington read?" And it's the Mark Halperin newsletter [laughs] um, which is new media. Uh, so it's, uh, I fully expect Axios, The Washington Post, and so forth. 'Cause by the way, the one holdout [laughs] from y- you know, kind of people in the firm on, like, old media as well, except for Washington, they all read this old, you know, stuff, and not even that is true. So, so I think Mark's right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- GGGaby Goldberg
Marc, you mentioned, um, going direct. We're certainly
- 11:58 – 20:20
Going Direct: The Founder Is the Brand
- GGGaby Goldberg
in the era now of going direct. It feels like it's table stakes for founders. Um, but I've talked to a lot of founders who feel that now they have sort of a second job of being the spokesperson for their company on top of running the business day-to-day. And you can even think of a lot of great founders who spent their lives or careers in a lab or staring at a computer, and this is not what they've been trained in. So I'm curious both of your advice for founders who maybe are uninterested in doing this, or they don't know where to start. Do they have to get good at it, or are there other paths for them to get their company the attention it deserves?
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah. [laughs] So, so I think this is tricky. So if you, if you just go, okay, old media and how did that work and new media. So old media, um, you had, like, very restricted channels with very restricted formats, um, and the brands were the companies. So, like, that, that, that's basically the setup. So y- yes, you could talk to The New York Times or CNN or whatever if you wanted to get the word out, um, but then you were forced into, like, a quote or a very short interview or something like that. And then you were representing, um, a brand that wasn't you, and that's just kind of how it worked. And so the whole media strategy basically was just get your name out there without tainting the company to the point where, like, it could never recover, uh, which is kind of how you got into this very defensive posture 'cause you, you can never take back anything. That was, like, a big rule in old media. Then you get to new media, and new media is so the opposite in that it's unlimited formats, unlimited channels, and the brand is now the person. So it's not like were people talking about w- like [chuckles] when every Democrat came out and was mad about SpaceX. They weren't. They were mad about Elon 'cause he's a brand. And the same thing, like, is, is it Palantir or is it Alex? Um, and is it, uh, Andre or is it Palmer? And that's just over and over again. So the companies that are winning in marketing, the brand is the person. And I guess, like, if you had another [chuckles] founder or somebody who is a really permanent fixture and not the CEO, you could imagine that person kind of getting that person off to the, to be the brand. But it's gonna be a person. Like, I, I don't think there's a way around that. And then the rule of new media is it has to be interesting because otherwise it's gonna get drowned out. And so you have to be-- It has to be a person, and that person has to be interesting, uh, which is why old media is so dangerous because the one rule of old media is don't be interesting. [laughs] Like, that's the worst thing you can do. Um, you'll, you'll F everything up. And so I, I don't think a company can get away without it. Now, like, if you look at, like, us as a firm, like, technically I'm really the CEO, but, like, Marc is more the brand, I would say, in terms of he just does way more media than I do. Uh, and that works, but it works 'cause it's Andreessen Horowitz, and nobody knows the fucking difference. On the outside, it's fine. Um, and there are... You can set up your company that way, where they don't have to know how you're run. Like, that's fine. But it's gotta be somebody who's there kind of forever with, uh, the organization. It can't be, like, the vice president of marketing who's here for a three-year run and then is gone. Like, that'll never work.
- ETErik Torenberg
Andre is another example.
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah. Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
One, one of my favorite, favorite things that happens about once a week is when I get-- somebody congratulates me on writing Ben's book. [laughing]
- BHBen Horowitz
Which he always takes full credit for.
- MAMarc Andreessen
I do, I do. It's just like I sh- I really poured a l- you know, all my blood, sweat, and tears into it. [laughs] I'm just, I'm so glad, I'm so glad that somebody finally read it. Um, [laughs] so, um, you know, look, so, so I think there's a, um, I think there's actually a technological ex-explanation for what Ben said that, that is actually, I think, quite important. So, you know, up until basically, what was it, Ben, like the 1930s or something, like, companies were not... Th-they didn't have corporate brands. You, you, you, you had... It was the Ford-
- BHBen Horowitz
Mm-hmm.
- MAMarc Andreessen
You had, you had people. You had, it was the Ford Motor Company.
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
It was the Ed-
- BHBen Horowitz
Thomas Edison, yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
It was the Edison Electric Company, right?
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
So the, the, it was just like Na- you know, name on the, it was literally name on the door. It just-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... it never even... I mean, I'm positive it never occurred to Henry Ford to name his company anything other than the Ford Motor Company.
- BHBen Horowitz
Well, he did have a company before the Ford Motor Company, right?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Okay.
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which was, like, I think, I can't remember. Somebody's gotta look it up. I think it became, like, Cadillac or something. [chuckles] Like, it was, like, actually, like, a, a car company that lasted. But he got, he was CTO. He wasn't CEO, and he got in such a furious fight 'cause he was a, uh, he was a hothead, Henry Ford.
- MAMarc Andreessen
He was. He, he was intense.
- BHBen Horowitz
Um, with the CEO that he quit his own company. [laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. But a lot of those are Chrysler, like Chrysler was a, were different guys.
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah. Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, you know, a lot of those-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... a lot of the, a lot of the car, or the car companies.
- BHBen Horowitz
Oh, yeah, they're all named after themselves. And I, I, I think actually maybe it was, like, Ford, and then he, when he quit, they renamed it. That, that could be it.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah, yeah.
- BHBen Horowitz
It was, like, something else. Yeah. So, so it was like, it was like name on the door.
- 20:20 – 23:42
Picking Your Battles: When to Fight Back
- BHBen Horowitz
somebody says something negative about us, we wanna respond. It's just like, it, it... But [chuckles] you, you have to determine whether, like, that's gonna improve your position or they're just feeding you bait to get you to basically highlight their stupid opinion.
- MAMarc Andreessen
It'll always improve your situation if I speak. [laughing]
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah, he always 100% wants to go back at them, and that-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yes
- BHBen Horowitz
... you know, you have to have some discipline, otherwise you just will spend your whole life responding. Like, the bigger you get, the more people come at you. So you know, it's kind of like the degenerate version is, like, dealing with the people who comment in Twitter. [laughs] Or X, sorry. Like, so the... I-if you start answering the X replies of people who have 50 followers, by the way, my father always did that, [laughing] then, like, the, th-there's just, like, a colossal waste of time, and you're amplifying somebody who has no audience. So like, what are you doing? And then those people shouldn't even be talking to you. Like, th-they didn't do anything in life to have the right to talk to you, [chuckles] um, but there you are talking to them and wasting your time. So, like, that's, that's the extreme degenerate case. Um, however, like, if somebody comes out with something and it hits, uh, and it's going after you, that's a actually a real opportunity to boost the brand, um, to come across with your own point of view, your own position, and this could be something in the media or just, you know, something somebody does in new media. Uh, th-that actually turns into a real opportunity, so a lot of y-you know, I would say a reasonable portion of the brand that we built was just responding to people attacking us. Uh, so that... I, I always saw that every time that happened as, "Great. Let's go." Like, I, uh, one of my favorite things I ever wrote was, uh, Instagram. [chuckles] We, we got into, like, this kerfuffle over Instagram with The New York Times. We had a conflict, whatever. It was a thing. But then I responded, um, and it was, like, the biggest, at that time, the biggest post I ever wrote, and everybody was like, "Yeah, fuck The New York Times." And so it was, it, it kind of took us from here to here in one shot just 'cause everybody loves a fight. So fights are good for brand building, um, but you just gotta pick the right fight to not just build somebody else's brand.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Well, to that end, uh, when I, of, you know, picking the battles, when I first joined, I would bring up these, uh, negative tweets we were getting and say, "Hey, you know, these anons are saying bad things about us," and you guys would be like, "Who cares?" Uh, or like-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... this is, in fact, part of our success means we're gonna have more and more people who are saying negative things, so.
- BHBen Horowitz
Well, specifically, they was, they were, they were, they were saying mean things based on the things that we were funding. And then they were like-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah
- BHBen Horowitz
... you know, it's, it was just the whole, the whole moment was just-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah, it's sloppy
- BHBen Horowitz
... so the, the-
- MAMarc Andreessen
You're funding slop.
- BHBen Horowitz
You're funding slop. [laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
It's like, bro, like it's great that we're funding things. [laughs]
- BHBen Horowitz
Yes. Yes.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Like, what... E-even if you think that, what is better in this world than the transfer of wealth from people who have a lot of money to people who have ideas and wanna build something? Like, e-even if we're wrong about everything, like, that's still good for humanity, so it's like, shut up, you hater.
- BHBen Horowitz
Yes.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Idiots.
- BHBen Horowitz
Yes. Hat-hater aid.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, so, uh, yeah, and then, um, uh, and then, uh, you know, that, th-and as, as, as Erik knows, like, my response was no. Like-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... th-th-that's a great thing to cr-cr- great thing to get criticized for is we're funding startups and supporting those startups. Like, that, that's fantastic.
- BHBen Horowitz
There's a kind of point within that that is also kind of a,
- 23:42 – 25:06
Why Being Polarizing Beats Being Liked
- BHBen Horowitz
an important change in new media, which is you really want people to hate you and you want people to love you, but you don't wanna be neutral. You don't wanna be lukewarm, um, because then you're uninteresting. So you're only in... You can't be interesting and not have people both hate you and love you, just 'cause there's too much... Y-No matter what you do, there's too much jealousy and just haterade in the world to not have it be that. 'Cause as soon as you get big, that's what happens. There, there's nobody... I used to [chuckles] when people used to get upset about, like, things that were written about us, it's like nobody's, nobody writes a puff piece on, like, Rupert Murdoch or Elon Musk or... Like, it's never gonna happen again. Like, it's over. When you get to a certain size, people hate you. Um, and that's good 'cause that means you did it. You did something important. You made a mark on the world. People care about what you're doing. And you have to take it that way. If you take it like, "Oh, I gotta stop doing that so people like me," you'll, you'll ruin your marketing.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. The, uh, Mar-Marc, you've sometimes said the term, you know, "They have all the right enemies." Uh, so it's picking, you know, the, the right people to hate you that galvanizes the people-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... to love you.
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
The, um, what about building, uh, the right marketing and media team in the age of new media? What have, what have you guys learned, or what advice do you have for, for CEOs in terms of making sure you get the right, the right personnel? Or what, what's a principle if you think about building that team?
- BHBen Horowitz
Well, the first principle [chuckles] is if you're trained in old media,
- 25:06 – 30:03
Hiring a Team Built for New Media
- BHBen Horowitz
it's very, very, very hard to do new media. Um, so you have to be a very exceptional person to make that transition because it's like if you spent 10 years doing old media, there are laws of physics, there are rules of the game, there's things that you do every single time in terms of, you know, like, [chuckles] you know, from vetting reporters to, uh, rude Q&As to this and that. Like, everything about it is opposite world. And so there are very few people who can go, "Okay, I'm getting out of opposite world and I'm going into new media world." So y- you just have to be careful about, for the new media side of what you're doing, to hire too much experience in not new media. [chuckles] Uh, it looks like marketing, but it's not the same. Uh, it's a completely new skill set. So I, I, I would say, like, that's, that's probably the thing that I'd worry about the most. Um, and then, you know, like with Erik, what we looked for when we brought you on, for example, is the best thing on new media is have you done it? Have you kind of built some brand on something and some audience? Do you know how to build an audience? Um, because that's the core, core thing. Uh, and if you can't do that, then, you know, it doesn't matter if you've got this skill and that skill and the other skill. You've got... You, you have to be able to deliver it end to end.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah. And in terms of people we've brought on, you know, like, uh, Alex Danco or, uh, Henry or, or, or Brent, you know, they, um, they were product managers or founders or investors, but they were obsessed with the discourse, the, the, you know, they were listening to the, the podcast. They were writing themselves. You could tell in the proof of work even though they weren't doing the thing.
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah, so story, like, storytelling on your new media team, that, that's such a good point. So the reason why Alex is so good is, like, he's a world-class storyteller. Like, so forget, like, just take marketing out of it for a second. Like, can you put together a story that somebody wants to read or listen to or whatever? And that's, that's a real skill, and, like, the elite level of that is way higher than the average level of that, and the people who can't do it, by the way, [chuckles] can never do it like that. And many people from kind of old marketing world don't have that skill because, you know, you always would rely on, uh, whatever the principal, the CEO, the somebody for that story. Um, but if you can build a team that's got multiple storytellers that are good, that's a huge power boost.
- MAMarc Andreessen
By the way, there's a really big disconnect. It goes back to the authenticity point. There's a really big disconnect in how people in the kind of media sphere think about this, 'cause every reporter listening to what we're saying would be like, "Oh, there's only two things. There's journalism and there's propaganda." Um, and we're in the, in the tr- the mainstream press, traditional press does journalism. Um, and the, and if you're doing any kind of, like, direct anything, it's, it's propaganda and you, you know, it's quote unquote, it's just marketing. It's just trying to, you know-
- BHBen Horowitz
Mm-hmm
- MAMarc Andreessen
... kind of sell something. Um, and, and like, I would say that's a divi- division distinction that we 100% don't agree with. Um, and, uh, you know, there's, there's a critique aspect of it, which is I don't think the press does much, um, you know, what, what even they would describe as objective journalism anymore. But the, the, the positive side of it is I think it goes right back to, uh, one of the reasons you wanna be authentic is because you want to actually have people understand who you are, um, you wanna have people actually understand what you do, and you want people to actually understand the a- the, the context within which you're, you're doing what you're doing. So you, you want to actually explain yourself, and you want to explain the world. Um, and, like, when we talk about storytelling, like it's, it's, it's very much not like storytelling, like a made-up story. It's storytelling of like, "Here's what's actually happening." Um-
- BHBen Horowitz
In an interesting way-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah
- BHBen Horowitz
... with tension, [chuckles] with a beginning and an end-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah
- BHBen Horowitz
... you know, that somebody is interested in following the whole way.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah, that's right. And so as a consequence, and we, we really look for this, is like when, you know, look, when, when Ben and I get, like, stopped on the street, like when we're just, like, we, we routinely get told like, "Wow, I, you know, I, I, I watched the podcast. I saw this interview. I read that post," this or that-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... um, from the firm. And 100% of the time they're like, "Wow, like that was great. I really understand what that topic is about." Right? And, and that, the, and, and that's, that's a very honest and legitimate and, you know, positive and worthwhile reaction to very honest, pos- positive, legitimate, you know, action, action on our part. Um, and I, and I just think, again, I, uh, maybe put the other, the other way to put this is th- this isn't just something people should do. This is, like, I think, a responsibility that, for people in our world and people in tech now to do, which is like the changes that are happening. I mean, of all times, the changes that are happening in tech right now are, are profound. Um, and they're really hard to understand from the outside, and they're really complicated. Um-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... and there's huge amounts of noise in the environment, and so actually explaining, uh, honestly, right, what, what's actually going on. And I'll, I'll just brag, brag on our team. Um, we, we, we put a Space- SpaceX post up today, um, which although it has my name on it, I had nothing to do with writing.
- BHBen Horowitz
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Uh, I, um, I cannot take any credit for it. Um, and it, it, I, I, I mean, the feedback we're already getting is it's the best thing anybody's ever written on SpaceX, and I, and I think that's true, and it, and it, and it literally is. It lays out, like, the actual truth. Um, and I, I'm really proud of that.
- ETErik Torenberg
That's awesome. I wanna close with some, uh, going deeper on some advice
- 30:03 – 33:47
The Founder Messaging Mistakes to Avoid
- ETErik Torenberg
for, for founders on, on g- on going direct. Uh, Gaby, I'll start with you. What are some mistakes that you see CEOs-
- GGGaby Goldberg
Yeah
- ETErik Torenberg
... making, uh, and things to avoid?
- GGGaby Goldberg
I, I would say there's, there's two mistakes that I commonly saw working with founders, and they're sort of related. The first one is it can be very easy to do this, too. It's a trap to fall into because the timeline feels so addicting, but a lot of founders really over-index on distribution and tactics before actually getting the message right. Distribution is really just a multiplier on the message, and so if the message is wrong, now you've amplified something that is either irrelevant for your business or not the thing that your audience needs to hear, or like, as we've talked about, maybe worst of all, it's uninteresting, and now you've told everybody that you care about that you're not very interesting. So in practice, a lot of founders would come to us and say, you know, "How do we go viral?" Or, "How do we get on Joe Rogan?" And if you actually think about it, you could get on Joe Rogan and then not say the right thing, and this is maybe the worst thing ever. And this is important because it applies not just to old media, but to new media, right? Like, you could go on Bloomberg or Fox and get the message wrong, and you could also do the same thing with new media or going direct. And so, uh, the, the first mistake is not actually spending the time to get the message right, and that's the highest leverage, most important thing to get right. And then from there, I guess the next mistake is actually just figuring out how to do that. Um- And the way that I saw that is you can get the message wrong if you focus too much on the inputs as opposed to the outputs or the outcomes that you wanna drive towards. And this is sort of paradoxical because the companies that are very successful struggle with this the most because there are a lot of interesting things that you could say about your company, right? There's, like, so many milestones. The mission is really compelling. There's, like, a lot of different things that you would wanna say, but depending on what you're trying to achieve, the thing that you wanna say should probably be different, right? Just because everything is true doesn't mean it's all relevant or strategic for your business. And so instead of starting with the inputs of, "Here's this huge mess of everything that we could say. Let's just say it all right now and hope people remember potentially the thing that we think is most interesting, but we haven't identified that thing," start with the outcome, right? Do we want to sell to a certain type of enterprise customer? Do we want to hire a certain type of engineer who believes a certain thing about us and our role in the market? So now you can kind of work backwards from there. Like, we know who these people are, we know what they believe, we know what, what they probably believe or need to believe about us, and we know what feels, in the discourse, urgent and timely and personal to them. And m- then we can work backwards and get the message right. And so then going back to point one, you pair that with really powerful distribution, and then you have a really winning strategy.
- BHBen Horowitz
And by the way, so, a, a really important point in what Gaby said is that really determines how you have to put the team together. Because if you put together a team that you can't have a conversation with where you're listening on your message and what you're saying, then that you've kinda done yourself a disservice. You need the team to help make the story great before they go... 'Cause it's real easy to go, "Okay, market this, you know-
- GGGaby Goldberg
Yeah
- BHBen Horowitz
... empty box." Um, [chuckles] there are a few marketers who could probably do that, but, like, it's, it's hard. Uh, so you, you really want the team to be invested in the message, and then all the variations you need to distribute that message are gonna be really good and on point. Um, but if the team is kind of-- doesn't have an opinion on message, that's very difficult.
- ETErik Torenberg
Mark, one of the things we, we said in that meeting with the growth portfolio company the other week was
- 33:47 – 41:26
Tell the Bigger Story: The Alex Karp Playbook
- ETErik Torenberg
what you admire about people like, you know, Alex Karp or Palmer or Elon or others is the ability to also, uh, not just focus on what, what they're doing, but also go outside in and talk about w-what's happening in the world and how do they situate their worldview, their, their company, their product, et cetera within that. Why don't you talk a little bit about that principle and how do people get good at it?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. So the most, uh, kind of, uh, common VC story, self-marketing story is, "Oh, I met this great founder, and we went on a walk, and then I called him eight times, and, like, I thought he was great, and I eventually convinced him to take money." The most common, you know, startup story is, "Oh, we're a brand-new company. We're all fired up. We're ready to go. It's gonna be great. We have a new product. You know, we hope you try it." And I mean, those stories just make you wanna stab yourself in the neck, right? I mean, like, as a, uh, in the aud- like it's just like, oh my God. Like, that is just the lamest story in the world. Um, and, and I-
- BHBen Horowitz
By the way, details. Well, one of the keys on this is, like, good storytellers have great details. Details matter a lot. And so the one thing about Mark's thing that makes it, like, so horrible is, like, no details, just like blah, blah, blah. I'm so great. Uh, you know, I talked to a founder. He really liked me. You'll probably really like me too. Like, who, who cares?
- MAMarc Andreessen
And, and it's, it's almost, right, it's almost this thing where they-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... they, and they come across as like, it's like fake humble, right?
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
'Cause it's just like, "Oh, I'm so-"
- BHBen Horowitz
Oh, yeah, and they, they say, "I, uh, hu- I'm humbly... I'm humbled by [laughing] ..."
- MAMarc Andreessen
That's the most fake humble thing in the world, "I'm humbled by."
- BHBen Horowitz
You're not even remotely humbled.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, and so, um, yeah. And so it's, it's just, it's just, it's just the worst. And, you know, there's, there's a whole bunch of critiques. Uh, it's, it's sort of, yeah, it's fake bragging. Um, it's, it's boring. Um, uh, it's, you know, it's egocentric, um, it, to, to no purpose. Um, and, um, you know, it's like passive-aggressive. Um, and then it's just, it's indistinguishable. Like, there's just a thousand-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... I mean, it's just, it's every, it's every single startup. It's every single-
- BHBen Horowitz
Everybody can gaze at their navel, right?
- MAMarc Andreessen
[chuckles]
- BHBen Horowitz
Everybody can do that. Like, there's nobody who can't do that, so that's, that's not a differentiated story.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. And so, and, and so that's, like, the default kind of narrative that people fall into. And then, and then it also, like, it feels, I think it actually feels like doing anything bigger than that is, like, arrogant-
- BHBen Horowitz
Right
- MAMarc Andreessen
... 'cause it's just like, who are we to, like, go tell some bigger thing? And I don't even know what the bigger thing would be. And, like, aren't the people who tell a bigger thing full of themselves-
- BHBen Horowitz
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... and trying to make themselves look even bigger? And so there's just this, like, really reluctance to kind of expand the, you know, kind of expand the, expand the, expand the telescope out. Um, so but what I always tell people is, um, y- y- like the exact opposite of, of, of all of that is true, which is, like, the story of you and your startup is not inherently a, an interesting story. But there is almost certainly an, an interesting story that involves your startup, and that story is... And this is sort of the cheat code of it. The story is something else in the world that's happening that is incredibly interesting, um, that your company relates to.
- BHBen Horowitz
And then, yeah, by the way, the grand wizard of this is Alex Karp. If you watch his interviews, he never talks about Palantir. The only thing he ever says about Palantir, Mark pointed this out to me, is ontology and orchestration, two words that nobody knows what they mean.
- GGGaby Goldberg
[laughing]
- BHBen Horowitz
And, and, like, uh, nobody knows what Palantir does as a result.
- GGGaby Goldberg
[laughing]
- BHBen Horowitz
But it doesn't matter because it's like, you know, like the future of the US military, Palantir. Like super intelligence, Palantir. Like whatever the story is that's, like, really good, like Alex will go tell that story. Neurodivergence. [laughing] I mean, like-
- GGGaby Goldberg
[laughing]
- BHBen Horowitz
... he's, he's just like, whatever is interesting, he'll just start talking about. And then because he's this founder of Palantir, the CEO of Palantir, like, that just works. And I, I say it like- Kind of to see, but like it's really a good strategy. Now, he takes it to the very extreme, um, but like that, that's the right idea, to find the most interesting story that you can, that you can plug your company into and then tell that story.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. Be- because, right, because what happens is then when something happens, right, when something happens in the world, something happens involving US military, AI in the military or this or that-
Episode duration: 41:51
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode XROaLetSxg0
