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ADHD Chatter PodcastADHD Chatter Podcast

3 Secrets To Manage Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria (RSD) - Matt Gupwell

Alex sits down with Neurodiversity Consultant, Matt Gupwell, to discuss Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD)

Matt GupwellguestAlex Partridgehost
Jun 3, 20241h 14mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 1:34

    Trailer

    1. MG

      I was struggling with RSD about being here today He's back

    2. AP

      Matt. Matt. Matt. Matt

    3. MG

      A Neurodiversity Awareness Consultant who advises global organizations

    4. AP

      and mentors individuals with ADHD and autism How would you explain the term RSD to someone who isn't ADHD-

    5. MG

      An immediate, intense, visceral feeling of rejection

    6. AP

      For those extreme cases, do you have any closing advice for someone who's in the pits of it, and RSD is really wreaking havoc on their life?

    7. MG

      What I was trying to come up with was a slightly different acronym, STOP. In that moment where something is said, what I try and do is think STOP, meaning S, literally stop. Do nothing, say nothing. T, try and pay attention to what's going on around. O is observe everything that's happened, what was happening just before, which then allows me to move on to P, which is process. And then ask myself the question, did I flash because it was appropriate, or did I flash because I've missed something? To give you a context-based scenario for that, yesterday [gentle music]

    8. AP

      This episode is dedicated to anyone who hates slow talkers. I know you've probably heard this a million times on other podcasts, but following or subscribing really helps the show, and the more followers we get, the more likely it is that I'm able to book new, exciting, and insightful guests for the show. So if you subscribe, I will continue to keep to my word and promise to never let this podcast be sponsored by Huel. Matt, thank you so much for joining us.

    9. MG

      It's a pleasure.

  2. 1:34 – 3:32

    RSD Explained

    1. AP

      How would you explain the term RSD to someone who isn't ADHD or neurodivergent?

    2. MG

      I've been giving some thought to this because it's about getting it really right for me. RSD is, for most people, an immediate, intense, visceral feeling of, of rejection, of hurt, of challenge based on something somebody says, something we perceive has or hasn't been said, that is instantly overwhelming. And that can be hard for someone that doesn't experience that, that level of emotion that quickly because it can seem so unrealistic, so out of context. But when you're feeling it, it is like the world is against you, that person is against you, that situation is against you. But I think the biggest thing I'd, I'd say to somebody who doesn't know what it is or has never experienced it is it isn't deliberate. It isn't chosen. It, it is there in our minds before we even know it's there, and then it's very, very hard to, to shake. So I think it's that understanding that it's, it's often based in our feelings, it comes from, from within, but it's so powerful and so all-consuming that it can make doing anything immediately afterwards incredibly challenging, um, which is why it causes so many issues.

    3. AP

      I know there's gonna be a lot of people listening who are gonna hear what you just said and find it incredibly validating to hear something that they probably experience quite often-

    4. MG

      Yeah

    5. AP

      ... be explained, and to know that they're, A, not alone, and B, there's an explanation behind the feeling.

  3. 3:32 – 10:38

    The difference between RSD and Emotional Dysregulation

    1. AP

      Is there a difference between RSD and emotional dysregulation?

    2. MG

      Yeah. So if you look at the clinical research, clinical evidence, emotional dysregulation or challenges with that is something that most people, neurodivergent or not, at some point may experience. We may all feel that we've, we've been discombobulated by something that's happened. Um, but very often, emotional dysregulation is something that we know, we recognize quickly, and we may be able to catch. RSD is seen very much as a, a very pervasive, very destructive, if you like, subset of emotional dysregulation. Um, and the difference is that, yes, it tends to occur mostly in neurodivergent conditions, ADHD, autism, anything rooted in anxiety, we tend to find RSD can, can occur with. But it's that, that thing again of the inability when it happens to recognize that it's happening is what makes it different to feeling dysregulated. It's, it's upon us and overwhelming before we've had a chance to even compute it.

    3. AP

      Are you able to share some experiences of how RSD has affected your life personally?

    4. MG

      [laughs] Well, here I am, sat with you, fourth time round, but when you asked me to do this, and ever since, even on an idyllic holiday in Italy, I was struggling with RSD about being here today. Because as soon as you asked me to talk about this, which is such a big topic, which is so rooted in clinical understanding, psychology, and, and almost psychiatry, there are so many elements to it, my RSD instantly said, "Why me? Why not Dr. So-and-so? Why not Professor So-and-so?" And I instantly began to tell myself what everyone out there would be saying when I gave my answers. I, I have created a narrative of rejection and of, of pushback and of who are you, how dare you in my head, to the point that I was genuinely looking for ways to get out of doing this because I felt so dysregulated. Um, and that's RSD. I know how to manage this better than, than most, fortunately. It's sort of my job to know that, and yet it has, it has eaten away at me because I've got this history of feeling like I'm not gonna be good enough, I'm not gonna do justice to it, and there's a weight of expectation for everyone that will listen and watch this. There's a weight of expectation that I get this right so that they can share it with other people, and so that it can help them explain it, and yet it made me feel rejected. It made me feel like almost I, I wasn't enough. And y- you know, you know this. I asked you when, when you said, "Would I do this?" "Are you sure?" That was RSD. That was my rejection saying, "Are you sure it's me you want again? Really?" So yeah, it affects me, and it has affected me like that. It affected me on holiday. You know, we [laughs] my wife will laugh at this, but on the penultimate day, my wife and I met two other English couples. Spent a lovely night chatting with them, talking about neurodiversity, giving advice. Wonderful. Got up the next day, everything was great, saw them around the hotel, and then in the evening there was a, a lovely sort of sunset dinner. Started at 7:00, and as ever, my wife and I were a little bit late getting down. And when we arrived, we got our food from this lovely buffet, and the first thing I see is the two other couples we'd met happily sat at a table for four. And my instant reaction, and I mean instant, was this volatile, angry, rejected, "Well, that's just bloody rude. Thanks, thanks for not making a seat for us." And my wife's response was genuinely, she looked at me and said, "Wow, that fast." I said, "What do you mean?" She said, "That fast and you're already making a judgment about them. Might it be that we just weren't there in time?" Don't care. Rah. Right? And that's insane. And, and it was proven to be insane because once that gala dinner had finished and once everything had been tidied away, we spent the rest of the night chatting with them, having a lovely time. But in that moment, with no context, I was rejected. It was all personal. And, and I, I describe that as the, the insanity of RSD sometimes.

    5. AP

      Mm. Well, the reaction can often be in contradiction to the evidence.

    6. MG

      Oh.

    7. AP

      The rational evidence.

    8. MG

      Yeah.

    9. AP

      Because go- take... Going back to the podcast example, yes, you've been on this podcast three times before. Your episodes have all done incredibly well. The clips that have gone on social media have been some of the best performing.

    10. MG

      Yeah.

    11. AP

      So you've got the evidence to show that you are credible-

    12. MG

      Yeah, yeah

    13. AP

      ... and, and the right person to come on, and yet still-

    14. MG

      I mean-

    15. AP

      ... that part of your brain is telling you otherwise.

    16. MG

      Yeah.

    17. AP

      Is it possible for someone to build up enough evidence to contradict that feeling, or is it too ingrained in their subconscious?

    18. MG

      I think we'll, we'll probably come onto this. I think in my experience in talking to other people, in the moment, the answer to that is probably no because of how we feel. After the fact, if we can look at it in the cold light of day, get the evidence, we can then start to go, "Ah, okay, hold on a minute. Perhaps that reaction wasn't rooted in fact." You know? So it... Th- this is a phrase I got when I entered into recovery from addictions, took the, from CBT, the difference between feelings and facts, right? RSD is feelings. It is not looking for fact. At that point, your f- your capacity to, to recognize facts has gone. But afterwards, we can sort of breathe it out and think about it. So I think it's very difficult in the moment. Whilst there are techniques we can try to employ, they're hard. But it's the understanding that if we, if we do the work each time afterwards, we can start to learn the signals, learn the triggers. And even if we're blessed with, with functioning interoception, this ability to, to understand what's going on inside, we can start to listen to our body and say, "Oh, I know that gut tightening or that head feeling," and try and do something about it. But in the moment, you know, it, yeah, it's really difficult.

  4. 10:38 – 11:59

    What are your biggest triggers?

    1. AP

      What are your biggest triggers?

    2. MG

      I suppose, still, going back to what we just said, it's this feeling of, "I'm going to get caught out. People are looking to trip me up. People are waiting to tell me I'm not good enough, I'm not, I'm not clever enough, what I say isn't right." Um, and so any shred of what that part of my brain perceives as evidence that feels like that becomes an instant touch paper for rejection, even if it's not true. Um, uh, so that's very much what it is for me. It's just this... It's waiting for me to confirm what I'm expecting to happen, and when it doesn't, I get even more confused, and, and then I really need to look for the evidence and go, "Oh, why was I wrong? How was I wrong?" Um, and, and that can be really exhausting. There's no two ways about it. But I, I spend my entire career now doing what I do, waiting to be caught out and being told otherwise. So it, it's, it's like a, I'm a walking oxymoron, or just a moron-

    3. AP

      [laughs]

    4. MG

      ... as, as other people have called me. But, you know, it's that thing of I'm waiting for it to happen, and it still hasn't, and yet I still don't believe it.

  5. 11:59 – 15:35

    Has RSD interfered with your working relationships?

    1. AP

      Has RSD interfered with your working relationships at all?

    2. MG

      Oh, blimey. Uh, yes, without question. Uh, so- I don't think it's possible to have had, from the age of 17 to the age of 36, I had 35 full-time salaried jobs, was sacked from 30 and quit the other five in a storm of foul language and, you know, bad feeling. I don't think it's possible to have experienced that and not have RSD somewhere in that. And now I look back, I could probably pinpoint between five and 10 of those jobs where my exit was completely down to the fact that somebody gave me some feedback or said something or challenged me in a way that triggered me. And because I didn't understand myself like I do now then, it festered, and it grew, and it became untenable. I got to the point where I was just so grim in that environment that there was no choice but to go. Um, so yeah, in that scenario, it certainly did. Like I say, now I do what I do for a living, I'm waiting to be caught out. And, and, and I think that all comes down to, again, something that I've been recognizing a lot with RSD in the research, which is, yeah, it is very much a rooted in self-esteem issue. It's rooted in the experiences of growing up and living undiagnosed or struggling, that perhaps we are more pron- not perhaps, we are more prone to feeling rejection or almost seeking rejection because we expect it to happen. So yeah, wi- without question, it, it has done and it continues to.

    3. AP

      What are the most intense feelings of RSD you've ever experienced within yourself or within someone you've spoken to?

    4. MG

      With me, I, I can range everywhere from rage, pure rage, to s- sadness, all the way through to suicidal ideation because I feel so rejected, uh, and have done many, many times. Um, it's gone the other way, where I've felt so rejected, I almost go into a state of, um, deliberate, kind of euphoric, "Well, screw you then. I'm gonna do this." And that, that then plays into struggling with addiction 'cause the RSD, I know for the longest time, if I felt triggered, just gave me an excuse to go off and act out. It gave me a, a reason in my head. Not true, but that's how I would play. "Oh, well, I may as well then. There's no point." Um, interestingly, you know, I run a WhatsApp community for other people with ADHD and, you know, other conditions, and I've asked this question of them, and these kind of things come up a lot. It's this anger, and it's sadness, and it's confusion, and it's just rage a lot of the time, that, that people themselves are so upset about, but feel out of control of, feel like it's, it's not within them to control, and we're desperate for the control, and we're desperate not to feel it. So I think there's a lot of similarities between people. Um, but it's interesting that it depends on what the trigger is, what the, what the scenario is that's triggered the RSD as to what the feeling then is as well.

  6. 15:35 – 26:46

    RSD in relationships

    1. AP

      When that rage strikes, are there any coping mechanisms that you've learnt that could help someone listening spot their RSD and defend against it?

    2. MG

      Ugh. I, I think, again, I- I'll, I'll come back to when I was a younger man, you know, teens, early 20s. Those were the times where I felt at risk of RSD or when I was struggling, that I would drink heavily, smoke heavily. I would just go out and just let loose as a coping mechanism, and I think I hear this a lot, people indulging in whatever their coping mechanis- mechanisms are, or withdrawing completely from life because they feel like it's not worth being part of life at that point. Um, so yeah, I, I, I think a lot of the time it makes people want to run away from the scenario 'cause it's so difficult to stay and face it because it feels that awful. You don't want to talk to that person. You don't wanna take time. Now I know, and again, there's a lot of evidence to say that CBT-based therapies, DBT, et cetera, do help. Um, so there are, there are processes we can put in place to try and go, "Oh, I recognize this." But it is difficult to get good at catching that. What I find now is I may still react, but I catch that reaction quicker and will apologize straightaway and say, "I'm sorry. I know that was unrealistic. I know you didn't mean that." And I can do that quicker now than I ever could before, but I think that's because, again, it's my job to think about this day in, day out, so I feel like [laughs] I have a weight of responsibility to get better at it for me and for my wife and my family, but it, it does take practice.

    3. AP

      I've noticed that in my relationship, when it... When I get triggered, and my partner says something, and I can feel that rage, I put things in place. Like, I take my own advice. I try and put a break between whatever was said-

    4. MG

      Mm-hmm

    5. AP

      ... and me saying anything, or I remove myself from the room, but that still doesn't stop the shame and almost the embarrassment that I feel because I've had to do that-

    6. MG

      Yeah

    7. AP

      ... as a 35-year-old man, and, and the optics of what that might look like to my partner, even though she does have an understanding of ADHD and RSD, she knows what I'm going through. There's also a big sense of embarrassment for me that I'm having to put this process in place because I can't handle my own emotions. So I suppose, is there any advice for someone who, who might feel a bit of embarrassment or shame even when they're implementing the advice that you're talking about and others talk about on various podcasts and platforms?

    8. MG

      Look, the, the short answer to that is, that embarrassment is there, it's real, because it is embarrassing. You know, you talk about the optics and how they look to your partner or how they look to my wife or anyone else's. It is embarrassing to think, I am a grown man. I'm 50 years old. I shouldn't be, quote-unquote, overreacting anymore, right? But the thing I say to everyone when I mentor people, when I, when I train organizations, is this is not a deliberate choice to feel RSD. You know, I think it's one of the, the few times where I would say, if I gave people a magic wand and said, "If I could remove RSD, would you let me do that?" I think most people would probably say yes, or at least dial it down, right? Because of that embarrassment. So it's acknowledging that it's embarrassing for a reason, because it's not within your control. You haven't made yourself react like that on purpose. But actually, and I'll... Again, I'll come onto this later. I think it's acknowledging that with your partners or with your, whoever you're with and saying, "Look, I'm, I am embarrassed by that. I am sorry. I didn't mean that. But I need to do that removing myself. I need to create that space to prevent this from escalating." And it's better the devil you know, isn't it? You know, we either stay and, and it gets worse, or we say, "I'm gone." Go do whatever we think we need to do, and then come back calmer. Now, that might seem frustrating to other people, but I think it's important that they recognize that's actually the safety valve. That's, that's very hard to do. It's very humbling to have to do it, and actually it's better that you choose to do that than it is you stay and you just then react, and the situation gets worse.

    9. AP

      Do you think there needs to be, like, a certain amount of emotional maturity within a relationship to manage a relationship when RSD is present? And what I mean is, say I have a flare-up and I remove myself from the situation, then I go back half an hour later. I have to communicate what's just happened with my partner-

    10. MG

      Mm

    11. AP

      ... because I feel like that's a requirement of the process, to sort of put some closure and understanding between what just happened and the now-

    12. MG

      Mm

    13. AP

      ... for us to move forward and grow and understand what just happened. But if there's not a, um, a certain amount of emotional maturity and willingness to have that conversation, and for the other partner to not have that willingness to learn-

    14. MG

      Mm

    15. AP

      ... do you think that's a really red, a real red flag and a, and a risk area for a relationship?

    16. MG

      I think it could be. Um, you know, f- it... Let's say we're at the very beginning stages of a new relationship, and this has happened a few times. If we aren't at a point where perhaps we're fully open with each other and we're fully comfortable with each other, I can understand how that could be the difference between that relationship succeeding and not. Take it a step further, once we've been in relationships for a while. I mean, I've, I've been with my wife now since I was seven- no, 18, so we're talking 31 years this year, right? She's had essentially the bulk of her lifetime dealing with this, and she has ADHD as well, right? But she's had the bulk of her lifetime getting used to this, dealing with it, and yes, it's had effects. But there is that emotional maturity, I think, to use your words, that, that she now can, she can recognize, again, it's not deliberate. It's annoying, it's frustrating, it's exhausting, it's challenging, but it's not on purpose. I think the sooner you can communicate that you're putting in those checks and measures, the better it is for the relationship going forwards. It took me decades, right? So my wife had decades of going, "What the hell is going on with you? Why do you keep doing this?" And because I didn't know what I didn't know, I couldn't explain it. With all of this information, podcasts like this and, and others out there that are doing their best to explain it, I think communicating what it is, why it is, and what we're trying to do could be the difference between building that emotional maturity quicker and, and, and making it a stronger, healthier relationship as well.

    17. AP

      Mm-hmm. Are there any other short-term strategies that someone might use to handle their RSD?

    18. MG

      Again, I... Everyone I've spoken to has said a similar thing. The problem with asking those kind of questions is, in the moment, when you are triggered, what you're not doing is thinking clearly. You are not in the place to make really good, processed decisions. But the only way to get better at that adage for life is practice, and, and to in the cold light of day with your partner say, "Look, I, I think we know that I do this now. I think this is a thing. There are days I'm gonna do this better than others, but it's never personal." I kind of call it going full Good Will Hunting, right? It's kind of saying to them, "It's not your fault. It is not your fault. It's not your fault." Because it can feel like, "What is it that I'm doing that keeps making you react like that?" It's not you, it's this. And the more we can help them understand that, I think the, the more accepting partners may be able to be of, "Okay. Well, I know it's not personal." It, again, to them might feel like it, but I know it's not. So let's keep practicing this. And once, once we start to see the, the fruits of that practice, right? And the fact that we're managing it better time and time again, I think the relationship, again, has a chance to strengthen, to grow, to develop in a, in a healthier way.

    19. AP

      Such a good point where you said that it's all well and good when you're triggered, and suddenly you'll go into management mode, and you'll say, "I've got told on that podcast that I need to put a break. I'm gonna go for a walk and calm down." But what you just said, the truth is, a lot of the time when you're in that moment, you... It's so visceral. It's so intense.

    20. MG

      Mm.

    21. AP

      You just see red. All logic goes out the window.

    22. MG

      Mm.

    23. AP

      And sometimes the impulsivity takes over, and you say the nasty thing.

    24. MG

      Yeah.

    25. AP

      Do you think there's a bit of, uh... Should the person apologize when that happens, or is it about building that foundation of understanding, where you can then go back to your partner and say, "We know why that happened. Let's take steps to build on it"?

    26. MG

      I think there's a risk here. If in the moment you have the capacity to flare up and then instantly go, "I'm sorry," there is a risk that then your partner or whoever you're facing will start to go, "Well, hold on. Was that real? Can, uh, are you actually trying to control this?" Right? I think it's, it's a challenge to say that. In some ways, it's acknowledging that, going, "I, I, I've gotta go." Right? "Just give me five." Coming back and saying, "Okay, I've, I've tapped, I've breathed, I've done whatever. I'm sorry I reacted. It wasn't you." But that's when the facts have gotta come into it. We, again, we'll probably discuss this later, is that the apology has then gotta come with, for us, "What was it you meant to say? What was it you were trying to get across to me? What was actually happening? What were the facts? Let's remove the feelings from it, and then we can sort of reverse engineer the situation and go, 'Oh, I reacted like that because it felt... The reality was this.'" That's where the apology, I think, is probably more useful.

  7. 26:46 – 32:04

    Long term strategies

    1. AP

      And are there any other longer term strategies for RSD?

    2. MG

      Talk, talk, and talk some more with your partners. If we're talking, you know, romantic relationships, it is keep the dialogue open. Recognize that, again, it's not deliberate. It's very hard to control, that often it's instant, and keep talking and, and trying to get better at it. In the workplace, outside of romantic relationships, I'd give similar advice. However, one thing I talk about a lot when I'm, when I'm teaching sort of businesses is this concept of psychological safety. It's very hard for someone to feel psychologically safe when, let's say, they have a boss or a colleague that triggers them quite frequently, and that might just be a difference in communication styles. That might be a difference in delivery styles. It could be anything. It's very hard to feel like you can go into work thinking, "I'm gonna get through today without a flare-up," when you know it happens repeatedly. And the psychological safety can only be created if we can have some really open dialogue, however that's created, whether it's through professionals coming in and teaching you about it or, or, you know, lunch and learns or whatever, where people say, "RSD is..." and, "In the workplace it looks like..." and, "This is how we can build strategies to try to prevent it." You know? It's, it's... The workplace thrives on feedback, performance management, et cetera. That was genuinely quite often the reason that my RSD kicked in. "Oh, Matt, it's time for your performance review." And it always, always, always had the same format. We'll start with a little bit of positive. "Right, so what we need to work on..." By that point, I've forgotten the positive. Don't care. You're now attacking me, and it's then about saying, "Well, how do we change how we deliver feedback? How do we change how we give that feedback?" And again, it's being mindful of, how's that gonna feel when you say to that person, "Your performance has been X, Y, Z this month," or this year or whatever it may be. It's trying to make it very factual, very clear-cut. Um, but I think we're quite a long way from that being the norm in every organization. There are organizations doing it really well, but we're a long way from it being commonplace.

    3. AP

      And that level of feedback, that strategy, does that apply in a romantic relationship, say, between a neurotypical person and a neurodivergent?

    4. MG

      Yeah, I think it does. It has to. Um, but there is a flip side to that. So, so going at it from, from, you know, "I'm the ADHD-er, and my partner isn't" ... Even though they are. Their perception of why do you keep, quote unquote, "flying off the handle" at the smallest thing is going to feel a particular way to them, right? Now, we need to explain, "Look, it's not you. It, it's an instant thing. I'm working on it." But I think we also, as the person with, have to talk to our partners and say, "How does it feel to you when that happens? What do you think? What goes through your mind? How do you deal with it?" You know? "Is there anything I could say afterwards that, that would help you more?" Because the conversation, I think, can get lost in, "Oh, it's the ADHD, and I can't help it, and I didn't mean to," and all of that is true. But it's really bloody exhausting for your partner as well. It is mind-numbingly exhausting to have that happen again and again and again, and there needs to be that dialogue and that conversation of, "How does it make you feel? Are you okay? Are you... Do you understand it's not personal? Honestly, it's not personal." Right? And I think that's really important because a phrase I use day in, day out when I teach is, ultimately, we're talking about people, some people with some extra bits and pieces, some people without. A relationship is two people coming together because there is a connection, and it's remembering that RSD or not, there is and there was at some point a connection that drew you together, and remembering when you work well, why you work well. Because we need to focus on what makes us happy, what makes us comfortable, so that when we struggle, it's easier to come out the other side of. Um, but talking, I think, is, is the single best way to do that, and talking regularly, to the point even of daily, just to have a bit of a catch-up and a brain dump and, "Look, how are you doing? How are you doing?" I think that's so important.

    5. AP

      I interviewed a fantastic relationship therapist called Karen Docherty, who specializes in neurodivergent relationships, and I asked her if she thought that it was difficult for the non-ADHD partner to understand RSD, and she said it was the hardest thing for a non-ADHD person to understand what an ADHD partner experiences.

  8. 32:04 – 33:40

    Is it hard for Neurotypicals to understand RSD?

    1. AP

      Do you think it's hard for a non-ADHD person to understand RSD?

    2. MG

      If they've never experienced it before, yeah, it just looks volatile. It looks extreme. I think once it's happened more than three or four times, it's a, a, a, a point of saying, "Hold on. What, what is this? Why is this happening every time?" You know? "You didn't load the dishwasher." Boom. Okay, that's a really strange reaction to you didn't load the dishwasher. Why? "Uh, I'm sorry. It's just, I feel like that's an attack." And I'm only using that example 'cause that's one that happened yesterday at home, for example, right? And, and it's that thing of, "I'm sorry. I know it's an overreaction. It just, it feels like a dig." So yes, initially I think it's hard, but it depends how open we are in those relationships as well. I think it's, it's about sharing everything that's you, and if you're in a relationship with someone and you're sharing your soul and you're, you, you wanna spend forever with them, there's a point where you have to face the difficult just as much as you have to face the good. And then it's about understanding and, again, talking and talking and talking, and knowing it won't always go well. RSD, by its very nature, means sometimes things feel like the wheels have just fallen off the relationship, but it's that cold light of day, step back, deep breath [inhales] , "Are we okay?" I think that's important.

  9. 33:40 – 37:46

    Washing machine of woes

    1. AP

      I wanna do the Washing machine of woes, Matt.

    2. MG

      Oh.

    3. AP

      Every week, I ask my Instagram community to submit their biggest ADHD woes, and I put them in a washing machine because, for me, the washing machine signifies one of my biggest woes, and that's memory.

    4. MG

      Yes.

    5. AP

      Always forgetting my damp clothes in the machine, and I read it out and to see if we have some advice for them.

    6. MG

      Okay.

    7. AP

      This week in the Washing machine of woes: "I keep being told off by my boss, and I can't work out if it's personal or if my RSD is causing me to take her criticism too personally. Is there a constructive way of bringing this up with her in a way she'll be open to understand?"

    8. MG

      Now, there are two ways my brain instantly approaches this. The first one is assuming your boss knows you have ADHD, if you are open about this at work, you have a bit more of an ability to say, "Can I have a chat? I'm going home. I'm struggling to decompress because what's going through my mind is the way you keep talking to me, and it feels like this. Is it possible you can help me understand, again, the facts rather than what I'm feeling? Is it possible we can look at a different way of you giving me that information?" Is the boss communicating by email, which for me is the single worst communication method in the world, because you've got no tone of voice in an email or a text. So you've got an opportunity there if your boss knows. If your boss doesn't know, if you're not open about your ADHD, that's trickier. You can still ask the same question, but it may be followed up from them with, "Why? What, why are you saying that now?" Okay? "Is, is this about something else?" That's about not outing yourself, but kind of going, "Look, I struggle with something. This happens. It's RSD. Let me explain it, and when you give me feedback like this, it feels... And those feelings then cause..." It, it's very much rooted in this, this theory that comes from old computer language of if this, then that. If you can explain how you're feeling to, to your boss in a if this, then that, is there a way we can change one of those elements, there's a chance it might improve. But conversely, you have to be careful in not making it feel like an attack on their capability and on their management style and on the way they speak. They may not be aware that that's how you feel, and they may be mortified when you say, "It makes me feel like this." "Oh, God, I didn't mean to do that. I'm so sorry." They may just say, "Tough." That's how we do things. It's this horrible phrase. Well, that's, that's the way we manage in this business. So it's about explaining what it makes you feel and why, and just asking the question that, "Is there anything you think we can do?" Um, I'll go back to this, depends on how aware and well-educated your, your business is. It takes a brave person with ADHD to be the person that raises, "Look, you know, this RSD thing may be affecting more people than me, and..." So it's choosing the timing carefully and being very clear about what do you want to get from that. You know, as an adult, "Oh, it makes me feel like this" could feel a bit, oh. It's, "It causes" is different. When you give me feedback and it makes me feel like that, it causes me to shut down, feel like, what's the point? You know? That, that has more impact on productivity and the work you might be doing. So it's thinking about what you wanna get across and delivering it in a way that they will compute and understand as well.

    9. AP

      I've always struggled to explain or to recognize how I

  10. 37:46 – 43:25

    What is Alexithymia?

    1. AP

      feel. Listen, when I got diagnosed with ADHD, I also got diagnosed with something called alexithymia, and every time I try and understand or Google what it actually means, I get no clarity.

    2. MG

      Yeah.

    3. AP

      And if anything, I just get more confused. Can you explain what the term alexithymia means?

    4. MG

      So it's broadly described as an inability to recognize and process emotions that we are having as a person. So that could be happiness, anger, sadness, joy, despair. It's our, our brain's wiring, meaning that we don't compute what that feels like. Now, the issue with that is if we're struggling with that, and we're in a conversation, it can feel to someone else like we are not giving what they perceive as the right response for that situation. Why don't you look angry, happy, sad? Because your brain doesn't compute it. The other side to that is it can also make it difficult for people with alexithymia to understand other people's emotions and to process what they are feeling as well. So if we look at that scenario of from the washing machine, the boss giving feedback, if that person had alexithymia, they might not recognize that the boss was frustrated, and so they may not respond in a way that their boss is expecting because they... You know, there's a perception of, "Why can't you see how frustrating this is?" 'Cause that doesn't compute. So it's very difficult if we don't respond to and recognize our own emotions to then know how to respond. Um, and it can look like a lack of empathy. It can look like being cold or, or rude, or any number of words, and it's actually none of those things. It's none of those things at all. It is just that faulty wiring in that, in your brain, those neurotransmitters not giving you the right signals at the right time to go, "Oh, that." It, it can be helped. We can learn. We can get better at it with help, with conversations, okay, understanding it. But ultimately, what most people who struggle with it say is they do better with facts than they do with feelings.

    5. AP

      Mm. I relate a lot to that.

    6. MG

      Yeah.

    7. AP

      And is alexithymia different to sociopathy?

    8. MG

      Oh, very. Yeah. So look, not a, not a doctor, not a clinician, but I'll summarize this, I think, really succinctly with one word, choice. Alexithymia is not a choice. You do not choose not to be able to understand or feel in the same way as someone else, and it's not about a lack of empathy, which means you are not doing it to gain anything or for any reason. Sociopathy, on the other hand, is completely choice. It is a deliberate, calculated disregard for other people's feelings and emotions, psychological safety for generally a unpleasant, nefarious gain, to gain something over someone else, to control someone else. So whilst you could on the face of it say they, they could look similar, they're so, so different because it... Again, it's the choice. A sociopath is choosing to gain by just disregarding you. Anyone else with alexithymia is not choosing to. You just aren't able to.

    9. AP

      And if you're having a conversation with someone who does have alexithymia-

    10. MG

      Mm

    11. AP

      ... how can you explain yourselves, your emotionally driven selves, in a way that they do understand?

    12. MG

      Facts. Just, just start with the facts, not the feelings. Okay? I'll go back to that phrase, "If this, then that." Right? It's process, isn't it? This happened, which caused that, which is why I said that. Do you understand that? Oh, okay. Yes. Rather than, "I'm really frustrated because I asked you to send me that email last Friday, and you still haven't sent it, and that means that that piece of work can't be done, and now I'm really pissed off." Sorry, what? No, forget, forget the feelings bit. This is about going, "Okay, I can't..." The flip side to that is bear in mind you can have ADHD, struggle with RSD, and be alexithymic. So now there's a real melting pot of confusion for you to, to unravel, right? 'Cause you're still gonna feel RSD, but if your partner or colleague then says, "Well, how do you feel about that?" Um, now am I gonna guess at what you want me to say, hoping I guess the right emotion? I'm upset. Or am I gonna say, "Uh, uh, actually, hold on a minute. I, I don't understand that question. I'm really sorry, but I don't process emotions like you do." So it's, it's challenging in that regard as well. Um, but we've gotta look at it from both, both sides of that conversation.

  11. 43:25 – 45:43

    Theories as to the genesis of RSD

    1. AP

      Have you got any theories as to the genesis of a person's RSD?

    2. MG

      This is where I'm going to refer to my notes, if I may, 'cause not a doctor, but I have been doing a lot of research into this. There are theories, yes. The main theories that are currently shared are that it could be a biological vulnerability, which is combined with early re- rejection experiences. Uh, it could be connected to attachment theory, which is one that resonates, uh, more with me, meaning that RSD may stem from insecure attachment styles, uh, which haven't developed as children. The other is that it's an evolutionary perspective, okay? So that, that fear or that heightened rejection may have stemmed from a protective place way back when. Um, there are people looking at various neurobiological factors, talking about the different areas of the brain that it may come from. Uh, and then the other theory's about cognitive bias, so, um, which means people are based in anxiety. They're sort of anxiously expecting or perceiving that X will happen because. Um, now all of those make sense to me. All of those theories make sense. A couple of them, though, I think make more sense than the others. Um, so if we, we look at the, uh, attachment theory, one of the most common things, particularly young girls are diagnosed with before ADHD, is attachment disorders. Now, it stands to reason, if we think about that, that they may be displaying what looks like attachment disorders because actually it's their RSD being triggered so often, and them not presenting in a, quote-unquote, "classically ADHD way." Therefore, ah, well, you've just got attachment issues. So I think there's a lot of sense to those. Um, the difficulty with all of those theories is they're very hard to quantify. They're very hard. There's research being done, but everyone's experience is so uniquely personal, it's very difficult to-

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. MG

      To figure out what, where it sits, and it could be a combination of them all.

  12. 45:43 – 51:09

    The HALT Theory

    1. AP

      What's the HALT theory, H-U-L-T?

    2. MG

      So H-A-L-T, HALT. Um, so this is about some of the strategies, right? So HALT was based in CBT, um, and it's about recognizing the triggers that lead to emotions.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. MG

      So HALT generally means hungry, angry, lonely, tired. So it's about saying, "Why have I reacted like that and reached for," I don't know, the cigarettes, the alcohol, the food, the whatever, right? Am I hungry? Am I angry? Am I lonely? Am I tired? Is that why? Is that why I reacted badly? As a concept to help RSD in the moment, that's not really that effective because by that point, it doesn't matter what the trigger was, if that makes sense. We, we, we're sort of beyond that. So CBT theories, DBT, dialectical behavior therapy, um, and, and very... Sort of counseling styles like that are really useful, but I think for RSD, what I was trying to come up with was a slightly different, um, approach. So I came up with the, the sort of, um, an acronym STOP, and this is something I try to do, sometimes effectively, sometimes not. So in that moment where something is said and I've flashed, and it's always when I've already gone rah, what I try and do is think STOP. So STOP meaning S, literally stop. Do nothing, say nothing. Take a breath. T, just take 30 seconds and try and pay attention to what's going on around me. Pay attention to, what does my wife look like? What do my kids look like? What's, what's happened? Give myself some time to, to observe things, and then the O is observe everything that's happened. What was happening just before? What was I doing just before? What was on my mind? Which then allows me to move on to P, which is process. Process all of that and then ask myself the question: Did I flash because it was appropriate, or did I flash because I'd missed something? So to give you a context-based scenario for that, yesterday I was at home. My wife struggles with migraine. She's perimenopausal. She, she struggles quite frequently. She'd had a day sort of not doing very well with migraines. Both my sons had had a day predominantly doing not a great deal, and I, I thought, "I will cook," and I just spent all afternoon cooking dinner. Now, to my credit, wife's credit, the kitchen was spotless before I started, but I cooked. I got myself frustrated and worked up 'cause nobody was there, and by the time I'd cooked and served dinner, I was already agitated. I was already wound up 'cause nobody comes down on time, and I'm doing it all on my own, and rah, rah, rah, rah, rah. We ate dinner. It was fine. True to form, my sons disappeared back to their bedrooms, 'cause that's just what they do, and I went and sat down with my wife in the conservatory, had a after-dinner coffee, and then she got up, walked into the kitchen, and the first thing she said was, "Oh my God, it's never-ending. The kitchen's a bomb site." Now, objectively, I had tidied, but not well. But in RSD mode, I heard that and flashed. "Well, I'm sorry, I've bloody spent all afternoon cooking. Rah, rah, rah, rah." And then sh- whoa. RSD boy, it wasn't an attack.

    5. AP

      [laughs]

    6. MG

      I was just saying it was spotless, now it's not. I'm grateful for you cooking. And I caught myself and went to go, "Rah," again, and then kind of went, "Oh, no, wait, wait a minute. Stop." And I just went through that process in my head. Whoa. Listen. Pay attention. Process. "Okay, I'm sorry. Yes, I know. The kitchen was spotless before I started. I just haven't quite got round to tidying up yet." And her response was, "I know. I'm sorry. I didn't mean that to upset you. I was just commenting on the facts." Now, like I say, I, I, w- I'm able more to do that now 'cause I've practiced it, but it's that madness again of all she was commenting on was, "Gee whiz, look at the state of the kitchen." But because what I wanted, what the, the monkey brain wanted was, "Thank you for cooking the world's best sausage and mash. It's such a complex Sunday dinner for you to have cooked. We're all so grateful," and I didn't get that, that comment was absolute knife through heart rejection. Insanity, but I'm able to now step back and go, "Maybe the flash happened because it's instinctive." Being able to process it quicker meant that, you know, it was all deescalated, and th- that's a thing where we have to learn how we respond, how fast we respond, and have things in place.

    7. AP

      Mm. Absolutely fascinating and incredibly useful. I want to pick your brains on the link between RSD and social media.

  13. 51:09 – 56:33

    Your ADHD item (juggling balls)

    1. MG

      Mm.

    2. AP

      But first I wanna find out about your ADHD item. I ask all my guests for an item that most represents ADHD in their life, and you've said some juggling balls.

    3. MG

      Yes.

    4. AP

      So I'll pass these to you, and if you could kindly explain why juggling balls represents ADHD in your life.

    5. MG

      [sighs] Okay, so without juggling, necessarily juggling balls, but without juggling, I wouldn't have had most of the experiences that I've had since the age of 16. I wouldn't have had a career that I had before this one. In fact, I wouldn't have this career if it wasn't for juggling, doing what I do now. So I learnt when I was 16 out of belligerence. My brother learnt before me, and I couldn't have that. I'm very competitive, so I had to teach myself to juggle. In true ADHD form, once I'd learnt to juggle three balls then four, I moved onto knives and fire and broken bottles and anything that was more dangerous because kind of fun. Um, I then took that to the next level and busked my way through college so I could pay for some bills and, and stand in Birmingham juggling. Um, but what juggling actually taught me along the way was it taught me an awful lot about the way my brain worked, what engaged me and what didn't, where my ability was, where my ability wasn't. It taught me an immense amount about other people. So in 2009, I became a full-time entertainer. Uh, 2010, I set up a business with, uh, a wonderful lady called Leanne. We set up something called Jester Academy. We were both jesters. That's the job. We set up Jester Academy as a sort of circus skills company, going round schools, running workshops, et cetera, which meant that between 2009 really and 2021, um, I taught a phenomenal amount of people circus skills, and broadly speaking, I've taught about 80,000 people to juggle three balls.

    6. AP

      Wow.

    7. MG

      Around the world. Now, in teaching people to juggle, something fascinating happened, 'cause when I learnt to juggle, there was no internet. It was all through books, and everyone taught the same way. So it was all to do with picture a TV screen, picture a box, and I didn't learn very well that way. When I started to teach, what I did was pay attention to what people told me before they picked up the juggling balls. "I've never been able to. Somebody's tried to teach me, and I can't. I've got no coordination." And I would apply a different way of thinking, which I defined as ADHD or autistic thinking and go, "Okay, let me do this a different way." I developed my own style and method of teaching, and from the day I changed the way I taught, I taught more people more consistently day in and day out than I did doing it the traditional way. But what it taught me was about this thing about how people process information, the different speed at which some people process, how some people need visual connections, this brain-body connection, and every time I taught someone who'd told me they weren't going to be able to juggle, they were amazed and said, "Why are you able to do that?" It's because my brain's wired differently. What that led to was when COVID hit March 2020, all of my in-person work walks out the window. I'm sat at home going, "What the hell do I do to pay the bills?" And I started teaching juggling online, firstly to friends and family, then moved into a corporate market. Taught about 10,000 people online throughout COVID, mostly using rolled up socks, but what I always did was weave into my juggling teaching- ... my ADHD, my autism, the way I thought, why the way I thought juggling worked, how I used it as a form of mindfulness. And what that led to was the first client saying, "You seem to understand ADHD. We've got some people in our organization who are struggling. Could you come and talk to us?" And from there, that gave me the impetus to launch Think Neurodiversity as a consultancy, and kind of haven't looked back since. Um, and it, it literally is all down to juggling. It's, you know, i- it's important to me, and juggling, riding unicycles, slacklines, stuff I still can do and enjoy doing, have meant so much to me because they gave me a sense of identity that I... Without that, I don't think I'd have had. I became known as a teacher. I became known as someone who could explain difficult things really well. Not something I ever said, something people said about me, and, and I just leaned into that, so that's how I teach when I, when I'm teaching neurodiversity awareness now. I try to play the s- apply the same methods I taught juggling to that. So yeah, juggling is... Juggling is life, as was once said on a pair- a set of juggling balls I was bought.

    8. AP

      [laughs]

    9. MG

      "Life's a struggle if you can't juggle."

    10. AP

      Well, they will sit proudly on the shelf of past ADHD items-

    11. MG

      Hurrah

    12. AP

      ... as a fascinating reminder of how, um, how wonderful your brain is.

    13. MG

      It's, it's, it's weird, I'll give you that. [laughs]

  14. 56:33 – 59:18

    How RSD is depicted on social media

    1. AP

      Going back to RSD, Matt, um, what is the problem with how RSD is depicted on social media, like TikTok and other platforms?

    2. MG

      Okay, this is only my opinion. I am a grumpy 50-year-old, he says.

    3. AP

      [laughs]

    4. MG

      What I see very often is that it is... It's displayed in a way that's either comical, it's either quirky, or it's so generic that it doesn't do a good job of helping anyone. Um, to put it in sort of sales terms, it doesn't tell anyone so what. So I see... I was looking on the train coming up, I see lots of posts about, "RSD is this," and, "Did you know this was RSD?" And every single one I looked, I'm going, "And? So what? Tell me what. Tell me what does that mean. Give..." Now, I know TikTok really isn't the place to get sage advice, but what I now see is a lot of not quite accurate information, not quite factual information being parroted and parroted and parroted and parroted. And what that means is then people are having these perceptions of, "Oh, well, that's RSD." Eh, it's not quite. It's in the same way, you know, you have people talk about everything, like, that's nearly, not quite. Um, and, and for me, it, it frustrates me 'cause I think, "Oh," what's gonna happen now is at some point you're gonna realize that's not what it is, not, not completely, and you're gonna realize the way that you describe it, 'cause someone else described it that way 'cause of the sort of trickle-down effect, was probably not the most helpful it could've been. The flip side is it opens a conversation for a lot of people. I can't deny that the more people talk about it, the more people that are desiring to will go off and maybe do more research. But I just think there's lots of, there's lots of big people with big names, and, a- and I just kind of wanna say, "You know what? You've got all these followers, you've got all this reach. Please, before you post, can you think, 'So what?'" 'Cause if you just tell people it's a problem, they don't know any more than they did before the video clicked on. You've gotta give a so what to this. So that, I think, is the biggest problem with it, is that it doesn't go anywhere. But it's social media, isn't it?

  15. 59:18 – 1:02:24

    The positive side of RSD

    1. AP

      I- is there a positive to RSD? Is there a way that the, the many people who have a hard time with it can take that energy and turn it into a positive?

    2. MG

      Well, William Dodson, who came up with, coined RSD, um, I think late '90s, if my memory's right, said there was. Now, he said there was, um, a theory of received reward euphoria, I think, RRE, which is this concept that just as we take rejection like a knife through the heart, when we get praise, that feeling of euphoria can last for days. It can carry us for days. It can make us feel like we're on top of the world, you know? And he said they are literally two extremes of the same thought process, the same way our brains work. So if we look at that as a concept, yes, there potentially is. Go back to the evolutionary theory of RSD for a minute. Go back to, you know, caveman. No one living in a cave was feeling rejected when a saber-toothed tiger was attack- attacking, right?

    3. AP

      [laughs]

    4. MG

      "Oh, God, he attacked me." No, they weren't. What they were thinking is, "Saber-toothed tiger." They were on guard. And so the theory says that what's happened evolutionary-wise is that concept of being on guard has, has changed and evolved to be waiting for perceived rejection. "Oh, I've been attacked. Oh, I wasn't a good enough protector," right? The flip side being if we can take every positive that we've got, and when we feel down or when we feel like we've been rejected, if we can start to remember those positives and why those positives occurred- We can remember that actually we're not rubbish, we're not terrible, we're not useless. We do do things well. We've had- got evidence that we do things well. It's just that the way our brains have evolved, particularly with ADHD, is we're quicker to go negative than we are positive, I think. So it's about recognizing that we can find the positives in things. And ultimately, look, if you have a flare of RSD, and you do deal with it, it's okay to then, to yourself say, "Actually, that could've gone a lot worse. That could've gone an awful lot worse. I dealt with that okay." Does that mean I can give myself a little bit of a private pat on the back and go, "Maybe, just maybe I'm getting a handle on this more often than not"? That then feeds into it. So I think it, it's about how we use the information that RSD gives us. It will always likely be there. It is something we'll likely always struggle with. It's taking that process and going, "But so what? Did I deal with it? Yeah, happy days, I dealt with it." So I think there are positives to be drawn from it, we just have to look harder for them.

  16. 1:02:24 – 1:08:46

    Closing advice

    1. AP

      Have you got any closing advice to my community? And I put out a poll saying, "What's your biggest ADHD struggles?" And overwhelmingly it was RSD, and-

    2. MG

      Yeah

    3. AP

      ... the, the, the, the, the flesh out of that was comments such as, "It's debilitating. It's ruining my life. It's, it's stopping me from doing... for going th- for things that I want to do." So for those extreme cases, do you have any closing advice for someone who's really, really in the pits of it and RSD is really wreaking havoc on their life?

    4. MG

      Yeah. So I have several, if I'm honest. The first one, and I say this a lot, and, and they, they've got it within what you're doing and what I try and do, is find your tribe. Find other people that get it. Find other people that believe it, for one. Okay? Start by doing that, because being able to talk about it with other people that get it can be so validating, even when it's extreme. So find your tribe. Find people that believe you and will listen to you and, and kind of go, "Yeah, I, uh, that... Me too." Secondly, whether it's at the milder end of RSD or those extreme cases of it's debilitating, in the periods where you're not being debilitated by it, and I talk about this when I do sessions on finding your purpose with people, try and start with the theory of, "Okay, what would get me out... If I could do anything, what would get me out of bed in the morning? What would bring me joy? What would bring me happiness? What would bring me peace of mind?" Right? And, and spend some time leaning into that, and knowing that if you could do that thing, unfortunate that this is it, despite me struggling with this, this is my thing, right? I'd get out of bed for this. But if you can find that thing, know that the frequency of RSD might start to reduce. The frequency of the intensity might reduce. So it's about understanding that we need to reframe the why, and think about the strategies for how do I manage it? And more importantly, and I think the, the final one is, hard as it feels, and it does, God, it feels hard, it does feel debilitating, it does, remember that actually some of the strategies that we can employ that can help can be really straightforward. You don't need a psychology degree or a psychiat- psy- psychiatry degree to employ them. You just need to invest in yourself in the time to try the STOPP theory, to try those processes of go, "Right, hold on. What happened? Why? What could I do differently next time?" And if you're with somebody, if it's a romantic relationship, if it's your children that are triggering whatever, talk. Please, please talk. The more you can remove your own shame and guilt for the way you respond, the more chance you've got to overcome it. But the more you sit in your shame and guilt, and you feel that's your only choice, the more RSD will bite and will bite and will bite. Because it will just keep triggering that rejection. So talk about it. Be open about it. Almost accept it, acknowledge it. Help other people do it for you. And in doing that, you'll slowly but surely start to remove some of its power.

    5. AP

      Mm. How does someone go about, some very baby steps, how someone could go about removing that shame?

    6. MG

      Okay. Number one, it's not you. Number one, it's not you. You're not the only person this happens to. Right? So that's number one. Know that it, this happens to other people as well. This is part of ADHD. Undeniably it's part of ADHD. So give yourself some, some credit that you're not the only person that's reacting like this. And acknowledge what it is you feel guilty about, or what you feel the shame about. Right? Th- this is something, I think the more I've been in recovery from addiction, the more I've learnt to lean into my, my guilt and shame about things and accept it, and go, "Okay, but what does that tell me? What's the information?" Right? If we can lean into, "Why am I embarrassed when I do this? What do I feel guilty about?" And have the conversations about it, the more we can go, "Okay, I don't like this. I don't want this to happen." So it might just give us the impetus to, to, to keep finding solutions. And- Another thing that I think is really important is recognize that the first thing you try might not be the answer. The first strategy you employ might not be the one that rids you of RSD for the rest of your life. In fact, it's highly unlikely to be. You might need to go through multiple different strategies. Something may work for six months, and then all of a sudden stop working. That's okay. That's ADHD again. That doesn't mean it's broken. That doesn't mean you're broken. It just means you need to try something else to reach the same sort of end result. So the shame and guilt is often 'cause we feel we're not in control of it, and whilst it feels like that, there's that feeling thing again, the facts are, and we know the facts of this, we can get control over RSD more often than not. But we have to do that when we're not triggered. You can't learn in the moment. You, you can't be in the middle of a, an RSD flare-up and think that's the prime time for you to learn how to control it. It's afterwards. It's when you're happy. It's when you're calm. That's when you can start thinking about it, and as uncomfortable as it might be to go, "I really don't wanna think about it when I'm happy," that's the time where you'll get the most learning and be able to figure out what strategy works.

    7. AP

      Very thoughtfully and intellectually answered. Thank you very much.

    8. MG

      It's all right.

  17. 1:08:46 – 1:14:35

    Your most impulsive thing

    1. MG

      I try.

    2. AP

      We have a closing tradition on the podcast, Matt, a bit of fun at the end, and that's to ask what your most impulsive thing you've ever done is.

    3. MG

      [laughs] How long have you got?

    4. AP

      [laughs]

    5. MG

      [laughs] Oh, blimey. I've gotta pick one now. Most impulsive. Okay. Uh, I was cabin crew for British Airways for five years. Um, and in 1995, I spent about 98 days in Africa, Harare, Lusaka, Lilongwe. Um, and I got a reputation for being the juggler and the fire breather 'cause I was a fire breather as well. Uh, and I had a friend, uh, in a place called Lilongwe, who ran a little bar. Uh, and whilst at the bar, already spectacularly drunk, he and a few of the other crew I was with were, were sort of goading me, saying, "Oh, I'd love to see you breathe fire. Can't you, can't you breathe fire?" "Uh, well, I can, but I need stuff." "Well, what stuff do you need?" I said, "Well, I need something to breathe fire onto. You know, like, I normally have a torch." Okay, so they fashioned a torch out of some rolled up newspaper. That'll do. I said, "I need fuel." "Ah, what fuel do you use?" I said, "Well, yeah, I dunno. In England, it's just called paraffin." "Oh, I know where we can get paraffin." Impulsive. They put me in the back of a utility wagon, drove me to the petrol station half a mile up the road, got a jerry can out, not cleaned, not emptied, just the jerry can that was in the back of the wagon. I went up to the guy at the desk and said, "Do you have kerosene?" "Yeah, kerosene, yeah." "Which pump?" "That pump." "Great. Can I have a gallon of kerosene?" "Yeah." Filled it up, and he then said, "Oh, what's it for?" I said, "Oh, I'm gonna put it in my mouth and breathe fire with it." And I'd, I'd never seen a person of color go ashen. I mean, genuinely, it was, it was the strangest... Shaking, going, "Uh, well, s- what?" I said, "I'm gonna put it in my mouth, light a flame, and breathe fire over you." "No, please. Please, do not..." "It's fine." And lo and behold, he followed us back. I went back to the, the bar, got everyone out in the car park. Without any thought of safety, took a slug of kerosene from a dirty jerry can, blew it onto a torch, and 20 foot of flame came out my mouth, and I got free beer for the rest of the night. Um, so I think that would probably count as quite impulsive 'cause the risk of dying from carcinogens and burns and everything else were quite high, but there was no filter. I was given the stage. Uh, you know, give me the limelight. I'm here. I've juggled on top of a jumbo jet for-

    6. AP

      [laughs]

    7. MG

      Not, not when it was moving, obviously. I wouldn't be here. When it was stationary. I've done that for the same reason. I just, you know... I, I still to this day frequently have no filter for safety or regard for what other people perceive as normal.

    8. AP

      I'm, I'm tempted to sort of bolt on another question now, and that's to ask, what, what do you think is your biggest sort of ADHD-related injury?

    9. MG

      Um, well, actually connected to fire-breathing again.

    10. AP

      [laughs]

    11. MG

      Not realizing that when you've got a streaming cold, uh, and you're coughing and sneezing a lot, that you shouldn't breathe fire.

    12. AP

      [laughs]

    13. MG

      So that, that happened when I was 19, um, and I was performing, and as I put the flame out, I sn- sneezed or coughed something. Like maybe if you... Do you remember the old Bunsen burner thing at school?

    14. AP

      Mm.

    15. MG

      And if you did this where you made the flame go back in?

    16. AP

      Yeah, yeah, of course.

    17. MG

      That, but with human. So I have flame coming out, [imitates flame whooshing] and it just goes [imitates flame whooshing] straight back in, so I had second degree burns all down my throat and top of my chest, um, which meant I couldn't talk for about three weeks, which my then future wife was delighted about. Um, [laughs]

    18. AP

      [laughs]

    19. MG

      And then, uh, in training to go on Ninja Warrior in 2017, I spent a day at a ninja gym. Don't ask, look it up. Um, and after an eight-hour session when I was impossibly tired, there's an obstacle called a rolling log. Imagine turning that table on its side.

    20. AP

      Mm.

    21. MG

      As a drummer, you stand on it, and you walk on it, and it rolls. On a concrete floor, I saw it, and the guy that owns the gym, I'm sorry, Nigel, actually said to me, "Please don't. You're too tired. A bad idea." "No, I'll be fine." Jumped on, and was fine going forwards, and then as I approached the wall that was sort of in front of me, realized, "I have no idea how to get off this thing. I don't... Nobody's taught me this." And instinct kicked in, and I just leaned back, fell onto a concrete floor, floor and destroyed, oops, destroyed my elbow in three separate places, meaning I couldn't go on Ninja Warrior in that season and had to go on the next. So, um, yeah, that was just a... You know, if I'd listened and just said, "Oh, okay, you know best," I would never have broken my arm, but if I didn't break my arm, I wouldn't have got a bye to go on Ninja Warrior, and then I wouldn't have been on national TV and been in the PR team for Ninja Warrior for the next two and a half years. So, you know, it's impulsive, but it all worked out okay in the end. Thank you.

    22. AP

      Love to see your life insurance premiums and if they're higher than the other. [laughs]

    23. MG

      You wouldn't. [laughs]

    24. AP

      Matt, a huge thank you because RSD is, is a topic that is, is close, hugely close to me.

    25. MG

      Yeah.

    26. AP

      Like, it's massively debilitating for me personally. So personally, thank you, and I know from the audience as well, just having listened to the demand for an episode like this, um, thank you for covering it so delicately, so respectfully. I think it's gonna be a fantastic resource for many. So thank you very much.

    27. MG

      I hope so, and I try, and, um, yeah. Thank you for having me. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 1:14:35

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