ADHD & Relationship Issues - 17 Ways To Fix Them | Karen Doherty

Alex Partridge 0:00 And out of the thousands of neurodivergent couples that you've seen, what are some of those common problems that they come to you with?

Karen Doherty 0:06 Mood dysregulation is a big one, and included in that is the RSD. Communication issues. The way that the different brains process information, that difference is difficult because people sometimes assume that the other is the same as them. Because they love them so much, they just assume, "Oh, well, we're the same." And it's just not. Even if you've got two NDs in a relationship-

Alex Partridge 0:27 Mm

Karen Doherty 0:27 ... doesn't necessarily mean that those NDs are complementary.

Alex Partridge 0:31 Karen Doherty is a leading neurodiversity couples therapist- Who's helped thousands of people with ADHD-

Karen Doherty 0:36 Experiencing difficulty in their relationships.

Alex Partridge 0:39 Her mission is to help those with ADHD be understood by their partners-

Karen Doherty 0:43 And build happier relationships. Do you know how many couples I see that actually have no idea of each other's needs? It's remarkable. Whether they're neurodiversity or not, the unification of the thinking, the talents, the skills, the quirks, just being able to unify over these things. But that conversation hasn't come into the maelstrom of life.

Alex Partridge 1:03 You're in a relationship and, for whatever reason, things have gone sour. The person goes into problem-solving mode and thinks, "Let's have a child." Is that a good idea? This episode is dedicated to anyone who has ever been in a relationship and didn't feel heard. Karen, thank you so much for joining us again.

Karen Doherty 1:22 Thank you for having me. So nice to be back.

Alex Partridge 1:24 I suppose it's quite a, a foundational question to start with, Karen.

Alex Partridge 1:29 What's your mission? What do you aim to achieve with the work that you're doing?

Karen Doherty 1:35 So I, that's a good question. My mission has always been that I really believe in relationships. I really believe that we, we function so much better in relation to others, and that it's just such a rich, a rich vein, a, a rich avenue to d- to personally develop, develop communities, all sorts of things. And it's been a passion forever. I trained as a couple therapist. I didn't train as a individual therapist. So that's my, that's my mission, actually-

Alex Partridge 2:06 Mm

Karen Doherty 2:06 ... is to, is to help, is to he- No, that sounds, that sounds like I'm out there too altruistically. That's, it's to, it's to g- help people see what they're in, understand their dynamics, actually grow together, learn together, use, use each other and harness each other's talents, and it's a fantastic work. It's, it's brilliant-

Alex Partridge 2:27 Mm

Karen Doherty 2:27 ... because you can see people really growing, enjoying, changing.

Alex Partridge 2:33 And you specialize in neurodivergent couples.

Karen Doherty 2:36 Yes. Been doing that for a long time now.

Alex Partridge 2:40 How many couples do you think you've seen?

Karen Doherty 2:41 Oh, thousands.

Alex Partridge 2:42 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 2:44 I started this in... I st- I, I, I, I have always unconsciously worked with neurodivergence-

Alex Partridge 2:50 Mm

Karen Doherty 2:50 ... and always found it quite fascinating, going back to my Canary Wharf days. Um, that practice, I c- can recognize, I could recognize the presentations. They were coming in, and there were similarities. So I got interested there. And I think I did my first talk in about 2016. And, um, and I think from 2014, definitively, I was, I was naming myself as somebody who knew about neurodivergence, 'cause I'd done quite a lot of research by then.

Alex Partridge 3:17 Mm.

Karen Doherty 3:18 Spoke, spoken to Melissa Roelofz in America. Um, just done, just done quite a lot of work with therapists that were then in America. Here, it was more difficult because it wasn't really a thing. Um, but yeah, so it's, well, it's 10 years, isn't it? 12-

Alex Partridge 3:33 Mm

Karen Doherty 3:33 ... 11, 12 years, something like that, yeah. So there's been a lot of couples.

Alex Partridge 3:37 I think many people listening will, will, will love to hear, um, more about this. I think managing any relationship is a challenge, but I suspect that a relationship when there is an ADHDer, someone with ADHD in the relationship, there might be some unique challenges.

Alex Partridge 3:56 Do you think it's... Uh, do you think there are different challenges when there is an ADHD person in a relationship?

Karen Doherty 4:01 Um, yes, I think there are more extreme challenges when there's ADHD, AS, ND in a relationship. Um, I just wanna add here that actually that's getting less, I believe, because people are so much more informed about these conditions. When I first started working, nobody knew, and that was, that was a, a, a critical tipping point when people suddenly understood, "Okay, I've got ADHD." Then this actually changes things. It's a different lens. Um, but there are definite challenges. Um, there's challenges in every relationship. You know, long-term relationships are nothing other than hard work [laughs] and lots of love.

Alex Partridge 4:38 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 4:39 Lots of resilience, lots of coming back.

Alex Partridge 4:42 Mm.

Karen Doherty 4:42 Um, but they're worth it. I think they're worth it. If you see people who, who, who, who do it, they will all say, "Well, you know, it was worth it." Um, but definitely there are specific challenges.

Alex Partridge 4:53 A topic that comes up time and time again on this podcast is, is the, the sort of tendency to, um, be triggered and to, say you're having a, a great day and something happens and, and you have a, a mood swing and it, and it triggers you, and you can go from zero to seeing red quite quickly. Now, I suppose from the perspective of a neurotypical partner, one of your clients, have you ever heard them describe their ADHD partner as being completely different on one day than they might be to the next?

Karen Doherty 5:23 Well, Jekyll and Hyde comes in a lot. Yes, it does, and I've heard that said an awful lot. Interestingly, less these days. Less these days as partners and couples are more aware. But it's true, isn't it? What you're really talking about is mood regulation, and it is one of the most difficult aspects of ND. Um, you know, people wake up in different moods. Everybody does that, Alex. You know, we all wake up in a different mood. But if you, if there's a, it, if, if it triggers and it changes-

Alex Partridge 5:51 Mm

Karen Doherty 5:51 ... from one, from one mood to another in a rapid, uh, in a rapid sort of sequence, it can confuse people. It's, it's difficult, but-

Alex Partridge 5:59 Mm

Karen Doherty 5:59 ... again, it's partners recognizing what's going on, both of them recognizing. That make, that sort of dilutes the intensity of it, I think, or the impact of it.

Alex Partridge 6:09 How important is, is compatibility to this conversation? In other words, if, if someone is very regimented and in need of routine, but they're with someone who perhaps is the opposite, is that gonna cause some issues?

Karen Doherty 6:23 Well, that's probably the attraction, isn't it? You know, that very regimented person needs a bit of a, needs a bit of a chaotic, creative mashup to get, you know, the other side to, to, to, to start living something else. So it's probably part of the original attraction. Sadly, like in any couple, original attractions can become the thing [laughs]

Alex Partridge 6:45 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 6:46 ... that cause the most problems, but it's management of that, isn't it?

Alex Partridge 6:49 Mm.

Karen Doherty 6:50 It is, it's management of it. And actually, you know, a couple working together, that order could help the chaos a little bit if they c- as long as it doesn't cause, as long as it doesn't cause head-to-heads. You know, play to your strengths.

Alex Partridge 7:03 Mm. And out of the, the, the thousands of neurodivergent couples that you've seen, what are some of those common problems that they come to you with?

Karen Doherty 7:13 Mood dysregulation is, is a big one, and including, included in that is the RSD.

Alex Partridge 7:20 Mm.

Karen Doherty 7:20 Uh, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which is, as you know, has now been sort of ex- it explains some of the mood, the mood, uh, dysregulation. Um, that is, that is, that is definitely a constant. Um, the communication issues, the way that the different brains process information, experience things, that difference is, is, is difficult because people, not so much these days, but people sometimes assume that the other is the same as them because they love them so much. They just assume, "Oh, well, we're the same," and it's just not with, um, with an ND relationship. Even if you've got two NDs in a relationship-

Alex Partridge 8:06 Mm

Karen Doherty 8:06 ... doesn't necessarily mean that those NDs are complementary, okay? They can still be very different and need to know, to, need to be known.

Alex Partridge 8:14 You mentioned RSD there. I th- I think it seems to be such a common point of pain in, in relationships. It's this, like, rejection sensitive dysphoria, this instant, visceral, physiological-

Karen Doherty 8:26 Yeah

Alex Partridge 8:27 ... response to a, a, a real or a perceived criticism.

Karen Doherty 8:31 Yes.

Alex Partridge 8:31 And I imagine... I mean, I, having spoken to so many people in the community, I know how much damage it causes in relationships. If you are someone who experiences this horrible thing called RSD, can that make you feel like you're unlovable?

Karen Doherty 8:49 Oh, I really hope not. I'd work, I'd, I, I'd work to l- not let that happen. Um, you're not unlovable. RSD is a, a reaction, okay? It's, it's, it's a reaction. It's part of the condition. It's how you process information. Um, now, how you process information is very much dependent on, um, your experience and where you've come from. So when you use the, when, when you get triggered by the RSD, um, it's, it's, it's, it's important to start recognizing i- it as such. It's not gonna make it go away. It's not gonna make it hurt less really, but it is a matter of understanding that actually perhaps there wasn't the intention that I may have attributed to it. That helps.

Alex Partridge 9:35 Mm-hmm.

Karen Doherty 9:35 That helps moderate it. It doesn't stop the pain, because that is visceral, I know, but it can help moderate and manage and rationalize if you can just step back from that and remember it. But unlovable, not.

Alex Partridge 9:51 I've spoken to people in the community, and, and their sort of feedback is that they, they've been told so many times by people that there's something wrong with them. Um, not necessarily in their current relationship, but just generally in their life.

Karen Doherty 10:06 In their life.

Alex Partridge 10:06 They've grown up feeling different, intrinsically broken, is, is the feedback that I get, and as a result of that, that leads to people-pleasing, perfectionism, overcommitting in order to put other people's needs ahead of theirs because they're so scared of encountering a rejection or a criticism. And therefore, they feel that they're, that they're putting on this mask in order to change and present a version that is different to who they think they are underneath because they feel that that person underneath is unlovable. And I suppose the question is, like, if someone does feel like that, what effect can that have on a relationship? Can they push that person away if, if that other person is contradicting that internal critic?

Karen Doherty 10:53 Yeah, that's right. That's what happens. Because what the, what, what the RSD leads to is a defense. Somehow, that person is going to defend themselves, okay? And they are then gonna push their partner or whoever they're, uh, they're interacting with away. They need to do that because they, um, they, they... First of all, they've got to recover. They [laughs] need time to recover, so pushing somebody away is the-

Alex Partridge 11:16 Mm

Karen Doherty 11:16 ... first way of, of, of being able to do that. Um, and so that defensive response becomes very live in relationships, and it's, it's, it's there all the time. Partners need to recognize that, because obviously defensive responses close down communication. Once you've moved to defense, once somebody, once that has happened, once the, perhaps the person with the, who's been triggered with RSD throws out a defensive statement, the other one might come back to protect themselves or defend themselves, well, it, conversation's gone.

Alex Partridge 11:50 Mm.

Karen Doherty 11:51 It's over. You've closed down the conversation. But we... The, the narrative around, um, the development of, uh, the development of ND, we know that it's got a developmental lag. We know all the issues, they're well, well documented, that NDs can, can, can come across in their, in their development. We know that, and so we understand that the RSD is, is, is there, and it, and it needs to be defended against. It's not until, interestingly, interestingly, because what that ultimately leads people to feel is not good enough. You're saying unlovable. In my room, it would be, actually, you don't feel good enough. You are r- you, you are withdrawing from your partner 'cause you haven't got the confidence. You don't feel good enough to actually be honest, open, and vulnerable.

Alex Partridge 12:41 Mm.

Karen Doherty 12:42 Because the minute you can be, it changes the, it changes the narrative. The minute that you no longer defend but say, "Oh, I'm really hurt. I need a moment to recover," it changes the conversation. It changes the situation immediately. But that takes confidence. It takes feeling good enough to be able to do it. And for me, that happens, that happens post-diagnosis a lot of the time.

Alex Partridge 13:06 Is it a, a form of self-sabotage or s- or at least sabotaging the relationship, this, this kind of pushing s- your, your partner away because they're contradicting that feeling of not being enough? And what... I, a- are there some subtle signs that someone might be doing that, that they might not even see in a subconscious way?

Karen Doherty 13:29 I think sometimes... Yeah, I think there's, there's a few, there's a few ingredients in that sort of mix there. I think sometimes, A, there's a lack of confidence, so you can't really communicate with your partner. B, there's an incredible frustration and anger at your previous, at your previous experience, and that leads you to sort of can't be bothered, actually, to explain. You just get caught up in this-

Alex Partridge 13:53 Mm

Karen Doherty 13:53 ... in this melee of sort of anger, frustration, sadness, disappointment, and can't be bothered. It's too much, and you move to overwhelm. And then that's it, isn't it? You've moved to overwhelm, and there's no conversation. So it's quite... It, it, it, it's, it's the one of the first things that has to be worked with in my room. Oh, okay, how do we deal with this? How do we manage it? How do we get you thinking about pausing? How do we get the partners to understand? I mean, how do you both deal with it if you're both ADHD and you're both triggered? Come on, how are we gonna do that? How are we gonna... [laughs]

Alex Partridge 14:27 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 14:28 How are we gonna knock that out?

Alex Partridge 14:29 Mm.

Karen Doherty 14:29 How are we gonna calm that down? So it's all about, it is all about recognition and strategies.

Alex Partridge 14:34 Do you think, like, if you're with someone for long enough, you can, you can know them so well that you can see when they're triggered, perhaps even before they know that they are?

Karen Doherty 14:42 Oh, definitely. That's, that's part of, it's part of some of the problems that come into the room, is that partners become so hypervigilant around their partners, that they're constantly sort of walking on eggshells, over-facilitating, trying to avoid, trying to calm down, and they don't... And it's all done with the partners just assuming that that's what's going on. The actual ND might not know, might not know that they're moving towards that, and it's a, it's a big issue. It's a big issue in couples, how, um, the one part- the one partner might be, might walk on eggshells just a tad too often.

Alex Partridge 15:25 Mm.

Karen Doherty 15:26 And the ND is not aware, not aware of the hurt that the partner's feeling or the fear that the partner's feeling of triggering. And often the partner, I mean, it's only recently that RSD has come into the mix the last few years.

Alex Partridge 15:39 Mm.

Karen Doherty 15:39 Often the partners have no idea what's going on. They just know, oh, uh, uh, this could trigger either an escalation or a withdrawal, and

Karen Doherty 15:48 so they walk on the eggshells.

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Alex Partridge 17:02 Where does shame come into this conversation? Because if you're someone who is struggling with RSD, and you are triggered, and you, you either do what you're, you're advised to do, which is to take a pause, remove yourself from the situation, regulate, calm down, reapproach it with a calmer mind, or the impulsivity in that moment wins. The, the, the rage, the impulsivity takes over, and you say something nasty. But whatever that, at that fork in the road, whichever way you go, you're still left with the reality of you're a, an adult who is struggling to manage their emotions, and there's a certain degree of shame that comes with that.

Karen Doherty 17:43 Yeah. Yeah, I think that, think that shame is very, it's very live and very real. And working with a couple, you try to s- you, you try and create a compassionate and empathic space for that not to be quite so real. It's not, it's not your fault. It's nobody's fault.

Alex Partridge 17:59 Mm.

Karen Doherty 17:59 You know, and especially when there is, um, real efforts made to manage, manage these conditions. You know, everybody has a temper. Everybody has to manage themselves. It's not just an ND domain. Um, but that shame, you have to work with the, the, the couple. The couple need to be able to sort of not let the partner, not let the partner d- disintegrate into a shameful position because it's, it's unfair.

Alex Partridge 18:23 Mm.

Karen Doherty 18:23 And it's not soothing. It's not soothing. So but it depends on, it depends on the level of communication.

Alex Partridge 18:30 Is it, is there a pref- like a preferred or optimal way to communicate with your partner around these sensitive topics?

Karen Doherty 18:36 People have all sorts of techniques and strategies. I quite like a, I just like a couple to develop their own secret language around it, and I will help, I will help-

Alex Partridge 18:45 Mm

Karen Doherty 18:45 ... every couple do that.

Alex Partridge 18:46 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 18:47 You know, come on, what's the language we're using?

Alex Partridge 18:49 Mm.

Karen Doherty 18:49 What are we doing? Are we using code words? Are you using signals? What are you doing? Are you using ... What are you doing? W- how are you gonna, how are you gonna develop this intimate language that can, that you two can converse in, even in public, that just allows you both to know, uh, either when somebody is not feeling great, or when somebody is just a little bit edgy because maybe that was a bit inappropriate? So how are you gonna develop this

Karen Doherty 19:13 couple language?

Alex Partridge 19:14 A topic that comes up, again, is, is, is this concept of boom and bust, and tying that into relationships. You see people with ADHD sometimes get very excited about something in the early stages of when that thing comes into their life.

Karen Doherty 19:29 Mm.

Alex Partridge 19:29 And that could be a, a new hobby or a new job, and th- that person will hyper-fixate, become completely enraptured within that thing. But you have to be careful, because sometimes that, that, that obsession, that excitement is short-lived.

Karen Doherty 19:47 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 19:47 Do you see that boom and bust cycle appear in neurodivergent couples, or particularly when there's ADHD in the picture?

Karen Doherty 19:56 No, ND, just ND, both sides. Both sides to that boom or bust is very, uh, is very pertinent. Um, and I think we talked about this in the last, in the-

Alex Partridge 20:05 Mm

Karen Doherty 20:05 ... last chat, didn't we, about that, that incredibly passionate, overwhelming need to merge at the beginning of these-

Alex Partridge 20:13 Mm

Karen Doherty 20:13 ... relationships, and the sort of indiscriminate merging, because it's just, "Oh, I've met my soulmate. This is it. We are ... This is it. We are gonna be together." And that, that very, very, um, i- interesting mix of chemicals, endorphins, everything that goes off.

Alex Partridge 20:30 Mm.

Karen Doherty 20:31 And we know ND is particularly sensitive to all of those changes, all of those hormon- hormonal changes, chemical changes, so it's even more intense for the ND. But I think I argued, I think I argued as well the last time I was here that it's equally as intense for the partner. The partner gets into that for their own reasons. There's a couple fit that goes with that. Um, and how do you know whether any relationship, how do you know whether it's gonna last or not? How do you know? You don't, is the answer. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 21:02 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 21:03 You don't. You know, it's very hit and miss, isn't it?

Alex Partridge 21:06 Mm.

Karen Doherty 21:06 Three months, four months, okay, that might be ... Yeah, all right, so we'll carry on. Um, generally speaking, generally speaking, if it's the right thing, people don't bust. They don't, if it's the right thing. They ... I think you might be also talking about something later on where, um, the relationship starts to be taken for granted, and it's a bit more obvious from the ND's point of view in that they can often become hyper-fixated on other things and forget the couple.

Alex Partridge 21:38 I'm just thinking about, like, at that super early stage in a relationship, because I've had guests on here that have proposed in the first couple of weeks, when they're in that boom.

Karen Doherty 21:49 Yes.

Alex Partridge 21:49 And then they go through the bust, and they have to s- sort of come back with their tail between their legs and they're not interested. I mean, do you think it's important or almost essential for that ADHD person to, to, A, be aware-

Karen Doherty 22:02 Oh, definitely

Alex Partridge 22:03 ... of this boom and bust cycle, and to, B, somehow put something in place to sort of ration their interest and actions [laughs] during those early sta-

Karen Doherty 22:11 They can't ration it. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 22:12 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 22:12 That's never gonna happen, and you can't, you can't ration that fir- that, that first boom. You can't ration that.

Alex Partridge 22:17 Mm.

Karen Doherty 22:17 I think, I think awareness, I think actually knowing that this might be a pattern in your life-

Alex Partridge 22:21 Mm

Karen Doherty 22:21 ... that you do get a little bit over, over, over involved. It's very interesting that you bring this subject up, because so many clients have got together really quickly. Now, they haven't all bust, obviously. Um, but so many clients actually did get together and were living together within the first six months, or they'd had children within the first two years. They've got together very quickly, is a feature of these relationships.

Alex Partridge 22:46 Mm. Do you think there is, like, a victim here though sometimes? If, if the ADHD person, or someone who is, is perhaps going through that boom phase-

Karen Doherty 22:55 Yes

Alex Partridge 22:55 ... I, I, you could almost love bomb the person who's on the other side.

Karen Doherty 22:59 Yes.

Alex Partridge 22:59 Not intentionally, but from the point of view of that other person, 'cause they could, they'll receive this boom, this, this 10 out of 10 energy, this, this hyper-obsession from you, and that sets the expectation that you're super serious and you're gonna be in it for the long term. But then a month, two months later, the, the, the mood's shifted considerably-

Karen Doherty 23:18 That's right

Alex Partridge 23:18 ... because they're in the bust, but you're still in the traditional, neurotypical-

Karen Doherty 23:23 Yes

Alex Partridge 23:23 ... trajectory of a normal relationship, and that can come as a massive shock to you.

Karen Doherty 23:27 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 23:27 For that person, is that, is that a potential for almost feeling, like, massive confusion, not understanding?

Karen Doherty 23:36 It's hugely confusing for a, a more NT, a more NT partner.

Alex Partridge 23:40 Mm.

Karen Doherty 23:40 Hugely confusing. And I think it's, it's very well documented, this, that sometimes after the marriage, the interest goes.

Alex Partridge 23:47 Mm.

Karen Doherty 23:47 You know? The, they are the focus of their partner's all for so long, then they've got married, and actually, it's all, it's all changed. It's all different. It's, it's sort of established now, so there doesn't need to be all that interest, and it's lost its, it's lost its, uh-

Alex Partridge 24:01 Mm

Karen Doherty 24:01 ... interest as that bright, new, shiny thing. So yeah, it can be very, it, it can be very, uh, difficult for the partner t- on the receiving end of that sort of pulling back, withdrawing of that gaze, if you like.

Alex Partridge 24:15 Mm.

Karen Doherty 24:15 That wonderful gaze. But couples do make it. Couples do make it. So it doesn't always happen. Um, it ... And it doesn't always happen to huge degrees. I think the way that you're talking to me about that, it is when actually there's been a mistake made. So that's, that can be really terrifying [laughs] for the, for the partner if they've got d- as far down the road as actually thinking that they're going to commit in, and then the ND person-

Alex Partridge 24:43 Mm

Karen Doherty 24:43 ... pulls away. That can be really terrifying. But, um, but managing it, managing it and transitioning it from those early, th- those early days into something more permanent, that's the couple together have to do that, and it has to be recognized as just that, and it's gonna be more intense if you've got ... if you're in- involved with an, uh, with a neuro dy- d- uh, diverse person. It's gonna be more intense. Okay, how do you manage that? What do we do about it? Ration, ration yourself. Don't love bomb me.

Alex Partridge 25:10 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 25:11 Can't, not do that. [laughs] No, what you've gotta do is remember that you've gotta keep love bombing me.

Alex Partridge 25:15 Mm.

Karen Doherty 25:16 Not, not ration it. You've gotta keep, you've gotta keep it. You've gotta somehow hold onto it. So difficult.

Alex Partridge 25:22 And 'cause I was just thinking, people with ADHD and in the community, we are ... we're very, like ... Because we've had to l- find unique solutions to various challenges, I think people with ADHD are very good at problem-solving.

Karen Doherty 25:35 Amazing. Amazing.

Alex Partridge 25:37 And I, I just wonder if you're in a relationship, and for, for whatever reason, things have gone sour, but the person goes into problem-solving mode and thinks, "Well, let's, let's have a child to bring a shared focus into this," is that a good idea?

Karen Doherty 25:52 [laughs] Absolutely not.

Alex Partridge 25:53 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 25:55 When did a child ever, ever solve a relational problem? It didn't. It really didn't. It's ... But it, I ... It can provide, and I think this is where the, the solution-focused thinking comes in. It can provide a mutual focus. It ca- it can provide a solution in the short term, but the long term, we all know that doesn't, that doesn't work because actually, child-rearing is relentless, and it is ... it's, it's disturbing to the couple dynamic. It's hard work. Um, it's distracting, and it takes away, often, the attention from the couple and each other, and that, that is where it really gets difficult for NDs. NTs can sometimes be a bit more pragmatic about it. "Well, we've got kids. We don't have sex. We don't do this. We don't do that." The ND is feeling rejected, is feeling left out, is feeling, "Oh, my God, what's happened? This is, this is not for me," and feeling absolutely isolated and lonely. That's not to say, actually, that the NT doesn't end up feeling like that as well if this is NT.

Alex Partridge 27:02 Mm.

Karen Doherty 27:02 It can. It, it, it can. It can actually work like that because as the ND withdraws because there's not the attention, love, gaze that they need, the NT, who's sort of caught up with the more pragmatic running of the life perhaps and can sort of, can tolerate that a little bit more, does actually feel ... start to become exactly the same, feel exactly the same things as the ND.

Alex Partridge 27:27 And, and if a child does come into the equation, but the, the, the couple, ND or NT or-

Karen Doherty 27:35 Or 2 NDs

Alex Partridge 27:35 ... whatever mix-up that is-

Karen Doherty 27:36 Yeah, whatever mix

Alex Partridge 27:37 ... but they haven't worked on the root, they haven't worked on the, the issues, the, the dysfunction within their relationship, but they've brought a child into the situation-

Karen Doherty 27:45 Mm

Alex Partridge 27:45 ... as a result of not working on the root and not working on the dysregulation, could there be some negative traits passed on to that child?

Karen Doherty 27:54 Well, you, you, you've got two things going on. Don't forget the genetics, so if there is an undiagnosed ND element, then that child will ... may, may well manifest some of that, okay? And then, um, [sighs] psychodynamically speaking, as a couples therapist, we do look to the modeling of the family of origin. What happened in that family? What d- what d- what lessons did you learn there? So if that family is not functioning well, there is the ... Y- you're passing on difficult models. So there's every, every need to find out what's going on s- to cause the couple distress and dysfunction, and more so if there-

Alex Partridge 28:36 Mm

Karen Doherty 28:36 ... are children present. There's no doubt in my work that children do provide ... They provide, um, a r- a, a focus and a reason to improve their family life and their couple life, but it's not a reason to have children.

Alex Partridge 28:51 Do you think some people are just not destined to be together? Like, no matter how hard that they might want to try and be genuinely nice people ... Are, are, are there times when some people come to you and you say, "This is game over"?

Karen Doherty 29:07 Well, I might know that game's over, [laughs] and it might take me a while to say it, but I think it's really sad 'cause that is basically when the, the trials and tribulations have just become too repetitive. They've gone round and round and round in so many circles. They've started so many times. They've tried so many times, and between them, over the course of their relationship, the red flags, they've just missed them. It's like sliding doors. They've just missed each other. When one person is sort of really hurting and needs to talk, the other person is maybe too busy, and they have missed each other just one too many times. Um, and that shows itself. I mean, I, I did have a client, um, just recently who said, "When is enough enough?" And it was so sad, but I had to say, "I think enough is enough." [laughs] I have to ... That ... I mean, together, I think you've tried everything.

Alex Partridge 29:59 Mm.

Karen Doherty 29:59 And you ... There's too much, there's too much happened now. You can't ... You've lost, you've lost the ability to connect in the way that you might need to connect for a, for your couple to carry on. And that, that was, that was, um, really difficult to say, but actually, they both knew it anyway. Um, they were both really suffering, and they had given it the best go. So they were both brilliant people, but it was, it was too late.

Alex Partridge 30:25 Mm.

Karen Doherty 30:26 And that's sad, and it does

Karen Doherty 30:27 happen.

Alex Partridge 30:27 Are there any success stories, c- couples, neurodivergent couples, that have come to you, and, and they're genuinely on the rocks, like they are at ... true crisis point and they've come to you desperate, and they've, they've gone away, they've done the work, and things have been okay?

Karen Doherty 30:42 Many. Thank you.

Alex Partridge 30:43 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 30:44 Many. [laughs] No, loads of people.

Alex Partridge 30:47 Mm.

Karen Doherty 30:48 Loads of people. But, um, so it, it's, it's, it's really interesting how a couple does come back.

Alex Partridge 30:54 Mm.

Karen Doherty 30:54 So a couple of, a c- a couple of ideas here. Um, an affair. An affair can be, can actually break a couple or not. You know, if we, if we think about affairs being a, a symptom of a relationship that's already, it's already cracked. All right? If we bring it, we bring it down to that, the affair's already... There, there were, there were cracks, otherwise it probably wouldn't have happened to, to that degree. So, um, that is, so they come in with that work. And then actually we look at it through a neurodivergent lens, and that l- that gives it a slightly different frame and a slightly different way of working with it. And then I'm not condoning affairs in any way, but I, I think they can... I think as long as you've got all the information, and especially the neurodivergent information, then that, that mix can really work, and people can, people, people can restart.

Alex Partridge 31:45 Mm.

Karen Doherty 31:45 They can rethink, okay, and they know why it happened, and they can make it better. And, um, another, another lovely, lovely story was, um, a couple had been living together for a while, a long while, and they had been living separately. They had children, but they'd been living separately. And I think they came in as a sort of a last-ditch effort. And, um, they had autistic children, and one of them said, "Yes, I, I probably am. I'm probably ADHD." And th- did, did the session. Absolutely wonderful people. Wonderful people. Did the session, and I said, "Well, have you considered that there might be other neurodiversity present [laughs] in the couple?"

Alex Partridge 32:28 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 32:29 Might not all lay in one, o- on one side here. [laughs] And it was almost like a light bulb, and they said, "Oh. Oh, okay." So gave them some resources. Off they went. They came back in two weeks, and their couple had completely recalibrated. Of course, we did loads of work to get them back together again, but it was a light bulb moment, and actually it changed the whole couple dynamic. Um, the fact that they now knew that it wasn't just one, it was both, and actually they had these challenges. There you go. They go- they went off. They did the work. They, and they hopefully live happily ever after.

Alex Partridge 33:05 In terms of people coming to you that, like that, they are, they have been in a bad place, but then they, they go away and they do the work, can you come back s- stronger?

Karen Doherty 33:15 M- much stronger. Much stronger. You know, you've, you've, you've... They, they, they'd been together quite a long time, actually.

Alex Partridge 33:21 Mm.

Karen Doherty 33:21 Um, and they'd obviously been good at the beginning, and then the trials and tribulations of their own children and the, the challenges-

Alex Partridge 33:28 Mm

Karen Doherty 33:28 ... that they'd faced there had, um, had taken its toll. The challenges of undiagnosed neurodiversity had taken its toll. Um, but they, they stayed together, and they did the work, and they, they're, they're looking at another phase of their life now in a much more positive way. It's much stronger, much more positive, much more open. There's, there's something about this, you know, life phases as well. So couples come to me at all sorts of times of their life. You can get young people who are... Actually, I'm really big on working out a couple deal. What are you actually doing? What does this couple mean for you? And that needs to be negotiated as you go through life. You know, as you go through your children, it's a different, it's a different relationship. When the children are teens, it's a different relationship. When the children leave, it's a different relationship. So, um, yeah. It's, um, neurodiversity has to be... It, it's, it's the same as any relationship.

Alex Partridge 34:27 Mm.

Karen Doherty 34:27 It's gonna go through phases.

Alex Partridge 34:28 What about how neurodiversity is represented in society in general and the media? Because I hear a lot of... I do a lot of work in businesses raising awareness around how to sort of accommodate yourself in, in, in the workforce, and it's often met with, um, discrimination and bullying and stigma. If a, if a person becomes aware that they are neurodivergent, and they're worried about their partner having a different view, or maybe their partner has read something in, in, in the paper or in the media, and they think that ADHD isn't real or is, or it's met with an eye roll, does that cause issues in the counseling room?

Karen Doherty 35:11 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 35:11 And what sort of issues-

Karen Doherty 35:12 Yes

Alex Partridge 35:12 ... might that cause if, if there's not, like, a mutual understanding around the seriousness of these neurodivergent conditions?

Karen Doherty 35:19 So interestingly, the work with ADHD Aware really, really has highlighted to me of late, um, how, how some of the neg- some of the negative aspects of neurodiversity and how it's being talked about in the media.

Alex Partridge 35:33 Mm.

Karen Doherty 35:33 There's quite a lot of frustration actually that, um, it's possibly trivializing the conditions. "Oh, yeah, we've all got a bit of ADHD," or, "Oh, yeah, I think I'm on the spectrum. I think I'm... Well, we're all on the spectrum." That is... It's, it's, it's, it's so wrong, and it's, it upsets a lot of people because it means that these really very, very complex conditions are not being taken seriously enough. So I think the media has a part to play here. I think, uh, we have to... It, it's fantastic that neurodiversity finally has a voice. It's how we use that voice.

Alex Partridge 36:09 Mm.

Karen Doherty 36:09 It's how that voice is now going to be used by people like yourself, how that is going to be actioned, and, um, what, what, what it requires-

Alex Partridge 36:18 Mm

Karen Doherty 36:19 ... to, um, to both educate and to integrate. You know, neurodivergence has been with us forever. It's always been there. Um, and it is really very much part of the new world that we live in. You know, these neurodivergent brains are fantastically able to move-

Alex Partridge 36:44 Mm

Karen Doherty 36:44 ... in this new environment, this global, this global technological en- environment. They are whiz kids at it. Now, whilst there might have been a lot of challenges, a lot of challenges, in a society that was more closed, and perhaps more structured, and perhaps more ruled by religion or local community or attitudes, that's not the case anymore. So neurodivergence, I think, we're coming into the age of it. And it's ... So within a couple, it needs to be seen as for its full potential. It really does. Um, and the media needs to sort of start talking about it-

Alex Partridge 37:25 Mm

Karen Doherty 37:26 ... in that positive way, I think.

Alex Partridge 37:28 Neurodivergence in a couple, um, in all, in all its brilliance, what do you think the positives are that-

Karen Doherty 37:34 Oh

Alex Partridge 37:34 ... ADHD brings to a romantic relationship?

Karen Doherty 37:37 Fun. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 37:38 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 37:39 Fantastic fun. Spontaneity. Bringing the other into the moment, into the now. Um, the fit is usually that, the, the, the fit, the couple fit, is often that one is, uh, a bit more serious, one is a bit more, bit more loaded down with life. This comes, uh, this, this comes back to what we were talking about earlier.

Alex Partridge 37:59 Mm.

Karen Doherty 37:59 You do have a pretty classical couple fit where there'll be ... If, if you're talking ND and NT, you have a pretty classical fit where both people have lived their lives, uh, with highly, highly developed defenses. Okay? The ND is defended in terms of masking and, and, and, and trying to fit in, and adapting, and mirroring, and all of the stuff that we know. But the NT has done it as well. The NT is usually qui- really quite highly, highly able, and they've got there usually through some sort of, some sort of early adultization in their world, being, being the one that had to care in a family, being the one that maybe had to grow up very early due to a divorce, or there, there were ... If, if, if I look at the couples, I can almost always find that early trauma in the partners, in their, their so-called together partners. Um, so it's, it's, it's mutual. It's a mutual fit.

Alex Partridge 38:59 Mm. It's like I s- mentioned earlier, I think ADHD people are tremendous problem-solvers because they've had to solve problems their entire life-

Karen Doherty 39:06 Yeah

Alex Partridge 39:06 ... in order to survive.

Karen Doherty 39:07 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 39:08 ADHD is a disability, though, and it's very much synonymous with that word. Do you think that is inflammatory to the community, and how might that show up in relationships?

Karen Doherty 39:19 Ah. Inflammatory to the community, I think it probably is. Um, I think there has to be, uh, as I said earlier, I think there has to be an integration. There has to be some sort of acce- acceptance that the disabilities are challenges of different levels. Okay? So it's not ... Of course, some people are highly challenged, and some people are not so challenged. So, but how it shows up in a relationship, if it is seen as a disability, then you have inequality, and I don't, I don't work with it like that. I work, I work with it as a set of challenges, and both people in that couple have a set of challenges. And somehow we have to tease out the strengths and the capacities, the tolerance levels, and the abilities of that couple to manage. Because the minute you set it up as some sort of disability, you've got a carer, or you've got somebody who might need to care, and that's, that's really how the relationships start to go wrong.

Alex Partridge 40:14 Mm.

Karen Doherty 40:14 Because there's too much pressure put on one, or one is taking up too much of the flak. They're over-facilitating. The minute you have that over-facilitation in a couple, you're disabling the other. The minute somebody's seeing it, "Oh, you can't do that because you've got ADHD."

Alex Partridge 40:30 Mm.

Karen Doherty 40:30 "Uh, no, I can't do that, but I can do this. So I might do it a different way, 'cause I think differently to you. So what about us doing it this way?" It has to be like that. You have to, you've got to harness both, both sets of, both sets of challenges and both sets of skills. But it's hard, because, you know, the ADHD brain is, it works differently, and the partners often can't keep up. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 40:54 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 40:55 So they're not, they're not really sure about the solutions that are being offered.

Alex Partridge 40:58 Mm.

Karen Doherty 40:58 But that's the

Karen Doherty 41:00 work.

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Alex Partridge 42:24 what does unity mean to you, and why is that so important in relationships within, where there is a neurodiverse person involved?

Karen Doherty 42:33 Because of the massive differences in the way that the processing is, i- is, is present in the couple. All right? There's massive differences. It-- they have to be harnessed. They have to be, they have to be worked on together. You can't do it independently. One can't do it on their own, the other can't do it on their own. The whole concept of a couple is that you build a solid base for both of you to go off, have your autonomous lives, and have your interdependent lives and a really great time together. But the, it's, it, that, that unity, that unifying of the couple-

Alex Partridge 43:04 Mm

Karen Doherty 43:04 ... in the face of the challenges, whether they're neurodiversity or not, the unification of the, the, the, the thinking, the talents, the skills, the, the quirks, just being able to, to unify over these things and, and, and have your own language and understand, understand each other's needs. Do you know how many couples I see that actually have no idea of each other's needs? It's remarkable, but that conversation hasn't come into the, the sort of the, the maelstrom of life.

Alex Partridge 43:35 Mm.

Karen Doherty 43:36 They're too busy or they haven't really identified it. They haven't sat down and talked about it, and that's the beauty of the work of a couples therapist particularly. It gives a place and a space and provokes thinking around those things.

Alex Partridge 43:49 I wanna talk about your ADHD item, Karen. Um-

Karen Doherty 43:51 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 43:52 It's been patiently waiting underneath that cloth on the table.

Karen Doherty 43:55 Yes.

Alex Partridge 43:55 I ask all my guests to bring in an item that, for them, represents ADHD.

Karen Doherty 43:59 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 44:00 And your item is...

Karen Doherty 44:01 [laughs] Yes, Kitty.

Alex Partridge 44:05 Right. I think that's a cat. [laughs]

Karen Doherty 44:06 It is a cat. It is, yes. What is it? Kitty? What? Hello, Kitty.

Alex Partridge 44:10 Hello, Kitty. Yeah.

Karen Doherty 44:11 Hello, Kitty. There she is. Hello, Kitty.

Alex Partridge 44:13 Why, why, why, why does a cat represent-

Karen Doherty 44:15 Why? Why?

Alex Partridge 44:16 ... ADHD?

Karen Doherty 44:16 Okay, so you wanted, you wanted me to bring something-

Alex Partridge 44:18 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 44:18 ... that I might be able to, uh, explain something about. So, um, when we're talking about that language, okay, that, um, couple language, one of the things that I try to get couples to identify is something that they focus on together. So in fact, the last couple, it was their cat. All right? They adored this cat. It was a child. It was the ch- the child of them.

Alex Partridge 44:41 Mm.

Karen Doherty 44:42 And so they used their cat's name as, um, as the little bit of a code word or the way to indicate to each other that actually they weren't feeling great, something was going wrong, they didn't wanna go around the roundabout again, or they didn't wanna get in the ring 'cause they knew it would go to an escalation, or something like that. So it could be this, it c- it can be all sorts of things. It can be a favorite food. It can be a tra- a place they traveled together. But what it needs to symbolize is a time when the couple is good, why the couple is together. So somehow I get them to think of that, and I, it can't just be a word plucked off the shelf. It's gotta be something. It's gotta be, it, it, it needs to have meaning for both of them-

Alex Partridge 45:23 Mm

Karen Doherty 45:23 ... so that when it's going off, they can actually think, "Ah, okay, let's do, let's think about our couple. Let, this is representative of our couple. Fine. I'm gonna walk away." And that's, that's why I brought the cat in because everybody, in that, in that language, the couple need to have a symbol for when they're good and loving and why they're together.

Alex Partridge 45:45 The, the, the item that snaps their memory back to a, to a good time, that time, is that, can that be a really early memory of, say, when they're in that boom phase or super excitement phase?

Karen Doherty 45:56 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 45:57 Or does it need to be sort of after the, the excitement's settled and in that, that, that more consistent phase?

Karen Doherty 46:01 It doesn't matter. It's whatever they value. You know, it's something that they can think about and both bring a smile-

Alex Partridge 46:06 Mm.

Karen Doherty 46:06 Bring a smile to both faces and think, "Ah, yeah, I remem- yeah, that's, yeah, I remember that was w- when we were really good," and the- and use that. You're using it. You're working with a therapist who's trying very hard to get you to change habits, and so one of the ways of changing habits is to try and write the script that when these things are going wrong, and they're very predictable, you've got emotional dysregulation, RSD, withdrawal-

Alex Partridge 46:29 Mm

Karen Doherty 46:30 ... overwhelm. We know, we know the symptoms as they happen, so let's have a language around them that, but, that can really, uh, really remind both members of the party why they're there.

Alex Partridge 46:41 Mm. Just penultimately, Karen, I wanna do the ADHD agony aunt section-

Karen Doherty 46:44 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 46:45 ... which is called the washing machine.

Karen Doherty 46:46 Oh, and the washing machine.

Alex Partridge 46:47 Did we do this last time you were here?

Karen Doherty 46:48 No.

Alex Partridge 46:49 No. [laughs] This is new. I'll introduce, it's called-

Karen Doherty 46:51 I did not do it the last time. That's great.

Alex Partridge 46:54 It's called the washing machine of woes, the ADHD agony aunt section-

Karen Doherty 46:56 Oh

Alex Partridge 46:56 ... because my ADHD item is a washing machine because I always leave my clothes in the machine after the c- after the cycle's finished. I do ask everyone, do you leave your clothes in the machine? [laughs]

Karen Doherty 47:08 I do not, Alex. But I scream at my kids because they do. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 47:11 [laughs] I have been using the Tiimo app, though, which means I'm a little bit better at remembering.

Karen Doherty 47:17 Oh, well done.

Alex Partridge 47:18 Um, this week, Karen, in the washing machine of woes, somebody has written in and asked, "I have ADHD, and my partner just thinks I'm useless, forgetful, and annoying. How can I get him to understand me without shouting?"

Karen Doherty 47:31 Well, you definitely have to stop shouting [laughs] 'cause he's-- 'Cause that's just underpinning everybody, e- everything he already thinks. So your first clue is actually you're not gonna shout.

Alex Partridge 47:42 Mm.

Karen Doherty 47:42 You're not gonna shout. You're going to furnish him with loads of information about your brilliance and your ADHD and how it shows up. Then you're gonna sit down and talk to him about the things that you don't find quite so easy. You don't find quite so easy, and how you can just get a little bit agitated, and basically you're gonna educate your partner around what happens to you, because he or she probably doesn't know, probably doesn't understand it. And, um, the more that you shout, the more that you both shout, the more that [laughs] you get in the ring, the more you fight. That's not gonna help anything. It's just going to reinforce the fact that actually, mm, that ADHD, don't really know what to do with that.

Alex Partridge 48:23 Mm.

Karen Doherty 48:24 You can't do that. So it is about, it's about not shouting, first and foremost, and then saying, telling, telling them all the good things and the challenges. But the good things first, please, 'cause there's so many of them.

Alex Partridge 48:38 How important is it to always, like, lead with the positive and to, and to sort of l- layer a foundation of positivity and praise before you go into the sort of serious stuff in any conversation?

Karen Doherty 48:50 E- come on, any, any one of us likes a bit of praise-

Alex Partridge 48:52 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 48:52 ... and a little bit of, you know, we don't have to be ND to really, you know, respond well to that. The things that, that, it, it's so simple. It's kindness. It's, it's re- receptivity-

Alex Partridge 49:05 Mm

Karen Doherty 49:05 ... if you like. Reciprocity. It's being, it, it's, it's so important to sort of lay those positive foundations just to be kind. So many people lose, lose the habit of being kind to their partner, and it makes such a difference. Um, I was, I was, uh, uh, in a session a few days ago and we were talking about, you remember that defensive response?

Alex Partridge 49:28 Mm.

Karen Doherty 49:29 And, um, actually, it was on a, it was on a group call. It's for this, this couple calls that I've written for ADHD Aware, so everybody must get on there.

Alex Partridge 49:37 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 49:37 But, um, we were talking about how the, we, to w- to create a narrative, a kind narrative, instead of launching into, so y- a couple are having a conversation and somebody gets triggered, but instead of launching into a defense, actually having a script. "You know, thank you for saying that. I'm gonna think about that," and move away. It just changes the whole tone of the conversation for both.

Alex Partridge 50:03 Mm.

Karen Doherty 50:04 For both. Just trying to not lose that, just trying to not become that sort of agitated, impassioned, aggressive person, and just try and hold it and be positive and say, "God, that's great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you."

Alex Partridge 50:18 Mm.

Karen Doherty 50:18 And then, then what, go away and calm down, but just changing the narrative, changing the script, it just makes such a difference, and being positive.

Alex Partridge 50:26 Mm.

Karen Doherty 50:26 Being positive about it.

Alex Partridge 50:28 Yeah.

Karen Doherty 50:28 You know, we've got a great relationship. We just have, we've just got challenges. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 50:33 [laughs] I suppose the opposite of RSD is, is like a euphoria in response to, to praise.

Karen Doherty 50:39 Yes.

Alex Partridge 50:39 So if you sort of start with that, then-

Karen Doherty 50:41 Yes

Alex Partridge 50:41 ... if, if there are some challenging comments or conversations coming after that, at least you're gonna go a long way to dilute the impact of, of the, the latest stuff.

Karen Doherty 50:46 You're gonna go, you're just gonna dilute the impact. You're going to say, "No, that was brilliant, thank you."

Alex Partridge 50:51 Mm.

Karen Doherty 50:51 "No, that's great. Thank you." It's, it, that's it.

Alex Partridge 50:53 Mm.

Karen Doherty 50:53 That's all about reciprocity, isn't it? Understanding, sort of being compassionate.

Alex Partridge 50:59 Mm.

Karen Doherty 51:00 Being able to understand what's going on.

Alex Partridge 51:02 Really fascinating,

Alex Partridge 51:03 Karen. Just finally, I wanna do the letter from the previous guest. Every week, I ask my guest to write down three rules to live by, and they post it in that post office down there.

Karen Doherty 51:13 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 51:14 And I deliver it to my guest today, which is you, and, and ask you kindly to read out the previous guest's three rules to live by.

Karen Doherty 51:20 Three rules to live by. Oh, how fascinating. I like this. "Three rules to live by. Prioritize yourself. Putting yourself first means you can look after others. Be kind."

Alex Partridge 51:35 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 51:36 "It costs no money, and everyone can be kind. Always think about what you eat. Eating better is great fuel for your, for your brain." [laughs]

Alex Partridge 51:47 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 51:48 Not wrong. Not wrong. Um, oh, this is Louise Newson. I love her.

Alex Partridge 51:53 Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Karen Doherty 51:53 I love her. I love her.

Alex Partridge 51:54 No, she's, she was fantastic.

Karen Doherty 51:55 Um, that prioritize yourself, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's, of course, what everyone has to do.

Alex Partridge 52:00 Mm.

Karen Doherty 52:00 And ironically, in couples, the, the partners of ADDers or ND can often think that there's too much prioritizing of self going on, when in reality, there's none. There's none. There's, the, the, what they're mistaking as prioritizing of s- of self is actually recovery, is actually trying to, trying to stay in the world, trying to stay upright in the world, and it's not actually looking after themselves.

Alex Partridge 52:25 Mm.

Karen Doherty 52:25 So it's, uh, couples, I, I'm, I'm really, really, um, really passionate now about couples taking care of each other and making sure particularly, we know, I mean, James Cousteau has write- written beautifully about this, how it's not just a, it's not just the brain, it's the body.

Alex Partridge 52:43 Mm.

Karen Doherty 52:43 You have to look after the body. Movement is critical. You know, keeping everything healthy. So looking after yourself, I believe, is absolutely a priority. Um-

Alex Partridge 52:52 Absolutely. Yeah, you, you have to ring-fence your own wellbeing, right, in order to have any chance of a r- dual relationship working.

Karen Doherty 52:59 Absolutely. Absolutely. But w- with the ND relationships, you just have to be careful-

Alex Partridge 53:04 Mm

Karen Doherty 53:04 ... that the partner doesn't think that you're, that you're self-obsessed.

Alex Partridge 53:08 Mm.

Karen Doherty 53:09 All right? Because that, that, that sort of, that over-focus on anything, actually, can feel like you're not taking care-

Alex Partridge 53:17 Mm

Karen Doherty 53:17 ... or the, or can feel as if you are spending time on yourself, and you're not. You're not at all. You're doing all of the things I just mentioned.

Alex Partridge 53:24 Mm.

Karen Doherty 53:24 Recovery, thinking, um, wondering if you did something wrong. [laughs] "How could I have done it better?" Not taking care. And be kind.

Alex Partridge 53:34 Mm.

Karen Doherty 53:34 Yeah, of course. Of course, be kind. It's, um, it makes the world go round, and it doesn't cost anything, so.

Alex Partridge 53:39 Absolutely.

Karen Doherty 53:40 Thank you.

Alex Partridge 53:40 It's really fascinating. Karen, thank you so much.

Karen Doherty 53:43 Thanks for having me. Lovely ta- chatting to you. Thank you. [upbeat music]