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ADHD Chatter PodcastADHD Chatter Podcast

Rox Pink (ADHD LOVE) confronts psychologist over childhood trauma

Rox Pink, one half of ADHD Love, is back! …but this time, she’s joined by renowned psychologist Jo Perkins to dissect her ADHD and help understand the root of her complex behaviours.

Dr. Jo PerkinsguestAlex Partridgehost
Jan 7, 20252h 0mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 1:08

    Trailer

    1. SP

      I wouldn't say that I had trauma and it caused ADHD. What I definitely relate to is that I was a really sensitive kid in a non-sensitive household. Roxanne Pink is back.

    2. JP

      But this time, she is joined by renowned psychologist, Jo Perkins.

    3. SP

      To dissect her ADHD and help understand the root of her complex behaviors

    4. SP

      Anyone with ADHD will know the amount of negative messages-

    5. JP

      Mm

    6. SP

      ... someone receives across their lifespan, it kind of makes sense that you don't believe the compliment. A good outcome can sometimes happen because you didn't actually do anything. You're not built to be perfect.

    7. AP

      Why do you think you were so desperate to please your dad?

    8. SP

      I think because he wasn't forthcoming with hugs or, "I love you," but I knew if I won a race or I got an A, I could crack a nod and a smile, and that was everything to me. So I took some time away from my relationship with him, which is brutal when it's been your hero, when it's been the only one who's ever wanted to love you, and obviously my mum isn't here. So yeah, it's hard, but I always hold in the back of my mind, "Davey's watching."

    9. AP

      Jo, could you walk Rox through why she felt that way?

    10. SP

      The fact that it's there, it's about-

  2. 1:08 – 1:18

    Dedication

    1. AP

      This episode is dedicated to anyone who feels like they would benefit from therapy, but hasn't yet got the confidence to book the appointment.

  3. 1:18 – 3:51

    Tiimo advert

    1. AP

      Give me just a second while I explain these balls hurtling towards my face. Turning over a new leaf can be so difficult for us with ADHD. Trying to set New Year's resolutions can be overwhelming. You set 100, don't know which to focus on, and end up sticking to none of them. It's like trying to catch 100 balls. You just don't know which to focus on. Well, Tiimo app can help with that. New Year's resolutions can be tricky, but beneficial for neurodivergent individuals, providing structure to your schedule and aiding in personal growth. Who wouldn't want that? However, executive functioning isn't always our friend, and the process of habit building comes with a unique set of challenges. The Tiimo app is a valuable tool for neurodivergent users, especially during this time of year, and it supports us on our journey towards being a better version of you in the following ways. Tackling task initiation anxiety. Tiimo's AI checklist breaks resolutions into small, actionable steps. For example, it can schedule actions like put on workout clothes, stretch for five minutes, or tell your dog he's a good boy, making tasks feel manageable. Emotional regulation. Setbacks can affect motivation. Tiimo's state of mind integration helps users reflect on their emotions over time, identify patterns, and make adjustments to align resolutions with their wellbeing. Time agnosia. If you're struggling to manage your time, then Tiimo's visual daily overview and focus timer make it easier to allocate time effectively, supporting consistency and punctuality in sticking to your resolutions. Lastly, Tiimo are turning over a new leaf of their own with their brand-new feature that allows you to integrate with your Apple Health state of mind feature. It allows users to track their mood alongside their planning and identify which tasks are draining their energy the most. For a discount, use code ADHDChatter. The link will be in the bio. Now, while you're listening to the rest of the episode, I will be trying to clean up all of these balls without getting distracted, so enjoy and wish me luck. Jo.

    2. JP

      Yeah.

    3. AP

      Rox. Thank you so much for joining us.

    4. JP

      Yes.

    5. SP

      Thanks for having us, yeah.

    6. AP

      Question for Jo. Um, when I was first diagnosed, the psychologist said my ADHD was clear as hell, and she could ... She said she could tell I had ADHD before I even opened my

  4. 3:51 – 5:09

    Is our (Alex + Rox’s) ADHD THAT obvious?

    1. AP

      mouth. So to throw you in the deep end to start with, do you think it is that obvious in either of us?

    2. JP

      It's a trap, trick question, I feel. Um, it's really hard for me to answer that one because I know already information about you, I've seen you, and, and would know your story. So I think that what I would imagine happened in that case was y- when you were going in for that, your diagnosis, you weren't masking, hiding. You were probably feeling anxious, so you ... It's probably evident to her-

    3. SP

      Mm-hmm

    4. JP

      ... in that setting that you were. So yeah, now I could give you examples perhaps of, of, of how it might be obvious, but I'd be always really quite cautious of saying something like that out of a setting. But, um-

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. JP

      Yeah, there's some, there are some things that can be dead giveaways, but, um, not necessarily in isolation. But I can see why-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. JP

      ... someone may say that if you're in that setting, 'cause they'd be scanning for it as well.

    9. AP

      Yeah. Ooh, it's interesting. She just, she, she, uh-

    10. JP

      Yeah

    11. AP

      ... we had the call and at the end she said, um, [clicks tongue] "Your report will come in a few weeks, but I can tell you now, it's clear as hell-

    12. JP

      [laughs]

    13. AP

      ... the ADHD." [laughs]

    14. JP

      Yeah. Yeah. I think once the questions start coming and when you've had that-

    15. SP

      Yeah

    16. JP

      ... that assessment, that is-

    17. AP

      Yeah

    18. JP

      ... pretty much, you know, yeah. We'll verify it and validate, but-

    19. AP

      Mm

    20. JP

      ... yeah.

  5. 5:09 – 11:02

    Joe, what do you think the tell tale signs are if someone has ADHD and Rox, do you relate to any of these things?

    1. AP

      What, what do you think are some of the tell tale signs if someone has ADHD? And Rox, do you relate to what Jo says?

    2. SP

      You go first-

    3. JP

      Well, I, I-

    4. SP

      ... and I'll, I'll tell you

    5. JP

      ... and, you know, I, I, an annoying disclaimer, because some people do these things and they will not be neurodivergent or ADHD, but things like starting a conversation as if you've just been having it together out of the blue and y- you'll know what we're talking about, is quite ADHD I think for a lot of people. It's like, "Well, hang on. What's going on?" But, you know.

    6. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JP

      The, you know, people being very fidgety. You know, if you ... So a lot of times you observe someone on a train kicking, fiddling. You know, again, it doesn't mean to say they are, but they can be quite a sort of, you know, agitation, kind of-

    8. AP

      Mm

    9. JP

      ... movement, constant, you know, movement, um, feature, I think, that a lot of people will exhibit and, and, and know they have if they're not masking and they're unguarded. The other thing will be- The kind of organization, so when you've got people that are just late or flustered sometimes, and it kind of seems to be a pattern. Um, people that can fall into people-pleasing, and you can come sometimes detect it and think, "I wonder what's going on here?" That might be a sign.

    10. AP

      Mm.

    11. JP

      Again, um, extreme empathy. You know, someone that really feels you, um, and can relate deeply. That, that would not be an unusual one. And I think as well, the kind of sensitivity to other, to other people's needs, not necessarily when they're turning up late or, or kind of, you know, over-promising and under-delivering because they've stretched themselves, but it is that sense of not worrying about themselves, but really worrying about what everyone else ... Is everyone else okay? Can I get you anything?

    12. AP

      Mm.

    13. JP

      Which isn't just people-pleasing, it's, it's caring, deeply.

    14. AP

      Rox and I nodding-

    15. JP

      Okay [laughs]

    16. AP

      ... along to everything you're just saying.

    17. SP

      Well, I'm twiddling my thumbs-

    18. JP

      Are we ticking the window?

    19. SP

      ... because you've got your fiddle stone.

    20. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    21. SP

      Just thinking. Um, yeah, I mean, so much of that, I think, it's just great, great to hear it in, in such a clear, succinct way. I think we really need that. But the bits that really made me do this was turning up late and flustered.

    22. JP

      Mm.

    23. SP

      Um, I was here 15 minutes early, and I, I saw Jo outside. [laughs] Couldn't believe it.

    24. AP

      [laughs]

    25. SP

      So I'm here without Rich. I got here an hour early and sat round the corner just-

    26. AP

      Oh, really?

    27. SP

      Yeah, just to-

    28. AP

      Oh, no, you should have said.

    29. SP

      No, 'cause I was like-

    30. AP

      Oh

  6. 11:02 – 20:53

    ADHD and accepting compliments

    1. SP

      Oof.

    2. AP

      Do you think people with ADHD, Jo, struggle, do struggle to accept and, and digest and take in compliments?

    3. JP

      Yes, for sure. F- exactly what you've just said there, Alex, and I think a lot of the time if I'm working with someone, I'm trying to build up the self-esteem and the kind of the evidence base of what's going on. It will be those smaller things, the quite dull perhaps, mundane pieces of evidence, "Well, you did that project. You managed to do that." And even that will be dismissable, "Yeah, but that's obvious. Anyone can do that." It's like, well, actually, no, but you need to build that up, and it is, it's, it's not something someone's used to if they've got ADHD, because if you think about, I mean, you've talked to a lot, with d- different guests across these episodes, and anyone with ADHD will know, the amount of negative messages-

    4. AP

      Mm

    5. JP

      ... someone receives across their lifespan, it kind of makes sense that you don't believe the compliment, let's say.

    6. AP

      Mm.

    7. JP

      Or the, "That was just a magic moment."

    8. AP

      Mm.

    9. JP

      "It wasn't actually something I did. It was a fluke." Or, "Well, I did that well, 'cause I practiced for hours." As if that doesn't still make it good.

    10. AP

      Mm.

    11. JP

      Again, there's always a way to detract from it, and it, I think it does feel quite uncomfortable.

    12. SP

      Oh, it really is. It really is. I always feel, um... Well, first of all, the thing about just growing up with the negative messages-

    13. JP

      Yeah

    14. SP

      ... you just believe you're a piece of shit.

    15. JP

      Mm.

    16. SP

      That's it. That's what I am. That's your identity. Always late, letting people down, the flake.

    17. JP

      Yeah.

    18. SP

      And when that's internalized, it's very difficult to feel you're worthy of anything.

    19. JP

      Yeah.

    20. SP

      But when good things happen to me, my storytelling is that it's a fake. I faked it. I'll be uncovered. It's not real. It's, it is a lot of imposter syndrome, and it's-

    21. JP

      Yeah

    22. SP

      ... it's quite sad really.

    23. AP

      I meet people sometimes, and I don't know if you feel this, and they'll often be brilliant, but then they'll text me or email me the next day and say, "I'm sorry for being weird" or, "I'm sorry for-

    24. JP

      Yeah

    25. AP

      ... or saying something." They, they, they've... You can tell they're so anxious about the encounter. What, what's going on in that situation?

    26. JP

      So much, I think. There's, "I've let you down."

    27. AP

      Mm.

    28. JP

      The rumination that undoubtedly has gone bef- from, from point of, you know, filming, stopping, to leaving, going, "Oh, this, I should've done this," or, "Was it good enough?"

    29. AP

      Mm.

    30. JP

      I mean, the mental gymnastics going into that. That is probably just kind of common feature for that individual.

  7. 20:53 – 29:22

    Rox, what part did trauma play in your upbringing?

    1. SP

      There's been a huge discussion in the world of ADHD, but also here in the studio, um, as to the part trauma plays in ADHD. Some people think that it can actually cause ADHD. Rox, what part do you think it played in your upbringing?

    2. SP

      So it's a tough question, and one I've learned to be a lot more careful about because obviously, hello, impulsive. I'm just like, "Rah." I think it was a part in my upbringing, all these reasons. My story is one of millions, and I wouldn't say that I had trauma and it caused ADHD. What I definitely relate to is that I was a really sensitive kid in a non-sensitive household, and that has left me with some really, really deep scars that I'm still working on today. I think the sense of personal badness, lack of self-worth, a lot of those things can be tied back to being seen as naughty, troublesome, messy, not trying, and perhaps, you know, if there'd been more awareness back in the '80s-

    3. SP

      Mm

    4. SP

      ... um, I wouldn't have dyed hair or all these tattoos-

    5. SP

      [laughs]

    6. SP

      ... and I might have a normal job. Um, so it's, it's ended up okay. But yeah, so that's where, that's where I kind of am today. What's the real answer? [laughs]

    7. SP

      [laughs]

    8. SP

      I almost don't want to say anything-

    9. SP

      [laughs]

    10. SP

      ... because that was just so beautiful, actually, and kind of got me in, in, in the pit of my stomach, Rox, because I think that, as you said, it's, it's a really tough question to answer, and people will have very strong views about this, and it, it's, it's so individual. But certainly for me as a psychologist, I would... I think trauma is a function of ADHD. It, to me, it's a neurodevelopmental aspect of, you know, it's how we're wired, but there's a strong genetic comone- component, as we know. And if you think about how someone turns up in the world, each brain will be different, but the environment that they show up in will be hugely influential in how they see themselves, how they feel about the world, what to trust, the coping mechanisms, and that can be very traumatic. Being neuro, being in the world can be a traumatic experience-

    11. SP

      Mm

    12. SP

      ... on a daily da- daily basis, but particularly if you're neurodivergent and ADHD, the messaging, the kind of struggling to just get by, full stop, get it together.

    13. SP

      Mm.

    14. SP

      And then all the obviously incoming, uninvited messages left, right, and center. So that can be very traumatic, and I've certainly worked with adults, you know, high-functioning adults in that they're in a job. They're, they're living their lives. It's not, you know, there are many people that aren't able to do that and haven't had that, that, so that's what I mean when I talk about that, and there's been no obvious trauma as other people may have had, and yet they'll have traumatic experiences. So again, I think the, the definition of trauma is not static, and I think that how one person experiences it-

    15. SP

      Mm

    16. SP

      ... and it would be, it's difficult to, to say that it's, it definitely doesn't, I don't think, cause it, but it's, it's in the mix.

    17. SP

      Mm.

    18. SP

      Um, and trauma can happen alongside it. There's nothing to do, you know-

    19. SP

      Yeah

    20. SP

      ... whether it's childhood illnesses, family situations, other stuff. So it's a complex interaction

    21. AP

      Can the, uh, traits of ADHD, which might come across as being a bit different to neurotypicals, which would result in that, those 20,000 more negative comments, right? So can that experience of receiving that many more negativity and microcorrections, can that cause trauma?

    22. JP

      Yeah. I'd say so. People may not talk about it as trauma. They may not recognize it, but that physical reaction-

    23. AP

      Mm

    24. JP

      ... and triggering that can happen-

    25. AP

      Mm

    26. JP

      ... in situations is a trauma response, and again, I use that word very sort of cautiously because some people, I wo- would definitely not feel comfortable necessarily talking in those terms, and it's, it's very individual. There'll be also other people going, "Well, I've had real trauma," and that doesn't really ra- So again, it- it's always with sort of, um, an understanding that how that's defined, and I'd always use it cautiously.

    27. AP

      Mm. Mm.

    28. JP

      But absolutely, repeat messages of not being good enough, and the kind of racing to get somewhere, that feeling that you're gonna ruin everything, for, you know, [laughs] it's... And constantly checking, did I mess up? Have I upset you? That's constantly being in a state of hypervigilance, which is what happens when we're in-

    29. AP

      Mm

    30. JP

      ... traumatic situations and environments, and it's ongoing.

  8. 29:22 – 45:47

    Rox’s relationship with her parents

    1. JP

      Yeah.

    2. AP

      Rox, you said a, a moment ago that you, uh, grew up in a household, you were very sensitive-

    3. SP

      Mm-hmm

    4. AP

      ... but the other, other people in the household perhaps weren't sensitive.

    5. SP

      Yeah.

    6. AP

      What did that look like? And I suppose, Jo, what, what is the long-term consequences if someone doesn't have feelings validated at, at a young age?

    7. SP

      So it's quite strange because, um, looking back, my mum, I do actually think my mum had ADHD, right? Because she was late all the time, and she was very, she was very sensitive. She was very emotional, and she used to overspend sometimes on credit cards, and her initials actually spell out LATE, so I think, [laughs] there you go.

    8. JP

      [laughs]

    9. SP

      Um, but she was very, very loving and, and very, very sensitive, whereas my dad was very withdrawn and had a lot of emotional difficulties, but as a kid, I actually idolized my dad. I idolized the one who I couldn't get, and I was actually quite rejecting of my mum's love. So actually, I could have had a sensitive childhood. I didn't know I was de- ... rejecting that at the time. I just wanted to please my dad.

    10. JP

      Mm.

    11. SP

      I wanted to perform, I wanted to win races. Probably why I'm a performer, obsessed with doing well now-

    12. JP

      Mm

    13. SP

      ... I'm just realizing. But there was no room for emotion, sadness, fear, anger, and in fact, when those emotions did come up when I was a teenager, and, uh, there was a lot of affairs in my house, and I was the one to discover them, obviously, the ADHD researcher, I was denied the ability to feel anger, and I, I shoved it all down. I silenced myself, and I've been silenced for so long, a, a seething bag of resentment and silence, and I'm just now, at 40, 25 years later, starting to feel anger and rage, and it's really scary to allow it to come back into your body, 'cause it can feel like it can take over. Um, but yeah, I'm quite sad, um, for little me, 'cause I think if I'd, if I'd been able to choose, and I'd idolized my mom a bit more, I would've had loads of cuddles and validation. But as a kid, I don't know, is that normal, that you chase the one that you perhaps can't get?

    14. JP

      I mean, what's normal?

    15. SP

      That's true.

    16. JP

      Everything's normal in, in that sense.

    17. SP

      Yeah, yeah.

    18. JP

      But I think that what struck me as you were talking, Rox, and it could be that another child would do it the other way around, and they try and kind of get into the emotionally dysregulated perhaps parent, who may be more erratic and unpredictable, but more loving. But the way you've just described your dad there, there may have been something about the elusive nature of it, wanting that validation, but also the withholding of it, consciously or otherwise. You, you not being able to read what good enough was.

    19. SP

      Mm.

    20. JP

      So of course, trying harder. So I think that probably, you can get locked into that.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. SP

      Yeah.

    23. JP

      Any of us can.

    24. SP

      Yeah.

    25. JP

      It's like, "Well, I'm gonna try this now, and try that," and it's almost like everything else can fall away, 'cause that's the thing that matters.

    26. SP

      Mm.

    27. JP

      That's why we can be in relationships, pursuing. Don't get, it can be fun at first as well.

    28. SP

      It can, yeah.

    29. JP

      And, and for the little spark of appreciation or love that inevitably would've happened in some ways-

    30. AP

      Mm.

  9. 45:47 – 51:13

    The surprising link between ADHD and creativity

    1. AP

      It's clear that how important being creative is for you. What do you think you get from that process emotionally?

    2. SP

      Yeah, so said, obviously, I was very sensitive in a house where I didn't feel I could be. Probably quite unhealthily, I split off those strong emotions into music, and I, I made it into creativity, and I still do that. It is a splitting off of that which I don't feel I can handle or I don't know how to process. So the music I'm making now is bits of more like rock music.

    3. JP

      Mm.

    4. SP

      I'm writing quite angry songs. [laughs] There's anger coming out, and it's, um... I talk about it quite a bit in therapy, this, this alter ego, a version of me that's able to carry anger and resentment, and all of these emotions I've stripped myself of because I'm so desperate to be liked because of RSD.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. SP

      Um, so music has been, yeah, my safe space to just put all the stuff I didn't think that I could be, and I know so many, um, ADHders, neurodivergents have creativity. It doesn't have to be music. Everything that we're doing has a huge creative aspect to it, and it's such a saving grace-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. SP

      ... for those kind of deep wells of our soul.

    9. AP

      Absolutely. Do you, do you think it is higher concentration of creativity with- within the ADHD community?

    10. JP

      It seems to be, and it's hard one to measure, 'cause I don't think there's probably been-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. JP

      ... I don't know how you'd measure that. But what I think, for me, is, um, something that's a real theme, being creative as a neurodivergent, ADHD, uh, uh, you know, particularly, you have to be creative just to get by, to get round the neurotypical sort of world things. You know, you have to approach problem-solving in a way that maybe you're not being taught to, whether that's because thinking as well about the high rates of, you know, if you're diagnosed with ADHD, you're much more likely to also have another coexisting diagnosis, whether that... Whether it gets picked up and you receive it is another matter entirely. Dyscalculia, dyspraxia-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. JP

      ... dyslexia, autism, you know, there's so many other things. So actually, you're gonna have to approach all sorts of things in life differently, from getting dressed, ordering yourself, learning how to do a maths problem. So creativity is almost a, an intrinsic part o- o- of a neurodivergent person's experience.

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. JP

      Certainly in a neurotypically designed world. It may be different if you live in different kind of parts of the world, where there's different ways of learning, or in previous times when it wasn't so formulaic. So I think it's an intrinsic part, and I think it's a survival mechanism. And then I also think because of the nature of the wiring and the diverse way of looking at the world, that lends itself to creativity.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. JP

      To me, and I think the two together kind of then just take you to places

    19. AP

      Creativity as a survival mechanism

    20. JP

      Mm.

    21. AP

      Never thought of it like that before, but I think it's so true. We, we, the hurdles we have to get over-

    22. JP

      Yes, so true

    23. AP

      ... and the creative solutions to these problems-

    24. JP

      Yeah

    25. AP

      ... we have to. You know, we have to be creative. We have to see the patterns and analyze. It's a, it, it, in a defense.

    26. JP

      Yeah.

    27. SP

      Mm.

    28. JP

      Absolutely. Well, it's interesting, if someone has lost a sense or doesn't have a sense-

    29. AP

      Mm

    30. JP

      ... others will compensate.

  10. 51:13 – 1:05:11

    The neuroscience of Hyperfocus

    1. AP

      What is happening in the... 'Cause I think back of the, the creativity we've mentioned, the neuroscience in the-

    2. JP

      Mm

    3. AP

      ... in the brain when someone is hyperfocusing, um, using their imagination, what does that look like?

    4. JP

      Yeah. Well, apologies to all the neuroscientists out there who are officially would go into a much more complex-

    5. AP

      [laughs]

    6. JP

      ... kind of, um, detailed explanation, but in essence, what's happening is w- that state of hyperfocus is activating and recruiting key parts of our brain areas, and, you know, the neurotransmitters that help us attend, focus, increase motivation, and calms us down. So it's this kind of beautiful cocktail, if you like, for an ADHDer to go into, but it's only when it's traveled in the right area, 'cause it sounds wonderful, and it is. It's a really unique experience for an ADHDer-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. JP

      ... to have, but it's not always pleasant [laughs] 'cause it, it depends on what you're focusing on.

    9. SP

      Yeah.

    10. JP

      Um, but it's, it's, yeah, it's this synchronicity in the brain, and actually the parts of an ADHD brain that are normally underactivated, so the prefrontal, you know, the executive functioning-

    11. SP

      Yeah

    12. JP

      ... areas in a state of hyperfocus become highly activated.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. JP

      And actually, the bit of our brain that would normally be about m- m- mind wandering is, "I'll go, I'll go over here. I'll go..." It's like it's deactivated, so it's this potent interaction goes on, so you're locked in almost-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. JP

      ... to the thing.

    17. SP

      That is so amazing because that explains something about me that, um, my partner always laughs at, like, which is if we're really busy, he will book us a day off. Maybe we might-

    18. JP

      Mm

    19. SP

      ... go to an Airbnb. We might go to a spa. That's my favorite, like.

    20. AP

      [laughs]

    21. SP

      And every time I'm in the spa for a day off, I'm coming up with another b- business idea, and he laughs, and he's like, "I've learnt now that's what you do to relax."

    22. JP

      Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    23. SP

      I'm locked in. I'm happy. Everything's fine. And also my day off is planning more work. But that's why, because I'm-

    24. JP

      Yeah

    25. SP

      ... I'm locked in. I'm not daydreaming. I'm not procrastinating.

    26. JP

      No.

    27. AP

      Mm.

    28. SP

      And actually, I feel great.

    29. JP

      Well, that's when, and when that, the beautiful example of where the, the sort of positive hyperfocus certainly, you know, 'cause you could just get locked into cleaning a cupboard, which might have a good outcome-

    30. AP

      [laughs]

  11. 1:05:11 – 1:09:30

    The confusions between ADHD and BPD

    1. SP

      thing, you did follow. It wasn't a-

    2. AP

      Mm

    3. SP

      ... completely random, bonkers idea.

    4. AP

      Yeah.

    5. SP

      But it wasn't the right one for you. And so I think, yeah, I'm convinced there's more in that than-

    6. AP

      Mm

    7. SP

      ... an impulse.

    8. AP

      It's that cruelty, isn't it?

    9. SP

      You may have just got it, got there quicker because of the impulse.

    10. AP

      Mm.

    11. SP

      Some people would spend years noodling over that, thinking, "I'm gonna have a business." 'Cause, again, that would fit your, with your profile and your history, but I think that some people would.

    12. AP

      Mm.

    13. SP

      And they wouldn't test it.

    14. AP

      But the, the guy I hired to be the producer, he, I told him, [laughs] and he said, "So when did you get your ADHD diagnosis?" [laughs] He knew before I did. Um-

    15. SP

      There were signs.

    16. AP

      Yeah.

    17. SP

      There were signs.

    18. AP

      Yeah.

    19. SP

      Yeah, there's always signs.

    20. AP

      Yeah. I've heard a few people say their ADHD was misdiagnosed, um, as bipolar due to their peaks and troughs of hyperfocus and the following burnout. What other di- wh- what other disorders or diagnoses might mirror invisible symptoms of ADHD? And Rox, do you relate to any of those?

    21. SP

      Well, I have got no idea, so I'm absolutely gonna defer to Jo. The, the only thing I do know is I, can't be an official diagnosis 'cause it's not in the DSM, but I was diagnosed in a loose way with C-PTSD first, complex post-traumatic stress disorder, which is linked to my mom's death and the aftermath of that. And actually, so much of my ADHD was almost masked by trauma symptoms, that actually I was in therapy for two years before ADHD-

    22. AP

      Mm

    23. SP

      ... came into the conversation, 'cause I was dealing with a lot of nervous system stuff, a lot of flashbacks and things like that. So actually, I was kind of masking it, and then I, I'd got loads better, and then I bought in, "I've gone the, on the train the wrong way five times this week. Is that normal?" So I had to, like, clear some weeds-

    24. JP

      Yeah

    25. SP

      ... um, to get through.

    26. JP

      Mm.

    27. SP

      But yeah, over to you, Jo.

    28. JP

      Well, I think you've, you know, described what a lot of people's experience will be, not necessarily the same diagnosis, but again, it's that being, you know, the bipolar thing definitely because of that burnout feature and the, the manic phase, which can look very ADHD, think of the studio example-

    29. AP

      Mm

    30. JP

      ... you just provided. But actually, anxiety-based disorders are often first diagnosed, OCD, generalized anxiety, social anxiety, so that's a very common misdiagnosis. Um, and we treat it first, and it's, you know, then it might be apparent that as that gets better, it's coming from, um, ADHD, or maybe that the ADHD bit is never picked up, depending on who you're working with.

  12. 1:09:30 – 1:27:19

    Masking

    1. SP

      Yep. Yep.

    2. AP

      How does anxiety sort of manifest in your life as a-

    3. SP

      So I don't get that anxious anymore-

    4. AP

      That's good

    5. SP

      ... which seems like a wild thing to say. Um, I don't think it's because I'm not an anxious person anymore, because I am, and if I'm out in the wild, actually, today's been lovely and I haven't been. Um, if I'm meeting new people, going to a new place, I'm incredibly anxious that I'm gonna get lost or that I'm gonna lose my phone, just like the silly little things that can sort of ruin my day. But I have a life where I work from home a lot, and I have this wonderful partner, so I'm sort of like quite anxiety insulated. I think the difference now when I do feel anxiety, let's say I'm on a train and I've missed my stop, or I'm worrying I'm gonna miss my stop, whereas before it would, like, totally derail me and I wouldn't understand, there wouldn't be reflecting on what was happening.

    6. AP

      Mm.

    7. SP

      I can now go, "Okay, we're really anxious-

    8. AP

      Yeah. Yes

    9. SP

      ... about missing the stop. Let's check Google Maps. It's ADHD. We're gonna trust our memory. If we're really freaking out, we're gonna call Rich." There's like a, a slightly more sensible adult that-

    10. AP

      Mm

    11. SP

      ... pops up in the back that can watch my anxious self-

    12. AP

      Mm

    13. SP

      ... and that's, that's quite nice to have.

    14. AP

      Are there any situations that you're aware of that would cause you to sort of mask up and, and sort of change who you are a bit?

    15. SP

      Yes. I think everywhere I go all the time. [laughs] It, it's just-

    16. JP

      It's default. Mm

    17. SP

      ... something you said earlier, and I think it is so important, actually, I think you were eating an orange and Alex said it-

    18. AP

      [laughs]

    19. SP

      ... was about it isn't just one mask that comes up and down. We have different segments.

    20. AP

      Mm.

    21. SP

      We have different masks. So on the internet, I have a bit of a mask that I kind of am laugh-y and jokey and jovial, and then at home with Rich, I can be like crying and, and a depressed blob, and people don't see that. And when I go on tour, I have to become a rock star. [laughs]

    22. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    23. SP

      Really f- can't be neurotypical. Tried for decades.

    24. AP

      [laughs]

    25. JP

      That's a lot.

    26. SP

      Can be a rock star.

    27. AP

      Mm.

    28. SP

      How cool is that?

    29. JP

      Very. Very.

    30. SP

      Um, so yeah, different masks come up and down all the time, but the one mask I will never, ever, ever wear again is that I'm organized, I'll always remember, I'll always get back to you. I used to try and present as a highly organized person as a defense-

  13. 1:27:19 – 1:30:18

    The ADHD Agony aunt segment (Washing machine of woes)

    1. SP

      absolutely.

    2. AP

      I wanna talk more about RSD-

    3. JP

      Mm

    4. AP

      ... um, but first I wanna do something you're both probably very familiar with now, being on the podcast-

    5. JP

      Mm

    6. AP

      ... uh, a couple of times, the, the ADHD Agony Aunt section-

    7. SP

      Yes

    8. AP

      ... um, which is called, which is called The Washing Machine of Woes-

    9. JP

      [laughs]

    10. AP

      ... because I always forget my laundry in the bloody machine. [laughs]

    11. SP

      Yeah, same. Mm.

    12. AP

      Um, but I am using the Tiimo app now, which I'm so, I'm getting a bit better. Every week, I ask my Instagram community for their biggest ADHD woes, and it goes in the washing machine, and I pick one and read it out to see if there's some wisdom. Right, this week somebody has said, "I keep begging my husband to see a therapist because he has some unresolved issues from childhood, but he dismisses it and says, 'Therapists are all mad themselves.'"

    13. JP

      [laughs]

    14. AP

      "Do you think this is true? And if so, maybe it's a good thing?"

    15. JP

      Wow.

    16. AP

      [laughs]

    17. JP

      I always remember the first patient when I was training, ever working with, actually came in, and that was his opening gambit. And he said, "I don't wanna see another psychologist or therapist or psychiatrist 'cause you're all mad." So-

    18. AP

      [laughs]

    19. JP

      ... it's a theme. It's out there. So, you know, I think what I'm hearing, and I'd like to say no, therapists and psychologists and psychiatrists are not all mad, but human, so there will always be perhaps, you know, people in there that-

    20. AP

      Mm

    21. JP

      ... that may be not very well. Hopefully, that's not the case in, you know, but it's, it's like any other job. But what I think I'm hearing here is he's not ready. There's too many defense mechanisms up, and that might not be what the asker wants to hear, but that, that's what I'm hearing. In my experience, that you, you, you, it's, it's not gonna work until he feels it'd be, it'd be safe for him to do so, or he feels he would want to go.

    22. AP

      Mm. Yeah. Interesting woe this week.

    23. JP

      Yeah.

    24. AP

      Have you ever had, had any mad therapists, Jo? [laughs] Rox?

    25. SP

      We're all mad, aren't we?

    26. JP

      So-

    27. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    28. SP

      Um, but just on that, it's not a, a partner because, um, Rich, Rich did, did go to therapy quite early on, but I have it with my eldest stepkid. They live with us. They're 20 years old. And for five years, um, I've been kind of politely suggesting there might be some stuff a therapist could help with, and it's always been met with, um, resistance or-

    29. AP

      Mm

    30. SP

      ... "Nah, I'm not into that," cringe. They're 20, obviously. And what I've realized, or what me and Rich have realized is rather than trying to control them, which we cannot, they will have to choose it themselves if it's gonna work, we can control us. We've both been to therapy. I'm still in therapy, so we're, we're role modeling it.

  14. 1:30:18 – 1:38:46

    Rox, can you explain the visceral feeling of RSD?

    1. SP

      and see what might happen.

    2. AP

      Rox, can you explain the visceral feeling of RSD you might experience or have experienced recently? And Jo, could you walk Rox through why she felt that way and how she might have been able to cope, manage it?

    3. SP

      Okay, so I'll pick one that happened recently. It, it happens a lot, as we know, pretty constant with work, with friendships, with, with family. But one that happened recently, um, that really knocked me was two people, two of my really good friends that I work with a lot, um, we've actually just, just finished an album. My album comes out in January. They've produced it, so we've spent all this time together. We get on super well. They call me their friend. We text each other. Dom and Sean, if you're listening.

    4. AP

      [laughs]

    5. SP

      I think Sean might listen to this podcast. Um, and one day I'm in session with them, and it just dawns on me that I don't think that they actually like me, and, and I've, I've known them for five years. We've done so much work together, like, we, we have such a laugh. I don't think they actually like me. I don't, I don't think they want me here, and a sense of I, I need to say something funny. I need to write a good line in a song because that's the only reason I'm here. And I felt s- like, so, um, desperate that that desperation to, to win [laughs] their affection, even though it never went away. And I, I went home and I said to Rich, "I've just got it in my head that, that Dom and Sean [laughs] don't really like me, and they won't wanna work with me again." Um, and, and what was so brutal was there was no logic about it whatsoever. I was in the middle of having, like, the best day, we've done this album, we're all best mates, and then bang, "You're gonna lose it now 'cause they don't actually like you."

    6. AP

      Mm.

    7. SP

      Um, and that narrative just, like, played over in my head, um, for a long time, and it took me actually a little while to go and get back in. Um, we're now fine, and it's gone back to normal, and in fact, nothing happened, but because I know it's RSD, I got to talk it out with Rich. I got to have validation from him that there was no evidence, it wasn't real, that it's Kingdoms, they love you. If I hadn't known it was RSD, I might have cut off that friendship.

    8. AP

      Mm.

    9. SP

      And in my past, that's what I've done. The amount of friends I haven't gone back to or I've cut off or even romantic partners 'cause I've decided they don't want me anymore. That thing you said earlier about if people give you a compliment, and you have to sort of trust them, it's really making me think about RSD as well because in that moment, it's like RSD is all about me.

    10. JP

      Yeah.

    11. SP

      They're rejecting me, my world, some... It, it's really not kind of understanding and, like, mentalizing two other humans, two whole stories.

    12. JP

      Yeah.

    13. SP

      There could be all this other stuff going on, so we, we can become so insular and, like, 100% convinced we are being rejected-

    14. JP

      Yeah

    15. SP

      ... when a million other things [laughs]

    16. AP

      Mm

    17. SP

      ... could be going on. It's-

    18. JP

      Well, let's assume a million other things definitely are going on.

    19. SP

      Yeah, there you go. They are.

    20. JP

      Full stop.

    21. SP

      They are.

    22. JP

      How that's playing out in the room, none of us know.

    23. SP

      I think what's wild is when it's something where there's something logical, something that's a bit nerve-wracking, or perhaps there is a little bit of feedback that's hit me like a knife in the tummy-

    24. JP

      Mm

    25. SP

      ... that can make sense. But when it is that intrusive thought, and I know a lot of the people that follow us have it in their relationships, in their safest relationships-

    26. JP

      Yeah

    27. SP

      ... convinced that they're disliked or hated or a burden. In fact, sometimes I, I ask Rich that.

    28. AP

      Mm.

    29. SP

      "Are you mad at me?" I ask him all the time. And that's when it's really sad 'cause it's then-

    30. JP

      Yeah

  15. 1:38:46 – 1:52:27

    The link between ADHD and narcissism

    1. AP

      I also had a f- really interesting conversation with, with Dr. Mark Rackley on here about, uh, narcissism and how some things can overlap there with ADHD. Do you think there's a relationship between narcissism and ADHD, and can those behaviors be confused?

    2. JP

      So first of all, it's important, they're very distinct diagnoses. For the AD- ADHders out there, they are different. You know, ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder, which we don't like the word, but, you know, it's that, whereas narcissistic personality is a nar- is a personality disorder. So, and we're not talking about narcissistic kind of traits and behaviors here if, if I'm making that distinction. But if we're looking at is, you know, the overlap and the, maybe the misunderstanding and, and what is what, yeah, there, there can be some behaviors that can appear. And you can also be ADHD and narcissistic.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. JP

      So, I mean, it's not like you can have one and not the other. So I just think they are distinct, but it doesn't mean, say, that, that someone couldn't be both. But I think that things like emotional dysregulation, if a narcissist is feeling exposed and vulnerable, they may be very angry and explosive. That could also be very much a, a feature of someone's ADHD.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. JP

      The sort of stimulation and the sort of thrill-seeking, you know, the dopamine dysregulation-

    7. AP

      Mm-hmm

    8. JP

      ... aspect definitely overlap. Again, sources may be similar, but how that operates would be different, but it could look similar. The, um, being in your head, thinking it's about you-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. JP

      ... but that will, again, be for, for different reasons and sources. So I think there's definitely some overlap. But I think as well, the distinctions, I think, are really important to make, are that someone who's got narcissistic personality disorder, if they're having challenging relationships or challenges with relationships, so can someone with ADHD, but the, the way that plays out will be very different. Someone with ADHD, their challenges in relationships will typically be f- because of their executive function challenges. They'll be late. They may let you down. They may be really unreliable.

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. JP

      They may cut your sentences off, talk about themselves. That is coming from the challenges, and is, most of the time, if not all the time, it's super well-intentioned, but it can cause havoc in relationships. Someone narcissistic, on the other hand, is not going to be doing it in that way. They will be having challenges in their relationships because they'll be manipulating, being strategic in how-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. JP

      ... they make you feel bad about yourself. So they'll let you down deliberately to keep you on your toes, to retain control, and that is where it's a very important distinction. Empathy. People with ADHD typically will have oodles of empathy.

    15. AP

      Yeah, I mean, it makes a lot of sense. I can sort of see h- how they could be confused. You could confuse narcissistic rage for-

    16. JP

      Mm

    17. AP

      ... an RSD flare.

    18. JP

      Yeah.

    19. AP

      Or love bombing-

    20. JP

      Yeah. Mm

    21. AP

      ... with the hyperfocus of an early stage in a relationship.

    22. JP

      Yeah. Oh.

    23. AP

      I think-

    24. JP

      Yeah

    25. AP

      ... do you think it's more like a narcissistic person, and correct me if I'm wrong, they might alter who they are and change who they are in order to manipulate and get what they want, but an ADHD person will alter who they are and put on a mask it- because they hate themselves. [laughs]

    26. JP

      Oh.

    27. AP

      There's, it's the intention-

    28. JP

      Yeah

    29. AP

      ... that's different.

    30. JP

      And to not be rejected. And actually, if, you know, where there may be some narcissistic, um, again, overcompensation, you know, behaviors that may... It could be from someone, ADHD who's got such a deep wound-

  16. 1:52:27 – 1:59:27

    Advice for parents with an ADHD child

    1. AP

      Are there anything you'd like to ask each other?

    2. SP

      So yeah, I do have a question for you, which would be, for parents listening to this, hearing me speak, um, about all the struggles of alcoholism, self-hatred, self-harm, that I've gone through as a result, really, of, of being missed in, in diagnosis, and, and not having that emotional parenting. So my question would be, what three pieces of advice would you give to a parent of an ADHD child so they don't have to go through what I've gone through?

    3. AP

      It's a good question.

    4. JP

      It's a great question. Um, and it's gonna be... take a moment, 'cause it may not be easy to do.

    5. SP

      Yeah.

    6. JP

      'Cause in that ADHD household-

    7. SP

      Yeah

    8. JP

      ... the chances are one of the parents may be ADHD, and also it can feel out of control, depending on how that ADHD manifests. And I think that it's about, see, best you can, your child. And when the behavior is in full-blown active mode, whatever that is for your child, whether it's repeat worrying, won't go to bed, or whether it's, you know, being too active or naughty, look behind the behavior and kinda go, "What's their pain?" And not feel fully responsible for having to fix that pain, because you're a parent, you're not a magician. You're not a psychiatrist, or a psychologist, or a saint that can be patient in all situations. But understand it's coming from a place of pain. And as much as is reasonable to do, even if it's not in the moment, 'cause your buttons are being pressed, go away, think about it, and try and talk out of that situation. Don't do it alone, is another thing I would say. You know, that village raising a child. Sometimes it does feel like you're alone. Sometimes you literally are alone. You've got no family around you, you're raising a, a, a, your children or child on your own, and it is a constant struggle, whatever your scenario. But there are resources out there, even though getting a diagnosis, as we know, is really tough, might take ages. But there are... Get resources. See what support groups are out there, online groups, because it's very lonely and isolating if you're doing that. And I would also say, coping strategy, for me, routine is one of the things that we can do, again, understanding the parent may not be able to, but it'd be putting in routines. Structure, stability.

    9. SP

      Mm.

    10. JP

      The rest can plug in from that. And it seems really mundane, and, and it might be really overwhelming knowing where to start. Even just having a same bedtime routine-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. JP

      ... every day. Doesn't mean to say everyone will follow it.

    13. SP

      Yeah.

    14. JP

      But that-

    15. SP

      But trying to have that

    16. JP

      ... is, you know, consistency and safety. 'Cause that acting out-

    17. SP

      Mm

    18. JP

      ... and the anxiety is exacerbated without the boundaries, without the routine. So if nothing else, that would be the first place-

    19. SP

      Mm

    20. JP

      ... I would always start. Pick your battles wisely. And if your child's not eating certain foods, choose one thing, stick with that, do it for a few weeks. The other stuff-

    21. AP

      Mm

    22. JP

      ... can wait. Don't do it all at once. It's too much, all of you.

    23. AP

      Yes.

    24. SP

      Love it. A ki- kind structure.

    25. JP

      Mm.

    26. SP

      100%. And the first bit as well, which just means so much to me to hear. So, so get support and don't do it alone. ... boundaries, but see the child.

    27. AP

      Mm.

    28. SP

      'Cause I feel like my behaviors, my naughty behaviors-

    29. AP

      Yeah

    30. SP

      ... just made me a vessel of annoyance and, and naughtiness, and my whole essence and-

  17. 1:59:27 – 2:00:32

    A letter from the previous guest

    1. AP

      I've got a closing tradition where I deliver you a letter from the previous guest, and they've written-

    2. SP

      Exciting

    3. AP

      ... three rules to live by. They posted in that post box.

    4. SP

      Okay.

    5. AP

      But through the magic of time travel-

    6. JP

      [laughs]

    7. SP

      [laughs]

    8. AP

      ... I'm going to deliver the letter to you, Rox.

    9. SP

      Okay.

    10. AP

      And if you could open it-

    11. SP

      Yeah

    12. AP

      ... and read out the previous guest's three rules to live by.

    13. SP

      Yep. Three rules to live by. Never go to sleep on an argument.

    14. JP

      Good.

    15. SP

      And give and get a hug daily.

    16. JP

      Aw, that's a good one.

    17. AP

      That's good.

    18. SP

      Come on, I'll have 10 of those.

    19. AP

      [coughs]

    20. JP

      Yeah.

    21. SP

      Any help with that one? [laughs]

    22. JP

      Laugh at yourself. Don't take yourself too seriously.

    23. AP

      [coughs]

    24. JP

      Yes.

    25. SP

      Love it.

    26. AP

      Yeah, I mean, it's, yeah-

    27. SP

      Yeah

    28. AP

      ... super profound.

    29. SP

      Big, big time.

    30. JP

      Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:00:32

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