Roxanne Emery & Richard Pink (ADHD Love): From Addicts to Best Selling Authors

Alex Partridge 0:00 Richard, Roxanne, thank you so much for joining us.

Richard Pink 0:02 Thanks for having us.

Roxanne Emery 0:03 Thank you so much for having us.

Alex Partridge 0:05 You guys have got a fascinating, if not slightly graphic, story behind your first social media video.

Richard Pink 0:12 We do, yes. [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 0:13 Who's telling it?

Richard Pink 0:14 Shall I?

Roxanne Emery 0:15 You can start, I'll finish. [laughs]

Richard Pink 0:17 So I'll keep it brief 'cause it is quite graphic. Um, Rox, as part of Rox's ADHD, she'll sometimes forget to plan for her period. So, um, one night she told me that she was on her period, so I just asked her whether she h- was wearing a tampon, 'cause quite often she would forget that, um, which she replied, "Yes." And then I said, "Is it a real tampon?" Because sometimes she had been known to use non-Tampax-certified products.

Roxanne Emery 0:47 AKA, just, like, rolling my own sanitary products out of toilet roll or tissue.

Alex Partridge 0:54 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 0:55 Um, so he said, "Is it a real t- tampon?" I said, "Yes." And he was like, "Oh, well done." And I was actually going to sleep at this moment, and then my brain just went, "That would make a really funny TikTok." Told him. He said-

Alex Partridge 1:09 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 1:09 "Yeah, it would. Well, why don't we post it at the weekend?" ADHD.

Alex Partridge 1:14 And that was the birth of it all.

Roxanne Emery 1:15 So I s- That was the birth of it all. And I said, "Let's post it now." So we woke up at about half 11 at night. [laughs]

Richard Pink 1:20 Just to film.

Roxanne Emery 1:21 Registered ADHD Love. It was the fi- first thing that came to mind. Filmed that, and then that was the [laughs] start of our now careers, so yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:31 I think, like, y- you, with your content, you make so many people with ADHD feel seen, and also, you also, I think, provide a tool for people with ADHD to show their loved ones what aspects of ADHD look like. Is that what you had in mind when you started it?

Roxanne Emery 1:49 No.

Alex Partridge 1:49 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 1:50 It, it really was just the tampon story-

Alex Partridge 1:53 Just, yeah. [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 1:54 ... that would be funny. I think that has grown over time. We've done it for...

Richard Pink 2:00 Two years now. Just, just-

Roxanne Emery 2:01 Two years

Richard Pink 2:02 ... so it's two years.

Roxanne Emery 2:02 Stuck something for two years.

Alex Partridge 2:04 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 2:04 So hello. Um, and then we really started to see that so often the comment was, "I've sent this to my partner," "I've sent this to a parent so they can understand." And we then got a lot of parents and partners following, saying, "Thanks so much. This really helped me understand my-

Alex Partridge 2:21 Mm

Roxanne Emery 2:22 ... kid or my partner." So it's been a beautiful, um, progression actually in that.

Richard Pink 2:28 I think as well we get, um, we get stopped a lot by couples, and we, we have a lot of tears, but also some of the things that we sort of have, have found out, I guess, through this whole journey is the, the self-esteem that those with ADHD have got, like, and quite often, and that's where the, the, you know, the partner's or parent's perspective is so important because they'll hear a lot of negative messages externally.

Roxanne Emery 2:55 Mm.

Richard Pink 2:55 So like, "Oh, you're lazy. Can't you just concentrate?" and stuff. So we try, probably not with the tampon one, um, but, but certainly now-

Roxanne Emery 3:03 [laughs]

Richard Pink 3:03 ... our content tries to provide a bit of guidance as to how to talk to someone with [laughs] ADHD.

Alex Partridge 3:10 It's truly remarkable, and I think for the reasons you've said, that's why it's grown so quickly and so big, so fast.

Alex Partridge 3:18 You were diagnosed at 34 with ADHD.

Roxanne Emery 3:21 36.

Alex Partridge 3:21 36.

Roxanne Emery 3:22 Yeah. [laughs] I wish. I wish. Knock a couple of years off. [laughs]

Richard Pink 3:25 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 3:26 I suppose, could you explain for the listeners the, the chain of events that led to you wanting to seek assessment?

Roxanne Emery 3:32 I definitely took the long way round. Um, so a few things had to happen. I'm going to try and not make this a really long story. Tell me if I'm-

Richard Pink 3:42 Good luck with that

Roxanne Emery 3:42 ... going on. [laughs]

Richard Pink 3:43 This, this could be a long one, yeah.

Roxanne Emery 3:45 So I made a right hash of my life in my 20s. Alcoholism, in loads of debt, broken relationships, um, mental health struggles, self-harm, pretty much everything. I was collecting every [laughs] issue like it was Pokémon cards, and eventually that got too much in 2018, and I walked into my first recovery meeting, and that was the, the start point. That was kind of rock bottom, the start point to getting better. Getting rid of alcohol, and I also, um, stopped dating and went celibate for a while just to put myself on the bench and try and figure out what was wrong with me. Um, I'd been self-medicating lots of things with alcohol-

Alex Partridge 4:28 Mm

Roxanne Emery 4:28 ... so you take the alcohol away, actually a lot of my symptoms got worse. This led to what I describe as a mental breakdown in early 2020, um, which was what led me to seek therapy. The first thing that came up in therapy was actually something called C-PTSD, complex PTSD, um, which was a lot of trauma responses I was having, which was things like, um, intense paranoia that people were trying to hurt me, really lack, lack of awareness of, of self, self-hatred, really quite heavy things. Worked on this for a good year with an amazing therapist and just, like, made amazing progress. We were together, so I was experiencing this first kind of healthy relationship. Work was starting to go well. I was moving out of having a terrible credit rating, and I went to therapy one week and said, "Look, doc, everything's actually getting really good-

Alex Partridge 5:33 Mm

Roxanne Emery 5:33 ... but I've noticed some weird things. I've gone the wrong way on the train three times this week.

Alex Partridge 5:38 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 5:38 I've lost two pairs of headphones. Something's going on." And she said, "That sounds like it could be some attention deficit." That's the first time I'd heard of it, so I had a lot of weeds to clear-

Alex Partridge 5:52 Mm

Roxanne Emery 5:52 ... to get back to ADHD.

Alex Partridge 5:56 You've, you've clearly got a vast knowledge of ADHD now. Do, can you look back into your really early years and see ADHD showing up?

Roxanne Emery 6:05 100%, but I always saw- Those symptoms as personality flaws. Um, I always saw, saw myself as being a difficult kid, explosive kid, too sensitive. Um, and I think the, the shame of those things that I had internalized, I've carried with me my whole life. Internal shame becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, so if you think you're a bad person, you are actually gonna end up acting in bad ways to almost make that come true. Um, and it's, it's really quite sad when I look back at little me and kinda think, "Oh, man. If you'd have known, kid. All them wasted decades of just really sad, really lost, also hurting other people could have maybe been prevented."

Alex Partridge 6:57 When you got that diagnosis, in that moment when you heard those words, how did you feel?

Roxanne Emery 7:04 Well, it was, it was laughter and it was crying, um, joy and grief at the same time. The joy was, "Oh, my God. I'm not horrible. I'm not broken. I make sense. I'm not lazy, stupid," all these horrendous things I'd believed about myself and had had reflected to me. It was like the first, um, doorway to perhaps self-kindness that I had never given myself.

Alex Partridge 7:35 Mm.

Roxanne Emery 7:36 And then, yeah, just grief about, um, all the lonely years, the, like, darkest nights, where it had taken me, that they perhaps didn't need to happen. However, that's what we do now full time, and it's, it's so wonderful because hopefully someone hears it earlier, and they might recognize it in a child or as a teenager. Even if they're older, it doesn't matter. Just to give them the kind of same lens that I was able to put on, that, like, you're not broken.

Alex Partridge 8:09 I think a lot of people will be listening to that, uh, feeling quite emotional. I think you've echoed the experience of so many people with what you just said.

Alex Partridge 8:17 And Rich, when Roxanne got diagnosed, did you know much about ADHD?

Richard Pink 8:21 N- n- no, not at all. Nothing. I remember when she got diagnosed, or it was slightly before that, when she, when she thought that it might be ADHD. She obviously went on the, the typical ADHD way-

Alex Partridge 8:31 [laughs]

Richard Pink 8:31 ... and hyper-focused on everything she possibly could, every self-help book, every podcast, every... And it was actually a c- a TikTok creator called Connor DeWolf, actually. He's, he's quite massive, and I remember her, like, sh- sending. All of a sudden it was like notification, notification, notification.

Alex Partridge 8:46 [laughs]

Richard Pink 8:47 Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Like, "This is me. This is me. This is me." But, but I remember some really strong emotions, um, from Rox. And actually, from our relationship, it was, it was quite huge because, you know, my story is, it- it's definitely not as deep as Rox's, but when we first got together, um, there were some of the behaviors that, through my 35 years or 34 years of, of existence, would translate her behavior to she doesn't care, or, like, if she says she's gonna meet at this time and is late, or messes up the flat after I've tidied up, or says one thing and then does another, or s- forgets that I exist and doesn't text. All of that sort of stuff, you think, "Oh, this person isn't really interested." But actually, it was through, through the diagnosis and, and the subsequent learning that we've, we've been able to find a relationship that, you know, I can probably comfortably say is happier than we ever thought w- was possible, really.

Alex Partridge 9:51 We, we were chatting before we started filming. We were saying the statistics of relationships, the outcomes when there's ADHD in the mix but it perhaps isn't understood or it isn't managed or it isn't spoken about, it, are pretty dire. Um, but when you h- have an understanding of ADHD and, and you, and you recognize it and you s- communicate together, the outcomes are actually really good. Do you think, h- how, do you think the understanding of ADHD is, is, is paramount to, to having a successful relationship with, when ADHD is involved?

Roxanne Emery 10:24 We say quite brutally that we probably wouldn't be together had we not known, because those behaviors, um, I can take one in particular. When I was late for your birthday meal.

Richard Pink 10:40 Mm.

Roxanne Emery 10:41 Mm.

Richard Pink 10:42 I thought it was gonna be the anniversary that you forgot, but let's, let's go with birthday.

Alex Partridge 10:46 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 10:48 [laughs] So I'd booked him a birthday meal in this attempt, 'cause I had forgotten the previous anniversary, in this attempt to redeem myself and show that I could do it.

Roxanne Emery 11:00 So I'd booked his favorite restaurant. Um, I was working in London that day, so I was, I was getting the train down to meet him. Catalog of ADHD errors. Getting on the wrong Tube, so missed 10 minutes. Running through London Victoria, just not able to, to see the signs. End up missing the train. So I'm having a panic attack, thinking I've messed up again, on his birthday. What kind of horrible person does that? Having to ring him to say I'm late, and you remember, like, at dinner, I then ruined dinner 'cause I was, like, having panic attacks, being like, "You're gonna break up with me. You hate me. I'm so sorry." Like, the self-hatred I would feel when I messed up, I didn't have language to explain, and I knew that I was upsetting you, and you didn't, you just had this person promising to do better and then messing up again. It must have been so frustrating.

Richard Pink 12:02 Y- yeah, the, the thing is, though, is of course understanding that it's ADHD will only help to, to a degree. So, um, it, it, there's that in- But from the neurotypical or, or the, the other person's side, it still takes a tremendous amount of work because we're human still. So some of the things that aren't Rox's fault at all will still create sort of, or activate me emotionally, whether it be frustration or, or whatever. And, and I think it's, it's those moments that I personally have had to work on for the last two or three years of being able to be really calm and being able to communicate in a calm way, express how it's made me feel, but also acknowledge that I know it's not your fault. So it's not a... So, 'cause it then becomes something that you can work on together rather than me against-

Alex Partridge 13:01 Mm

Richard Pink 13:01 ... Rox. It's sort of both of us against sometimes some quite frustrating ADH- ADHD sort of symptoms. Not just frustrating for me, but obviously [laughs] Rox as well.

Alex Partridge 13:11 [laughs] It, it sounds like you've really accepted ADHD in, in the relationship, and that understanding is helping so much.

Alex Partridge 13:21 When you got diagnosed, w- did your, was there acceptance within your family?

Richard Pink 13:27 Oh, you went there.

Alex Partridge 13:28 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 13:31 Probably gonna get upset, but it's fine. Um-

Richard Pink 13:36 We can-

Roxanne Emery 13:36 No, it's fine. It's all good. I think it's important.

Richard Pink 13:38 She loves a cry, don't I?

Roxanne Emery 13:39 I do. I love a cry.

Richard Pink 13:41 So am I.

Roxanne Emery 13:41 That's what three years of therapy does-

Alex Partridge 13:42 [laughs]

Richard Pink 13:42 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 13:42 ... teaches you to cry. A very expensive lesson in crying. Um, I had hoped that it might... And it's a bit silly really because, um, my mum's not here anymore, so it's just my dad and my stepmom. And I remember feeling kind of excited to tell them. The reason it's silly is because we've never spoken about emotions. We don't speak about difficult things. Um, so it was barking up the wrong tree. I was going somewhere for validation where it's never been. I don't know why I thought AD- like, "It's official. [laughs] You can't not like me for these things." Um, and I remember they were visiting us in our, in our new house, and I just, like, dropped it really awkward. [laughs] I was like, "I've got some news. I've got ADHD." My dad just looked away, um, never said a, anything about it. And my stepmom said, "That's because you were coddled when you were younger." And that was it. Uh, yeah.

Richard Pink 14:57 It's quite a tough one.

Roxanne Emery 14:57 You take over 'cause [laughs]

Richard Pink 14:58 The, shall I take over?

Roxanne Emery 15:00 Yeah.

Richard Pink 15:00 Um, obviously quite an emotive topic, and actually replicated quite a lot on, on, online-

Roxanne Emery 15:08 Mm

Richard Pink 15:08 ... from negative comments around whether that be it's not real, or it's fake, or it's, you're using it as an excuse, and it was very much a, uh, Rox's dad was a schoolteacher in his profession, and he always had this view that it was just the naughty kids, you know? [laughs] Again, and so-

Roxanne Emery 15:26 Not his fault. He was born in the '50s

Richard Pink 15:29 Yeah, yeah.

Roxanne Emery 15:30 Didn't have it.

Richard Pink 15:30 Mm.

Roxanne Emery 15:31 And my dad, we giggle because my dad, uh, he has special interests [laughs] in-

Richard Pink 15:37 He's definitely, yeah, he's definitely-

Roxanne Emery 15:39 In-

Richard Pink 15:39 ... on the spectrum. [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 15:40 Special interest in, like, nature photographer, he, photography. He sets up a little camera every night-

Richard Pink 15:45 Mm

Roxanne Emery 15:45 ... to capture the garden. He goes on a bike ride every morning at 8:00 AM. He has a cup of tea at night. He will not change his routine. So he definitely has some symptoms of neurodivergence. I don't wanna try and diagnose somebody else. He hasn't made that decision. But I can definitely see that within him, and I sometimes wonder, you know, it's just the older generation. They never received any mental health help at all. It's a relatively new thing, and I sometimes wonder if it might just feel a bit annoying, um, people trying to understand themselves and get support. "Well, we didn't have that." I can really see, taken a lot of therapy, [laughs] I can really see why they may not want to see me as somebody with a condition.

Alex Partridge 16:35 Mm. 100%, I can relate to it so much. And I think lots of people can, that you, you rely on people close to you to be a sounding board and to really listen and, especially with something like this. But w- the generational divide really lacks that understanding bridge. So many people of the older generation, I still, I still think look at ADHD as something that is, is not real or is not, they don't give it that validation. And it sounds like that's an echo of your experience with, with your dad.

Roxanne Emery 17:04 Absolutely. I think the positive side of it is I'm sure that's part of the reason why we do what we do, and in particular, the stories that we chose to kind of tell in our book were very personal, and they were quite-

Alex Partridge 17:21 Mm

Roxanne Emery 17:21 ... emotional. I think that's because, like, I felt the pain of being so deeply understood, misunderstood, sorry, for so long. It's kind of wanting to, to be understood by others and them also be understood. So it kind of has a nice ending. I like to put it that way anyway.

Richard Pink 17:42 I think as well, uh, you know, we, we, we've touched on family, but just going back to one of my earlier points is if everybody was, if, say we could click our fingers and everybody was really accepting, then I don't think we would have-

Roxanne Emery 17:57 [laughs] True

Richard Pink 17:58 ... don't think we would have the issues that we do, you know?

Alex Partridge 18:01 Mm.

Richard Pink 18:01 So part of our, if, uh, I'll probably mention our next bit that isn't out until next year, but that's about just how low the self-esteem and confidence is of the ADHD

Richard Pink 18:14 community, that we did a poll around what they think of themselves, and actually it's, it's, it was brutal. It was like, uh, you know- I'm faking it, I'm just lazy, s- uh, like I'm just worthless. That, that's not just come within them, that's come from everybody else, family and, and, and society. And it... And that's what, I think that's probably what drives us to do what we do and create the community that we've created

Roxanne Emery 18:41 Rich is talking about this poll that we did-

Richard Pink 18:43 Mm

Roxanne Emery 18:43 ... on our, just on Instagram. What's your core beliefs about yourself? Just opened up the question, and it, it was like I was crying, obviously. [laughs]

Richard Pink 18:54 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 18:54 And just this list, I'm broken, I'm lazy. I, I don't deserve love. I quit everything I start. And it's so easy to look at ADHD and kind of look at the DSM. Do you have problems with time? And are you a bit disorganized? Do you lose things? To look at those and almost go, "Well, it's, it's not that bad." But when you look at someone that has lived with those symptoms for a very long time and what the world has reflected back to them, and what their core beliefs are now telling them, it's actually pretty urgent that we talk about it and we start to understand it. 'Cause it can destroy people's chance of happiness and of reaching and kind of self-actualization and finding love and going after their dreams. It can destroy it, 'cause you'll think that you're not worthy or that you're gonna ruin it. So it's really important to talk about those things.

Alex Partridge 19:48 Absolutely. There's so many aspects of society now that just aren't catered to support neurodiversity. And the skills that I think neurodiversity bring, if you go back in time to when humans were in tribes, you know, we would be the hunter-gatherers, we would be the people who were stoking the fire, we would be the ones who were watching over the camp for predators. But you put those types of people now in an office and expect them to stare at a screen nine till five or, or do other mundane tasks that aren't tapping into that, that intuitive hunter mind, then of course we're gonna struggle in certain situations. I think if you can allow children and, and adults with ADHD and other conditions to, to see that they're, they're, they're living with a difference and not a disorder, I think that's so empowering.

Richard Pink 20:35 I, I think you're s- you're so right and, and it's something that in the last couple of weeks has really been on my mind, specifically for the corporate environment. 'Cause obviously me and Rox are fortunate and privileged enough to, to do the job that we do and create videos and, and you haven't really got a, a boss, so to speak. But, you know, I was, I worked in a bank for 20 years, and I think about the, just the setup that we have. Um, and you know, even the banking hall, we had 10 desks all next to each other in a busy banking hall. That would've been a sensory nightmare. There's just things that just aren't catered for.

Alex Partridge 21:11 You guys have spoken very candidly in the past about your addictions, and you've been sober for five years, and Rich, three. How does life compare now to when you were drinking?

Roxanne Emery 21:27 Um, it's a lot harder. You know? It's a lot harder because you have to feel everything. You have to witness everything. The pain of the past is right here. You are called to look at your own behavior and take accountability and responsibility. But hard choices make beautiful lives. I really, really truly believe that. So that choice not to drink, for me also not to do drugs, Rich has his own, own version of this, um, although it was a hard choice, it transformed my life, I mean, like a 180. Five years ago, I was on my 10th broken relationship, £40,000 in debt. I couldn't afford £300 a month to stay in a spare room. In my 30s, someone that as a kid was, like, a gifted kid. Like, the shame that comes with just failing over and over again, um, just absolute self-hatred, a true belief that I was, like, worthless. And I walked into a meeting and, um, I remember one of the first things I heard was, "If you get sober, you can live a life beyond your wildest dreams." And I remember thinking, "Not me. Cool for you guys. It's too late for me." Because my dream at that point was to be a musician, and I'd kind of squandered many an opportunity to do that. Five years later, I'm, not only am I a musician and I'm touring and releasing music, like, that ultimate dream has come back to life-

Alex Partridge 23:13 Mm

Roxanne Emery 23:13 ... it's, there's things I never dreamed of. I never dreamed up somebody like this. I couldn't have imagined someone so wonderful and kind. I didn't know they existed.

Alex Partridge 23:23 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 23:23 So, like, him, and then my step-kids, Lily and Sair, it, it's, it is, it's beyond my wildest dreams. So sobriety, although a hard choice, has given just the most wonderful life.

Richard Pink 23:38 I am lucky number 11-

Alex Partridge 23:40 [laughs]

Richard Pink 23:40 ... in the, the age-old saying, lucky number 11 in relationships. Mine's a little bit different. I've, I was, only had two relationships or re- proper relationships before Rox. Both, both marriages as well. So got both of them for seven years and then, and then that, and then that sort of disappeared, and then w- I met Rox. But actually, the, the addiction, so alcoholism and also, um, I had a gambling addiction. And it's really funny about people's perceptions of, of addictions, and alcohol's a really easy one to speak of. So I wasn't waking up at 2:00 o'clock in the morning and drinking vodka or anything like that, but I needed alcohol every day, as soon as I got back from work, just to calm my nervous system, and it was- You know, that was helping me, uh, calm down and, and, and regulate myself, I suppose. But the, the, the addiction that really took me to the depths of low was my gambling addiction.

Alex Partridge 24:40 Mm.

Richard Pink 24:40 Um, and I, you know, I would always have considered myself fairly intelligent, fairly disciplined. You know, I was a dad at 18. I was a provider, sensible. But I was, that took me to places where I completely lost control. So I was spinning slot machines with money that I didn't have, using credit cards to fund it, and stuff like that. And, and I was doing it whilst driving. Just some of the behavior that, that, that I had so much shame around actually, and it wasn't until my first Gamblers Anonymous meeting that I just cried for about 10 minutes solid. Like, you know that uncontrollable crying as well?

Alex Partridge 25:16 Mm.

Richard Pink 25:16 Like n- never, never experienced it before. Um, and then, yeah, it, it, it, that was the start point for me, but I completely agree. It was a lot harder, but all of a sudden I had to feel all of these emotions, and that's when I started therapy, and that was to sort of unpack some childhood sexual abuse that I'd gone through. And so it, it all started, I started to make sense of, of me. Um, but yeah, a lot harder, but a million times better. So th- they say that, you know, being hard isn't, isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Alex Partridge 25:50 Mm-hmm. Thank you both for sharing that so openly. I mean, it's, there's such a, such a link between ADHD and addiction. I know you're not ADHD, Rich, but I've spoken to so many people on this podcast, and you just see it, the link. It's like they're chasing dopamine in unhealthy places, and then that poor impulse control makes it hard to moderate. Um, so to hear someone like yourself be so open about it, I think will really, really help, um, people that might be listening who, who relate to that struggle. Um,

Alex Partridge 26:24 how's your mental health now, Roxanne?

Roxanne Emery 26:28 I think it's pretty good. But good, I didn't know what good looked like.

Alex Partridge 26:35 Mm.

Roxanne Emery 26:36 So, um, for example, when I first went to therapy, I thought, "I'm going to fix these particular problems so I can be normal." I thought good was calm all the time, um, maybe pretty stoic, successful, and what [laughs] I've realized is that's totally not what good mental health is. And good mental health is the ability to still feel anxious and depressed and even low self-esteem, but to tolerate it with new skills.

Alex Partridge 27:11 Mm.

Roxanne Emery 27:13 So I'm still as messed up as I was five years ago. I just have way better ways of coping with it, a much better support system, not turning to alcohol, turning to funny little breathing techniques-

Alex Partridge 27:26 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 27:27 ... or talking to you. So I'm very, I- I'm trying to not say, like, too emotional, but I'm very emotional and very sensitive, and actually it's, it's allowing that to be part of who I am, and that not to be shamed.

Alex Partridge 27:44 Mm.

Roxanne Emery 27:46 A lot of days I'm very happy. A lot of days I still feel a lot of sadness, but the ability to feel both of those things and hold them without losing myself, I think is the sign that things are a bit better for me now.

Richard Pink 27:57 This is so [laughs] fascinating, 'cause I think we both fell into the trap of, of when we started therapy thinking it was like a video game, and like-

Roxanne Emery 28:05 [laughs]

Richard Pink 28:05 ... and you sort, you've done therapy now, I've completed the game, I'm fine. Like, put the console away.

Roxanne Emery 28:09 Oh, dear.

Richard Pink 28:09 Like, all good. And it, and we both stopped therapy for a while, and now we're both back in therapy, and it's, and it's that just realization. It's not like, you know, your, your health in regards to, it's, you know, some of the physical things. It's probably a lifelong, lifelong thing-

Roxanne Emery 28:26 It's lifelong

Richard Pink 28:26 ... to work on your mental health, yeah.

Roxanne Emery 28:27 It's lifelong, and what a wonderful thing, um, to work on forever, especially in a parent capacity. Because, you know, for example, if you think of Rich's kids-

Alex Partridge 28:38 Mm

Roxanne Emery 28:39 ... watching a father become sober, go to therapy, start speaking to them in different ways, um, start being able to show more emotional intimacy or vulnerability or setting boundaries, like all this healthy stuff that we get to model now, it's just s- it's a amazing privilege when you start on that journey of, like, self-recovery.

Alex Partridge 29:03 It's amazing. It's, it's relatable. I've, I've been in the rooms before. Um, to h- to have that moment where you could, you realize there was another way to deal with that anxiety and that racing mind, and you mentioned to s- to slow down your nervous system. Um, completely relate to that, and actually it is so freeing to actually just accept that you are human. You're still gonna get that anxiety. You're still gonna feel low sometimes, but actually there's other ways to deal with it, rather than reaching for the bottle or the, the s- the slot machines or whatever your vice is. It's hugely powerful.

Alex Partridge 29:35 This is a really interesting part. We're gonna try a new segment to the show. It's called The Washing Machine of Woes.

Richard Pink 29:43 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 29:43 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 29:43 And it's this-

Richard Pink 29:44 Washing Machine of Woes

Alex Partridge 29:44 ... Washing Machine of Woes.

Roxanne Emery 29:45 Love it.

Alex Partridge 29:45 And it's inspired by a great American author called Regina Brett, who said, "If we all throw our problems in a pile and saw everyone else's, we'd grab ours back." So I asked my ADHD Chatter community to share with us their ADHD problems, but instead of throwing them on a pile, we thought we'd throw them in a washing machine.

Richard Pink 30:09 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 30:09 Because a washing machine is quite symbolic of- [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 30:13 It's, it's, um, it is-

Alex Partridge 30:13 ... of the ADHD Chatter problem, which is forgetfulness.

Roxanne Emery 30:16 Yes.

Alex Partridge 30:16 Many of us leave our washing ma- in, [laughs] in the, uh, in the machine

Roxanne Emery 30:18 This is a reminder for listeners-

Alex Partridge 30:20 Exactly. Yeah, yeah

Roxanne Emery 30:21 ... to go and get your wet laundry.

Alex Partridge 30:22 Everyone now jumping up-

Roxanne Emery 30:23 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 30:23 ... and running downstairs to their washing machine. [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 30:25 Oh. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 30:27 Um, so I'll reach in. I'll pull out a, a, a b- a woe-

Roxanne Emery 30:30 Okay

Alex Partridge 30:30 ... from the washing machine And I'll read it to my guest and see if there's relatability with the idea that it might make people feel that their problems aren't as bad as they think. "I've got ADHD, which means I'm really good at masking my emotions. On the outside, I can look bubbly, cheerful, and it seems like nothing bothers me, but on the inside, I'm anxious and my brain never shuts up." Do you relate to that?

Roxanne Emery 31:03 100%.

Alex Partridge 31:04 Me too. [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 31:05 100%, and masking is such an interesting topic. It's one I have overthought. [laughs] I overthink everything, actually. Um, but I've overthought it so much to the point where, well, we all need a mask, right?

Alex Partridge 31:22 Mm.

Roxanne Emery 31:22 Because I have to mask a bit if I'm gonna go to Tesco's or exist in this world or have conversations with anyone. We all need an element of a mask. But with the ADHD mask, what this person has, has hit on, and it's so real, is the internal chaos covered by the external facade of happiness. And my whole life, I was the most bubbly person in the room, super loud, super outgoing, first to the bar for a drink, last to leave, um, maybe bordering on a little bit chaotic there at times. Nobody would've known that, that internally I was super anxious, depressed, self-hating, all these horrible things. And even in sobriety, even with wonderful partner, we've both done therapy, unmasking that, showing what's really go- going on inside, has been so difficult. And the one thing I like to say to people is, unmasking begins in safe places.

Alex Partridge 32:24 Mm.

Roxanne Emery 32:24 So you don't have to try and just go and be yourself every day at work. That's, that's a little too much. Let's just try in the space where you're safe. Hopefully, that's home. If not, perhaps it's with a friend or it's with a therapist, and it's just beginning to tell the truth. So very often [laughs] with Rich, he would ask me, "Are you okay?" And I'd be sat there like this. "Are you okay?" "I'm fine."

Alex Partridge 32:50 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 32:52 Obviously crippled by anxiety, but I didn't know how to say I'm falling apart, because there wasn't a reason. And gradually ov- over the years, I start to answer those questions with, "No, I'm not okay. Sometimes I don't even know why." And then very often once I vocalize it, that might come with tears, a- and that's where you start in safe places. What, what's your thought on...

Richard Pink 33:16 Well, I think quite often, and if I reflect on, you know, being an observer of you, that the masking thing, I think quite often is coupled with RSD. So, like, the reason that people pleaser or, or whatever, or saying yes to everyone or being that, that fun person, is a bit of fear probably that comes to what externally people will, will think.

Alex Partridge 33:42 Mm.

Richard Pink 33:42 'Cause it's not always, you know, Rox is absolutely right in that it starts with safe people, but actually sometimes it, it might just stay with safe people, because-

Alex Partridge 33:54 Mm

Richard Pink 33:55 ... true vulnerability, it's, it's quite a scary thing to show that to everybody that you meet.

Alex Partridge 34:01 Mm.

Richard Pink 34:01 Like, it's not always gonna be accepted and-

Roxanne Emery 34:04 I've just cried on a podcast.

Richard Pink 34:05 Exce- well.

Roxanne Emery 34:06 [laughs]

Richard Pink 34:07 [laughs] Yeah, that's-

Roxanne Emery 34:08 Unmasking, baby. [laughs]

Richard Pink 34:10 [laughs] It's very true. But I think, you know, that, that definitely I think will play a part, because people will, will so- be so worried about what others will think of them, that they force themselves to mask.

Roxanne Emery 34:22 100%. You must be the most likable person in the room.

Richard Pink 34:27 Mm.

Roxanne Emery 34:28 And for some reason, we think that struggling makes us not likable, but it's so funny, it's the other way around.

Alex Partridge 34:35 It's so interesting what you said, Roxanne, about, it's actually just a human part of existence, is masking. I don't think it's an exclusive thing to neurodiversity. I think most people probably do mask subconsciously or, or consciously, some people more so than others. Like, sometimes you might just feel that you're in a not very good mood, but you feel like if you don't smile in that particular occasion, then you might just come across as off.

Richard Pink 34:59 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 34:59 And then you'll be anxious about the feeling of coming across off, so you put on a smile. You come home at the end of the day with an aching jaw, um, and that's masking, I suppose. Uh, and, uh, do you, Rich, do you relate to the concept of masking?

Richard Pink 35:13 Hugely. So I think, um, my background of working in the bank, I was a manager. I had 50 people work for me. Um, my whole corporate existence was, was masking.

Alex Partridge 35:25 Mm.

Richard Pink 35:25 I wasn't, I didn't always feel like being a leader or always feel like being positive or I'd, I al- you know, I didn't feel like delivering messages in the way that the corporate envi- corporate environment had, you know, um, I, I needed to. So yeah, I, I, I hugely relate to that. And actually since leaving work, I'm completely different, I think, this year than, than I was for 20 years. I was just on a treadmill, just doing all of the things that I'd trained to do-

Alex Partridge 35:58 Mm

Richard Pink 35:58 ... for, for 20 years, and now I'm, yeah, I'm really different.

Roxanne Emery 36:01 I think it's quite awesome that all these tools we find to help people with neurodivergence kind of can help everyone. The unmasking, it's just such a wonderful thought exercise. Where am I pretending to be something I'm not, and is, is that something I'm happy with or not? I always think, um, some of my early jobs, I've had a million, obviously, but were in retail. Well, [laughs] you know, it's quite famous that if you work in retail, you don't really like the customer. They can be a bit annoying. Sorry.

Alex Partridge 36:34 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 36:35 Um, but you, you must mask 'cause it's part of the job. So it's really interesting to just start to notice where it's coming in and why. What a wonderful question.

Alex Partridge 36:46 Keen to talk about your book. Super exciting. Um, you had a first- your first book, huge success, Dirty Laundry. How did that happen?

Roxanne Emery 36:56 Oh, gosh. We were in the car driving to see your brother, and we were probably a year into content creation. And it kind of, it had gone from the, the tampon story to something [laughs] that we realized was providing some value to people, and we wanted to do more. We wanted to do something more. And I think the question... We were listening to a podcast, actually, with Hank Green, and he said something very interesting, which is, in the most simple question, "What would help your audience the most?" And our answer was, "We'd love to talk to them for longer," 'cause 20-second TikToks are amazing, but there's so much more kind of depth and complexity-

Alex Partridge 37:42 Mm

Roxanne Emery 37:42 ... to how we figured out how to live quite happily with ADHD. Um, so I think we decided in the car, wrote the first chapters in notes, and then began the very interesting journey of writing a book when you have ADHD.

Richard Pink 37:59 It was such an amazing experience, actually, and I remember, it's probably one of those moments in life that I'll remember forever. I remember being in the car. I remember what the road looked like, and I remember us agreeing, actually, "Yeah, let's, let's do this. Let's write a book." And then I think it was a mixture of Rox's creativity and my structure that actually led to a completed manuscript rather than a half-done-

Roxanne Emery 38:22 [laughs] Oh, I wouldn't have finished-

Richard Pink 38:23 ... manuscript

Roxanne Emery 38:24 ... but not a chance.

Richard Pink 38:25 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 38:26 He has like a writ- [laughs] a writing schedule and all these imposed deadlines, and they weren't real 'cause we had decided them. But even that, like a fake deadline, was enough-

Richard Pink 38:39 Yeah, yeah

Roxanne Emery 38:39 ... to kind of drag me into the office-

Richard Pink 38:41 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 38:42 ... to sit down and type. Wonderful.

Alex Partridge 38:44 I've seen so many, so many comments on your posts in response to your book saying how it's helped, how it's changed, saved lives, how it's given so much color and context to people that have ADHD, and how it's given so many people an understanding. How do you feel when you see so many comments like that in response to your work?

Roxanne Emery 39:05 Just, like, utterly grateful and a bit shocked. Um, of course, there's the kind of ADHD mad idea, "Let's write a book."

Alex Partridge 39:15 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 39:16 And then there's the crippling RSD, ooh, very human, "Oh my God, what if it's awful?" And perhaps even more the shame of who are we? Who are we to write a book? Who am I, this, like, grand loser in life? Who wants to hear from me? Um, so to have it resonate, and I think the thing about the book, we didn't want to write another book sort of about ADHD that was, uh, clinical or descriptive. They exist. There's loads of them. They're brilliant. Um, I think you've had, is it Leanne?

Alex Partridge 39:52 Leanne Martland.

Roxanne Emery 39:52 You've had Leanne on the-

Alex Partridge 39:53 Yes, yes

Roxanne Emery 39:53 ... o- on the, on the podcast.

Alex Partridge 39:54 Yeah.

Roxanne Emery 39:54 Brilliant. Um, so for us it was the messy, human, real life. Um, so to see that resonate, it's just, it's just wonderful. It's just so wonderful. Feel so grateful.

Richard Pink 40:09 I think for me as well, like, the, the people that stop us when we're, when we're walking, um, and start engaging with us, w- we're seeing a shift from, "Oh my God, I know you from TikTok," to, "Oh my God, I've read your book."

Alex Partridge 40:22 Mm.

Richard Pink 40:22 Which is quite an amazing feeling, and it's probably given us the confidence to write the next one.

Roxanne Emery 40:29 Yeah, definitely inspired by the people that we meet and what they say, and your words just mean so much that it's given kind of context and color.

Alex Partridge 40:38 Mm.

Roxanne Emery 40:39 That's really what we wanted to do. This is what it can really look like in everyday life, and people have said it's changed or saved their life, and what a thing to be able to do.

Alex Partridge 40:53 I saw the, um, amazing picture where you guys went to the supermarket to find the Sunday Times newspaper, and you saw your book on the bestseller list. In those moments, do you feel imposter syndrome?

Roxanne Emery 41:03 Oh, yeah. I feel it every day. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 41:05 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 41:05 I feel it right now. Um, but of course, gradually, the, the work of therapy, wonderful relationships, there are moments of joy. There's moments of, "Oh my gosh, we've done this." You must feel it with how successful this podcast has become so quick. It's like equal parts amazing and pride, and then, "Oh-"

Alex Partridge 41:28 Yeah. [laughs] "Who am I?" to an extent.

Roxanne Emery 41:29 "... who am I?" [laughs]

Alex Partridge 41:30 Being a, a spokesperson for ADHD. [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 41:35 I've done so much work on imposter syndrome, um, as, as a singer. I've really [laughs] I've felt it for two decades, and I remember this one thing that really helped me. It was, um, a book by a guy called Seth Godin. He writes a lot about creativity and marketing. He talks about imposter syndrome, and he said, "Everybody's an imposter."

Alex Partridge 41:57 Mm. Yeah.

Roxanne Emery 41:58 Nobody's born a Formula 1 driver, um, a bestselling author, a podcast host. Somebody just has the bravery to step up and do it. We're all imposters, and that really changed the game for me.

Richard Pink 42:12 I think relating to your question there around the, the Sunday Times list, I still, and I, I said this to Rox a couple of weeks ago, I'm still more proud of, and what gives me more confidence is people's comments and, like, the rating and the reviews of the book.

Alex Partridge 42:29 Mm.

Richard Pink 42:29 Because actually, you know, in week one, I guess, if you're, if, if, if, if you've got a big following, you can get into that list, but they haven't necessarily read the book yet. They've just... A lot of people have bought it.

Alex Partridge 42:41 Mm.

Richard Pink 42:41 So essentially the-

Roxanne Emery 42:42 It could be that they haven't [laughs]

Richard Pink 42:43 ... the reviews and the people that said-

Roxanne Emery 42:45 Yeah

Richard Pink 42:45 ... that they've had so much value from it and that they've bought loads of copies and given it to all of their family members so they understand, it was that that was like, wow, that's something to be incredibly proud of.

Alex Partridge 42:55 And your next book, um, is there much you can tell us about that?

Roxanne Emery 42:59 Yes. So it's called Small Talk.

Alex Partridge 43:02 Small Talk. Love it.

Roxanne Emery 43:03 Yeah [laughs] .

Alex Partridge 43:03 Yeah [laughs] .

Roxanne Emery 43:04 What neurodivergent people hate.

Alex Partridge 43:05 Yeah. Yes [laughs] .

Roxanne Emery 43:06 Um, but it's kind of a play on how we can talk down to ourselves internally. Rich mentioned it earlier. It comes from this poll we did where we asked people their core beliefs, and when we read those, it was just, it was a real shock moment to see how much self-hatred, low self-esteem, self-doubt there was within the ADHD community, and realized that's what we needed to address. So it's essentially the 10 horrible self-beliefs that we can often carry and what we can do to work through them. So chapters like, "I Am Lazy" and "Everybody Hates Me," and I kind of work through that from childhood to adulthood-

Alex Partridge 43:56 Mm

Roxanne Emery 43:56 ... where those beliefs came from, the negative impacts, and how to start shifting. And then Rich talks about, you know, almost supporting somebody through that journey and what he's witnessed when those beliefs start shifting.

Alex Partridge 44:12 Mm.

Roxanne Emery 44:12 Um, so it's very much... Like, I relate so much [laughs] to buying every book available and-

Alex Partridge 44:19 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 44:19 ... every podcast to try and fix myself.

Alex Partridge 44:22 Mm.

Roxanne Emery 44:22 It's very much not a fixing book. It's very much a, you're not actually broken, and it's that, it's that that we need to learn, 'cause that's what changes life.

Alex Partridge 44:33 Mm.

Richard Pink 44:34 I've, I've got to tell them how we got here, though.

Roxanne Emery 44:37 I know [laughs] .

Richard Pink 44:38 So, like, this is, this, like, encapsulates ADHD. So obviously, we were contractually obliged to write a- another book from, uh, for Penguin. Signed a, a two-book deal. So we were halfway through writing the second book, which was called Late Bloomers. Um, and it was all about, it was very much a l- a lot more positive about how to succeed and, and a bit more of our story and stuff.

Alex Partridge 45:04 Mm.

Richard Pink 45:04 And it was through this poll, it was actually to help write one of the chapters for Late Bloomers, and because it was so vast and it was, I don't know, 5,000 or 10,000 respondents, and it was all this, Rox then decided that the book that we were halfway through writing, a month and a half before the delivery date of the new manuscript was due, she decided to, like, throw that away and wanted to start a new book. So that was such an interesting call that we had with our publisher to say, "I know that this is what we said we were gonna do, but we're actually, don't wanna do any of this now, and we wanna start afresh."

Alex Partridge 45:40 Mm.

Richard Pink 45:40 It was very ADHD-

Alex Partridge 45:41 [laughs]

Richard Pink 45:41 ... the whole experience.

Alex Partridge 45:43 I love that. And if people, if people wanna s- pre-order the new book, is that possible yet? Or when's...

Roxanne Emery 45:48 Yeah, I believe it is, actually. We haven't got a cover or anything like that. We're still working through the million options.

Alex Partridge 45:54 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 45:55 But I think it is on Amazon, um, for pre-order as just Small Talk.

Alex Partridge 45:58 Amazing. I'll put the link to that in the show notes.

Roxanne Emery 46:00 Thank you so much.

Alex Partridge 46:01 Um, just to close, what

Alex Partridge 46:04 do you say to people who say ADHD is just a trend?

Roxanne Emery 46:13 Um, I guess my first thing would be, why? Why are you invested in it not being real? And to wonder whether there's something within their lives. Have you had to struggle with these things alone? Because to be so invested in tearing something down that's helping people must be touching on something-

Alex Partridge 46:34 Mm

Roxanne Emery 46:34 ... in you. They probably won't tell me that. But [laughs] after that, I would then just say, you know, in the same way we've had left-handedness, when that used to be beaten out of people in schools-

Alex Partridge 46:50 Mm

Roxanne Emery 46:50 ... and then when it wasn't anymore, we saw a graph. Oh, oh my God, it's a trend. It's a trend. They're all becoming left-handed. Well, no, it's because we're not beating it out of people anymore, and there's a lot more awareness that you can actually be left-handed-

Alex Partridge 47:01 Mm

Roxanne Emery 47:02 ... and be okay. We just have more awareness of it, and it's a wonderful thing that adults aren't walking around living with an internal script that they're broken, they're a problem, they're a loser, they're lazy. I can testament, I can be a testament to when you find out, you can actually become a really valuable part of your family and in your wider community.

Alex Partridge 47:27 Mm.

Roxanne Emery 47:27 Why would we want to deny anybody that and call it a trend?

Richard Pink 47:32 I think as well, and I'll, I'll try and stay, you know, correct in, in the way that I answer this, um, but those that would say it, I suppose everybody's got the right to believe whatever they want to believe. But certainly on our platforms and in our community, if they wanna go out of their way to verbalize it, we've got no real interest in, in engaging with them. I think it's, it's more from a reaction. So actually, for our community and, and those that would feel invalidated from comments, like, "It's just an excuse, you're making it up," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, we just simply block and delete them-

Alex Partridge 48:11 Mm

Richard Pink 48:11 ... to make sure that the actual platforms are a safe space for people to-

Alex Partridge 48:15 Mm.

Richard Pink 48:15 And it's, and it's so lovely, actually. Like, yeah, they get, they get comfort that they're, they feel seen from our videos, but actually, when you see them talk to each other in the comments, it's a real sense of-

Alex Partridge 48:27 Mm

Richard Pink 48:27 ... of a family, a community. So we've got no interest in engaging with anyone. They can-

Alex Partridge 48:32 Mm.

Richard Pink 48:32 There, there's probably forums for it. I'm not interested. They can go and find them, I guess.

Alex Partridge 48:37 No, no, that's perfect.

Alex Partridge 48:39 S- some people, a lot of people actually with ADHD, when they were younger, they get, they were told perhaps they were too much or too intense. I think you alluded to that earlier. So what, what would you say to people who say that people with ADHD are too much?

Roxanne Emery 48:53 Just say that people are different, and- Maybe they're too much or too sensitive in comparison to you, but that doesn't mean that they're broken or wrong. There's such a diverse, um, amount of people and brains and, and ways of being, and that's beautiful. That's wonderful. We need diverse people in families, on teams, back to you saying in the hunter-gatherer days.

Richard Pink 49:18 Mm-hmm.

Roxanne Emery 49:18 We exist within community, so to shame somebody for being different, I feel it's pretty shortsighted.

Richard Pink 49:25 Mm.

Roxanne Emery 49:26 Um, and I think it's a shame, but I also can understand, as the world is changing and we're always constantly learning new things, can be difficult for people to adapt, so I also don't want to shame them back. I don't think that's the right way to do it.

Richard Pink 49:43 I, yeah, I think y- neurodivergent or not, like, humans can be t- I'm quite introverted, so, like, when I spend too much time with too many humans, I'm like, "No, thank you. I'll-

Roxanne Emery 49:52 [laughs]

Richard Pink 49:52 ... I'll sit in a dark room." But I just, I think that the, the key thing is, is that there's just no need for shame. Like, people can go, I can go home and listen to a podcast or watch a program. I don't need to, I don't need to shame or insult somebody because of what, what my needs are.

Roxanne Emery 50:10 Mm.

Richard Pink 50:10 Amazing, and just finally,

Richard Pink 50:12 it'd be interesting to ask a, an ADHDer and a non-ADHDer what your most impulsive thing you've ever done is. [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 50:19 Oh, God. So these days, I have protection against the, the most imp- so I still try and do things, but you will often just put the brakes on. So it's gonna be-

Richard Pink 50:34 A bubble wrap around you. [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 50:35 A little bit of bubble wrap, which is really good. So it's gonna be, oh my God, it's, it's truly awful, actually. It's truly awful, but I'm going to share it.

Richard Pink 50:45 Oh, no. What are you gonna share?

Roxanne Emery 50:47 The money, the house money story.

Richard Pink 50:49 Oh, right. Okay.

Roxanne Emery 50:51 Because why not? 'Cause obviously, like, I've got loads of tattoos. I've had a million jobs, a million partners. That's all impulsive, but this-

Richard Pink 50:57 Not a million, 10.

Roxanne Emery 50:59 10, sorry. [laughs]

Richard Pink 50:59 Lucky number 11 will remember.

Roxanne Emery 51:01 A million and one.

Richard Pink 51:02 [laughs]

Roxanne Emery 51:02 Oh my gosh. Um, somebody that I knew years and years ago basically asked me to invest in this business. He was, like, building houses and, um, had off-plan houses and sold it to me as, you know, this get-rich-quick scheme, and you buy this off-plan house. Um, somebody that I knew from my work life, and I had an amount of money that, um, a large amount of money that had been, um, given to me. Long story, but my mum had died through medical negligence with the NHS, and we'd won a, a lawsuit basically. So I had this amount of money, and I thought, "That sounds great." And I had some advice, um, to speak to lawyers, and I didn't do it because it was impulsive, and this person was saying, "This is the best thing ever," and I trusted him. So I transferred over £100,000 to somebody with no legal paperwork, nothing to protect me, and it ended up being a scam. And I lost that money. Still something today that I'm speaking about in therapy and carry so much shame for because of where that money had come from. So that was one of my horror show moments where, my God, I needed the brakes put on, and I needed to, to slow down, but I didn't.

Richard Pink 52:30 Mine's a lot more fun than that.

Roxanne Emery 52:32 Good. Thank God.

Richard Pink 52:33 Um, mine, quite simply, is I left a 20-year career where I became, I was quite a senior bank manager, to become [laughs] an author and a content creator. Like, I, I smile when I say the words, and I still don't know what to say to people when they say, "What do you do for a living?" So I'm so used to-

Roxanne Emery 52:53 TikTok. [laughs]

Richard Pink 52:54 Yeah, like, I don't, can, what, I'm influence? I don't know.

Roxanne Emery 52:57 Oh.

Richard Pink 52:57 It just sounds a bit cringe, so I don't, I don't, I don't know. But that is, that is the most impulsive thing by a mile.

Roxanne Emery 53:03 Mm.

Richard Pink 53:04 Best-selling author, doesn't sound cringe.

Roxanne Emery 53:06 Yeah, yeah, that's-

Richard Pink 53:06 That sounds, that sounds impressive.

Roxanne Emery 53:07 There you go. Claim it.

Richard Pink 53:08 Yeah. Sounds arrogant, though. That maybe just-

Roxanne Emery 53:10 [laughs]

Richard Pink 53:11 ... what we're talking about.

Roxanne Emery 53:11 I'm a best-selling author. What do, what do you do? [laughs]

Richard Pink 53:14 Yeah, maybe.

Roxanne Emery 53:15 Yeah.

Richard Pink 53:16 This has been fascinating, Richard, Roxanne. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you.

Roxanne Emery 53:20 Thank you.

Richard Pink 53:20 Thank you so much for having us, and everything you do. [outro music]