How To Find Your Purpose in Life with Vee Kativhu

1. 0:00 – 1:50

   Intro

   1. VKVee Kativhu0:00

      What would you wanna do for free if you didn't have to think about bills and all this other stuff? What would you happily dedicate your time to-

   2. AAAli Abdaal0:06

      Mm

   3. VKVee Kativhu0:06

      ... for free? And that thing, that thing is embedded in your purpose. That, that's a good starting point.

   4. AAAli Abdaal0:12

      Hey, friends. How's it going? Welcome back to Deep Dive. In this episode, I have the immense privilege to speak to Vee Kativhu, who has written this book, Empowered. Now, Vee is, like me, an educational YouTuber, but unlike me, she is, like, a published author now, having actually written and published a book. She's, like, mates with Michelle Obama. She's an activist. She does a load of stuff around helping improve access to education for people all around the world. And genuinely, there were some moments in this conversation that really, I, like, brought tears to my eyes just hearing the, the authentic and honest and really inspiring way that Vee naturally speaks about her upbringing and her mum and the stuff that she's doing. And I'm not really one to feel emotional about stuff, but, like, there was something about chatting to Vee for the first time that really, that really got me. So yeah, it was, it was really good, and I hope you guys enjoy the episode as much as I did. So yeah, overall in the episode, we discuss Vee's journey to education and doing this empowerment thing that she's into, and we talk about her mission and purpose that really genuinely does seem to be to g- to do good in the world. And I'm, uh, you know, you'll see in the episode, I get a bit flabbergasted as how, as to how altruistic her motives, like, genuinely are, whereas mine often tend to be far more on the selfish side of things for, like, fame and power and money and all that, all that kinda stuff. Either way, I hope you enjoy the episode. Book is really good. You should check it out. You should read it. It's actually sick, and it's genuinely, like, a really, a really pretty, like, work of art as well. You'll see if you're watching this on, on the YouTube channel. But yeah, I hope you enjoy this conversation between me and Vee. Let's go for it. Vee.

   5. VKVee Kativhu1:30

      [laughs]

   6. AAAli Abdaal1:31

      Welcome, welcome to the show. How are you doing?

   7. VKVee Kativhu1:33

      I'm good, thank you, Ali. How are you?

   8. AAAli Abdaal1:35

      I'm great. I've been following your, your journey on the internet for such a long time, but-

   9. VKVee Kativhu1:38

      Really?

   10. AAAli Abdaal1:38

       ... this is the first time we're actually, we're meeting in real life.

   11. VKVee Kativhu1:40

       I know.

   12. AAAli Abdaal1:40

       Which is very cool.

   13. VKVee Kativhu1:41

       It's, it's quite exciting, and it's quite weird on the internet because you've seen someone every day. You watch their story.

   14. AAAli Abdaal1:46

       Mm.

   15. VKVee Kativhu1:46

       I know you were just in Pakistan. Like, I know so much, but now I'm like, "Oh,

2. 1:50 – 5:00

   Writing Empowered By Vee

   1. VKVee Kativhu1:50

      hi," but I already know so much, and it's quite a weird and backwards-

   2. AAAli Abdaal1:53

      Yeah

   3. VKVee Kativhu1:53

      ... way of doing it, but glad to be here.

   4. AAAli Abdaal1:54

      But it's, it's, it's nice to meet you in the flesh. Um, so you've got this book, ugh, which is, is coming out very sh- very shortly?

   5. VKVee Kativhu2:01

      Yes.

   6. AAAli Abdaal2:01

      I mean, it will, it will, it will be out by the time people see this.

   7. VKVee Kativhu2:03

      Yes.

   8. AAAli Abdaal2:03

      So this is very cool. It's like, it's like a work of art almost.

   9. VKVee Kativhu2:06

      I feel like a proud mother.

   10. AAAli Abdaal2:08

       It's so pretty.

   11. VKVee Kativhu2:09

       Honestly, I feel like this is my baby. And the insides, the colors, it's me.

   12. AAAli Abdaal2:14

       Yeah.

   13. VKVee Kativhu2:14

       It's yellow, bright. It's energy. It's sun. It's, ah. Yeah.

   14. AAAli Abdaal2:18

       What, what, what was the story of getting, of getting the book deal?

   15. VKVee Kativhu2:20

       Oh my gosh. People ask me this all the time, and I don't know if this is a regular story or if this is not a regular story, but I just got an email. I got an email from my editor, Mireille, who is incredible, and she was having a bad day.

   16. AAAli Abdaal2:34

       Mm.

   17. VKVee Kativhu2:34

       She was having a really [laughs] bad day or something like that, and she went on the internet, and she stumbled across my videos. And she went into, like, a six-hour video watching nonstop, and she just got to know me in that time. And she was like, the moment she was done, she had to email and say, "Your, your life and your story and your advice is, it needs to be a book." And she emailed that day, I think, and then I replied the next day [laughs] and this journey began.

   18. AAAli Abdaal2:58

       And, uh, wow. When, so when, when was that, and how was that journey from, from email to now when the book is in your hand?

   19. VKVee Kativhu3:04

       So quite ironically, I don't know if it's ironic, but, um, I started writing the book the same day I began my degree at Harvard. So they happened at the same time. So I guess the email came two weeks before, three weeks before. So you gotta do negotiations, the back and forth, all that stuff, and then you begin. So yeah.

   20. AAAli Abdaal3:21

       And what's that, what's that process been like for you of writing-

   21. VKVee Kativhu3:24

       Gosh

   22. AAAli Abdaal3:24

       ... writing the book while doing a-

   23. VKVee Kativhu3:26

       Ah

   24. AAAli Abdaal3:26

       ... while doing a degree from Harvard? [laughs] Like, that's a-

   25. VKVee Kativhu3:28

       I've-

   26. AAAli Abdaal3:28

       ... that's a pretty big deal.

   27. VKVee Kativhu3:28

       [laughs] I've done some crazy stuff in my time, but that was the craziest because it's just two big commitments, two things that you should be giving 100% of your entire time to, and I'm doing them simultaneously. So that was quite odd but also exciting because I think I work best when there's lots going on rather than one thing, and I've never just done my degrees. I've never just done one thing. It's always juggling, and I like that. So the process was good. Um, I had to take time off YouTube at some point for, like, two months-

   28. AAAli Abdaal3:58

       Mm

   29. VKVee Kativhu3:58

       ... because it got quite a lot, but, um, we're here now, and I have a degree and a book now, so [laughs] pretty happy.

   30. AAAli Abdaal4:05

       Yeah. Congratulations.
3. 5:00 – 7:51

   Your Early Life

   1. AAAli Abdaal5:00

      a lot of the stuff you talk in the book because-

   2. VKVee Kativhu5:01

      Mm-hmm

   3. AAAli Abdaal5:01

      ... really, like, the whole thing, live your life with passion and purpose.

   4. VKVee Kativhu5:05

      Oh.

   5. AAAli Abdaal5:06

      Um, and you've got some interesting thoughts around how to find your purpose and goal-

   6. VKVee Kativhu5:10

      Mm-hmm

   7. AAAli Abdaal5:10

      ... setting and all that kinda stuff.

   8. VKVee Kativhu5:11

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AAAli Abdaal5:12

      Before we get into that, I wonder if we can talk a little bit about your, your, your background-

   10. VKVee Kativhu5:16

       Yeah

   11. AAAli Abdaal5:16

       ... kind of your childhood, all that kinda stuff 'cause it's, it's quite an inspiring story. So for, for people who maybe aren't familiar with your story, I wonder-

   12. VKVee Kativhu5:22

       Mm

   13. AAAli Abdaal5:22

       ... if you can give us, like, an overview of kind of-

   14. VKVee Kativhu5:24

       [sighs]

   15. AAAli Abdaal5:25

       ... where have you come from and how did-

   16. VKVee Kativhu5:26

       Yes

   17. AAAli Abdaal5:26

       ... how did we g- how did we get here? [laughs]

   18. VKVee Kativhu5:28

       So I was born and raised in Zimbabwe, a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful country on the southern tip of the African continent, and I was raised there up until the age of about seven. And in that time frame, my father had passed away when I was about two. My mom moved to England when I was two, and then my sister instantly got separated from me because obviously you're gonna stay with family members while your mom's away, and they can't afford to have both of you. So we were split up. So I think- Being born and then straight away your family's gone, that was really, really hard. And I was raised as an orphan. I had orphan status in Zimbabwe, and that was really difficult because people treat you different. Like you feel the constant sympathy and all that kind of stuff. And then we got reunited when I was about seven or eight, and then I moved to England to be with my mom, and that story of getting to the airport is always a funny but sad one for me because we literally got to the airport, my sister and I, after being reunited, and we, we, we saw two women, my mom and her best friend. And I was like, "I literally don't know which one she is." That is how much I just didn't know her. And my sister ran to one person, I ran to the other, and of course I got the wrong one. And, um, yeah, but since that day my mom and I have been like best friends. To make up for lost time I think we bonded so quickly and now we're inseparable, you know?

   19. AAAli Abdaal6:43

       Right.

   20. VKVee Kativhu6:43

       And then, yeah, got to the UK, went to school, um, wanted to go to Oxford. That was a big deal for me because I thought, "Life is for the living, and I want nothing but the best that it has to offer." So went to Oxford. Well, when I wanted to go to Oxford my teacher said no. [laughs]

   21. AAAli Abdaal7:00

       Hmm.

   22. VKVee Kativhu7:00

       She was like, "No, it's not for people like us," and that was not gonna work with me because my mom, since, since we'd been reunited she just, she just wanted me to have everything. Like she wanted me to go after life because it'd been so hard to begin. So when I said, "I wanna go to uni," her instinct was, "Well, we're gonna, we're gonna choose whichever one, the best one. Which one's the best one? Google it."

   23. AAAli Abdaal7:20

       [laughs]

   24. VKVee Kativhu7:20

       Oxford came up. That was literally how we chose.

   25. AAAli Abdaal7:23

       Okay.

   26. VKVee Kativhu7:23

       I typed in Google, "What's the best, where is the best place to study history?" Oxford came up. I said, "That's where we're going." So when she said no, it didn't make sense to me. I said, "But why?" You know? And, um, I didn't end up going sadly, 'cause I just didn't have my school's support. And then the next year, the foundation year came around. I applied for the foundation year, got into Oxford, started YouTube, and then the rest is history. [laughs]

   27. AAAli Abdaal7:47

       What is the foundation year?

   28. VKVee Kativhu7:49

       Ah, the foundation year. So

4. 7:51 – 25:50

   Studying at Oxford University & Diversity

   1. VKVee Kativhu7:51

      it was this pilot scheme and course at Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford, which was like a bridging course to kind of help students from backgrounds like mine who would've wanted to go to a place like Oxford, but because of circumstances out of their control they just couldn't. Or they maybe didn't meet the grades or whatever the reason could be, this is like a foundation year, like, um, a bridging course or a fast track to get you up to speed with what you might have missed out on in that year before you do your undergraduate.

   2. AAAli Abdaal8:17

      Hmm.

   3. VKVee Kativhu8:18

      So you get onto the foundation year. You get to Oxford. You're there, but you're not yet there. So I had to like wake up from my room at Oxford to go downstairs to interview for Oxford-

   4. AAAli Abdaal8:30

      Nice. [laughs]

   5. VKVee Kativhu8:30

      ... by my professors who've been teaching me for the past few months, and they're like, "Hi, how are you?" I'm like, "We, we've, we've done this before. Like come on."

   6. AAAli Abdaal8:40

      [laughs]

   7. VKVee Kativhu8:40

      And then you find out when, whether you've got in or not by going downstairs again to open your letter in the principal's office instead of it being sent home.

   8. AAAli Abdaal8:48

      Hmm.

   9. VKVee Kativhu8:49

      So that is like such an odd way, but yeah, it was just a course that they took on 10 students from the UK, and I was one of them luckily, and I was really happy about that. But only seven of us got to continue, so it wasn't guaranteed that you would-

   10. AAAli Abdaal9:04

       Hmm

   11. VKVee Kativhu9:05

       ... go on to do the degree at Oxford. So yeah, that was really hard.

   12. AAAli Abdaal9:08

       Yeah.

   13. VKVee Kativhu9:08

       Really hard.

   14. AAAli Abdaal9:09

       And, and, and why did you go for history?

   15. VKVee Kativhu9:11

       That's a good question. I just, I love understanding the world and my place in it, and for me to do that I have to go back in time to understand how things work. I can't just take things at face value. Like I need to know, but why? Like where did this begin? You can't tell me this is like the philosophy of education.

   16. AAAli Abdaal9:28

       Hmm.

   17. VKVee Kativhu9:28

       I need to know what is philosophy? Where does it begin? Like who are the first philosophers, or help me understand just the core of something and the start of it. Things like anything, like racism, politics, whatever, like we didn't just end up here. Something started or something happened first, and I love investigating. So-

   18. AAAli Abdaal9:46

       Hmm

   19. VKVee Kativhu9:46

       ... that's why history for me.

   20. AAAli Abdaal9:48

       Okay.

   21. VKVee Kativhu9:48

       Hmm.

   22. AAAli Abdaal9:49

       So that's interesting. So like a lot of people I know-

   23. VKVee Kativhu9:51

       Yeah

   24. AAAli Abdaal9:51

       ... including like, well, me and all of the people I know from immigra- immigrant backgrounds-

   25. VKVee Kativhu9:55

       Yeah

   26. AAAli Abdaal9:55

       ... would not study something like history-

   27. VKVee Kativhu9:57

       Yeah

   28. AAAli Abdaal9:57

       ... because the mindset would be, what the hell are you gonna do with a history degree, become a history teacher? I don't know.

   29. VKVee Kativhu10:00

       Yeah.

   30. AAAli Abdaal10:01

       And, and so for a lot of people that I know it's like medicine, engineering, law are like the only professions. [laughs]
5. 25:50 – 39:20

   Empowered by Vee Events

   1. VKVee Kativhu25:50

      by Vee where every year we're having these annual events that are free, having students like myself or Jade or, I mean, we're gonna get you on there one day.

   2. AAAli Abdaal25:58

      Yeah.

   3. VKVee Kativhu25:58

      People like Jack, Ali, coming on to explain their experience, how they write their personal statements, how... Things that you just can't put a price on this stuff.

   4. AAAli Abdaal26:04

      Mm.

   5. VKVee Kativhu26:04

      You know what I mean? That can be as helpful as what your counterparts... I mean, I don't know 'cause I've never been to Harrow or Eton, but what they could be getting there, like, we're trying to bridge the gap as much as we can. So use all of these free resources around you, 'cause they're there for a reason, and they are helpful, I must say so [laughs] myself.

   6. AAAli Abdaal26:22

      Yeah. [laughs] Empowered by Vee. Um-

   7. VKVee Kativhu26:24

      [laughs]

   8. AAAli Abdaal26:26

      Just, just as an aside-

   9. VKVee Kativhu26:27

      Mm

   10. AAAli Abdaal26:27

       ... um, how, how do you feel about the fact that it's called Empowered by Vee? Like-

   11. VKVee Kativhu26:31

       Yeah

   12. AAAli Abdaal26:31

       ... your name, your name being part of this?

   13. VKVee Kativhu26:32

       Yeah.

   14. AAAli Abdaal26:32

       Like-

   15. VKVee Kativhu26:33

       Yeah. Okay.

   16. AAAli Abdaal26:33

       [laughs]

   17. VKVee Kativhu26:33

       So basically-

   18. AAAli Abdaal26:35

       Yeah

   19. VKVee Kativhu26:35

       ... that is, that is a story within itself.

   20. AAAli Abdaal26:37

       Yeah.

   21. VKVee Kativhu26:37

       But I was with my friends, and I was like, "Guys, this event is coming up." And at the time, we were just calling it the event, the event, the event, the event. I was like, "No, we need a name."

   22. AAAli Abdaal26:45

       Yeah.

   23. VKVee Kativhu26:45

       Like, "This is getting ridiculous. It needs a name." And they're like, "What do you wanna do?" Like, "What is, what's going on?" I was like, "I wanna empower people." And they're like, "Just call it Empowered." And we all loved Empowered.

   24. AAAli Abdaal26:54

       Yeah.

   25. VKVee Kativhu26:54

       And we were like, "Yeah, that works. Great." Then I was just like, "It doesn't, it doesn't feel complete. There's something missing. There's something missing."

   26. AAAli Abdaal27:01

       [laughs]

   27. VKVee Kativhu27:01

       And I, I suggested, I was like, "What if we put by Vee but it's silent, by Vee?"

   28. AAAli Abdaal27:06

       Yeah.

   29. VKVee Kativhu27:07

       At the time, it was silent.

   30. AAAli Abdaal27:08

       Oh.
6. 39:20 – 48:06

   The Life Of A YouTuber

   1. AAAli Abdaal39:20

      It, it, it, it, it seems like you're genuinely kind of mission and purpose driven.

   2. VKVee Kativhu39:24

      [laughs] Thank you.

   3. AAAli Abdaal39:25

      And like a really... Okay, so the reason I'm, I'm, I'm so surprised by this is because-

   4. VKVee Kativhu39:32

      Yeah

   5. AAAli Abdaal39:32

      ... like, you know, there's, there's a quote which apparently is often attributed to JP Morgan, which is that, um, you know, "Someone always has two reasons for doing something"-

   6. VKVee Kativhu39:42

      Mm

   7. AAAli Abdaal39:42

      ... um, the good reason and the real reason.

   8. VKVee Kativhu39:44

      Mm.

   9. AAAli Abdaal39:44

      And if I think about my motivations for starting a YouTube channel-

   10. VKVee Kativhu39:47

       Yeah

   11. AAAli Abdaal39:47

       ... I, I c- I could say that, you know, there's, you know, I wanna help people, I like teaching people study tips, and the comments are nice, and all that kind of stuff.

   12. VKVee Kativhu39:54

       Yeah.

   13. AAAli Abdaal39:54

       But really if I dig deep, I, I love the attention. I love the admiration, the st- the social status, the prestige-

   14. VKVee Kativhu40:00

       Yeah

   15. AAAli Abdaal40:00

       ... the money associated with it, that kind of stuff.

   16. VKVee Kativhu40:02

       Oh.

   17. AAAli Abdaal40:02

       Um, and if I have to be honest with myself, then that's probably a significant part of why I do the YouTube thing and the internet thing-

   18. VKVee Kativhu40:08

       Mm

   19. AAAli Abdaal40:08

       ... on top of like the whole-

   20. VKVee Kativhu40:09

       Yeah

   21. AAAli Abdaal40:10

       ... help- helping people aspect of it. Um-

   22. VKVee Kativhu40:12

       That's interesting

   23. AAAli Abdaal40:12

       ... I'm just kinda curious, like i- i- 'cause, 'cause for you it really sounds like the helping people is like the majority of it. [laughs]

   24. VKVee Kativhu40:18

       Yes. Yeah.

   25. AAAli Abdaal40:19

       What's, what's going on there? [laughs]

   26. VKVee Kativhu40:20

       [laughs] Yeah. Well, the thing is, before I began YouTube-

   27. AAAli Abdaal40:24

       Mm

   28. VKVee Kativhu40:24

       ... I didn't know anybody in YouTube. Like, all my friends or people that I've known is through doing it. And like they reach out, or I reach out, and then now you cross paths, and then you become friends, right? But I didn't know anybody, and I didn't really consume YouTube. I still don't right now. People always ask me, "Who's your favorite YouTuber? Who do you watch?" I don't really use the app- [laughs]

   29. AAAli Abdaal40:45

       Yeah. Yeah

   30. VKVee Kativhu40:45

       ... for my own personal... I just upload and I go, right? So when I started it, you have to imagine like no one, no one I knew was doing it. And I would, I would share the link on Facebook for my friends and family to like share to their, to their nieces and nephews, whatever. I was like, "Oh, if we can get 100 people, we did something." Like, it never, it just never crossed my mind that YouTube could be a job. That blew my... Even when my management approached me, I said, "What?" Like, I just, I don't know why I didn't know, 'cause I guess no one talks about it on the internet really. Like, now it's more open with people like you as well sharing the stats and the figures and stuff. But I just didn't know you could actually have a living on there and sustain yourself. So I was working in McDonald's before I went to uni. So from McDonald's I was not thinking [laughs] YouTube.
7. 48:06 – 51:11

   How To Reframe Your Thinking

   1. VKVee Kativhu48:06

      telling you, this woman-

   2. AAAli Abdaal48:07

      Yeah

   3. VKVee Kativhu48:07

      ... she's got some classic things that she says. And growing up I would just be like, "Oh, but Mom, like, all my friends have Barbie dolls and they're gonna get them for Christmas and I really want one." "We couldn't afford a new Barbie doll. No." Hey, she'd take me to the car boot sale, and we would go through the secondhand stuff and then find a Barbie doll. And I'm like, "But Mom, like, it's got a scratch and it's missing, like, an ear." She's like, "No, no, no, no, no, you're looking at it wrong. Reframe it. This Barbie doll is so special. She's got a story to tell. Your friend's Barbie doll, like, is brand new. Great, I'm happy for them, but look at yours. Like, can you imagine what happened for her to lose her ear? You can imagine anything you want, and your book has got a tea stain. What was the person reading it thinking? She would make everything so much fun."

   4. AAAli Abdaal48:47

      Yeah.

   5. VKVee Kativhu48:47

      "And nothing was ever beside about this." It was like, "No, embrace it. Like, we found your Barbie doll special in the back of the boot at the corner. Like, you were meant for her. You were supposed to save her." Like, did it... That kind of stuff, that was her all the time.

   6. AAAli Abdaal49:01

      That-

   7. VKVee Kativhu49:02

      Mm.

   8. AAAli Abdaal49:02

      I'm... It's, it's weird, it's so weird. I'm, like, tearing up as you're describing that-

   9. VKVee Kativhu49:05

      Oh

   10. AAAli Abdaal49:05

       ... 'cause I'm, I'm like-

   11. VKVee Kativhu49:06

       No

   12. AAAli Abdaal49:06

       ... I'm, like, feeling- [laughs]

   13. VKVee Kativhu49:07

       Stop. [laughs]

   14. AAAli Abdaal49:07

       ... feelings of passion. Um...

   15. VKVee Kativhu49:09

       Oh, stop.

   16. AAAli Abdaal49:10

       Is that right? Yeah.

   17. VKVee Kativhu49:11

       That was deep. That actually got quite hard.

   18. AAAli Abdaal49:12

       Nice. [laughs]

   19. VKVee Kativhu49:14

       [laughs] But yeah.

   20. AAAli Abdaal49:14

       It's just the... Yeah, it's such an unusual amount of, like, just positivity that you just don't encounter in real life [laughs] normally.

   21. VKVee Kativhu49:21

       Yeah, no, I get this all the time.

   22. AAAli Abdaal49:22

       Yeah.

   23. VKVee Kativhu49:23

       Even my friends that I'm friends with now, they're literally like, "Like, I really thought it was 'cause you're on Instagram."

   24. AAAli Abdaal49:28

       Mm.

   25. VKVee Kativhu49:28

       Like, "Your story needs to be jazzy." Like, "You wake up like this?" [laughs]

   26. AAAli Abdaal49:32

       Yeah. [laughs]

   27. VKVee Kativhu49:32

       "9:00 AM? And you're, like, singing and dancing, and you're..." And that to me, it's so normal.

   28. AAAli Abdaal49:37

       Yeah.

   29. VKVee Kativhu49:37

       Like, I don't even see as I am a certain way. I just think this is, this is it. You have one life. I'm not gonna waste it being sad.

   30. AAAli Abdaal49:46

       Love it. Um, I have so many questions about-
8. 51:11 – 1:06:30

   How To Find Your Purpose

   1. AAAli Abdaal51:11

      purpose.

   2. VKVee Kativhu51:11

      Yes.

   3. AAAli Abdaal51:12

      Um, so okay. Let's say I don't, I don't really know what my, what my purpose is.

   4. VKVee Kativhu51:16

      Yeah.

   5. AAAli Abdaal51:16

      How, how do I, how do I go about/how does a, a viewer or listener go about answering this question of, like, what the hell is my purpose?

   6. VKVee Kativhu51:23

      Yeah, that's a question I get all of the time. And I always say, "What is, what is that thing, that thing that just you can't stay away from it? You keep thinking about it." And obviously, this can go wrong. I do understand that. [laughs] Like, you could be thinking some bad things, and I could be encouraging the wrong thing, but let's just begin off of the base that it's a good thing, and it's a regular thing, right? What is that thing that you can't get off your mind? A debate you hear on the bus, and you literally... Strangers, you have to turn around and chime in, or any time you have a chance to do free things, you're researching it.

   7. AAAli Abdaal51:55

      Mm.

   8. VKVee Kativhu51:55

      Like, you just can't stay away from it. What is that thing? That thing has something in you that is driving you. Like, you wanna be a part of it. You wanna... What, what would you wanna do for free if you didn't have to think about bills and all this other stuff? What would you happily dedicate your time to-

   9. AAAli Abdaal52:10

      Mm

   10. VKVee Kativhu52:11

       ... for free? And that thing, that thing is embedded in your purpose. That, that's a good starting point. So then you figure out what that thing is, and then you follow that track. For me, helping people.

   11. AAAli Abdaal52:21

       Mm.

   12. VKVee Kativhu52:21

       Okay, you wanna help people. If you... What do you always do? What do you always do? Oh, in class you get in trouble for teaching people. You always find yourself speaking up, da, da, da. Oh, maybe it's education. I don't know. And then you start to, like, go down this little rabbit hole-

   13. AAAli Abdaal52:33

       Mm

   14. VKVee Kativhu52:33

       ... until you figure out what that specific niche within it is. And also, when you're finding your purpose, it's not like you have to make a lifelong decision like you're married to and-

   15. AAAli Abdaal52:43

       Yeah

   16. VKVee Kativhu52:43

       ... that's the end of all. No, you could have a purpose that you wanna pursue for the next three years, and that's that. And then you're done with it, and you wanna move on to something else. That's okay. Finding your purpose is not, it's not final. It's like what Michelle Obama says. You're becoming. You're always constantly becoming, and things might change. Who knows what Vee in 10 years will be doing? I hope she'll be doing this, but I might fall out of love with it, or I might feel like I've given all I can give, and there's nothing else. Things are not gonna ch- I don't know. Who knows? But it could change. But for now, figure out what you can't stay away from, what is always on your mind, what keeps you awake at night, what world problem bothers you to the core. And that is where YouTube began, right? I was like, "Man, the lack of diversity is, oh, so annoying. I'm gonna start a channel."

   17. AAAli Abdaal53:28

       Mm.

   18. VKVee Kativhu53:29

       So it could be, "Oh, I hate the way that I keep seeing dogs being treated when, when they're stray dogs or when they're abandoned. Oh, I'm gonna go to the vet," and then you're talking to the vet, and then you want a work experience. Then you figure out this new thing you wanna do. You just kinda, like, you need to track it. Trace that thing. Don't, like, ignore the thing that's living in your heart. You know what I mean?

   19. AAAli Abdaal53:49

       Let's say you're halfway through your JP Morgan internship.

   20. VKVee Kativhu53:52

       Mm.

   21. AAAli Abdaal53:53

       And the bros are like, "Hey, Vee, how do I find my purpose?" Like, for... B- because, like-

   22. VKVee Kativhu53:59

       Mm

   23. AAAli Abdaal53:59

       ... the, the, the way you're describing the purpose stuff is very, like, mission driven. Like, you know, what's, what's the-

   24. VKVee Kativhu54:03

       Yeah

   25. AAAli Abdaal54:03

       ... what's the problem in the world you wanna, you wanna solve?

   26. VKVee Kativhu54:05

       Mm-hmm.

   27. AAAli Abdaal54:06

       And to be honest, when I think of most of my friends, and me as well, like, we don't really have that-

   28. VKVee Kativhu54:10

       Yeah

   29. AAAli Abdaal54:10

       ... "Oh my God, I just feel so passionate-

   30. VKVee Kativhu54:11

       That, that would be-
9. 1:06:30 – 1:29:19

   How To Find and Define Your Goals

   1. AAAli Abdaal1:06:30

      goals.

   2. VKVee Kativhu1:06:30

      Okay.

   3. AAAli Abdaal1:06:31

      'Cause I've been... I don't know. I'm qu- I'm quite anti-goals.

   4. VKVee Kativhu1:06:36

      Okay.

   5. AAAli Abdaal1:06:36

      So my, so my theory on goals is that a goal is, like, fine if it's like... I- i- it sort of gives you a direction.

   6. VKVee Kativhu1:06:43

      Mm.

   7. AAAli Abdaal1:06:43

      Um, but then I find it helpful to just, like, forget about the goal.

   8. VKVee Kativhu1:06:47

      Mm.

   9. AAAli Abdaal1:06:48

      Because- The way I think of it is, like, it's, it's not really about the destination. It's fa- far more about the journey.

   10. VKVee Kativhu1:06:54

       Yeah.

   11. AAAli Abdaal1:06:54

       As Maya Sara says, "It's the climb."

   12. VKVee Kativhu1:06:55

       [laughs]

   13. AAAli Abdaal1:06:55

       And, you know, what are the things that I can do, uh, kind of day to day that will help make my life more fulfilling or more, more, more meaningful or more impactful-

   14. VKVee Kativhu1:07:06

       Mm

   15. AAAli Abdaal1:07:06

       ... without really thinking about, like, the destination that I'm trying to get to?

   16. VKVee Kativhu1:07:11

       Interesting.

   17. AAAli Abdaal1:07:11

       Yeah. What's the-

   18. VKVee Kativhu1:07:12

       Interesting. I might have to disagree-

   19. AAAli Abdaal1:07:13

       W-

   20. VKVee Kativhu1:07:13

       ... because-

   21. AAAli Abdaal1:07:14

       Okay, please. I would love to hear it

   22. VKVee Kativhu1:07:15

       ... because, um, so you're trying to make your life better, trying to, like, put systems in place that can help make it easier, like what you're saying, like day-to-day.

   23. AAAli Abdaal1:07:23

       Yeah.

   24. VKVee Kativhu1:07:23

       Right? But also, the, the thing with goals is they don't lock you into anything, right? And w- I speak about that in my book when I'm talking about the goal-setting systems that I use. They don't have to lock you into anything.

   25. AAAli Abdaal1:07:36

       Mm.

   26. VKVee Kativhu1:07:36

       Like, you ... If your goals lock you into something, you're doing it wrong.

   27. AAAli Abdaal1:07:39

       Mm.

   28. VKVee Kativhu1:07:39

       They need to be adjustable. They need to be able to change depending on the context. You can't be like, "The goal is to be a cheerleader at Harvard," and then a pandemic hits. What do you do now? We just give up on the Harvard dream?

   29. AAAli Abdaal1:07:49

       Mm.

   30. VKVee Kativhu1:07:49

       No, you have to adjust to your circumstances and your situation, financial, pandemic, whatever it is. So I think that your goals, they shouldn't be locking you in. They should be something that you can adapt. And doing them regularly helps as well. So being like, "Oh, I have to do this one thing, and that's what my life is driven towards"-
10. 1:29:19 – 1:39:30

    How To Overcome Fear Of Failure

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:29:19

       fear of failure-

    2. VKVee Kativhu1:29:20

       Ah

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:29:20

       ... and fear of rejection.

    4. VKVee Kativhu1:29:21

       Ah.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:29:22

       And you have a whole, you have a whole thing about this.

    6. VKVee Kativhu1:29:23

       Oh.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:29:24

       What, what's your, what's your thing about rejection? [laughs]

    8. VKVee Kativhu1:29:26

       Oh, you know how they have the love languages?

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:29:28

       Yeah. [laughs]

    10. VKVee Kativhu1:29:28

        And there's five. They need to add one for me about rejection and failure. I'm like-

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:29:32

        That's your love language. [laughs]

    12. VKVee Kativhu1:29:33

        Oh, this is me. Like, talk to me.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:29:35

        Yeah.

    14. VKVee Kativhu1:29:35

        Listen, failure is another chance to try again, and I really mean this when I say it. Failure is like my fuel. Like, I, I, I thrive from it because it's like, okay, now I've just gained insight into something. And I have this pebble, uh, analogy that I heard, and it was so good, and I just kept it. It's like being on a pebble, and it's full of, like, a pebble beach of, you know, pebbles. I don't know what else to say. Pebbles. And someone tells you there is 100 million. That's obviously gonna change your life. A $100 million check under one of these pebbles. Go. The first thing you're gonna do is turn over the pebble you're standing next to, and oh, it's not there. You're not gonna go home. No, you're not. There's 100 million on this beach that's yours. You're gonna keep turning these pebbles over. And as you're turning each of these pebbles over, guess what you're gaining? Information about where that money isn't. Okay, and you're gonna say, "Okay, that section over there, I've checked it out. It's not over there." And you're just gonna now put a little method in place. I've looked over here. I've looked over here. Until you find it, [laughs] you're not gonna give up.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:30:35

        Yeah.

    16. VKVee Kativhu1:30:35

        So yeah, that's just, that's just what I think. Um, yeah.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:30:41

        Like, the ch- the, the chapter's about this idea that rejection is redirection.

    18. VKVee Kativhu1:30:44

        Mm-hmm.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:30:45

        What do you, what do you mean by that?

    20. VKVee Kativhu1:30:47

        So rejection's redirection. So when you get rejected from something-

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:30:50

        Mm

    22. VKVee Kativhu1:30:50

        ... you're gonna, you're gonna still live. Like, that is the reality. You're not gonna die from this, okay?

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:30:56

        Yeah.

    24. VKVee Kativhu1:30:56

        When you're rejected from a university, when you're rejected from your job, you're still gonna be here. So now that we know you're gonna be here, th- there needs to be a next step, and the next step is redirection. Like, you're not gonna s- stand still. You're not. That door has closed It is, it's inevitable. Another one has to open. Now, what that other one is gonna be, that is gonna be how we, based on how we approach it, how we frame it. We're gonna enter this as a new opportunity. So it's a, it's a redirection. It's like something greater is coming. And why do I say it's greater? Because you've just, you've just gone through an experience that's made you stronger. It's given you information. It's, you're a different person now. Like, when your next moment comes, it's redirection. Like, there is not nothing else to say apart from you were gonna go this way, and you can't now, so you're going that way, and you're gonna make the best of it because that's what happens. You gotta live in the moment of what you're at-

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:31:50

        Yeah

    26. VKVee Kativhu1:31:50

        ... and what you're doing. And if you get rejected from it, live in the moment of that, and give that a full chance. So that's what I mean. Failure is another chance to try again, is you turning that pebble over. The money's not there. Now you know where else to try. Now you know where it's not. And it's as important to know what you don't wanna do or where you shouldn't be as it is to know what you want to do. And I look at it like this, right? Your ultimate happiness is, like, here.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:32:16

        Hmm.

    28. VKVee Kativhu1:32:17

        Whatever that means. It's here. And every time that something doesn't quite go the right way or you get rejected or fail at whatever, you're just, like, ticking off. You're just, like, literally getting closer and closer and closer and closer to finding yourself, to finding what you like, knowing your boundaries, knowing what excites you, all this stuff. You're just getting closer and closer. And for me, that's why I celebrate leaving that job. 'Cause now I know what I don't wanna do. It's definitely that one. Now let's, let's go again. [laughs]

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:32:46

        Yeah, that's great. [laughs] That's great stuff.

    30. VKVee Kativhu1:32:47

        [laughs]
11. 1:39:30 – 1:52:10

    Why Don't People Talk About Money?

    1. VKVee Kativhu1:39:30

       to talking about money. Mm. And people find- find that weird. Yeah. I'm always a bit, like, baffled as to why- why it's so weird. Like, why it's, like, a taboo thing to talk about money. Okay, so here's my thing about money, right? Mm. When- when everything on YouTube started happening, like, I was just so open with my friends and family just because it was like, "Oh, my God, this is crazy. We've just gone from McDonald's money, right?" I was making, like, £4.95 an hour or something like this. And then now you're like, "Oh, my God, there's a few hundred pounds in my account." And that's shocking. Like, we were all like- Yeah ... "What?" So I was just open to talk about money with my friends and family from the beginning because we just could not believe our eyes. Like, what? For one minute, they're asking you for... Giving you how much for one minute? That would've been how many shifts at work for us? Yeah. So it was just blowing our minds. Then I got onto the internet, and I don't know, it was just weird. Like, you couldn't really talk about it 'cause it felt, like, rude. Like, it felt- it felt like... And I just didn't get it 'cause obviously I always knew. I know what my mom makes, what my sister makes, my friends. Like, it's not a secret. If you work at the KFC with me, I know what we're on. Like, whereas in this world, it is such... It's so... So in the book, I was so... I really wanted to talk about it, but I also knew, like, there were still these, like, social limitations. Like, I couldn't be like, "So today, this is how much I made-" Yeah. [laughs] "... in this hour." So I was like, okay, I can put some distance between it. Like, I can say, "When YouTube began, in the first two years- Yeah ... this is how it was going." And that's... 'Cause obviously, that's not where we're at now. Yeah. But I can say, "Okay, this is how it was going, and this is, these are the numbers," which I still think are crazy. Mm. Right? I went from something like, there was a, a, a you- just a brand that I was working with, and when I, before I had management, they were like, "Yeah, Vee, like, we've stretched our budgets, and, like, we can give you 200 for, like, a minute's work. And, you know, you know, that's..." And I was like, "Oh, my God, I'm so grateful. Thank you so much." Yeah. And I was so over the moon. Yeah. Then I had management. Yeah. And, like, three months later, the same brand, the money was in the thousands. And I was like- Mm ... I haven't grown that much. Yeah. [laughs] Nothing has really changed here. And that made me angry. Yeah. 'Cause it was like, so once again- Mm ... a lack of knowledge and knowing means that you're just gonna get ripped off all the time. Yeah. When, like, why is me having management means now you can pay- Yeah. [laughs] ... times 10? [laughs] Yeah. Like, how does that make any sense? Mm. So in the book, I discuss, like, AdSense fees, things like that in the first year of YouTube 'cause I feel like, okay, it's fair enough. It's far enough away. It's far enough away, yeah. Yeah, it's far enough away, but also, it's still mind-boggling. Yeah. Like, even when I- when my friends... 'Cause obviously, I mean, now with friends and family and everybody, it's just like, okay, they know. They get it. So now they- they still have those prices in their mind as well, 'cause it's... I just don't talk to them about it anymore now 'cause it's... I don't know. There's just no point anymore. Yeah. We get it. They know. We're amazed by it. It's done, whatever. So when they read that, they're still like, "Whoa." So I was like, okay, this is still something good to share- Yeah ... 'cause it still shows you how drastic- Yeah ... the jump is. And I just couldn't believe it. Like, I'm a university student making thousands- Yeah ... from being on the internet. So what, uh, what were the figures from years one and two, if you don't mind sharing? So years one and two, I think there was a video that I did on YouTube, and it got, like, £2,000 or something in that month because I think it just did really well. Mm. And then the brand managements were getting management deals for, like, 4,000 here, 5,000 here, and I was like- The first year? Bloody hell. That's pretty good. [laughs] No, seriously- [laughs] ... because in that first year- Yeah ... is when I was blowing up. Yeah. Right? So they managed me when I had, like, I think they came to me when I had 15,000 subscribers- Okay ... or something. Yeah. And then within four months, we were like, we hit 20, 30, 40, 50K. So in that time, I guess, when they were pitching, they were like, "She's gaining 10,000 subscribers every month- Oh, yeah ... or every week. You better do it now while it..." You know what I mean? Got it. So they were getting amazing deals. Mm. And I was like What in the w- I literally went from my McDonald's paycheck to this

    2. AAAli Abdaal1:43:35

       Mm.

    3. VKVee Kativhu1:43:36

       There was no, there was no gradual to it whatsoever

    4. AAAli Abdaal1:43:40

       Yeah

    5. VKVee Kativhu1:43:40

       And that blew my mind.

    6. AAAli Abdaal1:43:41

       What's that like? How does that change, change your perspective, if at all?

    7. VKVee Kativhu1:43:47

       The good thing is, like I keep saying-

    8. AAAli Abdaal1:43:49

       Mm-hmm

    9. VKVee Kativhu1:43:49

       ... the friends and family at home, nothing has really changed in their world.

    10. AAAli Abdaal1:43:53

        Okay.

    11. VKVee Kativhu1:43:53

        So it's still the same. So we still have those conversations, and I'll still do budgeting talks with them.

    12. AAAli Abdaal1:43:58

        Okay.

    13. VKVee Kativhu1:43:58

        And like, I can't be like, "Well, it's only 100."

    14. AAAli Abdaal1:44:01

        Yeah.

    15. VKVee Kativhu1:44:01

        It's like, "No, it's not only 100. That was how many hours work for your..." I still need to be in-

    16. AAAli Abdaal1:44:06

        Yeah

    17. VKVee Kativhu1:44:06

        ... tune with that. But also, I can't be on the internet like, "Guys, I gotta get pot noodle today," 'cause I don't have to.

    18. AAAli Abdaal1:44:12

        Yeah.

    19. VKVee Kativhu1:44:12

        Let's be realistic here. Like, I hate when people pretend when you know, you know you're in a better situation. Like, you-

    20. AAAli Abdaal1:44:18

        [laughs]

    21. VKVee Kativhu1:44:18

        ... you don't need to talk about pot noodle right now.

    22. AAAli Abdaal1:44:21

        Yeah.

    23. VKVee Kativhu1:44:21

        You know if you really wanted to get a takeaway, you could order it, and that wouldn't do anything for you.

    24. AAAli Abdaal1:44:24

        Yeah.

    25. VKVee Kativhu1:44:25

        So I... It was tricky, but my audience are amazing.

    26. AAAli Abdaal1:44:31

        Mm.

    27. VKVee Kativhu1:44:31

        Like, whenever, especially Disney, right? Like, I work with Disney a lot, which, I mean, we know Disney's got deep pockets, right? And, and my, my audience know that, and whenever I post like a Disney ad-

    28. AAAli Abdaal1:44:42

        Mm

    29. VKVee Kativhu1:44:43

        ... they do the best.

    30. AAAli Abdaal1:44:44

        Oh, okay.
12. 1:52:10 – 2:10:33

    Rapid Fire Questions

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:52:10

       I have a few kind of rapid fire questions to end with.

    2. VKVee Kativhu1:52:11

       Yes.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:52:11

       If that's all right.

    4. VKVee Kativhu1:52:12

       Oh, that's nerve-wracking.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:52:14

       Um, I mean, the que- the, the, the questions are rapid, the answers don't have to be.

    6. VKVee Kativhu1:52:17

       [laughs]

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:52:17

       But, yeah. Um, so.

    8. VKVee Kativhu1:52:19

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:52:19

       What, what advice would you give to your younger self?

    10. VKVee Kativhu1:52:22

        Ooh.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:52:23

        Other than-

    12. VKVee Kativhu1:52:24

        That's the question I ask everybody

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:52:25

        ... read the book. Yeah.

    14. VKVee Kativhu1:52:26

        What advice did I give to my younger self? I always say this, but I don't know if it's so true, 'cause would everything that happened had happened? I don't know. But to my younger self, I'd have told myself to start being more audacious sooner.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:52:42

        Oh, what do you mean?

    16. VKVee Kativhu1:52:43

        Like, at right now, there's no goal that's out of my reach.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:52:47

        Mm.

    18. VKVee Kativhu1:52:47

        There's nothing that I would say, "Maybe don't, maybe don't think about that." Like, oh, I really wanna do PhD, like, don't think Stanford. No, that's not gonna work. Or you wanna do a speech, don't think the UN. Like, n- there's nothing that is too big. And I feel like there was a time when I was younger, even though my mom was supportive, like I keep saying, she said, "Lead and I'll follow." So if I didn't choose something that was really, really high, then it wasn't gonna happen.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:53:10

        Yeah.

    20. VKVee Kativhu1:53:11

        Right? So I wish that I had started to see myself as I do now a lot younger, especially when I was trying to, like, unlearn all of this, "You're an orphan," stuff. Which doesn't even make sense. Like, number one, I don't know why Zimbabwean culture does that, but if you lose a father, then you are an orphan. But it's like, that doesn't make sense, 'cause you still have a mom.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:53:31

        Mm.

    22. VKVee Kativhu1:53:31

        But it becomes with all that, like, gender inequality stuff.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:53:34

        Yeah.

    24. VKVee Kativhu1:53:34

        They don't view the mom as significant enough that your status changes based on your father. So I wish that I'd unlearned that, what I'd inherited from that orphan, like, that's what you are, and they treat you that way. And being so nervous, and, like, never really, like, speaking up, da, da, da.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:53:51

        Mm.

    26. VKVee Kativhu1:53:51

        Wish I'd unlearned that sooner. But also, you know.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:53:55

        That's life. [laughs]

    28. VKVee Kativhu1:53:56

        Yeah. [laughs]

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:53:56

        Um, who's had the biggest influence on your career, would you say?

    30. VKVee Kativhu1:53:59

        Gosh, I don't know. I guess I would say really, really powerful women, like Oprah Winfrey or Michelle Obama is. You know, people like that I think really inspire me because they've made names for themselves based on themselves.

Episode duration: 2:10:33