How to Not Die Alone - A Dating Expert's Guide

1. 0:00 – 0:58

   Intro

   1. AAAli Abdaal0:00

      Hey, friends, how's it going? Welcome back to Deep Dive. What you're about to hear is an interview that I did with Logan Ury. Logan is a behavioral scientist turned relationships therapist who has written a book called How to Not Die Alone. This is an absolutely fantastic book that I made a video on a few months ago, and that video was called This Book Changed My Love Life, and it's got over a million views to date. Logan is also the Head of Relationship Science at the dating app Hinge, where she leads a team of researchers to help uncover what are the secrets behind finding and maintaining true love. In our conversation, we discuss all things dating and relationships, including the concept of the friend zone. Does it exist? Doesn't it exist? How does one break free of this proverbial friend zone? We talk about how to apply insights from behavioral science to the world of dating, how to optimize your dating profile, and how to think a little bit more like a scientist when it comes to dating. We talk about things like what makes a perfect date, we talk about the concept of the secretary problem, the prom date versus the life partner, and a bunch more exciting stuff. I had an absolute blast doing the conversation. Initially, we had, like, a two-hour slot where we recorded the remote interview, but we had so much stuff to talk about

2. 0:58 – 6:20

   Getting into behavioural science

   1. AAAli Abdaal0:58

      that we chatted for another two hours afterwards as well. So I think this was probably the longest podcast interview that I ever did. Anyway, links to all of Logan's stuff, including her book, How to Not Die Alone, are gonna be in the show notes and the video description. Or if you'd rather not read it, although you should, you can check out my video summary of the book. But anyway, I really hope you enjoy this conversation between me and Logan Ury. So, hey, Logan, welcome to the podcast. Uh, it's, it's great to have you on.

   2. LULogan Ury1:18

      Yay.

   3. AAAli Abdaal1:19

      Um-

   4. LULogan Ury1:19

      Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.

   5. AAAli Abdaal1:21

      Yeah, thanks for being on here. We managed... We, we, we connected because initially I mentioned your book, How to Not Die Alone. It's very good. I mentioned it in my email newsletter, and somehow you clocked that I'd mentioned it, and then you emailed me, which was pretty cool. And now here we are having a bit of a chat.

   6. LULogan Ury1:34

      Oh, that's great. Yes, it was my friend Joe Garvey who gets your newsletter who sent it my way. So thank you to Joe for connecting us, and I've been looking forward to this for a few months now.

   7. AAAli Abdaal1:43

      Amazing. Um, so I'd love to start... Like, I, I have so many questions about dating and relationships and stuff, but I'm very curious about h- about kinda your background. Like, how did you get to the point where you now work at Hinge and you have a book about relationships? Like, what was, what was the story?

   8. LULogan Ury1:56

      Yeah, so I've always been really interested in dating and relationships, as I think many people in general are. I definitely think part of it goes back to my parents getting divorced and one of those seminal moments in childhood and adolescence where you think, "Okay, happily ever after is not something I can take for granted." And I think it planted this seed in my mind where I thought, "This is something I really want, and I have to work for it." So from a young age, from my teens, I really thought, "This is something that I wanna investigate more. It's mysterious to me, and it's not a given." Then I went to Harvard, and I studied psychology, and I had a secondary concentration in women, gender, and sexuality. And so I was able to understand things like gender dynamics. I did a large paper on pornography habits. I really just used it as an excuse to get into whatever topics were interesting to me. And then from there, I went on to work for Google. I had a couple interesting jobs there. I ran the pornography team there. It was called the Porn Pod. [laughs] This was my first job out of college, and it was running the ad campaigns or the online advertising for some porn companies and sex toy companies, which honestly was just, like, a very quirky thing to talk about with my family [laughs] during my first Thanksgiving home. But truly, my, my job at Google got very interesting once I started to run this team called the Irrational Lab. And so are you familiar with the book Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely?

   9. AAAli Abdaal3:31

      Oh. I've heard of it. I've heard a lot of people reference it, but I've, I've, I've never read it. What is... What, what-

   10. LULogan Ury3:35

       Yeah

   11. AAAli Abdaal3:35

       ... is the deal with the book?

   12. LULogan Ury3:36

       It's a-

   13. AAAli Abdaal3:36

       Yeah.

   14. LULogan Ury3:37

       It's a great book worth having on your radar. So behavioral science is this entire field that looks at how people make decisions and why we so often act against our own rational best interests. And so it might be something like, of course, we should all be saving for retirement. We agree on that. But why is it so hard to take a certain percentage of your income and put it towards savings? Or we say we wanna lose weight, but then we don't actually show up and exercise or eat healthier foods. And so there's this gap between who we wanna be, what we wanna do, and what we actually do, and this field investigates that gap. It says, "Why are we acting against our own best interests?" And so I had the opportunity at Google to work with Dan. We ran this team together called the Irrational Lab, where we really thought about the behavior of people who work at Google, the behavior of Google users, the behav- the behavior of Google advertisers, and it was just so interesting to apply this academic field to real-world marketing, culture, other aspects of a company. And so that is an important moment in my development because I later did that with dating and relationships. And so at that moment that I was running the Irrational Lab, I was single. I was using dating apps. I was swiping. And I thought, "Okay, this is something very new. No one has done this before. Nobody has swiped on thousands of people and gone on eight dates a week." And it just felt like this new moment, and I was surrounded by all these smart people at Google, but they were as lost as I was on dating. And so what I have done in the last majority of the last decade is basically take thoughts about dating and relationships, thoughts about behavioral science and how we act against our own best interests, and combine them. And so what I've been doing through one-on-one coaching, through matchmaking, through writing the book, through working at Hinge, is this whole field where I'm saying, actually, relationships are a series of decisions, and you can break them down. And you can make better decisions and get into a great relationship, or you can repeat the same bad decisions and wind up in an unhappy relationship or unhappily single. And so I really try to take this academic, research-backed approach that will help people get out of their own way, overcome their dating blind spots, and get into a relationship.

   15. AAAli Abdaal6:01

       Oh, amazing. Okay, so I, I have so many questions on this, but I, I wonder if... Can we pretend like we're having a one-on-one coaching session? And I, so-

   16. LULogan Ury6:09

       Sure. I would, I would love to do that.

   17. AAAli Abdaal6:11

       Amazing. So what's, what's the sort of person that comes to you for, like, rela- is it like relationship therapy or, like, dating coaching? Like, how, how, how do I decide that, hey,

3. 6:20 – 16:09

   How does dating coaching work?

   1. AAAli Abdaal6:20

      let me book a session with, with Logan Ury?

   2. LULogan Ury6:23

      Yeah. It's a great question. So I have worked with couples. I have one guy I've been working with for years where first he came to me when he was single. I was helping setting him up on dates. I was helping him after those dates. Then he got into a relationship, and now I coach him individually and her individually and the two of them. And they just got married and are having a baby, and I'm seeing them next week. And so I've really gotten to be there for the entirety of their relationship. But most of my clients are people who are single and send me an email that says something like, "I like my life. I like myself. I like my job. I like how I show up to friends and family. I am an engaged person in the world. This one part of my life is not working. I don't know why, and I want to enlist your help to improve it."

   3. AAAli Abdaal7:10

      Ooh, interesting. Okay. So that sounds basically 100% like I was before I discovered your book. Um-

   4. LULogan Ury7:16

      Oh, that's so sweet. [laughs]

   5. AAAli Abdaal7:18

      [laughs] Um, interestingly, so when the, the... This episode is probably gonna come out in a couple of months, but, um, I actually have a girlfriend now, and she was the one who-

   6. LULogan Ury7:28

      Whoa

   7. AAAli Abdaal7:28

      ... recommended the book because-

   8. LULogan Ury7:30

      That's so sweet

   9. AAAli Abdaal7:31

      ... we went on our first date, like, sometime in July, and she said that she's been reading this. And I thought, "Okay, that's an interesting title. I'll, let, let me read it as well."

   10. LULogan Ury7:37

       [laughs]

   11. AAAli Abdaal7:38

       And now we're, like, together, and we're applying a bunch of the principles that you talk about, like, um, kind of-

   12. LULogan Ury7:43

       Wow

   13. AAAli Abdaal7:43

       ... being intentional about, like, reviewing the relationship and asking that, that you've got this questionnaire-

   14. LULogan Ury7:47

       Yeah

   15. AAAli Abdaal7:47

       ... like later on where you, you're asking, asking questions and stuff. It's all really good, but, uh, up until then, I was very much that ex- the exact avatar of that person-

   16. LULogan Ury7:54

       Mm-hmm

   17. AAAli Abdaal7:54

       ... that you describe.

   18. LULogan Ury7:55

       Mm-hmm.

   19. AAAli Abdaal7:55

       Broadly happy with my life. Life is good. Relatively successful by kind of traditional metrics, but I can't seem to get into a relationship. Um, and I al- I kind of felt that I'd been on a bunch of dates, but the thing I'd always be asking my friends afterwards is like, "Huh, how, how do you really know if you like someone? I don't, I don't know. I don't know if, like... I w- I don't really feel a spark." I was like, "Eh," all this kind of stuff.

   20. LULogan Ury8:17

       Yeah.

   21. AAAli Abdaal8:18

       So how, how, how do, how do we go about, like, solving this problem? What sort, what sort of questions would you be asking?

   22. LULogan Ury8:24

       Ooh, I love that. Well, thank you for sharing that the book has been helpful. It's very meaningful to me. Usually, when I work with clients, the first session is really understanding who they are in context.

   23. AAAli Abdaal8:34

       Mm-hmm.

   24. LULogan Ury8:34

       And so sometimes people just wanna come in and within the first minute tell me everything about dating, but there's this coaching exercise called Wheel of Life where I understand, you know, what's going on in your career, what's going on in your family, friends, mental health, physical health. And that's helpful to me because occasionally I have clients where a lot of stuff is going wrong, and I really try to help them figure out those other things. Or I say, "I think you should invest in a therapist first and then come to talk to me." And so just understanding that dating is part of an integrated system.

   25. AAAli Abdaal9:07

       Hmm.

   26. LULogan Ury9:07

       But let's say everything else really is working except for dating. Then we dig in. We try to understand. So one thing I would ask you early on is, what is your long-term goal for dating right now?

   27. AAAli Abdaal9:19

       Ooh, okay. So I think, um, I wanna get married and have kids and get a dog and stuff. And when you're young, it's, like, easy enough to just not be in a relationship because life is good and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I kinda think that as, like, middle age approaches, um, in a way, a relationship is a hedge against loneliness to an extent. I'm not sure if that's, like, actually true, but I think it would be cool to have a family and have kids and stuff. And all of the studies, well, a lot of the studies show that, um, being in a relationship and stuff contributes to meaning and happiness and fulfillment, et cetera. So it, it feels like even though for me it is not, like, an urgent thing right now that I absolutely am desperate to find someone because I'm broadly happy with myself and my life, I know that I probably should start looking given that this is a thing that I want further down the line.

   28. LULogan Ury10:05

       Yeah. That, that answer really resonates with me because sometimes people hear the title of my book, How To Not Die Alone, and they feel like it's a critique on being single.

   29. AAAli Abdaal10:14

       Mm-hmm.

   30. LULogan Ury10:14

       And if you are single and it makes you happy and long term you wanna be single, that's totally fine. But I find that many people do wanna find someone, and the majority of people around the world do end up getting married. So this is obviously something that our culture's still investing in. And yeah, the research shows that our health, happiness, and overall life satisfaction hinges on the quality of our relationships. So it's a great idea to hedge against [laughs] future loneliness through, through dating and finding someone. And I think having gone through the pandemic, people who were single and spending a lot of solo time, I heard from many of them, and they said things like, "I wish I had invested in this before."
4. 16:09 – 24:05

   The three dating tendencies

   1. LULogan Ury16:09

      tendencies, and that was based on the people I had been seeing in dating coaching or kind of friends and other people that I was meeting. And so that whole framework, which I know you talk about a lot in your video, is based on unrealistic expectations. And so I saw the most of the maximizer.

   2. AAAli Abdaal16:26

      Mm.

   3. LULogan Ury16:27

      And the maximizer is the person who has unrealistic expectations of their partner, and I have a feeling based on you and your background that you're a maximizer.

   4. AAAli Abdaal16:35

      Yeah, very much so. When you, well, when-

   5. LULogan Ury16:36

      Yes

   6. AAAli Abdaal16:36

      ... I read that bit where it was ma-

   7. LULogan Ury16:38

      [laughs]

   8. AAAli Abdaal16:38

      ... describing maximizer, I was like, damn, okay. [laughs] I feel really-

   9. LULogan Ury16:41

      Yes

   10. AAAli Abdaal16:41

       ... called out right now.

   11. LULogan Ury16:42

       Yes, totally. And so if you're listening right now and you're not familiar with this, a maximizer is the person who says, you know, "Life is one big research project, and I can research my way to the right answer, and there is a perfect pen, and there is a perfect microphone, and there's a perfect Zoom setup. And if I just research my way to the right answer, I will win." And sometimes that works. There is, you know, the best microphone. But with dating, there's no way to date everyone. There's no reviews. Humans are what we call experiential goods. You have to live them to know how they impact you. And what some person might like in a wine or a movie is different than what you might like, and the same thing is true with dating. And so you really have to get out there, date different people, and make a decision for yourself. There's no researching your way to the right person. Eventually, you have to choose someone great, commit, and build a relationship.

   12. AAAli Abdaal17:35

       So on that note, um- Uh, the... I wa- I was j- earlier today I was listening to an episode of the Huberman Lab co- podcast where he speaks to Dr. David Buss, I think is his name, who's a big kind of researcher in this field, and talking about, yes, there is an extent to which, uh, kind of mate value and dating preferences is subjective, but actually there's a lot of stuff that across cultures is kind of true and across the culture that we live in where, uh, you can actually sort of rate someone in terms of their mate value and get a somewhat consistent result for an individual person across a bunch of people that you, that, that, that you look at. So they would argue it's not quite as simple as, you know, there's someone out there for everyone, and just as, like, there are zillions of different combinations of wine, there, you know, some people like different sorts of people. Like, to, to, to what extent does that side of it come into the equation here, like in terms of the stuff guys look for in girls and, and, and vice versa?

   13. LULogan Ury18:30

       Yeah, so there's a ton of interesting research in the academic field of relationship science that studies things like attraction, or do opposites attract, or if thousands of people rated the attractiveness of certain people, would they all find a consensus? And generally, the answer is yes. So I can make my point a little bit more nuanced, which is assuming that you're dating people who are a reasonable match for you, people with whom you have interesting conversations, people with whom you're attracted, people who you could see a long-term relationship, a lot of maximizers come to me when they're already dating in a pretty small pool of people, all of whom would make great partners. But instead of taking a step back and saying, "Of the last 10 people I went out with, there's actually a bunch of them in there that probably could work long term, and it's about me choosing, investing, and making a relationship," they think, "The fact that I don't feel 100% sure about anyone means that I need to keep looking." And so I think it's really about what's the premise. Well, first of all, I don't think there's any 100% sure about anything, especially with something as meaningful as getting to choose one person for the rest of your life, which is what many of us are going for, right? Even with a job, it's like millennials, Gen Z, we think, "I'll stay in this job for 18 months." There's, with dating, it's just this huge decision that we are making with so much cultural baggage. And so of course we want to make the right one, but also it's, it's very hard to be sure. So really with maximizers, I want to help them switch their mindset from, "If I keep looking, I'll find the perfect person," to, "Relationships are things that you build, not things that you discover." And so life is much more about having high standards, finding somebody or something that meets that standard, and then feeling good about the decision versus the maximizer mindset of, "I'm obsessed with making the right decision", and I think that that's a recipe for unhappiness.

   14. AAAli Abdaal20:27

       Well, I was quite familiar with this line of reasoning 'cause I had... I was a big fan of, uh, Alain de Botton's stuff around, like, romanticism and-

   15. LULogan Ury20:33

       Yeah

   16. AAAli Abdaal20:33

       ... how the soulmate-

   17. LULogan Ury20:34

       Yeah, totally

   18. AAAli Abdaal20:34

       ... stuff is a bit of a myth. And actually, um, one, one, one of his quotes that I really like is that, "Compatibility is an achievement of marriage; it should not be its prerequisite." And so, uh, I, I kind of came across this stuff a few years ago, and I kind of like... Maybe I was bullshitting myself, but I genuinely thought to myself that, "Hey, I, I, I recognize intellectually that a bunch of the, um, the value of a relationship comes from the amount of effort you invest into it rather than preexisting compatibility and finding someone who ticks all of the proverbial boxes." And so I'd be going on these dates, and I'd be like, "Ugh, I'm not really feeling it, but I don't know, maybe I'm just being too much of a romantic. Maybe the whole feeling it is a bit of a myth, like ugh, I'm..."

   19. LULogan Ury21:14

       Mm-hmm.

   20. AAAli Abdaal21:14

       So-

   21. LULogan Ury21:15

       Mm-hmm

   22. AAAli Abdaal21:15

       ... and, and, and this was the thing I would, I would, I would always ask my friends and never get any useful responses to. It's like, "Well, what is the bar? Like, how do you know you like someone enough-

   23. LULogan Ury21:22

       Mm, mm-hmm

   24. AAAli Abdaal21:22

       ... to warrant investing into that relationship? And like, how, like, what are the questions I should be asking in my head about, like..." You know, I'd, I'd be thinking, "Do I... Is this the sort of person that I would enjoy spending 16 hours in a row with if we're stuck in a elevator together?" It's like maybe that's a question. Is it the pe- so someone I'd want to go on a holiday with for an extended period of time? I mean, uh, yeah. What, uh, what, what are your, what are your thoughts on this? [laughs]

   25. LULogan Ury21:46

       No, this is, this is great, and I think the more personal we can make it, actually the more universal and easy to understand it is. And so why don't you tell me-

   26. AAAli Abdaal21:55

       Mm

   27. LULogan Ury21:56

       ... what are some of the questions that you were asking that you felt weren't very fruitful, and then with the woman that you're dating now-

   28. AAAli Abdaal22:03

       Yep

   29. LULogan Ury22:03

       ... what shifted so that you felt that you could see the potential and you could invest in her? And so what was that shift like for you?

   30. AAAli Abdaal22:13

       I think before the questions I was asking were things like, "Do I feel a spark," as it were, um, which was always a bit, like, vague 'cause, like, how do you define the spark? And it's like, uh, you know, it's, it's kind of like that question of asking, like, how, how do I know I'm in love? And people are like, "Well, uh, you, you kind of just do."
5. 24:05 – 29:00

   The problem of focusing on the spark & the secretary problem

   1. LULogan Ury24:05

      of messages that say, "I used to focus on the spark. I used to focus on instant chemistry and a feeling of I've known you for my whole life. And if that wasn't present, I thought, 'Okay, next.' It's on to the date the following day," things like that. But instead, people are shifting away from I need to feel the spark to what can we build together or am I curious about you.

   2. AAAli Abdaal24:32

      So one of the things that really resonated with me in the book was the idea of, um, the secretary problem and the whole explore versus exploit dilemma. And I'd- I'd- I'd come across this before, but the way you framed it in terms of age was the thing that I'd like, I'd never heard before. I was like, damn, because I'd always sort of thought, like, how d- how- how- how do I know what N is? How do I know how many people I would actually end up dating in my life, therefore the whole thing is flawed. I wonder, can... For the people who haven't heard about it, I wonder if you could give us an intro to the secretary problem and how w- how that relates to this issue that some of us have of being- being a maximizer.

   3. LULogan Ury25:04

      A- absolutely. I would love to share that, and I'm glad to hear that it resonated with you, and I also wanna give a shout-out to the book Algorithms To Live By, which is how I was first exposed to this idea. So the secretary problem is a line of mathematical inquiry, so it's sort of a math puzzle, that asks, imagine if you were hiring, let's call it an admin, and there were 100 possible candidates. So you know how many candidates you have. And here's what's hard about it. You have to interview them one at a time, and after each one, you have to say yes or no. I wanna hire you, or I don't. And so the question becomes: how many people should you interview before you choose someone? If you choose too early on, maybe there's tons of great candidates out there, and you haven't been exposed to them. But if you choose too late, what if all the good candidates have passed you by? And so the mathematically correct answer here is that you interview the first third of candidates, so the first 33. And from there you say, "Who is the single best candidate?" That person now becomes your benchmark. The next time that you find a candidate who you like as much or more than that person, you hire them, because the 33% gave you a chance of what's... a chance to see what's out there. Now you know, and then you snag the next person who's on that level. So are you following me with that?

   4. AAAli Abdaal26:24

      Yeah. [laughs]

   5. LULogan Ury26:25

      Great. All right. So how do we apply that to dating? Well, we don't know the total number of people you're going to date, and it's really gonna vary. But let's say that we think about age, and let's just choose that, let's say you in particular, you're going to be dating in earnest from ages 18 to 40. What do you do, um, with that number? Well, you could say, well, what's 33% of that? And so mathematically we know it would be at 26.1 years of age. That's when you've dated a third of the people who you could possibly date. And so you look at those first years of dating, and you say, "Who was that benchmark person? Who did I date who I liked as much or more than the other people?" And now in the future when you meet someone who you like similar to your benchmark, that's the person you invest in. And when I say this to people, sometimes they say, "Oh, no, my ex was so great. Should I contact her right now?" And I say, "No, no, no, no. It's more of a concept." It's the idea that you likely have already dated somebody who would be great. Most of us are past that 26.1 years of age mark. And the idea is it's not about keep searching and searching and- and not knowing. It's about understanding that you've probably already dated somebody who would be great, and the next time you meet someone where you have similar feelings, that's a chance to invest and build a relationship.

   6. AAAli Abdaal27:48

      Yes. I just lo- I just love this so much because, like, this was the exact answer to the question that I've been ha- the problem I've been having for the last few years, which is that I felt that, ugh, maybe I just haven't dated enough people. Like, I didn't date that much when I was at university. But-

   7. LULogan Ury28:01

      Mm-hmm

   8. AAAli Abdaal28:01

      ... and but I, you know, had a bunch of female friends, all that, all that kind of stuff. And I always thought that, okay, maybe when I'm 30 or something, that's when I will have dated enough to get that-

   9. LULogan Ury28:09

      Mm-hmm

   10. AAAli Abdaal28:09

       ... kind of sample size to then kinda know. But then when I saw 26, I was like, oh, my God. [laughs] Okay, I'm already 27. Okay, let's, you know, really start taking this thing seriously.

   11. LULogan Ury28:18

       [laughs]

   12. AAAli Abdaal28:19

       Um.

   13. LULogan Ury28:20

       You've done it. Yeah.

   14. AAAli Abdaal28:21

       I've, I've mentioned this to a few friends. Um, a bunch, there's, um, a bunch of my friends are, like, not into... They're, they're, they're very much hesitators, and so they haven't really done the whole dating thing. Um, do you think that getting to... Like, is having female friends a sufficient, like, sample for this sort of thing, or do you think that it really does need to be actually going on dates, like first dates through an app like Hinge or whatever, um, or even in real life, [laughs] God forbid, um, to- to- to g- to gather the appropriate data points for this f- for this problem?

   15. LULogan Ury28:56

       Great. So for people who aren't familiar with the framework, there's this idea

6. 29:00 – 31:18

   Is having friends enough?

   1. LULogan Ury29:00

      of the hesitators as one of my three tendencies, and basically these are people who aren't putting themselves out there, they're not going on dates, and their framework is, "I'll date when I'm ready," which might mean losing weight, getting a more impressive job, having better stories to tell, maybe a global pandemic is over. But there's always the dot dot dot, "I'll date when..." And my whole philosophy is, no, you need to be dating. There's two main reasons why. One is you only get better at dating by dating, and two is you only figure out who you wanna be with by actually being with different people and seeing what side of you they bring out. And so I understand the crux of your question, which is, can't you get some of those dating skills by having female friends, or can't you get some of the who do I wanna be with by having female friends? I would say it will help you. It will help you develop empathy. It will help you understand what kind of conversations go well or how to be a better listener. I think it's part of a well-rounded life. I do think that there's something unique about being in the romantic realm. I get so many questions from men and women who say, "I'm always friend-zoned." So there might be... And these are very gendered terms, but, you know, there might be the woman who says like, "I'm super sporty. I grew up with brothers. I always played sports. I'm one of the guys. But then when I, you know, go in for the kiss, they're like, 'No, I see you as a sister or a friend.'" And same thing, there's the guy with tons of girlfriends who is the person you call after a breakup, but not the person [laughs] that you sleep with to get over the breakup, whatever it is. And so often people wanna get out of the friend zone. And so what I would say is, in general, having friends is extremely important. It helps you be a well-rounded person. It makes you happier. It's a way to meet new people. But there is something different about engaging with people on romantic and sexual terms that you do need to experience specifically through doing that. And so what is it like on a date to present yourself as not just one of many people who that person could be friends with, but as the one person who they might choose to invest in? And what does it mean to experience a hard conversation with the one person who you're in a romantic relationship with? And so for those people, I would say yes, and you should also be dating.

   2. AAAli Abdaal31:15

      Got it. Um, so

7. 31:18 – 38:46

   Date like a scientist + objections to dating apps

   1. AAAli Abdaal31:18

      okay. So at this point in our dating journey, we've had, had the consultation with you. We're like, "All right. Cool. I'm gonna be dating. I should probably..." And at, at that point, probably think- be thinking, "Okay. Cool. I sh- I guess, you know, sh- I guess I should make one of these accounts on one of these dating apps potentially. Oh, I've gotta figure out my photos. Ugh, but now I have to choose photos of me that look good. Oh, but, uh, you know, I lost a few gains during the pandemic. Maybe I should go to the gym for a few mon-..." Like-

   2. LULogan Ury31:40

      [laughs]

   3. AAAli Abdaal31:41

      What, what are the, what are the action steps that someone in the- in that position would take?

   4. LULogan Ury31:46

      Oh, I love this, yes. Okay, so you know, you know, you and I have met for our first session. I've heard why people think you're single. I've heard about your dating history, and now I'm gonna give you some experiments to run. And so my whole thing is date like a scientist. So date like a scientist is have some hypotheses, test them, bring the data back to me, and we will try to understand what that means. And so maybe at the end of our first session, we said, "We think you're a maximizer. We think that you have unrealistic expectations of partners, and we think that the next time that you go on a second date and you don't wanna go on a third, we're gonna push you to go on the third because it's in that third that you will deepen the relationship and get to know this person versus rejecting them for something silly." If your issue is that you were a hesitator and you weren't putting yourself out there, your next step would be getting a dating app and trying to go on more dates. And so what's the point of a dating app profile? The point is to create a great first impression. And so your dating app profile is almost like you walking into a bar and giving off a particular vibe. So if you're wearing a Game of Thrones T-shirt, people are gonna engage with you on that. If you're wearing a tutu or a basketball jersey, people are gonna engage with you in different ways. And so how do you want people to see you and then respond to you? And so I can get into the weeds, but really, your dating app profile should tell a story. It should have variety. It should say, "This is me when I'm with my family and friends, and this is what dating me would look like. This is a full body shot of me so you can see what I look like in the world. Here's a clear picture of my face without filters or sunglasses so you know what I look like. Here's me doing an activity that I love, and I want you to ask me questions about it." So you're really painting a picture. You wanna have variety. You wanna have clear photos that show us who you are. We don't wanna be playing Where's Wally and wondering which one you are in a different picture. And really, you're putting yourself out there so that somebody can see who you are, know what you look like, and most importantly, you're creating a hook that they can grab onto and then engage you in a conversation.

   5. AAAli Abdaal34:01

      Okay, so dating apps. Um, one of my core beliefs is that everyone who is single that I know should be on dating apps, and only about half of them are. And there's a few common objections that I get when I try and talk people into making accounts on dating apps. Um, can I just throw a few of them, a few of them at you, and I would love to hear your-

   6. LULogan Ury34:17

      Absolutely.

   7. AAAli Abdaal34:18

      Okay.

   8. LULogan Ury34:18

      Let's do it.

   9. AAAli Abdaal34:18

      Um, dating apps are just for hookups. What's going on there? [laughs]

   10. LULogan Ury34:24

       I work at Hinge. Hinge is really about getting people off of the app and onto relationships. I know that's sort of a tagline, but in the two years that I've been there, I've really found that to be true. We're obsessed with helping people go out on great dates. There are different dating apps that serve different purposes, but if you're someone who's really looking for a relationship, A, so are a lot of people on certain apps like Hinge, and B, you should feel free to be upfront from the beginning about what you're looking for. So we just ran this fascinating experiment at Hinge where we showed 12,000 different users four profiles. Some of the profiles said they were looking for something generic, you know, kind, compassionate, adventurous. Some of the profiles said, "I am looking for a long-term relationship." What we found is that if the person in the experiment was also looking for a long-term relationship, they were much more likely, 17% more likely, to send the person who was looking for a relationship a message. Because they were like, "Great, you've taken the guesswork out of this. I want something. You want something. I'll message you." If the person looking at the profile did not want a relationship, they were 10% less likely to send that person a message, and that actually saves you time on both ends. You get more messages from the kind of people you wanna hear from and fewer messages from the kind of person you don't. And so a lot of this is just being bold, being courageous, being upfront from the beginning, whether it's on your profile or the first and second date, about what you in particular want-

   11. AAAli Abdaal35:55

       Hmm

   12. LULogan Ury35:55

       ... to get out of this experience.

   13. AAAli Abdaal35:56

       Nice. Love it. So objection number two is dating apps focus too much on the superficials. And as a subpoint to that, it's mostly guys that I speak to about this. Uh, guys are systematically, um, uh, shall we say ... shafted [laughs] in the dating market because, um, you know, there are so many more guys on this app than there are girls, and I've tried it a couple of times, and I never get any matches. And then I look at one of my female friends, and they're getting freaking 100 matches a day. Like, ugh, as a guy, dating apps are not for me. [laughs]

   14. LULogan Ury36:26

       There are issues where dating apps can reduce you to this two-dimensional image that people are evaluating. And without a lot of context, they might immediately go for looks. One thing that Hinge just released is these voice prompts, and this is a chance for people to be silly. They could do an impression of their favorite cartoon character. They could play you a silly song that they've been writing. They could, you know, do a celebrity impression, whatever that is. And it's a chance to bring more authenticity to the profile. And so I'd say in general, I think the future of what we're gonna be seeing with dating apps is wanting more information, whether it's more video, more voice, more interactivity. So it's not just like, hey, here's a piece of paper with bio data on it that your mom showed you, and you have to say yes or no, I wanna go on a date with this person. But really it will feel more like, oh, I've seen you on social media. I get a sense for how you move through the world. I get a sense for what you look like, what your voice sounds like. I have an immediate response to who you are. And so I would say for those people, what can they do on their end to bring their more full self to the profile? And then also in their own behavior on the app, how can they try to give more people a chance? Because if we focus too much on height or age, we're actually filtering out a lot of people who could make great potential partners.

   15. AAAli Abdaal37:47

       On the note of what you put on a dating profile, um, I... So on, on my Hinge profile about two years ago, one of the prompts was, um, uh, I think, you know, the, "I like a, a perfect date night," or something like that. And I said something like, uh, "Singing a duet, uh, of, uh, I See the Light from Tangled with you." Um-

   16. LULogan Ury38:13

       [laughs] That's so cute

   17. AAAli Abdaal38:15

       ... and I showed this to a few friends and, a, a few, a few guy friends who by their admission had had a lot of success on apps like Tinder and Hinge, and they said, "Bro, you can't be saying that. That signals that you are not very masculine. It signals you are," insert homophobic slur here. "That is not the kind of thing that women want in a man, so suppress that aspect of your personality on the dating app and let it maybe come out preferably never, but, like, if you have to, do it, like, further down the line when they've gotten to know you already." What's, what's your

8. 38:46 – 41:37

   Dating apps and masculinity

   1. AAAli Abdaal38:46

      take on the suppressing the less masculine characteristics of myself on my, on my dating app profile?

   2. LULogan Ury38:52

      I totally disagree with your friends.

   3. AAAli Abdaal38:53

      Ooh, interesting.

   4. LULogan Ury38:55

      First of all, one exercise that people can do is think about the three messages that they wanna get across on their profile. So let's say, and I'm... You know, we're just getting to know each other, but let's say I wanted-- you want people to know that you're curious about the world, that you are intellectual and like having deep conversations, and that you also have a silly side. So I might say to you, okay, if those are your... And actually, how, how close am I, and why don't you tell me what your three things might have been?

   5. AAAli Abdaal39:27

      I guess I, I never really thought of it as like what are the three things I'm trying to get across. Um-

   6. LULogan Ury39:31

      Yeah.

   7. AAAli Abdaal39:32

      Yeah.

   8. LULogan Ury39:32

      Let's just as an exercise, maybe you can tell me, you know, before you met the person-

   9. AAAli Abdaal39:36

      Yeah

   10. LULogan Ury39:36

       ... that you're seeing now, if you were like, "When somebody looks at my profile and they give it 20 to 30 seconds-

   11. AAAli Abdaal39:42

       Hmm

   12. LULogan Ury39:42

       ... in an ideal world, they'd come away with three- these three ideas about me," and then we would reverse engineer a profile that shows those things.

   13. AAAli Abdaal39:50

       Ooh, that's interesting. Okay. So, so im- immediately the thought in my head is, um, that there is a difference between the way I'd wanna come across authentically to people that I'm interested in being friends with and the way I'd wanna come across authentically... I would wanna come across to people that I'm interested in being romantic partners with. And may- and I don't know, maybe I've just drunk the Kool-Aid of this like toxic masculinity stuff for too long, but I would be very hesitant about wanting to signal that I really enjoy singing Disney songs, even though that's true. Uh, I... It, it's, it's like stuff like that that I would be... I, I, I would hesitate in saying that this is something that I, I wanna put forward because maybe it doesn't create the, create the right kind of image. Do, does that make sense?

   14. LULogan Ury40:32

       I understand what you're saying. So I think what you're saying is if it was just who am I in the world in a platonic setting-

   15. AAAli Abdaal40:39

       Yeah

   16. LULogan Ury40:39

       ... you might put the Disney thing in. In a romantic setting, you might not. But before we go into the how to get it across-

   17. AAAli Abdaal40:44

       Yeah

   18. LULogan Ury40:44

       ... just, and I know this is not the easiest exercise, but just like for the romantic context-

   19. AAAli Abdaal40:49

       Yeah

   20. LULogan Ury40:49

       ... three things you'd want them to know about, and this could be something like family's super important to me.

   21. AAAli Abdaal40:53

       Yeah.

   22. LULogan Ury40:54

       It could be, you know, you have a love for a certain football team.

   23. AAAli Abdaal40:57

       Mm-hmm.

   24. LULogan Ury40:57

       Like, just what are three things where you're like, I want to give off this message?

   25. AAAli Abdaal41:01

       Okay. So that's a good question. Let's think about this. So one of them would be something like I am quite... uh, how do I phrase it? I'm, I'm, I'm quite keen on my own stuff, and I would like the sort of relationship where we're both like... we- we're both doing our own stuff, we have our own projects, and we come together to, like, build each other up, but where one party is not, like, reliant on the other party for their happiness, uh, or words to that effect. And at, at one point I had in my Hinge prompt thing, I think the, the prompt was, uh, the ideal relationship looks like... dot, dot, dot-

   26. LULogan Ury41:36

       Mm-hmm

   27. AAAli Abdaal41:36

       ... or something

9. 41:37 – 47:00

   Dating app prompts

   1. AAAli Abdaal41:37

      like that. And-

   2. LULogan Ury41:37

      It's a good prompt

   3. AAAli Abdaal41:38

      ... and, and my answer was where we spend 90% of our time doing our own thing and 10% of our time doing stuff together, and that was very, very polarizing. I showed that to, like... All, all my female friends were like, "Whoa, you sound like a sociopath. What the hell is wrong with you?"

   4. LULogan Ury41:51

      [laughs]

   5. AAAli Abdaal41:52

      But I was like, "Hey, this is... You know, if someone wants to sign up to be in a relationship with me, this is probably something they should probably know." Whereby... And also 10%, that's like 2.4 hours a day. That's quite a lot of time. Do, do people in relationships-

   6. LULogan Ury42:03

      [laughs]

   7. AAAli Abdaal42:03

      ... spend more time together than that? And people were like, "No, but it just makes you sound weird if you boil it down to a mathematical ratio."

   8. LULogan Ury42:08

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AAAli Abdaal42:08

      So that's one of them. Um, I think another one would be- I would probably wanna signal some level of social status/success/prestige, whether that's the Cambridge University on the thing, whether it's the doctor on the thing, whether it's... At one point, I even had me holding up my million subscribers YouTube plaque as, like, one of the images, which, again-

   10. LULogan Ury42:29

       [laughs]

   11. AAAli Abdaal42:30

       ... was a bit polarized. Some friends were like, "Ugh, that's a bit weird. Why would you signal that?" And other friends were like, "Oh, if I saw that, I'd be like, 'Oh my God, this person's interesting. They've got a million subscribers on YouTube. That's unusual.'" So I'd, I'd, I'd think I'd wanna signal social status in that kind of sense. Um, and I would wanna signal something like, yeah, sort of a playful, a playful side. Um, maybe not Disney, maybe something else along those lines. Maybe me having a big smile, uh, with hanging out with friends or playing board games or, like, being obsessed with Harry Potter or, you know, that, that side of things. Um, potentially as a fourth option, like, the music stuff, 'cause I'm, I'm big into singing and piano and guitar and stuff, and I just love that shit. So I don't know. I, I think I would wanna signal some of those, some of those things.

   12. LULogan Ury43:14

       That was great, and thank you for being honest. I feel like a lot of people wouldn't have said that second one but would feel it. People who make a lot of money might wanna signal that they make a lot of money.

   13. AAAli Abdaal43:23

       Mm.

   14. LULogan Ury43:23

       And you'd have a nice lifestyle if you were with me. But I feel like people aren't always honest about that, so I appreciate that you said, like, social status is something you're proud of and you'd want that person to know. So those three things all, summarize them as the first one is you're looking for a relationship with a lot of independence where you both bring a lot to the table, but you have separate and fulfilling lives, and then together you also have a fulfilling life, but it's not codependent. The second one is you've worked hard, you've been successful, and you feel like you bring that to the table. And then the third one is you also have a playful side which comes out maybe through Harry Potter or playing games or just spending time with family and friends or music. Great. So we would start with those three things, and then we would say, "How can we use your photos and your prompts and maybe your voice prompts on Hinge to get that across?" And so for the first picture, I would probably just say a really high-quality headshot of you, and maybe it's something that you have from your professional life with that camera that does, uh, you know, the blurry background. And even that is kind of ex- ex- you know, uh, subtly suggesting to us, like, you're sort of an important person.

   15. AAAli Abdaal44:29

       Hmm.

   16. LULogan Ury44:30

       Then in one of your prompt responses, you can talk about, you know, started as a medical doctor, transitioned to being a YouTuber and a podcast, and your favorite way to spend time is thinking about ideas and talking to interesting people, right? You could have a, a something like that. But then you could have a hook in there, like, what's the last great book you've read, or what's the last skill that you've developed? And so you are already signaling what matters to you, but creating a conversation opener where the person can say, "I really wanna give you this, uh, this book recommendation," or, "I really wanna engage with you about this idea or this podcast or this philosophy." Then for the status one, I think you could have, um... I think the million subscribers, one thing that would worry me is are you going to be attracting the type of person that really focuses on that?

   17. AAAli Abdaal45:18

       Hmm.

   18. LULogan Ury45:18

       But I think that you can use, um, conversations and first dates to filter that out. Basically, you don't wanna have people that are just social climbers. And then the silliness one, I think that's super important because people are gonna say, "Well, with those first two, how do I know that this person doesn't take themselves too seriously?" Which is a common thing that people want. And so you could have a video of you juggling poorly and all the balls fall down, and it's just like-

   19. AAAli Abdaal45:42

       Yeah.

   20. LULogan Ury45:43

       "I like to... Excuse me. I like to learn new things, but I'm not very good at this." Or a video of you singing or something like that. And so that's a long-winded way of saying I actually think the Disney karaoke one is a really good idea because with the balance of the full profile, I am professional, I am successful, I have over a million YouTube subscribers, it is totally fine to be like, and also I have this side of myself that likes the movie Tangled and will sing with you.

   21. AAAli Abdaal46:10

       Hmm.

   22. LULogan Ury46:10

       And so I think out of context, maybe somebody will say, "Oh, women like someone who's masculine and decisive and all this stuff," but that's not just one part of you. You're this whole person, and so I love that one. I think it's surprising. I think it's specific. I think it opens a conversation to say, "I won't sing that with you, but I will sing a Frozen song with you."

   23. AAAli Abdaal46:31

       Hmm.

   24. LULogan Ury46:31

       And so I think it's much more about understanding how you wanna be portrayed versus trying to fit into a cultural context in which Disney could be seen as being a beta. Some of these ideas I just don't think are helpful.

   25. AAAli Abdaal46:44

       Ooh. Oh, that's very interesting. Okay. So, um, what are the th- the, the bro... Okay. There are some kind of somewhat universally attractive factors that girls look for in guys and, and vice versa. And, and one thing I've always been cur-

10. 47:00 – 57:02

    Generalisations about attractiveness

    1. AAAli Abdaal47:00

       always been curious about is to what extent do, should me as a guy use the, my knowledge of what the generalization and the averages are to shape my own dating profile, plus or minus my own personality? Uh, do you, do you get what I mean?

    2. LULogan Ury47:20

       Give me an example of something besides the Disney one that you may or may not include based on this so-called strategy.

    3. AAAli Abdaal47:26

       Hmm. Um, so the Disney one, uh, so like, uh, at, at one point my Hinge thingy, well, one of the prompts was, uh, I am really good at, or I'm the best in the world at.

    4. LULogan Ury47:37

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AAAli Abdaal47:37

       And I said Harry Potter trivia. So again-

    6. LULogan Ury47:39

       Mm-hmm

    7. AAAli Abdaal47:40

       ... um, at one point I had a photo of me in my bedroom, but the feedback that some of my male friends said about that is that those, like, uh, get pastel-colored posters you've got on the wall with the blue and white baby blue bedsheets maybe doesn't quite signal that you're a, a man who's got their life together, and it kind of looks more like a teenager's room rather than a successful man's room. Um, things like that where it's like I could choose to put that in there, but it maybe wouldn't signal the, I don't know, masculineness, the confidence, the successfulness, the w- what I'm a grown-up person who has got, got their life together kind of vibes.

    8. LULogan Ury48:18

       I'll start by saying I do think that it depends on what you're looking for and what the other person is looking for.

    9. AAAli Abdaal48:25

       Mm-hmm.

    10. LULogan Ury48:25

        So I have a close guy friend who went on a date with this woman. They had known each other for several years. They were friends, but they were exploring being something more. And they went on this great date, and she went back to his apartment afterwards and she said, "Your towels have holes in them. Your bathroom is dirty. The sink is dirty. There's garbage overflowing from the trash can. You're not signaling to me that you're ready for a serious relationship, and I can't waste my time helping somebody grow up, and I don't wanna continue seeing you romantically." And that story stuck in my mind because he felt like he was ready for a long-term relationship, but some of the actions about his life and how he was, how he was, you know, keeping his space didn't portray that.

    11. AAAli Abdaal49:05

        Yeah.

    12. LULogan Ury49:05

        And so, yes, people are taking in lots of signals. I think that if you are unemployed or underemployed, people are gonna judge you based on that. I think that hygiene and the way you keep your space, yes, people judge you on that. And so I'm not saying that that stuff doesn't matter, but in reading between the lines in what you're saying, I feel like you're investing a little too much time in the how will this be seen, and how does this one picture in a vacuum portray me-

    13. AAAli Abdaal49:34

        Mm

    14. LULogan Ury49:34

        ... and not enough time saying, "I can paint a picture of myself on the profile, then very quickly I'm gonna get into a conversation. I'm gonna ask good questions. I'm gonna be interesting. I'm going to be attractive. I'm going to work hard to make that person feel seen, and I believe in my own ability to create a relationship." And so I, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I feel like some of what you're saying is a little bit of like what I see on Reddit from people who are-

    15. AAAli Abdaal50:00

        Yeah

    16. LULogan Ury50:00

        ... trying to hyper optimize specific things, and I think trying to say like, "What do women want, and how do I become that?" And, you know, "This isn't masculine because a pale poster would be that." It's like, actually, maybe all the guys who have these so-called masculine photos of holding up a dead fish-

    17. AAAli Abdaal50:17

        [laughs]

    18. LULogan Ury50:17

        ... that's a huge turn-off, and that's a cliche, and people literally will swipe past that. And instead, if you're just a bold, curious person who says, "This is what I'm about. I'm a layered person with complexities. I bet you are, too"

    19. AAAli Abdaal50:30

        Mm.

    20. LULogan Ury50:30

        That is going to stand out. That is gonna be more unique. That is gonna have more hooks. And so I think that while I also am an optimizer and I also like to have strategies and do things the right way, there's something about love in which it's two deeply complicated people who have to come together, choose each other, and continue to choose each other. And I think for every moment that you're spending thinking about the baby blue sheets and the pastel posters, you could be spending that either becoming a more interesting person, which I, I know that you spend a lot of time on, or contacting more people or going out on more dates or actually learning by engaging. I think that the profiles matter, but at a certain point it's less about optimizing the individual pictures-

    21. AAAli Abdaal51:15

        Yeah

    22. LULogan Ury51:15

        ... and more about learning and updating, and that's sort of the scientific method, right? It's not just ask a million friends what you think the outcome will be, but actually test it. And so if you have that picture on there and nobody comments on it for weeks, maybe it's taking the place of something that people could comment on.

    23. AAAli Abdaal51:30

        Mm.

    24. LULogan Ury51:30

        And so make your best case scenario profile, see how you do, switch out your first photo, switch out your prompts, and your end goal is to create a dynamic story with variety, with a, with a lot of hooks that people are commenting on or liking or asking you questions about.

    25. AAAli Abdaal51:48

        Amazing. Yeah, that makes so much sense. And after all of this, like, [laughs] ex- experimentation, I, I, I landed on a profile that had I showed it to my male friends two years ago, they would've been like, "Oof, it's not very masculine." But I was like, "You know what? It's fine." Like, that's not the vibe we're trying to go for here. We're trying to go for someone who would kind of appreciate what I'm actually like rather than a sort of false persona of what Reddit and, you know, these other books and websites tell me that girls would, uh, women, w- women would potentially want. Um, and that ended up working-

    26. LULogan Ury52:17

        Yeah

    27. AAAli Abdaal52:18

        ... reasonably well, so that was good.

    28. LULogan Ury52:19

        Ding, ding, ding.

    29. AAAli Abdaal52:20

        Yeah. [laughs]

    30. LULogan Ury52:20

        I love everything you said. I would write it down and I would underline it. And right, you're trying to portray who you are and get one person who's interested in you. You are not trying to hack an entire gender and figure out what the most number of people would like.
11. 57:02 – 1:05:11

    What makes a good relationships?

    1. AAAli Abdaal57:02

       Um, just, like, while we're on this, on, on, on this tangent, I wanted to ask, like, what, w- what is the kind of, uh, broad brushstrokes of what the research says on what is attractive and what are the qualities that make for a good long-term partner? Can you men- You, you mentioned there's research on, on, on both those.

    2. LULogan Ury57:18

       So the people who I admire the most in this field are the Gottmans. So John and Julie Gottman, highly recommend people check out their stuff. And they've been doing research into the topic of love for over four decades, and they run this institute called the Gottman Institute, and some of their most interesting research happened in this space called the Love Lab. So what they would do is they had this apartment sort of in a B&B that they would invite couples to come to, and this apartment was decked out in ways to monitor them, and yes, people knew that they were being monitored. And so it would have cameras and microphones, and it even had this thing under the chair called the jigglometer that would see how much your chair moved and maybe how anxious you were. It was testing your urine. There was tons of data being collected. What they would do is they'd have a couple there over the weekend, and they would observe them. And what they did is they had couples there for a period of time, and then six years later, they saw who are the couples that stayed together happily, what they called the relationship masters, and who are the couples who were unhappily together or had broken up. They called these the relationship disasters. And they did all this research to understand what were the behaviors that we saw in that first setting that might have helped predict who was gonna thrive versus break up. And so the most important thing that they found is this concept called bids, and a bid is a verbal or non-verbal chance to connect. So a very obvious bid might be me saying to you, "Hey, I had a hard day. Can we talk about it?" I'm being very explicit that I want to talk to you. But it also might be me reading an email and sighing loudly, [sighs] and I want you to say to me, "What's wrong?" And so it's this chance to connect. And then they measure how does your partner respond, and there's three ways the partner can respond. Turn towards you, asking a question, reaching out, trying to engage. Turning away from you, that could be just ignoring you. Or turning against you, just saying, "Why are you making so much noise? You know that I'm trying to get work done." And so what they found is that for the relationship masters, they turn toget- they turn towards each other 86% of the time. So they're making a lot of bids, and they are accepting each other's bids. And the relationship disasters, they only turn towards each other 33% of the time. So you and I are talking about these very strategic things about, like, profile and masculinity and how do you portray yourself. But what the Gottmans would say is that the secret to a successful long-term relationship is small things often. Having a habit of trying to connect with your partner and noticing when your partner's trying to connect with you and taking that time to really invest in each other, turn away from distractions, and really say, "This is what's going on with me. What's going on with you?" And just... It, it's those daily habits and those daily moments. It's not the trip to Hawaii or the, you know, exciting new sex toy. It's about constantly investing in each other.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:00:21

       Hmm. So this segues nicely into something else that I w- I, I wanted to talk to you about, and that is the extent to which this bid stuff is different when you're dating versus when you're in a relationship. And what I mean by that is that, um, you know, like, so a few, a f- a few, a few months ago, I was, I was, I was going on a few dates, and we were kind of chatting a bit via WhatsApp messages afterwards. And, uh, obviously, I turned to some of my female friends to help me respond to some of these messages, uh, as, as one does. [laughs] Um- And one of the points that I, of, of feedback that I got from some people, and this was not everyone, but, but some people, was that I was coming across as too keen, and my response rate was too fast. And she said that thing, and she asked you a question, and then you responded to it, but then you, like, overly elaborated on that response, which signals to her that you have nothing better to do with your time, that you're begging for her attention. She, you know, in the dating stage, she wants to feel as if she's doing some of the work. Therefore, you need to tone the hell down, your response time, and kind of be less like a beggy about, like-

    4. LULogan Ury1:01:33

       [laughs]

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:01:33

       ... the way you're responding to her. Uh, this was some of my female friends. There were other female friends that were like, "That's completely terrible advice. You're just having a normal conversation. Like, screw all of that." Wha- [laughs] what's the, what's the solution here? [laughs]

    6. LULogan Ury1:01:45

       Okay. I am giggling and covering my face because this is such a hot topic that I could talk about for hours. Everything you're saying I could talk about for hours, but I feel honored to get the chance to bust some myths around this.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:01:57

       Oh, yes.

    8. LULogan Ury1:01:57

       So remember-

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:01:58

       Love it. [laughs]

    10. LULogan Ury1:01:58

        ... right? I work with people one on one. I have the anecdotes. I have the stories. I also work at Hinge, which means I have access to millions of data points around how this stuff works. We did this fascinating research on the topic of responsiveness, and what we found is that if somebody messages you and you respond within the hour, you have a much greater chance of having a long conversation and even going on a date. And so all of this nonsense around play games, match how many hours she waited to respond and then you do the same, none of that helps you get into a relationship with somebody who's a good communicator, who talks authentically, who is somebody who you can be yourself with. All of that is a way to just maximize a game, and you're not trying to play a game or win a game. You're trying to find a long-term relationship. And so what I would say is, remember, you are talking to a bunch of people. She is talking to a bunch of people, right? It's a noisy bar with a lot of conversations. One of the best ways to stand out is to just engage in a conversation with her and try to make it as synchronous, so talking at the same time, as possible.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:03:07

        Mm-hmm.

    12. LULogan Ury1:03:07

        And so the data on this is very clear. Responsiveness on a dating app is a useful strategy because it helps you get into the conversation and stand out. And one thing that you can do strategically is pretty early on say something like, "You know, I'm more into texting. Can we transition to text?" And something about getting from the busy dating app inbox to the more personal, um, texting or Snapchat inbox is that now you're in the place where her friends are and you can help stand out.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:03:38

        Mm.

    14. LULogan Ury1:03:38

        And so generally, in that place, I would say you wanna be playful and you wanna play, but you don't wanna play games.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:03:45

        I remember a, a few, uh, probably, probably earlier this year, um, I was on one of these apps. This was on Muzmatch, actually, um, that I inter- interviewed the founder of on this podcast in episode number two if anyone wants-

    16. LULogan Ury1:03:57

        Oh

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:03:57

        ... to check it out. Um, there was a girl whose profile I came across who I wasn't like, like, like I wasn't massively sold on the profile. I was just like, "Oh, mm," kind of lu- lukewarm towards it. But one of the prompts that, that she said, she s- she said like, "You know, what's, what, one fact about me that will surprise you?" Or something like that. And she said, "I reply ridiculously fast to messages." I was like, "Oh, okay." And then I, I commented on that as being like, "Just testing" or something, something, something like that, and she replied within like 10 seconds.

    18. LULogan Ury1:04:24

        [laughs]

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:04:24

        And we ended up going on a date and actually having a great time and, like, you know, the spark wasn't there and, and, and all this and that, but, like, we actually had a great conversation through, through the app, went on the date, and I was like, "Wow, this person really stands out by actually being quick at responding to messages."

    20. LULogan Ury1:04:37

        Yes.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:04:37

        Because otherwise, it's like you send-

    22. LULogan Ury1:04:38

        Yes

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:04:38

        ... a message, you wait 18 hours, nothing happens, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Like, it was such a breath of fresh air. Um, and I just never, I guess, I guess in my head, because as a, as a guy in this scenario, I think guys are more sensitive to the a girl will be turned off if you come across as too keen. I, I, I didn't quite-

    24. LULogan Ury1:04:56

        Mm

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:04:57

        ... sort of put two and two together and think, you know, maybe if I were quick at responding, people would, would vibe with me a bit better.

    26. LULogan Ury1:05:03

        I wanna make a meta point because I think a lot of what you're bringing to me as questions are things that are like there's an old wives' tale-

12. 1:05:11 – 1:07:17

    Myths about relationships and dating

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:05:11

       Yeah

    2. LULogan Ury1:05:11

       ... or there's general cultural wisdom that you should do X, and many of my answers are, no, I would advise doing Y. And so I think we could go through all of those different ones, but I just wanna make this as a general point, which is that if you were to start a YouTube channel and all you did was study the most popular YouTube channels, you might just end up creating a copy of the most popular people done with worse lighting, worse audio equipment, worse guest, and you are less good at interviewing, right? You're just doing a copy of something else, and you blend into the background. Maybe you wanna do something different. Maybe you wanna innovate. Maybe you wanna stand out, and I think that sometimes when we're looking at so many profiles, doing something surprising, creating that hook, showing your individuality is the best possible thing that you can do. Because if you see 10 dead fish pictures in a row and then you see a guy who says, "I spend most of my day on the computer because that is my job, but at night I love to play a board game with you," that is different. And so for her, you know, you're talking about men don't wanna seem like they are too available, so they shouldn't respond quickly. Well, women also wanna, don't wanna seem like they're too needy. So in writing that, she's really standing out, and I think it's, it's not- That there are no rules, but I think in general these rules make us focus on the wrong thing.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:06:31

       Mm.

    4. LULogan Ury1:06:31

       When the things that we should be focusing on are be the best person you can be, invest in your communication skills, learn how to talk about hard topics like sex and conflict, treat the other person well. And when you know that you're not interested in somebody, break up with them in a kind, respectful, and firm way, and move on. I think if we worked on those foundational skills of human connection, and less time on, well, how long did she spend to respond to this message, and do I seem needy, I, I, I think that that's investing the wrong energy in the wrong place.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:07:06

       Hm. Yeah, and this is exactly the si- [laughs] the, the, the stuff I tell kind of Y- YouTubers as well. [laughs] Stop focusing on the wrong things. Focus on the stuff that's gonna move the needle, i.e., actually making videos and slowly getting better over time. One of the things

13. 1:07:17 – 1:19:17

    Prom date vs life partner

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:07:17

       you talk about in the book is the idea of, um, prom date versus life partner. And if I kinda paraphrase, uh, there are different things that we're looking for in a prom date where maybe we're focused on how attractive are they and how adventurous and risky and interesting do they seem, whereas there are different qualities that we look for in a life partner which are more like, I think, growth mindset, uh, emotional maturity, the ability to fight well and communicate clearly, et cetera. Um, uh, d- how... When, when it comes to, like, first and second dates, how would you go about sussing out the more deeper qualities where, uh, in, in the context of a date where, like, everyone is kind of putting on their best behavior, you would, you would think?

    2. LULogan Ury1:07:55

       Great. So yes, I love this concept, and I think that it's really important in people's personal development to make that shift from the prom date to the life partner. And unfortunately, some people just think, oh, that happens with time. But no, I think you really have to make a concerted effort to say, like, yeah, that guy's really hot and it'd be fun to sleep with him, but he's actually not that reliable. I don't know if he'll show up when he says he will. I'm constantly worried about him letting me down. And actually what I'm experiencing isn't chemistry, it's anxiety. And so that's the prom date, and now I'm going to reject that person and move towards a life partner. And so for anyone listening or watching, I would say if you consistently find yourself with prom dates, I want you to focus on the life partner.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:08:37

       Hm.

    4. LULogan Ury1:08:38

       In terms of how to find these people early on, I think you can do it as early as the profile, the messaging, and first dates. And it's really about coming up with some questions that help you elicit certain responses. And so something about the growth mindset is people with a growth mindset feel like they can try new skills safely. And even if they're bad at them, that's totally fine, because life is about getting better, as opposed to somebody with a fixed mindset who says you're born with these skills and you can't improve them. So a question I've been encouraging people to ask over the last two years while we've been in the pandemic is something like, [lips smack] "What's something that you were bad at that you've gotten better at?" Or, "Have you invested any time, especially during lockdown, in working on any skills?" And, you know, you can iterate that, on that and make it sound more casual, but just understanding is this the kind of person who says, "I have a lot of alone time. I'm gonna learn to speak Spanish" or did they just spend more time playing video games, right? Like, what is this person's orientation toward growth? In terms of loyalty, a really important quality, you can ask these people, you know, "Do you have friends from different stages of your life?" Or, "What is the best gift you've ever given?" There's chances where you say, "This is the quality in the person I'm looking for. This is the question that strategically helps me understand if they have that." And then I'm actually going to listen to their answer and see how it jives with me and not just say, "Well, actually, all their answers were terrible, but they're so hot, I'm gonna ignore it."

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:10:07

       [laughs]

    6. LULogan Ury1:10:07

       No, no, no. That's a prom date thing.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:10:09

       Yeah.

    8. LULogan Ury1:10:10

       Listen to their answers and say, "Is this the kind of person that I wanna keep getting to know, or do I wanna find someone who's more aligned with the qualities I'm looking for?"

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:10:18

       Hm. Yeah, one of the, one of the things that I, I accidentally did, this was before I read the book, is that, um, on this, uh, with, with this girl who I'm, I'm now, like, I guess in a relationship with, uh, well, that feel, that still feels weird to say. Um, on our, on our second date-

    10. LULogan Ury1:10:32

        Yay

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:10:32

        ... we went to play Topgolf, which is, like, this cross between 10-pin bowling and a golf drivers, d- driving range, and neither of us had ever played golf before. And so I messaged her being like, "Hey, do you wanna try this golf thing?" And she was like, "I mean, I've never played golf before." I was like, "Me neither. Let's just give it a go." And she was totally up for it, and that was one of the things that really stood out where I was like she was totally cool with actually trying out this new thing, being okay with looking like a bit of an idiot playing, both of us playing this sport that we never played before. Um, and so I really liked that as, um, a thing. And then I read the growth mindset stuff in the book, and I was like, ooh, I kind of accidentally [laughs] kind of selected for that particular quality, which was kinda nice.

    12. LULogan Ury1:11:08

        I, I love that story so much. I think there's so much to that. First of all, you were brave in suggesting something that you weren't good at. There might be somebody out there who says, "Oh, I only take people on dates to things I'm really good at so that I look good in a certain light." No, what you were showing is that you're fun and spontaneous and willing to try new things and be bad at them, and she was also willing to do that. So I think that's a great idea. [inhales] I talked before about dating like a scientist. Part of dating like a scientist is having a hypothesis, testing it, and then looking at the data. And so a big thing that people have been asking me in the last year or so is, "I wanna ask people if we can do a phone call or a video date before we meet up, but some people will be turned off by that." I think using what you said, um, hey, on a scale of, uh, this is scary to I'm interested, how open are you to having a phone call or a video call? That could be a cool way of doing it. But I also think just asking and seeing how the person responds gives you a lot of data. So maybe somebody says, "A video call? What, are you screening me for a job? That's weird, no." Or they say, "I haven't done that before, but I'm open to it." And so it's each moment is a chance to see you're putting out, um, some sort of stimulus, and you're seeing how they're responding to it, and that gives you a lot of information. And so do the bold thing, ask the question, and see if they can roll with it. Or are they so traditional and so tied to certain norms that that freaks them out? Well, if you don't like that, then that's maybe not the kind of person you wanna be with.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:12:37

        Nice. One of the things that you talk about is the sort of ref- actively reflecting on a date when you get back from it. Um, and I wanted to ask, like To what extent, like, or wha- what are the sorts of questions that we should be asking when we get back from dates, and to what extent is, like, a sort of checklist approach to this a good idea? Because we talk about things like growth mindset and emotional maturity and ability to communicate. Is that the sort of thing, like, uh, similar to how, like, if you're hiring someone for a job, you wanna have, like, a scorecard and you wanna be able to evaluate each candidate against the scorecard, is this the sort of person who would be able to do X? To what extent is that, like, a decent approach when it comes to dating and reflecting on dates afterwards?

    14. LULogan Ury1:13:17

        In general, I think that having a checklist is not helpful because often what's on that checklist is the wrong stuff.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:13:24

        Mm-hmm.

    16. LULogan Ury1:13:24

        It's height, income, perceived success, do we have the same hobbies. I think a lot of times that checklist is based on what we think matters in long-term relationships, which the research shows us doesn't matter in long-term relationships. So as a concept, I would say throw out your checklist, be willing to date someone who's not your type. It is very possible that the person you end up with, the person who makes you happiest long term, is not the person you thought you would be with.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:13:50

        Hmm.

    18. LULogan Ury1:13:51

        That being said, in my book, I offer this exercise called the Post-Date Eight. The Post-Date Eight is based on research on gratitude journals. So there's amazing research from many people, including Shawn Achor of Harvard, that says if at the end of the day you have to write down three things that you're grateful for, your brain will actually be looking for them throughout the day. So if you're running to make the bus and you make it, maybe five minutes later you forget about it, but if you know la- at that night you have to write it down, then you're going to notice it more. So what we do at the end impacts what we look for throughout. So the Post-Date Eight is the same idea. I've taken what I believe and what the research shows matters for evaluating a date. I've turned it into these list of eight questions. Things like, how did I feel in my body around this person? Do I feel curious about this person? What side of me did this person bring out? And then throughout the date, you aren't looking at their height and their job. You're paying attention to those things, and at the end of the date, you ask yourself the Post-Date Eight to decide, do I want to see this person again? And so it is a version of a checklist, but it's a checklist designed to help you focus on what matters, not what doesn't.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:15:04

        Nice. And, uh, I wonder if you can give some examples of, like, what, what are some of the questions in the Post-Date Eight?

    20. LULogan Ury1:15:10

        Sure. So from all the research that I've done and even the coaching I've done since my book has come out, this one of what side of me did this person bring out is huge because it helps you understand great on paper brings out a bad side of me, I don't wanna see them again. That's a really helpful insight. Another one is this idea of do they energize me or de-energize me? So there's an activity called a penthouse and a basement person. You think in your life, not even in a romantic setting, who is my penthouse person? Who when I'm with them do they bring my energy up? Do I feel creative? Do I feel inspired? So for you, who's your penthouse person?

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:15:47

        Who's my penthouse person? Uh, I can think of a few university friends. I think my brother is one of my penthouse people, which is why we kinda decided to start a podcast together. Um, my current housemate is a penthouse person definitely. [laughs]

    22. LULogan Ury1:15:59

        I love that. Yeah, so you have this penthouse person. That's another helpful benchmark.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:16:02

        Hmm.

    24. LULogan Ury1:16:02

        And you have a basement person, somebody who makes you feel depressed, down, de-energized. And so just asking this question, did I feel more energized or less energized after the date, helps you understand where that person falls and helps you get closer to finding a penthouse person because, of course, the person you end up with in a romantic relationship, you want them to bring out that inspired, capable, creative part of you.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:16:24

        Hmm.

    26. LULogan Ury1:16:25

        And so it's really helping you understand what stuff matters, what stuff to pay attention to, and it ignores things like did I think they have an impressive job and do we have enough hobbies in common, stuff that people think matters but really doesn't.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:16:41

        Nice. Um, uh, y- one of the things that you talk about in the book is to always go on the second date. Uh, what's the, what's the deal with that? [laughs]

    28. LULogan Ury1:16:50

        Yes. So there's a whole idea in behavioral science of defaults, and so whatever we create as a default sticks with us. So if a hamburger place has fries as the default, most people will stick with that and get the fries. If a hamburger place has a salad as a default, most people will stick with that. In general, we stick with what the default is and these rules of thumbs. The next thing is that in dating, I think we put too much pressure on the first date. Some of the best people I know do not perform well on first dates. They are awkward. They are not comfortable. They are not good at small talk. They are more introverted. This is harder for them, but these are people who would make great long-term partners. And so how can we actually take the pressure off the first date and say, "First dates are almost a warm-up round. It's, uh, do I like the sound of your voice? Am I attracted to you? Do we have something to talk about?" And I'm gonna assume that we're gonna go on the second date pending that nothing crazy or terrible or unsafe happens on the first date. And that way, if you go in assuming you'll go on the second date, you're giving people more of a shot, and it's easier to find those diamond in the rough people who get better over time. And one of the things I talk about throughout the book is this idea of fuck the spark, go after the slow burn. The spark is somebody who gives you instant chemistry. They make you feel so attracted to them, like you've known them for a million years. But honestly, a lot of sparky people are charismatic but also narcissistic. They're focused on getting you to fall for them, but they're not actually asking themselves if they like you.

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:18:23

        Hmm.

    30. LULogan Ury1:18:23

        The spark is something that you can chase that burns, that burns out quickly. Instead, you wanna find this slow burn, someone who you like more and more over time. Your appreciation for them grows, and those are really the people to go after. And so some of my friends who are in the best relationships that I admire, they had terrible first dates, but either because I told them to go on a second date or their mom told them to go on a second date, they gave that person more of a chance. And so you will find some great people if you make the second date the default.
14. 1:19:17 – 1:24:10

    The evaluative vs experiential mindset

    1. LULogan Ury1:19:17

       Totally, and there's this concept I talk about, about the evaluative versus the experiential mindset.

    2. AAAli Abdaal1:19:22

       Mm.

    3. LULogan Ury1:19:22

       So the evaluative mindset is, are you good enough for me? Where did you go to uni? What are your table manners? I'm constantly judging you against this rubric in my head and saying, "Are you good enough?"

    4. AAAli Abdaal1:19:32

       Yeah.

    5. LULogan Ury1:19:32

       The experiential mindset is I'm going to be in the moment with you. I am going to be looking at cues for how I feel, and if I'm having fun, and am I laughing, but I'm not judging you. I think we just do so much better when we are in the moment, having fun, letting time pass versus when we are constantly evaluating someone. And even what you said before about having a job description and measuring somebody against this, I feel like as a culture, one of the biggest mistakes that we're making is we're saying, "Let's take what works at work and let's apply that to dating," and that's a mistake. This is a date.

    6. AAAli Abdaal1:20:07

       Mm-hmm.

    7. LULogan Ury1:20:07

       This is not a job interview. If you are showing up with a corporate mindset and a spreadsheet, and you're giving me 15 minutes to give your investor pitch, you're gonna go on 100 dates, and it's not gonna work out because that is not what leads to connection. And so yes, it's great that you are killing it at your job, but if you are applying all of what you do at your job to dating, you're probably not having the connection that you're looking for.

    8. AAAli Abdaal1:20:28

       Ooh, this is so interesting, experiential versus evaluative. Um, so this really resonates with me b- because, um, again, earlier, earlier this da- earlier this year when I was, like, acti- actively dating, um, one of my female friends would always ask, you know, w- "How, how was it?" And I'd be like, "Yeah, it was pretty good. You know, we, we had a good time. We vibed. I think we get on." Um, and then she was like, "No, like, I'm... I, I..." And then she was like, "Okay. What do you, what do you like about her?" I was like, "Oh, I don't know. Um, I mean, I guess we vibed, and we got on, and it, it was a, it was a good time." And she was like, "Hang on, mate. You're doing this all wrong. You wanna be going in with a, uh, in, in a way a checklist of these are the qualities I'm looking for. You wanna design questions that, that sort of suss it out, and you wanna be in a way treating this like a job interview so that when you, when someone asks you what you like in the person, you're actually able to talk about it." And I was like, "Well, uh, this, this seems weird." Like, if you ask me what I like about my friends, I'd be like, "Pff." I mean, I, I probably can't list off a checklist of things. And this friend was saying, "Oh, that's just c- because you're not, like, emotionally mature enough yet. Once you become more emotionally mature, then you'll be able to know what it is you like about someone and be able to articulate it rather than saying, 'Oh, we vibed.'" Um, what's, uh, what's, what's, what's going on there? [laughs] Any thoughts?

    9. LULogan Ury1:21:38

       I'm laughing because I almost feel like I'm saying some things that are in conflict, but in my mind they're clear. But we should probably-

    10. AAAli Abdaal1:21:45

        Yeah

    11. LULogan Ury1:21:45

        ... go through them and clear them up. And so for example, when I walked you through that exercise about what are the three things you wanna communicate-

    12. AAAli Abdaal1:21:52

        Yeah

    13. LULogan Ury1:21:52

        ... to me, that's just saying, like, this is, like, your one shot to have a billboard about you, and I do think you should be strategic. But then in other ways I said, I don't think you should optimize the color of the posters on your background.

    14. AAAli Abdaal1:22:03

        [laughs]

    15. LULogan Ury1:22:03

        And so it's like you wanna invest. You wanna put your best foot forward, but you don't wanna spend too much time, right, in that last 20%. You wanna focus on the 80% that matters. And so for this situation, I could see somebody listening or watching and being confused and saying, "Well, she's saying you have a checklist, but it's a post-date aid. It's not a checklist about that person's qualities." What I would say for this topic and for what your friend said is that so often people come to me and they say, "Logan, I know exactly what I want. I just need your help finding that person." Then they go through this list of, "He must be over six feet tall. He must make at least six figures. He must love travel. He must have parents who are not divorced," and they go on and on and on with this list. And unfortunately, the older people get, when maybe they should be coming more flexible because the pool is smaller, the list gets longer, and they say, "Well, I've waited this long. He better be perfect." And that's not a good strategy. How I think about it is this so-called type of yours, these qualities that you're so sure that you need, how has that been working out for you? Maybe you've dated plenty of people with that, and it hasn't worked out because what you think you want is not what's actually going to make you happy long term. And so my husband is a 5'8" redheaded vegan engineer. Do you think that if I made a checklist, those would be all the things on my list? No, that wouldn't have been on my list, but he is brilliant. He is hilarious. He understands me better than I understand myself. We have the most fun together. We see the world in a similar way. I couldn't have made a list to find my husband, but when I started hanging out with him and I saw the side of me he brought out, and I found myself thinking about him all the time, and we had the best jokes and the best conversations, I realized this was a good match for me. And so take your checklist, take your so-called type, rip it up, be willing to say, "I'm gonna date different types of people and see what side of me they bring out." So be strict about how you want your partner to make you feel and the life you want-

    16. AAAli Abdaal1:24:05

        Hmm

    17. LULogan Ury1:24:06

        ... and be flexible about how they show up in the world and what qualities they

15. 1:24:10 – 1:26:10

    Is it wrong not to know about what you like about someone?

    1. LULogan Ury1:24:10

       have.

    2. AAAli Abdaal1:24:10

       Is it reasonable to go on a date and not really be able to articulate what you liked about someone and instead just that you vibed? Or is that just a-

    3. LULogan Ury1:24:19

       Ah.

    4. AAAli Abdaal1:24:20

       Yeah.

    5. LULogan Ury1:24:20

       I love that. I mean, I think you really nailed this question when you said, "I couldn't tell you everything about my friends that I like."

    6. AAAli Abdaal1:24:27

       Yeah.

    7. LULogan Ury1:24:27

       I think if I'm... I mean, I have a lot of close friends, and I think if I think about them, what I might say is something like, "I don't have to censor myself. I can say exactly how I feel. I can be petty. I can be unkind. I can be selfish. I can be self-absorbed, and I can just say, 'This is what's going on with me. Give me space to vent,' and they will hold that space for me, and it will be totally fine." Thinking about people who I don't vibe with as much, and it's because I think that they're judging me, or I feel like-

    8. AAAli Abdaal1:24:52

       Yeah

    9. LULogan Ury1:24:52

       ... they want something from me, or our relationship isn't balanced. And so it's really humans are complicated. If humans were less complicated, there would have already been an algorithm that perfectly predicts from day one who out of the millions of people in your country or city you should date. The reason that doesn't exist is because we have years of habits, years of trauma We have different characteristics. We have different personality traits. And so the only way to know if you're a good match with someone is to spend time with them and see how you feel around them. Can you imagine bringing them into your home and, and building a life with them? And so you don't have to be able to articulate, "She said this thing, which implies this thing, which goes against my list." You could just say, "I could imagine myself talking to her for hours."

    10. AAAli Abdaal1:25:37

        Mm.

    11. LULogan Ury1:25:37

        Or, "I found that my brain was making interesting connections, and I felt energized from our conversation."

    12. AAAli Abdaal1:25:44

        Hm. Nice. I really like that. I feel, I feel partially vindicated in these, in these conversations [laughs] as to-

    13. LULogan Ury1:25:50

        Yeah. I mean, it's funny-

    14. AAAli Abdaal1:25:51

        ... not really knowing what I want. Yeah [laughs]

    15. LULogan Ury1:25:52

        ... I feel like I'm, I feel like I'm judging your friends, but I kind of am, because I feel like your friends are bringing a lot of cultural baggage to you-

    16. AAAli Abdaal1:25:58

        Mm

    17. LULogan Ury1:25:58

        ... saying, "Here's the rule," and you're breaking it. And what if I said to you, "There's no rule. The number one thing is be a good person and pay attention."

    18. AAAli Abdaal1:26:06

        [laughs] Speaking of rules, uh, there is another friend who I've

16. 1:26:10 – 1:30:01

    The first kiss

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:26:10

       not talked about yet, um, who... So I'd, I'd been on a, I'd, I'd, I'd been on a first date, uh, with someone, and I was very concerned about the whole first kiss situation and, like, when, when do you go for the first kiss? And I brought this up on a group holiday with some friends, and we're just like, "Yeah, I don't really know, like, uh, you know, I, I guess when the moment's right." But like... And, and one of my friends said, "No, no, no. In my experience if we haven't kissed by the third date, then it's a no-go. That's a massive red flag." And then suddenly I was like, "Oh, shit," like, "There's a, there's a, there's a three-date rule." And I even went through the motions-

    2. LULogan Ury1:26:44

       [laughs]

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:26:44

       ... of like, uh, sort of rehearsing this with some of my friends. I'd be like, "Okay, if we're sitting by a park bench, uh, and we're sitting on the bench, then, then how do I go, how do I go for the first kiss? If we're sitting in the car, how do we go?" Like, all of, all of, all of, all of this kind of stuff. Um, and describing it now, and for someone listening to this, it probably seems really bizarre. But there is... I, I feel like there is some element of truth where it's like, uh, if, well, you n- you know, having, having polled a, a handful of female friends about this, they do say that, "Oh, well, if he hasn't made a move by at least, uh, you know, by the third date, it kinda suggests that he's not really, either he's not really into me or he's just not that confident, and therefore it's, it's a no from me." How do we approach this, uh, three-date rule situation when it comes to the first kiss? And I guess the broader question is a more meta question about rules and regulations when it comes to dating.

    4. LULogan Ury1:27:32

       So this is a question I get a lot, and I wouldn't say that I necessarily have a rule on it. I would just say it, it's really hard, especially it became hard after 2017 with the Me Too era.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:27:44

       Yeah.

    6. LULogan Ury1:27:45

       Because there was a lot of feelings of, "I wanna be bold, but I don't wanna be creepy."

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:27:50

       Yes.

    8. LULogan Ury1:27:50

       "I want her to know I'm interested."

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:27:51

       Exactly, yeah.

    10. LULogan Ury1:27:51

        "I don't wanna ask for permission in a way that seems weak."

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:27:54

        Mm.

    12. LULogan Ury1:27:54

        And so I just wanna acknowledge that for everyone I think this is really hard. Then you add into it a pandemic where being in someone's face, breathing on them, sharing a kiss with them is actually potentially putting them in danger. This has just become a very difficult conversation. And so my advice for my clients is that there is a sexy and confident way to say, "Can I kiss you?" And so part of it-

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:28:20

        Oh. What's that? [laughs]

    14. LULogan Ury1:28:21

        ... starts with body language.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:28:22

        Yeah [laughs]

    16. LULogan Ury1:28:22

        What did you say?

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:28:23

        Uh, what is that way? [laughs]

    18. LULogan Ury1:28:25

        I think that it's, first of all, I think that there's body language. I think you can see, you know, if you're close to someone, do they seem to be leaning into you? If you touch their arm, do they seem to like it? You know, you can whisper in their ear. I think that there are some subtle, flirtatious things that you can do to say, "You know, I'm going to get closer to your space and seeing if you respond well." The pandemic does complicate a lot of this, because I think some people would be like, "I don't want you to be anywhere near me." But what I would say is that at the end of the date you could say something like, "I really wanna kiss you. How would you feel about that?" Or, um, you know, "What are your thoughts on kissing on the first date?" Or just something where it's like-

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:29:06

        [laughs] Oh, no way

    20. LULogan Ury1:29:07

        ... you are asking for-

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:29:08

        That, that second one was exactly what I said. I said [laughs] how would-

    22. LULogan Ury1:29:10

        Really?

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:29:11

        "How would you feel about kissing on the second date?" [laughs]

    24. LULogan Ury1:29:13

        Yay.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:29:14

        Uh.

    26. LULogan Ury1:29:14

        I love that. Yeah.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:29:15

        Yeah.

    28. LULogan Ury1:29:15

        Maybe I'm inspired by your earlier thing that I really liked about saying, you know, "What are your thoughts on this?"

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:29:19

        Yeah.

    30. LULogan Ury1:29:19

        I think it's a clever way of basically getting at someone's thoughts, but you're obviously saying, "Can I kiss you?"
17. 1:30:01 – 1:33:51

    What makes for a good or a bad date?

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:30:01

       what are the things that make for a good or bad date in your experience?

    2. LULogan Ury1:30:06

       I have some tips that help people create great dates, dates that lead to connection. So the first tip is that the date doesn't just start when you show up. The date actually starts hours before when you get into the mindset. So my version of an old quote is, whether you think the date will go poorly or you think the date will go well, you're right. And so what that means is that your mindset matters. So if you're transitioning from a hard day at work where your boss was yelling at you and going straight into a date, you're not gonna bring an excitable, present part of yourself. You're gonna bring a stressed part. So I want you to proactively take time between work or whatever else you're doing and the date and getting into a mindset. That might be spraying yourself with perfume because you're turned on by scents. It might be listening to a pump-up playlist to get your energy going. It might be working out. What are the things that you can do to cultivate the right mindset for a date? The next thing is what are you actually doing on the date? So many dates are these job interviews where I sit across from you and I say, "What did you study and why, and how many siblings do you have, and what's your five-year plan?" And you know what? Who cares? That doesn't really affect our ability to be in a relationship together. It's dry. It's boring. Coffee dates that feel like job interviews all fade into the same. Why can't we do an activity together? Why can't we meet up in a park and run around and try to pet five dogs? Why can't we go to a street with a lot of dumpling places and create our own dumpling tour and figure out our best one? Why can't we have an experience together where we're doing something, we're having fun? Even if we don't have a connection, at least we had a fun experience together, and it takes the pressure off. So designing a date with a lot of fun and playfulness. Another thing is really listening. So often, we have our cell phones out, and there's great research that shows that a conversation is much less deep and much less empathetic when our phone is out. Because what happens is, I think, as soon as your phone blinks, you're gonna check it, and I might be in the middle of something deep and personal, and I don't want that to happen, so I'm just not even gonna go there. So put your phone away. Turn it off. Put it under the table. Ask questions that help you connect versus just waiting for your turn to talk. So there's this concept called a shift versus support response. A shift response is when, um, you say something like, "I'm going to adopt a Goldendoodle puppy," and I shift the attention back to me and I say, "Oh, I've always wanted a puppy, but I don't have a puppy because of my job." A support response is I say, "Why do you want a dog? Have you ever had a dog before? How did you choose that breed?" It helps you go deeper into your story. Support responses are really great for a date because in the end, people care about how you make them feel, and what people... what makes people feel good is when you make them feel interesting versus you being interesting.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:32:50

       Mm.

    4. LULogan Ury1:32:50

       So it's much less about sharing stories that make you seem cool and much more about asking them questions that make them feel important. And then my last tip is end on a high note. There's amazing research from the behavioral economist, um, Daniel Kahneman, which found that when people are getting colonoscopies, they'd actually rather get a colonoscopy that's slightly longer but ends in a less painful way because we disproportionately remember things based on how they end. So even if you have a mediocre date, you can save it by ending on a high note. You can ask someone for a kiss and give them a great kiss. You can order dessert. You can give them a meaningful compliment. You can show them a surprise mural that they've never seen before. And so really think about, how can I end this date in a meaningful and fun and memorable way?

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:33:42

       Nice. Really great stuff. Um, earlier today, I posted on Instagram and on Twitter basically saying I was interviewing you, and we, we, we've got a bunch of questions in from,

18. 1:33:51 – 1:42:13

    What are you top tips for being a better life partner?

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:33:51

       uh, random people in the audience. Um, so if that's all right, can I chuck some of these at you? So let's start with the, uh, the girlfriend one because obviously, you know, need to prioritize her. Um-

    2. LULogan Ury1:34:00

       [laughs] I love it. I agree

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:34:01

       ... so she says, um... Ooh, okay. She's got three, actually. Okay, the first one: What are your top tips for becoming a better life partner f- to someone else?

    4. LULogan Ury1:34:13

       I love this question, and it's something that I've been thinking about a lot. I don't know exactly if I'll write a second book or what would it be about, but this is one of the main things that I'm considering. So my first book, in many ways, is about how to choose the right person, and there's almost an implication that, okay, there's all these people. You can get whoever you want, and how do you choose among them?

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:34:37

       Mm.

    6. LULogan Ury1:34:37

       But the truth is many of us are not necessarily who we wanna be, or we wouldn't even necessarily be good partners right now. And so I think what needs to go along with that is how to be a good partner. And so in the book, in the chapter called Go For The Life Partner, Not The Prom Date, I talk about this idea of loyalty and how you wanna find somebody who's with you for the ups and the downs. And in that chapter, I quote my sister's speech... Or no, I quote, um... Yeah. Ah. Um, in that chapter, I quote this article from about a decade ago that my sister loves, um, which is from this woman who's an oncologist. So she's a cancer doctor, and she's talking about how her friends say, "I wanna find a guy who loves long walks on the beach, and I wanna find a guy who loves dogs as much as I do." And what she says from being an oncologist is, "You wanna find a guy who will hold your purse." And what she means by that is that she sees different husbands in the cancer treatment ward, some who kind of hold the phys- metaphysi- uh, the metaphorical and literal purse and some who don't, that you wanna find this guy who's gonna be there with you, and I, I quote that in there. So after writing the book but before it came out, my then-fiancé, now husband, was diagnosed with a rare form of bone cancer. And so what's been happening for me is all of these things in the book that I talk about what you should look for in somebody else, I am now having to be that partner. So my husband went through three extremely invasive surgeries, including a... below-the-knee leg amputation.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:36:22

       Wow.

    8. LULogan Ury1:36:22

       Um, a knee replacement. Like really major surgeries, and I have literally been the person holding the purse, or in his case, his backpack or his fanny pack. And so what really resonates with me about your girlfriend's question is that we spend so much time thinking, "How do I choose?" But we should probably be spending as much or more time saying, "How can I be the person that gets chosen?" So anyway, just wanted to start with that preamble of why this is so relevant to me.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:36:48

       It br-

    10. LULogan Ury1:36:49

        Oh, go ahead

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:36:49

        ... it really comes down to kind of being, being there for the person.

    12. LULogan Ury1:36:52

        Yeah, so that was just one example.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:36:54

        Okay.

    14. LULogan Ury1:36:54

        But I would say how to be a better life partner. So some of it is just knowing yourself and knowing your stuff. So what keeps you in the safe zone, where you're happy, you're confident? I like this word that I invented called confident. It's when you're calm and confident.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:37:08

        Mm.

    16. LULogan Ury1:37:08

        How do you stay in your confident mode, and what are your triggers? So for some people, let's say they're anxiously attached, their trigger is when their partner's traveling and isn't in touch, they get upset and they move into the danger zone. So- What I would recommend to that person is know your triggers, know what you need, and learn how to ask for it. So really part one is going deep inside yourself and knowing yourself and doing the work. Another thing is learning how to have hard conversations. So sometimes people say to me, "Oh, I met this guy. We're getting along so well. We never fight." That's not something that I think you need to optimize for. Lots of very happy couples fight. Fighting is about being passionate. My mother-in-law, who's a therapist, says, "When couples tell me they don't fight, I also say, 'Do you not have sex?'" Because for her in her mind, those things go along. It's about having friction and working through stuff. So learning how to have hard conversations, learning how to say things like... I'm sure you're familiar with nonviolent communication, but when you-

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:38:05

        Oh, I'm listening to that at the moment. [laughs] I'm like halfway through.

    18. LULogan Ury1:38:07

        Oh, really?

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:38:07

        Yeah, love it.

    20. LULogan Ury1:38:07

        Yeah, I love NVC.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:38:09

        It's so good.

    22. LULogan Ury1:38:09

        I, I, I use it all the time. So for people who aren't familiar with it, it's a framework for expressing yourself in a way that helps you get heard and helps you kind of speak in a way that really expresses what's going on for you. So the format is when you, insert a specific thing that happened, I felt, and you have to use an emotion word. So it can't be something that's judging them like I felt left behind. It would be something like I felt sad, I felt enraged, I felt depressed, whatever it was, um, because of my need for blank. So you explain to them why this matters. So recently I had this in a work conversation where I said, "When I wasn't part of that decision-making, it made me feel sad because of my need for inclusion." And then you say, "In the future, I request that you blank," and you say a specific request that they can agree to or talk to you about. And so just learning things like that, like how to communicate, how to stand up for yourself, how to have boundaries, all of that is super important. Another one is what we talked about earlier around bids, so making bids to connect with your partner and turning towards their bids. So if you are working really hard and your partner clearly wants to talk, do you make a choice to close down your laptop and talk? Or do you say, "Not now, I'm in the middle of editing and I'm in a flow state"? Or maybe you can just say, "I'd love to hear that story. Can we talk in 20 minutes?" And so these small decisions that you're making. And I think another one that we haven't talked about that much is sex. Uh, Dan Savage has this concept of GGG. This is his secrets to good sex. So it's, um, good, which means being skillful. How can you develop your sexual skills? Giving, how can you be generous in bed? And game, how can you be willing to experiment or give your partner what they want within reason? And so I would also invest in, um, learning how your body works, how somebody else body works, asking for what they want, giving feedback, because while some very happy relationships don't have great sex lives, for many people that does matter, and how can you take your own sex life into your own hands?

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:40:19

        Ooh. Any recommended resources on that front?

    24. LULogan Ury1:40:22

        So there's a lot of great books that help women understand their bodies more. There's a lot of great women- books that focus on pleasure. There's a book called She Comes First. There's a book called Come As You Are. There's a wonderful book that is maybe on people's radars called Mating In Captivity.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:40:44

        Hmm.

    26. LULogan Ury1:40:45

        And that's about the tension that many people feel between wanting to feel comfortable and safe, but also wanting to feel adventure and excitement, and how, you know, the... Mating In Captivity is such a clever title because it's like how do you keep the sexual spark going in a long-term relationship, which is genuinely something for someone because there is part of sex and lust that has to do with novelty. When you've been with someone for a while, novelty fades, and so what can you do to really engage in that? Oh, one other resource is a friend of mine started a company called Dipsea, which is erotic audio storytelling.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:41:22

        Hmm.

    28. LULogan Ury1:41:22

        So it's not like listening to porn. It's listening to a sexy story, and why I love that is the whole idea is that you're investing in your imagination. You're closing your eyes. You're seeing this visual. You're imagining these two people meet. The tension is building up. And I do feel like we live in a very visual porn-addicted world where people have lost some of that imagination, and if you can actually remove some of the visual and focus on your imagination, your desire, explore your kinks, that is only going to help you when it comes to having sex with other people and having good sex.

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:41:59

        Amazing. Um, what a great answer. Uh-

    30. LULogan Ury1:42:02

        Are you blushing? [laughs]
19. 1:42:13 – 1:45:02

    Relationships are a life skill

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:42:13

       that understanding how to find and create great relationships is a key life skill. Do you think this life skill should be better taught to children, teenagers, young people? And if so, how?

    2. LULogan Ury1:42:23

       I think all the time about the fact that we should be teaching people more life skills in school.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:42:28

       Hmm.

    4. LULogan Ury1:42:28

       So this is everything from how to save money for the future, why you should pay off your highest interest loans first, to nutrition, exercise, maintaining good relationships. I really feel like if you look at what makes a happy, meaningful life, it is not algebra and it is not grammar.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:42:52

       Hmm.

    6. LULogan Ury1:42:52

       And those things matter, and you know, I'm a nerd. I went to Harvard. I care about all of that stuff. But when I actually think about the things that I learned in college that impact me, it's things like how to speak in a way that's persuasive, how to get your point across, how to work with others, how to be a leader. A lot of these soft skills really impact the bottom line. And so I absolutely think that we should be teaching people from middle school, high school on about healthy relationships because You can think about your relationship history as a garden.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:43:26

       Mm.

    8. LULogan Ury1:43:26

       And so throughout your life, you're planting these seeds, and then those seeds develop later. And so even if you're 20 years from a traumatic incident, there was something that happened that is now part of your garden. And so if from a younger age we can help people say, "This is how to say yes. This is how to say no. This is how to ask for consent. This is how to explore your own body. This is what emotional manipulation looks like. Um, this is the difference between secure and avoidant and anxious attachment." And so I think we would help people save a lot of heartbreak and a lot of pain, some of which is necessary, but not all of it is, by teaching them these skills earlier.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:44:07

       Mm. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm semi-trying to do on this YouTube channel, uh, or on my YouTube channel, which is that less from a perspective of I- I know what I'm talking about, and therefore I'm teaching you these life skills, and more from a perspective of I have no idea, therefore, let me talk to people who are experts on things like relationships and love and health and wealth and things like that, and let's kind of learn together and be sort of students together in this, on this journey.

    10. LULogan Ury1:44:31

        Yeah, I'm so happy that you're doing that, and it also reminds me of a course of The School of Life. And I had the opportunity to go to a School of Life conference. I was just so inspired by some of the ideas that were shared. There was an exercise that helped people have better conversations, where you got to choose the superficial or the deep, and it was just so fun to see a concept come to life through videos and exercises and, um, breakout rooms. And I was like, "Yes, this is what we need to be learning."

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:45:00

        Nice. Love it. Um,

20. 1:45:02 – 1:55:29

    What are your tips on being able to grow in a relationships together over time?

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:45:02

       final question from, uh, my girlfriend, who shall remain unnamed. Uh, in the book, you talk about how much we all change over the course of our lifetime. What are your top practical tips on being able to grow together in a relationship over time?

    2. LULogan Ury1:45:13

       There's wonderful research from Dan Gilbert of Harvard called the end of history illusion, this idea that we stop changing. And so how he experimented with this is he asked people of different ages, "How much did you change in the last 10 years? How much do you expect to change in the next 10 years?" And people inevitably said, "I changed so much from 20 to 30. I changed so much from 40 to 50."

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:45:34

       [coughs]

    4. LULogan Ury1:45:34

       "Oh, I'm already... I've become who I'm gonna be. I'm not going to change." And that is incorrect. We are all constantly changing. And so if you think about marriage and monogamy and long-term relationships, there is something a little bit irrational and ridiculous about it. I'm gonna choose a partner at 27 that I expect to find interesting and attractive and warm at age 77? Like, there... Do you know what I mean? There is something sort of irrational about it, but there are ways to build relationships that last. And so one of them is just understanding that relationships are gonna go through ups and downs. And so in the book, I talk about this idea of a relationship contract or a relationship charter, which is something that you put together with your partner, and you say, "Here's what matters to me. Here's what I'm about. Here's where I want your support. Here's how I want the relationship to be." And you can check in on it from time to time, and you should choose this date in advance. You could say, "Six months from now, let's check in," or, "Six years from now, let's check in." It helps make sure that you're staying on track.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:46:35

       Yeah.

    6. LULogan Ury1:46:36

       It also provides this space for you to say what's working and what's not. And so I think a lot of the questions that I get from people in relationships are things like, "My partner's constantly doing X. Maybe I should just accept it. How do I know when something's worth bringing up or not?" And my feeling is that resentment is so toxic. There's this saying, "Resentment is poison that you give yourself," and I really agree with that. So a be- the best way to avoid resentment is bringing things up as they happen.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:47:06

       Mm.

    8. LULogan Ury1:47:07

       So instead of saying, "Over the last six months, every single weekend, I've asked you to do the dishes and you haven't done it, and I'm gonna go crazy," it's after this happens a few times, say, "Hey, I've noticed that I am doing the dishes a lot of the time. Maybe I'm missing when you do them. I know you do a lot of other stuff around the house. But next time that you see the dishes need to be done, will you just proactively try to do them?" Or, or you know, you can use nonviolent communication, but really addressing problems as they come up, planning for the future, knowing that change is inevitable, and creating space for you and your partner to talk about what the relationship was, what it is now-

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:47:44

       Mm

    10. LULogan Ury1:47:44

        ... and where it's going.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:47:45

        Nice. Yeah, one thing that we do, which we, we kind of started from, uh, in, in inspiration from the book, is, like, a every few weeks, uh, relationship review type thing-

    12. LULogan Ury1:47:55

        Yay

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:47:55

        ... with a series of 12 questions, some of which are from the book, some of which we just made up. And it's genuinely really helpful-

    14. LULogan Ury1:48:00

        I love that

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:48:00

        ... to just, like, specifically ask questions. Like, the first few are kind of what's, what's going well, like, um, what did I do this week that made you feel loved or appreciated, and vice versa, stuff like that. And then later on it gets to, you know, is there anything that I did that kind of made you feel not great or sad or annoyed in any way? What can I do differently? And it's actually been really useful, and every time I've mentioned this to friends who are in relationships, they're like, "Damn. I thought that was a little bit weird when I first heard about it, but actually, I, I wish I could have these conversations on a somewhat regular basis with my partner," 'cause it seems to... Yeah, it, it's a sort of thing where otherwise it just tends not to come up, and stuff can-

    16. LULogan Ury1:48:33

        Yeah

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:48:33

        ... I guess, fester for a long time.

    18. LULogan Ury1:48:36

        Yeah. And honestly, I feel like that's one of the main themes that's emerging from our conversation today, is things that seem initially weird or forced or cheesy-

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:48:43

        Mm

    20. LULogan Ury1:48:44

        ... really work, and it's, like, the same way that if you are going to the gym a lot, you might write down what your exercises are and check out your gains and look back from a year ago and say, "I'm much stronger and I can do this many more reps." Why can't we apply rigor to our relationships? And so why it's great to build a habit around it is that neither you nor your girlfriend needs to say, "Sorry to nag you, but I really wanna talk about this." It's like, no, no, no, it's built in.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:49:10

        Yeah.

    22. LULogan Ury1:49:10

        And so the calendar, the date, the recurring event holds that space for you, and neither of you has to nag the other one.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:49:18

        Yeah.

    24. LULogan Ury1:49:18

        It's just like every three weeks we have this check-in.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:49:21

        Yeah. Um, how, how are things with your husband now?

    26. LULogan Ury1:49:24

        Yeah. My husband... Thank you for asking. My husband's doing really well. He wrapped up treatment a few months ago. He's rebuilding his strength. He just got back into the climbing gym-

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:49:34

        Oh, wow

    28. LULogan Ury1:49:34

        ... which was a big, um, emotional milestone for him.

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:49:38

        Mm.

    30. LULogan Ury1:49:38

        He has more energy. His beautiful red hair is coming back.
21. 1:55:29 – 2:15:01

    Instagram Q&A

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:55:29

       a sort of, I guess, a, on a somewhat related note, a few questions from, from Instagram. RNC Snapshot something, uh, are humans designed to be monogamous?

    2. LULogan Ury1:55:39

       Ooh, this is a loaded question.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:55:40

       Mm. [laughs]

    4. LULogan Ury1:55:41

       So there... [sighs] I am not an expert on this topic, but I can lead you towards some interesting resources. So there's a book called Sex At Dawn that argues that we are not meant to be monogamous. There is a biological anthropologist named Helen Fisher, who I really admire and I interviewed for the book, and she has some issues with Sex At Dawn. Um, I would encourage people to look into her work, to look into his work, to really understand kind of the evolutionary biology and evolutionary psychology perspective on this, and for people to come to their own conclusions. That being said, I feel like anyone who's trying to disrupt relationships, I really admire that. I think that we have this one-size-fits-all toaster model of relationships-

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:56:30

       Mm

    6. LULogan Ury1:56:30

       ... where if you think about a toaster, you buy it at the store, you plug it in, and at best you hope it doesn't break.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:56:37

       [laughs]

    8. LULogan Ury1:56:38

       You never expect it will get better.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:56:40

       Yeah.

    10. LULogan Ury1:56:40

        Why can't we think about relationships more like an iPhone where there's software and you can constantly be updating the software, and you can be getting more apps, and you can be deleting apps. And it's something that, going back to what we said, the end of history illusion, how can you adapt and grow as the relationship adapts and grows? And so I would say I have lots of friends that are in ethical non-monogamy relationships who float in and out of them, who have found that this is something that they love to think about and talk about.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:57:12

        Mm.

    12. LULogan Ury1:57:12

        And so I personally believe that there is a lot of space to explore different relationship structures.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:57:19

        Nice. Um, Real_Fee says, "Do you think that a person who loves you must accept you exactly as you are?"

    14. LULogan Ury1:57:27

        I think about this question a lot because one thing that people ask me is, do you need to be a whole person before you can date, or can somebody complete you? And I feel like these questions are all kind of circling the same thing, which is sh- should you be with someone who loves you for who you are, or should you be with somebody who sees the potential in you? Are you complete without them? Are you complete with them?

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:57:48

        Yeah.

    16. LULogan Ury1:57:48

        I think there's a lot of ideas in here. And so I would say as a baseline, acceptance is a huge part of relationships. Because if you get into a relationship expecting somebody will change, I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment. A few examples of this I've seen are relationships where somebody's much older and somebody's much younger, and the older person takes on a mentor capacity-

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:58:12

        Mm

    18. LULogan Ury1:58:12

        ... and is constantly trying to help that person become better. I think that creates a power imbalance that can be really hard to maintain over time, and what happens when that younger person says, "I wanna be your equal. I don't wanna be mentored anymore." That can change the dynamic. Another example I've seen is when people are looking for a project and not a partner.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:58:33

        Mm.

    20. LULogan Ury1:58:34

        So they say, "Ah, this guy is unemployed and not ambitious, but he's so talented. I'm gonna help him get his act together." It's like, don't you wanna be with someone where the two of you can run together, not where s- you're dragging somebody behind you? And so in general, I would say it's okay if somebody can see the best in you and try to help you self-actualize and become a better person. But that should come from a basis of acceptance where even if nothing changes, they'll still be very happy to be with you.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:59:02

        I am Ray Jayraput says, "I have a crush on my best friend, but I feel if I confessed it to her, it will ruin everything. Do you have any advice on this?" [laughs]

    22. LULogan Ury1:59:13

        My husband and I met when we were in college, when we were undergrads, and we know this because we became Facebook friends that day. We didn't meet again for seven years until we were both working at Google, and he came up to me by the shuttle stop and said, "Hey, didn't you use to date so and so, and didn't you go here for college?" We then spent a year being friends. He was tutoring me in R, a certain coding language, and after that I developed a crush on him. I was working with a dating coach who helped me see his potential, and finally I helped shift from friends to more by saying, "I don't have plans on Friday night. You should ask me out."

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:59:53

        [laughs] Nice.

    24. LULogan Ury1:59:53

        And so I feel like I am living proof that friends can make the best partners, and sometimes the most eligible single person around us is hiding in plain sight. We just have to identify it and then take the leap.

    25. AAAli Abdaal2:00:08

        Mm.

    26. LULogan Ury2:00:09

        That being said, there is a huge risk here. You can make someone uncomfortable. You can ruin a friendship. So a couple ways to do this. One is, I don't drink. I'm not that into drinking, but you could get drunk with someone and say, "Crazy idea. Have you ever thought about us being together?" Or, "My mom always asks, 'Why aren't you dating so and so? You'd be such a good match.' What do you think about that?" So you can kind of tiptoe into the conversation.

    27. AAAli Abdaal2:00:35

        Mm.

    28. LULogan Ury2:00:35

        Um, and then I think you should also just make it very safe for them to say, "I don't feel that way about you."

    29. AAAli Abdaal2:00:40

        Mm.

    30. LULogan Ury2:00:40

        And so I think it's worth bringing it up, but create a space where the person can turn you down without putting the friendship at risk.

Episode duration: 2:15:02