Leading Psychologist: How To Finally Overcome Stress & Anxiety - Dr Julie Smith

1. 0:00 – 6:28

   Intro

   1. JSDr. Julie Smith0:00

      Mindfulness isn't sort of an indulgent rest, you know? It's not like deep relaxation

   2. AAAli Abdaal0:04

      Yeah

   3. JSDr. Julie Smith0:05

      It's, it's almost gym for the mind, so you're building that mental muscle to be able to notice where your mind is, notice if it's helpful for you or not, and then bring it back to now

   4. AAAli Abdaal0:16

      We're speaking for the second time to Dr Julie Smith, who is a clinical psychologist and the author of the bestselling book, Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before? And her book and all of her work is absolutely fantastic and really helps break down kind of the various mental health issues that basically everyone struggles with into an understandable form with lots of actionable solutions as well

   5. JSDr. Julie Smith0:33

      I think what people are referring to is worry, right? So it's that kind of, "I'm thinking about things way too much. I'm going round and round in circles." It's almost like that kind of thought washing machine, isn't it, where you're just churning it over and over

   6. AAAli Abdaal0:44

      In this episode, we're gonna be talking about how to manage stress and anxiety. We talk a lot about overthinking, and we talk about burnout, and along the way, we explore emotions, we explore challenging our limiting beliefs, and we explore strategies for how you can think about thoughts and feelings, the ability to hold thoughts and feelings at arm's length, and how we can get more perspective on whatever problems that we're struggling with

   7. JSDr. Julie Smith1:03

      Most things that are sort of meaningful or feel like achievements involve discomfort on the way, so if you're not willing to make yourself feel vulnerable and uncomfortable, you kind of close a lot of doors to yourself, I think

   8. AAAli Abdaal1:15

      This episode is sponsored by Kajabi, and they've actually got something really valuable for all of our Deep Dive listeners. Now, if you haven't heard of Kajabi, it's basically a platform that helps creators diversify their revenue with courses and membership sites and communities and podcasts and coaching tools, so it's one of the best places for creators and entrepreneurs to build a sustainable business. We started using Kajabi earlier this year, and as soon as we started using it, we were like, "Oh my God, why haven't we been using this product for the last three years?" It's got everything you'd possibly need for running an online course or hosting an online community or building an online coaching business, and it essentially makes it really easy to run your entire online business, from payments to marketing tools to analytics. Kajabi has everything that we creators need all in one place. 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And actually, in their lifetime, Kajabi have paid out over six billion dollars to creators, that's billion with a B, and over 1,000 creators have become millionaires through products on the platform. Now, back in May 2023, I did a keynote at a Kajabi in real life, Kajabi Heroes event in Austin, Texas, and in that keynote, I talked about the exact steps that I used to grow my business from zero to over two and a half million dollars per year from course revenue alone. Now, people paid for the pretty expensive tickets to watch this keynote at the Kajabi Hero live event. But as an exclusive deal for Deep Dive listeners, Kajabi have very kindly offered to provide the recording of that keynote completely for free to anyone who listens to this podcast. So if you're interested in getting completely free access to that keynote, just head over to kajabi.com/ali. That's kajabi.com/A-L-I, and that'll be linked in the show notes and the video description as well. And you just enter your email address, and then you will get the recording of that keynote completely for free, whether or not you ever become a Kajabi customer. So thank you so much to Kajabi for sponsoring this episode. Now, this season is once again being sponsored very kindly by Trading 212. Now, people ask me all the time for investment advice, uh, because they see that I've made money and I've made videos talking about where I'm investing that money. The thing that Warren Buffett and basically everyone who's sensible in this space recommends, which is to invest in broad stock market index funds, which you can do completely for free using Trading 212. Trading 212 is a fantastic app that lets you invest in stocks and shares and funds in a commission-free fashion, and they've got a bunch of features which are really helpful, which is why I personally use Trading 212 to manage a portion of my portfolio. So firstly, they've got this great pies and auto invest feature. 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They've also recently added support for multi-currency accounts. Now, this is really helpful because, for example, if you invest in the S&P 500, which is a US-based index fund, then you won't get hit with all the various foreign exchange fees if, for example, you're investing from the UK like I do. And if you have an invest or an ISA account, then Trading 212 also gives you daily interest on your uninvested cash in pounds or euros or US dollars. So if any of that sounds up your street, then do please hit the link in the video description or in the show notes, and that will let you sign up to Trading 212. And if you use that link, you will also get a completely free share up to the value of 100 pounds, so it's literally free money, so you might as well. So thank you so much, Trading 212, for sponsoring this episode. Right. So recently, I've started to think a lot about my health, and that's why I'm very excited to say that this episode is brought to you by Huel. Now, I've been using Huel since 2017, since my fifth year of medical school. But since interviewing the founder, Julian Hearn, on this podcast in season one and hearing the origin story of Huel and how it came together, Huel has now become a staple part of my life. Now, if you haven't heard of it, Huel is essentially a meal in a bottle. So each little bottle is like a shake that has 400 calories, 22 grams of protein, and a good balance of carbs and fats and fiber, along with 26 different vitamins and minerals. And obviously, when it comes to health, there is nothing that beats the gold standard, which is a healthy, nutritional, freshly prepared meal that has, like, the perfect balance of all the things. But if you lead a particularly busy or hectic lifestyle like I sometimes do, it can be hard to make the time in our schedules to get this absolute gold standard meal, which is why I personally like using Huel for those moments of my day or of my life where I don't quite have time to cook. I don't quite have time to, like, try and go to, like, a gourmet restaurant and sort of get some kind of healthy meal. I just want something that covers my bases in terms of the macros that I need, and that's pretty tasty as well. The Huel ready-to-drink bottles come in eight different flavors. My favorite ones are banana and salted caramel, so if you find those, you should check those out. And if you're interested in trying these out, then head over to huel.com/deepdive, and with your first order you'll also get a free shaker if you want the Huel powdered version, and you'll also get a free T-shirt. These are quite nice T-shirts. They fit very well. They make the biceps look a lot bigger. So thank you so much, Huel, for sponsoring this episode. Welcome

2. 6:28 – 10:52

   What's changed since we last spoke?

   1. AAAli Abdaal6:28

      back to the podcast

   2. JSDr. Julie Smith6:29

      Thank you for having me

   3. AAAli Abdaal6:30

      It's been almost two years To the day since we recorded our first episode

   4. JSDr. Julie Smith6:34

      And you haven't aged a day, have you? [laughs]

   5. AAAli Abdaal6:35

      Oh, well, thank you so much. I think it's the retinoids. Um, but your life has changed a lot in that time.

   6. JSDr. Julie Smith6:40

      Yeah.

   7. AAAli Abdaal6:40

      I suppose.

   8. JSDr. Julie Smith6:41

      Yes and no in some ways. You know, I guess, um, you, you might or might not relate to this-

   9. AAAli Abdaal6:45

      Mm-hmm

   10. JSDr. Julie Smith6:45

       ... 'cause you're kind of living the life. Uh, um, whereas for me, when I kind of started all this, I already had children and a family and stuff. So, um, while life has changed to a degree, it's also a lot the same.

   11. AAAli Abdaal6:59

       Mm.

   12. JSDr. Julie Smith6:59

       You know? I'm still getting up, taking the kids to school-

   13. AAAli Abdaal7:03

       Mm

   14. JSDr. Julie Smith7:03

       ... trying to do some sense of work within those school hours, and then being mom again in the afternoon, and kind of, and then, you know, working into the night to try and create some sort of content-

   15. AAAli Abdaal7:12

       Yeah

   16. JSDr. Julie Smith7:12

       ... without looking too tired. [laughs]

   17. AAAli Abdaal7:14

       Yeah. [laughs]

   18. JSDr. Julie Smith7:14

       Um, so that feels a lot the same, but, um, you get to do all this really exciting, interesting stuff, like come and see people like you-

   19. AAAli Abdaal7:22

       Yeah. [laughs]

   20. JSDr. Julie Smith7:22

       ... and, like, have really fun chats, and, um, yeah, doing kind of interesting stuff. So yeah.

   21. AAAli Abdaal7:28

       So what, like, I've s- I've seen you, the, you've been on a bunch of TV shows and stuff. Like, the book has absolutely exploded in, like, sales numbers, and it seems to consistently be on the bestseller lists, and that's just, like, a level of success that is really rare in the book publishing world.

   22. JSDr. Julie Smith7:40

       Yeah.

   23. AAAli Abdaal7:40

       So how's that kind of rollercoaster been?

   24. JSDr. Julie Smith7:41

       Uh, it's been amazing. It kind of took on a life of its own. And, um, I think, I looked, how weird is this? So I looked last week and, and it was, I think it was, like, 70 weeks or something, 70-something weeks in, in the top 10. Um, and yesterday I forgot to get a paper and have a look.

   25. AAAli Abdaal8:00

       [laughs]

   26. JSDr. Julie Smith8:01

       So that is something to think of as you're, as you're about to publish your book, that-

   27. AAAli Abdaal8:05

       Yeah

   28. JSDr. Julie Smith8:05

       ... you know, like something that feels huge in the beginning and feels like it would be a marker of success or not, um, later on you kind of forget to even look-

   29. AAAli Abdaal8:13

       Mm

   30. JSDr. Julie Smith8:13

       ... because, um, not that the shine comes off things. I'm so grateful, and it's been incredible, and it still feels good to know that it's, you know, getting into the hands of people. Um, honestly, I think the most, it almost sounds a bit cheesy, but is true, the most satisfying moments I've had have been speaking to individuals who've read it and found it useful. So-
3. 10:52 – 13:48

   Why has nobody told me this before

   1. AAAli Abdaal10:52

      So what sort, what sort of stories do you hear about the book? Like, what, what, what, what kind of things do people say that make you feel, "Yes"?

   2. JSDr. Julie Smith10:59

      Um, do you know what? Because it's obviously a, a book about mental health and tips that come from therapy, it's often people who have really quite painful stories, and it's not, it's, uh, I think I annoy the staff actually from these events where people will queue up to kind of come and say hello at the end, and it's not, uh, just a, an average, "Hi, thanks for the book. Bye," kind of situation. Um, when somebody wants to, you know, has queued that long to say, "I wanna just share something with you," and it's often the deepest, darkest moments of their lives that the book might have helped them through in a very, even in a small way, um, you can't take two minutes over that. You've gotta take your time, and, and often pe- at these events people are like, "Come on, you need to get through." [laughs] And I'm like, "No, you take your time."

   3. AAAli Abdaal11:42

      Yeah.

   4. JSDr. Julie Smith11:42

      You, you know, these people have, um, been kind enough to, to, you know, buy the book and, and then to queue up to say, um, thank you. But yeah, often s- those stories are around being in a really dark place, and often not knowing where to turn as well. The, the reality is, however much I'd like everybody to have access to therapy or something like it, they don't, for lots of different reasons. Um, and, and often it's those people who haven't had access to something like that, or that it's not been enough for them. You know, if you, if you get your, I don't know, 6 or 12 allotted sessions of the NHS and then you don't have access to anything beyond that-

   5. AAAli Abdaal12:24

      Mm

   6. JSDr. Julie Smith12:24

      ... where else do you go, and what do you do? So, um, sometimes it's been in addition to something.

   7. AAAli Abdaal12:29

      Mm. So I guess that's, that's kind of surprising to me that, uh, I mean, I mean, uh, for me- Reading something in a book can just completely change my kind of belief or a decision or an action, and therefore completely change my life. And people kind of joke sometimes, you know, I'll do a lot of videos being like, "This book changed my life," because it genuinely did, 'cause it changed something-

   8. JSDr. Julie Smith12:48

      Mm

   9. AAAli Abdaal12:48

      ... so that's on something's potential. But before you said that, I, I w- I would've thought that, oh, obviously, like, a book can't replace, like, quote, real therapy. Um, but it seems like people are getting some value from reading a thing and sort of is, is it helping them reframe a thought pattern? Or like what's, what's going on-

   10. JSDr. Julie Smith13:04

       Yeah

   11. AAAli Abdaal13:04

       ... that they're finding it so helpful even if they've tried therapy before?

   12. JSDr. Julie Smith13:08

       Uh, yeah. And, and you're right, it can't replace therapy, and it's, it's really, um, an insight to some of the things you could learn in therapy that you could take on yourself if you kind of practice and reflect on those things and, you know, use journaling to kind of keep learning those skills and stuff like that. Um, but there's still a lot to therapy that is so much more than that. So, um, you know, while I'd love to give therapy to everybody [laughs] it is impossible for that to happen. Um, but yeah, it kind of ... If it can help in any small way, then it's, it's worth doing, I think.

   13. AAAli Abdaal13:44

       Nice. One of the things that I've... So I was, I was looking through this,

4. 13:48 – 25:53

   The feelings wheel (the balance between feelings and facts)

   1. AAAli Abdaal13:48

      um, the other day, filled out this, um, feeling, feeling wheel.

   2. JSDr. Julie Smith13:51

      Mm.

   3. AAAli Abdaal13:52

      Um, and me and one of our team members were doing it to be like... And I was trying to figure out, like, what are the, the, the feelings that I felt in the last week or so.

   4. JSDr. Julie Smith13:59

      Yeah.

   5. AAAli Abdaal13:59

      Um, 'cause I guess since the last time we did, we, we did the interview, one thing that I've been, like, I've been, I've been seeing a therapist as well, and trying to get more in touch with my emotions and trying to sort of feel, feel feelings in the body rather than-

   6. JSDr. Julie Smith14:14

      Yeah

   7. AAAli Abdaal14:14

      ... just sort of walking around with them in the mind. And, you know, when people would ask me, "How, how do you feel?" I'd be like, "What?" Like, that, that, th- th- that sort of question I, I, I fi- I still find very hard to compute almost. But then seeing, like, the feelings wheel, I wonder if you can just, like, describe what is the feelings wheel and, like, what could be helpful about it to-

   8. JSDr. Julie Smith14:32

      Mm

   9. AAAli Abdaal14:32

      ... to people?

   10. JSDr. Julie Smith14:33

       Well, actually, that's a really common, um, experience where, you know, some people are in touch with, more in touch with their thought processes. So you'll ask them what they feel, and they'll say, "Well, I'm thinking that," da, da, da.

   11. AAAli Abdaal14:44

       Yeah.

   12. JSDr. Julie Smith14:44

       And they're kind of reeling off the thoughts to you. Or, you know, you'll ask them what emotion is present, and they'll say, "Well, actually, I've got butterflies in my tummy," or, "I'm, I'm really tense." And so they're more in touch with the physical sensations, emotions. And it's all part of the same experience, right? And, um, I think I mention in the book about it being kind of, it's almost like weaves in a basket. They're all aspects of the same experience, but you don't necessarily experience the weaves, you experience the whole basket, and so you, you get this kind of sensation, but you don't necessarily have words to describe that.

   13. AAAli Abdaal15:15

       Mm.

   14. JSDr. Julie Smith15:15

       Um, and when we separate it out into, you know, thoughts, physical sensations, emotions, some people just don't have the vocab to, uh, give granularity to... You know, they might have happy, sad, angry, frustrated, but they might not have the vocab to kind of give that any nuance-

   15. AAAli Abdaal15:34

       Mm

   16. JSDr. Julie Smith15:34

       ... or the fine detail that the slight difference between the frustration you feel in a queue to the frustration you feel, um, I don't know, waiting for some really, um, important medical results or something like that. They- they're different feelings, right? But, but sometimes we kind of use the same words to, for different, um, scenarios or feelings because we don't have the vocab. So the feelings wheel, can't remember the lady's name now, is, is in there.

   17. AAAli Abdaal15:59

       Willcox on YouTube.

   18. JSDr. Julie Smith15:59

       Um, came up there. Yes, that's it. So, um, but it's really just a way of kind of packing in lots of different vocabulary that you can use to describe. Sometimes you just need a little prompt, right?

   19. AAAli Abdaal16:11

       Mm.

   20. JSDr. Julie Smith16:11

       You just think, "Oh, yes, that's the word I'm looking for," um, that really kind of resonates with you. 'Cause sometimes when you hear the word, you kind of have an understanding about what that feels like, but you wouldn't necessarily come up with it. But it, it's a really important skill, actually, to be able to, um, give words to feelings so that your brain can kind of help you to predict situations and, and-

   21. AAAli Abdaal16:32

       Yeah

   22. JSDr. Julie Smith16:32

       ... understand them in kind of finer detail.

   23. AAAli Abdaal16:35

       Yeah.

   24. JSDr. Julie Smith16:35

       So yeah, it's really useful.

   25. AAAli Abdaal16:36

       Yeah. So it's like, you know, r- r- in the middle we've got, like, the six, six key emotions, I guess, or like of anger, disgust, sad, happy, surprise, fear.

   26. JSDr. Julie Smith16:45

       Mm.

   27. AAAli Abdaal16:45

       And then, you know, around, around the outside, if we look at happy, for example, there's optimistic and intimate, peaceful, powerful, accepted, proud, interested, joyful, ecstatic, amused, inquisitive, important, confident, respected, fulfilled. And, you know, I was g- I was going through and g- thinking of like which of these things have I felt in the last week or so. Um, and I was sort of when I, when, when I did, I did this exercise a few months ago, I highlighted inspired, playful, hopeful, loving, fulfilled, respected, confident, important, inquisitive, amused, liberated, energetic, eager. And I was like, all of these were the happy ones. But worried wa- was a s- a sort of leads to anxious, which leads to fear, which was interesting to me. And I realized I did have periods of infuriated and irritated, which is sort of a subset of frustrated, which is a subset of angry.

   28. JSDr. Julie Smith17:35

       Mm-hmm.

   29. AAAli Abdaal17:35

       And I wouldn't have kind of no- I was like, oh, I guess I was, I, sort of anxious equals fear, and like frustrated and kind of irritated equals angry. Th- th- there was something about seeing it in the wheel that was like-

   30. JSDr. Julie Smith17:47

       Yeah, but it's-
5. 25:53 – 28:10

   What’s a physiological sigh?

   1. AAAli Abdaal25:53

      Love it. What's a physiological sigh?

   2. JSDr. Julie Smith25:55

      Uh, so that's, um, a, just a breathing technique. So you, um, you take a, a, a large in breath, and then just when you feel like your lungs are full, you take in another small breath, and then you do a long, sort of vigorous out breath.

   3. AAAli Abdaal26:08

      [sighs]

   4. JSDr. Julie Smith26:08

      So [laughs] yeah.

   5. AAAli Abdaal26:10

      Okay.

   6. JSDr. Julie Smith26:10

      So it's allowing the out breath to be longer than the in breath.

   7. AAAli Abdaal26:14

      Oh.

   8. JSDr. Julie Smith26:14

      Um, and I, I talk about lots of... It's just one of the different ways to kind of do slow breathing techniques. Um, um, but they're all in the book. Um, yeah.

   9. AAAli Abdaal26:23

      What does it do? Like, what's the, the theory behind it?

   10. JSDr. Julie Smith26:25

       So the idea is you're, not only are you kind of slowing your heart rate down, but when you take that l- extra in breath, that you're opening up the little sacks in your lungs a little bit wider. So you're actually getting rid of carbon di- carbon dioxide more efficiently than you would be.

   11. AAAli Abdaal26:38

       Mm.

   12. JSDr. Julie Smith26:39

       Um, so it helps you to sort of calm the system. And honestly, it, you know, those really small things, no one can even see you're doing it, but it makes a, enough of a difference that you bring anxie- so you're not trying to eradicate anxiety ever.

   13. AAAli Abdaal26:52

       Yeah.

   14. JSDr. Julie Smith26:53

       You're just trying to bring it down to a level of intensity that you can really focus on what you're doing and perform at your best. So-

   15. AAAli Abdaal26:59

       Yeah

   16. JSDr. Julie Smith27:00

       ... I wouldn't wanna be totally relaxed when I'm, you know, on live TV. I wanna be alert, and I wanna be thinking well-

   17. AAAli Abdaal27:05

       Yeah

   18. JSDr. Julie Smith27:05

       ... and performing at my best, but I also don't wanna be completely overwhelmed and catastrophizing.

   19. AAAli Abdaal27:10

       Mm.

   20. JSDr. Julie Smith27:10

       I wanna be kind of in the zone. So it just helps to, you know, only a few breaths, it helps you to really kinda get in the zone and then do what you do.

   21. AAAli Abdaal27:17

       And it sounds so, a- in, in that moment, y- I guess you could tell yourself the story that, "Oh my God, I'm feeling some level of anxiety on live TV. I'm not cut out for this. Why did I do this?"

   22. JSDr. Julie Smith27:25

       Mm-hmm.

   23. AAAli Abdaal27:26

       Like, "Ugh-

   24. JSDr. Julie Smith27:27

       Yeah

   25. AAAli Abdaal27:27

       ... this is not for me." But I guess you're like, "No, it's fine to, to feel-

   26. JSDr. Julie Smith27:30

       Yeah

   27. AAAli Abdaal27:30

       ... some level of anxiety as long as it's not hindering my performance too much. [laughs]

   28. JSDr. Julie Smith27:33

       Yeah, and that's what the mindfulness stuff does really is it changes your relationship with all emotional experience because you're accepting all of it, the good and the bad, or the, you know, comfortable and uncomfortable, should I say, um, as just a part of being human and as part of the human experience. So you're kind of allowing that to be there. So, okay, when I do this, I notice those sensations. My heart pounds just beforehand and, you know, I'm tense and, and I associate that with anxiety and excitement. I'm gonna hold that, and I'm gonna go for it. So it's the sort of, um, long-winded way of saying feel the fear and do it anyway. [laughs]

   29. AAAli Abdaal28:08

       Nice. Um, one question on this front.

6. 28:10 – 32:48

   Dealing with other people's emotions

   1. AAAli Abdaal28:10

      Um, so one thing that I struggle with in my relationship, for example, is that if, um... Let's call her Jane. If, if Jane is upset with something that I have con- I have done in some kind of way-

   2. JSDr. Julie Smith28:26

      Yeah

   3. AAAli Abdaal28:26

      ... then I'll feel this strong thing of like, oh, no, I, I n- I need to change my behavior. I need to sort of do something differently to make her not feel upset. And whenever I have that thought, I'm always like, ugh, I feel, it feels kind of weird because it's like, you know, I can't make anyone not upset, and actually this thing that I'm, I have done is, like, something that I actually do value, and maybe it's just okay that she's upset. And I was talking to my sister-in-law about this and, you know, in, in the context of, you know, she was saying w- when her husband leaves on a business trip, she, she feels sad. And I was like, "Oh," but then, like, you know, "Why is he going on these business trips?" And she was like, "Oh, well, I mean, I, I, it, it's, it's okay that I feel sad. Of course I'm gonna feel sad, but, like, that doesn't mean he shouldn't go."

   4. JSDr. Julie Smith29:07

      Yeah.

   5. AAAli Abdaal29:07

      And that was kind of like a weird thing for me because in my mind it's like managing someone else's emotions sort of feels like my job, but whenever I think that, I'm like, no, that's just n- not the way. Do, do you get what I mean?

   6. JSDr. Julie Smith29:18

      Yeah. A- and, and that makes relationships then feel difficult if you have to make sure they feel a certain way all of the time because it's impossible to control that, right?

   7. AAAli Abdaal29:29

      Mm.

   8. JSDr. Julie Smith29:29

      Because there'll be certain emotions that come up, not because of you, but because of something else.

   9. AAAli Abdaal29:34

      Mm.

   10. JSDr. Julie Smith29:34

       Um, and then it all feels very uncontrollable. Um, a- and, and, and it's a sign, isn't it, that if you, if you feel uncomfortable with their distress, in some ways that's a sign of how much you care for someone.

   11. AAAli Abdaal29:47

       Mm.

   12. JSDr. Julie Smith29:47

       So it's, it's okay to kind of hold that without acting on it or just to communicate. You know, whenever I see you upset, I have that urge to try my best to make it all go away. Um, but sometimes that isn't even what's necessary, is it? It's that, you know, uh, people often get that when someone's crying.

   13. AAAli Abdaal30:05

       Yeah.

   14. JSDr. Julie Smith30:05

       So, you know, you get that sort of, " [gasps] I've got to make this go away," and, and pe- that's when people say things that aren't necessarily helpful because, um, they might say something that kind of minimizes the distress or the problem and, um, and what they're trying to do is immediately get the person to stop crying because their distress feels uncomfortable to us.

   15. AAAli Abdaal30:21

       Mm.

   16. JSDr. Julie Smith30:22

       Um, and actually what they need to do is feel validated. Yeah, this is painful. Wow, this is okay. You know, I've got your back. I- I'm here for you. W- um, we'll walk through this together, and then the emotion will come down naturally anyway. So when you're both willing to contain that and sit with that, you know, if you go to therapy, for example, and you feel lots of raw emotion and the tears are coming and, uh, a therapist won't try to stop you from crying- They will sit with you through that and help you to contain that safely so that it takes its natural course. And, and at some point, um, that will tail off and, and you'll feel something different, and then you're onto the next experience.

   17. AAAli Abdaal31:06

       Yeah. I think whenever I see someone crying, I always feel like, "Uh-oh, this is a problem that I must solve."

   18. JSDr. Julie Smith31:10

       Yeah.

   19. AAAli Abdaal31:11

       And it's like the natural urge to be like, "Uh-

   20. JSDr. Julie Smith31:13

       Yeah

   21. AAAli Abdaal31:13

       ... let me do something." [laughs]

   22. JSDr. Julie Smith31:14

       Yeah. And it's interesting, isn't it? Sometimes you will often, uh, even cause it because, you know, if someone's really tense and anxious or if they've had a terrible day-

   23. AAAli Abdaal31:21

       Mm

   24. JSDr. Julie Smith31:21

       ... and then you go in for a hug and then whoosh, it all comes out.

   25. AAAli Abdaal31:24

       Yeah.

   26. JSDr. Julie Smith31:24

       And, and often that's because that person's been holding onto lots of stuff the whole time, and the minute someone shows compassion and care, they feel safe enough to sort of release whatever emotion is there. And so that'll c- can sometimes come out in tears. And then you think, "Oh no, I've caused it. Maybe I shouldn't, you know, go near you or w- what's going on?" And then you start sort of questioning yourself about what you should do, and that's often based around the want to control the, the emotions of the situation-

   27. AAAli Abdaal31:50

       Yeah

   28. JSDr. Julie Smith31:50

       ... rather than allowing whatever comes up to just be-

   29. AAAli Abdaal31:53

       Mm

   30. JSDr. Julie Smith31:53

       ... and then communicating that, "Do you know what? W- whatever we feel, we're just gonna be curious about that, and we're gonna..." You know, um, that's another thing that comes up a lot in therapy, um, is turning from judgment to curiosity. So rather than thinking a certain emotion needs, a, a certain emotion needs to be squashed or pushed away-
7. 32:48 – 37:01

   Should you go to bed angry?

   1. AAAli Abdaal32:48

      What are your thoughts on the idea of, uh, I, I've kind of heard two perspectives on this, that if you're, if it's nighttime and you're having an argument with your partner, one school of thought is ne- never go to bed angry and, like, hash it out, and another school of thought is, no, no, no, absolutely go to bed angry because you'll, you'll get over it by the morning. [laughs]

   2. JSDr. Julie Smith33:03

      [laughs] Yes. Yeah.

   3. AAAli Abdaal33:04

      Yeah.

   4. JSDr. Julie Smith33:04

      I, yeah, I'm ta- like well I, I can see both sides to it, but, um, y- I would totally sit on the second one really because you, sometimes when you're in a really high emotion state, you're not in a position to resolve anything because you're both so angry with each other or upset with each other or... And so the words coming out your mouth aren't helpful-

   5. AAAli Abdaal33:23

      Mm

   6. JSDr. Julie Smith33:23

      ... um, but could cause more damage.

   7. AAAli Abdaal33:24

      Mm.

   8. JSDr. Julie Smith33:25

      And so it's okay to take time out and go and sort of calm the system, get back to somewhere close to, um, a calm state. Um, but sleep does that for us, right? You know, you can go to bed feeling something really uncomfortable or intense, and then you can wake up the next day and think, "Oh, um, I feel fine now."

   9. AAAli Abdaal33:46

      Yeah.

   10. JSDr. Julie Smith33:46

       Um, and sometimes you don't. But yeah, I would say if, if taking a break from each other or having a sleep is what is necessary to help bring that emotion down so that you can talk to your partner with more respect as you resolve something, then do it.

   11. AAAli Abdaal34:00

       Nice.

   12. JSDr. Julie Smith34:01

       [laughs]

   13. AAAli Abdaal34:01

       Yeah. A fr- a fr- a friend of mine mentioned this to me. It was, it was a couple months ago, and I was... You know, he's, he's been married for a few years, so I, I kind of asked him, you know, "What's the, wh- what's the secret?" And he said, "Oh man, the one secret is that you set a ground rule that like after 10:00 PM you're not gonna have any arguments." [laughs]

   14. JSDr. Julie Smith34:17

       [laughs]

   15. AAAli Abdaal34:18

       'Cause he was like, yeah, his, his wife would like, they'd be in bed and the wife would then bring something up, like a grievance or something.

   16. JSDr. Julie Smith34:22

       [laughs]

   17. AAAli Abdaal34:23

       And in the early days of the relationship he would like respond and they'd end up, uh, up until like 3:00 in the morning trying to hash it out and not get enough sleep and then feel a bit miserable. And he was just like, "You know what? If there's something to be talked about, it can be done before 10:00 PM."

   18. JSDr. Julie Smith34:34

       Yeah.

   19. AAAli Abdaal34:34

       And he said that just, that one change made such an enormous difference to their relationship.

   20. JSDr. Julie Smith34:37

       Yeah. And, and 'cause then also if you, you know, start arguing into the night and then you're both also sleep deprived for the next day, so it's unlikely to be resolved for a few days until you're both, um, kind of in your right mind again. So yeah, I'd say that's a pretty good rule.

   21. AAAli Abdaal34:51

       Mm-hmm. Do you and your husband have any sort of relationship rituals like a weekly date night or like a weekly discussion meeting? Or yeah, I know, I know some people do that sort of stuff.

   22. JSDr. Julie Smith34:59

       Yeah. No. And, and do you know what? We c- we're so busy, um, we used to kind of, you know, before we had children there were lots of holidays and going out and socializing and all those things. Um, but now we genuinely, you know, love spending time as a family, and when we're not doing that we work together anyway. So well he, he still works, um, d- during the day at his own thing, and then we make the content together in the evening. So we spend time together, and we're being creative together. Sometimes that's fun.

   23. AAAli Abdaal35:32

       Yeah.

   24. JSDr. Julie Smith35:32

       Sometimes it's not so f- you know, sometimes there's just a work element to it-

   25. AAAli Abdaal35:35

       Yeah

   26. JSDr. Julie Smith35:35

       ... and you're grinding and, and I'm kind of, you know, we're trying to film and I'm sat there kind of swearing at myself thinking-

   27. AAAli Abdaal35:41

       Yeah

   28. JSDr. Julie Smith35:41

       ... "I just don't wanna be doing this right now." [laughs]

   29. AAAli Abdaal35:43

       Yeah.

   30. JSDr. Julie Smith35:43

       And he's trying to encourage me, "Come on," um, or the other way around. Um, so no, I don't... Do we have any rituals? I don't know. Um, not sort of really salient ones that I can say, "That is our ritual."
8. 37:01 – 45:41

   What is overthinking and how do we manage it?

   1. AAAli Abdaal37:01

      we asked our viewers and listeners of the podcast through our Telegram community, which will be linked down below in the video notes, video description, show notes, um, what they wanted to hear from you. And, like, loads of people were asking questions around how to manage stress and how to manage overthinking.

   2. JSDr. Julie Smith37:14

      Okay.

   3. AAAli Abdaal37:14

      So I wonder if we can kind of dive into those. Um, so one of our listeners, Amar, asked, um, "Do you have any practical tools for dealing with overthinking?"

   4. JSDr. Julie Smith37:23

      Mm.

   5. AAAli Abdaal37:23

      So I guess, like, what is overthinking and, like, how do we, how do we manage it?

   6. JSDr. Julie Smith37:26

      Yeah, I guess overthinking is that term, isn't it, that's sort of, um, been used a lot online that I probably hadn't really sort of used clinically before that. Um, and I think what people are referring to is worry, right? So it's that kind of, I'm thinking about things way too much. I'm going round and round in circles. It's almost like that kind of thought washing machine, isn't it, where you're just churning it over and over.

   7. AAAli Abdaal37:47

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JSDr. Julie Smith37:48

      And, and sometimes, you know, if that's about the past, that would be- we'd call that rumination. So, you know, you're just churning over something again and again, but in a really non-productive way-

   9. AAAli Abdaal37:59

      Yeah

   10. JSDr. Julie Smith37:59

       ... that's not gonna come to any kind of resolution. And actually, uh, rumination is a key predictor of, uh, the sort of maintenance of depression-

   11. AAAli Abdaal38:07

       Oh

   12. JSDr. Julie Smith38:07

       ... or the, or relapse of depression as well. So y- that rumination of going over things in the past tends to get you down. Um, whereas worry or overthinking about the future and that kind of churning over, often it's catastrophizing thoughts, that kind of thing, the worst case scenarios, what am I gonna do if, what am I gonna do when, um, that leads to anxiety, right? Because we're starting to think of, um, the future, not necessarily in a positive way, but in a, um, the worst case scenario way and predicting that I'm not gonna, not gonna cope way. So then you get more and more anxious. And when you're anxious, then y- it creates this sense of, um, those things demand your attention even more, so you feel like you need to spend more time thinking about these things because you're convincing yourself that you're gonna come to a resolution. But when you're worrying, you're not really answering the catastrophizing questions. So the what ifs, you know, you kind of repeat them in your mind. What if this happens? What if that happens? Um, and, and you'll recognize that through, if you're having it as a conversation. So if you're, you know, with your partner, for example, and you're saying, "Well, we can't do that because what if that?" And then they might come up with a resolute, "Well, then we'll sort it out this way." "Oh, but, but what if that?"

   13. AAAli Abdaal39:21

       Yeah.

   14. JSDr. Julie Smith39:21

       "And what if that?" And, and so you realize that no matter how much the other person tries to reassure you, you will find another catastrophizing thought to come up with. Um, so, you know, you've got those two kind of areas of, I think, what people are referring to as overthinking.

   15. AAAli Abdaal39:34

       Yeah. Nice. Now you-

   16. JSDr. Julie Smith39:36

       Those two different emotions.

   17. AAAli Abdaal39:37

       So I had a, I had a bit of a, a moment when you said, I think, I think the first thing you said was that overthinking is basically just worrying. And I was like, "Oh, it is."

   18. JSDr. Julie Smith39:44

       Yeah.

   19. AAAli Abdaal39:44

       'Cause I think, I, I guess overthinking is a word a lot of people use, but they wouldn't necessarily use the word I'm worried.

   20. JSDr. Julie Smith39:49

       No.

   21. AAAli Abdaal39:49

       That actually I'm worried is like, you know, l- let's call a spade a spade.

   22. JSDr. Julie Smith39:52

       Yeah. I-

   23. AAAli Abdaal39:52

       So, so worry about the past leads to, well, rumination on the path to depression. Worry about the future leads to anxiety because of the fear of bad things happening.

   24. JSDr. Julie Smith40:01

       Yeah.

   25. AAAli Abdaal40:02

       Uh, uh, n- neither option is anything you, you can really do anything about. [laughs] So, like-

   26. JSDr. Julie Smith40:06

       Yeah

   27. AAAli Abdaal40:06

       ... it's a somewhat unproductive-

   28. JSDr. Julie Smith40:08

       Yeah

   29. AAAli Abdaal40:08

       ... cycle of thinking.

   30. JSDr. Julie Smith40:09

       And, and again, that's where living in a mindful way and using mindfulness skills helps you to stay in the present because, uh, in the very present, if all we have is right now, then there's much less to fear and feel depressed about in the h- in the here and now for, for-
9. 45:41 – 47:50

   Being in the right state for decision making

   1. AAAli Abdaal45:41

      I also r- I also recognized that, you know, so it was a, a, a, d- a, a Tony Robbins concert that, well-

   2. JSDr. Julie Smith45:46

      Okay

   3. AAAli Abdaal45:47

      ... I say, I say concert. It was sort of a cross between a concert and a, and a seminar last week. And one of the things he often talks about is being in the right, like, state to make decisions about certain things. And I was, I, I was kind of thinking to my- to myself, "Okay, I'm overthinking all this stuff about the business and about life. But right now it's the middle of the night. It's kind of hot. Like, I'm sleep-deprived. This is just not a good time to worry about this stuff."

   4. JSDr. Julie Smith46:10

      Yeah.

   5. AAAli Abdaal46:10

      And so I was [laughs] I was trying to kind of draw my attention to my breath and things like that, and then I would sort of count, like, "Okay, I got to, I got up to, like, seven," and then I would just forget because the mind would wander again, and I would bring it back to the breath to be like, "Nope, it's all good."

   6. JSDr. Julie Smith46:23

      Yeah.

   7. AAAli Abdaal46:23

      And after a few cycles of this, I kind of just had a moment of serenity where I was like, "It's fine. Everything is fine as it is. Like, life's good."

   8. JSDr. Julie Smith46:31

      Yeah.

   9. AAAli Abdaal46:32

      Um, and [laughs] I fi- I, I find that whenever I have these sorts of moments, I almost, like, laugh to myself because the conclusion is always, everything is actually just fine as it is. Like- [laughs]

   10. JSDr. Julie Smith46:43

       Yeah.

   11. AAAli Abdaal46:43

       I don't need to worry so much about this stuff. If, if I could do something about it, I'll do something about it. Cool action point. Let's talk to this person about this thing on Wednesday when I meet them, like, whatever.

   12. JSDr. Julie Smith46:51

       Yeah.

   13. AAAli Abdaal46:51

       Um, yeah.

   14. JSDr. Julie Smith46:51

       And yet it's so tempting, isn't it, when we start to, the, you know, the mind wants to be busy, and, you know, you kind of, it's so tempting to go down that route and try and solve one of life's problems while it would be most helpful for you to kind of go off to sleep, isn't it?

   15. AAAli Abdaal47:04

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JSDr. Julie Smith47:04

       And, um, so I actually use mindfulness a lot, um, in that same way that if, if I sort of get into bed and my mind is busy on things, um, I'll just focus on, like, the physical sensation of being in the bed and the kind of, you know, what's the texture of the sheets? What's the temperature of the room? Or like that kind of thing that just kind of brings you back and, um, kind of says, "Yeah, not now, worries. I'm, I'm doing this."

   17. AAAli Abdaal47:26

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JSDr. Julie Smith47:27

       And, and I find that really helpful.

   19. AAAli Abdaal47:28

       Nice. Um, one of the things you talk about in the book is to use a distancing language. What, what is, what is that?

   20. JSDr. Julie Smith47:35

       Uh, yeah, so, um, uh, something from acceptance and commitment therapy, so ACT, uh, or ACT therapy, um, uh, we talk about so things like thought diffusion and, and getting this kind of separation from, um, thoughts and emotions

10. 47:50 – 51:49

    What’s “distancing language?”

    1. JSDr. Julie Smith47:50

       really. So, um, there are lots of different techniques you can use, but it, I, I use the kind of, um, example of, if you remember the Jim Carrey movie The Mask?

    2. AAAli Abdaal48:00

       Mm.

    3. JSDr. Julie Smith48:01

       You probably can't. You're too young, aren't you? But it's pretty-

    4. AAAli Abdaal48:02

       I think so. I saw it on TV one time. Yeah.

    5. JSDr. Julie Smith48:04

       [laughs] Um, actually, I, I was talking about it, uh, recently at, um, I think it was the Happy Place Festival, and I, I said, "Oh, you, does anyone remember the video The Mask?" And everyone's like, "What's a video?" [laughs] "Who's this old lady talking to us?" Um, so yeah, in The Mask, so, uh, Jim Carrey finds this kind of, like, nothing looking wood, old wooden mask, and it looks like nothing, but when he puts it on and he holds it close to his face, it kind of grasps him round the back of the head, and then it controls everything he does, everything he says, thinks, everything. Um, but again, if he takes it off and he just holds it at arm's length, he gets to see the mask for what it is, which is just a mask, and it then has no control over how he feels or what he does, and it's a bit like that with thought diffusion. It's, it's taking-- So we talked about thoughts are not facts. Holding a thought as a fact or thinking because I've thought that, it must be true, is a bit like putting it here. It's you're kind of, you're blinkering yourself from seeing any other perspective.

    6. AAAli Abdaal49:07

       Yeah.

    7. JSDr. Julie Smith49:07

       So all you're doing is taking a thought from kind of here to here, and you're going, "Okay, now I can see it for what it is, which is one possible perspective." And then you've got all this space to kind of consider other things as well. So sometimes, uh, like a really simple technique might be, okay, if you're, um, lots of those thoughts are causing you distress, um, writing them down, but not only writing them down, starting that sentence with, "I'm having thoughts that," or, "I'm noticing the thought that." So you're immediately kind of priming your mind for this is a thought.

    8. AAAli Abdaal49:43

       Mm.

    9. JSDr. Julie Smith49:43

       This is not, I'm not writing a fact. I'm writing a thought or a perspective, or the story I'm telling myself is, or the narrative currently is. Those kind of beginnings of sentences can just help to give you that extra arm's length so that you can see that thought for what it is. And, and just something as simple as that can take some of the power out of it. Uh, or some people with, um, different anxiety disorders like OCD will, um, kind of, uh, give a name to a certain type of thoughts or, you know, uh, if there are lots of anxious thoughts, they might give that person a name. You know, that, that, that... As if there's a sort of person with having those thoughts and, you know, thank you, Elgar or whatever it is for, you know, thank you for bringing those thoughts. And, and all you're doing when you just give little comments like that is you're just taking a step back from it. So you're getting a bird's eye view on it, um, so that it's not here blocking your view of everything else.

    10. AAAli Abdaal50:36

        Nice. That's so good. Yeah, I think that's... I, I guess that's one of the benefits of journaling-

    11. JSDr. Julie Smith50:43

        Mm. Yeah

    12. AAAli Abdaal50:43

        ... that you write the things down, and I often find myself saying, and you know, like my internal narrative is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

    13. JSDr. Julie Smith50:51

        Yeah.

    14. AAAli Abdaal50:51

        And I'll... Once it's down on paper or on the iPad, I'll be like, "Okay, well, that's just clearly absurd because that's just not true." [laughs]

    15. JSDr. Julie Smith50:56

        Yeah.

    16. AAAli Abdaal50:57

        But when it's in, in the mind-

    17. JSDr. Julie Smith50:59

        Yeah

    18. AAAli Abdaal50:59

        ... it's so easy for the mind to convince itself that that's true. Whereas written down on paper, it's like, okay, well, clearly this is just BS.

    19. JSDr. Julie Smith51:04

        Yeah. Right. And, and some people will kind of have a thought and think, "I just, I don't, can't even write it down. It just feels too odd," you know. It feels too, um, embarrassing or, you know, exposing to write it down. And sometimes that's because we're buying into it more than we perhaps could or should.

    20. AAAli Abdaal51:20

        Mm.

    21. JSDr. Julie Smith51:21

        And so yeah, the process of writing it down and the feeling of exposure that comes with writing it down, even if no one else can see it, is you kind of almost getting honest with yourself about, let's kind of put this to the test and see if, um, see if I can kind of still feel the same way about it one- once I've written it down on a piece of paper.

    22. AAAli Abdaal51:38

        Have you, have you come across The Work by Byron Katie?

    23. JSDr. Julie Smith51:41

        Uh, yes. Yeah.

    24. AAAli Abdaal51:43

        Yeah. I started like that was-

    25. JSDr. Julie Smith51:44

        Long time ago

    26. AAAli Abdaal51:44

        ... that was one of the books I started reading last night when I couldn't sleep. [laughs]

    27. JSDr. Julie Smith51:47

        [laughs]

    28. AAAli Abdaal51:47

        'Cause I had this Tony Robbins event and he was

11. 51:49 – 59:14

    Challenging your thoughts and beliefs

    1. AAAli Abdaal51:49

       kind of talking about this method. Um, I found, I just found it really helpful. It's like these, um, these four questions when you're having a thought or, or some kind of limiting belief.

    2. JSDr. Julie Smith51:57

       Mm.

    3. AAAli Abdaal51:58

       Um, question number one, is this true? [laughs]

    4. JSDr. Julie Smith52:01

       Yeah.

    5. AAAli Abdaal52:01

       And then just asking yourself yes or no, like, you know, the, the body will have a response to that.

    6. JSDr. Julie Smith52:05

       Yeah.

    7. AAAli Abdaal52:06

       Question number two, is this really true? It's like, huh, actually, perhaps it's not. And the way that, that, that, you know, he was talking about at this, this business conference was a lot of us will, um, have these limiting beliefs about what we can or we can't do, and we'll say, you know, in my case, that, oh, you know, I shouldn't, I can't grow my business because if I do, it'll mean my lifestyle is gonna, is, is gonna become more stressful.

    8. JSDr. Julie Smith52:29

       Yeah.

    9. AAAli Abdaal52:29

       Like, is that true? Is that really true? It's like, have I actually examined all the evidence and, like, landed at this conclusion that growing a business always means that the owner becomes more stressed? And just writing it down and asking those questions. Um, and then, you know, the next, like question three would be something like, how does it make you feel to identify with that thought? And then question four is, how would it make you feel if you just chose not to identify with that thought? [laughs]

    10. JSDr. Julie Smith52:53

        Yeah.

    11. AAAli Abdaal52:53

        And then you do the, like a, a turnaround, I think she calls it, where you sort of write down the exact opposite of which, which in this context would be the more, the more my business grows, the less stressed I'll be.

    12. JSDr. Julie Smith53:04

        Yeah.

    13. AAAli Abdaal53:05

        And you find reasons to support that. And it's just like a very simple step-by-step process where I was like, damn, this is actually bloody helpful. [laughs]

    14. JSDr. Julie Smith53:10

        [laughs] Yeah. And, and do you know, it's a really, it's a sort of interesting, um, a, I say a variation of, it's kind of CBT in some ways. That CBT will look at, okay, um, thought challenging. So it's, you know, um, and that would be one way to do a thought challenge is just asking yourself, is it true? Often when we're really stuck with a thought and it's causing us a lot of distress, it's because we genuinely buy into it. And so, you know, once you get to the point of therapy and you ask someone, "Is that thought true?" They will say yes, and, and they do believe in it, and that's why they're in such pain. And so sometimes it's not enough.

    15. AAAli Abdaal53:45

        Mm.

    16. JSDr. Julie Smith53:45

        And, and that's when you can go into the sort of, um, challenging that thought. So, uh, looking at the evidence, so is it true? Okay, let's, let's just play around with the idea of taking it to court and, and what, where is the evidence, not only in my opinions, but what evidence would stand up in court-

    17. AAAli Abdaal54:06

        Nice

    18. JSDr. Julie Smith54:07

        ... to say this is true?

    19. AAAli Abdaal54:08

        Yeah.

    20. JSDr. Julie Smith54:08

        And then looking at the other side, where's the evidence that it might not be true or might not be the best reflection of reality right now? And you can go into doing all that kind of thought challenging stuff, looking at both sides, getting really honest with yourself about it, and you can get help with like, um, from friends and stuff to do that if you're not in therapy. Um, 'cause sometimes it's really difficult when you're really stuck on something to even consider other options.

    21. AAAli Abdaal54:34

        Yeah.

    22. JSDr. Julie Smith54:34

        And that's why you're stuck, right? 'Cause it's not easy. Um, but for some people that's not the best way because it can set up an argument in your mind, and then you're just ruminating on, you know... So you can kind of try and go down for the, you know, the, all the evidence that this thought isn't true, and then your mind just keeps coming back with, yeah, but, yeah, but this is the reason it's true, this is the reason it's true. And, and you end up almost in more distress because you're just-

    23. AAAli Abdaal55:01

        Yeah

    24. JSDr. Julie Smith55:01

        ... going back and forth with this sort of internal argument. Um, and that's when the ACT stuff is super helpful, so the diffusion stuff. So it's like, actually, do you know what? True or not, I'm just gonna push this thought to there.

    25. AAAli Abdaal55:13

        Yep.

    26. JSDr. Julie Smith55:14

        And I'm just gonna see it for what it is for a minute, and I'm gonna try and hold it lightly. And I know that that's one option. I can go down that and I can, I can go down that route, and I can kind of fuse with that thought, and I can spend time with it. Where is that gonna take me? Or, and what are my other options? And, and sort of holding those options lightly, um, which is in some ways a bit more mindful. So rather than getting into the nitty-gritty and, and trying to find the truth, it's acknowledging that often a truth is a mixture of different opinions-

    27. AAAli Abdaal55:49

        Yeah

    28. JSDr. Julie Smith55:49

        ... and not one. And you're, you know, sometimes you're never gonna find the truth.

    29. AAAli Abdaal55:53

        Yeah.

    30. JSDr. Julie Smith55:53

        Um, and being okay with that, kind of holding that lightly and moving on to the next experience.
12. 59:14 – 1:02:29

    Would this stand up in court?

    1. AAAli Abdaal59:14

       like the thing about, like, would this stand up in court? Again, I've been blessed not to really suffer with any mental health problems. But for exa- for example, if someone is highly anxious or highly depressed, and a depressed person might, might think life will never be good again, and obviously that won't stand up in court. And I would like the, the... I f- I f- I've got a few friends who have experienced that, and I go, I was, kind of asked them about this, that, like, in, in that moment, like, you obviously know it's not true, um, that, like, life will be better. And they were like, "Yeah, you kind of know intellectually that it's not true. But, like, you feel emotionally and in your soul that, like, of course it's true."

    2. JSDr. Julie Smith59:50

       Mm.

    3. AAAli Abdaal59:51

       Um, so I guess to what extent does challenging thoughts in court help with the more extreme forms of, of mental health problems?

    4. JSDr. Julie Smith59:58

       Yeah. And that's where it takes, um, more time and effort, like you were saying about the, the, um, the sort of questions from the book that you'd read. And, um, those can be really, really helpful with in sort of in a, a light way. But wh- when someone is really depressed, um, you often spend, you can spend a lot of time on something like thought challenging or... And, and, and working out whether that's helpful or whether you move to something like diffusion and kind of just separating from it and allowing it to be there because, you know, that's the, that's the bind in depression, is that it's not that this thought appeared out of nowhere and then made you feel depressed. The two are occurring at the same time. So when you're, when you're depressed, you're more likely to have those thoughts.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:00:42

       Yeah.

    6. JSDr. Julie Smith1:00:43

       And you're more likely to believe in them. And, a- and, and when you're having those thoughts, you're then more likely to feel more depressed, and so it's this kind of-

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:00:52

       Yeah

    8. JSDr. Julie Smith1:00:52

       ... cycle, this downward spiral that you're kind of stuck in. Um, and so, you know, therapy is often a, a process of j- chipping away, chipping away, chipping away. There isn't this sort of one turning point where you go, "Oh, okay. Yeah-

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:01:07

       Yeah

    10. JSDr. Julie Smith1:01:07

        ... the future could be fine," and, and then everything's okay. It's a sort of a, well, you know, uh, you sort of often will do a, um, a thought challenging task, and you'll rate at the beginning. So you'll get your thought that's causing distress, and you'll m- rate, maybe give it a percentage on how much you really believe that thought to be true and how much you buy into it, and it might be 100%. Uh, it's not unusual for it to be 100%. Um, and then you'll do all your different exercises kind of trying to challenge it

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:01:32

        Mm

    12. JSDr. Julie Smith1:01:32

        And you're not trying to turn it on its head as much as loosen it off, you know? Just holding it lightly. So, um, you might then after you've done some of those thought challenging exercises, rate it again for how much you believe in it, and that might go from 1% to 60 or 70%, and that's success, right? So that's just slightly loosening. So you're allowing yourself to consider that there could be other ways of looking at this, and that would be, okay, movement, progress. And then, you know, move on to the next thing and, and that's why these things take time, right? That's why no one can rush in and convince someone not to be depressed because s- there's lots of different layers and e- everything's binding it together, um, from different an- avenues and different kind of angles. Um, so you have to kind of pick it apart like those weaves in the basket.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:02:22

        Nice. I guess one, one of the things that came up when we were doing, um, uh, you know, ask- asking the audience as well about, about the podcast

13. 1:02:29 – 1:04:59

    What is positive thinking?

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:02:29

       is this, the, the idea of positive thinking, where, like, posit- like, it's, it sounds like some of the stuff, you know, s- we were talking about reframing earlier.

    2. JSDr. Julie Smith1:02:38

       Yeah

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:02:38

       That sounds like it could be, quote, positive. Like, w- what is positive thinking? 'Cause i- if it, that, that also feels like one of these buzzwordy thingies that als- feels to be missing some kind of nuance.

    4. JSDr. Julie Smith1:02:46

       Mm. And that's where I kind of, um, uh ... I, I, I guess I b- b- about it a lot 'cause I, I put it in the book about the sort of, uh, positive vibes only trend online and the kind of, you know, um, don't allow yourself to think any negative thoughts and that kind of thing. And, um, I don't really buy into that side of things because in order to do that successfully, you have to really deny your own human brain and, you know. Because if we think of it as, as in your brain is set up to kind of, you know, help you survive, but also to help you generate meaning and understand your environment and what's going on around you-

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:03:25

       Yeah

    6. JSDr. Julie Smith1:03:25

       ... and what demands are placed on you. And if your brain is doing that well, then a fair degree of the time it's gonna come up with some sort of negative ideas about what's going on, right? 'Cause the world isn't, you know, Barbie land or whatever. Um, and so if you then, if, if you set yourself up with this idea of I'm not gonna have any negative thoughts, I'm gonna be so positive, and then you inevitably have a, a negative evaluation of something, you then criticize yourself for being so negative. And, oh, I'm such a negative person, and I'm this and that. And then you go down and down and down and down, right? 'Cause I had a negative thought. Maybe that thing was negative. Maybe it was an accurate reflection of your reality. Um, but you then instead of using that information, you get into this spiral of criticizing yourself for having been negative. Um, so again, I think don't give yourself the expectation that, that you are going to be 100% positive all of the time. Just accept that you are human, and when you have a negative thought, some of those will be helpful to you actually, and some of those won't. And I think in some ways, that kind of wisdom is, is being able to hold the, as go back to the hold the more lightly thing-

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:04:38

       Yeah

    8. JSDr. Julie Smith1:04:38

       ... and then ask yourself, which ones do I want to spend time with? Is it gonna be helpful for me to spend time with this and go deeper with it and connect with it?

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:04:46

       Mm.

    10. JSDr. Julie Smith1:04:46

        Or is it something I can then, um, let go of and move on from?

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:04:50

        Um, we t- we've talked about, um, you know, if we move on to if, if we talk about, like, anxious thought patterns, um, we've, we've kind of alluded to the idea of catastrophizing.

14. 1:04:59 – 1:08:03

    What is personalising? (Dealing with catastrophizing)

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:04:59

       Um, there's a few other things that, um, I think you talk about in the book around, you know, personalizing, overgeneralizing, labeling. I wonder if we can just go through some of these and-

    2. JSDr. Julie Smith1:05:07

       Mm

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:05:08

       ... you know, for, for people who might not be, be familiar with them. So what-

    4. JSDr. Julie Smith1:05:10

       Yeah

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:05:10

       ... what is personalizing?

    6. JSDr. Julie Smith1:05:11

       So personalizing is that thing that we all do. I mean, all of these biases are human and normal, right? So they're not, um, pathological. They are your brain taking a quick shortcut to help you come up with, um, an explanation for what's going on, um, and possibly help your survival. Um, but do that really, really quickly. So, you know, the idea that your brain only has certain information to go on. So let's say you're, um, you're walking down the street and you see someone you know on the other side of the street. So you wave and you say hi, and they don't... You f- you feel like they've seen you, but they don't wave back, and then your brain goes straight to, oh, that thing I said the other day, it must have offended her.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:05:53

       Yeah.

    8. JSDr. Julie Smith1:05:53

       She must hate me. Everyone must be talking about me. I'm so awful. What was I thinking? How could I say something like that? And, and you go down this kind of spiral.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:06:01

       Yeah.

    10. JSDr. Julie Smith1:06:02

        And, and if you kind of get the bird's-eye view from that scenario, there, we could sit down here and scribble out 10,000 reasons why that person might not have smiled-

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:06:11

        Yeah

    12. JSDr. Julie Smith1:06:12

        ... um, but you go down this hole of kind of self-loathing. And so you're, you're taking an event that could have lots of explanations or could be fairly neutral, and you're making it about you, and often in a negative way that is kind of painful or hurtful to you. So you kind of personalize stuff.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:06:30

        Nice. Um, and I guess kind of understanding these is like, if you understand, oh, I'm, I'm personalizing there, or I'm catastrophizing, it's, it's again helpful-

    14. JSDr. Julie Smith1:06:37

        Yeah

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:06:37

        ... to hold the thought at arm's length.

    16. JSDr. Julie Smith1:06:39

        Yeah. And, and, and just being able to kind of even label a thought as personalizing is still one possible version of that reality, right? She might hate you.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:06:47

        Yeah.

    18. JSDr. Julie Smith1:06:47

        But also, uh, she might not offer her contact lenses then.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:06:50

        Yeah.

    20. JSDr. Julie Smith1:06:51

        You know? It ha- it happens. And so, um, it's acknowledging that when you've personalized, you can just be free to consider something else and, or what you're gonna do about it next. Um, or acknowledge that you tend to, um, go down that anxious route of thinking that the worst is happening, and it's down to you. And, and that is your brain doing a good job again. It's not like a fault in the system because, um, that is quite a big psychological threat. If you feel like your friendship group or your community is not safe or accepting of you, then- Historically, that is a risk to your survival. You know, we live in groups, we live in communities, so, you know, back in the day, if you were rejected by that community, your chances of survival were pretty drastically reduced. And, um, and probably still today, you know? The, the effects of loneliness are not to be snuffed at. So, um, it's your brain trying to keep you safe-

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:07:50

        Mm

    22. JSDr. Julie Smith1:07:50

        ... but it's not always the best reflection of reality. It's just the quickest, um, response from your brain that goes to the thing that's probably gonna help you to survive the most.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:08:02

        Nice.

15. 1:08:03 – 1:10:38

    What is a mental filter?

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:08:03

       What is a mental filter?

    2. JSDr. Julie Smith1:08:05

       So a mental... I did a video on this, actually-

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:08:07

       Okay

    4. JSDr. Julie Smith1:08:07

       ... where I used, like, a big tray, um, like a big colander-type thing, um, and I put kind of different sized beans in to show kind of different types of thoughts. And mental filter is often, um, y- you get this a lot with, um, depression, actually, where the good things that happen, for example, or thoughts about things that could actually make you feel a bit better tend to get filtered out-

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:08:28

       Mm

    6. JSDr. Julie Smith1:08:28

       ... and kind of disregarded and left. And then what you're left with to focus on is all the stuff that makes you feel worse and the negative stuff. So I think in the old, it's an old video now, but, um, I think in the video I used the example of, um, let's say you make a video and you're scanning through the comments, and you're going past hundreds of really positive comments-

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:08:47

       Yep

    8. JSDr. Julie Smith1:08:47

       ... and you're looking for that one person-

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:08:49

       Yep

    10. JSDr. Julie Smith1:08:49

        ... that doesn't like you. And y- and so you're filtering out, you know, uh, on the screen, you're filtering out all the positive thoughts that could help you to feel good about your content-

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:08:58

        Yeah

    12. JSDr. Julie Smith1:08:58

        ... and then you zoom in on that one thing that, that makes you feel worse.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:09:02

        Yep.

    14. JSDr. Julie Smith1:09:02

        And, um, and I did that myself. I noticed in the early days where I was kind of looking through comments and I was kind of scanning quickly through these really nice comments, looking for anyone who, you know, didn't like it. Um, noticing that was a mental filter in the moment just allowed me to go, "No, we're not doing this."

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:09:20

        Mm.

    16. JSDr. Julie Smith1:09:20

        "Okay, put the phone away." And so it's actually m- you know, labeling it and s- noticing what bias it is is actually more powerful than you think, 'cause it just allows you to kind of trip out of the-

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:09:29

        Yeah

    18. JSDr. Julie Smith1:09:29

        ... um, downward spiral.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:09:31

        That's so good. I was, uh, I was interviewed on a, on a big podcast recently, and the interview, in- interview came out about a week ago, and I find myself going back to that YouTube video and looking at the comments and sorting by newest, 'cause I, 'cause I've read all the comments on that video, and I'm like, "Uh, you know, I'm so curious." And I find myself doing this as well. I'm like, "Yeah, nice comment, nice comment." I'm like, "Oh, that, that's the one."

    20. JSDr. Julie Smith1:09:48

        [laughs]

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:09:48

        And I saw one last night where it said something like, um, "Oh, you know, Ali Abdaal is just a scammer," or something like that. And I was like, "That's the one." And then I realized, wait a minute, like, I've just skipped past, like, 18, "Oh my God, this interview was incredible. Ali's so articulate."

    22. JSDr. Julie Smith1:10:00

        [laughs]

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:10:00

        "Such a humble guy. What a nice guy. Oh my God, so helpful. Best interview ever." And I just fo- fixated on the one that was like, "Ali Abdaal's a scammer."

    24. JSDr. Julie Smith1:10:06

        This is what I'm gonna think about for the next 48 hours.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:10:09

        Yep. [laughs]

    26. JSDr. Julie Smith1:10:10

        [laughs]

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:10:10

        The old, the old mental filter.

    28. JSDr. Julie Smith1:10:11

        Yeah.

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:10:12

        Um, again, just hav- I guess having that terminology to be like, and the visual of just like, "Oh, okay, yeah"

    30. JSDr. Julie Smith1:10:16

        Yeah.
16. 1:10:38 – 1:17:01

    The difference between stress and anxiety

    1. JSDr. Julie Smith1:10:38

       I, I talk about this in, in the book actually. I think they're terms that, again, online get used sort of interchangeably, probably to mean similar or the same things. And we do have that one stress response, right? So we have that kind of threat system in our body. Um, and we only have the one kind of survival response, that sort of, you know, fight or flight mode and stuff that people talk about. But the way that we exper- or the way that we conceptualize that experience, I think depends on the words we use for it. So, I don't know, if I was going to give an example, let's say, um, let's say you, you, you've got a busy day at work, but you need to post, I don't know, your passport off or something, and it's gotta be done today, and you've got a gap in your meetings of half an hour, and you know you can get to the post office, quickly post it and get back. And then you get to the post office, and there's this huge queue, and you're stood in the queue and you suddenly start to kind of feel that heart pounding, you're a bit sweating, and what feels like stress.

    2. AAAli Abdaal1:11:39

       Mm.

    3. JSDr. Julie Smith1:11:40

       And that's your body kind of creating this increased sense of sort of alertness to say, "Do you know what? We might need to reprioritize here, because we might not be able to meet all the demands placed on us. We might not get back for that meeting."

    4. AAAli Abdaal1:11:52

       Yep.

    5. JSDr. Julie Smith1:11:52

       And then you're trying to work out, what's most important here? Is it posting this or getting to that meeting?

    6. AAAli Abdaal1:11:57

       Mm.

    7. JSDr. Julie Smith1:11:57

       And you might call that stress if that was it, if it was sort of, y- you know, what demands can I meet? You might call it anxiety if you know that you're now not gonna get back for that meeting, but your boss tends to humiliate people that turn up late.

    8. AAAli Abdaal1:12:13

       Mm.

    9. JSDr. Julie Smith1:12:13

       And so you're now anxious about public humiliation-

    10. AAAli Abdaal1:12:16

        Yep

    11. JSDr. Julie Smith1:12:16

        ... um, which is more anxiety than stress. So it's really about kind of the way we conceptualize it, I think, and, and often we term things anxiety when it's sort of more threat based or that, that kind of feeling, but-

    12. AAAli Abdaal1:12:28

        Yeah

    13. JSDr. Julie Smith1:12:28

        ... but y- people use those terms really interchangeably these days, I think.

    14. AAAli Abdaal1:12:32

        Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, as you, as you were describing that, I was, the, the, there was the, uh, I think it happened la- uh, was it last week or the week before, where, where often if, if my girlfriend and I are going out to dinner and we're meeting someone there or we have, like, a reservation at a restaurant for a certain time, she'll take ages to get ready.

    15. JSDr. Julie Smith1:12:46

        [laughs]

    16. AAAli Abdaal1:12:47

        And I will find myself being like, sort of feeling the stress response to be like, "Come on."

    17. JSDr. Julie Smith1:12:51

        Yep.

    18. AAAli Abdaal1:12:52

        Like, "It's not that hard."

    19. JSDr. Julie Smith1:12:53

        [laughs]

    20. AAAli Abdaal1:12:54

        Like, "You look great already. Like, why does it take you, like, what the hell? What, w- w- w- what even is that stuff you're putting on? Like, come on."

    21. JSDr. Julie Smith1:12:59

        [laughs]

    22. AAAli Abdaal1:12:59

        And I, I, I often notice that, like, oh, I'm feel- I'm feeling stressed right now. That's fine.

    23. JSDr. Julie Smith1:13:04

        Yeah.

    24. AAAli Abdaal1:13:04

        Like, I can just, I can just let it go, and I, uh, I'll, I'll think, "What's the worst that's gonna happen? We're gonna be late for the restaurant. That's fine."

    25. JSDr. Julie Smith1:13:11

        Yeah.

    26. AAAli Abdaal1:13:12

        "What if they cancel our table? Great, we'll just go somewhere else." And then I'll be like-

    27. JSDr. Julie Smith1:13:15

        Yeah

    28. AAAli Abdaal1:13:15

        ... "You know what? It's fine. I'll just read a book while she-"

    29. JSDr. Julie Smith1:13:17

        [laughs]

    30. AAAli Abdaal1:13:18

        "... taking ages to get ready-
17. 1:17:01 – 1:23:13

    Avoiding burnout with balance

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:17:01

       Let's talk about burnout. Um, but we were just talking before we resumed or while we were grabbing coffee, um, this idea that, you know, both of us have as content creators I guess where there's this sort of almost feels like a hamster wheel sometimes of like-

    2. JSDr. Julie Smith1:17:14

       Yeah

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:17:14

       ... more content is always better because, like, the thing is growing and you don't wanna fuck things up because the thing is growing and it's like, okay, well let's just triple our output 'cause we might as well and, like, the thing is growing and-

    4. JSDr. Julie Smith1:17:22

       Yeah

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:17:23

       ... all of this sort of the desire for more and more and more, which then gets us to sort of in the direction of, of burnout. But I wonder what's, what's been your-

    6. JSDr. Julie Smith1:17:30

       Mm

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:17:30

       ... experience of balancing more with, like, taking care of yourself and having a decent work-life balance?

    8. JSDr. Julie Smith1:17:36

       Oh, that's been a massive learning curve for me and it's something that I've just had to learn from experience, and I think most people do, don't they? Because, you know, we all preach it, um, but then we all end up going through it anyway and, um, I never imagined, I don't think anyone imagines that being a content creator, um, is difficult [laughs] until you try to do it.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:17:54

       Mm.

    10. JSDr. Julie Smith1:17:55

        And there's something about it is a bottomless pit that will take from you as much as you're willing to give. And, and sometimes even when things are going well, that the demand increases, right? So you kind of you, y- it's great that it's going well, but also then, uh, when we first started, for example, you know, each video we put on seemed to be doing better than the last, and it was all good, but we felt like, okay, well, this will switch off at some point. It might last a week, it might last a month-

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:18:24

        Yeah

    12. JSDr. Julie Smith1:18:24

        ... and then, and then it will be that thing we did once. So while it's hot, let's just go for it. And, and so we kind of sort of worked in a totally unsustainable way because we thought it was gonna all switch off at some point, and it didn't. And, um, so the idea of doing this for a month was, okay, let's just get through this month, and then it's two, and then it's six, and then it's couple of years and, um, a- and that's tough. That, that's, you know, um, at some point you have to kind of step back and go, "This isn't sustainable, so w- what can be sustainable?" But the process of working in a way that's unsustainable, it's then really difficult to step back and, and take something away or do less for the sake of a healthier life.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:19:14

        Yeah.

    14. JSDr. Julie Smith1:19:14

        Um, it, I think it, psychologically it's really difficult to do, isn't it? To say, "Sure, I'm not gonna make a video every day."

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:19:19

        Mm.

    16. JSDr. Julie Smith1:19:19

        "I'm gonna make three videos a week-"

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:19:21

        Yeah

    18. JSDr. Julie Smith1:19:21

        ... "and then enjoy the rest of my life." Or, you know, um, and I guess you could apply that to other, l- you know, lots of other jobs or working for yourself, that kind of thing. Um, I think psychologically it's quite difficult to do.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:19:32

        Mm.

    20. JSDr. Julie Smith1:19:33

        Um.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:19:33

        It's almost a sense that like, "Oh, I, um, I could film-" A video a day, but the fact that I'm choosing not to means that I am lazy-

    22. JSDr. Julie Smith1:19:40

        Mm-hmm

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:19:40

        ... and that I am just not a hard worker, and like what's wrong with me, and like am I just a softie or am I not disciplined enough or like-

    24. JSDr. Julie Smith1:19:46

        Yeah

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:19:47

        ... all of this stuff.

    26. JSDr. Julie Smith1:19:47

        And the fact that, you know, all these platforms are- are made to be just as addictive to the creator as they are to the consumer, right? So you know, it's that possibility, isn't it?

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:19:56

        Mm.

    28. JSDr. Julie Smith1:19:56

        Like, what if you made a video, and what if it did really well? Um, you know, what if it led to something or you, whatever. The, you know, the all those kind of senses of possibility in your mind that, um, that draw you into doing more and more and more, um, often to the detriment of, you know-

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:20:13

        Mm

    30. JSDr. Julie Smith1:20:13

        ... some other thing that you love doing in your life or that's important to you.
18. 1:23:13 – 1:33:15

    How do you detach yourself from numbers as a measure of success?

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:23:13

       place to... You know-

    2. JSDr. Julie Smith1:23:14

       Mm

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:23:14

       ... I've spoken to a lot of book authors who, you know, a lot of content creators will peg their self-worth to their subscriber count, their follower account, and their last 10 view average or something.

    4. JSDr. Julie Smith1:23:22

       Yeah.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:23:22

       A lot of authors will peg their self-worth to how many copies they've sold and-

    6. JSDr. Julie Smith1:23:25

       Yeah

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:23:25

       ... whether they've hit the bestseller list or not, like-

    8. JSDr. Julie Smith1:23:27

       Do you know, I j- I, I seriously think having children has helped hugely with that.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:23:32

       Mm.

    10. JSDr. Julie Smith1:23:32

        Because when I think o- my daughter said to me once, she said, "How does it feel to have this million, you know, this many million followers?" And um, and I kind of looked at her and I thought I'd, I... For a moment she was probably kind of looking at that in a way that I didn't want her to look at it, and- and I didn't want her to feel any less for not having that.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:23:54

        Yeah.

    12. JSDr. Julie Smith1:23:54

        And- and so I was very clear that it means absolutely nothing.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:23:58

        Mm.

    14. JSDr. Julie Smith1:23:58

        It really doesn't. And, um, while it's been fun at times, um, if- if I accidentally delete the account, I'm still me. Nothing's really different. And, um, my day-to-day life would be different, right? I'd have more free time. But, um [laughs] uh, but yeah, I'm- I'm still, I'm no more or less of me having that or not having that.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:24:20

        Mm.

    16. JSDr. Julie Smith1:24:20

        And- and it could all switch off tomorrow, right? So I could say something, uh, online that made everybody hate me and- and it would all be over. Um, but I'm lucky enough that I think it started late enough in life that I know what's most important to me-

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:24:36

        Mm

    18. JSDr. Julie Smith1:24:36

        ... and I know it's all kind of a bit silly, and, um, that, you know, people unfollow me every day, and that's okay. I'm okay with that. But maybe that's also a position of privilege that because my husband kind of looks at that stuff and- and the analytics that I don't have to. That-

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:24:51

        Mm

    20. JSDr. Julie Smith1:24:52

        ... as a business, obviously, you know, people need to do that. And then I think once you're in it, it's almost really difficult to not become attached to those numbers.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:25:02

        Yeah.

    22. JSDr. Julie Smith1:25:02

        So yeah, it's probably sort of privileged ignorance for me. [laughs]

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:25:08

        Mm. It's a good way of putting it.

    24. JSDr. Julie Smith1:25:08

        Just floating along nicely-

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:25:09

        Yeah

    26. JSDr. Julie Smith1:25:09

        ... making a few random videos.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:25:10

        Like I f- I don't, I don't look at YouTube analytics anymore either. I just sort of-

    28. JSDr. Julie Smith1:25:13

        Do you not?

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:25:14

        ... I, like, you know, Tintin, our YouTube producer, is amazing, and our editing team is amazing.

    30. JSDr. Julie Smith1:25:18

        Yeah.
19. 1:33:15 – 1:35:26

    Emotion coping skills (Dialectical behaviour therapy)

    1. JSDr. Julie Smith1:33:15

       Mm. So in, uh, dialectical behavior therapy, so DBT, which is, um, a year-long therapy, um, they teach emotion coping skills and one of those emotion coping... So emotion coping skills is split up into sort of different segments depending on what they're needed for. So within sort of, um, uh, emotion regulation skills, you would also have distress tolerance skills. So you have emotion regulation skills are the skills that you use to keep your emotions fairly balanced.

    2. AAAli Abdaal1:33:48

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JSDr. Julie Smith1:33:49

       But then, what if something happens and your emotions are kind of out of whack or they're really intense? Then you need distress tolerance skills. So how do you get through highly distressing, disturbing periods of your life safely? Um, and you... It- that's the moments when it is all hit the fan. It, it, you know, you are overwhelmed, you don't know what to do, and you've just gotta get through.

    4. AAAli Abdaal1:34:13

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JSDr. Julie Smith1:34:13

       Um, so self-soothing is one of those skills. So um, that's when you're teaching people not to try to squash the feeling or do the, the, the thing that's gonna make it disappear right now, but you're gonna regret later. Um, but to look after yourself through the discomfort. So um, I think I did a video on this a long time ago about y- doing, um, like self-soothing boxes. So we'll often do that in DBT. We'll get people to just get a shoebox or something, and they'll, they'll put in there lots of things that help them to soothe their way through the most painful moments of their lives safely.

    6. AAAli Abdaal1:34:47

       Mm.

    7. JSDr. Julie Smith1:34:48

       So it's the idea that it's kind of mindfulness, so you, you use all of your senses to, um, to help create that feeling of safety, and that's really what you wanna do is bring a sense of safeness to the moment. So um, it might be um, a piece of music that, that you know kind of generates certain feelings for you, or it might be a perfume that you associate with, uh, love and safety, like, um, your mom's perfume or, um, lavender or something like that. Or, um, it might be something that you can taste that you enjoy that kind of brings you to the present or lots of different things. So you can use all your different senses. So you can put different things in a box to kind of soothe you through difficult moments.

    8. AAAli Abdaal1:35:25

       Hmm.

20. 1:35:26 – 1:36:42

    The 3 types of burnout

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:35:26

       That's nice. Um, so we were talking about burnout, or was... Well, I want to talk about burnout. Um, one of the-

    2. JSDr. Julie Smith1:35:32

       Mm

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:35:32

       ... so the final three chapters of my book, Feel, Feel-Good Productivity-

    4. JSDr. Julie Smith1:35:36

       Mm

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:35:36

       ... link, link down below. Um, [laughs] I need to get more comfortable doing the plugs. [laughs]

    6. JSDr. Julie Smith1:35:41

       [laughs] Yeah, I'll do it.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:35:41

       Um, final, final three chapters, we talk about burnout, and the way that I've sort of looked l- looking at the research and stuff, framed things, is that there are kind of 3 types of burnout-

    8. JSDr. Julie Smith1:35:52

       Mm

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:35:52

       ... that we have different strategies for dealing with. There is, um, let me see if I can remember this. There's, uh, overexertion burnout, where you're just working too hard and not taking a break and on, on the road to burnout there. There is depletion burnout, um, which is where we're not kind of resting enough and we sort of, our energy's depleted. And then there's misalignment burnout, where we're, like, doing the thing, but, like, it's not quite aligned to, whoops, it's not quite aligned to where, like, our values, where we actually wanna go. And so we end up in this phase where, like, life should be good, but actually you feel a sense of burnout because you're doing something that's, it d- that, that doesn't feel like it is fulfilling you or-

    10. JSDr. Julie Smith1:36:24

        Mm

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:36:24

        ... something. To what extent does that vibe with your experience of burnout?

    12. JSDr. Julie Smith1:36:29

        Oh, hugely. Um, the, the misalignment is, um, a big one in the, um, uh, one of the, the skills in the book that I do on a fairly regular basis, probably every few months, is the, the

21. 1:36:42 – 1:41:33

    Values check-ins are life changing

    1. JSDr. Julie Smith1:36:42

       values check-ins.

    2. AAAli Abdaal1:36:43

       Mm.

    3. JSDr. Julie Smith1:36:43

       'Cause I find a lot of people who, um, come along to therapy and don't... Can't, can't articulate really what the problem is.

    4. AAAli Abdaal1:36:51

       Mm.

    5. JSDr. Julie Smith1:36:51

       They kind of say, "I don't really know what's going on. It just feels blah."

    6. AAAli Abdaal1:36:56

       Mm.

    7. JSDr. Julie Smith1:36:56

       You know, nothing feels sort of, um, meaningful or, um, I don't, you know, I don't feel satisfied with my life. Often, those situations become really, um, clear once you do a values check-in. So it's often when people have been pulled away from the things that m- matter to them and mean a lot to them by other things in life.

    8. AAAli Abdaal1:37:17

       Mm.

    9. JSDr. Julie Smith1:37:18

       So, and it's a really simple task. You'll often get- You can do it in different ways, but you can just get pen and paper and you, you write out the different areas of your life. So you might have, like, family, um, intimate relationships, parenting, friendships, health, career, lifelong learning, creativity, whatever. Put them all on the page and you kind of, um, ask yourself, what are the things that matter to me most in this area of my life? So not what you want to happen to you, but how you want to show up in that area of your life, good or bad times. So what you want to bring and what you want to contribute, the attitude you want to have, that kind of thing. You might have a few words or sentences, bullet points, and then you can kind of rate, okay, out of 10, how important are these values to me in this area of my life? And then rate it again on how much you feel you're living in line with that at the moment-

    10. AAAli Abdaal1:38:10

        Mm

    11. JSDr. Julie Smith1:38:10

        ... so in the last couple of weeks. And, and then you get these two scores, and you get to kind of look across the page, all the different areas of your life. And it's a really good indication of where to kind of direct your focus next.

    12. AAAli Abdaal1:38:23

        Mm.

    13. JSDr. Julie Smith1:38:23

        Because if you've rated something as really highly important to you, but then your rating for how much you're living in line with that is, like, 2 out of 10, there's a disparity there that needs your attention. And it might, you know, it's not, um, it's not a path for, like, self-loathing, it's just, it, 'cause often it's because something e- else has pulled you away from it. You know, you might be doing really well with another area of your life. And, and it's not that you can do them all perfectly all of the time, it's that you probably have to, you know, spin from one to another at each point. You know, you can't, um, you know, uh, I guess the work/parenting thing is a, a really obvious one, that it's really difficult to kind of be the parent that you want to be all of the time, and have the career that you want to have all of the time.

    14. AAAli Abdaal1:39:07

        Yeah.

    15. JSDr. Julie Smith1:39:07

        And so there's a, a sort of, um, ping-ponging between the two. But just doing one of those exercises, if you're not feeling, um, sort of satisfied or if you're feeling burnt out, it's often an indication that you've just sort of been shifted away from something, and you're not okay with that.

    16. AAAli Abdaal1:39:26

        Mm-hmm.

    17. JSDr. Julie Smith1:39:26

        So it's a si- sign to shift back.

    18. AAAli Abdaal1:39:28

        Nice. So, like, so you've got the different areas of life, and so in that, like for example, in the family/parenting category-

    19. JSDr. Julie Smith1:39:36

        Mm

    20. AAAli Abdaal1:39:36

        ... are you asking yourself, like, what are the values that are most important to me? Like, being there for my kids, and, like-

    21. JSDr. Julie Smith1:39:41

        Mm

    22. AAAli Abdaal1:39:41

        ... picking them up from school and stuff.

    23. JSDr. Julie Smith1:39:43

        Yeah.

    24. AAAli Abdaal1:39:43

        And then you rate how important those things are to you, and then how much you're actually living-

    25. JSDr. Julie Smith1:39:46

        Yeah

    26. AAAli Abdaal1:39:46

        ... out that.

    27. JSDr. Julie Smith1:39:46

        That, that was a, that was a big thing for me, um, as everything got busier and busier with all this stuff, um, that I could feel myself just feeling a bit overwhelmed, and, and sort of had a look at it on the page. And yeah, being present as a parent was really important to me. But I'd obviously spent a long time locked in the office re- writing the book and, and then doing all these podcasts and stuff. And, and, and I recognized that I, I needed to shift back to being present more of the time to, to be okay with that balance. And, um, but I, I think I've talked about this before, that I f- I think often people have this misconception that balance is, like, finding the perfect sweet spot, where you've just like, you know, won the game or whatever.

    28. AAAli Abdaal1:40:25

        Yeah.

    29. JSDr. Julie Smith1:40:25

        And you, you know, you've got it all right and everything's good in your life. And I just don't think it ever happens like that. I think, you know, if you're sort of on a balancing beam, uh, the process of balancing is a constant shifting from, like, one side to another, and as you notice you're tilting too much one way, you kind of shift to tilt the other way and counterbalance. And, and, and I just think life is a bit like that.

    30. AAAli Abdaal1:40:46

        Mm.
22. 1:41:33 – 1:43:29

    The ideal day and week

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:41:33

       And I also have in my mind, like, what does, what does the ideal week look like?

    2. JSDr. Julie Smith1:41:36

       Mm.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:41:36

       And, like, in an ideal week I'd like to do, I don't know, one or two date nights, or, like, one dinner with friends on average. I'd like to see my mum and grandma once a week, and, like, go to the gym three times a week.

    4. JSDr. Julie Smith1:41:44

       Yeah.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:41:44

       And by mapping that out on, like, a Google Calendar that I call my Ideal Week Calendar, I can just see that, okay, cool, like, this is, this is my ideal kind of life. And obviously I end up n- like, never actually living my ideal week. But just knowing what it is and, like, helps me-

    6. JSDr. Julie Smith1:42:00

       Yeah

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:42:00

       ... be like, okay, you know, for the last two weeks I've been to the gym, like, once a week. Let's just do a little rebalancing there because-

    8. JSDr. Julie Smith1:42:06

       Yeah

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:42:06

       ... actually I do know that this is important to me, and it's a thing that I want to do, therefore, let's do the thing. So I really like the idea of sort of like balancing-

    10. JSDr. Julie Smith1:42:12

        Mm

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:42:12

        ... this beam and constantly shifting and adjusting.

    12. JSDr. Julie Smith1:42:15

        I've always liked your idea of the kind of the ideal week and the ideal day and that kind of thing.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:42:19

        Mm.

    14. JSDr. Julie Smith1:42:19

        And, uh, 'cause y- you can kind of aim towards it. And, and it's key, isn't it, to be okay with not, uh, creating it in full-

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:42:28

        Yeah

    16. JSDr. Julie Smith1:42:28

        ... um, but, but always aiming towards, always having an ideal to aim towards. But also then shifting into kind of gratitude for the week that you ended up having-

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:42:41

        Yeah

    18. JSDr. Julie Smith1:42:41

        ... that, that-

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:42:43

        Yeah

    20. JSDr. Julie Smith1:42:43

        ... as, as life goes, it, you probably could have had a worse week. W-

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:42:47

        Yeah

    22. JSDr. Julie Smith1:42:47

        ... you know, even though you didn't go to the gym five times or-

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:42:49

        Mm

    24. JSDr. Julie Smith1:42:49

        ... whatever it was. So, um, it's a really nice mental shift to sort of aim towards that ideal week-

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:42:54

        Mm

    26. JSDr. Julie Smith1:42:54

        ... and to have the chance to do that even. You know? Um, or to aim towards an ideal week within the limitations of someone's life.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:43:02

        Yeah.

    28. JSDr. Julie Smith1:43:03

        So it might be that currently you hate your job, but your ideal week would then be, um, to be doing some night course in something else, because that's part of your mission to get out of this job you hate, or-

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:43:13

        Yeah

    30. JSDr. Julie Smith1:43:14

        ... uh, whatever that is. And so your idea of the ideal week would change as time went on as well, wouldn't it? So, um, uh, the idea of kind of keep coming back to it and, um, yeah.
23. 1:43:29 – 1:46:40

    Treating work like a marathon - keeping it sustainable

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:43:29

       a question from Nurgisa in our audience, who says, "When you study or work for long periods of mind," oh, sorry, "When you study or work for long periods of time, what are some ways in which you can take care of your mental health?"

    2. JSDr. Julie Smith1:43:40

       Um, when you're, when you're studying for a long period of time?

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:43:42

       Yeah, or studying, yeah, or working for long periods of time.

    4. JSDr. Julie Smith1:43:45

       Okay. Um, I guess to not do it for long periods of time. [laughs]

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:43:51

       [laughs]

    6. JSDr. Julie Smith1:43:52

       To take breaks is, uh, kind of obvious, isn't it? But, but it is, the reason people say it is because it is the right answer.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:43:58

       Yeah.

    8. JSDr. Julie Smith1:43:58

       You know, that, um, i- if, if you've got a stre- and that's what, you know, that's why I learned the hard way on, when I began, that I was working as if I wasn't gonna do it for a long stretch of time, and it became a long stretch of time. So I realized that wasn't possible.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:44:13

       Yeah.

    10. JSDr. Julie Smith1:44:13

        Um, and now I've made that shift to having a much better balance, um, and adding in- Other parts of life like, you know, socializing or exercising or-

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:44:24

        Yeah

    12. JSDr. Julie Smith1:44:25

        ... taking a break and sleeping and stuff like that. Um, so you kind of, it's, it's acknowledging, okay, if this is a marathon, what do I need to put in along the way that's gonna ensure I get to the end of this? And for different people that might be different things. Um, but generally includes, you know, the basics like social contact, good food-

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:44:46

        Mm

    14. JSDr. Julie Smith1:44:46

        ... um, moving your body and sleeping. If you can get those down, you're more likely to get to the end. Um-

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:44:53

        Yeah

    16. JSDr. Julie Smith1:44:53

        ... if you're sacrificing on any of those, it's gonna make it much harder to get to the end.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:44:58

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JSDr. Julie Smith1:44:58

        So, um, might sound like an obvious answer, but I think those, those basics or the things that we call the basics are the first things we let slide when we're not doing so good.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:45:09

        Yeah.

    20. JSDr. Julie Smith1:45:09

        You know, if you've got a big project on, well, okay, I'll just get these four hours sleep and then I'll crack on and I'll-

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:45:15

        Yeah

    22. JSDr. Julie Smith1:45:15

        ... and I'll do that again tomorrow and, um, I'll just grab a takeaway and I'll ju- you know. It's so easy to just, um, see those things as, uh, negotiable I think. Um, so-

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:45:27

        Yeah

    24. JSDr. Julie Smith1:45:27

        ... that, yeah, I think the best thing you can do is prioritize those and recognize how much they impact your ability to keep going and your stamina.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:45:35

        Mm.

    26. JSDr. Julie Smith1:45:37

        Um, so that you can not do them, not do them perfectly, but just keep aiming towards them. Bit like your ideal day.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:45:43

        Yeah. Yeah. I, I really like the idea of think- tre- tre- treating things like marathons 'cause I think, you know, one, one question I sometimes ask is that if, if the way I lived, I lived today was how I would li- I live every day-

    28. JSDr. Julie Smith1:45:57

        Mm

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:45:57

        ... how do I feel about that? And if the answer to, to, for too many days in a row is like, "That would be terrible," then I think, okay, cool. This is, this, you know, it's time for a, for a readjustment.

    30. JSDr. Julie Smith1:46:06

        Mm.
24. 1:46:40 – 1:50:30

    Focusing on the basics and rules that force balance

    1. JSDr. Julie Smith1:46:40

       something like sleep, the impact is almost instant, right?

    2. AAAli Abdaal1:46:44

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JSDr. Julie Smith1:46:44

       You, it's, the n- very next day you will feel better if you've had more of it.

    4. AAAli Abdaal1:46:48

       Yeah.

    5. JSDr. Julie Smith1:46:48

       So, um, uh, it's, it's not like, um, you have to wait a long time for the results of that. So it is, it is a great thing to kind of prioritize if, if you notice, and it's prob- it is one of the first things we'll look at. You know, if someone is returning to therapy, for example, 'cause they notice their mood is slipping or they're, you know, going downhill, you get those basics back on track.

    6. AAAli Abdaal1:47:11

       Yeah.

    7. JSDr. Julie Smith1:47:11

       And sometimes that's enough because they are so powerful. You know, they're the reason that, you know, things like, uh, your ability to move, sleep, eat well, and have social connection, they're weapons of war, right?

    8. AAAli Abdaal1:47:23

       Mm-hmm.

    9. JSDr. Julie Smith1:47:23

       You know, if you've got a prisoner of war, the way you break them is by messing around with those things. So let's not do it voluntarily to ourselves every day.

    10. AAAli Abdaal1:47:31

        Yeah.

    11. JSDr. Julie Smith1:47:31

        Um, let's just keep trying to, you know, if you've had a few late nights, let's just put an A1 in there and see if we can kind of-

    12. AAAli Abdaal1:47:38

        Mm

    13. JSDr. Julie Smith1:47:38

        ... redirect.

    14. AAAli Abdaal1:47:40

        Yeah. I find that for me, having like clear rules in place for stuff is like remarkably helpful. Like knowing that Thursday night is always a date night. Or for example, knowing that, okay, I am not going to arrange any meetings before like 10:00 AM or so, you know, thing-

    15. JSDr. Julie Smith1:48:00

        Mm

    16. AAAli Abdaal1:48:00

        ... things like that where I know that if I actually stuck to these rules, it would almost force some kind of balance in my life-

    17. JSDr. Julie Smith1:48:06

        Mm

    18. AAAli Abdaal1:48:06

        ... so that I don't have to think about it. So I think about it and someone messages me and it's like, oh, the calendar's full, but the only time is like a 7:00 AM breakfast. I know in that moment I'll be tempted to be like, hell yeah. But I know that when it comes down to it, I'll get five hours of sleep that night-

    19. JSDr. Julie Smith1:48:17

        Yeah

    20. AAAli Abdaal1:48:17

        ... and then that will not be good-

    21. JSDr. Julie Smith1:48:18

        Yeah

    22. AAAli Abdaal1:48:18

        ... in the long, in the long run.

    23. JSDr. Julie Smith1:48:19

        Yeah.

    24. AAAli Abdaal1:48:20

        So I, I, I like to keep an eye on these basics and just think, okay, like what are the, what are the rules?

    25. JSDr. Julie Smith1:48:25

        Yeah.

    26. AAAli Abdaal1:48:26

        And now that I have the privilege of having a team, uh, and run my own business [laughs] it's like, cool, how do I automate the, how do I automate the adherence to the rules so that I don't have to think about it?

    27. JSDr. Julie Smith1:48:36

        Yeah.

    28. AAAli Abdaal1:48:37

        Like asking my assistant to be like, "Can you just make sure the calendar, there are always three gym sessions? And while we're there, can we book a personal trainer for them so that I feel compelled to go? And while we're there, can we just not have any meetings after like 11:00 AM?" Or like whatever the-

    29. JSDr. Julie Smith1:48:47

        Yeah

    30. AAAli Abdaal1:48:47

        ... whatever the thing might be.
25. 1:50:30 – 1:54:45

    How to approach a person with mental health issues in a tactful way?

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:50:30

       in our podcast community, uh, asked around how, like, if someone is, if someone else that they know is, if, if someone that we know is struggling with their mental health or seems to be struggling with their mental health or seems to be struggling in some way-

    2. JSDr. Julie Smith1:50:41

       Yeah

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:50:41

       ... what are some ways to approach that situation in a way that's, like, tactful and nice and not too, like, getting involved in other people's business if-

    4. JSDr. Julie Smith1:50:47

       Yeah

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:50:48

       ... they don't want you to?

    6. JSDr. Julie Smith1:50:48

       Um, I, I think the, the, the sort of trap that we tend to fall into is, is often for the most well-meaning people because we, we desperately don't want to say the wrong thing, so we say nothing.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:51:04

       Yeah.

    8. JSDr. Julie Smith1:51:05

       And, uh, we maybe even avoid that person, right? We try to grace them w- grace them with our absence, right? And say, "I'll just stay away 'cause they've got a lot going on and, and I'll probably put my foot in it and say the wrong thing," or... Um, and actually, mostly what people don't need is someone to come along and solve an unsolvable problem. They need some human connection and someone to be there.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:51:29

       Mm.

    10. JSDr. Julie Smith1:51:29

        And, um, and to have their back and be by their side and show that it matters to them if they're not okay. Um, but often we, we don't buy into that as helpful. We think we need to step in and solve the problem. Um, so, you know, often when people are saying, you know, "What should I do? What should I say?" And, and it's, it's less about what you do and what you say, and it's more about how you make that person feel. So, and not by taking away their distressed feelings, but by adding in a sense of connection and, um, letting them know that someone has their back and cares for them-

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:52:11

        Mm

    12. JSDr. Julie Smith1:52:11

        ... is hugely supportive. So, you know, if I'm, if I'm working with someone who is grieving, for example, you can't take grief away. No one can, um, you know, magic you out of that. Um, but often those people will say that the, the friends that they val- not that they value the most, but that have been most helpful to them aren't necessarily even the ones that come along and start talking about the grief and, and opening everything up. They can also be the friends who come along and say, "Let's go for a dog walk once a week together." And, and on that, in that time, maybe you discuss the, the latest show you've been watching or, um, you know, some comedy thing that you went to see or, you know, a c- complete distraction from your pain.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:52:59

        Mm.

    14. JSDr. Julie Smith1:53:00

        That's just as valuable. If you're that person, right, if you're the friend who doesn't know how to open up those things and talk about them, it's okay to, uh, talk about something else. Um, and be... You know, sometimes people can be so grateful for that.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:53:13

        Mm.

    16. JSDr. Julie Smith1:53:14

        Um, but you're still connecting with that person.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:53:16

        Yeah.

    18. JSDr. Julie Smith1:53:16

        So you're still saying, "Good times or bad, I'm next to you, and we'll walk through it together." So, um, but equally it's, it's okay to just ask that person, you know, "How, how can I support you? I re- it, it really matters to me if you're not okay, and I want to be here for you. I have no idea how to do that right, so let me know. If, if I'm getting it wrong, steer me in the right direction for what you need, and I won't take it personally. I'll just take your direction." And then you've already kind of just named the elephant in the room and, and, and your own insecurities about how to help. You know, "I'm, I'm really scared about saying the wrong thing, so let me know if I, if I do that, and I will adjust."

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:53:56

        Mm.

    20. JSDr. Julie Smith1:53:56

        And, and it just takes the fear un- out of the whole situation. Then one can name what it is. Um, and then you can just get to work with connecting with someone, and, and then support comes out of that, I think. You don't have to be the therapist.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:54:10

        Nice. I think that's a great place to end this. Thank you so much.

    22. JSDr. Julie Smith1:54:13

        Thanks for having me.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:54:15

        All right, so that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are gonna be linked down in the video description or in the show notes, depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform, then do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in full HD or 4K on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That would be awesome. And if you enjoyed this episode, you might like to check out this episode here as well, which links in with some of the stuff that we talked about in the episode. So thanks for watching. Uh, do hit the subscribe button if you aren't already, and I'll see you next time. Bye-bye.

Episode duration: 1:54:45